The Jazz and Knicks have begun discussions on a potential trade to send three-time NBA All-Star Donovan Mitchell to New York, sources tell The Athletic.
The Jazz are having conversations with multiple teams on a Mitchell deal, but the Knicks have emerged as the focused destination over the past several days, sources said. Both sides have discussed a deal framework in the past 24 hours, those sources said.
The Knicks possess eight future first-round picks — four of their own and four acquired via trades — to use in a package. New York also has stockpiled young players, such as Quentin Grimes who is believed to be of interest to Utah, sources said.
If, as the saying goes, where there’s smoke, there’s fire, this is like Cheech and Chong just stepped into the room circa 1978. The Knicks and the Jazz just match up far too well from a typical NBA trade perspective. The Knicks have a lot of picks and no stars, the Jazz have a star and not as many picks as they would like, so the Knicks trade the picks for the star, everybody wins. Of course, as we know, that’s not necessarily how these things end up going, as the “win now” move doesn’t always result in winning…now, but that is clearly the THEORY here, at least. And it is what drives most NBA trades. This would be a VERY typical NBA GM trade and, as I’ve been saying for a while, Leon Rose has struck me as a pretty middle of the road NBA GM, so this sounds about right. There’s no real reputational risk for Rose, since he’ll have acquired a STAR and people generally give you a lot of PR leeway for doing that.
Now, do Donovan Mitchell and Jalen Brunson and RJ Barrett and Julius Randle and Mitchell Robinson make remote sense as a starting five? No, not really, but we’ve all seen the roster so far, right? – the roster already doesn’t make sense! There are too many guys for not enough minutes, a consolidation trade was almost a given, and this is a consolidation trade that also lands the Knicks a star.
I figure we’re looking at Grimes, Fournier (for his salary to make the salaries work), one of IQ and Obi (maybe both) and five picks (two Knick picks and then three picks they acquired from other teams). The Jazz obviously want nothing to do with RJ considering he’s becoming a free agent himself soon (or will have to be extended this offseason). You don’t trade Donovan Mitchell to then rebuild around RJ Barrett. You rebuild around the high picks you’ll get and just surround those picks with interesting young supporting cast guys like IQ, OBi and Grimes.
I’ll be frank (but not that Frank), the Knicks before this trade seemed to have a low ceiling. With this trade they…also have a pretty low ceiling, but they’ll have a star, at least, even if he’s more around Top 20 than Top 10. He’ll probably average like, 30 points a game or some shit. And I won’t deny that there IS some logic to the idea that having Mitchell here makes it more likely that another star would force himself here to play with Mitchell the way that he would never do to play with RJ and Jalen Brunson (maybe Mitch and Sims). Do I see that as a LIKELY scenario? No, and Mitchell and Brunson are a terrible fit together and when you add RJ at the three, that’s a small ass team, with RJ and Mitch having to cover a lot of the defensive ground, but it will still be a pretty good team with some upside if Thibs can teach Mitchell how to play defense.
I don’t think this deal is that big of a deal. It wouldn’t be great, but it wouldn’t be awful, either.
You’d probably be looking at…
Mitchell (Hopefully still Quickley, at least?)
Use the room to add someone else (a wing? A shooter?) and you have yourself an interesting team and a pretty clear All-Star in Mitchell. He has a LOT of faults, but he has a lot of pluses, too, so I’m not too down on this trade (but, again, a lot of that is because I was already down on the Knicks’ future plans, so this isn’t any worse than that).
And, for this dramatic moment, we return the Knicks…poll!Sorry, there are no polls available at the moment.
259 replies on “The Athletic: Knicks, Jazz engage in Donovan Mitchell trade talks”
Randle, Grimes and five firsts (though no more than two of the Knicks own) would be okay with me but getting rid of Randle is a big part of it. I still wouldn’t be thrilled. But I can’t imagine Utah wanting any part of Randle. Fournier plus multiple young guys plus 4 picks? No thanks.
I voted “no” but I reserve a definitive judgement for the final terms of the trade.
But yesterday I made a question: after this trade will we be in the same tier than Boston, Milwaukee and Miami or at least Philly?
If the answer is “yes”, than this move can be worthwhile.
If the answer is “no”, we’ve gone from a first round exit ceiling to… a first round exit ceiling, but with fewer assets than before.
i voted yes, very begrudgingly…
the size of our backcourt concerns me…who knows, maybe donovan starts playing defense again…
if our starting five includes brunson, mitchell and barrett – that’s like the land of the lilliputians out there…
and no, i myself am not even six foot, and i’m pretty sure i’ve shrunk a bit over the last decade or so…
one other thing – i keep reading folks using reddish’s name as though he’ll contribute something next season…honestly watching a few pre-season games makes me think i’d much rather have hunt on the bench than reddish…
I don’t love the idea of this trade because it’s not how I would like our team building strategy to work. But that ship sailed years ago. This regime is not going to prioritise high picks and player development over being competitive in the short term. Given that, trading for ‘stars’ is the only cars we really have to play to try to lift our ceiling. So I dunno, maybe.
One thing I would say – a few people yesterday suggested this was Leon ‘swinging at the first pitch’ and I don’t think that’s really true. Just last month the consensus was he was too cautious in never getting in on potential big moves. Seems to me he’s got a pretty clear idea of the profile of the star he’s willing to empty the chest for (which, healthily, seems to include them being relatively young). He’s also seemingly pretty clear on the max price he’s willing to give up. That doesn’t leave loads of candidates and in that sense this looks like a fairly logical move if you start from where he starts. He’s actually been pretty patient.
Doesn’t mean I’ll forgive him if he sends out Obi and IQ though.
This seems like an Isiah Thomas kind of move, which is to acquire the big name player regardless of fit or defensive ability. A Brunson/Mitchell backcourt really does not make a ton of sense, but hey! Star player!
This is also a little bit similar to acquiring Amar’e Stoudemire and then trading everything everything in the cupboard for a relatively duplicative player who doesn’t play a lot of defense in Carmelo Anthony.
I guess we have to see what is actually in the deal and whether or not it happens but this is not giving me a great feeling.
trying to figure out what it might look like:
unless ainge already knows he can flip barrett and randle easily – i agree with the folks yesterday saying it will be unlikely that ainge will want either barrett or julius…
brunson, mitchell, RJ, julius, mitch…that’s asking a lot of mitch…julius is gonna really have to defend well to make something like that work, plus keep grabbing boards…
quik, obi, grimes, fournier, plus 5 firsts…that is a lot for a guy rocking a negative career dbpm and who doesn’t rebound much (oh yeah…he turns the ball over a bunch too…
pretty sure we make the playoffs, a chance maybe at winning a playoff series…
i’m not worry about it to be honest – it ain’t like nobody on the knicks is fixing to give me a call to see what i think…what happens happens…
anyone else on the jazz roster we should be targeting in the deal?
To solve the spacing problem, the Knicks will play their home games in Yankee Stadium,
with the added benefit that Brunson, RJ and Randle can take advantage of the short porch in right field…
JK, it’s definitely going to be like Melo and Amare all over again. As you say, Melo didn’t fit with Amare and the Knicks never fixed that. Mitchell doesn’t fit with Brunson. We won’t have much, if any, back court defense. I’m not in favor at all. We can’t make the money work unless we trade good players who are young either. The Knicks with Melo and Amare didn’t really do that well as a playoff team either as I remember. If a team with Mitchell and Gobert can’t do well in the playoffs, I don’t see why we will do any better if we have Mitchell.
As you might guess, I voted no.
I voted no.
There are some iterations of the trade I could be okay with but Randle has to be included. If he is not traded I am a hard no.
I also wouldn’t want to lose more than one of our young core and no more than 2 NY picks and no more than 4 picks total.
I miss Steve Mills.
Voted yes. We run one year of Brunson and Donovan (please don’t say Mitchell to not confuse me with Mitch), and then we make more changes. This is step 1. Brunson and Donovan are going for age 26 season. We have time. This is not Isiah (bad players), Walsh (old and broken players) or Phil (primadonna with a no trade clause). We’re going for a young star and everybody is against it. I don’t get it. And we won’t overpay because that’s a thing i guess i’m comfortable with Leon. He went for Dejounte, but the price was too high. If Donovan’s price is too high, he won’t make a deal. It’ll be hard for another team to top our offer, so if i’m Leon i’d just make the offer and then i’d wait until Ainge calls back. No need to bid against ourselves.
By reading the last thread, i’d have guessed that the poll would be a lot more lopsided in favor of not wanting Donovan. I thought i was alone on Donovan island.
That’s the way to go, Geo. Come to Donovan island, it’s rather cheap right now, but next may when we’ll be playing the ECF everybody will want to come and i’ll charge a fortune for every piece of land. 😀
Is Luka a good defender? Brunson just made the conference finals with the same type of player. Of course, Donovan is no Luka, but he’s a very good player and Brunson is fresh of meshing well in a similar situation. Let them play and then we’ll know. They’re young, we can use one of them to trade for a better star, if the pairing doesn’t work. Or a star might want to come here play with them. Who knows if KD starts listing the Knicks as cool to come play with Donovan. RJ, Randle and the 2 or 3 picks we’ll be left with, and all of the sudden we’ll have Brunson, Donovan and KD (or a similar star). With a good C, we’ll just need a reliable PF. The Warriors grabbed Otto Porter for the minimum last year, and there’s always guys like him available every season, if you’re a contender.
Max, i think the answer is still “no”, but as i said i think this is step 1, that’s why i’m in favor of the move. If it’s just grab Donovan and then pray that the results will come, i’d be against it too. But i don’t think it is, we’re getting a player that fits the profile we wanted, and then we’ll need to re-tool the team around him to make the move more effective, or even better we’ll be candidates to trade for the next stars to be available. At the current rate, it’s 2 or 3 stars every year that demand a trade.
Question for someone more knowledgeable than me: if we extend RJ is there some sort of moratorium before we can trade him?
This seems like an Isiah Thomas kind of move, which is to acquire the big name player regardless of fit or defensive ability. A Brunson/Mitchell backcourt really does not make a ton of sense, but hey! Star player!
This is also a little bit similar to acquiring Amar’e Stoudemire and then trading everything everything in the cupboard for a relatively duplicative player who doesn’t play a lot of defense in Carmelo Anthony.
JK hit the nail on the head. I voted no and I’m surprised it’s as close as it is. Can’t we see what we have with this group for at least half a season before we f*** it up? We don’t know who will be available in the future, but someone will be. There always is. If we hadn’t just signed Brunson, I’d be fine with Mitchell. Pairing them at such a high cost seems really dumb to me.
JK47 * This seems like an Isiah Thomas kind of move, which is to acquire the big name player regardless of fit or defensive ability. A Brunson/Mitchell backcourt really does not make a ton of sense, but hey! Star player!*
Totally agree with JK (EDIT: and GH) but CYBER (?!) is now driving the Optimist Express, so I’m conflicted 😉
With Donovan and Brunson most likely we’ll spend two years hand-wringing on this board about “spacing, chemistry, lax D, both are too short, both need the ball in hand, CAA sucks, etc.” This “non-fit” narrative also gives Thibs an excuse, and I hate that.
But I love the Knicks, so … plus ça change.
Hahaha. Maybe it’s the heat wave here in Portugal that is making me not think straight. LOL
Going after Spida would have made a lot more sense if they hadn’t first signed Brunson. But now they’re locked in and I don’t see how you can possibly compete defensively in playoff games with a small backcourt of Spida and Brunson.
@Brian: Is there any chance to stop the morning news thread today? I think we should let this thread, and the poll, be the active thread until tomorrow.
I’d try to send DRose their way and get Beverley back. They’re the same age and make the same money, but Beverley is very good defensively and that would give Thibs a player to rotate with Brunson and Donovan, that would probably make the backcourt a positive defensively. If Brunson+Donovan are a disaster defensively, we even could avoid giving them a lot of minutes together and start using more the Beverley+Donovan with Brunson+Quick/Grimes (the one that wasn’t traded) as backup. Of course, because politics, Brunson and Donovan will start, but after 6 mins Thibs could switch to always have a defensive presence in the backcourt. Much in line with Elfrid starting but playing less minutes than DRose, two season ago.
Bottom line: I prolly prefer arguing about who should be on the floor (put Obi in!) rather than arguing about us having traded for the wrong guy. The latter seems a bigger and familiar problem (cf Melo).
I also don’t look forward to referring to this trade as that fateful day when future all stars Obi and IQ were stolen by Danny Ainge.
Greetings from Canton in NYs North Country! Glad to be away while nothing is going on in Knicksville.
If I’m on when the thread goes live, I can delete it, but other than that, not that I know of.
They have a lot of suitors for Pat Bev, so I find it hard to believe they’d expand the trade to include him. Ainge clearly feels like he has the guy the Knicks want, ya know? I don’t see him doing extra sweetening like that. Now, throwing Mike Conley in there, then yes, I could see that, but the Knicks shouldn’t want that.
Just another Pleasant Valley Thursday, here in trading draft picks land. Nothing to see here.
Brunson Mitchell RJ and Randle would be such a stupid team
OK – tell me who says no:
Knicks get –> Donovan Mitchell
Lakers get –> Randle, Derrick Rose, Jordan Clarkson, Cam Reddish
Jazz get –> Westbrook, 2 unprotected LA picks, 2 unprotected Knicks picks, 2 of our other picks
We get to keep our young players
Lakers are a win-now team – they get off Westbrook, get 4 rotation players that would basically rescue their depth again
Jazz have to eat Westbrook but get 4 unprotected picks and 2 protected picks – I assume they would just buy Westbrook out. Then they trade Conley and truly tear it down to the studs.
My sense is maybe the Lakers would say no, but maybe we kick them one of the protected 1sts we have.
If I’m the Lakers I think I would rather have this package than 1 year of crazy Kyrie? It would basically be an undoing of the Lakers/Wizards trade with the Lakers breaking Westbrook up into multiple rotation pieces.
By the way, I think Mitchell and Mitch are pretty easy to tell apart, name-wise. Mitchell is Donovan Mitchell’s last name, so he’s never going to be “Mitch,” while Mitchell is Mitchell Robinson’s first name, so he can be “Mitch.” So as long as we say “Mitchell” for Donovan Mitchell and “Mitch” for Mitchell Robinson, I don’t think that’s confusing.
I don’t like feeling smug about a prediction I didn’t want to be true, but I told you guys you should be much more worried about this happening than many of you seemed to be.
And I voted no. Melo Trade 2.0 all the way.
I mean, we already knew the Lakers could have traded Westbrook for Wall and given up just a single first round pick and they balked at that, so I doubt they’re giving up two to bring back those guys in return for Westbrook. Their firsts are just so important to them right now. If it’s not Kyrie coming for them, I don’t see them parting with them and instead will just try to see if Ham can work Westbrook into the flow of things better than Vogel did.
The announcement ruined a post I had partially written about how the trade seemed pretty darn likely to me (for the reasons laid out, that the fit was just too perfect and that the Knick roster currently doesn’t make sense, construction-wise, and a trade seemed imminent no matter what).
On Mitchells defense is he just laterally deficient on that end or is it more of an effort thing. Hes built strong and has an insane wingspan so hypothetically he could stick with a lot of two’s.
I’m still against the trade after the Brunson signing and I hope this isnt our all in move.
Alan *”And I voted no. Melo Trade 2.0 all the way.”
Totally. I can’t believe Rose will not see exactly that. He can’t sell the (young) farm. Unless the Melo narrative in the front office is the opposite of ours. Something more like: “Melo gave us some great years and was under appreciated. We’d do that trade again in a heartbeat.” — it’s madness!
Alan – IMHO the Melo-ness of this trade really depends on what the actual trade parameters are.
Our asset trove is much much deeper than it was back when we made the Melo trade. Back then, after we made the all-in move for Melo, we basically had nothing left other than the Tyson Chandler move which was honestly pretty awesome. And so w were stuck with no guard play and a duplicative front court with Melo/Amare, with Amare on his last legs as a supremely athletic player.
The Brunson/Mitchell fit is not great, but there theoretically could be more moves to make — assuming Rose does not get his clock cleaned by Ainge. I am hopeful that he is too shrewd a negotiator for that…. and that Dolan keeps himself out of the fray.
And Brian — I am not so sure the Lakers wouldn’t make that trade — Randle is still only 26ish, and I could see them looking at him as a buy-low talent just a little over a year from being a 2nd team All-NBA guy who is locked up for 4 years at a reasonable $ as the cap is rising. Randle as 3rd banana to AD and Lebron might just clear his head and reorient him. They showed interest in Cam last trade deadline. Rose and Clarkson are legitimate rotation players that would/could play real playoff minutes.
On Mitchells defense is he just laterally deficient on that end or is it more of an effort thing. Hes built strong and has an insane wingspan so hypothetically he could stick with a lot of two’s.
it’s mostly effort. he looked like a pretty damn good defender as a rookie. his defense has substantially tailed off since, and even his playoff motor has been desultory. there aren’t a ton of examples of tiny tandems playing good playoff defense in the modern hunt-me game. closest you can come up with is probably FVV and Lowry, but those are two mighty mouses.
Frank, i think your trade works if the Lakers only send 1 unprotected pick. Jazz get 3 unprotected and 2 protected. We get Donovan. Lakers get the players. Randle would be their C, to go along with AD and Lebron to form a powerful frontcourt. DRose and Clarkson are a lot better than Westbrook and Bradley.
Simply put, the Melo deal didn’t hurt Donnie Walsh in the public eye. Walsh left because he wanted Dolan to agree to not go over his head again (like in the Melo deal), but that was behind the scenes stuff mostly just discussed here. He didn’t leave because of the Melo deal “failing.” It was seen as a success at the time. In the general NBA public eye, the Melo deal was very well accepted. It was only years later that the mainstream caught up with Knickerblogger. This is very much not a risky trade for Rose, reputation-wise.
That’s probably the biggest ding on Mitchell, that he didn’t even seem to step it up for the playoffs this year.
For a trade where they wouldn’t be giving up any draft capital. The Lakers desperately don’t want to trade their draft picks.
We can’t trade any of our centers, correct? Or is Sims eligible in a way Mitch and Hartenstein would not be?
And Frank, I hear what you’re saying to a degree. But Ainge is an even tougher negotiator than Masai was, and an absurd bar was set by the Gobert deal. Donovan is younger and, in the eyes of many within and without the NBA, a better player than Rudy. Is Ainge really going to accept a lesser package for him? If not, that would be an utterly calamitous deal.
I think since the Gobert with covid debacle, that pair should have been dismantled. They opted to keep them both and the results were a disaster. No surprise there.
Alan – I think we’re on the same page here.
My only hopes are:
1) Leon Rose is a much better negotiator than Tim Connelly or Billy King. This is not a high bar.
2) every negotiation is a different story even if shaped by previous transactions. As I said in a post yesterday or the day before, I am not sure that there is that much pressure on Leon to do this deal — I think fans would be reasonably happy with keeping our powder dry, adding Brunson + Hartenstein, and letting the kids grow (although now with the trade talk I assume expectations have moved a bit). This Knicks team is YOUNG, and will get better just with time. Mitchell’s trade value declines with each passing day, especially if he (and I assume Mike Conley) formally ask to be traded. And since I don’t think Donovan is the type to go Fat Harden on the Jazz, he would just bring wins to a team that clearly doesn’t want wins right now.
I guess what I’m saying is — the reason Ainge was able to extract such a ransom from Connelly is that he had plausible fall-back that the Jazz could just run it back, maybe it was Quin Snyder’s fault, blah blah blah and so we don’t need to trade Rudy. This is no longer a plausible fall-back. And so that piece of leverage is no longer available to Ainge. So if he’s planning on trading Mitchell, who else is going to offer what the Knicks can offer? I think it was Dallas Amico on twitter who said all the Knicks have to do is beat Miami’s offer, and you have to think NYK unprotected picks are probably 3x as valuable as Miami unprotected picks — and of course Ainge and Riley absolutely hate each other also.
DISCLAIMER: I like Donovan Mitchell. Seeing what he is now in comparison to what he was in college speaks to his drive and work ethic. He’s a fantastic player.
As soon as we landed Brunson, I completely wrote off going after Mitchell. I hate tiny backcourts. But it seems like this is a real possibility, so I wonder about his defense. In college he was an upper echelon defender at guard, but he’s been getting cooked alot in the pros. They say at a smidge under 6’2″, that he has a 6’10” wingspan, so I don’t understand it. Was it his usage on offense draining him of his defensive energy? Or was it Snyder couldn’t build a better defense with him on the court?
That said, I also wonder what Thibs can do. Thibs is well regarded as a brilliant defensive mind, and he’s had top defenses with barely average defenders in the backcourt. Given that we will always have switchable rim protection on the court with Mitch/Hart/Sims, can Thibs get Donovan to give consistent effort on the perimeter. I don’t think neither he or Brunson needs to be lockdown given the strengths of our Thibs-built defense. They just need to be pests. Barrett’s pretty good on ball, though he’s probably never gonna be considered a Butler/Kawhi level defender on the wing. And I trust Obi more on defense than Randle because he doesn’t take possessions off. So, given Donovan’s recent lapses on defense- we can’t have both he and Randle on the court. I think that if Leon is gonna make this play, he can talk Ainge into taking whatever salary he wants to throw at them because we have so many picks to trade. I still hate tiny backcourts, but I’m cool with sending out Randle/Cam/Quickley/Rokas or Deuce and 4-5 1sts. Don’t know if that moves the needle, but we can’t gut the roster AND the war chest. Brunson, RJ, and Mitchell are not enough to draw in ring chasers to fill the roster- if you get what I’m sayin.
I voted no, but I think too much is being made of the small Brunson/Mitchell backcourt.
Isaiah Thomas and Joe Dumars were 6’1” and 6’3” respectively and the Pistons managed pretty well as I remember
Equating Tim Connelly with Billy King is absurd. Connelly is an excellent GM with the same occasional misfires that all longtime GMs make, especially the bold ones like Riley, Connelly and Masai.
If they were known as good defenders, like, say Pat Bev, who is also short, or Thomas and Dumars, it’d be a whole other story. They’re not. Hence the concern.
This is gonna be peak Knicksy when it’s every young player and 7 first rounders
Man that would be so disheartening.
Another longer-term question – would Leon trade his godson if it made the team better? Brunson on a declining contract is probably a good trade piece but that would be pretty cold. Well I guess not that cold since he also gave his godson $100 million. I could tolerate a lot of cold for $100MM.
The 11th pick trade was also perfect for a star trade, as the value was roughly reasonable, but for future trade purposes, it’s now “three firsts” for the purpose of a Mitchell trade.
Well Donovan and Brunson would probably be really good on O, so it would be up to Thibs to get the most out of them on D.
BTW we’d have to send out significant salary now that we’re over the cap, so doesn’t one of Julius, Fournier or Rose have to go out?
Yeah, the scuttlebutt is that it’ll be Fournier, for that very reason, as they need to send out salary, and he’ll be easier to flip later.
Its not going to be all of our young players and 7 first round picks. I trust Leon to walk away if the ask is too high.
Each of these star trades is it’s own unique situation. Who else is going after Donovan? Does Utah expect more for Mitchell since they got so much for Gobert or will they be cool with anything decent because they already got so much for Gobert. Can we give them like 5 firsts and Randle and/or Fournier and/or Rose (and maybe someone like Rokas) or are they going to insist on one of our key young players.
The Brunson Mitchell back court is not ideal but if we can have bench guards that are bigger and better defenders we can figure out a rotation that works. And Thibs is a good defensive coach. Plus it can’t be worse than Kemba and Fournier, right?
Also, keep in mind when we traded for Melo. Those talks started several months before the trade actually happened. UTah is going to shop around. But we have the advantage of being able to offer the most first round picks, which is what they’re going ot want.
Also, Brunson is not a bad defender. He’s small but he’s pretty decent especially with team defense.
Can’t trade Brunson, Mitch or Hart until December, right?
Agreed Jowles LOL.
If you’re gonna gut the roster of youth AND the war chest- you’d better be a championship contender. Like a clear cut top 2 in your conference. A core of Brunson/Mitchell/RJ/Julius doesn’t even make us a top 4 EC squad. It’s an even more awkward fit. But if we manage to pull a trade off including Randle and have a rotation of (at minimum) Mitch/Obi/RJ/Donovan/Brunson/Hart/Sims/Fournier/Grimes/Rose, it gives us a balanced enough roster to be a threat to Boston, Milwaukee, Philly, and Toronto. I’m not quite ready to put Atlanta there yet because they lost depth even though they have a nice starting 5 on paper. My hypothetical lineup would force teams to play real defense every possession and be ready to run. That gives us a chance- but we’d need to be a faster paced team. Hell..if Utah would take Randle, I’d give them 5-6 firsts if I had to
If we assume Robert Randolph knows anything, the current Knick offer is IQ, Rose, Fournier and five firsts. Very close to the trade I’m predicting, just that I think ultimately they give in on Grimes for Rose and that gets it done.
They will take Randle, Rose, Fournier and 5 late first round picks and they’ll like it. OK, fine. They can have Cam and Rokas too.
I’m just glad that at least one of IQ/Obi appears safe.
That trade wouldn’t kill me, but I don’t see Trader Danny accepting it.
Btw, we can all stop hoping the Jazz take Randle. They’re in full rebuild mode, he’s the opposite of what they’re looking for.
And how many of those firsts are ours versus ones we’ve acquired in trades?
I know it depends on other moving parts but if you have to give up Obi or IQ, who do you choose?
I assume it’s two from the Knicks and three of their acquired picks (presumably the protected Detroit, Washington and Milwaukee picks).
Essentially it’s three Knick firsts, since #11 became those three protected picks, so that a trade of three picks could now be “five firsts” for soundbite purposes.
“BTW we’d have to send out significant salary now that we’re over the cap, so doesn’t one of Julius, Fournier or Rose have to go out?”
Yeah, Donovan Mitchell makes $30M and if he’s the only player Utah sends out then we need to send back at least $24M up to $37.5M.
“Btw, we can all stop hoping the Jazz take Randle. They’re in full rebuild mode, he’s the opposite of what they’re looking for.”
I keep on wondering if there’s a way to include the Lakers and dump Randle on them. Probably not since I’m guessing they won’t do anything until the Kyrie situation is resolved.
Of Obi, Grimes, and IQ, Quickley is probably the one I’d be most comfortable moving in such a deal. He’s more duplicative of Brunson and Mitchell, and I feel like the other guys have higher ceilings. And/or that IQ can’t reach his ceiling if he’s not a point guard, and this team does not view him as one.
Though if Rose and IQ both go in the trade, is Deuce now the backup PG? I am skeptical that would happen.
Such a tough question. I guess if you’re bringing in Mitchell, then IQ makes more sense to give up?
Yeah, I am very skeptical that Ainge takes Rose in the end. I think it’ll be IQ, Grimes, Fournier and five firsts. His “win” will be getting Grimes in place of Rose.
“I miss Steve Mills.”
Let’s not get crazy.
I’ve been told Cam isn’t worthless in trades. How about Fournier, Quick, Cam, 2 unprotected NYK picks and 3 protected?
>Yeah, I am very skeptical that Ainge takes Rose in the end. I think it’ll be IQ, Grimes, Fournier and five firsts.<
Before it's over, IQ may be a better "all around" player than Mitchell all by himself. And of course, Grimes is a way better fit next to Brunson. Talk about incinerating picks.
Strat, the stats seem to indicate that Brunson is an average defender, is that true? I don’t watch the Mavs as much as you do, so your opinion is probably more accurate than mine.
Let’s do almost everything that’s significant correctly for several years and then throw it all away in one trade. The new Knicks motto.
“Strat, the stats seem to indicate that Brunson is an average defender, is that true? I don’t watch the Mavs as much as you do, so your opinion is probably more accurate than mine.”
I’m not going to criticize his defense because he works as hard on that end as he does on offense. He’s OK as PGs go even though he’s undersized. My problem is not with him or Mitchell as individuals. It’s the combination of both being undersized and RJ actually being small at the SF position. We are going to win a lot of games on talent. but imo there will be matchups (like the Celtics) where we are going to look like a bunch of kids playing against men.
Ok, that’s fair. But Thibs managed to get the 11th best defense with Fournier all year and Kemba for half the year. I think he’ll probably manage to get average defense from our future tiny backcourt.
Edit: I’m positive that neither Brunson, nor Donovan, can be as bad as Fournier.
but imo there will be matchups (like the Celtics)
then don’t trade Fournier. Problem solved.
Fournier the Celtic slayer, LOL.
Hahaha. The Celtics killer.
Thibs: “Evan, you have just one task this season, just be ready for those 4 games” LOL
So are we in the Bargaining stage of Knicks grief? Or is this still denial?
Knick grief is different. It’s acceptance, but still complaining about it even though you’ve accepted it.
I’m assuming a lot of the yes votes are coming from lurkers, based on the tenor of the discussion so far.
definitely the bargaining stage LOL.
I’m trying to comfort myself with several thoughts.
1. Mitchell is better than Melo. But honestly, I think that’s debatable. They’re basically the same caliber of player. Good all-stars that can get you to the playoffs. Mitchell has had Gobert his whole career but Melo did have Camby, KMart, Billups, etc..on his nuggets team that went to the WCF. So I don’t know. But Mitchell is younger than Melo was when we traded for him.
2. We do not have a max player like Amare on our team. Yeah Brunson and Mitchell might be redundant or problematic defensively because of their size. But Stat was 29 years old when we signed him and his knees were dust. He basically gave us nothing after his first season.
3. Unless Leon goes crazy, we should have more assets left after a Mitchell trade to still make moves. Donnie had already traded away some first rounders to clear cap for 2010 free agency. Once we traded for Melo we had no young players left except Shump and Fields and only one first rounder (that we later traded for Bargs). Right now we have 11 first rounders in our arsenal over the next 7 years and still a lot of second rounders too. We could trade four or five first rounders and still be able to draft players over the next few years. This doesn’t have to be the final iteration of our team, unlike the post Melo trade where we did not have a lot of moves left on the table.
4. We have a front office in place that has done well finding talent later in the draft.
5. We have a defense first coach. Say waht you want about Thibs, he can bring out the best defensively in teams.
I’m still in denial. I’m just as suer a trade won’t happen as I was that Hillary would beat The Fascist.
>Edit: I’m positive that neither Brunson, nor Donovan, can be as bad as Fournier.<
I won't argue with that. 🙂
Everyone knows my preference. IMO you should build a team with the goal of creating a top defense and occasionally accept a weaker defender if he's an elite offensive player or fills an important need. IMO we are going to overpay for Mitchell and create a Knicks team that's going to struggle on defense. We are also going to use all our excess assets in the process.
I'm fairly high on our young players and patient enough to wait out their development. IMO, we need an upper tier two way SF or upper tier two way stretch PF, not an undersized SG. IMO, we should wait for the "fat" pitch. There are going to be more pitches. There are every year. In the mean time I think we could get some surprise developments from the young players we already have over the next couple of years, maybe even this year.
Cyber, I’ve mostly been in agreement with things you say until you landed on Donovan Island. I am harshly, violently against this trade. The main reason I turn on the TV is to watch IQ and Obi. I don’t see any trade that doesn’t make us a worse team (and an infinitely less fun team) in the short term AND the long term. I’m sure a lot of starz will want to come play with him because who wouldn’t want to play with a super-high usage dwarf shooter who doesn’t play D and who has already proven he can’t get along with his co-star on the team?
It doesn’t really make any sense straight up for Randle, and I would love to see Randle with a new address (and for many reasons already stated this won’t happen).
Just a bad, bad idea on every front imaginable. I can’t even make up a facile, foolish Team Optimism position. Sure trade for a star, but not a tiny, cranky gunner at one of the two positions we actually are set at. And not in the hopes of going from 45 wins to 48 wins while playing a vastly less enjoyable roster and (dare I say it) incinerating our future. So I’m really surprised by your take (and the take of 21 people along with you).
>but imo there will be matchups (like the Celtics)
then don’t trade Fournier. Problem solved.<
You are keeping me from drinking early today. 🙂
I’m reduced to hoping Thibs talks them out of it because he loves Quick and Grimes.
If Rose was included, he would probably get bought out. What’s the rule on coming back to NY?
To be fair, Cyber, the only reason they didn’t get eliminated in rd 1 is Donovan’s terrible defense.
According to RAPTOR, which is nice because it allows you to see playoff & regular season numbers, Luka played very good defense (3.2) in the playoffs. On the other hand, Donovan was horrendous (-4.5).
Maybe ptmilo is right and Mitchell dogged it this year, he seemed pretty unhappy with Utah. He was stellar the previous 2 years in the playoffs and below average to passably bad on defense.
And the people making the argument that’s it’s possibly better than what was the single worst debacle in the last 20 years (the Melo trade) is really just indefensible.
The only thing keeping me from tearing my hair out is knowing that Jowles is probably laughing at my indignation.
We gotta get Randle off this team. We are going to roll out 4 ball dominant guys and Mitch? It doesn’t make a lot of sense
Getting Mitchell wouldn’t be all bad…. brunson plus mitchell plus RJ plus robinson… is a pretty young core that has some upside…. it’s still missing something which is why keeping the 2023 first is so important but also why this doesn’t have a chance to work out since it’s as good as gone in that deal….
I don’t think there are many suitors for Mitchell… which is why Shams leaked the news… and why it’s best to just stand pat and force them to start the season with him…. Mitchell is either going to be disgruntled or the Jazz is gonna win too many games in which case the asking price will go down as time goes on….
making this deal now is not the move….
Is Mitchell the grumpy one though? And not Gobert?
Are we giving Gober the benefit of the doubt because he’s the elite defensive guy and Mitchell is the scorer?
I mean, Gobert started covid for christ’s sake! Maybe he’s the jerk?
I don’t know. I’m grasping here. I agree, Deefense. I’d rather us wait for a better fit star player to come along because it is the nature of the NBA that these stars want to move every year now.
No way we trade Randle. He’s the third leg of our Big (Disappointment) 3.
Melo was traded february 22nd 2011.
That day (and for the rest of the season) he was 26 year old.
When he came to the Knicks he was a 4 times All-NBA (3rd team in 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2008-2009 plus 2nd team in 2009-2010, when he went 6th in MVP voting, he was top-15 in MVP 3 other times and he was All-Rookie in 2003-2004).
Mitchell will play his first game of the year in october 2022, when he’ll be… surprise! 26 year old…
Donovan Mitchell has never been an All-NBA (he was All-Rookie in 2017-2018) and according to his BB-Ref page he never got a single vote for MVP.
Carmelo Anthony was perceived at the time, in NBA’s players and media circles, as a far better player than Mitchell is today (it’s true that metrics are more sophisticated now and many fans are “smarter”).
I HATED the Melo trade and was very vocal against it at the time (and today),
but no matter if one is Pro-Trade or Against-Trade, facts are facts.
I was wrong, he was 27 years old, so one of my facts is a fake news 🙂
The other things are real.
P.S. I need to change my glasses or stop using my phone to chat…
Max, nobody is saying that Melo wasn’t much, much better than Mitchell is now (my new name for him just to spite Cyber).
But that’s actually my point. A bad trade, even for a superstar way better than Mitchell, can sink a team.
I totally agree Raven, I wasn’t answering to you, we’re making the same point 🙂
I’m fresh from a 3 weeks fight with Covid so I’m a bit confused and I miss the “quote” button a lot 🙂
Why is everyone assuming that- for as good of a trade record that Ainge has- that he’s gonna fleece us the same way he fleeced a desperate T-Wolves that didn’t have the same quality of assets they were willing to trade as we have? If Ainge is rebuilding and Donovan doesn’t wanna stick around for it, we have more leverage than most believe
Maybe we can find a 3rd team that wants Randle and is willing to give up some contracts that Ainge wouldn’t mind having as the filler. If Randle becomes part of it, we don’t have to worry about what we are getting back. We just have to worry about Ainge. He seems more interested in picks. He can buy out a couple of vet contracts or tank with them for a year as long as he gets his picks.
Yeah I think Melo’s rep took such a hit during the second part of his Knicks tenure that we now underrate how good he was when we traded for him.
Obviously he wasn’t Lebron or Durant but he was a top 10 player. He also rebounded very well, which is why he was able to slide over to a small ball PF so easily.
Melo led a team that went to the WCF took the eventual NBA champs to 6 games. I guess you could argue that Nuggets team had a better overall supporting cast than these Jazz teams but I don’t think Melo had one single player on those teams as good as Gobert is.
I actually think Mitchell is a step below what Melo was at the time.
Why is everyone assuming that- for as good of a trade record that Ainge has- that he’s gonna fleece us the same way he fleeced a desperate T-Wolves that didn’t have the same quality of assets they were willing to trade as we have? If Ainge is rebuilding and Donovan doesn’t wanna stick around for it, we have more leverage than most believe.
This is a good point. When a big trade happens and a team gives up a ton of first round picks, people then think this is the new bar that every star trade has to clear in order to happen. But every situation is different. With both Gobert and Mitchell, Utah had more leverage with Minny. But with Gobert gone, it’s now a different situation for Utah. Mitchell has more leverage too.
Mitchell is an exciting player who can score 50 anytime, while Ja scores 52 and Clarke gets 10 put-backs due to blown coverages.
But exciting losses so there’s that! Bing bong!
(Glad you’re recovering, Max, and sorry this is where you’ve landed.)
Alan, The reception isn’t great up here, did you ask if we were in the Bargnaniing stage of Knicks grief?
Z-Man, I thought VERY hard about spelling it that way. And then decided today is going to be painful enough.
Also, Robert Randolph turning into a key Knicks insider was a plot twist I never would have predicted.
When the news first broke that one of the Big Dawgz at CAA would be taking over as the NYK POBO, many Knicks fans felt just like Phil Connors waking up to Sonny & Cher on the clock radio.
So, yeah, few of us can truthfully say that we could not have seen this coming. Most of us have long feared that this day would eventually arrive because it has always arrived and has always arrived and has always arrived…
This fucking team, man.
@Alan, if I have to bathe in this Egyptian river any longer I’m going to start growing gills
I don’t love it but I’m more in the middle here than most seem to be (although the poll indicates there’s a silent pro-Mitchell contingent). Possibly it’s because I’ve been certain this was coming from the moment I saw the Gobert news so I’ve had more time to come around to acceptance, but some thoughts:
1. I definitely think too much is being made of the fit issue with Brunson. It’s a potentially a big problem in some playoff matchups where teams are relentless about exploiting your weaknesses, but on a night-to-night basis in the regular season the offensive advantage of two dynamic play-making guards is >>>> than the defensive disadvantage. It’s potentially a very potent offensive team although a lot will depend on avoiding Randle eating up a ton of possessions with inefficient garbage; ideally by sending him elsewhere but otherwise by changing his style significantly.
2. The “fit” issue is also overblown because this clearly isn’t the endpoint. Donovan isn’t good enough to be the best player on a great team, but he can be the best player on a very good team that transitions to being the 2nd best player on a great team cleanly. Part of what I hated about the Melo trade was I didn’t think he was good enough to be the best guy and I hated his fit as a 2nd best guy. I have less qualms about Donovan in that role; if you get prime Lebron somehow he can be the Kyrie no doubt, particularly if you can get him to defend more with less offensive responsibility/on a team he wants to be on.
3. That’s why it’s critical that we not get eaten alive by Ainge here. If we put in everything and are left with this team and little flexibility that would be bad. If we maintain a solid arsenal of picks and young players while having a team that’s capable of winning 50+ and getting to the 2nd round led by a young star (a NY kid no less) who wants to be here…it could work.
lol dude if you don’t see what’s coming, it’s on you
Yeah, I’m way less concerned about a melo-ish outcome here. Could happen but I think we will have a young-ish team with two really exciting guards. I still think Brunson is going to make everyone else better, including Spida. But this is definitely not the way I would go, and it would not surprise me at all if nothing happens because Ainge wants too much and Leon draws a reasonable line in the sand.
Jowles, may I say that it feels kind of great to finally share your level of fatalism about this franchise?
Raven, i’m still the same Cyber. If i was running the Knicks, i’d pivot to youth and send DRose, Fournier and Randle packing. But we’re not going to do that. We’re having another season of Fournier and Randle (i can stand DRose in his role off the bench). Well, Donovan immediately solves Fournier, he has to go if Donovan comes. And then DRed is on point, we can’t have 4 ball handlers, so who’s the weakest link? It’s Randle, so he has to go too, for us to be able to get a stretch 4 that is good at defense. What stings is the picks, but if we send as many as it’s being said, then we only send one of Quick, Grimes and Obi. Quick is my choice because we need Grimes and Obi to balance the team.
Also if you knew the story of my team here (FCPorto) you’d know that i highly value the local talent, the one’s that feel the jersey more than anybody else. We’ve built great success here based on that, so i’m hoping the Knicks can do the same.
fuck James Dolan (although this time, it might not be his fault)
Leon doesn’t care about draft picks — all of the draft picks are gone
I am not bullish on any of the Knicks’ young players but giving up the prospect of having any new homegrown talent for 3-5 years is pretty ugly
45-win ceiling for half a decade isn’t where I wanna be
I am honestly not sure how to vote because as everyone knows I think Leon Rose’s strategy is uncreative and bad. This would obviously be an enormous part of that strategy. We should’ve seized the opportunity to rebuild through the draft when we had the chance, etc etc etc.
If we really must accept that we’re not doing that, then I have to look at the realistic alternative to trading for Mitchell. To me, that looks like a lot more seasons like the 2021-2022 season. Maybe with Brunson we’re a little better and win 43 games instead of 37, but we’re not more than a play-in/low seeded playoff team regardless.
That gets me to the idea that that’s okay because we can simply wait to make our big move. Well, one of my many problems with this whole “plan” is I think that’s quite frankly a ridiculous assumption.
Our trade assets are more likely to depreciate in value than appreciate. It’s not hard to figure out that Quentin Grimes making $3M AAV is a more attractive trade chip than Quentin Grimes making $18M AAV, for example. Plus teams tend to prefer to make their own picks and the longer we wait the more likely it is we have to either make some of the picks we have or incinerate them. Even if our young players don’t get paid before the trade, they lose precious years on their rookie-scale deals. We might be 1.5 years away from RJ being viewed as a neutral asset at best on a $25M+ AAV deal, a la De’Aaron Fox.
We also have no idea who will hit the trade market in the next three years or so. *Someone* regarded as a “star” probably will, sure, but will they be better than Mitchell? Will they fit our timeline as well as he does? Is there any reason to think they’ll come cheaper?
So yeah, this trade would be bad because the whole strategy is bad. We took our fate completely out of our own hands. I just see no reason to think the opportunities will only get better if we keep following this strategy, and they very easily could get worse.
Melo was better than Spida by quite a bit; let’s not kid ourselves or get all pissy at Phil Jackson and lose our brains.
IF this is just the three shitty protected firsts and IF it’s just Grimes and one of Obi/IQ and IF it’s just two unprotected Knick firsts, I would begrudgingly be ok with giving it a shot. (While at the same time thinking, as always, that they just should have punted the covid season and definitely exercised the 32, 18, and 11 picks they pissed away and that would have been higher anyway if they’d just played things right.)
But I don’t see any reason to think Ainge is going to be fooled by the “three [shitty protected] firsts.” He knows damn well they’re shitty protected firsts and not real firsts. It’s going to wind up being three real unprotected firsts. And the shitty protected firsts cost a real lottery pick, so the accounting when the dust settles is not going to look that great, IMO.
You guys are smarter than this. Amare was on a contract no team wanted, and Melo was exactly like Donovan, i’ll give you that. Brunson is not immovable, so if the pair doesn’t work we can trade one of the two and still give it another go. We definitely couldn’t do this when the Amare/Melo pairing turned out well below the expectations.
… most likely it’s going to be five firsts where the Jazz get to in some fashion pick the best one among the Knicks’ and the shitty protected firsts. And then the Leon shills will say, “Cheer up mate, it’s not so bad, we still have most of our firsts.”
There are some people Leon Rose should not be allowed to talk to. Danny Ainge is one of them.
Rose is eager and Ainge holds all the cards. We are staring down the barrel of a loaded cannon right now and people are arguing about whether or not it would be good to light the fuse.
I’ve flip flopped on Mitchell. Yesterday I was a no. Today I voted yes. Part of the reason is that a big trade is inevitable and this one is on the lower end of the risk scale. By low risk, I mean that what he brings is known without a lot of variability (think McDyess (will he recover), Marbury (will he become toxic), Bargs (will he give a shit)). In that sense Melo was the same. But the fact that Mitchell is nowhere near the talent or star level of 2011 Melo is why I trust Leon to not gut the team (or Dolan to interfere).
***Alan *”And I voted no. Melo Trade 2.0 all the way.”***
I mean, even the poll results are the exact same…
Why does Ainge hold all the cards?
We have all the picks, a ton of young players and just signed a big upgrade at PG. Utah just traded their best player and is in full rebuild mode. Mitchell will want out and the longer he stays (and Utah isn’t as good) the more disgruntled he will be. What other team has the picks that we have to trade?
Rose should theoretically be able to create some leverage. As best I can tell we were fully planning on trotting out this team without Mitchell, it would be awkward for the Jazz to bring him back after this, and the market for Mitchell doesn’t seem to be booming.
Our offer should be exactly one asset better than the runner up and not an inch better than that. I guess the primary competitor is Miami, who can offer three of their own firsts if they can get OKC to unprotect their 2025 pick, Herro, Jovic, and Robinson as salary.
What’s our offer that beats that, but not by too much?
Side note: I think we should view it as something of an indictment on Mitchell as a player that OKC could easily win these sweepstakes if they wanted to, but don’t view Mitchell as good enough to deviate from their plan.
@Raven preaching the truth above.
Randle, RJ, Brunson, Donovan, and Mitch, all bumping into each other in the paint every game is going to crush me.
The gravitational death-star-prediction-pull of Jowles may simply be too much for our little ship.
Hello there, Bernie. Donovan Mitchell island welcomes you. 😀
Note: I see someone on a boat between the island and the shore, it must be Noble. ;D
right when i was starting to look forward to this season… knicks gonna knicks i guess.
This is GOT last season level bad.
And it feels inevitable. This is like the definition of Knicksy.
Nobody is gonna push back on this Melo was better than Mitchell narrative? Compare the age 24 and 25 seasons for Melo with Mitchell. What was he better at? Rebounding. That’s it. Mitchell is better at pretty much everything else offensively, and lets not pretend Melo was at all a competent defender. Anyways, giving up everything for Melo is dumb, and it’d be dumb for Mitchell, but let’s not pretend one made more sense than the other.
They have Giddey (19) and Shai (24), why would they want Donovan?
Melo was more efficient relative to the league at the time than Donovan is now though
Melo was just barely more efficient before coming over. Plus Donovan actually passes the ball.
Still do not want him. Maybe could be convinced for the right package. The right package eing one that still enables us to trade for an actual superstar down the road. I’d still be skeptical it’s possible to cover Mitchell’s defense.
“Melo was more efficient relative to the league at the time than Donovan is now though”
Nah, they both were pretty much right at the average:
Melo TS% .532/.548 vs league average .544/.543
Mitchell TS% .569/.573 vs league average .572/.566
NY Times, 27 October 2006:
“Marbury-Francis Pairing May Decide Knicks Season”
“The motion-oriented offense, (Isiah) Thomas has reasoned, would eliminate any concerns about how two scoring point guards would share the ball. It is tougher, however, to dismiss the concerns on defense. Marbury is listed at 6 feet 2 inches, Francis at 6-3. One of them will have to defend shooting guards, most of whom stand between 6-5 and 6-8. ‘That will be the test,’ Thomas acknowledged recently…It was (Larry) Brown who pushed the team to acquire Francis. Brown suggested then, with great enthusiasm, that Marbury and Francis could be a modern-day version of the Knicks’ renowned backcourt of Walt Frazier and Earl Monroe….” (and so it goes).
I don’t care at all if Melo had all-NBA honors or all star games before the trade, because those are mainly reputation based and the league was very different in the early 2000s when he was drafted. Melo was a massively hyped prospect, national champion at Syracuse, 3rd pick in one of the strongest drafts ever and came into the league as the perfect narrative counter to LeBron James, the most hyped prospect ever. If you put Mitchell in the same position with his numbers in the 2000s he would also be all-NBA multiple times and get MVP votes.
He’s a flawed player, but he’s just as flawed as Melo was at the time, and it would be a mistake to trade a massive package for him as it was to do it for Melo at the time.
I’ll still maintain my position: if the trade is cheap enough, do it, and by that I mean something like RJ + Fournier or Randle + a young player + at max 3 1st rounders. Don’t do it for anything more than this, and just let it go. I don’t even think Donovan Mitchell is really worth the cheap package I made up, but since the trade seems to be inevitable, at least I hope it’s closer to this than a billion 1sts plus players.
“Nah, they both were pretty much right at the average:
Melo TS% .532/.548 vs league average .544/.543
Mitchell TS% .569/.573 vs league average .572/.566”
Efficient was the wrong word, but Melo’s volume scoring was more impressive in 2011 than Donovans is now. For reference, 12 players in 2011 scored 20 ppg, with Melo coming in at number 6. In 2022, 27 players hit that threshhold, with Donovan coming it at 9th. Just to be clear, I’m not trying to argue that one is necessarily better or worse than the other in a vacuum but more that Melo’s scoring was more impressive at the time than Spida’s should be today.
I would have some solace if the Knicks were effectively selling high on RJ for a trade like this. But obviously they want to keep him instead and ship the cheaper, younger and better players they have.
God, I remember that trade so well. I was not a huge basketball fan at the time, but my godfather bought tickets for me, my dad, and himself soon after. It was perhaps my first unfortunate step on the pathway into the hopeless blackhole known as Knicks fandom.
If I had a time machine, I’d stop myself from going to that game.
I like this trade more than the Melo trade because: (1) we should still have young pieces and draft picks left (emphasis on should), and (2) unlike Melo we can’t sign Donovan this offseason.
Still not a good move, but perhaps better than the Melo move.
I voted NO as well, but it’s conditional on what the deal actually is. I’d like the Knicks to keep Grimes out of it, but from what I’ve read, Utah seems to covet him. Maybe the Knicks can convince Ainge to take DRose instead b/c he can be flipped later for another pick? Probably not…
I think Mitchell is a very good player, but not a great one unless he rededicates himself to playing D . If the trade does go down, I hope Rose has some sort of side deal for Randle (or RJ, but I’d prefer Randle go), otherwise the starting lineup would be very talented but the fit would not likely be good, and could even be awful.
There has to be a trade where we get Mitchell without an unmovably low ceiling. His contract is not so onerous that he cannot be redealt to a team that he can push over the top. If we still have sufficient remaining assets to push up, it might be worth a swing. I am willing to give Leon a chance to see how he negotiates.
Report from a Utah beat writer: https://mobile.twitter.com/andyblarsen/status/1547610724733636608
Says 4 teams are in talks. Utah wants more picks and/or Grimes from NYK; more picks and Strus from Miami; OKC and Toronto aren’t close, OKC’s picks have no upside.
There are certain things that are inherent to Leon Rose’s “plan”:
1) We are going to trade for someone regarded as a star
2) Because we refuse to avail ourselves of the high-level assets that come with high picks/the players you draft with them, we are going to have to trade a lot in terms of volume to do that
3) Because we refuse to avail ourselves of high picks, we almost certainly will be making this trade before we have another player regarded as a star already on the roster
I will repeat that I think this is an unwise way to try to build a team. This is an oversimplification but as a general rule it’s a bad idea to make a big trade for a star before you have one of your own.
However I’ve been told a million times I need to just accept that this is the plan and stop griping about it, so when you accept that the aforementioned three things are true, and they are, it’s hard to get too mad about a Mitchell trade. I mean, is this not what I’ve been told the plan is?
Depends on your opinion of Donovan. If you think he can regain his college defensive potential, sure he’s a star.
If you look at the most recent playoffs, he was unplayable.
If you take away the multi-year running DPOY, does DMitch look like a star? I’m skeptical.
It’s not about trading for a star, it’s a about trading for the right star.
“There has to be a trade where we get Mitchell without an unmovably low ceiling.”
I don’t see it. Bear in mind that is were not trading RJ in this deal we’re pretty much guaranteed to extend him so that would be another ~$30M in salary every year.
Whether Mitchell is better than Anthony or not is kind of moot. The fact is, neither is/was a true superstar from a production standpoint. Anthony was, at least, a superstar from a PR standpoint, so it made a lot of business sense. This trade would be much more basketball-driven, it seems, because there’s just no equating the two from a marketability standpoint. A few first round exits in Utah simply doesn’t build the same cache as an NCAA title, two olympic tours, 4 all-nba teams, and a trip to the WCF.
He’s referencing a Bobby Mark’s article, anyone with insider who can give us context for what the insufficient offer was?
here is one of the 4 proposed trades on espn+ (this is the knicks package)
New York receives:
Knicks’ 2023, 2025 and 2027 first-round picks
Mavericks’ 2023 pick (top-10 protected)
Wizards’ 2023 pick (top-14 protected)
I think Mitchell is better now than Melo was when we traded for him. Melo went on to have his best seasons for us and his 2012-2013/2013-2014 seasons may have been better than anything Mitchell has done so far, but it’s not crazy to think the best is yet to come for Mitchell too.
Mitchell has also produced in the playoffs at a level Melo never came close to in either Denver or New York, for what that’s worth.
Mitchell being 6’1″ really does complicate his fit here and I’d feel way better about all of this if we were trading for a similar quality player who was a wing, or at least wing sized.
The thing is I just don’t see such a trade on the horizon. We’re probably 3 years out from the Luka grumblings, if they ever occur. Tatum isn’t going anywhere. Booker just signed his max and seems to like Phoenix. I think OKC is going to get competitive fairly quickly and keep SGA in the fold.
You’re right. It’s a bad plan, and it’s unlikely to work. Within that context, Leon has to consider dodging the morality issue and making the kind of aggressive move that Checketts and Grunfeld made when they acquired Sprewell.
Trading Randle to Charlotte for Bridges, and then signing Bridges to an extremely team-friendly deal, gives him the kind of impossible return on an asset that he needs to make his plan work.
Bridges then makes Obi superfluous. Now you can package Obi, IQ, Grimes, and picks to get a real star. If you land the right star and surround him with Brunson, Barrett, Bridges, and Mitch… well now you’ve got a team.
It’s going to take something extreme like that to make his plan work. He’s certainly not going to get there making trades with Danny Ainge.
here is a bobby marks proposed trade
Phoenix picks in 2023, 2025, 2027 and 2029
Phoenix swaps in 2024, 2026 and 2028
Also, it’s absolutely brutal that Julius Randle decided to obliterate all his trade value right before this happened.
I’d hate to include Obi in this deal because I think a Mitchell/Obi pairing is one of the few things that would be somewhat sensible on our roster after this trade.
Mitchell is a pretty damn good ball handler in the pick and roll–he was 4th in the NBA in PnR possessions per game and 14th in PPP (filtering out guys who barely play).
But if Randle is going to be here…I don’t know how or why we wouldn’t include Obi in the trade. The Brunson/Mitchell/Barrett/Randle fit is such a mess I wouldn’t be surprised if our win total is a less than the sum of its parts situation.
Because he believes he does.
This seems like a fair deal (more than I’d pay, but likely what an NBA team would pay). It’s insane if Utah asks for more than this, which the beat writer was saying.
Acquiring Mitchell is the worst possible way to win 44 games
@TNFH **The Brunson/Mitchell/Barrett/Randle fit is such a mess I wouldn’t be surprised if our win total is a less than the sum of its parts situation.”**
Exactly. Someone must be shouting this in the Knicks front office, no? I mean if WE see it …?
Breaking news reporter Robert Randolph really feeling his oats:
Randle has to be included in the trade and I could see Ainge actually wanting him more than Fournier since he could play Randle, up his value, and flip him for even more picks.
Randle doesn’t make sense on this team with RJ and Brunson, he makes even less sense with RJ, Brunson, and Mitchell.
We need to do whatever we can to keep our youth and move Randle and Rose. They do not fit with Mitchell and Utah mainly wants picks anyway so I think they will undervalue our young guys in the trade.
4/5 picks+Randle+Rose is the very top of what I would offer. If that doesn’t get it done walk away.
I was going to say yesterday. If we get Mitchell for my preferred limit price, 4 picks. We should try to grab KD too.
If we get KD it’s worth the cost.
Well, it’ll be hard to top that trade, and we shouldn’t try to.
Hahaha, thanks Alan, i think i’m going to bet in the european lottery now. I said the same Randle+RJ for KD at the beginning of the thread.
“Breaking news reporter Robert Randolph really feeling his oats:
just heard.from BIG source If the Knicks get Mitchell for Fournier,Quickley, and 4-1st.
KD to Knicks will be acquired in a 3-4 team deal for Randle, RJ.”
Lol, dude talks all the time but has he ever actually given accurate news?
This is not complicated.
The goal was to change the culture of the team and make it more appealing to top players using all options to improve.
We drafted some young talent, added some place holder mentors, accumulated a surplus of 1st and 2nd round picks, managed cap space well enough to retain some cap flexibility without exhausting critical assets, landed our top target PG in free agency, have an all star caliber player more than willing to come to NY, and have more than enough assets to shut out any other team that wants him. It’s hard to execute a plan any better.
NO MANAGEMENT ON EARTH IS PERFECT.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PLAN. THE PLAN WAS EXECUTED ALMOST TO PERFECTION.
IT’S ABOUT THE PRICE AND FIT.
If we do trade for Mitchell, we will have a very good team, still have plenty of upside with the remining young players including Mitchell who is young (RJ, Mitch, Hart, and Sims aren’t going anywhere and we’ll probably keep at least 1-2 others), our 1st round picks will not be totally exhausted, and LOTS of players are going to want to play here. Randle’s contract will start looking a lot better if he plays little better this year (he will) and even better when the new TV deal comes in. This won’t be the last move. It will be one in a series of moves that have already totally transformed the team from the laughing stock of the NBA into a young quality team and destination for stars.
Debate the merits of the deal. The plan obviously worked great.
Mitchell isnt 6ft 1… he’s about 6ft 3 in shoes when he was drafted… likely slightly bigger now… the measurements floating out there is his height without shoes which circulated around when NBA teams had a fad of showing no-shoe measurements….
he does have a large wingspan with a standing reach that makes him effectively much bigger.. his steal/block rates are really good for his position…. his size is generally not why he’s seen as a bad defender….
Who is Robert Randolph? (Google doesn’t even seem to know the answer, unless he’s some pedal-steel guitar player who played at an NBA All-Star weekend once)
That’s exactly who he is. But for Knicks fans he’s more known, and cussed out, for making the Friday Night Knicks song.
Undoubtedly he got said gig by being Dolan’s guitar buddy. I wouldn’t write him off immediately as a source, however unconventional.
That’s who he is, Donnie. He also wrote that blues song that plays on MSG whenever the Knicks have a Friday night game. He claims to have predicted every move of this offseason well in advance.
“The plan obviously worked great.”
I’m a Knicks fan who started rooting for the team in the 2000s. If there’s anyone who knows just how low the expectations are around here, it’s me.
Having said that, I still think it’s reasonable to ask that we keep the champagne on ice and keep the Mission Accomplished banner wrapped up until we win one (1) playoff series.
Is that fair?
It’s too bad Robert Randolph is such a clown on Twitter because the Friday night Knicks anthem is iconic
Reading this thread sounds like the passengers on the Titanic if it occurred in the social media age…
Aha. (I guess by not watching Knick games, regardless of the day of the week, I was denied knowledge of Robert Randolph and his pedal-steel). (And, btw, that video linked by EB is classic. He sings “Friday night Knicks on MSG gotta front row seat gotta get there”, while the video is Austin Rivers playing in a completely empty arena. I guess Randolph didn’t get there by train or by bus, alas.)
I’m just glad you now seem properly alarmed, Z-Man.
@z-man, To quote 21st century philosopher, Mike Woodson, “that’s a big part of what we do here.”
Well, Ayton will not be part of any Durant deal. (Even if Phoenix matches, they can’t trade him for a while.) And now the Suns also can’t do a sign-and-trade with Indiana. (Which almost might have been to the Pacers benefit, as now they have to find a way to get Turner off the team.)
At least everyone on the Titanic knew the ship was sinking.
I doubt anyone was like “Guys, the plan was to leave England on a boat and go somewhere. We’ve gone from Southampton, England to the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean. THE PLAN WAS EXECUTED PERFECTLY”
Wow, Indy offers the max to Ayton. Good move maybe?
If the Suns let Ayton walk for nothing that’ll be one of the worst moves of the past 5+ years.
I mean my god, I can’t even wrap my mind around it. You were in the damn finals two seasons ago and just had the best record in the NBA. Ayton helps immensely with both winning now and having a post-CP3 future.
And our offer is again the best offer on the table. 🙂
Haliburton, Mathurin, Duarte, Jalen Smith, and Ayton sounds like a pretty damn good lineup. Plus, they can still trade Myles Turner for something.
EDIT: except Turner might go out in a sign-and-trade
ess-dog, they can’t do a sign-and-trade now. Ayton signed the offer sheet. Phoenix has only two options now: let him walk for nothing, or match it, and then the earliest he can be traded is January 15, and not to the Pacers. (Woj also suggests Ayton would have veto power after Jan 15; unclear if this is specific to the contract language or just something in the CBA regarding the first season after an offer sheet.)
***I doubt anyone was like “Guys, the plan was to leave England on a boat and go somewhere. We’ve gone from Southampton, England to the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean. THE PLAN WAS EXECUTED PERFECTLY”***
(Billy Zane may have said something to that effect, right before pushing a mother out of the way and jumping into the last lifeboat)
feel like the overall zeitgeist here is a bit too negative. i don’t think the current roster complements him well, but there are fewer trade offs on both ends in a mitchell/brunson pairing than melo/amar’e. my biggest concern with mitchell is mostly how painful it was to watch him take critical plays off on defense in the playoffs — and not just this year . he is like 30x the natural defender that booker, lavine or beal are but you rarely see those guys go full matador in the playoffs (reg season, sure, especially beal) as blatantly as donovan has. room to hope for a minor miracle, at least.
i’m still not violently against. depends on the deal.
can’t remember anyone ever announcing an offer sheet deal without yet signing the offer sheet. i guess they though phx didn’t believe them?
If we’re wedded to nautical analogies, I’d make this more like The North Water (*), where ownership and senior management agree ahead of time to intentionally turf the ship into an iceberg for the insurance money.
That plan, too, was executed perfectly.
(*) Great novel, great BBC mini-series.
I really like Ayton. He didn’t get many chances to show it in PHX, but the PPP on his post-ups are pretty good.
Actually, I take back what I said before re: Phoenix’s options. Per Bobby Marks, they still have a few hours to not totally screw this up:
feel like the overall zeitgeist here is a bit too negative.
But just today, right? LOL….
Bizarrely, SNY claims the Knick offer earlier this week was three firsts and Mitch in a sign and trade. That’s muuuuuuch different, right? How odd.
Mitch since signed his deal, so can’t be traded this offseason.
I’m very back and forth about this possible trade but the only thing I’ll say is this trade would in no way come close to the Melo trade. After they traded for Melo the only young assets remaining were Fields and TD followed that summer by drafting Shump. That’s it.
They can trade Obi, IQ and Grimes and you’ll still have Mitch and most importantly RJ. Not to mention Brunson. Shit even Randle isn’t exactly ancient. The cupboard after the Melo trade was basically empty but that won’t exactly be the case this time around. Not saying its a better trade or anything but I don’t think calling this possible trade Melo 2.0 is fair either.
Plus, we should still have some if not all of our protected picks leftover, so we can still draft young talent after this trade.
Lol Mitchell, Barrett, and Randle we’re all top ten in “field goals missed” last year. I guess efficiency won’t be our thing.
MItch might score a lot of points on put backs LOL.
@swift. LOL. And should we call those “reboundzzzz”?
If a Mitchell trade does lead to Randle leaving then, well, I will revise my opinion about a Mitchell trade (which is already in the “whatever” stages, so not much more room to go up!).
For me is about getting out of Barrett. He is going to get a max extension while still being a project, and he does not project well. If trading RJ lowers the pick requirements, then the trade would be fine. But 5 picks, including 3 of our own is too much. The team has upside, but also could implode (as seen with Randle).
I voted yes for the trade, contingent on the trade being “market value” (my guess: 5 ish firsts, two of which are unprotected, plus Fournier/Rose and one of IQ/Grimes/Obi)
I think the backcourt concerns are a bit overstated. I’m fairly confident that Donovan’s usage will drop if he comes to the Knicks, since we have more high usage players than the Jazz did. If his usage drops, then it isn’t totally out of the realm of possibility that he plays defense again, especially with the help of some Thibs Magic™?. Also, we will have two excellent pnr ball handlers to feed Mitch. This will also have salutary effects on Randle—he will be the tertiary or quaternary ball handler he was always meant to be, and our pace will probably get much faster. And it will leave us with plus passing at four different positions, which is pretty good. This will also lower his usage which will hopefully have some positive knock on effects on his shot selection and defense. There’s a lot of squinting to be done here, but we basically locked into this sort of strategy when we didn’t trade Randle and do a full tear down. If we get a bit lucky and price in a bit of unlikely but not impossible improvement from our starting 5, I think we can challenge the upper echelons of the East. Also, if there’s a chance you get KD from doing this, that’s gravy.
I think the defense is a real worry and we need RJ to be a consistent shooter (plus we probably need to be firm on keeping Grimes…), but it’s not obviously a disaster in the way the board is representing it to be. Amar’e Melo was far more duplicative of a deal, and Amar’e was infinitely less healthy and infinitely worse on defense than any of the concerned parties in this trade.
I dont see the rush to make any move now and feels like we would be bidding against ourselves considering some of the packages.
Let a disgruntled Donovan play a season without Gobert covering the entire defense and I bet his value will be lower than it is now.
this feels so like the Melo deal down to us basically bidding against nobody else
Julius & RJ 28 USG%
Brunson 21 USG%
D-Mitch 31 USG%
If they all stick to their good shots and cut out their bad shots this could really be something!
It’s going to be hilarious when we trade young players like IQ and Obi plus a ton of draft picks for Donovan Mitchell, and Thibs doesn’t play him because of his defense.
Julius & RJ 28 USG%
Brunson 21 USG%
D-Mitch 31 USG%
The lack of Twitter chatter about this makes me think that this thing is going to be announced in like ten minutes
That’s an awesome bit. So good that I just tweeted it. 🙂 Crediting you, of course. 😉
If we are getting KD for Barrett and Randle then I am cool with anything.
Mid summer is not the time for this kind of Knicks stress
okay then, 60/40 split nay over yay…
without knowing any details of the trade, cuz like it ain’t happened and all, difficult to know…
just speaking from an on-court basketball perspective, size concerns – no way to even know if julius would remain once the deal begins, but, yeah we’ll need to have a really good defensive four and five available to use…
it’s tough, i’m just now getting used to the thought of brunson with the ball in his hand most the time…it’s been sooooo long since i’ve watched the knicks use a traditional point guard…
judging from the end of the seson, it “seems” clear that if julius remains his usage will go way down…it seemed like they were increasing RJ’s usage…throw in donovan, fudge, no doubt a 45 win team, but – julius and donovan are turnover machines, like everyone else i hate watching sloppy basketball…
the thought of julius and now donovan “cooking” with the ball, possession after possession does not excite me…
good thing is, i do trust both brunson and RJ with the ball in their hands…it’ll be interesting to see where things sit come training camp in a couple of months…
I hope the Knicks keep Grimes and Toppin if this happens. Send out Fournier, Quickly, Reddish, two Knicks firsts, and two of the protected firsts. But I’d guess that does not get it done.
I’d try to keep the Dallas pick since the 2023 draft is supposed to be very deep, but I’ll bet Ainge covets that one most of all.
BTW, if the Knicks do get Mitchell, won’t Miami go all-in on Durant?
I am sticking to my guns and saying that I won’t judge Leon until opening day 2023-24.
Is tonight Grimes’ last game as a Knick?
Salt Lake Tribune report: https://www.sltrib.com/sports/jazz/2022/07/14/donovan-mitchells-future-with/
I like absolutely none of what is quoted from that article, you guys.
Yeah, RJ just doesn’t make sense for Utah. I’d love for Grimes and one of IQ and Obi to not be in the trade, but seems hard to believe it could be avoided. It seems like Cam and Deuce are in the Knicks current offer as a substitute for Grimes, but Utah will probably insist on Grimes.
It sounds like Quickley is a lock, which is sad.
Rose better walk away from this deal if Utah is seriously insisting on those terms. Hell, Rose needs to lower his offer.
Ainge is a moron if he doesn’t close this deal. Nobody else can offer nearly as much and they should be tanking for Victor and Scoot. They can’t seriously be trying to build around Donovan at this point.
I don’t think it’s negative enough. If I may beat the Titanic analogy to death, it’s like there’s a poll saying “should we steer away from the iceberg” and the results are split. Some people think the hull won’t be torn too bad. One guy thinks crashing into the iceberg was always the plan. And swifty (bless his heart) wants to know why no one thinks “maybe the iceberg should be afraid of us, am I right?”
I don’t know if I can handle hearing about this for that long.
That would be an outrageous return for a third tier star
I would rather have Grimes
I wonder what Thibs preference is. Probably against the trade.
Ainge doesn’t have to fleece us for this to be a bad trade… I mean don’t the economics of this go something like this? Mitchell’s trade value = his value to whatever team can best utilize him. If the Knicks aren’t the team that can best utilize him, both in terms of their position on the win curve and their roster composition, then a fair trade is already a crap trade for the Knicks in the same way a bargain on an ice cream cone isn’t so great if you’re not in the mood for ice cream since all you’re really buying there is sticky fingers.
You can’t just throw players into the freezer and thaw them out when your team is ready to take advantage. Players get older, their contracts cost money… Rostering any veteran is a huge risk because you use massive resources (cap and sometimes trade pieces) on something that you’re lucky if it keeps up its value. The risk is less for younger players but where is the upside? The only one is this hope of luring a true star, and I think that’s a fantasy for a team like the Knicks. I mean 20 years now the KNicks have been trying to go that route. How much evidence that it’s foolish do we need to collect ?
The other oft-forgotten aspect of the Melo trade comp is that Anthony and his agent (who was that again?) were actually leveraging their way to NY and it STILL drained the rainy day fund. Mitchell has no such leverage, it’s really just Ainge against MSG here (i.e. the Harlem Globetrotters vs the Washington Generals. Anybody want to place a bet on the generals here? Swift? Anyone?)
Melo changed his mind on the leverage, though (he said he would sign in Brooklyn, too), and that’s why the Knicks were ultimately fucked.
The Knicks tried to win at basketball by assembling a critical mass of guys who missed tons of shots and had neck tattoos, and the actual extent of the progress after more than a decade is this time they’re trying no neck tattoos.
Yeah this asking price is a big fat no. Just walk away Leon, please.
***Melo changed his mind on the leverage, though (he said he would sign in Brooklyn, too)***
That was after leveraging Denver into trading him (they didn’t want to), and was leverage to get New York to act at the deadline rather than waiting for the off-season to just sign him outright. Point is: Rose was driving Anthony to New York no matter what, he wasn’t goingk anywhere else. And now Ainge is at the wheel with Rose in the trunk, a full tank of gas and a half-pack of cigarettes. (No iceberg in this metaphor, sorry. There is literally nothing in his way, not even a toll-booth or a “work-zone fines doubled” sign.)
Watched the 2nd half of the game tonight:
Grimes continued to look dominant in SL, which is nice if he’s still on the team next month. 2 points shy of 24 🙁
Keels looks like a hilariously awful athlete, which is sad since he’s on our team.
Hunt is extremely athletic but looked out of position a couple times.
Still don’t trust Deuce to breakdown the defense despite his good numbers. Overthrew Hunt and Sims on what should’ve been easy alley oops.
So our offer is much better than Presti’s or Ujiri’s and somewhat better than Riley’s. I know who I think are the quality GM’s here.
I have a friend like Danny Ainge. Every time someone wants to buy something from him he starts the bidding 10 times higher than is reasonable. If you don’t walk away from him right then and there, you’re fucked. He’s not looking for fair deal. He’s looking for a sucker. And if you continue to negotiate after an opening offer like that is, you’ve told him you’re a sucker.
By the end, you offer 6 times more than is reasonable, and he makes you feel like you got the best of him for bringing his price down.
Walk away, Leon. This is not your time to shine.
Hubert you are describing a typical car salesman. That’s Danny.
Sounds like Deuce had a better game tonight. Did he get to the rack more often?
He got inside a couple of times but the fact that Grimes has been getting to rim fairly regularly makes Deuce look bad by comparison. McBride’s future is as the guy who Thibs puts in for one defensive possession every other week.
So a Jazz beat writer said that Ainge asked for 6 1st round picks plus Obi, Quickley, Grimes and McBride and Rose said no… if that trade happened we might as well just fold the damn franchise. If this was the starting asking price, Rose should just block Danny Ainge’s number and never look back.
Nicos, you’re just jealous cuz he’s cute and has way better hair. 9-13 for 23 is good (w 5 rebs and 5 assts), and he had a few good penetrations for layups.
So lonely on Deuce Island…
(Hey, is that the Titanic I see sailing by in the distance…? Hi guys!)
Bruno: “So a Jazz beat writer said that Ainge asked for 6 1st round picks plus Obi, Quickley, Grimes and McBride and Rose said no… if that trade happened we might as well just fold the damn franchise. If this was the starting asking price, Rose should just block Danny Ainge’s number and never look back.”
If so, just wow. If I were Rose, I’d counter with Randle and Fournier for Mitchell and a first rounder, just for kicks.
Does that trade rumor even work salary-wise without the Knick including Fournier or Randle?
Jazz beat writers and the Salt Lake Tribune are publicizing deals that are lopsided in favor of their franchise, this is something we’ve never seen before, right? LOL
Our beat writer said one player (Mitch) and 3 picks. Maybe Ainge should walk away.
Just relax, guys, it’s a negotiation. And no one is a sucker for negotiating. You’re only a sucker if you make the (bad) deal.
It’s not like Rose is some rube- he was a very successful agent so he’s no stranger to negotiating. My guess is that if a deal gets done it’ll be an overpay but not a fleecing.
“Jazz beat writers and the Salt Lake Tribune are publicizing deals that are lopsided in favor of their franchise, this is something we’ve never seen before, right? LOL”
But how would that benefit the Jazz? The Jazz benefit the most if there’s actual competition for a trade, in this case if the Heat or OKC or anyone else joins the race and it becomes a bidding war. By claiming such a prohibitive price it effectively takes away some of those competitors, for example, the Heat can’t even possibly offer 6 1sts because they literally are not allowed by the rules with their current draft capital. I don’t see how Ainge would benefit from a report like this, specially since the actual negotiations are obviously going on behind the scenes as we speak and reports from the media are unlikely to sway a team to make an inquiry one way or another.
Apparently that was just a poorly phrased report and it was Mitch PLUS other players, just that the deal was initially going to be centered around Mitch. But it probably was still Mitch, IQ, Grimes and the draft picks. The lesser draft picks would probably be due to it being Mitch in the deal instead of Fournier (and if it was three unprotected Knicks picks, that’s not much different than three Knicks unprotected picks and the two protected picks from other teams).
What, no deal yet? Shame on all y’all…
There was a stretch in the 4th where Grimes basically did whatever he wanted. During the times I saw Grimes on the bench, Deuce & Keels really struggled penetrating. Maybe he was great in the 1st half or the time I got up, but I still think he’d be better as a 2.
If only current me could travel back in time and tell myself that it will be even worse then I thought…I did bail until they got the T-1000, but it was still not worth it…
Heh, looking at my reactions on that Melo trade thread:
but, important to keep in mind now, I guess:
It is kind of funny to read this tweet from Woj back then from a Donnie Walsh ally:
Heh, liked this comment from ww007. Yeah, I wonder whatever happened to that Nuggets GM. I wonder if the Knicks ever made another deal with him.
the iceberg is simply there to add character to those who survive…
excellent way of putting it hubie – what would it take for us to win this deal…i think it’s safe to say adding donovan mitchell to your roster is a positive thing…can you imagine all the opportunities for mitch with jalen and donovan playing a 2 man game to the rim…donovan can pass…
gotta imagine his agents are trying to get through to thibs to let him know he’ll go all in on defense…
you’re right though about ainge hubie, he ain’t looking for no fair deal…
Where’s Michael Ray Richardson when you need him?
I agree, Bruno. So i see 2 explanations, one being the beat writers / media outlets think they’re helping, but in fact they’re not helping at all, or there’s only one team bidding (i think it’s this one) and for you to try to extract maximum value, you send some insane propositions to the public, to put some pressure on the other side.
I heard Leon is waiting for you to be ready to comment on the deal first hand. Leave it all behind and get back, we need Donovan. 😀
I have to say i’m lowering what i think is the smartness level of this board, each day by a little, if you guys keep saying that the Melo deal is exactly the same as the (possible) Donovan deal.
It’s not the same, but it’s analogous
There are ways it isn’t the same. Mostly because we whiffed on The Decision and blundered into a capped out low-IQ overrated team. Mitchell’s salary is locked in for 3 years at a reasonable number and he’s probably more rootable than Melo. But there are definite similarities. Mostly the dread of getting fleeced. Had the Melo deal involved 2 less pieces it might not have hurt quite as much.
4 first rounders. One young player (give them Grimes) and Randle.
That’s my offer.
You get 4 first rounders. Donovan Mitchell was drafted later in the lottery. They can find the next one with 4 shots.
Grimes is who they want the most from our young players.
Randle is a former second all-NBA player who gets 20 and 10 in his sleep and is only 27. Rehabilitate his value and flip him later for more picks.
That’s my offer. Otherwise walk away. If they don’t want Randle, then let them have Rose and Fournier. Maybe throw in a few second rounders and rights to Rokas.
Where i said “exactly the same” can be “analogous”. We are in a much different position now, we’ll keep at least 3 picks to trade, at the time we were left with no picks, and we’ll keep a healthy team around Donovan, at the time we didn’t have a team around Melo, we had the always injured Amare, old man Billups (which we amnestied in the offseason), Landry Fields and Ronny Turiaf. It’s “analogous” to what we’ll have around Donovan, for sure.
It’s not the same, but is’s analogous
To expand on that…unfortunately with this team, history has a tendency to repeat itself (let’s clear up cap space to sign an all-time great (LBJ, KD), let’s hire a HOF coach to get us winning again (Wilkins, Brown), let’s hire a President with absolutely zero FO experience (Phil, Leon)). So if something smells like a Melo deal, you can’t fault those who expect it to be exactly like the Melo deal.
Yeah he’ll probably lead the league in blocked shot attempts from all the guards we won’t be able to cover.
I like Donovan Mitchell. But come on. Stop trying to talk yourselves into it. This is not smart.
By the time all is said and done, we’ll have used something like 8 first round picks, 4 second round picks, and all our best prospects to acquire Donovan Mitchell and the cap space to sign Brunson. That’s KD & Kawhi prices for two small guards who can’t play D.
If I could post a GIF right now it would be Mugatu shouting “Doesn’t anyone else see this? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.”
What’s the alternative? Hope that it crashes and burns so that Dolan can fire Leon and hire (not Masai)?