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Knicks Morning News (2022.12.08)

  • Eden Hazard watches NBA clash between Atlanta Hawks and New York Knicks after retiring from Belgium team… – The US Sun
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 6:30:40 AM

    Eden Hazard watches NBA clash between Atlanta Hawks and New York Knicks after retiring from Belgium team…  The US Sun

  • Trade Ideas to Save the New York Knicks’ Season – Bleacher Report
    [news.google.com] — Thursday, December 8, 2022 12:15:15 AM

    Trade Ideas to Save the New York Knicks’ Season  Bleacher ReportKnicks’ Cam Reddish denies trade request, wasn’t given reason for removal from rotation  Yahoo SportsCan Knicks Make an Evan Fournier Trade Work?  Sports IllustratedWhat I’m hearing about Immanuel Quickley, Cam Reddish and Evan Fournier trade scenarios  The AthleticThe Knicks are looking to trade Cam Reddish after failing to find a role for him  SB NationView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Young Puts Up 19 pts vs Knicks – NBA.com
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 10:58:04 PM

    Young Puts Up 19 pts vs Knicks  NBA.com

  • Knicks on the Court: December 7 vs. Hawks Photo Gallery – NBA.com
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 10:39:08 PM

    Knicks on the Court: December 7 vs. Hawks Photo Gallery  NBA.com

  • Knicks Fans Rip Trae Young’s Shooting Woes vs. NY as Hawks Lose Sans Dejounte Murray – Bleacher Report
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 10:36:08 PM

    Knicks Fans Rip Trae Young’s Shooting Woes vs. NY as Hawks Lose Sans Dejounte Murray  Bleacher ReportKnicks takeaways from Wednesday’s 113-89 win over Hawks, including Julius Randle’s huge double-double  Yahoo SportsNot Today, Trae! Knicks Crush Hawks Behind Ruthless Randle’s Rout  Sports IllustratedQuentin Grimes making good on wild-card status by transforming Knicks on both ends  New York Post View Full Coverage on Google News

  • Tom Thibodeau’s tweaks pay off in Knicks’ stingy win over Hawks – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 10:25:00 PM

    Tom Thibodeau’s tweaks pay off in Knicks’ stingy win over Hawks  New York Post

  • New York Knicks Trounce Atlanta Hawks 113-89 – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 10:22:57 PM

    New York Knicks Trounce Atlanta Hawks 113-89  Sports IllustratedAtlanta Hawks at New York Knicks odds, picks and predictions  USA TODAY Sportsbook WireKnicks Game Tonight: Knicks vs Hawks Odds, Starting Lineup, Injury Report, Predictions, TV Channel for Dec. 7  Daily KnicksKnicks’ task: Stop former offseason target Dejounte Murray  New York Post Atlanta Hawks vs New York Knicks Predictions, Best Bets, Odds  World Sports NetworkView Full Coverage on Google News

  • Knicks’ Obi Toppin: Out for remainder of game – CBS Sports
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 9:07:00 PM

    Knicks’ Obi Toppin: Out for remainder of game  CBS Sports

  • Knicks’ Zach LaVine trade view after Donovan Mitchell fail, revealed – ClutchPoints
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 8:01:00 PM

    Knicks’ Zach LaVine trade view after Donovan Mitchell fail, revealed  ClutchPoints

  • Changing of the (Knicks) guard: Miles McBride’s time has come – Empire Sports Media
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 4:21:26 PM

    Changing of the (Knicks) guard: Miles McBride’s time has come  Empire Sports Media

  • Bet365 Promo Code: Bet $1, Win $200 on the New York Knicks | OddsChecker – OddsChecker
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 4:00:00 PM

    Bet365 Promo Code: Bet $1, Win $200 on the New York Knicks | OddsChecker  OddsChecker

  • This Knicks-Raptors Trade Features OG Anunoby – NBA Analysis Network
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 2:55:02 PM

    This Knicks-Raptors Trade Features OG Anunoby  NBA Analysis Network

  • Report: The Knicks Are Working On A Cam Reddish Trade With His Reps – UPROXX
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 2:41:03 PM

    Report: The Knicks Are Working On A Cam Reddish Trade With His Reps  UPROXX

  • Fifty Years After Their Last NBA Title, The Knicks Are Still Adrift – FiveThirtyEight
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 10:49:02 AM

    Fifty Years After Their Last NBA Title, The Knicks Are Still Adrift  FiveThirtyEight

  • Atlanta Hawks at New York Knicks Preview – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 9:20:39 AM

    Atlanta Hawks at New York Knicks Preview  Sports Illustrated

  • Why did New York Knicks legend Patrick Ewing have to testify in trial involving strip club: “I got aroused, they performed oral sex” – Sportskeeda
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, December 7, 2022 8:31:00 AM

    Why did New York Knicks legend Patrick Ewing have to testify in trial involving strip club: “I got aroused, they performed oral sex”  Sportskeeda

  • 223 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.12.08)”

    Copying forward…

    I’m a bit worried about the Obi injury – seems certainly to have been a non contact knee issue and was really laboring for a couple possessions before they took him out.

    In terms of on-court stuff – clearly the biggest problem on this team right now is not Julius Randle but one RJ Barrett. On his post-game pod, Macri asked the great question of whether this team would have a better record if Cam had played all of RJ’s minutes instead of RJ — and the answer to me is clearly yes. RJ literally has been one of the worst players in the NBA this year – I don’t think that is debatable. Without his pedigree and his “work ethic” and “dawg mentality”, he would clearly be an 8th or 9th man on this team.

    Regarding the defense – this is sort of what we saw with the Bulls last year when Lonzo and Caruso were guarding the POA – between Grimes, Quickley, and Deuce, teams are just really having a hard time getting into their offense. Some of it is missed shots and injured players, but with their ball pressure, these guys really speed up the offensive players and get them out of rhythm.

    Idea for Thibs is — with the 2nd grouping of Deuce, Quickley, RJ, Hart (and whoever subs for Obi) — let Quickley or Hartenstein run the offense instead of RJ. RJ as an offensive hub is far worse than Julius as a offensive hub.

    sorry, really hating on RJ today. Hopefully he proves me wrong but I’ve never been high on him. Not athletic, no touch around the rim, never going to be a good shooter. Honestly – hopefully Obi is only out a short time, but Rj’s future is as a small-ball 4 most likely – like Derozan was for SA, like Keldon Johnson was last year for SA (56% minutes at PF per B-R) – would minimize his lack of foot speed.

    The Obi injury sucks both for him and for the team. If you believe — and I’m not sure that I do — the front office wants to trade Julius now that his value has been rebuilt a bit, that is a lot harder to do if his backup is going to be on the shelf for a while.

    Also pessimistic about the Obi injury. His main/only asset is speed and agility, so bad knee is like the worst problem he could have. Hopefully it’s just a precaution that they shut him down, but I don’t have such confidence in NYK medical staff. Just bad news all around.

    Hey, great basketball-related news!

    @stevenportnoy
    BREAKING: Brittney Griner, the WNBA star who was sentenced to prison in Russia, has been freed in a prisoner-swap and is now in US custody, a US official tells @CBSNews

    I still don’t understand the Reddish situation. He should naturally get minutes if Obi is out. But from what is said above, Thibs isn’t considering that. It could be that he’s being held out of the lineup because of a pending trade but usually that only happens if the trade is imminent and he’s been out of the line up a while already.

    That’s great news indeed about Griner!

    Obi’s injury reminds me of my daughter’s. After an initial scare, she only missed a couple of weeks but is still affected by it now, 3 months later.

    Great to hear about Griner. What a disaster that was, and so unjust that we had to trade a convicted arms dealer for a basketball player who had some pot. Just ridiculous.

    Last 2 games felt good for sure- Murray injury notwithstanding lol.

    I don’t really have thoughts on the game other than I hope Obi’s ok. But..this front office man…

    I think they’re scared to make a move or too infatuated with Randle’s good flashes. I get it tho..who wouldn’t want a consistent 20-10-5 guy at PF? When his jumper is falling, he has the makings of a really good player. And he has the talent to do that. But- this front office needs to cut the bullshit and plant a foot in the ground and choose a direction. As much as I appreciate Randle’s ability to be a nightly threat, he has proven that he is not that direction. He’s been here 4 seasons or whatever, and the evidence suggests that either he needs to me moved, or we need another player who’s CLEARLY better than him. So why not move him while he’s not a net negative and continue finding out who can contribute consistently out of the young guys?

    The only guys on this team that pops for me consistently when I watch the games are Brunson, Sims, and Mitch. But even with Mitch, he’s got to be engaged to see that pop. Obi used to be that player, Grimes can be a guy like that with his aggressive defense and shooting, and RJ can be that guy with his ability to get to the rim. This FO has enough data on this roster to know who needs to be moved, and I think they don’t make the moves more out of fear than what they can get back. And I don’t suggest they make bad deals, I think they are over-valuing guys who should be traded.

    Look at it this way- we have an Obi to take Randle’s minutes at the 4, for better or worse. So make a move while you can. We have Quickley and Deuce to take Rose’s minutes. Make a move! Hell, even if you want to trade Mitch when he’s eligible- we have a Sims! Just make a fuckin move and go with it. Marrying yourself to Randle’s flashes with or without a superstar already is not the move. We know Brunson and RJ can get you 20ppg a night, so as long as the guys fight on defense- why worry about the offense without Randle? None of it makes sense. Or..package RJ in a deal to improve the team- but that’s probably harder than moving Randle right now.

    Whatever the case- just make a move and pick a roster direction. I’m not as worried as most about the coach. If Thibs can’t recover from the iffy start, worry about it at the end of the season just to give the new coach an actual chance. But..just do something. Show me a direction and I’m good with it. Don’t keep giving me confusion.

    Please

    I’m so glad that the Griner sitch appears to be finally getting resolved. That was such a crock of bullshit for her to go through. I’d recommend that she puts her head back together before she considers playing again. Can you imagine the emotional damage she’s had to suffer in that situation? I don’t care how resolved you are- if you go through what she’s gone through, something is gonna change.

    Continued prayers for BG

    Cam is a slow thinker/reacter. He makes plays on talent and length alone. He just seems incapable of maintaining a high intensity level on either end.

    Grimes, McBride and IQ are live wires. Such a pleasure to watch them play, and especially defend. Cam? Not so much. Again, you will NEVER see any of them put in an unprofessional stint like Cam did vs. Dallas.

    1. A healthy Mitch and Grimes seem to be making a huge difference on the defensive end (as we hoped). That makes me very happy.

    2. Grimes has such a quick release, he’s tough to defend. If he keeps hitting 3s and making plays to go along with the defense, he’s exactly what the doctor ordered.

    3. Winning despite Brunson stinking out the joint was a good sign even if the Hawks were banged up.

    4. Randle was very good. If he could bring consistent energy, especially on defense, he’d be a very good player even with the occasional lapses, but I still don’t love the fit with Mitch unless he becomes consistent from 3 and he’s not consistent on D.

    5. It’s a shame we don’t have a tall, long, athletic, young, two way player with upside to play SF so we could put RJ on the bench where he belongs on merit. Doh!!!

    6. If they attach Cam or Quick to Fournier just to move him and bring back some trash, I’m done. I’m fine with attaching a 2nd or even a couple of 2nds to Fournier. He’s a good pro and deserves better than purgatory, but you don’t give up good prospects and players to get that done.

    7. I’ve gone from being very enthusiastic about Hart, to thinking he’s a fine backup, to thinking he’s not very good defensively and maybe Sims should get a good look at the backup role. I’m not sure if he’s still hurting, but he’s not as good defensively as I thought when we signed him right now.

    8. We would be better off with virtually anyone starting other than RJ. If we still had Burks and he was starting, we probably would have won 2-3 more games.

    Rokas’ season in EL so far (11 games) has been underwhelming.
    When they got rid of Calathes there were expectations that Rokas can win the starting spot, but they signed Satoransky…

    Thanks for the Rokas’ news, Max. I think Barcelona is not interested in developing Rokas the right way (playing less than 14 mins in the EuroLeague), so it’ll be better to bring him in next offseason. Who would we want filling the roster right now, Rokas or Arch?

    It could be that he’s being held out of the lineup because of a pending trade but usually that only happens if the trade is imminent and he’s been out of the line up a while already.

    If he’s being traded with a team that wants to send back a player signed over the summer, you’ll only find out December 15. That’s when players signed in the summer can be traded.

    Can RJ really play the 4? He’s not that good defensively to hold his own against so much bigger/stronger guys, i think. If someone can change my opinion on this, i’d very much like to hear it.

    Edit: i think him playing the 3 is a mistake too, he’s only able to play the 2 and that’s it.

    Cyber, RJ’s physical strength is by far his best attribute as a player. He’ll be shorter than most of the guys he’d have to defend at PF, but they’ll also be slower than all the wings he’s struggled to keep up with this season.

    “Cam is a slow thinker/reacter. He makes plays on talent and length alone.”

    He’s unquestionably still raw and still does things that make you want to shoot yourself. He hasn’t matured as rapidly as the typical very young player. All the injuries probably contributed to that. The other thing is (and I know this sounds crazy), if you are capable of doing more things due to athleticism it sometimes makes it harder to figure out “when” to do what. He often reaches too far into his bag of tricks and ends up with a terrible result. You can outgrow that.

    The question is, do you think he’ll mature and reach his potential or go through his NBA thinking he’s better than is, giving half ass efforts, and never amounting to anything.

    I thought he made a lot of progress this year on both sides. I don’t think a handful of minutes in a Sunday game coming back from a recent injury disqualifies the progress he made before the injury. IMO, he outplayed RJ on both sides during that period.

    If they think he’s a permanent knucklehead and want to move on, I’m fine with a trade that brings back anything, but they gave up a pick for him and never really gave him a real shot. That’s bad enough. If they attach him to Fournier and take back trash the accumulation of small forgivable errors starts becoming less forgivable.

    I din’t think I’ve ever seen Cam get a tough rebound in traffic. Or even box someone out.

    If they want to bench RJ (which they don’t and clearly won’t) I would prefer that it be for Svi or someone out of the G-League. Cam is like two years of intensive physical and mental interventions away from being a guy that can justify more than a Ron Baker-level contract.

    I guess we’ll see, Alan, because i think he’s stronger if we’re talking about 2s, not 4s. He’ll probably be stronger if they’re playing small ball, but in that case he’ll be against a 3 that’s being deployed at 4 so the struggles he’s having playing the 3 will be there too. I’m open to try it, but i think it won’t go well. Of course, right now, everything we can try with RJ is a good idea, because he’s playing so bad that whatever he can give at a new position might be a good “shake things up” situation.

    Great game last night. Don’t care if the Hawks were banged up. They still had Trae and we shut him down. And we won despite Brunson having a bad game.

    More IQ, Grimes, Mitch and McBride is making a huge difference with the defense. We need McBride’s defense way more than we needed D Rose’s offense and now he has the chance to settle into a role, get consistent minutes and hopefully the offense will come around for him.

    You know, people rag on Thibs but last year our defense started out awful and ended up being top 10. And here we are again. Defense was bad and he’s made some tinkering to the line up here and there and now he’s seemed to have found something that addresses our biggest weakness (perimter defense). And now we have a stretch of an easier schedule to get into a groove.

    Sucks about Obi though. Hopefully it’s not too bad.

    Sorry, I’m not ready to give up on Randle. This dude carried us to the 4th seed and was just recently a 2nd team all NBA player. Knicks fans love to shit on their best player and take them for granted. This dude is an absolute beast when he has it going. Besides, he could continue to build his value if he plays like this all season. This time next year he could be very valuable to move. And honestly, Obi is now hurt and hasn’t even been that great.

    RJ is still the main issue now. But that’s ok. The energy of the team last night was so positive. I think the players playing realized they’ve figured some shit out.

    Here’s what we need to do. Trade Cam, Rose and Fournier and….wait for it…HART. Hart is cheap. A team could use him. Sims is waiting to take those minutes and has shown so much more this season. We can play Randle and Obi at the 4 and 5 some (and maybe some small ball RJ too). We can pick up another big off the scrap bin if needs be for insurance. But Hart is cheap enough and young enough he might net us something or at least could be attached with Reddish and Rose to get rid of Fournier. Clean house of the dead weight. Bring up some hungry G Leaguers. Pick up a vet on the waiver wire.

    Mediocrity? Half of tte league is mediocre right now! IF we win like 4 or 5 in a row we’d be the 4th seed. The season is so young and we got talent on this team. Grimes brings a good energy. If that shot is now falling? Watch out!

    If you look at the league. You got Boston, Bucks, Suns, Pelicans, Cavs, and the Grizzlies. Those top 6 teams are a step above everyone else. After that…you’ve got 17 teams. 17! That have records between 14-10 and 11-14. Hell, you can even throw in the Lakers and Bulls at 10-14 and that’s now 19 teams that are all like 4 games over or under 500.

    So everyone who laments out “mediocrity.” In this current landscape are you really going to try and convince me that some improvement from our young players and one big move to get a star couldn’t catapult this team to that upper level?

    Swift, what about Randle’s defense, will that lead us to the 4th seed? He’s one dimensional and we’ll never know when he’ll have the next mental breakdown. I don’t sh*t on our players, and was praising Randle on 2020-21 a lot, i really thought we had find a building block, but he’s much more a big risk than that. If we keep him, i hope you’re right, but i’ll be watching every game fearing when will bad Randle show up again.

    Randle’s obpm is now higher than it was in 20-21. His turnover % is at a career low. Offensively I don’t think he can play any better than he has the last month. If he had given half a crap on defense and rebounded at his career average he’d probably be posting close to a 4 bpm. The defensive effort the last couple of games was fine- he’s never not going to make some bonehead plays but when he stays focused and competes on the glass you can live with him on that end. Last night was peak Randle and peak Randle is a really nice player even with the defensive lapses.
    But even at his peak is he a guy you can build a consistent winner around? Do you see a Randle/Brunson led team making a conference finals? And of course Bad Randle- an absolutely soul-crushing team killer- always waits in the wings. So push comes to shove I’d still trade him for expirings. If RJ wasn’t here I might think differently but I think those two are a terrible fit- the polar opposite of synergy- and RJ looks untradeable right now. But the Mike K. conundrum still holds and he’s not going anywhere unless the team completely implodes.
    Edit: cyber said it much more succinctly

    “If they think he’s a permanent knucklehead and want to move on, I’m fine with a trade that brings back anything, but they gave up a pick for him and never really gave him a real shot. That’s bad enough. If they attach him to Fournier and take back trash the accumulation of small forgivable errors starts becoming less forgivable.”

    To me, using that CHA protected pick on Cam was a bigger error than the original pick swap. I would much rather have used the pick on a similar high upside 19-20yo than on a guy like Cam, and said so at the time. It wasn’t the worst flier in the world, but definitely a low percentage move, similar to Mudiay, Hezonja, Frank, Knox, DSJ, etc. The occasional flashes are tantalizing, but ultimately, it’s just not there and it’s a waste of time to wait around for it.

    Think about how Thibs praised Grimes yesterday. The most telling thing he said is that he practices the same way he plays. He made a veiled reference to “guys who practice at half speed and then it’s hard to ramp up.”

    Cam has enormous gifts, he has the body and skills of a potential superstar. But there’s an unfixable motor issue. He’s got a MiniCooper motor in a Corvette body. that car looks great when driving downhill on a mountain road. Once the terrain flattens out and goes uphill again it gets exposed for what it is.

    Since inserting Deuce, to go along with Grimes and Quick, we’ve held the opponents to 11-65 from the perimeter. Either the Invisible 6th Man is back, or Thibs knows what he’s doing. I’d still prefer a much more modern coach for our youth movement, but if Thibs at least can get back his defensive mojo, that’s better than what we were having recently.

    I’m gonna plead ignorance here, but what exactly is the point of trying to dump Randle? If we’re getting decent picks back, fine (and all I’ve heard about is picks out in 2028 or something) but if it’s just to shed salary, what would be the end game? There really aren’t any big time free agents on the horizon; cap space ain’t what it used to be

    Once again, I’m ready to be enlightened…

    “Swift, what about Randle’s defense, will that lead us to the 4th seed? He’s one dimensional and we’ll never know when he’ll have the next mental breakdown.”

    I think this is an overstatement. Randle has lapses and gaffes on D, but he’s far from one-dimensional. He is always in the mix defensively, guards 1-5, and is one of the best defensive rebounding forwards in the league. Maybe he is awful on 10 possessions a game, but he’s adequate to very good on the vast majority of them. He’s surely not being mercilessly hunted, like a certain sore-kneed backup would be if he were playing 30+ mpg.

    If he keeps on putting up the numbers that he is, he’s going to get all-star consideration, and deservedly so.

    “I’m gonna plead ignorance here, but what exactly is the point of trying to dump Randle? If we’re getting decent picks back, fine (and all I’ve heard about is picks out in 2028 or something) but if it’s just to shed salary, what would be the end game? There really aren’t any big time free agents on the horizon; cap space ain’t what it used to be

    Once again, I’m ready to be enlightened…”

    My opinion is that there is a lingering, even entrenched, disgust with Randle’s performance and demeanor starting from the ATL series and carrying through all of last year.

    The rhetoric was pretty extreme. Most Detrimental to Winning! Selfish. Lunatic! Physically diminished! Incapable of changing his game! Not cut out for New York! Could only play well in empty arenas! Worst contract in the NBA! Horrific defender! Holding the Great Obi Toppin back! Dump him at all costs, even a first rounder!

    And all of that before his extension even kicked in. Before he had a chance to share the floor with a decent PG. Before he had a chance to process what happened last year and work on things during the offseason.

    I think a lot of discerning Knicks fans were traumatized by him last year, expecially in the face of his extension. And like a trauma victim, there’s still PTSD to deal with before he can be viewed objectively.

    Right now he is earning every penny of his extension, and probably outperforming it. As I indicated previously (only to be scoffed at) he is playing at roughly the same level as Brunson. The numbers get closer and closer. And they are making the same money. Yet folks will laud Brunson as the second coming while hoping Randle’s good play will make it easier to dump him for peanuts, or even with an asset attached.

    Have at it, haterz!

    Cybersoze, I understand your point, but if Cam is being held out of the lineup for that it means that they prearranged a deal two weeks in advance. Some other team must really like him. Color me skeptical, but I guess it could be so.

    “I’m gonna plead ignorance here, but what exactly is the point of trying to dump Randle?”

    I have nothing against Randle and enjoy watching him when he’s playing well. Definitely had fun at the Garden last night.

    The reason we should trade him is because we should generally be looking to trade present wins, which are doing absolutely nothing for us, for future assets. There’s a minuscule chance Julius Randle is on the next contending Knicks team, so we might as well get assets for him if possible (still doubt it, but now wouldn’t be shocked).

    Not much more to it than that. I give him tons of credit for making material changes to his game that have led to substantial improvement, but what long-term goal for the Knicks is that even serving?

    “My opinion is that there is a lingering, even entrenched, disgust with Randle’s performance and demeanor starting from the ATL series and carrying through all of last year.”

    My sense is people on this board have a good understanding of concepts like the win curve and aren’t convinced Julius Randle leading us to a ~.500 record serves a long-term goal. YMMV.

    “As I indicated previously (only to be scoffed at) he is playing at roughly the same level as Brunson.”

    You were scoffed at because you compared the efficiency of a high-usage point guard to that of a high-usage power forward. It was a bad comparison and still is. Again, if a first baseman and a catcher have similar offensive stats, that does not mean they are equally valuable.

    I think it’s somewhat telling that everyone on Earth knows the Knicks want to trade Cam Reddish, and that they don’t think playing Cam Reddish will serve that goal.

    If it were totally up to me I guess he’d be playing because I don’t particularly care that he would probably play badly, but I view the whole thing as pretty low stakes at this point.

    We’ve already made the massive screw ups e.g. turning our noses at Bones Hyland et al. and then trading what little we had left for Cam. Both of those moves were obviously dumb at the time and both now look even dumber, but they already happened. I don’t see anything we do now as having much in the way of implications for the team going forward.

    Cam is probably not going to be a good player for us or anyone else, and playing him probably wouldn’t boost his trade value.

    It’s true that there’s a strong case to be made that playing him at the expense of RJ would lead to another win or two over the course of the season, but I mean, we’ve known for years that the Knicks intend to play RJ even if he sucks. They’ve taken minutes from much better players than Cam Reddish pursuant to that.

    I don’t know if I’m channeling M Bunge or Strat here, but if you take away the biased prism through which you have received this Brittany Griner story, what actually happened was:

    The man who was once #2 to Osama bin Laden on America’s most wanted list, the man who made blood diamonds bloody by supplying arms to African warlords, is now free to supply arms again to deathmongers and sanctioned governments. Many people will die because Brittany Griner brought a weed pen to Moscow, where she was getting paid by Putin to sportswash Russian atrocities that included the murder and enslavement of countless innocent people.

    Maybe keep that in mind before you pop the next bottle of champagne.

    “The reason we should trade him is because we should generally be looking to trade present wins, which are doing absolutely nothing for us, for future assets. There’s a minuscule chance Julius Randle is on the next contending Knicks team, so we might as well get assets for him if possible (still doubt it, but now wouldn’t be shocked).”

    This is a curious statement, put politely.

    Why do you consider the chances that Randle playing like a borderline all-star would be part of the next contending Knicks team “miniscule?” And even beyond that, is there really any downside to having an all-star (or even all-NBA) level Julius Randle, 28 years old and making less than half of what max players at his age and experience make, playing winning basketball?

    Swift, what about Randle’s defense, will that lead us to the 4th seed?

    Randle’s defense led us to the 4th seed 2 seasons ago. He was the starting power forward on the top rated defense in the league that season. No one player will cause a defense to be good or bad unless they are just truly elite. Randle is a fine defender when engaged. He tends to be engaged when the other players around him are also playing good defense and engaged.

    When he’s playing with Grimes or Bullocks instead of Fournier, he’s fine.

    Brunson is a far worse defense for his position but he’s the shiny new toy and he’s a PG, so he gets a pass but Randle doesn’t because he got mad at fans once who boo’d him in front of his son.

    And we’re literally like one game out of the 4th seed right now. So you’re statement is completely wrong, based not only on past examples (when we were the 4th seed and the top defense in the league) but also by the fact that we’re literally only like a game out of the 4th seed RIGHT NOW.

    But yeah let’s dump the 28 year old former second team all NBA player who chose to sign here as a free agent and chose to stay here and never demanded a trade even when fans were booing him so we can start a guy who is a worse defender and worse offensive player and isn’t even that much younger than Randle because he dunks cool sometimes and seems like a nice guy.

    Grabbing defensive rebounds is part of playing defense because it ends the defensive possession and Randle grabs a ton of boards.

    “You were scoffed at because you compared the efficiency of a high-usage point guard to that of a high-usage power forward. It was a bad comparison and still is. Again, if a first baseman and a catcher have similar offensive stats, that does not mean they are equally valuable.”

    Where did I say “equally valuable?” I said “playing at a similar level statistically. Similar usage. Similar efficiency. Similar shot profile.”

    PGs are by definition more valuable than PFs. That’s a given. So why diminish what Randle is doing relative to Brunson because he doesn’t play the same position?

    How is Brunson doing in his realm of responsibility compared to Randle? Where does Brunson rank among starting PGs compared to where Randle ranks among starting PFs?

    “But yeah let’s dump the 28 year old former second team all NBA player who chose to sign here as a free agent and chose to stay here and never demanded a trade even when fans were booing him so we can start a guy who is a worse defender and worse offensive player and isn’t even that much younger than Randle because he dunks cool sometimes and seems like a nice guy.”

    you go, swifty!

    I want to like Randle (but similar to TNFH, don’t seem he as integral to the hypothetical contender team that is coming in a few years or so)…but I would pump the brakes on extolling his virtues as to me…his mental game is so precarious…just a twinge of adversity and he will/can/might implode for a few weeks again….I want to (and perhaps other teams in the league who may think they covet him) see some sustained play where he appears to keep his emotions in check and his production in a not so volatile array …i would be happy with a 2 good/1 bad output…then perhaps we can get some value for him…but …I don’t see much long term benefit from him with this franchise…

    and I with poindexter yet again on above….just make the moves and take a shot…the FO seems paralyzed…

    ***we had to trade a convicted arms dealer for a basketball player who had some pot. Just ridiculous.***

    Was the arms dealer on an expiring contract?

    “Why do you consider the chances that Randle playing like a borderline all-star would be part of the next contending Knicks team “miniscule?””

    The answer(s) to this question seem so obvious I’m not sure I’m understanding it correctly.

    The Knicks are currently about .500 and there are absolutely no immediate, substantial upgrades on the horizon. Free agency is largely defunct and even if we make a major trade, that alone ain’t gonna make us contenders. Even if we hit a home run in the draft, that will almost certainly take a few seasons to actually present itself as an upgrade to the team.

    What on Earth is the series of events that leads us to contention during the years Julius Randle is signed with us?

    “And even beyond that, is there really any downside to having an all-star (or even all-NBA) level Julius Randle, 28 years old and making less than half of what max players at his age and experience make, playing winning basketball?”

    Very much so…we accumulate wins to no clear end. This stuff is all very well understood and has been discussed here ad nauseam. I mean, you know all of it.

    There is of course also upside to him playing very well: we can trade him!

    “How is Brunson doing in his realm of responsibility compared to Randle? Where does Brunson rank among starting PGs compared to where Randle ranks among starting PFs?”

    Brunson’s points per shot attempt is in the 81st percentile among point guards and Randle’s is in the 42nd percentile among bigs.

    To be clear, I think Randle is playing well. He’s just not *especially* efficient among 4/5s, which is what makes a potential trade hard to figure out despite him being very skilled (IMO).

    There’s also a much simpler case for trading Randle if you think we can without attaching sweetener: we know that’s an opportunity that can disappear very quickly. The risk that this happens seems much more serious than the risk that we trade him at something below his peak value.

    The odds seem low to me that Obi is ever going to be as good a player as “good Randle.” Whether or not Randle will remain “good Randle” is an open question, but he’s very much “good Randle” right now.

    It’s a welcome development. If the idea is to contend for a low playoff seed, I’d rather actually get the low playoff seed than finish 11th in the conference or whatever.

    Cam is a mirage, a fungible player. He’ll kick around the league for years and probably rack up many thousands of minutes before he’s done, but he’s a Ronnie Brewer type player. A poor man’s Ronnie Brewer, really.

    So, a few questions for this Thursday morning:

    We’ve just handily beaten two teams that are second tier (or at least a tier above what most people would have put the Knicks), albeit with various of their players out with injuries. And we held them to only 89 and 92 points. Are we now kind of good?

    Are the wins entirely because of the insertion of Miles “Deuce” McBride into the rotation and the terror induced by his ‘Wakanda Forever’ defensive stance?

    If a certain player stops playing like Kevin Knox on fentanyl for 30+ minutes a game, how good could we be?

    Yeah, Randle’s mental game is precarious. But Obi literally has shown nothing to even sniff at Randle’s ceiling. NOTHING.

    Plus, as has been pointed out many times. Randle’s salary percentage of the cap, especially when the cap goes up, will be very very reasonable. Like a good #3 option reasonable.

    And for everyone who said Randle can’t accept being second fiddle or wahtever. He literally is doing that this season with Brunson.

    As far as being stuck at 500 with no big free agents or trades in sight. Um maybe look further than one week ahead? Things change ALL THE TIME in the NBA. When The Rockets were winning 60 plus gams with Harden and CP3 a few years ago did anyone think less than 2 seasons later both of them would be gone?

    Plus, 18 other teams right now are in the murky middle. Let’s say RJ gets out of his funk and starts playing to the ceiling we’ve seen him play at before. Or IQ’s shot starts falling. Or what we saw from Grimes last night is only the beginning. Who is to say we can’t catupult above these other teams? We have a roster almost completely made up of young players and multiple first round picks to fuck around with. Teams are gonna blow shit up. Good players are gonna want out for whatever reason. We could hit on a draft pick late in the first round.

    SHIT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME IN THE NBA THAT IS UNEXPECTED.

    And yes, I know this doesn’t sound like a game plan. But “luck” is really just being prepared to take advantage of a good opportunity when it presents itself. If you aren’t prepared, luck won’t happen. We’re in a situation to take advantage of an opportunity now. We’re respectable. WE got a roster full of young players. We got multiple first round picks to deal with. Don’t let the Donovan Mitchell foolishness get you down.

    Patience. Just keep rolling with what we got for now. Trade some of the dead weight if you can. Let Thibs tinker and get things sorted out.

    Randle’s been a Knick for four seasons, and has been hot garbage for half the time (and who knows how he’ll end this season). Selling him off when they actually can is the best bet for them longterm. Always better to sell early than late. Unless you think that this current Knicks team can be a real contender, of course. But since it can’t, get out from Randle’s contract as soon as you can. Because they certainly can’t trade RJ the way he’s playing.

    But yes, it’s obviously much more likely that what Mike noted is going to happen, which is that they’ll only want to trade him when he has no trade value. That’s an important part of the Knicks organization, and we’re not going to be kicking that to the curb.

    He’s currently in the 4th season that’s not even half way done and the first season was cut short by covid. But don’t let facts get in the way of your narrative!

    Hoping that we luck into contention despite there being no clear avenue there is certainly an option. It’s unlikely but not impossible.

    It’s also just not what a smart team would do. This all comes down to probabilities and we’re far, far more likely to contend if we start from scratch than if we roll with this iteration.

    Sam Presti blew up a 49 win Thunder team because he thought they were too far from contention to justify continuing to pursue present wins. We’re a ~41 win team.

    “He’s currently in the 4th season that’s not even half way done and the first season was cut short by covid. But don’t let facts get in the way of your narrative!”

    Is the idea here that Randle was inevitably going to salvage his terrible 2019-2020 if he was given 16 more games?

    Don’t know about that one, chief.

    Leon signed Randle to play exactly the way he’s playing. I mean sure, I’d love to trade him and do a real rebuild because common sense and all, but I’ll settle for him not stinking out the joint in lieu of that.

    This team needs more reliable three point shooting, could use a good backup PG, and overall needs to upgrade the wing position, bring in a few more switchable defenders with length who aren’t Cam Reddish. That’s what I’d be focusing on next since we’re doing the incremental improvement thing here.

    The team wouldn’t be meaningfully better if you sapped RJ & Cam’s minutes. Cam also really sucks. He doesn’t pass, rebound or play team defense and he’s a ‘shooter’ who is shooting 31% from 3. Maybe we have one more win with him instead of RJ, or maybe Cam is even worse if you give him a bigger role.

    A young team learning how to play and hopefully win together. Two previously rotation vets now sit and watch from the sideline. This is terrible news. But why stop with Randle? Let’s trade all of them and make sure it’s for nothing!

    Raven’s question is good–what’s this team’s ceiling if RJ can engage in some basketball related harm reduction?

    It’s a bit hard to answer because as I’ve said before I have difficulty fathoming what “good” or even “not bad” RJ looks like production wise. Let’s say he puts up a .540 TS% or so for the rest of the season, I guess.

    I think that would put us somewhere in the 44 wins range assuming Randle doesn’t fall off and Grimes keeps producing, though our actual record might be worse since we’ve already played a lot of the season.

    We’re probably due for some positive regression from 3, and maybe the addition of Deuce and Grimes to the rotation let’s the defense creep up.

    Our ceiling is probably looks something like being in the bottom end of the top 12 in both offensive and defensive rating, which sounds like a 44ish win team to me.

    Randle is playing like an above average NBA player, which is great. He’s helping the team, and I’m sure he’s technically overpaid, but that doesn’t really matter. If you pay the 70th best player in the league like he’s the 50th best it’s not going to really hurt your team.

    By EPM Randle’s the 40th most productive player in the league, and there are 50 guys making more money than him. I don’t think the exact specifics matter, but he’s giving us roughly what we’re paying him to.

    Can Obi ever reach those lofty hights? I think he was basically that good last year. This season he’s been weird. His FTr has collapsed, and his finishing at the rim is much worse but he’s become a good 3 point shooter (maybe). If the shooting is for real-and he’s always been a good FT shooter-he certainly has the tools to be a very good offensive player.

    “A young team learning how to play and hopefully win together. Two previously rotation vets now sit and watch from the sideline. This is terrible news. But why stop with Randle? Let’s trade all of them and make sure it’s for nothing!”

    A very weird, Knickerblogger specific phenomenon is that the “optimists” are also dicks a lot of the time.

    If Grimes is for real it changes the floor and your a good switchable 3 away from 2nd tier in the east while you wait for a bigger splash. So who are some wings we should target is the question? Let’s get the trade machine out!

    via Fred Katz’s twitter:

    ‘After that rough loss to Dallas on Saturday, Knicks ranked 26th in the NBA in points allowed per possession.

    Today, they’re up to 18th. Two hard-nosed games helped them rise eight spots.’

    Pretty wild what a few fairly lucky games can do even 20 games into the season

    “Sam Presti blew up a 49 win Thunder team because he thought they were too far from contention to justify continuing to pursue present wins. We’re a ~41 win team.”

    Sam Presti? You mean the guy who preferred Kendrick Perkins to James Harden?

    After the Thunder lost all-time great in his prime Kevin Durant for nothing under his brilliant leadership, they continued to win in the 40’s for 4 more years before engaging in a tank. Oh, and they benefitted immensly from having SGA into their lap at #11 after some stupid team drafting above them preferred his 3-on-3 whiz college teammate. They are in their 3rd year of tanking and are at least 3 years from being a contender.

    So I’d be hesitant to hold a guy who is on a 10-year rebuild plan up as a paragon of effective GMing. He’s got plenty of warts.

    just from watching the beginning of the game, heck, pre-game warmups, it really looked to me:

    like julius actually had a good night’s sleep…he was crazy bouncing and smiling…

    i don’t know, maybe it’s meds 🙂

    i think the word for this situation, regarding this particular player is – mercurial

    “Maybe we have one more win with him instead of RJ, or maybe Cam is even worse if you give him a bigger role.”

    Bet the house on door #2

    10-year rebuild plan? The Thunder won 50 games (accounting for the shorter season) two seasons ago. They then had two bad seasons and are now roughly as good as us.

    Color me skeptical, but I guess it could be so.

    Yeah, some team wanting Cam that bad doesn’t seem likely, i admit. But December 15 will open more opportunities, maybe it’s the Knicks that are waiting for it.

    Was the arms dealer on an expiring contract?

    that’s funny…

    truth be told – within a year that guy will be ruining more lives around the world…

    lesson for all – don’t bring drugs in to countries that don’t give a fuck about celebrity status, money, or any kind of just laws (unless it serves their purpose)…

    glad she’s back, ridiculous mistake…hard to imagine though that was the first time she’s brought a bunch (not sure how many grams of oil she had) of weed in to russia…

    chances are good, herself and others, now will not make the same mistake…

    i almost want to spend time finding out why this individual is called “the merchant of death”, not going to bother though…i’ll simply assume the worst, and probably underestimate just how horrible an individual that guy is…

    ***I think that would put us somewhere in the 44 wins range assuming Randle doesn’t fall off***

    Does it also assume that the best players on the other team continue to not play?

    I know that Z-Man’s Sam Presti roast was meant as a joke, but it’s so chock full o’ errors that the punchline got a little lost.

    oh shit, just saw griner had less than a full gram of cannabis oil – .7 grams…

    for you non-smoking folks – cannabis oil for vapes are sold in .5 and 1.0 gram amounts…

    so basically she had a new half gram cartridge and a used half gram cartridge with her…

    i’m a heavy smoker, if all i had to use was vape stuff – .7 grams would last maybe a month if i was stretching it out…

    Selling relatively high on Randle is not a Leon option. They are clearly trying to be as good as possible at all times.

    But hopefully he’s now seeing that 4 of his (made) draft picks—Obi, Quickley, Grimes and now Deuce—have made Thibs’ tight 9-man rotation. So maybe it makes sense to let our scouts draft people?

    “A very weird, Knickerblogger specific phenomenon is that the “optimists” are also dicks a lot of the time.”

    We are a deeply cynical, sardonic, sarcastic group, regardless of opinion or position. It’s why I’m here.

    (As long as it doesn’t bubble over into childish tribal enmity, of course…)

    I think some of you are rooting for Obi and wanting Randle to do bad, and others rooting for Randle and wanting Obi to do bad. I’m not at all that way, i want both of them to do well and be great players, if they can.
    I’ll try to answer about my view of Randle, and now with Brunson comparisons, it looks like to defend Randle any player can be on the line of fire. Brunson is great and it’s not because he is the shiny new toy, it’s because he’s been great for his entire NBA career. You can hide a PG that’s bad at defense, you can’t hide a PF that’s bad at defense.
    In my opinion Randle has been bad at defense this season, and yeah i know rebounds are part of the defense, but Fournier has steals going for him (also part of the defense) and now it looks like Thibs is doing what i was saying for a long time. Also does anyone sees what i’m seeing, Randle steals rebounds from everybody, including Quick that is another player that tries a lot to stuff his stats. Brunson usually doesn’t go for the rebound if a teammate is next to him, he doesn’t need the stat and his teammate will pass him the ball rightaway so why try to get there before him? This to say that at least 2 or 3 rebounds a game that Randle has, were probably rebounds that a teammate should have. Probably you guys are more confident that bad Randle won’t show up again, if i felt that way, maybe i could defend him more, but i don’t. That’s just a feeling, no need to try to attack me for thinking this way. One thing i know about the Randle and Brunson comparisons, if Randle had the bad shooting night that Brunson had yesterday, he’d have ended the game with at least 6 turnovers, half would be hair pulling inducing, and he’d spend the whole game arguing with the refs. And maybe getting a technical in the process. And that’s what doesn’t bring me confidence about him, even when he’s playing well, if he has a bad game he loses his temper every time. But as i said, i’m liking that he’s playing better on offense, and as long as he’s here i’ll be rooting for him to play like he played in 2020-21. I just said i’d prefer to trade him because i don’t believe this to happen, and even if it happens i don’t believe it’ll be sustainable. So if i’m wrong, great.

    So much to love in this thread. A Ronnie Brewer shoutout!

    “PGs are by definition more valuable than PFs. That’s a given.”

    This has all the classic elements of Z-Man take. I love it so much.

    Quentin’s night was pretty inspirational. Kind of buzzing about it. I just really enjoy watching him play. The eye is naturally drawn to how well he moves without that ball. And he made a little move on the baseline early in the game where he ended up drawing a foul that was such a pleasant shock. He was so much quicker with the ball than I expected. And he hit his shots which is also important.

    So I’d be hesitant to hold a guy who is on a 10-year rebuild plan up as a paragon of effective GMing. He’s got plenty of warts.

    OKC is currently in year three of their rebuild. They held onto SGA, and since then, have added:

    Josh Giddey, Jalen Williams, Lu Dort, Chet Holmgren, Poku, Ousmane Dieng, Jeremiah Robinson-Earl

    They have also acquired TEN surplus first round picks over the next five drafts, giving them some pretty good ammunition if they felt inclined to make a trade for a star. That’s ten picks in addition to the five they already own, so they have fifteen first round picks in the next five drafts.

    This is in year three of the rebuild. They’re also not terrible right now, in fact they are one game behind the Knicks in league standings.

    rEbUiLdInG tAkEs ToO lOnG dOe ThE hYbRiD mEtHoD iS wHeRe It’S aT

    oh shit, just saw griner had less than a full gram of cannabis oil – .7 grams…

    It’s gross, and that’s with assuming that we believe anything Russia said about her arrest, which I’m not about to do.

    When you try to think about the Knicks’ odds of contending in the next ten years or so, OKC and the Pelicans really make you depressed.

    OKC is about as good as us without the most recent #2 overall pick and can absolutely drown us in assets if they want to get involved in the next star trade.

    The Pelicans *currently* have the 2nd best net rating in the sport, and still can put together a better trade package than us–they have the Lakers’ next two firsts unprotected!

    If you’re really all in on the “we’ll trip and fall into contention” plan, these are the kinds of situations you have to think the Knicks can compete with. I simply do not see the path.

    He’s currently in the 4th season that’s not even half way done and the first season was cut short by covid. But don’t let facts get in the way of your narrative!

    What’s so particularly odd about that retort is that I’m giving him this season as “good” despite it only being a little over a quarter of the way through. So Randle is getting the vast benefit of the doubt by saying he’s been good half the time, as currently, he’s been bad for more than half the time he’s been a Knick. So it’s such a pointless area to try to quibble with, when I was being more generous to him by saying half the time he’s been hot garbage as a Knick.

    Russia is a pretty gnarly place. I’ve been there a few times, and every time I couldn’t wait to get the fuck out of there. The corruption and desperation smacks you in the face the moment you get off the plane.

    We met lots of lovely people there too, and “this place sucks” was a universal theme among them.

    Shai was not drafted by OKC, he was drafted by the Clippers and sent to OKC in the PG13 deal.

    “10-year rebuild plan? The Thunder won 50 games (accounting for the shorter season) two seasons ago. They then had two bad seasons and are now roughly as good as us.”

    Look, I know Presti is a savvy GM and would love to have him here instead of Leon. But he’s definitely had some blunders along the way, including possibly the Mother of All Blunders. And there is zero chance that Dolan would hire someone who was going to tear the team down.

    It should also be noted that Presti traded for Paul George (and gave up a player used to acquire Hali) but was able to turn him around for more assets than any of our current players could bring back, but still had to get lucky with SGA evolving from a good prospect to an all-NBA stud. He also had Russell Westbrook, for whom he got a monster haul based on perception over reality. Having guys like prime PG13 and Westbrook jumpstarts a rebuild, just like having Spida and Rudy to pawn off.

    But that’s not what Presti intended when he lost Durant. He tried like hell to avoid a full rebuild, even though there was zero chance of his team contending for anything. Unless you think they gave up Sabonis and Oladipo for Paul George with the idea of trading him. If I recall correctly, most observers here felt that Presti got the worst of that deal.

    A very weird, Knickerblogger specific phenomenon is that the “optimists” are also dicks a lot of the time.

    I’m tired of having anything moderately joyful or thoughtful labeled as optimism madness in identical 2348234056 posts. The labelers, such as you, are the dicks.

    Noble is one of our best posters, he’s not a dick, and is indeed very far from it. He gives thoughtful and elaborated answers. I’d very much like to be able to write what i think the way Noble does. I don’t know if you’re a new user or a user that adopted a new name for the new site, but if you can elaborate more on your opinions maybe you’ll be surprised with people’s answers. Some will be in favor of your ideas, some will be against, just like everything in life. There’s no need to write brief comments usually attacking other posters or opinions without contributing to the debate.

    not to pry or get too personal JK – how many countries have you visited over the years?

    do audiences react differently dependent on where the show is being played at?

    basically, are like american crowds different from russian crowds from japanese crowds, etc.?

    sadly, i’m even more curious now if you run in to pot heads everywhere? 🙂

    Let’s table Randle and talk about something we can all be irrationally positive about- Grimes! Beautiful stroke, timely cuts, and that defense! Oh that defense! He just faced down a murderers row of Trae, Ja, SGA, Donovan Mitchell, and Luka and didn’t blink. Do we have our own Mikal Bridges?

    Pretty wild what a few fairly lucky games can do even 20 games into the season

    The Cavs & Hawks shot under 20% on 71 3PAs over those two games.

    I’m beginning to Invisible Sixth Man is actually the backbone of Thibs’ entire defensive philosophy.

    Let’s table Randle and talk about something we can all be irrationally positive about- Grimes! Beautiful stroke, timely cuts, and that defense! Oh that defense! He just faced down a murderers row of Trae, Ja, SGA, Donovan Mitchell, and Luka and didn’t blink. Do we have our own Mikal Bridges?

    Grimes is a blast to watch!

    I’ve been pretty much everywhere in Europe, Australia/New Zealand a bunch of times, Japan a few times, South America several times. I’ve been to Israel once, Canada and Mexico a million times. Other than the two trips to Japan, I haven’t traveled to Asia, and would love to be able to do that someday. Same with Africa.

    The audiences in Eastern Europe are rowdy and enthusiastic, and know how to have a good time. It’s a general rule of thumb that the farther away you get from the big cosmopolitan cities, the more appreciative the audiences are, that’s true here in the US as well.

    The shows in Moscow were interesting. The first time we went, we played at a big outdoor nightclub, and it was a very well-to-do audience, everybody seemed to be wealthy and attractive, and older than our typical audience. Then we played an unannounced show at a small, dingy club the following night, and it was all the local punk rock kids, all of whom said there was no way they would have been able to afford to go to the “regular” show.

    Some of our best audiences were in places like Katowice, Talinn (great city), Warsaw, Belgrade, places like that. A lot of those shows have blended into one memory: ultra dreary venue in an industrial part of town, nothing to do all day long, slow WiFi, dodgy kebab dinner, packed sweaty show at 10PM.

    The audiences in Japan are a trip, they all arrive at the show right at the time that’s printed on the ticket. We were on a bill in Tokyo with Deerhunter and Blonde Redhead, and we were first on and played really early, and figured the place would be half empty, but no– it was at capacity by the time we played our first note. Then the audience tends to sit there in orderly fashion and applaud politely after each song.

    Grimes was fantastic last night.

    Honestly, we really should not get derailed with all this Randle talk right now after a night when Grimes did so well and McBride hit a three pointer.

    The addition of Grimes into the starting line up and McBride into the back up PG role now means our team is almost entirely made up of young players we drafted except for Brunson (25) and Randle (28).

    And this is why I get on the negative nancies so hard. IF I come acrss as a dick, I don’t mean to. But it honestly baffles me how negative some people are when we have a rotation comprised of pretty much all dudes we drafted and all young. That hasn’t happened with The Knicks in my entire life time (and I’m in my mid 40s and have followed the team since the early 90s).

    I don’t know. It just seems to focus too much on salary cap hits an asset accumulation and not on BASKETBALL. Like it doesn’t matter right now if McBride puts up no stats. He helps the team’s perimeter defense, which is what we need to be a better TEAM THIS SEASON.

    And meaningless wins is such an insulting term to fans. How is losing year after year meaningful. Why is making the playoffs but losing early a bad outcome?

    Why are we 1 percenting fandom. Either your team is a championship contender or else you are worthless. Either you are a billionaire and super famous or your life is meaningless. That is no way to go through life!

    OKC is about as good as us without the most recent #2 overall pick and can absolutely drown us in assets if they want to get involved in the next star trade.

    Yeah, but they’re still Oklahoma City.

    rEbUiLdInG tAkEs ToO lOnG dOe ThE hYbRiD mEtHoD iS wHeRe It’S aT

    We are also in year 3 of our rebuild under Leon. We’ve had a more successful 3 seasons record wise than they have, made the playoffs, added the best free agent of the summer last year, are better than the yare now and have a rotation that is made up entirely of players we drafted except for two guys, one of whom is 28 and the other one is 25. And we have 7 picks in the next 5 drafts.

    OKC’s situation isn’t better than ours. They just have more picks. Which they have to have because no star will ever willingly sign there as a free agent.

    Some of us just like to have something you can dream on. “Championship or bust” isn’t my mentality, but REAL contention, like 1990’s Knicks-style contention, is something I could get into. I don’t really see that kind of potential with this particular group of players nor with this front office. If this group tops out at “never won a playoff series” I’m going to consider that a pretty disappointing outcome even if there are a few low-40ish seasons mixed in there. Maybe they’ll pleasantly surprise me– I certainly hope they do.

    I think there’s also a lot of frustration from Team Pessimist because we keep hearing “Dolan won’t rebuild” and “rebuilding takes too long” and then we pull up the Franchise Index page on b-r and it’s literally decades of losing basketball. A new regime comes in, and… once again refuses to rebuild. It’s a lot like rooting for the Wilpon-era Mets, where your hands are tied in terms of sports decisions because the owner sucks so bad.

    Considering that this is the path we have chosen though, I’d rather see this team win some games and try to establish itself as a mid-tier seed than sink into 35-win mediocrity and pick 8th again. They’re never going to do it my way, so they might as well be successful at doing it their way.

    Our SRS is 0.33 (15th)

    OKC’s is -1.79 (21st)

    Pointing to 2 teams with more picks than us still leaves 27 other teams with fewer picks.

    Let’s check back in a couple of years and see how we’re doing, and how OKC is doing, and see if it turns out to be true that their situation is better than ours. Bookmark’d.

    Our SRS is 0.33 (15th)

    OKC’s is -1.79 (21st)

    Pointing to 2 teams with more picks than us still leaves 27 other teams with fewer picks.

    Whose situation would you rather be in, as a team? The Knicks or the Thunder?

    I’m tired of having anything moderately joyful or thoughtful labeled as optimism madness in identical 2348234056 posts. The labelers, such as you, are the dicks.

    so to combat the devastating lack of joy and thoughtfulness you’ve decided to conduct 100pct of your posting here as a mewling complaintbot

    Considering that this is the path we have chosen though, I’d rather see this team win some games and try to establish itself as a mid-tier seed than sink into 35-win mediocrity and pick 8th again. They’re never going to do it my way, so they might as well be successful at doing it their way.

    Co-sign. Let’s see what this nine man rotation got. The more wins the more off-season value our assets will have anyway.

    Championship or bust?

    My guy, I want a team that can WIN A SINGLE PLAYOFF SERIES. Is it really so unreasonable that I don’t get much satisfaction out of rooting for a team that cannot do that, and doesn’t seem to have a clear plan as to how to get good enough to do that?

    “OKC’s situation isn’t better than ours.”

    In the spirit of trying to model good behavior and not be a dick, I will simply say that my guess is 30 GMs and 100% of their staffs disagree.

    so to combat the devastating lack of joy and thoughtfulness you’ve decided to conduct 100pct of your posting here as a mewling complaintbot

    Hey, he also wished everyone a Happy Thanksgiving that one time!

    Whose situation would you rather be in, as a team? The Knicks or the Thunder?

    if anyone would say Knicks…they have not spent anytime either watching the thunder play or understand the other assets they have in their pocket…or both

    Selling him off when they actually can is the best bet for them longterm.

    You should have heard the shit I got from local Seahawks fans when I said that trading Russell Wilson for a huge draft haul was probably the best possible outcome for his Seattle tenure short of building a time machine to let Marshawn Lynch have three chances to blast the goal line. Can’t say I saw him ranking [checks Pro Football Reference] 30th of 33 qualified in QBR, but yeah, selling high on questionable assets is generally pretty smart.

    Or maybe we could hold onto Randle and see if he outperforms the [checks BBRef] $81M he’s due from now until his age-31 season.

    Wow, the Religion Wars are raging, I choosed the right day for an holiday… 🙂

    @Raven:
    To answer your question, there’s a lot of parity going on in the league right now, in my opinion with 2021-22’s RJ and the other players doing what they’re doing, this team has an East 8th spot floor and a 4th spot ceiling.
    I think with 2021-22 RJ instead of this awful travesty we would have won 3 more games between the home losses with OKC, ATL, POR, MEM and DAL…

    Let’s table Randle and talk about something we can all be irrationally positive about- Grimes! Beautiful stroke, timely cuts, and that defense! Oh that defense! He just faced down a murderers row of Trae, Ja, SGA, Donovan Mitchell, and Luka and didn’t blink. Do we have our own Mikal Bridges?

    That’s my hope, that we have our own Mikal in Grimes. And that covers 3 positions on the team, PG (Brunson), SG or SF (Grimes) and C (Mitch). Quick has elevated all his skills except shooting, so i think he can be the next to make a leap. RJ is a mistery to me, i keep my faith in him, but he’s doing nothing to justify it. I like Obi, but as an energy guy from the bench, i agree with Z-Man that he lacks the skills to be a starter. And at his age, a big leap isn’t likely, i think. Deuce and Sims can be nice players off the bench, maybe. Cam isn’t worth the trouble, if they can swap him for another reclamation project, i’m in favor of that.

    RJ is really a problem that needs to be solved. The combination of 25.2 USG% and 89 TS+ is just downright toxic. Feels like that particular turd needs to be removed from the punchbowl before anything very exciting happens here.

    I get that he’s young and can improve, but sheesh.

    “ Some of us just like to have something you can dream on.”

    I assume we can all agree on this.

    But there’s really no use in comparing the Knicks to other organizations because the NYC/Dolan factors make them pretty unique.

    Obviously, this team will never fully tank on purpose, at least as long as Dolan owns it, so it’s probably better just to focus on what they CAN do within those parameters.

    Honestly, a #2 of Brunson and a #3 of good Randle (Dr. Jekyll Randle?) could be a competitive playoff team. Thibs still just needs a #1 option who fits his scheme, and we have a decent amount of assets to get that guy… it’s just a matter of who’s available.

    Right now, no one is available. Maybe DeRozan or LaVine will be available soon? But neither seems ideal. Shai seems happy. Zion seems happy. So idk who that guy will be.

    In the meantime, maybe they can trade for Turner because a stretch 5 would be really helpful, even though we all love Mitch.

    For this year OKC is not as good as us by SRS. For this year I’d take the Knicks.

    Them being 1 game behind is misleading.

    We made the playoffs 2yrs ago. We played .500 level ball last year. We’re better this year. Saying they’re currently 1 game back misleads, and that was the point.

    Everyone knows OKC has a billion picks and a bright future, but when we accumulate picks it counts for nothing.

    For this year OKC is not as good as us by SRS. For this year I’d take the Knicks.

    Them being 1 game behind is misleading.

    We made the playoffs 2yrs ago. We played .500 level ball last year. We’re better this year. Saying they’re currently 1 game back misleads, and that was the point.

    Everyone knows OKC has a billion picks and a bright future, but when we accumulate picks it counts for nothing.

    Okay, so whose situation would you rather be in, as a team? The Knicks or the Thunder?

    “OKC’s situation isn’t better than ours.”
    In the spirit of trying to model good behavior and not be a dick, I will simply say that my guess is 30 GMs and 100% of their staffs disagree.

    30 GMs and their staffs includes the Knicks, Noble. You think not even Leon believes in our situation? 😀

    If I’m being honest, I wouldn’t mind building with (not around lol)Randle- despite my “trade him while you can” stance. I intimated in a previous thread that one of RJ or Randle has to be moved. My preference is absolutely Randle being traded because it gives our 2 polarizing lottery picks in RJ & Obi more room to grow. Especially with Obi because I would like to see what we have in him before it’s too late- record be damned. But Randle is a VERY good supporting player. The problem is actually finding an available top tier player who can carry more of the load than Randle and Brunson can. Though- Brunson is doing a hell of a job as our defacto top option on offense. I just want it to be clear that my trade Randle stance is less about Randle than it is about the other pieces on the roster.

    Say we trade RJ. Who would take him? Could we..I dunno..convince Brooklyn to give us a fairly broken Simmons? Or Toronto to give us Anunoby or something? We might have no other choice but to move Randle and hope the extra space helps RJ realize his full potential- whatever that is.

    Who would we want filling the roster right now, Rokas or Arch?

    @Cyber
    For his own sake I’d rather have Rokas play 14 minutes in Euroleague instead of zero minutes in the NBA as Arcidiacono 🙂

    I think that among the so-called pessimists, JK’s feelings on the team are the ones I can relate to the most. for example, this take:

    Some of us just like to have something you can dream on. “Championship or bust” isn’t my mentality, but REAL contention, like 1990’s Knicks-style contention, is something I could get into. I don’t really see that kind of potential with this particular group of players nor with this front office. If this group tops out at “never won a playoff series” I’m going to consider that a pretty disappointing outcome even if there are a few low-40ish seasons mixed in there. Maybe they’ll pleasantly surprise me– I certainly hope they do.

    This is interesting because the entire ’90s stretch was build on having on HOFer we acquired during an accidentank season with flat lottery odds, whose high water marks for BPM were 5.5 and 5.2 with a single first team all-NBA appearance, and who never had a single multiple all-star for a teammate during his prime. Is there really no conceivable path to something like that level?

    I’m less enthusiastic about trading Randle.

    (1) He had several high-usage/high-efficiency seasons prior to joining the Knicks. We shouldn’t ignore those.

    (2) Breaking down PPS by role is supposed to give a more accurate evaluation of a player within a defined role. But Randle doesn’t play much like a big. Lots of bigs just dunk the ball, some will take open 3s, most have tiny usage rates. Few bigs play the same game Randle does unless they’re defining big in an odd way. He should be compared against other high-usage players, not bigs.

    thank you so much for sharing that…i don’t know JK, i have no doubt on your professional competency – hard though not to think as i read your posts – you should have gone in to the education field…

    there’s a few of you here that i feel like i could just sit and listen to your stories/experiences and such for a hours/days/weeks on end…

    if you don’t mind me asking – have you started your young one on a musical journey?

    i bought a bunch of different instruments over the years for the kids, but, because i myself don’t have a passion for making music, they haven’t either…

    OKC, but I’ll take the Knicks over many of the other teams going forward.

    Again, it’s not a 2 team universe.

    Holding out OKC as the standard is a condemnation of 29 teams, not just 1.

    Outside of Boston and Milwaukee the East is pretty open- Philly gets healthy and Miami probably turns it around. The Nets, who knows? I think the 5 or 6 seed is possible if unlikely. Play in and getting destroyed by the Celtics and picking 14th is not ideal.

    In the meantime, maybe they can trade for Turner because a stretch 5 would be really helpful, even though we all love Mitch.

    This idea is good basketball wise, but money wise he’s expiring and expecting a raise from the 18M AAV he currently makes. Don’t know if another 20M+ player on a multi-year contract to add to RJ, Randle and Brunson would be a good idea.

    “OKC, but I’ll take the Knicks over many of the other teams going forward.”

    *********************

    Like who? Be specific.

    I’m seeing maybe Charlotte, maybe Washington. Maybe Chicago, but I think Chicago’s big three has actual positive asset value and they were kneecapped by Lonzo’s bad knee. San Antonio? They have Vassell, who’s better than any of the young Knicks and they’re going to have a premium pick in this year’s premium draft.

    So what’s the number? Five? Seven? Ten? Let’s have a real list.

    I mean … Oklahoma City? It’s not even close. Immediate credibility squander. (Yes, I know you admitted OKC; I’m just commenting generally).

    @wojespn
    Knicks forward Obi Toppin is expected to be re-evaluated in two-to-three weeks after imaging today on his left knee, sources tell ESPN. Toppin has averaged 7.7 points in 17 minutes a game this season.

    Not the worst outcome, but this still sucks.

    And, obviously, I can’t imagine they will even consider trading Randle at the moment under these circumstances.

    Chicago should probably give up and start over, as more than one national analyst has noted, but the Knicks are in an even more pronounced “It’s time to start over” position, with fewer assets.

    For his own sake I’d rather have Rokas play 14 minutes in Euroleague instead of zero minutes in the NBA as Arcidiacono 🙂

    Deuce is making good of his zero minutes in the NBA, and lots of minutes in the GLeague, last season. 😉

    “be honest E, that little quip has been in your mind all day just waiting to be set free 🙂”

    *******************
    I thought it when Dejounte limped off — it was obvious — but I tried to have the good graces to not pollute the game thread lol.

    The Knicks have been unbelievably lucky in “opponent good players games missed” this year. It’s not quite to ISM levels, but it’s pretty close at this point.

    i was gonna write some stuff reference basketball IQ and our roster, but, this question of whose in worse shape than us from a ROSTER perspective is interesting…

    roster wise, i’d put these clubs below us:
    wolves
    thunder
    hornets
    wizards
    bulls
    jazz
    kings
    rockets
    spurs
    magic
    pistons

    i mean we all go on about just how mediocre our team is at the moment…mediocre is a little less than average…

    at the moment, we’re a little worse than average…sooooooo, that kind of means there are more than just one or two clubs out there with worse rosters than ours…

    logic, it’s what’s for lunch…

    Count me in for a situation like the 90s Knicks. Just don’t ask me how we’ll get there. 😛

    More specific. Blech.

    @FredKatz
    Obi Toppin has a non-displaced fracture in his right fibula, the Knicks announce. He will be reevaluated in 2-3 weeks. No further timetable given.

    Sometimes it is hard to overcome the pessimism of the board. I am aware that we award “bonus points” to whoever is right and “shame points” to whoever gets it wrong, and that being a pessimist is better strategy (after all, only 1 of 30 teams win the championship in a given year, and only 8 of 30 win a playoff series).

    But I don’t think it is warranted the full on “tear down the building” approach. Thibs is playing a 9 man rotation with a 28 year-old, a 26 year-old, and everyone else is 24 and under. And we are hovering around .500 with a dismal start of the season for RJ. Leon Rose’s strategy might be mediocre, our young talent is not as good as it could have been if we had made our draft picks, and had chosen more wisely. However, we are not in a dreadful situation. The team is young and bound to improve. We have assets for a trade. And maybe we are lucky and some team is interested in our players and we get assets back. But if we start shopping every player for the sake of giving them away, we will not improve our future situation, and we may miss out on a trade for a star or a trade that nets us assets.

    An outright tank might have been the right decision from the very beginning, but that does not mean that the current direction is without its merits.

    that’s a bummer for Obi but I don’t think that’s a season ending injury so (hopefully) it’s not a big deal. If he misses 6 weeks or something it just gives us a chance to try some new lineup combos

    The Knicks have been unbelievably lucky in “opponent good players games missed” this year. It’s not quite to ISM levels, but it’s pretty close at this point.

    to that i might counter – are you really looking that deep in to everyone else’s schedule situation…probably not…

    it’s hard to detangle future and current perspectives cause they’re so entwined; however – do not try to cheat me out of my:

    Thank God the New York Knickerbockers are finally average – moment…

    i’ve been wishing for mediocrity for so long…here it is…not as satisfying a thing as excellence, not as bad though as being an orlando magic or charlotte hornets fan…

    thing and stuff are two of my favorite words – so useful…recently learned that the word “thing” comes from concept of meeting together to make community decisions…

    And I concur with everyone saying that RJ is the real problem. I kind of hoped for a Donovan Mitchell trade because we would get rid of him. Sheeesh, we tank for once and we end up with a curse. Is there any way to get Tari Eason for RJ?

    That’s current roster-wise though, Geo. No real dispute about that one. The Knicks have a better current roster than the Magic, yes. Of course they do.

    But are the Knicks in a better position to become a real contender than the Magic, given the paths that have been proven to get a team to “real contention”? Not so much. Do the Knicks have a Paolo Banchero? No, they do not. Do the Knicks have a plan to get a Paolo Banchero? No, they really do not. They clearly don’t have any plan to get one through the draft — they’ve said so out loud, according to Katz — so at most they have some inchoate hope and prayer.

    What assets do you suppose the Knicks possess that they could offer Orlando for Paulo Banchero? That will kind of lay out the dilemma.

    Let’s start the parlor game. “We’ll give you all four of our ‘excess first rounders’ for Paulo Banchero.” Howls and peals of laughter on the other end. “We’ll give you those picks and Immanuel Quickley and Quentin Grimes for Paulo Banchero.” Ditto.

    More importantly, they will have a premium high lottery pick in a stacked draft this year.

    Team Optimism can take it from there.

    “Considering that this is the path we have chosen though, I’d rather see this team win some games and try to establish itself as a mid-tier seed than sink into 35-win mediocrity and pick 8th again. They’re never going to do it my way, so they might as well be successful at doing it their way.”

    Agreed, and only a couple of people here would have preferred this way to a more patient, down to the studs rebuild, and very few wanted Thibs to be hired, and we all wanted Hali over Obi, and we all wanted a pick to be made at #19, etc.

    It just seems kind of amusing when the same folks who predicted that Randle was and would almost certainly remain untradable garbage on the worst albatross contract in the league now seem weirded out that he’s playing really well because now we’re REALLY stuck with him, even though he playing like some of those same folks hoped he would when he signed an extension they thought was reasonable at the time.

    And since they missed the mark about both Randle’s ability to rebound from last year and his willingness to accept a diminished role, it rings a bit hollow when they assume that he’s not going to be part of a team at the level that JK described, perhaps in a tertiary role on a commensurate salary.

    I agree that we are not on a clear path to a title, or even a finals appearance. But to assume that the team is topped out as a first round exit (ps like OKC has been since 2016) when it has lots of picks and young players in the hopper seems a bit much.

    Here’s a trivia question you’ll never see on MSG:

    According to basketball reference’s similarity score, which former Knick is the #1 comp for RJ Barrett?

    zach collins only missed 10 games this year with a nondisplaced fibula fracture. when tyson did it he missed more like 6 weeks or so i think.

    I agree that we are not on a clear path to a title, or even a finals appearance. But to assume that the team is topped out as a first round exit (ps like OKC has been since 2016) when it has lots of picks and young players in the hopper seems a bit much.

    ******************

    It doesn’t have “lots of” picks and it doesn’t have “lots of” young players. It literally possesses some young players in the pedantic sense, but it doesn’t have a lot of young talent in any sense.

    But are the Knicks in a better position to become a real contender than the Magic, given the paths that have been proven to get a team to “real contention”?

    that’s the thing ( 🙂 ) though E, there are just soooooo many different variables and “paths” towards “contention”…

    to the point though – from where we started Dolan’s crawl toward organizational respectability, we’ve finally seem to have arrived at being a .500 club…

    that ain’t happened too oft in the last 20 years, even for a single season…i’d feel confident saying that with what we have now going on – we’re about a .500 club…

    Where’s Knick Fan in Celtic Land to give us the timetable for Obi’s injury?

    a bottle of some good porto sez Doc Bob is out running – somewhere at this very moment…

    at least i hope so 🙂

    There’s no path to contention that starts with Julius Randle and Jalen Brunson at the top of the pyramid in whatever order. You aren’t going to start with those two and “out depth” or “outwork” or “out elbow grease” or “out Thibs” your way above the other teams to the contender field.

    It’s really no more complicated than that. Tell me/us how they’re going to get someone to jump those two guys on the pyramid, beyond the same kind of hope and prayer any team can have, and serious conversation on the topic can commence.

    Otherwise, we’re not in the realm of basketball but in philosophy and the path to the good life, etc.

    that’s the thing ( 🙂 ) though E, there are just soooooo many different variables and “paths” towards “contention”…

    *****************

    I think you’ve hit on the KB divide, Geo.

    Team “Optimist”: There are multiple paths to contention.

    Team “Pessimist”: Hmm, we know from association history that there really aren’t.

    HEY! The Magic are contenders now because they have Paulo Banchero! He’s a rookie who’s played a good half season! He must be a future hall of famer in the making!

    we’re not in the realm of basketball but in philosophy and the path to the good life, etc.

    butttttttt, we are in the realm of philosophy (discussion, possibly some discovery) and our own paths to the good life…

    ha – i’m am fully prepared and ready for your words today good sir 😛

    in a stacked draft

    so says the pundits. And yet many draft classes have been touted as “STACKED” only to end up being not that impressive years later when you actually look back on the careers of the players.

    People were hyping the shit out of the KAT/KP draft and looking back at the lottery end of that draft it is extremely underwhelming.

    and, before i forget – darules – be yourself…

    there is a cost though – if you could/would try to share a little more of yourself…

    i know spilling out all the gory details of your life and psyche isn’t everyone’s cup of tea (thinking now of mom constantly reminding me growing up to not show your ass in public)…

    many of us here though have moved beyond a simple avatar or moniker…

    not easy, but, hopefully at some point you may feel the cost of such actions are worth the reward…

    Given that there is almost no universe in which we are trading Brunson after tampering to get him to New York (unless the wheels completely fall off, I guess), I’m happy that Randle is currently playing well despite our position on the dreaded win curve. No teardown is in our immediate future. And, in my view, Randle *can* be a component of the next good Knicks team. He’s performing to his AAV, if not exceeding it at the moment. If this is the Randle we get for the duration of the extension (variously occupying different portions of the interval from 1-4 BPM), then we’re fine if IQ or Grimes make some strides. Again, since we’re not tanking, a string of #5 or #6 seeds wouldn’t be the worst outcome in the world–certainly better than perpetually picking the Kevin Knox’s of the world at #9 and then lamenting the misses on the Halis and Mitchells. So, I genuinely think we’re in a position to win a playoff series soon, but not much else.

    I’m still wait and see on this iteration of the team (though I’m quite comfortable with the over bet I made at the beginning of the season), and I really don’t like Rose’s draft strategy or his trade strategy. But the core parts of the team–Brunson, Randle, IQ, Grimes–are looking decent. RJ is the anchor right now.

    Here’s my list of who I prefer the Knicks current situation to (on a medium-term time horizon–say, the next 3-5 years):
    Heat (locked into a rapidly aging core, and they have to pay Strus soon–Jimmy is the only guy keeping them afloat–but Riley always has a rabbit to pull out of his hat. I’m afraid his luck may run out soon, however.)
    Wizards (perpetual play-in team with not enough assets)
    Pistons (I’m not a Cade believer; they’ll be good eventually, but they still seem a few years away.)
    Orlando (see above)
    Hornets (LaMelo is legit, but that’s about it)
    Chicago (Locked into a play-in core, no assets)
    Brooklyn (they’re not sniffing the Finals imo, and their cupboard is totally bare)
    Minnesota (core isn’t going anywhere, no picks)
    Clippers (core isn’t going anywhere–I’m genuinely concerned about Kawhi–few picks)
    Lakers (lol)
    Spurs (no man’s land besides Vassell–who’s cooled off a bit–and Poeltl)

    Teams that I’m 50/50 on:
    Portland (Dame isn’t getting younger and they’re injury prone; I’m not sure what their future is going to look like after this season, though they’re definitely better than us at this very moment)
    Houston (Tari, Sengun, and KMart Jr. look good, but maybe not world-beating; I’m worried about Jabari and Green, and KPJ doesn’t look like a guy–lots of picks though and super young)
    Hawks (they don’t look nearly as good as they ought to post Dejounte, kind of smell like a perpetual first round exit; Hunter is RJ level bad; though Griffin and Johnson look like guys)
    Hot take alert: Golden State (they have Steph! and nothing else! Wiggins is their second best player, and that says a lot)

    That makes for 11 teams that we’re better off than, with 4 others who are maybes. So, we’re comfortably middle of the pack. That’s not the worst place to be. Like this FO, it’s neither inspiring nor dismal–just pure mediocrity.

    butttttttt, we are in the realm of philosophy (discussion, possibly some discovery) and our own paths to the good life…

    ************************

    We are indeed, and all to the good.

    I’ll throw this out for consideration: Pliny the Elder had some good things to say about hope and optimism, but I’d rather have Sam Presti or Pat Riley calling the shots for my basketball team than Pliny the Elder.

    Here’s a trivia question you’ll never see on MSG:
    According to basketball reference’s similarity score, which former Knick is the #1 comp for RJ Barrett?

    It has to be Starks, or else Hubert will be very disappointed.

    a bottle of some good porto sez Doc Bob is out running – somewhere at this very moment…

    He probably is. 😉 Maybe he’s running, and he has the audio version of Knickerblogger, so he’s listening to our comments right now. 😀

    Came on to piss into the wind a bit because I keep reading how Obi can’t carry MY jockstrap, then read about the injury, which just sucks.

    But I’ll say it anyway. Obi’s got issues (besides the injury of course), but we did get a taste of Opti-Obi end of last year, when he was freed from the leash and literally and figuratively ran wild. Small sample size, and yeah end of the year and nobody was scouting him, but I saw a real, capable NBA player there.

    I freely admit he’s sucked this year so far, but 17 minutes a game in little spurts and stand at the three point line is clearly not Opti-Obi.

    But I guess we table that discussion for a few weeks…

    I’ll throw this out for consideration: Pliny the Elder had some good things to say about hope and optimism, but I’d rather have Sam Presti or Pat Riley calling the shots for my basketball team than Pliny the Elder.

    oh shit, bless you E, i’m literally lightheaded from laughing…that was beautiful…

    ummmmmm, yeah but, pliny is dust dude…

    “(2) Breaking down PPS by role is supposed to give a more accurate evaluation of a player within a defined role. But Randle doesn’t play much like a big. Lots of bigs just dunk the ball, some will take open 3s, most have tiny usage rates. Few bigs play the same game Randle does unless they’re defining big in an odd way. He should be compared against other high-usage players, not bigs.”

    Exactly. Lumping Randle into a category as broad a “generic bigs” is silly. He is a higher usage scoring forward with secondary playmaking responsibility. He is 35th in the league in BPM right now at 2.3. The players in remotely similar roles (USG% 25%+, AST%15+, DREB% 15%+) ranked above him:
    KAT 2.8
    LBJ 4.6
    Tatum 6.0
    Zion 6.1
    Siakam 7.0
    Durant 7.0
    AD 8.5
    Giannis 9.7

    All of those guys are max players. You can add lower usage guys like Sabonis and Gordon, or lower passing guys like KP and Lauri, but that Randle is keeping company with those guys without doing anything particularly unsustainable at his salary level is pretty impressive.

    It literally possesses some young players in the pedantic sense, but it doesn’t have a lot of young talent in any sense.

    Jalen Brunson – 25
    Quentin Grimes – 22
    RJ Barrett – 22
    Randle – 28
    Mitchell Robinson – 24

    Miles McBride – 22
    IQ – 23
    Obi Toppin – 24
    Hart – 24
    SIMS – 24

    Their entire rotation is composed of players 25 or younger except for one player, who is at his prime age. Two of our starters are 22 years old.

    Literally our entire team is young players. WTF are you talking about?

    i predict that if Obi realizes the potential of his potential…it will not be in a knick uni…I think they way they have developed/misused him….will need to be undone elsewhere if randle stays aboard…I also think there is a good chance that he is not very good….contrast grimes’ aggression with obi’s relative passiveness…obi should be like a bat out of hell when he gets out there…but often he seems like a real pussy (no offense to any female KB’ers out there)..

    Worse going forward/once they age out:

    Atlanta
    Nets
    CHI
    Charlotte
    Lakers
    Clippers
    Milwaukee rotation will age out
    Spurs
    Clippers will age out/injuries
    GSW will age out
    Timberwolves
    Pacers
    Miami ages out
    Nuggets, locked into bad deals
    Portland
    Philly, has nothing once Harden retires
    Washington

    Good projects but some won’t pan out:
    HOU
    ORL
    DET

    About even
    TOR is better now & not 30s but less draft picks

    Dallas better b/c Doncic but rotation pieces will age out and fewer picks.

    These are better:

    BOS
    UT
    OKC
    NOP
    PHO
    MEM
    SAC(!?!)

    Knicks entire rotation will be playing/in their prime once all those teams age out.

    Also, the Grimes/Mitch defense is the 1A star.

    “Worse going forward/once they age out:”

    *********************

    Now try it without the “once they age out” projection/guess/whatever. Do it as of right now.

    If a team like Milwaukee — an actual real life current contender with the best player in the league in his prime and on their roster — is on the list of teams worse positioned to become contenders, then something critical has been lost in translation.

    Nobody wants to do this exercise straight up, because they know the list is real sparse.

    Knicks entire rotation will be playing/in their prime once all those teams age out.

    *******************

    So the Knicks will be contenders in 4-5 years with their current roster? Same guys?

    Like what, exactly, is the Team Op claim here? That this roster is just growth and the passing of like four more seasons from actual contention? Seriously? If that’s the claim, might as well just put it out there and at least then we have our marker.

    Nope Cyber, more recent

    I don’t know the answer, and i don’t think i want to take a guess… because i know it’ll make RJ look bad. 😛

    I can’t get on board with choosing our situation above:

    1) any team with a non-zero chance to win a championship in 2023, because, I mean, come on (keep in mind a lot of these teams can kickstart a rebuild by trading their stars whenever they want)

    2) any team that employs Luka Doncic, because, I mean, come on

    3) the Pacers, because they have a young player that would definitely be picked in a league wide draft before anyone on our roster, another in Mathurin that probably would too, and can get a bunch of stuff for Turner and/or Hield

    I have some quibbles with other teams on EB’s list too, but those really stuck out.

    Obi being out probably means 38-40 minutes a night for Randle- he’s going to pile up some nice counting stats that should make him more attractive to other teams. I will say that if at the trade deadline Randle is still plus TS%, rebounding closer to his career average and competing on defense I’ll almost certainly flip flop back to wanting to keep him unless the deal is for some nice tangible assets. But that’s probably evidence of a character flaw rather than a rational decision- good Randle is a marshmallow and if you put a marshmallow in front of me I’m eating it.

    Also, RJ’s comp is depressing enough so I’m going to suggest you don’t actually compare their stats. That way you can avoid the realization that the other guy was better.

    Like what, exactly, is the Team Op claim here? That this roster is just growth and the passing of like four more seasons from actual contention? Seriously? If that’s the claim, might as well just put it out there and at least then we have our marker.

    Our claim is that our team is full of young players and playing 500 ball. Young players get better usually. No one knows the future. Team Optimist knows this. Team Pessimist thinks they know the future and that the future is written in undrafted lottery players yet to be named.

    I don’t know if our young players can grow and improve enough to get us to contention level. But I’m willing to be patient for another season or so while we play competitive ball right now and find out. And I’m also more than willing to acknowledge that we’re positioned well. With a roster full of young players, a good amount of first round picks and (once Fournier is gone) no real bad contracts (if RJ can get his shit together).

    Who knows what will happen. I’m willing to believe in our young players and our coaches and think they can get better. How much better? I don’t know. But I think we can and I think we can make a move that will catapult is to the contender level.

    (1) Championship timeline. We talk about it, but let’s actually think about it. I’m not comparing ourselves to teams today, I’m comparing us to teams based on our timeline, as I indicated. Our entire rotation will be in their prime in 5 yrs, almost no team that’s currently competitive can say the same.

    Time exists. We compete at specific times, not an amorphous blob of “situation”.

    (2) & (3) Sure. Put those 2 ahead of us.

    Also, the Grimes/Mitch defense is the 1A star.

    I’m with you on this, Bird. And if the team at least plays great defense i usually enjoy the game.

    “I don’t know if our young players can grow and improve enough to get us to contention level. But I’m willing to be patient for another season or so while we play competitive ball right now and find out. ”

    *************************

    So the only difference between you and “Team Pessimist” is that you need another year?

    Really shitty news about Obi. Reddish has got to get back into the rotation now, right? It seems like he won’t, but wouldn’t that make the most sense?

    We’ll have the same guys, barring trade, plus at least 3 more 1st rd picks than most teams.

    And this team is probably 1 player away from contention right now (RJ).

    You should have heard the shit I got from local Seahawks fans when I said that trading Russell Wilson for a huge draft haul was probably the best possible outcome for his Seattle tenure short of building a time machine to let Marshawn Lynch have three chances to blast the goal line. Can’t say I saw him ranking [checks Pro Football Reference] 30th of 33 qualified in QBR, but yeah, selling high on questionable assets is generally pretty smart.

    I love Aaron Judge, but I thought the Yankees should have done this last winter after he turned the extension down.

    I’m glad he’s on the team but I hope they’re prepared to eat some bad years on the back end.

    Selling high usually works out much better for the seller.

    OKC, but I’ll take the Knicks over many of the other teams going forward.

    Again, it’s not a 2 team universe.

    Holding out OKC as the standard is a condemnation of 29 teams, not just 1.

    Oh sure, that’s totally fair.

    Giannis will still be around, but Middleton/Jrue/Lopez should be slowing down a lot if they haven’t retired.

    Really shitty news about Obi. Reddish has got to get back into the rotation now, right? It seems like he won’t, but wouldn’t that make the most sense?

    RJ at the 4 has always been intriguing to me and I’d like to see as much of Quick, Deuce and Grimes playing together as I can so RJ/Hart plus those three is worth a look. Also Simms, Hart, and those three three picking everybody up full court would be fun on the defensive end at least. Randle isn’t going to play the five without Obi so if his minutes increase to around 38 which seems almost certain then there’s really only 10 minutes you need to account for in which case going small with RJ and seeing if extra spacing gets him out of his funk is probably the best bet.

    The Bucks are supposedly interested in Cam, and Thibs really liked Beauchamp during the draft… maybe that could be a fit?

    Otherwise, I don’t see a lot out there. Maybe Miami would give up Jovic for him? The Lakers don’t have much except maybe Reeves. But I don’t really see any of those teams also taking on Fournier unless we take back a longer contract than his (which we should not do).

    RJ at PF now?

    Well, here’s our big chance to see RJ play even more undeserving minutes and be a negative on both sides of the ball at a brand new position.

    I know it would be embarrassing for the Knicks to reduce RJ’s minutes given he was selected #3, hyped to death, & just given a 100m extension, but he’s closer to a bust than an all-star so far.

    Do we really have to see even more minutes?

    Maybe Thibs is playing 4D chess and we really are tanking.

    I would expect that we won’t see Cam until after December 15 (a weel from today). That way there’s no injury risk. If a trade doesn’t happen by then, maybe they’ll play him until Obi gets back.

    i don’t know how you do what you do cyber – but, thanks for doing it 🙂

    okay then, hopefully knick fan in celtic land doesn’t mind us outing him a bit, but – robert chasen…

    i remember when i was really trying hard to figure out the breathing and meditation stuff – i thought about doc bob out on the road a lot…

    it helped me understand both breathing and meditation. two key pieces of endurance athletes…

    just saw doc bob recently finished another road race…wow…

    dang…turns out doc bob wrote an article on this thing bugging me right now (it started a long time ago, yanking on a bag of tire chains in the back of a deuce and a half)…

    of course his focus is on distance running – of which i do none of 🙂
    http://takingthingsinstride.blogspot.com/

    small world though…thanks doc bob – i’ll try the crunches and lunges once this thing settles down a bit:

    Treatment starts with the basics: Rehab the deficient muscle functions. If the muscle is weak, strengthen it. A type of crunch is a good tool. A common mistake is to do a traditional crunch which emphasizes concentric strengthening at the expense of eccentric strengthening. There are variations that can customize these exercises for distance runners and individual needs. If the muscle is tight, stretching is paramount. The lunge is an effect maneuver, so long as it done properly (many people stretch the psoas fibers at the expense of the iliacus fibers). Also, long standing cases need to have stretching and the scar tissue freed up before strengthening become effective.

    “Cam is such a bad rebounder that I’m not sure he’d be a good fit for PF”

    No, but RJ and Randle can’t play 48 minutes…so if RJ plays the 4 with the second unit, someone has to play the 3.

    I wouldn’t mind seeing Svi in there playing some 2, he can really shoot. Thibs said some nice things about him recently, or so Breen says…

    “To me, using that CHA protected pick on Cam was a bigger error than the original pick swap. I would much rather have used the pick on a similar high upside 19-20yo than on a guy like Cam, and said so at the time. It wasn’t the worst flier in the world, but definitely a low percentage move, similar to Mudiay, Hezonja, Frank, Knox, DSJ, etc. The occasional flashes are tantalizing, but ultimately, it’s just not there and it’s a waste of time to wait around for it.”

    We are usually in the same ballpark, but I can’t agree with much of that.

    Some of those players were proven NBA failures with hard to find upside and Knox was a reach that everyone here didn’t like.

    I’d say the closest comp for Cam is DSJr. He had great athletic talent but a suspect basketball IQ. The one difference is Cam’s development was hindered by injuries that would have no long term impact on his career and DSJr’s back and other injuries were at least certain to reduce his athleticism and possibly shorten his career.

    Personally, I don’t think Cam played poorly this year. He was playing fine when he was starting. Even Thibs was finishing with him. He got hurt, came back a bit rusty (typical) and then had one game where he played a handful of minutes on a Sunday like he was in a coma or flatlining. For all we know he was hungover from a Saturday night threesome with some blonds and champagne. He doesn’t suddenly suck again even though I know the norm here is to wildly overreact to every game.

    We;ve watched OBI put 3s into orbit and not defend, RJ suck ass on both sides of the ball, Quick not make a 3 for 2 weeks, Deuce brick 3s from everywhere, Mitch foul out and throw line drives at the FT line etc.. for weeks, months, and even years. But we hang in there, hope for slow steady improvement, and it slowly comes.

    strat, I wish I was with you on Cam but don’t see much to be optimisitic about. I’ve already seen RJ play consistently well for reasonably long stretches. Cam puts up those binary code box score lines way too often for me.

    Cam was always a weak rebounder for a SF, but not horrendous. When he was playing a lot of minutes for NY recently he was playing SG (not SF). He was spending a lot of time on the perimeter and not asked to go inside. If he was asked to rebound, he’d get more. But he clearly doesn’t have the upper body strength to bang with legit PFs. We’d have problem on the boards. He’d just get more if his job was to be inside and get more defensive boards.

    Cam is a 4th year player and 23 years old. If he’s not figured out how to get stronger by now, he never will while he here.

    Speaking of marginal wins, wtf is Danny Ainge doing? You would think that in the year that the most generational player since LeBron is coming out, he’d have jettisoned the vets by now.

    >>strat, I wish I was with you on Cam but don’t see much to be optimisitic about. I’ve already seen RJ play consistently well for reasonably long stretches. Cam puts up those binary code box score lines way too often for me.<<

    It's not like I am "high" on him. I think he can be a contributor to a good team. I was OK with trading for him because I didn't think the pick we gave up had that much value, but I'm not OK with trashing that value altogether by attaching him to Fournier just to get Evan off the end of the bench. The rest of my frustration has to do with RJ disappointing me badly so far this year despite the addition of Brunson but not being held accountable at all while everyone else gets such a short leash.

    >Speaking of marginal wins, wtf is Danny Ainge doing? You would think that in the year that the most generational player since LeBron is coming out, he’d have jettisoned the vets by now.<

    IMO Ainge is not tanking, at least not in the way we think about it here.

    If he was tanking for the best possible pick why would he go out of his way to sign Kelly Olynyk?

    He's accumulating "assets". But picks, young players, and veterans are all assets at the right price.

    Right now he's evaluating the young players he picked up so far trying to decide who he'll keep long term and who he'll trade, waiting for the right price on the older vets, and will have a jump started rebuild with the young players he keeps and all the draft picks he accumulates.

    He's doing what I would recommend, but competently. lol

    Yeah, if only the 2x Defensive Coach of the Year had thought to ask their 6’8″ player to help rebound for the 25th ranked DRebing team. He’s being outrebounded by everyone except Deuce, so I don’t think it’s a positional thing.

    No, but RJ and Randle can’t play 48 minutes

    Don’t threaten Thibs with a good time!

    With the Jazz, Ainge traded for a young guy who’s heads-and-shoulders better than any of the Knick young guys he was offered, and the young guy is blossoming even beyond projection with more responsibility. Markatin is a terrific player. I’d trade any Knick straight up for him, though Brunson would at least make me hesitate.

    Net-net the dropoff from Spida/Gobert to Markatin/Olynuk/Kessler turns out to be not really all *that* high, though it’s obviously not zero and so there’d be no reason to expect them to fall off a cliff since they won 49 games last year. They still have Clarkson, Beasley’s probably better than O’Neale, etc. The 23.5 win Vegas projection was dogshit.

    And they aren’t “marginal wins” when you’re 9th in the association in net rating, third in O rating, and you have a 25 year old franchise-caliber player like Markatin. With a big stash of extra unprotected picks through the end of the decade.

    This isn’t Alec Burks making a clutch steal to save the win at Sacto in March 2022 as the Knicks wheezed toward missing the play-in, or anything close.

    Know the terminology.

    Why is everyone butchering Markkanen’s last name so badly, especially now that he’s “upper tier”? I mean, “Olynuk” is one thing, but I don’t think that Markkanen is into marketing enough to get it *that* wrong quite so consistently. 🙂

    — Your Friendly NBA Last Name Police

    D-mar, man, I am still REALLY struggling with this question, even after that cryptic hint. So tough!!!

    It’s odd that D-Mar happened to look up that similarity score for RJ today, as I happened to have done the exact same thing earlier this week, and also thought about posting the result here for its entertainment value alone.

    Hey NBA Last Name Police, i think the best Knicks are Jalen Branson and RJ Barnett. 😀

    “If he was tanking for the best possible pick why would he go out of his way to sign Kelly Olynyk?”

    He probably wouldn’t, but also, he didn’t. He received Olynyk back as salary filler when he traded one of the best players remaining on the Jazz’ roster in Bogdanovic.

    I actually thought he sold quite low on Bogdanovic and said so at the time, in other words I thought he was *too urgently* trying to get good players off his roster.

    Yes, ‘soze, and one of my favorite all-time Knicks is George Barnard King, who accidentally stepped on my foot at the Garden on Christmas Night 1984 just before going out and scoring a career-high 60 points (against the Nets, who I believe won by a score of 120-114). I was 20 years old and on Christmas Break from college attending the game with my Dad (a Bronx boy who will be turning 90 this coming February).

    Honestly, playing at the 4 might be the best chance to salvage RJ Barrett’s career.

    We might be reaching the point where we just have to concede that this is a guy who simply isn’t fast, athletic, and/or skilled enough to be a good, or even “not bad,” guard/wing in the NBA. He might actually be able to take some 4s off the dribble, something he basically can never do at the 2/3. His defensive matchups would mostly be closer to his speed and he’s strong enough to guard most 4s, I think.

    Rebounding is literally the one thing RJ Barrett has proven to be a strength relative to other guards/wings. Obviously the standards are higher at the 4, but I doubt playing him there would actively hurt us on the glass.

    Assuming (perhaps naively, given that much of this sample comes from the empty gyms year) he can bounce back to his career 3PT% of 35%, that plays much better at the 4.

    Of course, the elephant in the room is that power forwards are expected to be able to finish at the basket pretty well and Barrett’s a bad finisher even by guard standards. I have no good retort to this besides stating the obvious–RJ has to get better. Realistically no positional switch will be a panacea for a player with as many flaws as RJ.

    It’s absolutely something we should try, if for no other reason because it’s very unlikely to make RJ worse.

    Danny Ainge never actually said, “Imma tank.” Honestly, if we think it through, if he really wanted to tank, he would have taken the Knicks package and not the Cavs.

    The Jazz had a 56-win Pythag team last year. Third in the association. Third best SRS. That’s a very high baseline for an all-out tank job and if you really want to tank from that high a baseline, you don’t take back obviously talented players like they did.(*) You basically take back nothing. They didn’t do anything close to taking back nothing.

    So, sure, *if* Ainge subjectively wanted to tank, he objectively went about it very strangely. When there’s a mismatch like this, it’s typically best to question the premise itself.

    (*) Collin Sexton gets a few LOLs here and there from close association watchers, but he’s 23 and is TSing .605 and WS/48ing .113. If he was on the Knicks, Team Optimism would be positively drooling over him.

    “Hey NBA Last Name Police, i think the best Knicks are Jalen Branson and RJ Barnett.”

    I think the best Knick is Bake McBride.

    Glad that Mercury Morris guy doesn’t play for us anymore, though.

    I’ve checked airlines and priced flights and even tentatively typed in dates, but I’m not giving my credit card number for the trip off RJ Island until I see him with a modern, open lane.

    RJ stepped out after the W😭😭😭😭 pic.twitter.com/ODVegvU3L6— zach (@_917zach) December 8, 2022

    I don’t think any less of RJ Barrett because he takes in NYC nightlife–he’s a 23 year-old multimillionaire and has every damn right to act like one.

    However, between this and some other data points, the idea that he has some psychotic Butler-esque work ethic might need some revision.

    I was 20 years old and on Christmas Break from college attending the game with my Dad (a Bronx boy who will be turning 90 this coming February).

    That’s a great memory to have. Thanks Barnard! 😉 And what a life your dad must have had, maybe he still remembers stuff since WWII until now. That’s a lot of years, congrats to him! 🙂

    What’s Tacko Bell doing? We should sign him.

    Hahaha. Yeah, we should sign him, just imagine tuesdays at MSG. 😀

    Do the Knicks have a Paolo Banchero? No, they do not. Do the Knicks have a plan to get a Paolo Banchero? No, they really do not.

    The Knicks do not, indeed. But with Orlando’s front office, I’d be happy to practically dare them to build a consistent 50+ win contender with him. Which leads me to my point: sure OKC and Orlando have a better trove of young talent, but it’s not the end all to be all. Their front offices still have to do their part to build up those teams to contention. Presti has shown to be able to do it. The Magic? Wake me when they finally get things together.

    The Trade Randle plan, a plan I’m in favor of, has hit a snag.

    1. At this point, trading Randle this season = tanking. Period. And as much as some of us would love to see that, here’s the problem for this season: there are 5 teams with single-digit victories who are projected to be frontrunners for the Wemby/Scoot sweepstakes. Couple that with all the parity in the league right now, I think it will be awfully hard for the Knicks to swan-dive deep enough in the standings to entertain drafting Wemby/Scoot. They’re 6.5 games up on the league-worst Magic, but 1.5 games out of the 4-seed. Is there another player (or handful of players) projected other than Wemby/Scoot in this draft that’s worth gambling such a tank dive on? Doesn’t look like it as of now.
    2. RJ’s regression. At this point, his play has been much more of an anchor and something where there aren’t any easy solutions to. We can discuss the clunky-ness of the offensive spacing and such, but things need to be done to try to get him consistently going.

    it wasn’t until the beginning of this season that I started focusing on RJ’s defense…

    there’s no excuse for ever being below 30% on 3 point shots 25 games in…

    it’s not his offense that’s the problem though – it’s his defense…

    I’m kicking myself for listening to all that I wanna guard the toughest cover one thru three last year and not noticing just how slow and plodding he moves around the court…

    for some reason I also failed to notice how poor his basketball IQ is…

    he might just have the lowest basketball IQ of any player in the rotation at the moment…

    I don’t know – his strength helps get him to the free throw line, but, he needs to drop some weight, do more agility drills and just once make it over a screen…

    his body language is taking a real hit lately…I know the crowd and media afterwards has to be letting him know about all the sloppy turnovers he’s been committing…

    the game isn’t all about statistics – however, numbers certainly help tell a clearer story…

    I give thibs and the front office credit – we got a rotation of younger players mostly below 25, three signed as free agents and the rest we drafted…

    and we’re around a .500 club with that…

    as much as I think thibs is stuck in the past, I give him credit for this move to shorten the rotation…

    took some resolve (concern for his job) to reach that point, but oh well…

    I’m kind of curious to see how he handles RJ…can’t imagine no one on the bench looks at player statistics…

    can’t imagine the RJ situation isn’t being discussed internally…

    man, I have wasted way too much time thinking about this…

    Last I saw Tacko highlights he was hooping all over people in the chinese league. He looked like Wilt Chamberlain

    Do we think RJ was chanting out his advanced statistics into his finger phone?

    And I presume those gals with the swaying candle things were involved in some sort of prayer for his dead three point shot…

    And I presume those gals with the swaying candle things were involved in some sort of prayer for his dead three point shot…

    If RJ came out as Wiccan he’d immediately become my favorite player.

    The Blazers are a lot better than I thought they would be this year. Some really fun young players on that team and Dame looks somewhat rejuvenated

    Ok before we retire for the evening, the answer to the best RJ similarity score comp is…..

    TDWTDD!

    and yet, for some reason – i remember being happy to see tony douglas do what dony douglas do when he was out on the court…

    so, what is it – better interviews?

    those numbers look nothing alike…

    i’ll be honest, i’m still a little heartbroken by the fact RJ looks so lost and slow out on the court…

    the second to last turnover where he just stumbled through the paint and then fell to his knees without the ball…that was neither a very athletic nor heady basketball play…

    Where did this RJ Barrett/Jimmy Butler thing come from? Did Thibs state it, or did we make it up here? (I’m just wondering because those two guys have next to nothing in common, either from a narrative or from a production standpoint, as evidenced by Butler’s 26 points on 12 shots tonight— a feat Barrett will most likely not match anytime soon)

    so to combat the devastating lack of joy and thoughtfulness you’ve decided to conduct 100pct of your posting here as a mewling complaintbot

    First highlight the problem, then see how things turn around (an optimistic take, for sure). Immediately after my post people started talking about how well Grimes is playing. And he is!

    Also see this from my original post in this thread: “A young team learning how to play and hopefully win together. Two previously rotation vets now sit and watch from the sideline […]”

    So, far from being a complaintbot. In fact I’m as joyful as a sunny day in the middle of the NY winter.

    Well, if you only post what you now brought to your last comment, and remove bits like this “But why stop with Randle? Let’s trade all of them and make sure it’s for nothing!” that was the ending of that comment, i think everything will be fine. Just state more what you think, what you’re seeing that is positive, and so on. That’s what can bring hope back to the debate.
    In my case, i’m very disappointed with how the season is going because i thought RJ could make a leap to at least borderline all-star, and he has been a disaster, so bad that now we can’t even pivot from him by trading him for another player with high potential that is also not fulfilling expectations. So we have to watch RJ struggle and keep believing he’ll get out of this. It’s really hard to keep the optimism by watching him play. But our other pieces can give us some hope that we have 3 starters on a good team, and some good reserves. Now it’s Leon’s job to go get those other 2 starters, or at least 1, maybe RJ or Randle can be the other. As i said before, i think having both is a mistake, they overlap a lot. We need to choose one and trade the other.

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