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Knicks Morning News (2022.12.09)

  • Tom Thibodeau starting to ‘play the kids’ as Knicks fans have hoped – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 10:39:00 PM

    Tom Thibodeau starting to ‘play the kids’ as Knicks fans have hoped  New York Post

  • Knicks lose Toppin for at least two weeks – Rome Sentinel
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 8:33:00 PM

    Knicks lose Toppin for at least two weeks  Rome Sentinel

  • Do Knicks Have Cam Reddish Trade Partners? – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 8:10:02 PM

    Do Knicks Have Cam Reddish Trade Partners?  Sports IllustratedKnicks’ Cam Reddish says he hasn’t requested a trade, doesn’t know why he’s out of rotation  CBS SportsLakers and Knicks have talked about potential Cam Reddish trade  Yahoo SportsWhat I’m hearing about Immanuel Quickley, Cam Reddish and Evan Fournier trade scenarios  The AthleticTrade Ideas to Save the New York Knicks’ Season  Bleacher ReportView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Knicks’ Derrick Rose: Moves outside of rotation – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 6:26:25 PM

    Knicks’ Derrick Rose: Moves outside of rotation  CBS Sports

  • Obi Toppin injury: Knicks forward out 2-3 weeks with non-displaced fracture in right knee – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 4:56:35 PM

    Obi Toppin injury: Knicks forward out 2-3 weeks with non-displaced fracture in right knee  CBS Sports

  • Knicks Lose Obi Toppin For At Least 2-3 Weeks After MRI – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 4:03:51 PM

    Knicks Lose Obi Toppin For At Least 2-3 Weeks After MRI  Sports IllustratedObi Toppin out several weeks in Knicks injury blow  New York Post Knicks plan to play RJ Barrett at power forward if Obi Toppin misses time  Empire Sports MediaKnicks’ Toppin out 2-plus weeks with fracture in right leg  The San Diego Union-TribuneKnicks’ Toppin out 2-plus weeks with fracture in right leg  The Associated Press – en Espa?olView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Ian Begley, CP the Fanchise, and Ashley Nicole Moss analyze the current state of the Knicks | The Putback with Ian Begley – Yahoo Sports
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 2:51:44 PM

    Ian Begley, CP the Fanchise, and Ashley Nicole Moss analyze the current state of the Knicks | The Putback with Ian Begley  Yahoo Sports

  • Knicks have the best non-Russell Westbrook trade for the Lakers to make – Lakeshow Life
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 2:00:00 PM

    Knicks have the best non-Russell Westbrook trade for the Lakers to make  Lakeshow Life

  • Trae Young Misses Practice Day After Knicks Loss – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 1:51:40 PM

    Trae Young Misses Practice Day After Knicks Loss  Sports Illustrated

  • With Knicks searching for answers, Tom Thibodeau right to shake up rotation – Yahoo Sports
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 11:56:06 AM

    With Knicks searching for answers, Tom Thibodeau right to shake up rotation  Yahoo SportsTom Thibodeau starting to ‘play the kids’ as Knicks fans have hoped  New York Post Knicks Trade Targets with 2023 Trade Deadline 2 Months Away  Bleacher ReportKnicks News: New York climbs standings, trade reports continue to swirl  Daily KnicksKnicks’ Tom Thibodeau gets on increased playing time ‘kids’  ClutchPointsView Full Coverage on Google News

  • RJ Barrett and Jalen Brunson on NBA 2K partnership, Knicks – Business Insider
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 11:30:00 AM

    RJ Barrett and Jalen Brunson on NBA 2K partnership, Knicks  Business Insider

  • Nestor Cortes celebrates Aaron Judge return at Knicks game: ‘I’m ready for spring training’ – WFAN
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 11:00:00 AM

    Nestor Cortes celebrates Aaron Judge return at Knicks game: ‘I’m ready for spring training’  WFAN

  • On the Knicks’ new rotation and the trades that could result from it – Yahoo Sports
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 9:30:50 AM

    On the Knicks’ new rotation and the trades that could result from it  Yahoo Sports

  • How Knicks are benefitting from Eastern Conference mediocrity – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 8:20:00 AM

    How Knicks are benefitting from Eastern Conference mediocrity  New York Post

  • 126 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.12.09)”

    I wonder if that knee issue was the reason Obi hasn’t looked right for a while until it finally came to a head in the Hawks game. Man that really sucks because now Randle’s minutes are gonna get stretched out and that’s not good for him when we need him at his best more consistently.

    In other non-Knicks news…
    Who do you guys think doled out the worse contract? The Phillies with Turner or the Mets and Nimmo. I lean Philly- but not because I’m a Mets fan. They gave Trea ELEVEN YEARS, 300 MIL! Shatt! He may be the better player now, but that deal will not age well- even when he’s inevitably moved to DH or 3rd as he ages. Mets overpaid for Nimmo, but they HAD to bring him back considering the market. I just hope Cohen continues to go all in and brings Bassit back or signs Senga, and adds a bat to help Alonso and Lindor. Oh..and I pray the pitchers stay healthy. That Robertson signing and trade for Raley is HUGE.

    I like the Turner deal. He is awesome and can play anywhere. Guys with his athleticism age well. And that AAV should be chump change in 8 years.

    Re the last thread, I am fine with trying RJ at the PF but I expect him to get mauled. Paul Reed is going to eat him for lunch. You have to be an extraordinary athlete to succeed in the paint at 6’6.

    The Pelicans are in first place in the West and third in the league in SRS. They have a really deep squad behind Zion. There are a lot of quality players on that team. Pretty intrigued to see if they are a true contender.

    I’m sorry for Obi, I don’t know if the knee was bothering him the last few weeks (it could explain the botched dunks and bunnies) but I hope they wont rush him and he can be back at full strenght.

    Pretty curious about Thibs’ rotation decisions, I don’t think they can go 8-men, but who knows?

    Tonight we start a stretch of winnable games (even if 4 are on the road) against teams considered in our tier or worse before the season. Let’s see if the Invisible 6th Man is here to stay or just a passing guest.

    I don’t think Uncle Steve is done. Given the distinct possibility that the Mets may need to win a play in the game after pitching Scherzer and Verlander on the last two days, I look for the Mets to grab Bassitt @ 3 years $25 AAV. Senga seems to risky to seamlessly transition next year for win now Mets.

    This is a lot like last season when we had officially benched Kemba, only to see every other guard on the roster get injured or get Covid. We’ll see how far gone the Cam situation is–if we try to patch this together with a Woodson-esque Hartenstein/Sims pairing we’ll know he’s all but traded for the fakest first round pick of all time.

    Really sucks for Obi. Feels like we won’t find out what he is or isn’t until he’s on another team. Reasonable people can disagree about his ceiling but regardless we’ve botched this situation, and that’s only referring to what we’ve done after making the (very bad) pick itself.

    Macri’s newsletter today makes the depressing point that all of our 2021 free agent signings, who accumulated $139M in guaranteed money, basically did absolutely nothing but take minutes away from our draftees, and convince the front office to incinerate the 19th pick. They’re all either now in the doghouse or playing for the Pistons as a result of a salary dump.

    A semi-interesting what-if: the current team might be materially better with Alec Burks instead of Hartenstein.

    Tonight feels like a more important game than it should be. It will be a another test of whether our recent better defense with Grimes/Mitch healthy and Deuce at backup is legitimate and sustainable. If it is, the gap between us and the 2nd tier of teams is not so large we can’t move up a couple of slots in the standings.

    Nothing but respect for Steve Cohen’s approach. Lord knows good baseball players are a much more societally beneficial expense than most things hedge fund billionaires splurge on.

    I do find it a bit funny that all my friends who are Mets fans used to tell me how bad and unfair the Yankees’ spending from back in the day was. To their credit, they are not claiming now there’s any consistent principle at play. It’s good and fun when your team is the most willing spender in a sport.

    Will be interesting to see if Hal will exceed $300M for Rodon. I can only hope the (accurate) critiques regarding his cheapness have gotten to him.

    This particular Obi injury is not going to materially impact our decision on him or his potential as a player. There’s plenty of basketball left and imo not much left to learn about where he is right now anyway. He plays every game. We know what his skills are and the weaknesses he has to work on to become a significant starter on a good team. Right now he’s a solid bench/role player on a good team.

    Man, reading Lakeshow Life diss on the Knicks is pretty humbling. 🙂

    I really like Nimmo, but 8 years, wow. Hopefully he can avoid missing big chunks of future seasons, but I doubt it. Hey, it’s just Cohen’s money!

    I wonder about the Mets resigning Bassitt. He takes so long to throw a pitch and shakes off catchers’ signs so often that he might have a very tough time adjusting to the new rules/pitch clock this next season. Perhaps they are concerned about that.

    No LaMelo tonight.

    The streak, now approaching the nearly unbelievable, continues.

    “Lord knows good baseball players are a much more societally beneficial expense than most things hedge fund billionaires splurge on.”

    *************************

    You mean like charities and stuff?

    “There’s plenty of basketball left and imo not much left to learn about where he is right now anyway.”

    Obi Toppin has played a grand total of 2341 minutes, or a little less than a typical starter gets in one season.

    Saying we’ve seen all we need to see seems a bit inconsistent with the approach you’ve taken in evaluating, um, other players, who were a lot worse than Obi Toppin and played a lot more than him.

    Obi definitely feels like trade fodder now that Randle is back to Decent Randle.

    I had a thought/panic last night that, if the Bullets continue trending downward, they might want to move Beal finally, and Leon would likely bite. Fournier + Barrett + many combos of kids and picks would work. Hopefully this won’t happen, but I wouldn’t be shocked.

    Macri’s newsletter today makes the depressing point that all of our 2021 free agent signings, who accumulated $139M in guaranteed money, basically did absolutely nothing but take minutes away from our draftees, and convince the front office to incinerate the 19th pick. They’re all either now in the doghouse or playing for the Pistons as a result of a salary dump.

    And that’s why I don’t read Macri’s newsletter LOL.

    Look, it was a bad free agency. Let’s move on. Leon used a pick to get rid of the players and now it’s a new season, we got Brunson, etc. I just don’t get the hand wringing. Yeah, we missed a really good opportunity last off season with our cap space and had to fix it this last off season. So we did. Let’s move on. It’s not like we don’t have draft picks.

    I don’t know. C’est la vie. You live, you learn. We were the 4th seed and Leon thought it was wise to bring the band back for another year and bring in Kemba. Noel got hurt and Kemba sucked. The season was a disappointment but now its 2022, not 2021, so let’s move on.

    “You mean like charities and stuff?”

    Not gonna take the bait, but everyone should read “No Such Thing as a Free Gift” by Linsey McGoey

    “And that’s why I don’t read Macri’s newsletter LOL.

    Look, it was a bad free agency.”

    You don’t read Macri’s newsletter because…you agree with it?

    It sounds like you want people not to talk about enormous blunders that have laid waste to the team’s current position, because, uh, it makes you upset.

    Might I provide you with a recommendation: https://www.reddit.com/r/NYKnicks/

    Pretty curious about Thibs’ rotation decisions, I don’t think they can go 8-men, but who knows?

    Are we in the NBA Finals? 😀

    A semi-interesting what-if: the current team might be materially better with Alec Burks instead of Hartenstein.

    I wanted to keep Burks, a player i like, and send Fournier packing. I was told we couldn’t live without Fournier’s 3Ps. Well, at least we’re moving on from Fournier, but i really like Burks, if he plays SG/SF i mean. Burks, the PG, was a bad experience.

    “Look, it was a bad free agency.”

    Free agency is a Wasteland now. Every other team got that message right away, except for Leon. Sure, let’s move on, but that offseason alone is enough to get lots of GMs fired.

    Meanwhile, this FO has the rep of always trying to squeeze the other team in trades, so most teams aren’t eager to work with us.

    That leaves the draft, which could be a strong suit if we just stop trading picks. Maybe Leon will figure that out.

    “We were the 4th seed and Leon thought it was wise to bring the band back for another year and bring in Kemba. Noel got hurt and Kemba sucked. The season was a disappointment but now its 2022, not 2021, so let’s move on.”

    I don’t even think that was his plan “A”. The plan was to bring back part of that group but to add a higher tier free agent to it. Who he had in mind I don’t know, but he struck out in free agency and wound up with Fournier and Kemba.

    He had to put something in that space. He chose to bring the band back together (minus Bullock and Payton but with Kemba and Fournier ) rather than to try to take on bad long term contracts to add a pick (s).

    It cost us a little value to reopen the space a year earlier but Brunson was available. So we got the kind of player he was looking to add 1 year later at a small cost. Of course, we don’t know yet what it might cost to move Fournier if they insist on doing that.

    Would Beal or Lavine be better options than Donovan Mitchell? I don’t think so, they will be on a max contract until 2027.

    It sounds like you want people not to talk about enormous blunders that have laid waste to the team’s current position, because, uh, it makes you upset.

    Might I provide you with a recommendation: https://www.reddit.com/r/NYKnicks/

    This from a guy who said that optimists on KB tend to be dickish…

    smh

    I am all for holding oneself accountable but can’t say I stepped over the line in politely recommending an alternative to someone who responded to me citing a particular newsletter by telling me he doesn’t read it

    It sounds like you want people not to talk about enormous blunders that have laid waste to the team’s current position, because, uh, it makes you upset.

    No, it sounds like it was an attempt at humor which somehow you missed.

    Cyber re your last post in the previous thread. Did you notice how negative it is, while at the same time teaching an optimist how to be positive?

    I am all for holding oneself accountable but can’t say I stepped over the line in politely recommending an alternative to someone who responded to me citing a particular newsletter by telling me he doesn’t read it

    That “alternative” is widely mocked in this site, and every poster here is aware of it. So it reads as a mockery, not, uh, a recommendation.

    EDIT: to add “uh,” somewhere in the sentence and make this post more polite.

    He had to put something in that space.

    Classic. Just make up something that is completely untrue, then repeat it over and over again, despite that fact that everybody knows it is untrue.
    Chef’s kiss, my friend.

    Here’s our current “laid to waste” situation:

    -Randle playing at a level that more than justifies $25MAAV
    -Brunson playing at a level that more than justifies $25M AAV
    -22yo Grimes looking more and more like a possible future all-star (maybe a bit of hyperbole, but that was a sensational performance vs. the Hawks)
    -24yo Mitchell Robinson wrecking shit in the middle on a descending contract that will be chickenfeed by guaranteed year 4
    -23yo IQ becoming a very solid 2-way combo guard largely due to outstanding D and getting to the rim, two things his draft-time detractors were highly skeptical about, basically a consistent 3pt shot away from being a stud
    -A legit 24yo backup C on a solid deal that cost nothing to acquire
    -A 22yo second round pick PG being given a shot to win a primary backup role over a healthy Coach’s pet that the coach himself benched
    -A 24yo third-string C picked at #58 that could step into a NBA rotation as a plus player
    -A 24yo backup PF who runs and dunks in delightful fashion and who shows Steve Novak flashes
    -All of their own first rounders plus 4 protected and highly likely to convey first rounders

    We can certainly put RJ and Obi in the “pick incineration” category…and the RJ extension is looking terrible right now but was commensurate with league-wide valuation…

    We can certainly put the Fournier, Kemba, Noel, Rose, and Burks signings into the “sure wish they hadn’t done that” category.

    But laid waste to the team’s current position? Come on…

    DaRules, i’m negative at the moment, and i express it. What i ask positive folks is to only bring the positive things and answer the negative things they don’t agree with. Trying to prevent people from expressing their opinions, if it’s a negative opinion, doesn’t seem logical to me. But i’ll have to agree to disagree with you guys, and just do what i do, which is state my opinions and only that, never against this or that poster, this or that opinion.

    “TNFHsays:
    December 9, 2022 at 11:55
    I am all for holding oneself accountable but can’t say I stepped over the line in politely recommending an alternative to someone who responded to me citing a particular newsletter by telling me he doesn’t read it.”

    In my long experience of interacting with folks I’ve learned that there are lots of “polite” ways of being a dick.

    And mind you, I don’t have a problem with that per se, just don’t think it’s particularly polite to make a reference to the behavior of optimists as dickish when you know full well that there’s ample dickish behavior on both sides.

    I did not think Swift was responding to the substance of my post in good faith and still don’t, but I apologize if he was offended by my recommendation.

    A more sincere recommendation: read Macri’s newsletter! It’s good, and it’s ironic that you seem to be saying you don’t read it because it’s allegedly too pessimistic, as Macri is generally known to scratch and claw to try to find the bright side.

    “But laid waste to the team’s current position? Come on…”

    Yes, those mistakes made the team’s current position a lot worse even if they didn’t have implications for the series of unrelated transactions you listed.

    By the way…

    “24yo Mitchell Robinson wrecking shit in the middle on a descending contract that will be chickenfeed by guaranteed year 4”

    Agreed this is a great development, sure would’ve sucked if we let him walk for nothing huh? Good thing no one was saying it in fact would’ve been all good and well if we did that.

    “And mind you, I don’t have a problem with that per se, just don’t think it’s particularly polite to make a reference to the behavior of optimists as dickish when you know full well that there’s ample dickish behavior on both sides.”

    I made the comment yesterday in response to darules, who pokes his head in every now and then basically to say how stupid he thinks I am. I hope he’s taking cyber’s very good advice to heart.

    “I made the comment yesterday in response to darules, who pokes his head in every now and then basically to say how stupid he thinks I am. I hope he’s taking cyber’s very good advice to heart.”

    Here’s your exact quote:

    A very weird, Knickerblogger specific phenomenon is that the “optimists” are also dicks a lot of the time.

    One would think that a lawyer who is by definition an expert on the nuances of language could find a way of addressing a specific post or poster without making a sweeping generalization like this.

    And again, I have no problem per se with you feeling this way. But if that wasn’t a dickish comment actually targeting a group of posters, I don’t know what is.

    “Agreed this is a great development, sure would’ve sucked if we let him walk for nothing huh? Good thing no one was saying it in fact would’ve been all good and well if we did that.”

    Nah, because I’d be fine with running Hart and Sims out there like we did when Mitch was out for a couple of weeks. It certainly wouldn’t have risen to the level of “disaster” that you kept invoking for months on end. And waiting him out was certainly preferable to the “he’s probably going to get an offer we can’t match so we should have taken one of the many [likely miniscule] offers we were getting for him before the deadline”

    Was it possible to renounce Mitch and use that saved cap space to sign Brunson outright (i.e. no dead cap re: waiving Kemba) while drafting Duren or Kessler? If yes, I would have been just fine with that outcome too.

    And as I mentioned, it’s Mitch’s descending contract (and Brunson’s) that make those deals even better. Great GMing!

    It’s the dickish thread!

    This is fun. I’ll just remind folks, however, that cynical and sardonic walks the very fine line between “humor,” which this site explicitly lists as something it wants, and “personal attack.”

    I think it ALWAYS behooves us to take cynical and sardonic as humor here, even if you feel it misses. Partly because it usually is an attempt at humor, and on those occasions where it actually is a personal attack, the big boy in the room lets it roll off his back (you can be amused by the pettiness, but don’t strike back and make it a ‘thing’).

    I thought the ‘don’t read Macri’s newsletter’ line was pretty funny, and I’ll note it ended with ‘LOL.’ And I thought the response was pretty funny, too. Sharp-tongued, but funny.

    I would be a bit sad if we all had to reign in our creative juices around being funny because sometimes things land wrong (or are misinterpreted) and people feel hurt.

    Okay, done with that. Back to being dickish.

    There are a lot of interesting things going on in Knicks world so I don’t want to get bogged down in Knickerblogger drama. I’ll just say I think darules as well as some others in the “optimist” camp could stand to reply to things they disagree with more substantively sometimes. I endorse everything cyber is saying on the matter, basically.

    “23yo IQ becoming a very solid 2-way combo guard largely due to outstanding D and getting to the rim, two things his draft-time detractors were highly skeptical about, basically a consistent 3pt shot away from being a stud”

    I understand it hasn’t happened yet, but if we’re taking stock of the team’s position as a whole it sure seems worth mentioning that we’re likely trading this guy because we gave too much money to a vastly inferior player. D’oh!

    “I would be a bit sad if we all had to reign in our creative juices around being funny because sometimes things land wrong (or are misinterpreted) and people feel hurt.”

    Agreed, which is why I was a bit surprised Z-Man thought I was being “dickish.” I think my response pretty standard fare Knickerblogger banter. I also didn’t have a problem with what swift said.

    I do think darules occasional posts in which he mostly just reiterates that he doesn’t read mine don’t exactly contribute to a thriving discussion, but I also don’t really care, which is why I said he was being a dick and moved on.

    “I understand it hasn’t happened yet, but if we’re taking stock of the team’s position as a whole it sure seems worth mentioning that we’re likely trading this guy because we gave too much money to a vastly inferior player. D’oh!”

    You mean just like we were likely losing Mitch for nothing? Or how Julius was likely to never going to be able to get to the rim again or change his shot profile? Or how it was likely that we were going to mortgage the next 5 years in a foolish Donovan Mitchell trade?

    One would think that enough of these things “likely to happen” haven’t happened to be more discriminating about using the term “likely.”

    “…which is why I said he was being a dick and moved on.”

    But that’s not what you said…if it was I would have not responded as such.

    This from a guy who said that optimists on KB tend to be dickish

    Did you miss the part where I included an LOL, clearly indicating that I was joking?

    I’m more than willing to admit that last off season was a blunder and that last season was a disappointment. But I’m just confused as to why Macri is bringing it up now, two months into THIS season. Like what exactly is the point of pointing out the mistakes AGAIN?

    I’m pretty sure he’s already covered this territory, so it just seems clickbaity, especially after we’ve won 2 in a row against good teams, have young players added to the rotation (who are doing well), etc.

    Hell, if he wants to be negative he could focus on RJ or how WE MUST TRADE RANDLE NOW or whatever. But no, he chose to relitigate something from last season. Seems unnecessary to me.

    Next time I’ll be sure to put (this is a joke) in parenthesis.

    And the thing is, despite it being a big misstep and despite having to use some draft capital to fix it/open up space for Brunson, is our situation materially much worse after he did that? I don’t think so.

    But also, I thought it was funny you linked to reddit. I don’t really take any of this personally. If people want to dunk on me sometimes, have at it. I will speak up if it’s too far.

    I have read Macri’s newsletter too. I only said that because the last few weeks there have been multiple days where one of the first posts was something along the lines of “Macri’s newsletter today was really depressing”

    The big problem with bringing back all those vets was giving them 2+1’s. Journeymen vets are journeymen for a reason, 1+1’s with team options on the second year should be sufficient, if not, c’est la vie. Perry did a great job negotiating those type of deals. I don’t know why they stopped. Also, if you’re going to target a free agent, go ahead and tamper. Make sure you get your man.

    I think Knickerblogger would be better if everyone dialed back the personal attacks voluntarily. We had a good discussion of RJ going, but then the discussion deteriorates into rehashing old grievances. It’s just basketball and we’re all just fans. Who gives a flying fuck what someone thought 2 years ago? Can we just stay in this season for more than half a thread?

    Speaking of dickish, I think I have found the best Knick comp for RJ–Dick Van Arsdale. They let him go after 3 RJish seasons, and he turned into a good player.

    I think RJ could develop into a solid 3 and D player, if he ever lets the Maple Mamba persona die. I’m thinking P.J. Tucker with a little better handle.

    The way the optimist-pessimist discussion has evolved lately is fascinating. We have completely moved on from player evaluation. In the old days we would have raging arguments about Eddy Curry and I would be accused of never watching the games in the hidey-hole in my mothers basement I was obviously living in. (Which was so unfair because I had figured out how to steal my neighbor’s cable down there.)

    We have different takes on player projection and management but as I noted in the past, there really isn’t wide disagreement on where we are. In reality, we all mostly think the same thing about most of that too.

    So for the most part what the proper tone to take about the facts on the ground is mostly what we are talking about.

    People seem to take umbrage when people say they aren’t being positive enough. I just don’t have the energy. And I don’t worry about managing people’s emotions either. If you have survived being a long term Knicks fan you clearly have rock solid mental health.

    “He had to put something in that space.”

    No, he didn’t. I have no idea where you get the idea that he did. Like seriously — where?

    And not only did he not have to put something in that space, he *especially* didn’t need to put a bunch of dreck in that space for multiple years, thus prompting the trading away of a lottery pick a year later to clear out the mistakes.

    Even if there is news that we somehow traded RJ for Giannis straight up, I don’t expect any posts from cyber for the rest of the day….good luck cyber!

    “You mean just like we were likely losing Mitch for nothing? Or how Julius was likely to never going to be able to get to the rim again or change his shot profile? Or how it was likely that we were going to mortgage the next 5 years in a foolish Donovan Mitchell trade?”

    I will repeat that I never, ever said the first thing. Just didn’t happen. Didn’t even imply it. I literally just said it would be bad *if* it happened (you disagreed and said it would be no big deal, basically). Never predicted it. Not once.

    I also never predicted we’d overpay for Mitchell. You are making this stuff up. I was actually on the more pro-trade side of things. These threads all still exist, so feel free to go back and check.

    As for the second, sure, I expressed some skepticism about Randle moving forward and we’ll see how this season turns out. I’m definitely very happy with his play so far. I basically sign all of my posts with “I hope I’m wrong,” and I would be delighted if in this case I was.

    It’s worth noting that the specific victory lap you’re trying to take isn’t supported by the data, though. Last season he took 32% of his shots at the rim and this season he’s at…31%. His efficiency has vastly improved because he’s killing it from floater range and has improved a bit from 3.

    I have given up on telling Strat that the idea that we “had to put something into that space” is simply a falsehood. I probably told him 100 times but he never stopped saying it, so he kind of wore me out on the matter.

    I don’t mind it when people have different opinions than me. Heck, that’s what makes this site great.

    It drives me completely insane when people say bullshit that they made up in their own head like “he had to put something in that space” over and over again, and then when they get challenged on it they don’t say “yeah I guess that’s wrong,” they just pretend like nobody is challenging them on it, then a month later will just repeat the same bullshit.

    It’s fucking gaslighting. Let’s call it what it is. Holy fuck is that irritating.

    So Strat, let me ask you: What would have happened if Leon Rose had not “put something in that space?” Would the Knicks have to forfeit all 82 games? What would the negative consequences have been?

    Please answer this question for the love of all that is holy, or never ever again say “he had to put something in that space.” Actually, I’ll answer for you, to save you the three seconds it takes to Google it: if you don’t reach a salary floor, the salary money is spread around to other players that are already on the books until the floor is reached. THAT’S IT. THAT’S THE FUCKING ANSWER.

    So stop using that as an excuse for why Leon Rose gave out shitty contracts to shitty players that can’t crack our rotation, because it is utter bullshit.

    yay, it’s friday…

    i know it’s just the hornets, but, feels like a big game tonight…

    interested to see who gets obi’s minutes…my guess is it’s going to either be sims or evian…

    PJ Tucker-level would be a pretty disappointing ultimate outcome for RJ. Maybe not disastrous, but hella disappointing.

    There are some similarities…height, strength, limited fast-twitchathleticism…but RJ is at least capable of getting to the rim and making plays for others. PJ has averaged 1.5 FTA/36 and 1.8 AST/36 for his career. RJ has far more all-around potential than that.

    OTOH, PJ may be (or have been) a better defender and shooter than RJ will ever be.

    The good news is that PJ Tucker was not PJ Tucker at age 22.

    “I will repeat that I never, ever said the first thing. Just didn’t happen. Didn’t even imply it. I literally just said it would be bad *if* it happened (you disagreed and said it would be no big deal, basically). Never predicted it. Not once.”

    Not goint to litigate whether you ever used the term “likely” or not…but you raised the possibility continually, and like a billion times. Why would you do that if you didn’t think it was likely? Why would the conversation about whether they could have traded him at the deadline even have come up?

    Did you not suggest that he could easily get more money from another team that what we could offer him? As a way of saying that the chances were unacceptably high that we would lose him?

    Just own that you hyperventilated about that for months all for naught, and that even if we lost him for nothing, we’d be watching Hart and Sims and maybe Duren or Kessler instead. (oh wait, that’s cherry-picking…something we never do when discussing the 19th pick)

    “Did you not suggest that he could easily get more money from another team that what we could offer him? As a way of saying that the chances were unacceptably high that we would lose him?”

    I definitely didn’t, because I understand enough about the salary cap to know this would be factually incorrect.

    What I said was *if* we were going to let him walk, then it would’ve been very dumb that we didn’t trade him at the deadline. That was true, and lots of people were saying it, both on this board and elsewhere. I never once weighed in on the likelihood, and if you’re going to pretend I did at least pull up an actual post. Again, these threads are still around.

    I’m actually surprised you’re bringing this up, because you disagreed that it would be very dumb to not trade him and then let him walk for nothing. Now *that’s* the view that looks ridiculous in hindsight.

    I think the less tone-policing, the better. We’re all adults here, if it crosses a line, someone will say so, and part of the board culture is the (mostly) innocent sniping. I also think the less re-litigating of past remarks, the better (unless it’s for comedy, because laughter before friendship).

    So, to that end: Say we win tonight and get back to .500. How do people feel about our *single season win total*? Are we .500? Trending downward? Trending upward? What do people think?

    “If you have survived being a long term Knicks fan you clearly have rock solid mental health.”

    This is the funniest rose-tinted optimist take of them all! It can equally be said that being a Knicks fan clearly shows your mental health is questionable to begin with (and likely in rapid decline, no matter where it started).

    I can’t get that RJ nightclub image out of my head. It’d be funny (not so very) if he’s sucking because he’s partying too much (rumor-monger mode on Full!). I have to admit that if I were the center of attention like that (can’t even imagine), I’d probably behave dickishly going forward.

    Okay, since I’m two-for-two so far, I’ll say tonight is the perfect trap game, and we’re going to lose in a pathetic and ignoble (nod to TNFH) fashion.

    I won’t mention that their roster is a who’s-who of “who?”…

    People can be pessimistic all they want. I just never appreciate the idea that I somehow don’t really understand what is going on if I’m optimistic, which team pessimism sometimes has a tendency to do.

    I’ve given my reasons for being optimistic. they are valid reasons. Maybe in some people’s eyes those are not enough. But that doesn’t make them invalid. It’s not like I’m making stuff up like Wemby is going to fall in the draft to the mid teens and we’re going to draft him.

    The evolution of this discussion is kind of fascinating though. I can’t actually remember when the whole team optimist vs. pessimist thing even started. The camps have always existed but I feel like we just started using these terms like just last season.

    And yeah, I’m not optimistic in the sense that I think we’re definitely on track to compete for a championship in the next few years. I’m optimistic because we’re respectable. When I turn on the tv to watch a game, half of the time I’m going to enjoy myself. So those wins, to me, are not meaningless. Not after like 2 decades of screaming at the TV. And we got a roster full of young players and all of our picks (plus some). So I can reasonably think we can get better from here. And our GM isn’t handing out Noah or Melo poison pill contracts. Not yet at least.

    I’m not staring at a 28 win team full of 32 year olds with no draft pick in the upcoming draft cause we traded it away. After 20 plus years of futility, I am perfectly happy with some hope and wishcasting on a roster full of young players. At least for now.

    “Trending downward? Trending upward? What do people think?”

    Knicksiness, outside of my above attempt to reverse-jinx things, this team’s wins have always been on the back of strong defense, as long as I’ve been watching. The last two games we’ve held two good teams (admittedly lots of injury outs) to around 90 points each, which is almost unheard of these days.

    I don’t know if it’s the roster changes or Thibs finally getting buy-in, or both (or if one is leading to the other), but if it’s a real thing and not a blip we have the potential to have a really good year (as we can be in almost every game, giving us a decent chance to win most nights).

    Big if, but that’s what my rose-tinted glasses are watching.

    What’s more likely tonight?
    The Knicks doing what they’re supposed to do tonight and handle Charlotte the way we handled an undermanned Atlanta? Or Randle giving up another 30 point game to a 6’7″ PF like he often does?

    Unrelated side note: I am thoroughly enjoying this Mount Westmore album.

    I prefer Team Realism to Team Pessimism.

    I appreciate the optimistic people but there is no doubt who the funnier bunch is.

    Swift, Macri brought up the past blunders in the context of their implications for the current team. Specifically the decision to shop quickly. Unfortunately in the NBA past mistakes have a way of not just vanishing into thin air. I don’t think it was “clickbait” because I’m not sure that’s a term that ever really applies to a paid newsletter.

    In any event, never personal. You’re a good dude, I just wish your optimistic takes were correct more often 😉

    “So, to that end: Say we win tonight and get back to .500. How do people feel about our *single season win total*? Are we .500? Trending downward? Trending upward? What do people think?”

    I will say having been at Friday’s game that the new rotation certainly seems to have improved the vibes. What exactly I mean by that is unclear even to me, but it was a more enjoyable team to watch.

    I could get into seeing Deuce, Grimes, and Quickley give opposing ball handlers hell for the rest of the season. Unfortunately the Obi injury kind of throws a damper on things, hopefully he’s not out too long.

    I’m talking vaguely about vibes because it’s pretty hard to get a feel for where the team stands IMO. Are we lucky to be .500 since we’ve racked up a number of wins against injured teams? Is it a miracle we’re .500 given that RJ Barrett seems to have his sights set on Wembanyama? What if Deuce starts hitting some shots? What if Randle stops hitting other shots? What if Quickley is traded?

    I said 41-41 before the season and instead of overthinking it, all things considered I should probably just say 13-13 would make me feel fine about that.

    That’s a total cop out of course, because Derrick Rose and Evan Fournier factored into my prediction to a large extent and it seems unlikely they’ll have much of anything to do with our eventual total. The swing players in our total are probably Deuce, Grimes, and RJ. We *more or less* know what to expect from everyone else, though we hope there’s still growth coming from IQ.

    >Classic. Just make up something that is completely untrue, then repeat it over and over again, despite that fact that everybody knows it is untrue.
    Chef’s kiss, my friend.<

    JK47, stick to music.

    What exactly I mean by that is unclear even to me, but it was a more enjoyable team to watch.

    I definitely noticed this in the Atlanta game even just watching it on TV. Of course, this is ignoring when they’d pan over to the bench and Fournier looked sad and Cam had a grumpy look on his face.

    But the players playing just seemed to be playing with so much more joy and for each other and just kind of enjoying themselves more.

    I think it’s because, at least for now, Thibs has settled on a rotation, so the guys that are in feel more at ease. And also the addition of Grimes and McBride has, temporarily at least, addressed the biggest thing that was hurting this team this season. It’s gotta be incredibly frustrating to go out there night after night and lose because of one issue that haunts the team no matter how hard you try. So I feel like burden has been lifted off of them right now.

    I am much happier with this team than many previous vintages. Brunson, Grimes, IQ, Obi, Mitch, Sims, and Hart are all perfectly watchable to me. Deuce is watchable on defense. We have had years where I didn’t feel like there was more than one or two guys in that category.

    And this has to have been one of the tightest spreads ever in win predictions other than a certain someone. CRONIN!!!!!

    So we can all feel pretty good about that.

    “We can certainly put the Fournier, Kemba, Noel, Rose, and Burks signings into the “sure wish they hadn’t done that” category.”

    Z-Man

    I’m not so sure I agree with all of that.

    Fournier and Kemba were clearly mistakes. Not one person here disputes that.

    Would it shock you if we got something of small value for Rose at the deadline?

    I think the Burks deal was perfectly fine. He may turn out to be an asset for Detroit before it’s over. He was part of the compensation to move Nerlens who was hurt. If Nerlens can get healthy again, he might land something for them too. I heard Dallas was inquiring about Nerlens.

    “I am much happier with this team than many previous vintages. Brunson, Grimes, IQ, Obi, Mitch, Sims, and Hart are all perfectly watchable to me. Deuce is watchable on defense. We have had years where I didn’t feel like there was more than one or two guys in that category.”

    I’m with you on this.

    I like most of this team. I want players that play hard, defend, move the ball, and play smart. I like all these kids.

    I struggle with too much dribbling, bad shots, foolish TOs, and taking defensive possessions off from RJ and Randle. I’ve mostly defended RJ since we drafted him, but he hasn’t change his game at all this year. Even Randle has adjusted his game and benefitted from Brunson.

    Say we win tonight and get back to .500. How do people feel about our *single season win total*? Are we .500? Trending downward? Trending upward? What do people think?

    I was on par until game 19 then the string of home losses derailed my predictions a bit and now I’m at minus-2 (my expected record 14-11).

    I still think we’re right in the scrum for the playoffs-play-in (6th to 10th), RJ regaining some semblance of form would help.

    We need to arrive at the next short homestand going at least 4-1 in this “winnable” stretch.
    Tonight, after holding CLE and ATL under-90 points, it’s a mid-term exam to understand if we’re defending better or we’re just plain lucky (the run and gun Kings will be the real exam sunday).

    As usual the caveat is that the Hornets are missing players (Lamelo and DSJ plus the perennial Hayward and another couple of scrubs) but they fought to the end both in Brooklyn and against the Clippers, so we have to stay alert.

    I’m not surprised the Pellies are playing really well but I am very surprised they’re doing it with CJ McCollom doing his best RJ impression. They’re 16-8 and the dude leading the team in minutes has a .477TS% and also plays shit defense.

    good question silky…

    I think we’ll still land around 44 wins…however- this rotation shake up has given me cause to think perhaps we can go several games higher than 44…maybe even a 48 win team…

    our offense looks better, more often, like almost every other team – things get sloppy with ball control, guys miss open shots, and the game devolves to iso play after iso play…

    more important than our offense – we now have 2 guys on the perimeter actually putting pressure on the other team trying to get their offense going…

    plus mitch and julius are playing well…those 2 guys together can potentially control the paint against “most” teams..

    oops, forgot to add we also have quik out on the perimeter guarding…

    3 guys getting after the opposing primary ball handler is pretty useful…

    and, hopefully julius gets another good night’s sleep/pre-game nap…

    Yeah, I was impressed with a game McCollum played earlier in the year and kind of shocked when I checked the team numbers two days ago and saw how bad he’s been.

    As a newly minted optimist I will say that there is considerable upside to the Pels win projection.

    “What I said was *if* we were going to let him walk, then it would’ve been very dumb that we didn’t trade him at the deadline. That was true, and lots of people were saying it, both on this board and elsewhere. I never once weighed in on the likelihood, and if you’re going to pretend I did at least pull up an actual post. Again, these threads are still around.

    I’m actually surprised you’re bringing this up, because you disagreed that it would be very dumb to not trade him and then let him walk for nothing. Now *that’s* the view that looks ridiculous in hindsight.”

    “What I said was *if* we were going to let him walk, then it would’ve been very dumb that we didn’t trade him at the deadline.”

    That’s a pretty disingenuous characterization of your position. It suggest that “letting him walk” meant we wouldn’t make him a bonafide offer. What would make you even contemplate that?

    We know two things for sure:
    1) The Knicks did not offer the max they could have before the season started, which some posters were upset about (lock him up before he proves he’s a bargain at that price.) I was ambivalent because besides all of his obvious flaws, he was coming off of a very serious foot injury and was injury-prone for his prior 3 years. To my recollection, we have no evidence that he would have accepted such an offer at that time, or at any time before the trade deadline.
    2) At the trade deadline, there was no indication as to whether Mitch would accept an offer from the Knicks before free agency. So there were only two options: either trade him for one of the several offers on the table, or risk letting him become a UFA where he could go anywhere he wanted for any price. At that point, there was no indication whatsoever that if they turned down trade offers, they were guaranteed to be able to sign him. They took a calculated risk, which included the possibility that they would lose him for nothing REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY WANTED HIM BACK OR NOT.

    Are you now trying to spin your going on and on about it after that point was actually about a fear that Leon would decide to walk away from Mitch after the season without making any kind of reasonable offer? Of course it wasn’t.

    It’s pretty clever when folks try to position themselves so that they can claim to be right no matter how things turned out. And now you twist my position to suggest that you were more right than I was then, even though my position all along was be patient and let’s see how things turn out, and if he walks on his own accord, it’s not a big deal (which it wouldn’t have been, as he’s a nice but not elite player on a roughly market-value deal.) Nice try, though!

    not to be too begrudging – but why in the hell did it take going on the “hot seat” for thibs to adjust not only our rotation but also the timing of substitutions…

    like the last 2 seasons prior – leaving guys out on the court all quarter long was ridiculous…

    the substitution timing makes so much more sense these days…

    if things do improve with the team regarding rotations, substitutions, minutes allocations –

    you know some numbers guy somewhere is gonna let everyone know about it in every single meeting the rest of the year…

    so, quick question: who gets obi’s 17 or so minutes?

    Good poll question- who takes Obi’s minutes. Tonight I’m guessing he goes eight with Sims getting spot minutes. Going forward- Svi time. Once Thibs banishes you you’re gone (unless Covid) so I think he’ll get some non-garbage time minutes. I know Thibs mentioned him once earlier in the week so that’s my guess.

    so, quick question: who gets obi’s 17 or so minutes

    Geo very very good question as I think it will define what we think of Thibs going forward. If it is just a bit more Julius et al but instead a reinvention of the 2nd unit -if it works or not , I would give Thibs the thumbs up in the second scenario but keep him on the hot seat in the first.

    “It’s pretty clever when folks try to position themselves so that they can claim to be right no matter how things turned out. And now you twist my position to suggest that you were more right than I was then, even though my position all along was be patient and let’s see how things turn out, and if he walks on his own accord, it’s not a big deal (which it wouldn’t have been, as he’s a nice but not elite player on a roughly market-value deal.) Nice try, though!”

    I have no idea what you’re on about at this point. I’m not spinning anything, my position was clear: if we let Mitch walk for nothing, it would make the decision not to trade him at the deadline of a season in which we couldn’t so much as make the play-in game very, very stupid. I feel completely vindicated in this position based on how he’s playing this year.

    To be specific, I said “Hopefully we can all agree on one painfully obvious thing: if we let Mitch walk without having traded him despite confirmed interest at the trade deadline of an obviously lost season, we *seriously* fucked up. This feels like something people will try to deny if/when it happens.” (https://knickerblogger.net/2022/03/01/sny-source-knicks-mitchell-robinson-not-close-to-potential-extension-before-deadline/#comments)

    You did not agree, and argued it would actually not be a big deal if we let him walk for nothing.

    Now that you’re characterizing Mitch as someone who is “wrecking shit in the middle on a descending contract that will be chickenfeed by guaranteed year 4,” I am assuming you now realize that was wrong.

    Katz has a piece in The Athletic specifically on who will take Obi’s minutes. He’s got no idea, is the basic answer, but he throws lots of options out there. My favorite line:

    “It’s the Toppin paradox. When he is healthy, he’s redundant, but when he’s hurt, he’s somehow irreplaceable. The options aren’t perfect, but the Knicks have to pick one.”

    He does, however, describe the play right before Cam was sent to Siberia, which apparently was an effortless and completely botched defensive assignment. I’d only been watching his completely botched offensive moves, so that was interesting.

    “Owensays:
    December 9, 2022 at 14:57
    I prefer Team Realism to Team Pessimism.”

    See, I think dubbing one team the “realists” is in insult to the other team.

    My real issue is that there aren’t really any teams at all, it’s a false narrative that whitewashes the diverse spectrum of opinions here. For example, TNFH is far more optimistic about Obi’s ceiling than I am. strat is more pessimistic about RJ than E.

    There are some very specific sticking points and tendencies that are at the root of much of the unpleasant discourse. One of them is about whether this current FO has the capacity to build a consistent winner in a reasonable amount of time. That stuff isn’t going away, but it shouldn’t define the way we respond to specific posts.

    Fwiw, I do think Burks & Noel are very good players and were positive values on their deals if Noel got healthy. We’d have kept them if Brunson hadn’t become a FA. As has been noted, it’s rare for a player his level to become a FA. Kemba & Fournier did turn out terribly.

    I’m hoping Derrick Rose is still just recovering and will be back in form at some point this season, uh, preferably before the trade deadline.

    Maybe we acquire a PF next week.

    Agree that “Realism” is a sly way of spinning (some) negativity as being empirically correct. Also agree that there is much more nuance on individual points than any binary labels will allow.

    As a card-carrying optimist, the best developments are many: Grimes, Sims, a steady Mitch, glimpses of the IQ we want, a solid Brunson, and to my mind a much more contained Randle. I still think we’re on track to win 44 or more, which someone flagged as a threshold to make the season a success.

    Btw. Netherlands just tied Argentina in extra time 101st minute.

    Per Woj:

    ESPN Sources: With labor talks ongoing, the NBA and Players Association are agreeing to extend the Dec. 15 deadline that each side has to give notice of plans to opt out of the current CBA in Dec. 2023. Ratification of extension will come at Board of Governors meeting Wednesday.

    https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1601293110713397248?t=OC6ChvKQ8TkaIajJuX68Yg&s=19

    Apparently Silver wants a hard cap above the lux tax somewhere.

    Click on his article: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/35219446/nba-players-union-agree-extend-opt-deadline-cba-sources-say

    I’d only been watching his completely botched offensive moves, so that was interesting.

    that’s what messed me up with RJ too…once i finally accepted the stats my eyes were seeing – i started paying more attention…

    to be honest, some of that is because our defense hadn’t been this atrocious in a while…all those 3 point bombs made me look at what’s going on during defense – other than mitch being like king kong swatting away them weak ol’ rickety planes…

    “To be specific, I said “Hopefully we can all agree on one painfully obvious thing: if we let Mitch walk without having traded him despite confirmed interest at the trade deadline of an obviously lost season, we *seriously* fucked up. This feels like something people will try to deny if/when it happens.””

    Nope. They rolled the dice with no guarantee that he would come back rather than trade him for the peanuts they were offered for him. (if they WERE offered somethining like likely lottery pick for him they should have taken it and ran).

    As it turned out, they correctly read the room and signed him to a good deal for both sides AFTER Mitch proved that he was durable enough to risk 4 guaranteed years on him, not before. They risked losing him because it was a risk worth taking.

    And had they lost him for nothing, what real difference would it have made? They’d still have Hart and Sims. They’d still have his salary slot. They’d still have draft picks to pick up the next Walker Kessler or Jalen Duren that comes along.

    All they wouldn’t have is Mitch on a slightly above market value deal, or the various second rounders that teams were offering for him.

    So yeah, I was ambivalent then and am ambivalent now. He’s great to have but in no way would I be criticizing management if he decided he didn’t want to be here.

    please, tell me how in the world did the guy who got a yellow card for an illegal tackle not get kicked out of the game for blasting a soccer in to the opposing bench…

    i don’t think i’ve ever seen that…i’ve seen guys throw the ball, but never wind up and really boot it…

    that was bizarre – go dutch…

    Yeah dubbing one side “realists” is definitely a slick dig at team optimist.

    There is nothing unrealistic about my optimism/belief that The Knicks are trending in teh right direction and could be good or even very good within the next few years. The oldest player in our rotation now is 28. Everyone else is 25 or younger and we have all of our draft picks plus some extra ones going forward. That’s an objectively positive position to be in if you don’t hold the false belief that the only way we can get better is by landing a top draft pick.

    This is the sticking point in the debate/schism. I respect the other side’s opinion, I just don’t agree with it. When half of the all stars in this league were drafted later in the first round and some of the best players in the league were drafted in the second round, you can’t tell me we’re stuck in mediocrity with 7 first round picks in the next 5 drafts and a roster full of young players (most of whom are showing improvement just within the last few weeks).

    i shouldn’t say this…thankfully the game thread will fade it to the past soon…

    positivity…negativity…ambivalence…are all personal choices that reside within ourselves…

    your assignment of that “nomenclature” to others is your own personal construct…

    stop blaming other people for how you feel…

    and, there it is 🙂

    “I am much happier with this team than many previous vintages.”

    This I can agree with, Owen. RJ is still fairly boneheaded and Randle has his cringey moments (less of them this year), but the rest of the guys in this rotation seem like tough, sharp, and hard-working players. That’s all I ask for!

    Maybe Svi will get a few minutes at PF tonight? We could use the extra outside shooting.

    “And had they lost him for nothing, what real difference would it have made? They’d still have Hart and Sims. They’d still have his salary slot. They’d still have draft picks to pick up the next Walker Kessler or Jalen Duren that comes along.”

    I don’t get it, Mitch is “wrecking shit in the middle on a descending contract that will be chickenfeed by guaranteed year 4,” but also, it would’ve been fine and dandy if we let him walk for nothing?

    I agree with the characterization! But sure doesn’t sound like a player you just…let walk for nothing.

    We also wouldn’t have “his salary slot,” we’ve discussed this. We signed him with Bird Rights and wouldn’t have any cap space even if his contract was off our books.

    Yes. Owen/Ess Dog hit one good aspect of this season squarely. At the end of the day, basketball is an entertainment, so the Knicks having guys I actually want to watch is a big plus point.

    As Geo wrote, tonight is an interesting test for Thibs (and his doghouse). Where does he go for Obi’s minutes? No one? More Sims? Some Cam? And boy do I want to see another opponent held under 100 points. That would be the smile of the week.

    It’s also pretty slick that rather than actually engaging on my list of reasons to feel that our FO hasn’t “laid waste to our current position,” you took one of the specified reasons for not feeling that way that you actually agree with even more than me and spun it as some kind of hypocracy on my part.

    So even when the outcome is exactly what YOU wanted, e.g. Mitch is entrenched as our starting C for years to come, you can’t just say “well that’s true…” and then maybe pivot to the things that indicate that Leon has in fact done to lay waste to our hopes.

    There are, in fact, the only “incinerations” that have taken place….the selection of Obi over Hali (because Obi has virtually no trade value while Hali could easily get you at least two firsts), the signing of mercs in free agency 2021, and prematurely signing RJ to an extension before we had to, since he would only have been an RFA at worst. Everything else is just noise where the good more than cancels out the bad. And the end result is what I listed.

    If after reading the list, you still feel that this FO has laid waste to your hopes and dreams, that’s fair! To each his own! I just put it there for contemplation more than anything else.

    “We also wouldn’t have “his salary slot,” we’ve discussed this. We signed him with Bird Rights and wouldn’t have any cap space even if his contract was off our books.”

    But had we signed him prior to free agency we wouldn’t have been as close to opening up enough cap space to sign Brunson outright, since Cuban refused to do a sign-and-trade under any circumstances, correct?

    JK47, stick to music.

    A fine substantive answer. You still didn’t answer my question, or address my point.

    You. Do. Not. Have. To. Spend. All. Of. Your. Cap. Space.

    You keep saying “you have to put something into that space” and that is just factually wrong. You absolutely do NOT have to put something into that space. You could simply not spend the money, and then guess what you have the following year? CAP SPACE.

    Leon Rose CHOSE to use that cap space. In fact, he chose to spend the cap space for the following season as well, as well as the season beyond that in the case of Evan “DNP-CD” Fournier. He did not HAVE TO spend this cap space.

    So stop saying that he had to. It’s infuriatingly annoying. It’s the kind of thing that I just can’t let pass by without pointing out that it’s bullshit. Maybe this is just semantics, and you do not literally mean that Leon “had to put something in that space,” so if that is the case please clarify.

    Hey, JK, when you post on music forums do people ever tell you to stick to writing about shitty basketball teams?

    Yesterday, Cybersoze says: “Where’s Knick Fan in Celtic Land to give us the timetable for Obi’s injury?”

    Short answer is need more info. Long answer: I would have to see the imaging results to do that. the things that mainly affect healing time: Apposition, Alignment, the shape of the fracture, and location. We know the first two are good because someone wrote non-displaced. We have an approximate location (head of fibula near the knee) but need the exact location to know a ballpark healing. Uneven fracture lines tend to heal quicker than clean straight breaks because they are usually more stable(we don’t have this info).

    So there is your answer a day late and a dollar short.

    I think Defense is pointing to the league salary floor:

    Salary cap: $123,655,000
    Luxury tax line: $150,267,000
    Salary floor: $111,290,000

    And if you don’t spend at least that 111.2 mil, you have to redistribute the rest among your signed players, so most GMs say “well, ok, let’s sign another guy or two then.”

    That said, I’d literally rather have signed Gleague guys on 1-year contracts than the Walker/Fournier multi-year contracts.

    The FO laid waste to the team’s current position because the team’s current position is capped-out purgatory.

    It’s a 100% accurate description of where the Knicks stand. Couldn’t be more accurate. The Knicks are in NBA wasteland.

    The only way T.O. can get to some other conclusion is to vastly overrate potential internal growth of the “young” roster, but we’ve already seen, up close and personal, what the objective precincts of the association think of said potential growth.

    And if you don’t spend at least that 111.2 mil, you have to redistribute the rest among your signed players, so most GMs say “well, ok, let’s sign another guy or two then.”

    That said, I’d literally rather have signed Gleague guys on 1-year contracts than the Walker/Fournier multi-year contracts.

    Well, this is what I was getting at, that it’s a semantic thing. But he uses it as a rationalization for giving multi-year contracts to vets– “Well, whatareyougonnado, you HAVE to put something in that space.”

    No, actually. No, you don’t. Not even a little bit.

    I get the “use it or lose it” concept when it comes to cap space, but “lose it” is in fact an option. And in many cases, the better option.

    The East is big, man:

    @NYPost_Brazille
    Tom Thibodeau left open possibility of using Isaiah Hartenstein and Jericho Sims together tonight.

    Young player ceilings:

    IQ: Tier 5
    Grimes: Tier 5
    RJ: Tier 4
    Obi: Tier 5
    Robinson: Tier 5
    Reddish: Tier 4

    Nothing really there. Some promise, nothing special. That group ain’t growing up four more years and contending.

    To the extent you have to “use the cap space” — you don’t, but I’ll play along — you sign one-year jabronies and chuckleheads to balance the books. You don’t give a bunch of multi-year contracts to merc dreck. Leon Rose gave a bunch of multi=year contracts to merc dreck.

    Sometimes, I just don’t get you guys. Why are we talking about literally anything else but the triumphant return of THE EAST IS BIG, MAN?

    I get the “use it or lose it” concept when it comes to cap space, but “lose it” is in fact an option. And in many cases, the better option.

    JK47 — never stop posting about basketball. You are a must read. As for this, I think Strat means the criticism would have been brutal if Leon had not used the cap space. Consider, if we were losing all the same games and had not made “an effort” to improve the team, folks might be howling even louder than we are now about Kemba/Fournier.

    While I agree that the cap space could have been saved, and I appreciate your counterintuitive logic, I think it’s just like your idea (I think it’s yours or TNFH) about trading Brunson today. It’s possibly a great move but also an obvious non-starter for this franchise and thus beyond the realm of our “possible.”

    As for the FO laying waste per so many posters. Swift has argued better, but I just don’t see it. Maybe my/our hope is only relative to so many previously unwatchable teams, and maybe it is contingent upon irrational hopes for our young players, but at least we have young players to hope for. That has not always been the case.

    Sometimes, I just don’t get you guys. Why are we talking about literally anything else but the triumphant return of THE EAST IS BIG, MAN?

    Preach, Alan. I want Sims at the 1! 😉

    Mitch
    Hart
    Randle
    Grimes
    Sims

    I’ll be in and out tonight, but I’m hoping for Grimes to excel again.

    And, if we are going to be limited to discussing what we are expert and/or professional in, like JK 47 in music and Alan in TV/film analysis, I’m staking my territory: literary analysis and human sexuality.

    The rest of you stay in your lanes!

    @ClashFan — then we’ll need your disquisition on Annie Ernaux’s Nobel 😉

    You know, I actually don’t think there would’ve been some kind of mutiny if Leon Rose said re: the cap space “we explored all options but didn’t feel there was an opportunity worth sacrificing our flexibility for. We will continue to explore options and if nothing materializes we have no problem giving our players a bonus.” The idea that this would’ve caused some untenable backlash sounds like the “you can’t rebuild in New York” thing that I also think is bunk.

    Strat is just dead wrong that you can ever justify a stupid expenditure by saying an expenditure “had to be made.”

    Simply not spending the cap space at all is always the bar a transaction has to beat. It’s not terribly high, but it’s also not actively damaging.

    “ So even when the outcome is exactly what YOU wanted, e.g. Mitch is entrenched as our starting C for years to come, you can’t just say “well that’s true…” and then maybe pivot to the things that indicate that Leon has in fact done to lay waste to our hopes.”

    Actually I can. Watch this:

    I think Leon Rose handled Mitchell Robinson’s contract situation well, but he has made a series of errors in other areas that has led me to the conclusion our overall position is mediocre-to-bad.

    I did it!

    KBA, I’ll give you a brief summary of my 882 page dissertation on Ernaux: a wannabe DH Lawrence with delusions of Margaret Atwoodian feminism.

    Don’t even get me started on the degradation of the Nobel in the Me Too generation! Actually, that might be out of my lane…

    Guys, Team Realism is a joke.

    I apologize if that wasn’t evident. I thought it would be obvious given my previous post.

    Also, you all are sensitive.

    Clash — LOL. Thx. TBH I haven’t read her book/s, yet, but I think I read some piece about the interesting ethical issues raised (as I recall) about her use of a lover (unnamed and then named) as the subject in two of them — a lover who did not wish to be so exposed.

    TNFH — You may be right that Leon would have been fine if he paid out the “excess” cap money to existing players. Like you, I do not believe this front office has a “Win now or die” directive from above. But surely some here believe they do, and, regardless of that, the Steven Smiths of the world would have been beating that drum after every single loss, “If only Leon had not *failed* to attract free agents.” From a former agent’s POV, getting the wrong guy might be better than getting *no* guy b/c if we suck “It’s his fault, not mine.” That’s craven, but I suspect that’s part of Leon’s thinking.

    I hope my last comment didn’t start a fire… unless it’s about music, in that case i really want that it did… You can’t start a fire without a spark… This gun’s for hire…

    Thanks KnickFanInCelticLand, it was just a shout out for you to know we didn’t forget you, i know you can’t give a timetable without all the details. 😉

    Even if there is news that we somehow traded RJ for Giannis straight up, I don’t expect any posts from cyber for the rest of the day….good luck cyber!

    You mean the World Cup? Portugal wasn’t playing today, only tomorrow.

    I was rooting for you guys, Bruno, too bad the penalty shootout went Croatia’s way. I was dreaming of a Brazil-Portugal final, that’d be amazing!

    Why are we talking about literally anything else but the triumphant return of THE EAST IS BIG, MAN?

    Hahaha, that’s funny, Alan. We’re getting near the all bigs lineup! 😛

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