[news.google.com] — Tuesday, November 1, 2022 2:23:19 AM
New York plays Atlanta, aims for 4th straight home win Wichita Eagle
[news.google.com] — Monday, October 31, 2022 10:17:44 PM
Obi Shoppin’? Knicks Could Seek Obi Toppin Trade, Exec Says Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Monday, October 31, 2022 9:52:26 PM
Arch-enemy Trae Young returns to MSG this week to torment Knick fans Yahoo News
[news.google.com] — Monday, October 31, 2022 8:51:00 PM
Mitchell Robinson doing ‘terrific job’ for Knicks outside foul woes New York Post
[news.google.com] — Monday, October 31, 2022 7:05:05 PM
Sunday wasn’t ‘revenge’ game for Donovan Mitchell vs. Knicks WFAN
[news.google.com] — Monday, October 31, 2022 5:00:00 PM
Quentin Grimes’ foot injury feels eerily similar to Rasheed Wallace-Knicks situation Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Monday, October 31, 2022 4:42:17 PM
Knicks Rumors: Jalen Brunson Tampering Investigation Ongoing After 76ers Probe Wraps Bleacher Report
[news.google.com] — Monday, October 31, 2022 1:25:15 PM
NBA Power Rankings: Knicks’ Dynamic Duo Helping New York Rise? Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Monday, October 31, 2022 12:30:00 PM
Mitchell Robinson’s major flaw is reason for Isaiah Hartenstein’s increased Knicks role Daily Knicks
[news.google.com] — Monday, October 31, 2022 12:12:06 PM
Knicks’ Spooky Weekend: 3 Rational, Reasonable Reactions Sports Illustrated
[news.google.com] — Monday, October 31, 2022 10:20:15 AM
Tom Thibodeau reveals criminally overlooked Derrick Rose weapon ClutchPoints
[news.google.com] — Monday, October 31, 2022 8:19:01 AM
NBA Scores: Russell Westbrook, Los Angeles Lakers get first win of the season SB Nation
139 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2022.11.01)”
Macri’s newsletter today ran through lots of different lineup combos Thibs could try to make our offense work better with all these mismatched pieces, and with our lack of a clear star. (The main one was to play iHart as much as possible with Brunson and some of the other starters.) And all I thought was, “Have you met our coach?”
If you are trying to win basketball games(*), there are ways in which Thibs is the ideal guy to coach a talent-light team. He gets everybody prepared, he gets everybody to play hard, and he schemes up enough on the defensive end to go toe-to-toe with much better rosters. And there are ways in which he is the last guy you want, because his rigidity prevents him from looking for more creative ways to fix things that aren’t working. (Case in point: going with Point Burks over trying Point Quickley.)
(*) We can of course debate — and we have — the wisdom of going all-out to win rather than attempting to get high-end talent in the lottery. But this is the course this FO has taken, so all that’s left to discuss is whether they are taking it correctly or not.
Hey Alan, about the list of players we once talked way too much about relative to their contribution to the team, here’s some news from our ex-future point center KOQ. 😉
This year I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the variety in Thibs’s lineups. He’s mixed and matched the first and second units a bit, tried to stay with the guys playing well down the stretch. The only thing missing (I think) is Obi and Randle playing together. But, yeah, Thibs may revert at any time as you say.
I’m more worried about the D at the moment. In the last couple of games, the other team’s ability to score at will has had a demoralizing effect on the Knicks (and us ;-)).
Specifically, I wish Mitch could hold his own against the bigger guys. He seems to have the physical size for it, but maybe he’s watching his fouls. Maybe that’s only anecdotal, but I’d love to see Sims bang for a few minutes in those situations, against Adams, for example, if only for some variety, and to use up Jericho’s six fouls. Adams at the line would be a good thing (again, as just one example).
As for “To win, or not to win, that is the question.” I forget who posted the “We must be above 44 wins or below 35 wins” analysis (was it you, Alan?). Regardless, I was persuaded. I still have hope for more, but if things go poorly, we should tank hard.
About changing the lineup, we were winning and playing kind of good, so i think it’s a little early after 2 games to change it. And i don’t think other coaches would do it this soon. Thibs is making some experiences during games, RJ has been playing a lot with the 2nd unit, and Hart with the 1st unit. I still think Fournier is the key, he tries hard but he’s not a good defender, and the only way to hide Brunson’s defensive shortcomings is to put a great defender by his side. I’d try Quick in the starting lineup, although he’s not great, he’s a better defender than Fournier. And it also can help when Brunson is having trouble organizing the offense, Quick could do it, and that’s also better than having Randle back to the point-forward role.
Kyle O’Quinn! Loved him. Like a less talented but much friendlier Anthony Mason. I would definitely put him several notches higher than the likes of Toure Murray or Noah Vonleh, in that he was an actual NBA rotation player. The problem is that he was on a series of terrible Knicks rosters that needed him to be more than an eighth or ninth man.
For Xmas all I want is Thibs fired, Johnnie Bryant hired, and Randle traded, thanks, Santa…
Fair point, KBA. We’ve definitely seen less of the line change approach to the rotations this year. I don’t recall, for instance, seeing the starters plus Obi last year when Randle was playing, and it’s happened once or twice already this year.
But he can still shake things up a lot more than he has.
Yeah, i agree. But we had plans much higher than what KOQ could give us. 😉
You’re trying to call Z-Man to the discussion, i see. 😀
If anyone wants majr changes in the rotation, they better hope for a long losing streak or losing stretch. We have 5 very losable games coming up. You would have to hope for no better than 1-4, plus a loss or two vs. DET, OKC and UTA, plus going 0-3 in the next stretch vs. DEN, GSW and PHX. That would bring us to something like 6-11 and falling out of the playoff hunt. Red lights would start flashing, especially if the Nets went on a tear.
But if we finish that stretch at around .500, which I think is more likely than 6-11, I don’t expect much change, other than Grimes taking virtually all of Cam’s minutes if his “sore foot” ever heals.
I put KOQ on one of my all-Knickerblogger-300-comment-thread teams. Glad he’s thriving.
“I forget who posted the ‘We must be above 44 wins or below 35 wins'”
I said some iteration of this with the caveat that it could be wrong in the relatively unlikely event we get hugely positive developments even inside the win range I wanted to avoid. So if, for example, RJ made a huge leap and we won 42 games because other players underperformed, that still wouldn’t be a bad outcome.
It’s early, but it’s looking like nothing of that nature is going to happen. Guys are playing to the back of their basketball cards. So yeah, finishing in that win range would still present an uninspiring outcome to this season.
It’s becoming widely commented on that the Knicks are stuck, or more accurately have put themselves, in this rather unproductive middle ground. It makes you wonder if the front office will eventually feel the impetus to just make *something* happen, whether it’s making it a clear organizational priority to play the kids 28+ minutes every night (my preferred solution) or making a clear-cut win now trade (terrifying, but would at least clarify what exactly it is we’re trying to do here).
“You’re trying to call Z-Man to the discussion, i see. 😀”
I would be happy with all of those developments.
-Thibs is an excellent coach, just not right for our situation, never was.
-Not sure how good of a head coach Bryant would make, but I’d like to find out
-My thing with Randle is that I think he’s better as a starter (and overall player) than Obi, who I believe is waaaaaay overrated by some here. But I’d rather watch Obi play regardless of Ws and Ls.
I have compared Thibs and D’Antoni many times as similarly rigid kinds of coaches that are not ideal for rebuilding situations. Of the two, I prefer Thibs, but would greatly prefer a young Pop protege, e.g. a Becky Hammon type, or a brilliant young college coach.
Totally agree that RJ making a leap would make a middling win total “good” 😉
In fact, rather than wins, the bigger “Watch-o-meter” for me this season is Which Knick Will Make a Leap? RJ, Mitch, IQ, Obi, Grimes (if he plays), Cam (?!), all these guys are getting playing time just as we/I wish.
Which guy will be the one to radically improve his “basketball card” as mentioned? Maybe that’s a fool’s bet (bc, you know, *stats*), but, emotionally, I keep waiting for Mitch to become a clear advantage for us, even against top tier talent.
I’d love to have Becky coaching the Knicks.
“Obi, who I believe is waaaaaay overrated by some here.”
Have you seen his ts% after six games? I’d say he’s the only young player over-PERFORMING thus far.
https://jetswire.usatoday.com/2022/10/31/dan-orlovsky-zach-wilson-new-york-jets/
1. Hart has never shown he can be as effective per minute with his high energy style going a lot more minutes.
2. He’s already playing more minutes per game than he ever has by a significant amount.
3. He’s already playing more minutes than Mitch (albeit in part because Mitch has been in foul trouble)
“Have you seen his ts% after six games? I’d say he’s the only young player over-PERFORMING thus far.”
imho TS% is not a proxy for overall performance. Obi is limited on offense and bad on defense. At this time, he is suited to being an energy player off the bench, and nothing more. Thibs knows this. Danny Ainge probably knew it as well.
That’d have required Leon to have some (word to describe someone who makes bold decisions), which is something he’s decidedly lacking in.
I personally don’t have a super strong take on Obi’s ceiling, because I’m not sure how anyone could. He has never played so much as 18 minutes per game in his career.
Here are some things we know for sure:
-His per minute stats are great: 22/8/3.5 this year per-36 with a .681 TS%.
-The Knicks do well when he plays: I am well aware of the potential for noise here, but last year we were 9.9 points per 100 possessions better when he played and this year we’re 15.2 points per 100 possessions better when he plays.
Here are some more subjective things I personally believe:
-Owing to his lottery pedigree, performance in the rare games in which he’s allowed to play more, and level of fitness, I don’t think there’d be as much of a drop off in his numbers as there would be for some other per-minute superstars.
-I think concerns about his defense are a tad overstated, because there are only so many opposing 4s who can really exploit him and he at least tries.
-Julius Randle has some skills Obi Toppin does not have–if the shot clock is winding down and the ball can only be in one of their hands, I would choose Randle.
-However, Obi also has skills Randle does not have–if there are 6 or more seconds left on the shot clock, I would prefer the ball be in Obi’s hands. I think Obi’s shot creation abilities are *a little* underrated because he creates shots in ways other than dribbling into a midrange jump shot. Still a very long way to go on this front, to be clear.
-Julius Randle is a better shot creator than Obi Toppin right now, but still isn’t a good shot creator in general. We’ve rightfully been complimenting his play this year specifically because he has taken *fewer* unassisted shots. The results have still been pretty bad though, and eventually you have to ask what the value of existent-but-bad shot creation is compared to other skills. Especially with a player in Brunson in tow who you pretty much always want to create shots in desperate situations over any of these guys.
All in all, I think it’s inexcusable to play Obi as little as we do. Julius Randle is not good enough to be guaranteed 30 minutes, much less 33, every single night. Obi has made a clear case that he would be the better option on many nights, and a prima facie case that he could be the better option overall.
Where this would lead, I do not know. Maybe Obi completely fizzles with extra minutes, or maybe he mostly maintains his production and becomes a borderline all-star. I truly think the range of outcomes is that wide because of how little data we’ve collected on the matter. What I do know is “we might win 37 games instead of 39 if we tried it” doesn’t resonate with me as an excuse.
Obi may have improved his 3 point shot, but it’s pretty hard to tell right now because teams are leaving him open. He never has to take a dribble, a side step, or make any movement at all. He catches the ball while wide open and has to get it off before some defender that was sagging off tries to close out and at least get a hand up. If he keeps making those wide open ones at a decent clip, they will start defending him better and we’ll see more UFOs and UAPs. Where it all settles is anyone’s guess. But even if they defend him better and his 3p% goes down, he’ll be creating space better.
Part of the reason RJ was so good from 3 that one year is that they used to leave him open in the corner at times because he hadn’t proven he has to be defended. Now he gets defended better.
I think Hart has the look of a guy who can add more minutes and not lose production. He’s no Cole Aldrich (another Team 300 member).
Mitch needs to stay on his feet more and hunt blocks less. They can’t be coaching him to do this on the defensive side. Something has to not be getting through. He is so reactive and overcommits so much and just doesn’t seem to quarterback the defense in the way great bigs do.
I do think that’s a skill that does develop. But it’s not happening fast enough with Mitch.
I think Randle will continue getting more minutes for two reasons.
1. Thibs wants another shot creator in the starting lineup given we have spacing issues and a possession for us often comes down to someone having to create something that’s at least reasonable.
2. They would probably still happily trade Randle if the right deal comes up. But first they have to re-establish his trade value by showing he can play in a more team oriented way without melting down regularly.
Obi has shown real improvement in the early going. Just like he did last year. His numbers are great and his three point shots no longer look like UFOs on a collision course with Area 51.
And not that it matters but he is also the most exciting player to watch we have ever had on the team.
Maybe he isn’t a future franchise cornerstone but how can you not like Obi?
He has done everything that we wish RJ would do.
“But he can still shake things up a lot more than he has.”
Been very pleased with the rotation ‘experimentation’ of late, although the complaint about last game not riding the hot hands, taking them out and then reinserting them later when they’d cooled off, was true and maddening.
“I personally don’t have a super strong take on Obi’s ceiling, because I’m not sure how anyone could. He has never played so much as 18 minutes per game in his career.”
Bingo.
I get sad every time I watch Halliburton play. Obi is fine, but that was a totally botched pick, not on the level of Frank or Knox, but pretty damn bad.
Question: what happens if this team loses 9 out of its next 11 games? Something that is well within the parameters of “possible.”
“He has done everything that we wish RJ would do.”
Das right…if we switched the names on the jerseys…i don’t think anyone would be upset with Barrett geting the 15 minutes a game and Obi getting more run…at least he can finish around the rim..
-I think concerns about his defense are a tad overstated, because there are only so many opposing 4s who can really exploit him and he at least tries.
differ here. his awesome motor has made up for some of his defense weaknesses, but damn they are there. he will be mercilessly hunted on switches in the playoffs and he is an abysmal help defender as a second big. despite the solid plus minus, i think he is going to give back a lot on defense in a playoff situation almost no matter what happens with his development.
-However, Obi also has skills Randle does not have–if there are 6 or more seconds left on the shot clock, I would prefer the ball be in Obi’s hands. I think Obi’s shot creation abilities are *a little* underrated because he creates shots in ways other than dribbling into a midrange jump shot. Still a very long way to go on this front, to be clear.
also differ here, at least if it’s against a good defense, trying hard. he’s a good passer. he can definitely do a thing or two on close outs beyond just using his top percentile leaping. but his handle is below average for a g league 4 and his live dribble decision making only seems work against shitty defense. i do think he has more potential than we’ve seen as a short roll guy, bc he hasn’t gotten the reps. just talking about ball in hands situations here. as a long roller or dunker’s spot or transition finisher he’s plainly better.
I guess there are two camps here:
-We don’t know who Obi really is because he never plays as much as 18mpg (Everyone other than Z-man?)
-We know exactly who Obi is and understand why he doesn’t play more than 18mpg, although we wished he played a lot more because he’s fun! (only Z-man?)
Edit: Z-man and ptmilo?
doesn’t seem like all that long ago we never ever seemed to get any easy buckets…obi gets easy buckets…
I’d like to see him at small forward for some minutes…
There are still way too many shot attempts for the low-eFG% duo of Randle and RJ. I’m having a hard time seeing how you put a good offense together with both of those guys on the floor. I know RJ is still not at his peak, but man it sure would be nice to see SOME development out of him. The longer he plays badly, the lower his ceiling gets.
“he will be mercilessly hunted on switches in the playoffs and he is an abysmal help defender as a second big. despite the solid plus minus, i think he is going to give back a lot on defense in a playoff situation almost no matter what happens with his development.”
Completely agree, but what I was getting at is it’s quite possible he might be better at actually getting us to the playoffs than Randle. He might be a better innings eater of sorts. Once we’re there we can worry about this, among other things. I don’t think the fact that he seems like a lock to get exploited in the playoffs justifies not playing him in the regular season, including against teams that don’t have the personnel to exploit him or anyone else for that matter.
“but his handle is below average for a g league 4 and his live dribble decision making only seems work against shitty defense.”
Agree on his handle (though it looks a tick better to me than it did as a rookie), a little higher on his live dribble decision making in general.
Obi is probably our best prospect.
Obi is a limited prospect.
Both of these things are true, which speaks for itself.
just checked his “advanced” stat stuff…still not a very pretty picture for RJ…
“Question: what happens if this team loses 9 out of its next 11 games? Something that is well within the parameters of “possible.”
Ess-dog, first I’m not seeing the team going 2-9 — they play hard, and while they also play periodically stupid (so they won’t go 9-2) they’ll win games.
Even if they did go 2-9 I think the front office is conservative enough that they don’t dump Thibs at that point. My guess is we’ve got him through the end of the year regardless.
However, what does happen definitely depends on WHY they go 2-9. If it’s clear Thibs has lost the locker room, then maybe. I just don’t see him losing the locker room with this bunch of players. He could lose Randle because petulance, but not the others. At least not until deep into a losing season.
I’d be more interested to see if Thibs actually shakes things up if they go 2-9. Which sadly I’m not convinced he would do…
“We know exactly who Obi is and understand why he doesn’t play more than 18mpg, although we wished he played a lot more because he’s fun! (only Z-man?)”
I think you can put me in that category.
He doesn’t play because he’s not as good an overall player as Randle and on this team the starting lineup needs Randle’s skillset more than Obi’s. On another team, maybe Obi would be playing more.
General comment directed at no one:
I hate to say these kind of things because I’m not anti stat, but you aren’t going to figure out what the coach is thinking, why, and why he’s right by looking at boxscore stats and TS%. It’s about what is contributing to those stats, skillsets, fit, and what works best at the team level on both sides.
Holding on to Grimes and one or two extra picks was Leon’s biggest mistake because it led to RJ’s extension.
All these picks are great on a TV soundbite but they’re low value in real life. Just Nickles and Dimes and that Leon needs to somehow consolidate into quarters but he’s not getting a dollar bill with this.
https://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Knicks.htm
I mean look, if the Knicks believe Obi Toppin is too limited to play 18 minutes per game, then the Knicks should not have drafted Obi Toppin 8th overall (with rumors swirling they wanted to trade up to 5th to secure him) over the objections of the Knickerblogger hive mind.
We’ll obviously never get the value we could’ve out of that pick because Haliburton is playing like a guy who could get down-ballot MVP votes, but it would be malpractice to get pretty much nothing out of it.
We clearly didn’t have “energy big off the bench” in mind when we made the pick, so we should find out if Obi can be whatever we thought we were getting.
TNFH, I continue to disagree with your premise that Obi playing Randle’s minutes would have a beneficial impact on our record.
I agree with strat’s reasoning that Obi is getting lots of room and margin for error (i.e. defenses not game-planning for him beyond “keep an eye on him in transition and don’t give him a free run to the basket.” If he played more and played well, he’d draw more attention and personally I don’t think he could handle being D’d up by good defensive wings or, heaven forbid, double-teamed.
Many of us initially characterized Obi as Amar’e Lite. We all know that Amar’e had major concerns on the defensive end. However, he was MUCH better offensively than Obi and at least physically imposing on defense due to his size. With Obi, you get marginally worse defense but in a league that has shifted play to the perimeter where lapses cost 3 points instead of 2. Then you have a guy that is likely easily neutralized on the offensive end if he gets more attention.
At least with Julius, you get a brand of bully-ball that Obi simply can’t measure up to. Randle has situational awareness issues too, but at least he can impose his physical will on both ends. Randle draws second defenders much of the time. Obi never does. Randle bodies up bigger players on D. Obi can’t.
Nevertheless, I’d love to be proven wrong and would rather watch Obi than Julius anyway. I’m just not very optimistic about Obi’s ceiling based on what I’ve seen. The pundits who refer to his ceiling as “energy guy off the bench on a good team” are seeing the same things I’m seeing.
As to his draft slot vs. outcome, high-level energy big off the bench who could start in a pinch is not a bad place to be pigeonholed for a miss.
“There are still way too many shot attempts for the low-eFG% duo of Randle and RJ. I’m having a hard time seeing how you put a good offense together with both of those guys on the floor.”
I agree. You can’t put a top offense together as currently constructed, but you can do things to help both of them now and potentially fix one of them more later.
1. We got a good PG. That is helping.
2. Hart helps with spacing a little (at least better than Mitch).
3. We can trade Randle, get a true high level stretch PF, and open the floor better for RJ, Brunson, and Mitch when he plays .
4. RJ can continue to slowly inch forward
There is also a reasonable possibility that RJ is going to continue with a career high 2p% and FT% now and the more volatile 3P% will normalize at around 35% before further improvement and better team construction.
DM and RJ are basically the same contract. Today it looks like Leon blew it but time will tell. Having DM, JB and cap space to sign someone would have been better than no cap space but a ton of draft picks.
“I mean look, if the Knicks believe Obi Toppin is too limited to play 18 minutes per game, then the Knicks should not have drafted Obi Toppin 8th overall”
That was as close to a unanimous conclusion as I’ve ever seen on this board. But once you have him, see how exciting and likeable he can be in spurts, notice that he is improving every year, you keep rooting to have initially been wrong. I think that ship has sailed now given how well Haliburton is playing, but Obi can still get better.
All you do is wonder whether behind the scenes Haliburton specifically said he did not want to play for NY and Obi was screaming to play here. Because we needed a PG more than a PF.
“At least with Julius, you get a brand of bully-ball that Obi simply can’t measure up to. Randle has situational awareness issues too, but at least he can impose his physical will on both ends. Randle draws second defenders much of the time. Obi never does. Randle bodies up bigger players on D. Obi can’t.”
Eventually, the results have gotta be there. I don’t even disagree with any of this in a vacuum–I said right off the bat that Randle has skills Obi doesn’t have–but the “what positive outcomes on a basketball court does this stuff lead to” question can’t just be ignored.
We’re working on the second consecutive year, and third out of four, of mediocre-to-bad results for both Randle individually and the team. At some point you have to question the notion that these skills are so essential we can’t possibly let Randle play 29 minutes in any game.
Wow Nash got canned. Not that surprised tho
Nash out in Brooklyn. I am sure bending to the will of Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving will work out just great this time.
I would never wish this on a player, but as an intellectual curiosity I’d be curious to see what would happen if Randle twisted an ankle and Obi was put in the starting unit for 3-5 games that actually matter (not like last year). I’m sure Obi would continue to be more efficient in terms of TS%, but would the overall offense and defense function better or worse? Maybe we’ll get to see that at some point.
The other thing to keep in mind is that Obi IS getting better. So a time may come where Thibs decides NOW is the time to give him more minutes and that could be the right decision also because he’s better.
BTW, 4 of the guys drafted before him…Wiseman, Okongwu, Okoro and Hayes (yuck!) are all coming off the bench and getting less than 20 mpg. Patrick Williams is getting 21mpg as a starter and sucking. Avdija is starting but playing 17mpg and also sucking. Jalen Smith is a 2-way player getting starter’s minutes on a tanking team and also sucking. So I don’t buy the “if the Knicks believe Obi Toppin is too limited to play 18 minutes per game, then the Knicks should not have drafted Obi Toppin 8th overall” narrative.
And I know we stupidly whiffed on Hali (said so at the time) and it looks like Vassell is breaking out and lots of folks here liked him over Obi as well. But most of the picks in the area that Obi was drafted are looking like they are on the same developmental trajectory as him, if not even flatter.
Nash deserves another shot to coach a team at some point. You can only do so much with a bunch of star players that should probably spend more time in therapy than on a basketball court.
so KD and KI, co-player coaches…. of course.
“I’m just not very optimistic about Obi’s ceiling based on what I’ve seen.”
Z–Man, I don’t really disagree with your assessment, but there’s one data point — or rather five — that suggests the possibility of otherwise. Which were the five games at the end of last year where Obi got serious run in. Admittedly they were against tankers and others that didn’t much give a damn at that point, but he ran ragged over professional NBA players. It happened. Could it happen regularly? I’d love to find out.
yea, steve nash was definitely the primary problem with the new jersey swamp dragons
“So I don’t buy the “if the Knicks believe Obi Toppin is too limited to play 18 minutes per game, then the Knicks should not have drafted Obi Toppin 8th overall”
I think the main reason people feel that way is that Haliburton would have been a popular pick here, it wasn’t some kind of reach to be smart enough to take him, we needed a PG, and he’s a star on the rise. It was similar to Knox and Mikal Bridges. Missing out on Mitchell hurts because he was supposedly our 2nd choice in that draft, but several teams made that same mistake. It was more of a reach and less of a fit for what we were trying to do back then.
It is definitely the case that if the Knicks think Obi Toppin is an energy big off the bench, they shouldn’t have drafted him 8th overall. Didn’t think that one was particularly controversial. It is still the case even if other teams have made mistakes with their own picks I might opine on more frequently if this was wizardsblogger dot net.
While I wouldn’t wish an injury to anyone on our team, I would not be all that upset to see Randle sustain some kind of non-serious injury (e.g. a broken metacarpal on his right hand) that kept him out for 3-4 weeks. I think we are unanimous that we’d like to see what Obi can do with more opportunity, and that’s the only way I can see it happening…unless Thibs joins Nash on the unemployment line.
Leon Rose is not particularly great at team building. There are a lot of redundancies on the Knicks– the best prospect is blocked by a flawed veteran, there are too many offense-oriented pieces, not enough switchable defenders, none of the frontcourt players are good perimeter shooters, not a lot of length defensively… This is not a versatile team.
We do have a lot of guys who are kind of interchangeable, so the depth is good, but there are just not a lot of combinations with these players that allows you to put a good, cohesive, balanced team on the floor.
I do know that low eFG% on offense is a death knell, you simply cannot contend with a bottom third eFG%, and I don’t know how you avoid that fate with RJ and Randle taking so many shots.
Nash needs to earn a 2nd chance like everyone else does. Let him go be an assistant for a 3-5 years and prove himself. Should have never got this highly coveted job coaching two HOF player divas to begin with. He obviously wasn’t ready.
Wow, there’s already talk about Udoka taking over? That’s bold.
“It is definitely the case that if the Knicks think Obi Toppin is an energy big off the bench, they shouldn’t have drafted him 8th overall. ”
But what the hell does this mean? Nothing, really.
Once you draft a guy, you are stuck with whatever he turns out to be. When the Knicks drafted Obi, they were probably hoping he would be what Banchero has been so far. Unfortunately, he’s been disappointing. There’s no getting around that. He is not developing as they hoped that he would.
And that’s okay! It happens!
So what do you do when that happens? You re-evaluate what you have and find the most appropriate role for who he turns out to be.
Your premise seems to be that teams should play players to the role for which they were drafted, no matter what. That is ludicrous. Every team I mentioned above drafted a player that they hoped could be a full-time starter. Most of them aren’t playing close to starter’s minutes, even in their third year. So what does saying “Hey, if you are coming to the realization that the player you drafted is better suited for a lesser (but still valuable) role than you had hoped when you drafted him, you should have drafted a different player!” offer beyond the incredibly obvious point that if your draft pick disappoints, you should have drafted someone else?
Isn’t Udoka under contract with the Celtics? He was suspended, not waived/fired.
I think it matters when you’re drafting the oldest guy in the draft. If you’re drafting the oldest guy in the draft with the 8th pick and you don’t plan on him getting starter’s minutes right away, then you shouldn’t draft the oldest guy in the draft with the 8th pick.
And that’s beyond, “You should obviously draft the stud point guard who’s right there.”
“But what the hell does this mean? Nothing, really.”
*******************************
It means it was uber-idiotic to fixate and obsess about Obi Toppin when Tyrese Halliburton, borderline superstar PG, was likely to be on the board — and still was.
Obi’s not a bust; he’s an NBA player and a decent one. (*) But taking him over Hali was idiotic. We all on the board wanted Hali — why didn’t Leon? It’s … you know … his job … to take Hali over Obi.
(*) I think he peaks as a Tier 5 if you use the Athletic ratings.
“When the Knicks drafted Obi, they were probably hoping he would be what Banchero has been so far. ”
*********************
You’re doing that thing again where you (1) attribute imaginary thinking to the Knicks in the absence of any evidence they actually thought that thing; and (2) would be stupid af even if they did think it.
I’ll go back to what I thought the team was doing at the time – drafting Randle’s eventual replacement (which I do recall seeing was cited as a “team need” on some draft sites). At the same time, maybe this time next year Obi is a starter actually putting up 22/8/4 and Hali is still outproducing him. So in a vacuum, the team should’ve drafted Hali.
That said, there’s a legit reality where this team continues to rehab Randle’s value to the point they can trade him a the deadline (which could be the plan for all we know). Then it becomes “yes, Hali is better, but Obi ultimately allowed the team to trade Randle for…” which potentially could have as much future impact (or more) on the team vs drafting Hali.
“Unfortunately, he’s been disappointing.”
He hasn’t played one full season’s worth of minutes. He’s been objectively good in the minutes he’s been given and the team has had success with him on the court. I don’t know how you could possibly conclude this.
“Every team I mentioned above drafted a player that they hoped could be a full-time starter. Most of them aren’t playing close to starter’s minutes, even in their third year.
Career minutes:
Williams : 2,555 (season ending injury in there)
Okoro: 4,251
Okongwu: 1,751 (half season injury in there, plays the same position as Collins/Capela)
Hayes: 2,454 (season ending injury in there)
Avdija: 3,361
Obi: 2,006
So the reference to Obi’s underperforming draft peers actually *supports* the idea that he should be playing a hell of a lot more, because he’s been better than all of these guys and playing less than them.
Cyber, here’s Woj:
I imagine the Celtics are looking for any way they can to extricate themselves from the mess Udoka made, even though he appears to be an excellent coach. And what’s one more controversy for the Nets franchise at this calamitous point?
In retrospect, it looks like the Obi pick was one of those situations where Leon just locked in on one guy rather than actually knowing all the possibilities and ranking the locked-in guy against all other possibilities. Since none of us had seen it happen yet, we were caught unaware — but now we’ve seen more and know better.
And to think he was actually going to give up assets — possibly significant ones — to trade up …..
Yeah, it actually makes a lot of sense, honestly.
“I think it matters when you’re drafting the oldest guy in the draft. If you’re drafting the oldest guy in the draft with the 8th pick and you don’t plan on him getting starter’s minutes right away, then you shouldn’t draft the oldest guy in the draft with the 8th pick.”
I totally agree that they shouldn’t have drafted Obi in the first place, for a whole bunch of reasons, his age being an important one. I disagree that you should factor his age all that much into how much he plays after you draft him if you are trying to win as many games as possible. He’s under team control for 4 years no matter what, and either he develops as a late bloomer (which was probably the hope) or he doesn’t.
The disagreement we have here is whether one can tell who Obi really is and what he’s capable of without playing him starter’s minutes for an extended period. I think you absolutely can, and trust that Thibs knows exactly who he is and what he is currently capable of. Many here feel otherwise, and that his stats demand more playing time.
What we have in common is that we’d both like to find out where the truth lies.
WRT the Mitchell trade, I was happy the Knicks didn’t empty the cupboards for him, because it felt too much like the ‘Melo deal. The Knicks gave up too much for a guy that wasn’t going to get them to the Conference Finals. And in the end that hurt the franchise more than helped them.
If they had gotten ‘Melo in FA, that would have been a ton better for the team & they would have have more pieces to work with to improve the team.
So in a way that’s what I’m hoping the lesson is here. That instead of overpaying for the first guy (which they often do) they wait until the right deal comes along. Something along the lines of the KG to Boston, Harden to Houston, or Kawhi to Toronto. Looking for that player/team combo that isn’t working and swooping in at a better price than they would have paid.
I’d rather wait and have the assets compiling, than overpay and go all-in on the wrong pot. Sure it sucks to be in purgatory, but it’s worse than hell (see: NYK 2001-2010, 2014-2020)
I just realized I may have engaged in some mental gymnastics, lol.
It probably would’ve been easier for the team to draft Hali vs draft Randle’s eventual replacement. You still gotta factor in that no one saw ’20-21 Randle coming, though.
That said: we know what Randle is, and we don’t quite know what Obi can be. Even if this is a 45-win team, there isn’t anyone (sans Brunson… maybe) who should be untouchable. I think the way to go is to move Randle by the deadline and give Obi half a season to show if he can be a legit starter. And go from there.
“So the reference to Obi’s underperforming draft peers actually *supports* the idea that he should be playing a hell of a lot more, because he’s been better than all of these guys and playing less than them.”
Actually, it sort of shows that playing someone more minutes has no beneficial impact on their development. But we already know that, don’t we? See: Ntilikina, Frank; Knox, Kevin.
“I think the way to go is to move Randle by the deadline and give Obi half a season to show if he can be a legit starter. And go from there.”
I’d be totally on board with this. Ain’g gonna happen while Thibs is here, though.
Julius Randle simply is not conducive to winning basketball games. It’s even worse when his game is duplicative and interferes with the games of others, but that’s an add-on problem, not the fundamental one. He was conducive to winning basketball games in a chunk of time that was clearly an outlier fluke, and then once the crowds and heat got turned back up to something approaching normal, he became dreadful again.
Yes, it would be better to see if he can somehow “rehabilitate” his value but at some point, it’s just time to get rid of him. That time started quite some time ago.
This team simply needs to find some way to get a truly elite player and they seem to have no idea at all how to do it, other than just hope. They do not have that kind of player now — or really even close. They have a passable collection of decent players, but that isn’t really conducive to much in the association as currently constructed.
They’re aimlessly treading water. The empty building season, and all that went in to it and came out of it, was a disaster. In terms of responsibility, how can it be argued that evaluating the sustainability and potential future state of a season and a season’s roster isn’t a core component of a GM’s job? It was Leon Rose’s job to see the empty building season for what it was. He failed badly at that task. The clean-up is going to take years.
—
“Actually, it sort of shows that playing someone more minutes has no beneficial impact on their development. But we already know that, don’t we? See: Ntilikina, Frank; Knox, Kevin.”
I’m not saying we should play Obi more to develop him, though it’s possible that would be an added benefit.
I’m saying we should play Obi more to see if Obi can continue playing like he’s already played.
Shams and Woj both say Udoka is already negotiating with Brooklyn for the job. Let’s run through this, shall we?
* Flat-earther, anti-vaxxer point guard who is now going all-in on anti-Semitism
* Superstar forward who agitated to get the last two coaches, as well as the current GM, fired, and who very loudly asked to be traded in the offseason
* An incoming head coach who lost his last job for an inappropriate workplace relationship and then harassing the other half of said inappropriate relationship
* A guard/forward/center/something who is afraid to shoot the ball, has a body that seems to be breaking down before our eyes, and who is also struggling with mental health issues (that a good chunk of basketball fandom does not believe are real)
* All their own draft picks for the forseeable future are controlled by Houston, and while they have some picks from Philly, they are not likely to be great picks unless Philly also implodes
So it’s going great over there.
An upgrade!
yeah but – tyrese haliburton, so there…
BK has the window of the rest of the season to see if a new coach can be the catalyst for getting this insane group of narcissists* into at least the ECF. I’m sure they were in touch with Udoka prior to rifting Nash.
* they certainly lead the NBA by a wide margin in alienating huge portions of their fan base and the general population of their city.
oh my goodness E…totally imagining this black cloud above your head moving in sync with your body…intermittent rain, thunder and lightning…
to remedy this malaise, i’d gently recommend porn, drugs and/or god…
eternal sunshine of the spotless mind time for E…all memory of the new york knicks, wiped for ever…
If we’re LOL Knicks, then Brooklyn is LOLOLOLOLOL Nets.
and if you look at his stats page, RJ Barrett…
i have a lot of faith in dj phan’s basketball acumen…
it’s hard though to not see someone who is detrimental to winning by looking at his stats…
i remember some reference from before where someone mentioned that pretty much almost no one with similar vorp or bpm over the same number of years ever climbed out of the hole RJ is down in stats wise…
i mean, he doesn’t even rate as a good defensive player…he’s mostly like an inefficient offensive player and bad D kind of guy it seems…
To switch gears from rehashing history and never-was and never-will-be, Katz has a nice piece including this bit:
‘The Knicks’ average offensive possession after allowing a made basket was 18.2 seconds last season, the fourth-slowest pace in the NBA during those situations, according to inpredictable.com. But this season, it’s changed. They’ve sliced 1.7 seconds off their time in the half court — and they’re playing at the fifth-fastest pace after allowing makes.’
https://theathletic.com/3751221/2022/11/01/knicks-numbers-julius-randle/
Oh man, Geo ragging on RJ! The end is nigh.
“Cam Reddish (non COVID illness) is also questionable.”
Drats, I was counting on this being the Cam Revenge Game.
Randle is better player than Obi = FACT
Obi is a better fit with RJ. = FACT
Obi vs. Randle is a decision of suboptimal choices. We make these decisions in everyday life and they’re not binary. We may want to consider framing it this way:
Does adding 10 minutes of additional of playing time to Obi while RJ is on the floor improve the net rating of the team? – if the answer is “Yes, it does” than you do it and explain the “why” to Julius so that he buys in.
I believe there was some Cade Cunningham hate here a while ago. Here’s the latest for consideration:
‘Over the last four games, Cunningham is averaging 27.7 points per game while shooting 49 percent from the field’
If Obi’s shooting is real, and I believe it is, this becomes a much more interesting conversation.
For now let’s wait and see if Randle’s 3p% can settle in at something over 30%.
Look, you had me at hello when it comes to the question of whether Obi should play more. He should. Which is why Thibs is the wrong guy for this job.
But in the win-now world the FO has decided to live in, I am supremely confident that at the end of the season, we will have as many if not more wins than under nearly every other coach in the association.
And if Thibs decides that the best way to get all of those wins is to play Obi 15-20 minutes a night, never play Randle and Obi together, and other stuff that pisses us off as holders of a longer view of the implications of playing time, will probably just have to live within that box.
And I doubt that any other box would increase the win total we wind up with, given this personnel. If another coach would do things differently, it would probably be better in some areas and worse in others. In other words, I am highly skeptical that the coach that marginalizes Randle, unleashes Obi, and gets more wins out of this roster all at the same time exists.
mysterious omission of the prior 4 games eh
(spoiler: he shot 38% and his team got outscored by 12.5 PPG)
My buddy saw Nash trick or treating last night. Wonder if he knew the ax was about to fall.
I like Nash and I assume he is delighted to be let out of the asylum.
Cade is definitely a wait-and-see for me
For all you Haliburton c*ckriders, so far in the 2022-23 season:
Higher 2pt%: Toppin
Higher 3pt%: Toppin
Higher efg (since some ppl don’t like ts%): Toppin
Higher rebound%: Toppin
Higher asst%: Haliburton
Higher DBPM: Toppin
Higher usg%: Hali but it’s closer than you’d think
I’m actually on Z-Man’s side here. In fact I’d be looking to shop Obi this year because I think he’s at peak value, i.e. more than one year on his deal and he hasn’t been exposed yet.
I’d love Obi to be the first guy off of the bench so he gets more run with the starters- are those leak outs going to be available against the other teams first units? How much worse would his defense look against starters? Even if the minute distribution stays close to where it is (with Randle seeing more minutes with the second unit) we’d have a better idea of where he actually is at the moment. It’ll never happen under Thibs though.
Because I’ve committed my entire heart and soul to not doing anything worthwhile today (so far so good), here’s AOKAAK brainiac Luke Kornet waxing philosophical about jumping straight up far away from three-point shooters. Because maybe it works.
https://theathletic.com/3749921/2022/11/01/celtics-luke-kornet-contesting-3s/
And for the record, Zach Harper THRASHES Luke for this in his weekly rankings, when discussing the Celtics (FYI, he puts the Cavs at #4, a spot above the Celts).
https://theathletic.com/3724120/2022/10/31/nba-power-rankings-week-3/
What the fuck are the Nets doing? Do they just want to play the villain role and that’s it, no fucks given? Hiring Udoka right now with all the shit that’s already happening with them, it’s just mind blowing.
The Nets are doing a smart thing. Since their only ticket to an NBA finals appearance goes through Kyrie and KD, and they have a team that theoretically can get there, why not hire the coach who just coached his team to the Finals, and is an expert on one of the teams that stands in their way?
As to reputation, once you are in cahoots with Kyrie and KD, you are not going to wash the stink off with a new coach, so might as well go with more stink.
As to my opinion of Udoke, unless he committed some sort of violent crime, I’m a huge believer in forgiveness and redemption unless we’re talking about a repeat offender. I’d be fine with the Knicks hiring him with the stipulation that he’s on a very, very short leash.
1. Sorry, I refuse to accept any post that tries to make the case that Obi is better than Haliburton (or even close). 🙂
2. Thibs is doing nothing wrong in the Randle/Obi debate. Neither is ideal for different reasons, but Randle is the more versatile and superior player at this stage. In another 2-3 months that may not be true or Randle may be gone. Wanting to see more of Obi is not the same as him deserving the minutes over Randle at their present skill/fit level.
Remember Montauk! 😉
I think the Nets are doing whatever Durant/Kyrie want them to do.
The players probably don’t give a crap if Udoke had a consensual affair in Boston even if was against the Celtics rules and without me personally knowing what else he did, they probably don’t care much about that either. So here we are.
@Geo I have a copy of Aja on vinyl that I bought in the early ’80s. I had to pull it out after seeing your post the other day. It is one of my all-time favorites! It’s amazing how similar our musical tastes are.
I really want to believe that RJ can be a great player, but I just can’t see it. He just doesn’t have the shooting ability or the athleticism. I would love to see Obi get about 5-10 of RJ’s minutes a night. If Thibs can’t find a way to get Obi 20+ minutes a night, he needs to go.
It’s worth mentioning the reporting from this summer doesn’t jibe with the “the Knicks saw all they needed to see in 2000 minutes and concluded Obi Toppin is shorter JaVale McGee” theory.
Begley said he caught the eye of multiple members of the front office, and that members of the coaching staff were projecting an increased role for him this year.
The fact that this has not materialized indicates, and stop me if you’ve heard this before, a disconnect between the front office and the, um, “coaching staff.”
Well, Leon said publicly that he is leaving all decisions about rotations and minutes up to Thibs. So if that’s the case, and yet there’s a disconnect, something will eventualy have to give. My guess is everything depends on how the team does. If they are at or above .500 after 40 or so games and Julius continues to play within a team concept like he has, the fans and media probably won’t be too restless, and Thibs is probably safe for the rest of the season no matter what happens. If not, i.e if Julius starts to play selfishly again and pout when the fans hold him accountable while Thibs doesn’t, I would expect these “anonymous” voices to get louder, both privately and publicly, and for something to give.
Aja is great. I’m also partial to The Royal Scam.
In the early days of the pandemic I started learning Steely Dan guitar solos, started with Kid Charlemagne and Don’t Take Me Alive. Larry Carlton. Never got around to Peg but that’s next.
“The fact that this has not materialized indicates, and stop me if you’ve heard this before, a disconnect between the front office and the, um, “coaching staff.””
Let’s assume this is even correct.
The front office’s job is to get the best players it can that hopefully also fit the vision of the coach.
The coach’s job is to decide how many minutes each player plays, at what position, which combinations work best together, how best to use their talents etc…
If the coach disagrees with the front office about a player (Thibs wanted to keep Bullock for example) he can express that point of view to the front office, but if they don’t want to pay player X, Y amount for Z years, he has to stay in his own lane.
If the front office disagrees with the minutes allocation or style of play they can express that point of view to the coach, but they have to stay in their own lane.
If the front office and coach are constantly disagreeing about players, playing times, style etc…everyone has a problem.
If the coach is failing to win as many games as the talent indicates he should, he has a problem.
We have no problem here just because Bullock is in Dallas now and Obi isn’t getting more minutes yet. It’s a made up problem. We have 2 PFs. Only one can be on the court at a time if you actually want to defend the paint. In Thib’s opinion. Randle is still the better overall player. End of controversy until Obi defends a little better, rebounds a little better, and creates a little better. It’s not an ideal situation, but Thibs gets to decide. IMO he’s obviously right at this stage. We can keep revisiting it during the season.
All this talk of Aja has lodged “Peg” back into my head, guys. I am not complaining. Mostly. But maybe my kids are as I keep humming it.
It’s not fair to compare Obi’s shooting to Halliburton’s. If they have the same shooting percentages Halliburton is more valuable because point guards typically shoot worse than forwards.
Agreed. But if Obi turns out to be a 38% three point shooter, and I will still take the under, that changes how you have to view him on offense.
I am pretty curious about where he ends up. His shot does look better.
Going to the game tomorrow for an in person review. Pretty excited.
Aja is definitely up there in my all-time fave album list. The songs that are the best for me, by a pretty wide margin, are Black Cow and Deacon Blues. Those two might be my two favorite Steely Dan songs. Tom Scott’s sax work on Black Cow is top, top shelf, especially the solo at the end.
Obi & Hali can both be good 🤷♂️
I remember learning the Kid Charlemagne solo back in the day- it’s a great one break down because it’s series of pretty short distinct phrases strung together. It really lends itself to being learned a few bars at a time. And it’s great! Did you cheat and use a youtube tutorial?
This Nets-Bulls game is fun…
I don’t normally focus much on drummers when I listen to music, but check out Steve Gadd at the end of Aja (the song). Just sublime.
I’ve seen Steely Dan a bunch of times and Fagen always brings in top notch musicians. And the last time I saw them the backup singers were also phenomenal
Zach LaVine is bustin’ the Nets’ ass!
Rangers OT win
Nets losing
Wife making chocolate chip cookies 🍪
Life is good…
Durant has made three pretty horrific turnovers….
That’s a nice trifecta, pepper!
Dosunmu having himself a great 2-way game…
And fuck Kyrie
Aja is awesome instrumentally, but Pretzel Logic remains my favorite Dan album, and I cannot be convinced otherwise.
gotta chill that dough
“gotta chill that dough”
oh..its chillin as we speak…the wifey has choc chips cookies down…
Man, Owen, I think tomorrow’s game will be an awesome one to be in the stands. Better practice your F TRAE YOUNG chant beforehand!
I usually use tablature to learn complicated guitar stuff. Most of those Larry Carlton solos I can pick out by ear, but I’ll use tablature to figure out the faster passages.
The last run in the Don’t Take Me Alive solo is really hard to play cleanly at full speed. If I was on tour and playing guitar for an hour a day at soundcheck I’d probably be able to nail it.
It’s funny how different Amare’s Black Hebrew episode felt as opposed to Kyrie’s. Amar’e came off as a little eccentric but kind of charming while Kyrie just seems completely toxic.
that must be like pure joy engaging in that activity…interacting and immersing yourself in music you love…
i got a buddy who’s a big cure fan…i can listen to the extended version of Pictures of You for hours on end…
i’m also familiar with some of the other more popular songs from the group…i had never really like listened to a collection of their music for a couple of hours…when i tried to do so i quickly realized a lot of it sounded the same – forlorn love….
huge doses of unrequited love…it doesn’t really make me feel good, even in a bad way…mostly, just makes me feel pity for whomever feels like that a lot…
so, after listening through aja about a billion times recently – i’ve suddenly discovered pretty much the whole album is love songs – more to the point jilted, jaded sort of cynical love songs…
except for aja, that’s like more a feeling of some kind of zen journey…
” i got a buddy who’s a big cure fan…i can listen to the extended version of Pictures of You for hours on end…”
the cure rule..i can listen to Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me over and over…some real good vocal and guitar stuff on that double album…
Why do you chill chocolate chip cookie dough? And us that so it’s chilled when you put it in the oven?
okay, yeah it starts at about the 6:56 mark, that is pretty crisp, no slow end for that song…i imagine it’s a great show…it would be cool to hear aja live just to see all the instruments used to create the sound…
“Why do you chill chocolate chip cookie dough?”
My wife says it prevents the cookie from loosing shape/flattening…I believe it helps to maintain the strucuture…but Jowles probably has the science aspect of it better than me…
I guess it depends on if you want the cookie thick and crispy or soft and chewy
i just want it with milk…mmmm, cold whole non-homogenized milk from a bottle…
chewy, crunchy, makes no difference to me 🙂
the cure rule..
so i guess you’re not getting this sad, mopey: i never get or keep the love of my life/the moment, kind of vibe from their music?
what’s interesting is that my buddy who really digs them, also likes metal…
it’s hard from me to put those two together…
Suns….man, what could have been if we drafted Mikal and signed CP3…
“so i guess you’re not getting this sad, mopey: i never get or keep the love of my life/the moment, kind of vibe from their music?”
I think that is the general view of them is that Robert Smith generally writes about that stuff…but they have plenty of tunes that don’t have that mood to it
well…I think the Cure are like Exhibit A or most famous “goth rock” band…maybe that is what is the link to metal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptZhqvlbdp8
All I know about anything that has been discussed here today is that De La Soul mashed up Peg with Otis Redding and made a really good song
Geo, i come from the punk-rock and punk-hardcore movements and also love The Cure. 😛 They have a lot of styles, so that probably brings them different kinds of fans, like from the dark times with “Charlotte Sometimes”, and maybe more indie/alternative (i really am not that knowledgeable about music style names) on “Pictures of You”, “Just Like Heaven”, “Lovesong”, and others, then more accessible to people, with more uplifting songs like “Friday I’m in Love”. And there’s also a song totally different from the rest, “Burn” for the movie The Crow, that is also amazing but in a different way. Looks like the band almost didn’t “existed” at the time and so Robert did the song by himself with only the drummer helping him. They must have great stories to tell, i’d certainly like to hear a JK podcast about them. And Donnie is with me, i’m sure of it. 😉
Like the Cure all eras — a lot — and while not a metalhead, like a lot of metal. Different modes, different vibes, different moods.
This might be four or five years dated, not sure, but Steely Dan are definitely Friends of Dolan because they do shows for like a week straight each year at Dolan’s Beacon Theatre. One year (maybe more) they dedicated a couple shows to just playing Aja straight through.