“Remember How Cool That Game 2 Win Over the Hawks Was? Then Boy, Do I Have Good News For You” – The Knicks’ 2021 Offseason

copy pasted from the previous thread:

I guess Rose’s plan to trade for a disgruntled superstar is to… offer a package of draft picks and then throw in vets to match salary…? I don’t see that enticing anyone unless said superstar is dead set on going to NY and tells his team, “take the Knicks’ deal, or I pull a Vince Carter and quit on the team.”

The margin is so narrow for such a thing to happen.

Let me put my Macri hat on and posit this: what if Rose’s strategy is to leverage the irrational optimism of Knicks fans and the media attention a decent Knicks team will get in order to trick superstars into coming here? I call it the “Potemkin Village Contender” strategy.

Looking at r/nba to gauge the average fan’s reaction, and pretty much every Knicks fan and even fans of other teams like what the Knicks did. They’re excited to run it back plus Fournier. They think securing the vets on 3 year market rate deals makes them moveable pieces. People eat it up with a spoon when Leon Rose makes low-upside marginal improvements. So maybe someone like Damian Lillard won’t automatically rule out NY.

That makes this the formula: The Knicks being decent + having the assets to make it work on the NBA Trade Machine + irrational fan & media hype + ???? = superstar forces a trade to NY.

That’s all I got. My head hurts now. I’m taking off the Macri hat.

Fuck.

Hey, I got some bitchin’ iPhone video of the final possession of Game 2!

Other than Chris Paul and Derrick Rose, one wonders whether Leon Rose even knows the identity of the other available point guards.

EDIT: Oops — Elfrid Payton, too. Sorry, Leon.

The “favorite deal” poll could use a None of the above option. Likewise, an All of the above for the “least favorite” one.

Didn’t vote in the first poll because I didn’t like any of the signings, voted Rose as the worst deal because of age/durability concerns.

DRed:
Didn’t vote in the first poll because I didn’t like any of the signings, voted Rose as the worst deal because of age/durability concerns.

Same here.
I have a “less disliked” signing, but not a “favorite” and this time it’s not a meaningless difference…

As a whole I feel numb, more in the “it is what it is” than in the angry camp (but 3YR/43M for Rose is def annoying).

I voted Noel for best, Burks for worst. Neither are by any big margin.

As for the team itself, I feel it is generally better. 9 players are back from the roster as it stood at the end of the season. I haven’t done any deep research yet, but I can’t remember the last time that the Knicks brought back that many players. When you create a great foundation it’s smart to build on it rather than demolish it and start over. I expect RJ, IQ and Obi to make big jumps. Grimes looks like a legit 3&D guy. We forget that Vildoza and McBride are point guards.

We need to add a big, big body to handle thug centers. Of course, Taj is always a possibility.

Well, the Knicks were 24-11 with Rose once they traded for him. They were 11-14 before trading for him. So it’s not surprising they wanted him back.

Now they have a positive offensive contributor at every position (except maybe RJ). Idk maybe the defense will suffer without Bullock, but it’s probably worth it.

I still think this is a good team albeit with a hard ceiling. That said, a star demanding a trade to NY is probably the most likely way we will ever get a star (remember Melo? lol) Maybe Leon has some intel in that regard. And I do think a big part of these signings is PR with the players… showing that “things will work out for you if you come to the Knicks.” That even goes for them trying to mend fences with Melo.

I’m not all torn up about this. It’s not nearly as bad as signing Noah or the Melo trade. I still think the mismanaged 19th pick is the worst part, but I really like our rookies.

And I’m not trying to be team optimist here, I just don’t think anything is that catastrophic.

Btw I think they can still have close to $6 mil to spend on another player if Rose delays his signing. That could be useful.

Btw I think they can still have close to $6 mil to spend on another player if Rose delays his signing. That could be useful.

I think it depends on how much cap space they had to begin with it. It’s amusingly vague. If they had $54 million to start with, then yes, they could get up to $5.5 million, but I think they might have started with $52 million, so they’d only have $3.5 million to spend.

Assuming $54 million, it’d be:

Fournier – $18
Burks – $10
Noel – $10.5
Rose – $10 (cap hold)

So that’s $48.5 million. So it just depends on how much they started with.

Brian Cronin: Most likely, yes. The fascinating thing is what if they use the room on Melo?

I think the social media hype would be incredible, frankly. People would latch onto the redemption narrative and Melo’s tenure in NY would be turned into hagiography. Casual fans tend to view the Knicks trading Melo to OKC as a sordid end to things. This would give a lot of fans the kind of storybook ending they want.

If, as ess-dog said, part of Leon Rose’s goal is to rehabilitate the Knicks as a star-friendly franchise, bringing back Melo could actually go a long way.

These moves are incredibly meh, but I am not sure what else we could have done. Lonzo strikes me as the only missed opportunity. Lonzo aside, once we struck out on Lowry and Paul, the options were (1) run the team back or (2) bring in some other guys on one year deals. I don’t really see what the latter option does for us, beyond preserving 2022 cap flexibility that would be used to… bring back more guys on one year deals. It is disappointing given that there seemed to be some signals we would make a big move, but ultimately I am fine with running it back. One positive is that it seems like we are giving IQ and RJ room to grow. Our ceiling now depends on the growth of our young players, but didn’t it always?

Knick fan not in NJ:
Repost:

I’ve been thinking about this off-season and our management’s moves and I have come up with a new perspective. When say, the Dallas Mavericks, have their off season and two of their big moves are to re-sign Tim Hardaway and to sign Reggie Bullock along with keeping their draft pick, we don’t look at their management and think “ what are they doing, they should have done more”. We think did they make moves that added what they needed to improve. Why do we think this? Because we think of them as a good team. They finished fifth in their conference and made the first round of the playoffs. But when the Knicks re-sign some players and sign a useful free agent to a useful contract, we have anguish. We don’t think of our team as a good team even though we finished fourth in our conference and played a first round playoff series…

I’m also disappointed that the Knicks didn’t make any moves that had high upside. Even if having a worse record isn’t an option and consequently renting out cap space for future assets gets ruled out, there’s still more dynamic moves to make. There wasn’t targeting of undervalued young players that could outplay their contracts. All the new FA signings are known quantities. I’m like “OK FINE I GUESS.”

Having had an evening to sleep on it, my feeling is more or less “meh”.

The goal for this off season was to improve the team enough to make the playoffs again, try to get into the second round, and have some upside, all while keeping some flexibility.

1. Move up in the draft.

2. Free agency.

3. Trade

The kind of players I had in mind for free agency/trade were Ball, Sexton, Turner, Payne and others that would be an upgrade and young enough to improve.

However, these things are a two-way street. The other guy (or team in the case of a trade) has to cooperate.

The cost to move up in the draft was too high.

The cost for Turner was probably too high.

Payne probably was willing to take less to stay with the Suns and compete for a title again.

I’m not sure why they didn’t pursue Ball harder. That may be a mistake, but we don’t know the details.

Sexton is still out there for a trade, but again the cost matters.

Once all the best targets were gone, the choice was to bring back the same players and upgrade where possible or take a major step bank and tank again. They weren’t going to tank. Forgetaboutit! So they brought back Noel, Burks, and Rose and upgraded Bullock with Fournier. Fournier is exactly the kind of player they were looking for. He’s a floor spacing scorer that can make plays.

The major thing to complaint is the contracts are 3 years. That locks us out of free agency for a few years. It limits us to trades and the draft. We are looking at a combination of picks and players in a trade and internal development to improve.

Most likely our players had similar offers out there and we didn’t have a choice other than to sign them for 3 year or take a step back (forgetaboutit). The only deal I hate is Rose because at his age with his injury risk and minute restrictions it’s just BAD. That one is probably on Thibs.

Now punting on the 19th pick sticks in my craw more. If our upside is limited to our draftees improving, why not take a shot at a raw project player at 19?

That makes this the formula: The Knicks being decent + having the assets to make it work on the NBA Trade Machine + irrational fan & media hype + ???? = superstar forces a trade to NY.

it’s not going to make sense because the city will turn on the team once the novelty of first round exits wears off… or god forbid we miss the playoffs next year…. we’ve been through this rodeo before where there’s an expiration date on the squad… but this one is neither as talented and probably barely as much longevity so i imagine it will be a short honeymoon…

however.. this team will basically live and die with the development of RJ and he’ll keep the attention of the city throughout his career (hopefully).. Randle hopefully also and it’ll be their play that will attract a star…. everybody else has and always will be window dressing….

They should have gotten younger and raised their ceiling, and there were all manner of ways they could have done it, but they didn’t because Thibs now has de facto personnel control.

This truly is the Thibs nightmare — overachieving year one in flukish circumstances; playoff appearance and blowout (*); uses year one illusory overachievement to littlefinger his way into personnel control with a front office led by a neophyte who’s in over his head; old, low-ceiling, capped-out roster based a lot on weird Thibs loyalty ensues.

Deny and rationalize as you will (**), but that’s exactly what’s happened. The bill has now come due. Looking back a year, I would not have hired Thibs. The costs outweigh the benefits.

(*) Capped off by Thibs, in vintage, surpassingly on-script, Thibsian fashion, running the aging PG he can’t quit into the ground. The PG they just resigned for three years and $43 million.

(**) I mean, look, I understand the human desire to be optimistic and positive, even if it’s just for positivity’s sake. That’s a real thing and it’s a perfectly justifiable thing and many people are wired that way and this is, after all, just sports.

Once all the best targets were gone, the choice was to bring back the same players and upgrade where possible or take a major step bank and tank again.

I think this is the major mental block from strat.. and this FO for that matter…

even in bringing the band back and adding what you think is an upgraded piece… doesn’t make us automatically ‘better’…. on paper and in theory you would think it does… but give some age based depreciation to some players… sprinkle in some regression… dash in some less opp 3pt luck… and you bringing back the same team could in fact mean that we are taking a step back all in itself….

the phoenix suns aren’t going to be entitled to another finals run just because they bring the same team back.. same with the bucks… it likely gets harder next year if some health returns to some teams…. some teams got better… we’re largely in the same boat as everyone else…

that’s why improving for the next year…. with instead a sustainable roster for the long term… could’ve in fact kept the win total roughly the same while building something sustainable…. and that involves taking some risk…. but bringing back the same dudes involve taking risk also.. doing nothing involves the most risk of all and that’s where we’re at….

however.. this team will basically live and die with the development of RJ

It’s more than just RJ.

It’s RJ, Mitch, Obi, Quick, and their 2 new draft picks. It’s also not just “do they become all stars”. It’s do they improve enough to become very attractive to another team as part of a deal to upgrade another position.

For example, let’s say Obi turns himself into a legitimate starter on a very good team. We have Randle and Obi. One of them becomes expendable in a trade. If you include a pick or two maybe you can find a serious upgrade at PG. It’s the same with Quick and Mitch. We have Noel. So we don’t really need Mitch depending on health and development. That makes Mitch and picks available for a significant upgrade at PG. There are still windows. Sexton is still out there and maybe also Fox.

There was some controversy over whether it could be tweaked so it didn’t use cap space.

Yeah, if they use cap space, they can sign him to any contract, but if they use his Early Bird Rights (which I assume they will want to do to free up a little extra cap room), then they are limited to what they can sign him to. The numbers are so close I find it hard to believe it won’t end up being through his Early Bird Rights, at which point the Knicks will open up $3.5 million to $5.5 million that could be used on another free agent and then they could also use the room exception of about $5 million on another free agent.

It’s RJ, Mitch, Obi, Quick, and their 2 new draft picks. It’s also not just “do they become all stars”. It’s do they improve enough to become very attractive to another team as part of a deal to upgrade another position.

why do those other guys matter when they’re likely going to be centerpieces in a trade back? we would presumably keep rj… well maybe not if it’s for lillard….

Alan: Ha, I voted the exact opposite.

We clearly have very different opinions 🙂
While much of the noise has and always was about point guard, with only Mitch in tow, center was a bigger hole. Having a rim protector in the lineup at all times was a defensive must-have. There just aren’t many centers out there that can match Noel for the price.

Deeefense:
“@NYPost_Berman
Told PG Spencer Dinwiddie didn’t consider Knicks “a fit”. Not sure because of Thibodeau or his flamboyance doesn’t match James Dolan’s media policy.”

We won that deal. 🙂

LMAO so Dinwiddie didn’t want to come here because he was afraid Dolan wouldn’t like him bloviating about cryptocurrency and shit.

Dinwiddie is flamboyant but in a reddit way, you know?

I think this is the major mental block from strat.. and this FO for that matter…

even in bringing the band back and adding what you think is an upgraded piece… doesn’t make us automatically ‘better’…. on paper and in theory you would think it does… but give some age based depreciation to some players… sprinkle in some regression… dash in some less opp 3pt luck… and you bringing back the same team could in fact mean that we are taking a step back all in itself….

As usual, your extreme negatively and management hate is clouding your thinking. 🙂

Of course there are possible downsides like Randle shooting 30%-35% from 3, Rose declining again or getting hurt etc…

You could have said things like that last year and in any other year too. On the flip side no one saw Randle taking an extreme leap like he did, but it happened. Maybe this year it will be Quick, Obi, and RJ. Maybe Mitch will come back healthy and take a big step forward by the 2nd half of the season. We know what these players did last year. We know that Fournier is an upgrade over Bullock. We know we have more players likely to improve than players that are likely to decline. So even if someone like Randle regresses (as I expect), a few others should improve enough to more than make up that gap.

More important is that teams like Boston and Miami are probably not going to be as bad this year if healthy and a couple of teams may have improved more.

If Mudiay shows something in Summer League, I would almost kind of want to see what a Thibs-coached Mudiay would look like. Probably a DNP-CD, but still, it’d be an interesting trainwreck, at least!

This is everything I expected. We built a team that will consistently be in the play in tournament.

The frustrating thing is we had a real shot after Mills was fired. The team was in surprisingly good shape for anyone who was willing to come in and be patient. But Dolan decided to go with Leon Rose instead of a real POBO. And Leon Rose wanted to win now.

So now we have achieved mediocrity, and left enormous potential unfulfilled. My guess is that Dolan is going to be thrilled, too.

My biggest concern is Fournier, but at least the last year is a team option. Still, it’s a lot of money for a guy that has played a lot of losing basketball…

I must admit that at one point, reading a glowing report about his offense, I was thinking, “So, his awesome offense really helped those great Orlando offenses of recent years, right?”

djphan: why do those other guys matter when they’re likely going to be centerpieces in a trade back? we would presumably keep rj… well maybe not if it’s for lillard….

The goal is to upgrade a position.

If you have potential duplication (Obi/Randle. Mitch/Nerlens etc..) one of them is going to be underutilized for NY. So he becomes available for a trade for an upgraded starter at another position. If Obi improves a lot, that’s great for him and us. We could trade him to get a PG that will START and give us 35 minutes instead of having Obi give us 15 minutes behind Randle. Then we are immediately better. All our young players (and picks) are potential assets for rearranging the team and making it better.

And Fournier is a DAMN good player.

Said no one, ever. Well, until you, just now.

Oh man, you’re making me sad thinking about how happy I was last offseason.

Z-man:
Hey strat, take a look at the hot takes in this thread….from just after free agency last year.

I didn’t embarrass myself too much.

I’m trying to stay even. I’m disappointed, but I don’t think we incinerated our cap space or the 19th pick. 🙂

By the way, looking at Z-Man’s link, it just shows how fucking stupid the whole “you just like to be angry” bullshit is, as when the Knicks make good moves, we applaud the good moves. When they don’t, we don’t. Simple as that. I was so pumped about their last offseason.

This isn’t a debacle, it’s just “meh.” They put together a team that won’t stink but also won’t compete for anything other than the 6 seed. We’re stuck in the no-man’s-land of draft picks, which I guess doesn’t matter bc we don’t like using draft picks anyway.

It’s just so obvious there was a better alternative. It may not have yielded a 41 win team right out of the gate, but so what?

Nah, ya’ll just have your dudes that you like on other teams and discount how good the dudes are we have on our team. You all suffer from keeping up with the joneses syndrome. You’re like the dude who has a great girlfriend…good looking, chill, fun to hang out with and yet you always look at the other girl and think she’s hotter. Its time to settle down and get in a serious relationship with this team. Accept them for who they are and support them so they can grow.

And upgrade is on the way. We just have to be patient. And we’re not done this off season yet either.

Its ok. You’ll all be wrong again this season and you’ll admit it but then go right back to your ways the next day. Its the way it is.

Our team is set to go to the next level while still being super young. And yes, Fournier is a damn good player. Saying he isn’t doesn’t make it so.

Stuck in no man’s land.

Yeah winning basketball games sure does suck.

F this championship or bust mentality. The Bucks lost in the first round last year and are now world champions. No one thought Atlanta would make the ECF this year. The fact is, none of you ACTUALLY know what will happen and are wrong just as many times as you’re right.

Please tell me the Derrick Rose contract is one guaranteed year with two team options. And hopefully Burke’s and Noel’s third years are team options?

I don’t mind a hold the fort strategy when getting better doesn’t seem to be in the cards (assuming that there was a Plan A that they quickly realized was not going to happen), but holding the fort for three years on a team that very likely overachieved for a year? I really hope that’s just a joke, and not the current FO’s thinking.

are we a lottery team if derrick rose misses significant games? we probably are right?

Stuck in no man’s land.

Yeah winning basketball games sure does suck.

The joy of being a team that gets trounced in the first round has diminishing returns.

I just don’t feel like for all the dollars and years we committed yesterday we really moved the needle very much. To my eyes Thibs Randle RJ Mitch IQ was a good start towards at least a play-in tournament team even if they had used the rest of their cap to take on bad money (get in on the Adams Bledsoe dump for example) or sign one-year value contracts again.

I thought the old strategy of continuing to roll forward all your flexibility while trying to gradually improve and maintain a solid base of assets until a big opportunity came along made plenty of sense – it wasn’t my first choice but it was solid. Pivoting away from that at this point just to lock in a slightly above average team for the next three years – I just don’t get it really. We’ve bided our time so patiently and this is the opportunity we lunged at?

There is so much upside on this team. Seriously?

RJ – will most definitely improve
IQ – will most definitely improve
Obi – will most definitely improve
Mitch – definitely a question mark with health but if he stays on the court and can continue what he did in the first half of last season and maybe get some more lobs and putbacks, that’s upside for sure.

then we have the unknowns of Villadoza, Grimes and McBride. I’m not expecting huge contributions from our rookies but you never know. Villadoza is also a question mark but he’s an accomplished European player and won’t be the typical rookie coming into the league in that regard.

That’s a lot of potential upside.

I do think they should try to get one more stop gap emergency PG just in case. And bring back Taj too.

You know who very clearly didn’t believe the whole “you can move contracts whenever you want” thing until yesterday? Our front office. They meticulously avoided 2022 money since they took over until 18 hours ago.

If we were always comfortable surrendering 2022 (and beyond) flexibility, does anyone want to make the case that any of these moves were better than beating the Rockets’ offer for Wood? That’s a deal you could actually trade for surplus value (i.e. not “with extra assets attached when you’re desperate”) at the drop of a hat. It’s also a deal that makes us substantially better basketball team, so everyone is happy.

Hell, we have no reason to be happy we avoided the Hayward deal if this was the plan instead. He comes off the books at the same time as Rose/Noel/Burks, and he +2 draft picks/exception signings are almost definitely better basketball wise too.

This is what I mean when I say there was a clear, major change of perspective. Putting together a team that lucked its way into the 4th seed and got spanked in the first round should not cause such a change.

I get it… after decades of mismanagement and abuse, it’s easy to think nothing will ever go right again… but holy hell, the negativity around the draft and these deals makes reading fan sites utterly miserable!

Last year’s team was fun as hell! They got better as the season progressed (playoffs aside) and I came to love and appreciate every one of these guys. Payton felt like the only true negative on the roster, and he’s gone. I’ll miss Bullock, but Fournier seems like a possible net win. Rose has completely redefined himself as an elite role player. Burks and Noel both made huge contributions and I’m glad to keep ’em in the fold.

And then we’ve still got a bunch of fun kids on the roster, with a few promising rookies in the mix. It’s the best YOUNG Knicks team since we sold the farm for Melo. Run it back! Let these guys build chemistry, strengthen that identity. I want to see IQ in a bigger role. I want to see if Toppin might actually turn into an NBA player.

Yeah, the playoffs were a bust – particularly for our best players – but Atlanta was just better. The team still has room for improvement, and there’s not an albatross among the contracts.

Looking forward to summer league and the regular season!

Lucked their way into the 4th seed. F off with that bullshit.

This team played their asses off every night. The number of games they phoned in last season was less than I can count on one hand. Even when they were going up against much better teams, they fought hard to the end. That is why they brought these dudes back.

CULTURE MATTERS.

Lucked their way to the 4th seed. Seriously. Stop it.

if you believe for some reason that last season is likely to be repeatable with the same roster, then I guess you’re OK with this. To me it feels a lot like summer 2013. And yes I know this analogy has been made before and that the 2013 team was quite a bit older. I still feel though that both teams’ success was on the back of exceptional seasons from players who were past the typical age of real improvement. Even the younger players on the 2013 mostly got worse in the following seasons. Guys like Chris Copeland and Steve Novak were practically done after being large contributors. Carmelo was never as good. Ray Felton and JR Smith too. All those guys were 30 or younger. It’s not that they got worse exactly from the big picture. it’s more like they resumed the trajectory of their career before the exceptional season. If the same thing happens to Derrick Rose, i.e. he’s hurt all the time and doesn’t score as well, Burks… Same story, randle struggles to shoot so incredibly. I don’t consider this team at all a lock to make the playoffs. In fact Id bet against it although it’s a close call.

And sure, the Knicks made an exceptionally stupid decision that summer to trade for Bargnani. Nothing here matches that I don’t think. Last year’s team now has less clearance, Less distance to fall before it’s out of the playoffs. If just Randle and Rose play like they did the season before last, this team is going to win 35 games or so.

I’m curious about how the rotation will shake out. Many presume that Rose will start, but maybe it’s better to start Quickley at point, since the starting lineup now features Randle and Fournier as creators.

Then again, the second unit will utilize Burks, who has point guard qualities. I’m leaning towards staring Quickley, though. Aside from Rose, who is improved, that’s a lot of plus 3pt shooters.

The 2nd unit still needs an SF, as I’m assuming Thibs doesn’t want to give Knox any minutes. I suppose Grimes could play with Burks on the 2nd unit, but that’s a pretty small lineup. Maybe they still have a minor trade up their sleeve…

We should find one vet PG, maybe not great but who can hold the spot down if IQ,Deuce,Vildoza can’t hack it. Basically a Rivers replacement who complains less.

wait… is Rose really not starting? i know Rose stated that it’s not good for him to start but i don’t think there’s any possibility that he’s not… it’s an open question on whether or not IQ is a pg… ditto for Vildoza and McBride…. and so Rose is the only de facto pg on the roster… at least one that thibs actually trusts…

Maybe he’s starting. I just think it’s a bad idea. Bringing him off the bench by default forces Thibs to play him less, and we saw what happened when his body got pushed too far. But beyond that, his style of play has not really meshed well with Randle and Barrett, which makes him a perfect guy to dominate the second unit and an ill fit alongside our two best players.

How good is Evan Fournier really? I have to admit that I haven’t followed him closely and don’t know much about him. Spent the last few seasons flirting with 20 points per game on mediocre teams but how good is he really? He lit up both Tatum and Lavine last week…can he have nights like that every 4-5 games or so? Does she still have an upside and can he become an All-Star for us?

I was adamantly against bringing in Schroder before, but if the idea is to all-in on mediocrity anyway and we can do it for the remaining cap space + shipping out Knox, sure, why not? We’re definitely not doing anything more interesting.

Clearly I am a professional graphic designer:

All I can think today, having missed the news yesterday and reading about all of the new contracts at once

Tommy Beer
@TommyBeer
FYI:

Assuming the Knicks sign Rose using his Early Bird Rights (which they will), the Knicks have about $8.5 million in cap space left to spend.

They also will have their Room Exception – which is worth $4,910,000

Tommy Beer
@TommyBeer
That’s including Luca Vildoza’s cap number.

If the Knicks waive Vildoza, that would create an additional $3,325,000.

Which would bring New Yorks’s sum total to ~$12 million in cap space.

They totally suck!

They should have 50 million in cap space but they incinerated it all on players that know how to play basketball. Morons!!!

lmao

(I’m just trying to get with the program)

Seriously, Vildoza has not looked all that good in the Olympics.

With 12 million and 4.9 million they could still add a quality player and have room for FRANK!!!!!! to team up with Fournier!

If they throw Knox into a trade, they could do more.

I love DRose. He’s a DOG. Think PJ Tucker on the offensive side…perfect for playoff battles. If Thibs and Rose think that IQ is ready to start at PG with DRose as his back up and to finish games, then this is perfect for what we need.

I believe that yesterday was more about not sliding back into the abyss. No?

Clearly I am a professional graphic designer:

Bad photoshops are pretty much always funnier than good ones, and this was no exception.

They should have 50 million in cap space but they incinerated it all on players that know how to play basketball. Morons!!!

Yeah, Lonzo Ball, Devonte Graham, Cameron Payne, and Isaiah Jackson are all baseball players.

If it’s not an all out Hinkie tank where we draft all kids and accumulate more picks or a trade for one of the greatest players on earth at significant bargain price some people will hate anything and everything we do

Your logical fallacy is: Straw Man!

Literally nobody here advocated anything like that so please stop spewing stupid all over this thread.

Some of you guys seem not respecting Fournier who had won more playoff games in Orlando than the post Melo Knicks or Julius Randle.

Using these 3 years to build the Knicks back to playoffs bound good team might be ok, because there is hardly a way to a title getting past Giannis and the Nets for a couple of years. It’s not like you had a Harden whose prime would be wasted forcing the Rockets to try hard against golden state. It really is the unimaginative safe play that’s easy to make and good for the business.

Leon Rose did a nice job of getting us to the playoffs and we’re no longer laughingstock status. Bravo for that, Leon! Here’s a cookie.

This is the part though where you want to actually improve the team. And we essentially brought back the same team, then locked it in for three years. It’s probably not gonna be a BAD team, but it’s probably not gonna break through to the next level, not when Old Man Derrick Rose, a second round pick who might not pan out, and a bunch of guys who are really shooting guards are manning the PG position.

It’s criminal negligence that this is our point guard rotation. It’s kind of an important position! And we’re betting on Derrick Rose, who is about to be playing ten million minutes per season, staying super durable and productive, lest that crucial position turn into a gaping black hole.

Filling that hole should have been job one. Bringing in the backup center and veteran bench wing should have been lesser priorities. This will come back to burn us, just like it did in last year’s playoffs, when our bare cupboard at PG got badly exploited.

–ISM
–Opponent injuries/load management
–Knicks injuries/load management
–Every game is Game 7
–Utterly obliterated in every dimension against a lower playoff seed
–Empty arenas
–Best player disaster in playoffs once arenas opened up
–Best player played completely differently than previous years with arenas empty and reverted badly once arenas opened up

If the term “luck” offends, that’s cool, and yeah, the Knicks absolutely earned everything they got last year — but everything screams “reversion” here.

Its time to settle down and get in a serious relationship with this team. Accept them for who they are and support them so they can grow.

it’s all to the good swift 🙂

different people express themselves differently – it doesn’t mean they’re “bad” fans or it’s a personal affront to your beliefs…many of us are new york born – so, the pessimism and negativity come easily…

heck, no doubt some might even use your earnest positivity against you – just because they can…

shoot, if anything we need to sign you up for one of donnie walsh’s : how to be a happier fan seminars…

the true secret is remembering that being a knick fan is probably one of the least important aspects of our lives…

#dowhatdonniedo

Fournier helps alleviate the need for a strong PG. Part of the starters problem was Bullock, Elf, Mitch/Noel, and to a lesser extent RJ couldn’t generate offense.

The starters low usage at 3 positions hamstrung the offense and forced Randle to do everything. Bullock’s 14.4 USG% is being replaced with Fournier’s 23.1 USG% (over 26 on ORL). Adding higher USG players has been shown to increase efficiency for the lineup.

We still need a competent PG though and rookie McBride or untested Euro Vildoza is a tough sell.

Filling that hole should have been job one. Bringing in the backup center and veteran bench wing should have been lesser priorities. This will come back to burn us, just like it did in last year’s playoffs, when our bare cupboard at PG got badly exploited.

To be fair, we could still theoretically target Schroder/Nunn/Reggie Jackson/whoever else I’m missing. If we dump Knox we can offer $13-$14M.

Not enthralled by any of those options, but now we’re done until 2024 anyway, so whatever.

Early Bird:
I mean, Frank would give us a strong wing defender and another PG option…

*waits for chaos*

Yes, Frank Ntilikina, who has dribbled into the paint exactly four times since he first touched a basketball, is a “PG option” in the most competitive basketball league on earth

Lol I don’t like Drummond at all but him on the minimum while Noel gets 3/$32M kind of gives away the game here

okay then – why not patty mills???

Name one thing that Dennis Schroder is good at.

Not exactly thrilled with our first day signings…
The names weren’t sexy, the money weren’t bargains and the years weren’t …One!

Otoh after reading everyone’s pov and after thinking about it for hours i must say that i found one positive!

We rewarded the guys that gave their heart and soul last season for the team so that gives us a player-friendly image of a caring and rewarding team that’s more attractive to players.

I’m still waiting for one more traditional pg to join the team to feel much better

I think Noel is an absolute stud on defense but until he can play 38 MPG and catch a 10 mph chest pass, I can’t see how he’s getting more than $8M AAV on the open market. At least he’s young.

While Derrick Rose could break down, let’s all remember that before he came here was 11-14 and it was 24-11 after. I know there’s rational hatred of him as a person but hatred of the player is irrational. He’ll be an ancient 33 when the season starts.

By position:

Center: Solid
Power Forward: Solid
Shooting Guard: Solid
Small Forward: Lacking
Point Guard: Train Wreck

Taj Gibson bleeds Orange and Blue, doesn’t he? I hope that he can help turn Jericho Sims into a more athletic version of himself.

Didn’t vote on the favorite deal… maybe the option “none” is missing, because i don’t like a single deal. Voted DRose on the worst deal because i think at that money he’ll be the most untradable of the bunch. And yeah, he re-invented himself, but he also has a (long) injury history. It’s just a matter of him going down, then don’t regain his mojo and that’s an albatross right there. But let’s hope he can keep this year’s level of play, for it to just be a slight overpay (not ideal, but not crippling either).

(and now i’m going to try to read the thread from the beginning… wish me luck! LOL)

ess-dog:
Reggie Jackson had decent numbers last year, including .433% from three on 4-plus attempts per game. I wouldn’t mind him at a decent price, although I’m sure we aren’t considering him.

Jackson would be a perfectly cromulent choice. He can hit the three and do point guard things, which I guess by default qualifies him to be our starting 1.

The Orange and Blues Brothers are “putting the band back together.”

They are on a mission from who the hell knows!

Addicted To The Knicks:
The Orange and Blues Brothers are “putting the band back together.”

They are on a mission from who the hell knows!

Joliet Jake: We need $5m of cap space fast!
Maury Sline: 5m? Who do you think you are, the Beatles?

JK47:
Derrick Rose started breaking down in the playoffs from overuse. Our coach is Tom Thibodeau.

Draw your own conclusions.

He also missed 20 games last year including 12/46 after the trade.

JK47: Your logical fallacy is: Straw Man!

Literally nobody here advocated anything like that so please stop spewing stupid all over this thread.

It’s called hyperbole, but it’s obvious why a lot of people here are upset.

We supposedly incinerated the 19th pick. lol Some people wanted us to add as many mediocre 19 year old role players as possible now (then would have complained if they missed out on better players after the fact) instead of saving a 1st round pick for later use as a trade asset or to draft in a potentially stronger draft.

We signed a bunch of good basketball players to fair contracts but we didn’t get the players THEY wanted that were younger, better, but would have cost a lot more than fair price if we tried to outbid the team they chose to go to. The last part totally is ignored but would have caused a massive inferno if we actually overpaid to do it.

Deep down inside they wish we were still tanking.

Don’t even argue it. Nothing will satisfy some people here except tanking or stealing. If they don’t tank and there are not opportunities to steal, the managements sucks. lol

I’m disappointed we couldn’t move up in the draft or sign someone young and good to play starting PG, but I’m happy they didn’t do anything panicky or dumb when the prices were too high or the opportunities not there. Plus, we may not be done. We have cap space and trade assets. If we don’t use them this week, then maybe later in the season.

Don’t even argue it. Nothing will satisfy some people here except tanking or stealing. If they don’t tank and there are not opportunities to steal, the managements sucks. lol

Who?

Who advocated tanking in this offseason? Name one person. You’re embarrassing yourself.

“aren’t you upset we passed on Hayward last offseason?”

Hasn’t Hayward missed 20 games each of the last two seasons? And the season before that he was an embarrassing shell of himself and the season before he was injured and out for the whole year after the first quarter of the first game.

As for the Knicks, it’s easy to imagine them doing something better but I think there’s some value in them just repeating the not-entirely-awful performance the front office turned in last season. Baby steps.

Mike

Rose, Burks and Noel are not mediocre. Neither is Fournier. If our 19th pick turned into a player as good as any of those 4, that would be considered a wildly successful 19th pick.

The disrespect our own players are getting from people on this blog is crazy. These dudes played their asses off every night and gave us a super enjoyable season and we’re just getting started. Yet people want Devonte Graham because why exactly? I mean, he’s a nice player but has he ever played for a WINNING basketball team? Same with Ball (who I wanted?) Again, you all just want the shiny new toy and can’t appreciate what you already have. A lot of the dues you pine after you pine after them bc of their age or potential when they actually haven’t been on winning teams ever. Graham, Ball, etc. I would have been down for some of them too but lets be real. Everyone said Noel and Burks were goners before free agency bc of how well they played last year. But now that they’re back, they’re average. So much disrespect!!!

These dudes played their asses off every night and gave us a super enjoyable season and we’re just getting started. Yet people want Devonte Graham because why exactly? I mean, he’s a nice player but has he ever played for a WINNING basketball team?

brian can you fix the site my phone is read all of swift’s posts in the voice of matt foley

Don’t understand why most dismiss the notion that IQ is ready to play PG full time on a playoff team. He earned the right to play bunch more last season but Thibs was stubbornly royal to Elf. He now has Fournier and Randle who can create efficiently on their own and a rising RJ. IQ is smart, plays at his own pace and has a strong work ethic. He’s game is very similar to Trey Young with floaters and unlimited range while drawing fouls and making free throws. Plus he can easily throw the lob to Mitch because his PnR is initiated higher out due to his range. He’s ceiling is much higher that Schroeder, Dinwiddie or Sexton. Let the kid play. He’s earned it.

Look, I’ll say it again: our lack of a PG was a glaring weakness that was not fixed. We still have that serious weakness. We have Derrick Rose, who is really best suited to come off the bench, and a rookie who may be a couple of years away.

We may find another bench-caliber PG on the scrap heap but we don’t have that good quality starter, instead prioritizing role players who are best suited to coming off the bench.

We got a starter and three bench players for $50M, and didn’t fix the most pressing problem. That’s my #1 issue with the way this team is constructed and it’s why we’re not likely to be substantially better. We could be *marginally* better but the idea is generally to fix your weaknesses.

thenoblefacehumper,

1. We needed a C because Mitch is not fully recovered yet and we don’t know how healthy he’s going to be. We had to sign someone. Noel is very good in his role. If we went cheaper, we’d be taking a step backwards which they don’t want to do. So Noel is fine.

2. I’m not so sure how much we needed Burks given we signed Fournier and they are similar, but I think the deal was fair. Burks solidifies the bench, can start in a pinch without losing much, can take over PG duties if there are injuries etc.. He’s a good player.

3. I liked Ball as a possible PG option (as did several other people), but I don’t know if management liked Ball. They may not think he’s a PG solution even if they liked him as a player. Others here feel that way. Also, I’m not sure I would have liked him at the price we would have had to pay to beat out Chicago (which might have also involved trading other assets). So if you are asking if I’d rather have Ball than Noel and Burks, IT DEPENDS on the price for Ball and how much of downgrade we took at C to replace Noel, but I’m fine with Noel and Burks.

4. I didn’t like the Rose deal based on initial reports, but now I see we don’t know what the final details are or if we are done making moves at PG.

What you have to understand is that they are trying to get better in the short term and long term. They are not trying to maximize 2028. They aren’t going to take a step backwards in 2021 for some theoretical gain several years out. At most they are looking a year or two out.

The bottom line for this year was that you can’t move up in the draft if the price is too high and you can’t sign players that don’t want to come here or that you have to wildly overpay to get here. You do the best you can that’s consistent with getting better now and keeping long term option sopen.

If you don’t like that plan, so be it. You won’t like anything we are doing (or that Riley has been doing…

Look, I’ll say it again: our lack of a PG was a glaring weakness that was not fixed. We still have that serious weakness. We have Derrick Rose, who is really best suited to come off the bench,

I’m sure they know that too, but apparently they didn’t want to overpay for Ball or give a long and very expensive contract to one of the very old better PGs. Payne wanted to stay with the Suns (for obvious reasons). Had they overpaid or given a long expensive contract to a very old PG to get him here, people would be just as furious.

Some from here they have some money left, picks, and a couple of players they can use to try to address the starting PG situation now. If no one is available at a price they can pay now, it will be PG by committee again until they have an opportunity to make a move later.

George Hill is out there now. His 2019-20 numbers were surprisingly good. Maybe he still has something left in the tank?

djphan: how good do you think they’ll be next year? and are you going to take my 2-1 bet on a repeat of the 4th seed?

First of all, free agency and trades are not even done yet and I haven’t seen our rookies play a single minute of basketball yet. I don’t scout college. The Knicks get paid to do that.

My impression based on last year is that teams like Miami and Boston are probably going to leapfrog us because they were better than us last year but finished behind due to injuries, Covid and other issues.

Teams like CHI and CHA were better than they looked last year for similar reasons and may have improved more so far, but we have to see how that plays out,

ATL is flat out better than us and I said that before they blew us out in the playoffs.

It’s going to be tough to get the 4th seed again because the east will be better, but I think we have a better team and I am expecting a few players to improve also. It all depends on how much they improve and what else we do from here .

Thank. The. Lord.

@wojespn
Free agent F Carmelo Anthony has agreed to a one-year deal with the Los Angeles Lakers, his manager Bay Frazier tells ESPN.

First of all, free agency and trades are not even done yet and I haven’t seen our rookies play a single minute of basketball yet. I don’t scout college. The Knicks get paid to do that.

it all kind of sounds so wishy washy after boldly proclaiming that we won’t be taking a step back when you’re trying to qualify everything you’re saying that we probably will take a step back even with all these bold changes…

which one is it? or are we going to be ‘better’ than last year’s team and still miss the playoffs or get stuck in the 8th seed? is this kind of how you’re going to justify this post hoc?

if derrick rose gets hurt and miss the playoffs… are you factoring that in at all or do you think we should assume he stays healthy throughout and that it will be chalked up to bad luck?

are we going to compete at all with atlanta again or are we going to get swept because we can’t keep up?

Dodged the Melo bullet. That’s something!

Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats: 6. I hate to say this..but if we had this projected lineup last season..Elfrid would have been ok at PG

You had some interesting takes, Totes, but when I got to this one all the others vanished like a Thanos finger snap.

I was briefly pissed when I saw that Mills signed with Brooklyn for 2/12, but that looks like him taking a discount to ring chase with the Nets.

Alan:
This, on the other hand, is intriguing.

I think that Nunn might be our guy.

Nunn could definitely help salvage things.

What you have to understand is that they are trying to get better in the short term and long term. They are not trying to maximize 2028. They aren’t going to take a step backwards in 2021 for some theoretical gain several years out. At most they are looking a year or two out.

It was actually my preferred strategy to maximize space for the 2022 offseason, while the new regime and/or it’s defenders are now prattling on about 2024, so you can cut this nonsense out.

Here is the point you aren’t responding to, because you can’t: even if the goal was to chase every last 2021-2022 win, this was not even close to the best way to do it.

How much better are Noel, Rose, and Burks than, say, Drummond, Monk, and Payne with an additional $15M to spend this offseason and much more flexibility going forward? Before you jump down my throat about those guys not accepting our offers, I factored in huge raises for all of them ($10M AAV for Payne, 1/$5M for the other two). You can substitute other names like Bryn Forbes, Patty Mills, Robin Lopez, etc.

Noel, Rose, and Burks are just not particularly special players, which is why we were able to initially acquire them for so little. Successful teams find players who can provide their average-ish production without having to cut into much of any of the money they use on guys who really swing the standings.

Instead, we’re paying ~$35M AAV for guys who are essentially innings eaters while we continue to have no aces, and in doing so have made the path to acquiring such aces that much harder. Make no mistake–a trade for a superstar is now more difficult than it was before. The Blazers, Wizards, etc. do not want Alec Burks and Nerlens Noel, so a hypothetical trade requires us to pay for the target player and pay another team (either the Blazers/Wizards or whoever else) to take the contracts.

Nunn and Rose in the same backcourt? Let’s bring back Dotson, trade for Terence Davis and maybe bring Josh Jackson in, too. Hell of a culture we’ve got here.

Art, artist. Separate them. It’s doable, I promise. It’s the only way really to be a fan, otherwise the whole thing collapses under the weight of the contradictions. If one can watch Chinatown or Bitter Moon, as one obviously can, one can watch Derrick Rose and Kendrick Nunn play basketball.

Hitler was pretty ok at landscapes I guess

Mein Kampf is still on sale at Amazon and has been available at fine bookstores throughout the free world for decades.

Not sure I’ve seen them, in fact I’m sure I haven’t, but reputationally anyway, Hitler’s landscapes were terrible. Would have been better for the world if they were better, lest he wind up using Europe itself to play out his aesthetic yearnings.

It really was. We went after Hayward and he turned us down.

Which we were happy about at the time, but Hayward and draft picks/minimums is a better way to tie up space until 2024 than Rose/Burks/Noel.

Doesn’t look like Nunn has made amends for the assault he committed, outside of serving his sentence. I don’t want him.

DeRozan to the Bulls for 3/85.

Wild.

Edit: the Bulls also traded Thad Young, a future first, a two future seconds for him.

Things could always be worse!

I didn’t like any of the signings – would have been OK with Burks if we didn’t also sign Fournier, wtf – but voted for Noel because I think Mitch may have ongoing injury issues. Noel is worth that money and we’ll likely need him.

Least liked signing Rose, for all the reasons

the bulls are weirding it up.

suns reporters are saying cp3 deal has $15m non guaranteed in yr 3 and all of yr 4 nonguaranteed. weren’t there stories yesterday that we only lost him bc suns could offer a 4th yr?

Wow and they send a first, 2 seconds, and Thad young to SA? On top of close to 30 mil a year? That’s ridiculous.

That Bulls team is pretty weird

fwiw Mitch’s trainer says he is on longer in a walking boot

Lavine is trying to get a max this season so all indications are that he is resigning….

i’m not sure about Derozan but the team is infinitely better off than they were since the start of last season… they got talent and it’s a matter of how that talent works together…. from where they were this is a much better track because you do have to take risks from where they are if they wanted to compete….

i probably would have taken Derozan at his money over Fournier and Burks/Noel…. and a Ball/Derozan backcourt has some issues but so does Rose and Fournier also… i’m not sure if Derozan was the best guy to go after this summer but he’s good.. and if the goal is winning the next few years you could do a lot worse than getting the most talented guy in free agency… and we actually did do a lot worse..

Are we better than the Bulls? Please tell me we are better than the Bulls.

Always loved Thad Young. And disliked Derozan, although my feelings have softened lately. Going to be a very interesting experiment in Chi-Town.

Once the Bulls made the Vuc trade they were all in. I thought that was stupid and said so at the time, but if once you recognize that I don’t think their offseason was bad. They got a lot better, and should be able to compete for a top-5 seed (assuming BKN/PHI/MIL/MIA all stay healthy).

Their defense will probably be awful and even offensively they have a lot to work out, but the talent is there. They’ll probably win more games than us for the next few years.

and yes we could look at the bulls as a barometer as one possibility that could’ve occurred for our offseason… if they put up a better record than us this year it will be embarrassing….

From a cap perspective, the Rose deal doesn’t affect much due to bird rights. Once we brought in several multi-year contracts the exact number didn’t matter much as long as we were within his bird rights.

You can contest the plan of bringing in the multi-year contracts to begin with or, like me, take issue with Rose the person. But the contract complaints are overblown.

DeRozan shot exactly 25.7% from three the past two seasons. You can’t play him, Randle, and Noel/Mitch at the same time. It’d wreck the spacing unless you believe his playmaking can compensate.

I too can list a bunch of names like its NBA2K and claim that team is better than The Knicks.

Where is the defense on that bulls squad?

Wasn’t Raul Neto being talked about at one point?

**Fournier: 4/$78M ($19.5M AAV)
Ball: 4/$90M ($22.5M AAV)
Payne: 3/$24M ($8M AAV)
Isaiah Jackson ($2.7M cap hold)
Quentin Grimes ($2.1M cap hold)
Malik Monk Room Exception
Robin Lopez minimum
Taj Gibson minimum**

If you get Ball you need to give up a 1st rd pick or some other asset to clear NOP’s match rights, likely a vet as they want to win now.

Some people threw around $10-12M for Payne and he still went back to PHX

You don’t have a proven backup for the SF spot

You’re missing a lot of defense without Noel, if Mitch goes down we may not make the playoffs

I don’t love Jackson at pick 19

Malik Monk is a good pickup & there nice upside from Ball

E, all merc’d out:
The Bulls owe Orlando a 1 (top 4 protected) in two or three years, and now owe SA a 1, but otherwise have all their 1s.They’re probably Stepiened from trading next year’s 1 to SA, since they’ll likely convey their ’23 to ORL, so they have their own next year.

You conveniently left out they had no 1 this year either

brian can you fix the site my phone is reading all of swift’s posts in the voice of matt foley

too late, was scanning quickly through the thread and accidently read: mick foley…for now and ever more, whenever i read a swift post – it’ll be mankind speaking…

If you get Ball you need to give up a 1st rd pick or some other asset to clear NOP’s match rights, likely a vet as they want to win now.

Chicago had to give up something to get New Orleans to pass on matching right away, but if you upped Ball to $100 million, would New Orleans really match on a guy they seem to clearly not want back? It’s not like they got some huge return on not matching. Sato, Temple and a second isn’t much better than just what you could get on the open market by trying to sign, say, TJ McConnell.

**pg: Delon Wright
sg: Lonzo Ball/Derozan/Fournier take your pick
Alex Caruso 4/38 off the bench**

Delon Wright was acquired via trade, not FA

Ball requires giving up something of value to NOP

You can’t afford Caruso after paying DeRozan & Ball

Yeah, the final years not being guaranteed is certainly an improvement. It also makes “We’re planning for 2024” appear like even more BS.

Shams tweeted Nunn turned down more money from the Knicks to go to the Lakers for basically 1 yr since 2nd yr is a player option.

Feel a lot better about those signings with those team options

Delon Wright was acquired via trade, not FA

for Kris Dunn… yes we could have offered anything to get him…

Ball requires giving up something of value to NOP

a first rd pick? considering we don’t like those kinds of things round here.. why the hell not?

You can’t afford Caruso after paying DeRozan & Ball

that was in the delon wright/ random sg section…

DeRozan is basically a sign of the modern NBA. He went from being an overrated shooting guard to an underrated power forward.

Taj is back – jinx…

Yeah, the final years not being guaranteed is certainly an improvement. It also makes “We’re planning for 2024” appear like even more BS.

Agreed Brian never believed that rumor. They are gonna try a big move far before then.

GTFOH to anybody praising the Derozan signing by the Bulls, if the Knicks would’ve signed him to that contract everybody here would’ve been up in arms and rightfully so. He would’ve been an awful fit here, I’d much rather have Fournier.

DeRozan is a much better player than Fournier, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to praise his signing. That said, I agree, I don’t think DeRozan fit on the Knicks well because of the overlap with Randle. In other words, praising the Bulls makes sense without it having to have made sense for the Knicks to sign him.

According to SNY, the Rose deal was done with the Early Bird exception, so the Knicks still have cap left.

ish smith or reggie jackson anyone?

we gotta trade with someone – maybe brunson from the mavs, kevin and the charlotte pick…

According to SNY, the Rose deal was done with the Early Bird exception, so the Knicks still have cap left.

What’s weird is how was that ever in question? Like, shouldn’t that have been an obvious move this whole time (to use the Early Bird to get Rose)?

Brian Cronin: DeRozan is a much better player than Fournier, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to praise his signing. That said, I agree, I don’t think DeRozan fit on the Knicks well because of the overlap with Randle.

I agree and I would add that DeRozan wasn’t a great fit on this team because he can’t shoot 3’s and that’s something the team needed with RJ at the other wing.

Would be happy with Reggie for a few years

Possibly, but then you’re trading away pick 19 to fit him under the cap.

Well, I have some news about what we did with that pick anyway.

The non-guarantees are obviously very good news, though I’m still pretty confused because it seemed like protecting flexibility for 2022 was the plan so unless the 2nd years are also non-guaranteed that’s still out the window. By the time we hit 2023, Randle and/or will be extended so it’s not clear how much good this even does.

Still, better!

Reading more into it, I think the Rose stuff is seriously just NBA reporters being morons and not knowing how the Early Bird works and that the Rose deal was always going to be done through the Early Bird. Like Berman tweeting that Rose could only be an Early Bird signing if, “This is only true if Derrick Rose signs for 10.3M. He’s agreed to a lot more. Nullifies early bird. This is from Bobby Marks.” That’s just obviously incorrect. Rose could get a first year of up to $13.5 million under the Early Bird, which is pretty much exactly what he is getting, so I think that this was just shitty reporting rather than any actual controversy over Rose not being signed with the Early Bird.

I’m trying to figure out what the cap situation will be in 2023 when we can renounce these guys. I’m guessing the Knicks will have a maxed-out Randle, RJ on a 2nd contract, Fournier making approx $20mil and whatever rookies are under contract. That’s gotta be at least $80mil in cap room right there.

I guess they’ll have space for another max? It doesn’t seem to be a great spot to be in, cap-wise, 2 years from now.

Is Burks going to take the MLE once they’re over the cap and does that free up his money? It could be that there’s a way to “order” this even better, but I don’t know all the arcana of the cap as I once did and I’m probably not accounting for holds properly.

Knicks have already renounced being over the cap, I assume, and cannot use the MLE. Even so, it would replace the $8M or so they have left & the $5M room exception. So it’s not necessarily better.

Is Burks going to take the MLE once they’re over the cap and does that free up his money? It could be that there’s a way to “order” this even better, but I don’t know all the arcana of the cap as I once did.

The Fournier signing prevented them from acting as an over the cap team. In order to get the cap space to sign him, they had to give up the MLE.

I guess they’ll have space for another max? It doesn’t seem to be a great spot to be in, cap-wise, 2 years from now

that’s why it’s kind of stupid…. the idea was to jam as much talent under the cap before RJ’s extension and before Randle’s extension…. we had these two summers to do it…

once their extensions kick in you lose whatever opportunity you had to begin with…. it’s basically treading water… maybe we can stretch or get rid of fournier to clear more room but there were better ways to get there without having to do this…

I’d wait on projecting cap space for future years until we get the actual specifics for the deals. It may be a partial guarantee which also affects cap room.

$5 million sounds about right for Reggie Jackson’s market, right?

In theory Noel, Burks, & Fournier could be ascending deals and save a bit more room. Not sure what the math works out to, also not sure they’d be happy accepting their non-guaranteed 3rd yr as the most expensive.

So they might have a bit more, but yeah reporters are probably not counting Vildoza.

Then again reports said we offered more than the Lakers for Nunn, so idk…

Well, $5.5 million would be more than $5 million. 😉

But yeah, if they’re three-year deals with the third year non-guaranteed, it’d be hard to imagine that the deals would be ascending.

Heard we signed Taj for 2.7 mill

Just in case any NBA reporters are reading, an NBA vet minimum deal allows a team to sign a player, like Taj, with their minimum roster space (roughly $925,000) and then the league itself will pay Taj the additional $1.8 million dollars out of the league escrow. This is done so that players like Taj won’t be penalized for having a higher minimum salary than younger players. You’re always allowed to exceed the cap to give out minimum contracts.

Aha, I now know where the extra money is coming from. The Knicks had $2.775 million in minimum contracts required for their roster holds (you have to have cap holds for 12 spots). Once you sign a guy into those spots, it replaces the minimum, and so that minimum goes back into your cap space.

For instance, the Knicks had $2.775 million for three minimum spots. Those minimum spots were replaced by Fournier, Burks and Noel at $38.5 million. So then that means that the minimum cap holds are freed up, giving the Knicks $2.775 million to spend. So that’s how the Knicks can free up roughly $8.25 million to offer a free agent like Nunn.

@BC,

Nice!!!

Clyde’s dream is dead! NOOO!!!!

@ShamsCharania
Free agent guard Ish Smith has agreed to a one-year deal with the Charlotte Hornets, sources tell
@TheAthletic.

Ish to Charlotte, as they don’t have enough point guards.

Brian, a Clippers fan friend of mine says they can offer him 4/47, which is more than we can unless, I guess, we cut Vildoza, and send Kevin Knox to LA in a sign-and-trade.

Brian, a Clippers fan friend of mine says they can offer him 4/47, which is more than we can unless, I guess, we cut Vildoza, and send Kevin Knox to LA in a sign-and-trade.

My confusion, Alan, is that I didn’t know Jackson had Early Bird Rights with the Clippers. They can offer him a little more than the MLE, then, which is more than the Knicks can offer, so yeah, Reggie ain’t going nowhere.

The only way the Burks contract makes sense is if we consider IQ a PG. If we don’t, we literally signed Burks to fill exactly the same role that we hope IQ fills. If Fournier and Barrett each play around 35 minutes a game that leaves 26 minutes backing both of them up. Those 26 minutes are going to be fought over by Burks, IQ, Grimes, and maybe Vildoza. If IQ is not a PG then I don’t see him getting more than spot minutes because I doubt we are investing $30 million in Burks to play 10 minutes a game.

I feel the same way about the Noel contract. Robinson obviously is our starter and will hopefully play 30+ minutes a game so that leaves around 15-20 minutes for our backup center. We also have Toppin a high lottery pick who was coming on at the end of the season and had a great playoff. Toppin is stuck behind Randle so he is limited to 10-15 minutes at the PF spot. The only way for Toppin to take a step forward is for him to play next to Randle and since we didn’t invest $32 million in Noel to barely play Toppin has no room to develop next to Randle.

After these moves, our upside lies with Barrett, Robinson, IQ, Toppin, and the rookies. There is no upside with any of our signings. Unfortunately, these signings not only fail to provide upside they also severely limit the runway for IQ, Toppin, and the rookies to play major enough roles to be able to reach their upside.

This is a bit better at least in regards to IQ if he is the starting PG but I don’t think that’s the plan so where does he fit in now with Burks and Fournier? Can we even fit him in the rotation with anything more than spot minutes?

It’s setting up for the inevitable: Dennis Schroeder Knicks starting PG. That contract if it happens will certainly be interesting to see how that would happen.

People worried about rotation minutes for IQ, there will be plenty of games where guys will be injured.

People harp on acquiring too many mediocre players but fact is having a bunch of mediocre players is actually a very good thing and was a huge reason for the Knicks last season exceeding expectations. Having enough decent players to keep the scrubs like Frank and Knox out of the rotation was huge. Assuming the Knicks acquire a decent PG they will go 11 deep just like last year without taking into consideration anything the rookies might be able to contribute.

I think the Clippers are in lux tax post-Kawhi re-signing? So they may pass on offering Reggie the full salary.

**It’s funny, Early Bird, you just beat me to a thought I was just worrying about, “What if Thibs just thinks that IQ simply isn’t that good?” He sure didn’t seem to be enamored with him in the playoffs. If the Knicks sign a decent point guard, I really do wonder whether IQ gets super-squeezed, as already it looks like Grimes and McBride don’t have a whole lot of avenues for playing time with the current squad.**

I’m pretty torn between wanting a solid PG as the de facto Rose backup and knowing Luca & McBride, and potentially IQ, won’t get playing time if we do. Thibs gonna Thibs.

I think the Clippers are in lux tax post-Kawhi re-signing? So they may pass on offering Reggie the full salary.

I don’t think Ballmer will have a problem paying for that.

Is it wrong for me to low key root for the Lakers next season?

Unless of course we make it to the Finals..then FFFFAWK DEM LAKERS!

LOL

Don’t shoot the messenger but Schroeder had 4 consecutive seasons of 7+ assists and gets to the free throw line at a decent rate. He also can score the ball. Would he be that terrible?

that’d mean a year of having to look at his gremlin mug…oops, can’t really hold someone’s appearance against them – or can you…

It is truly damning when our best-case scenario – Toppin and IQ improving on their rookie seasons and Robinson being healthy would mean that Noel and Burks would get pushed out of the rotation completely. It is pretty bad that we invested $62 million in players that if everything goes well won’t even play.

The problem is their mere existence on the roster with those contracts makes that hope impossible and removes one of our clear paths to improvement.

You sign vets to short or cheap contracts if they are mere injury/young player regression insurance. You don’t sign them to big money as insurance.

The issue with Schroder, as far as I can tell, is this: There’s no version of him so far that has put it all together into a complete PG. In his ATL years he was a much better distributor from the pure point role but was way below league average TS%; he seemed to then focus on making his own shot more and his assist rate plummeted. He’s good but not great at getting to the line, and with the inconsistency of his three point shot he’s not really a floor-spacing threat. The one year he approximated league average TS in OKC was a good one for him, but even then, he did not impress at tradtional point-guardy things (he didn’t even manage a 2:1 A/TO…more like 1.5/1). He’s also not a good defender, really. If he could manage to simultaneously shoot at 57 TS% and average over 7 assists, he’d be a player I’d be genuinely happy to have, but as it stands he’s a pretty imperfect solution to our PG needs–I think even less of a solution than Sexton or Nunn would be, who have more proven scoring chops.

But maybe the only question that needs answering is: “is he an improvement over Elf as starting PG?” And the answer to that is unquestionably yes, so I couldn’t be too mad if we signed him for a reasonable amount.

Why are Nunn and Monk turning down more money to ring chase? Nunn has made $3m total in the NBA. Doesn’t make sense that he would turn down a higher offer from us.

The Lakers make dumb moves and players just throw themselves at their feet. We make dumb moves and no one wants to play here.

TheOakmanCometh:
Why are Nunn and Monk turning down more money to ring chase? Nunn has made $3m total in the NBA. Doesn’t make sense that he would turn down a higher offer from us.

The Lakers make dumb moves and players just throw themselves at their feet. We make dumb moves and no one wants to play here.

I think that the implication was that we were offering him a multiyear deal with no player option, and the Lakers offered him a player option, which allows him to bet on himself and cash out a year or two earlier than what he would’ve gotten with us. Not a bad idea if you think you’re gonna be a key piece on a championship (?) team, which he might be off the bench.

I would have rather had Schroder than Rose but would have still been pretty unhappy about it. But could have probably convinced myself it was okay. But there’s no way I want both.

At this point based on what’s left on the market, I say we just roll the dice starting IQ and having McBride and Vildoza as insurance for Rose. It also gives the opportunity for McBride or Vildoza to step up and maybe win some minutes as well.

BigBlueAL:
Ian Begley reporting Bullock to Dallas could be a sign and trade so if that’s the case interesting to see what the Knicks can get from Dallas.

Would a sign and trade of Bullock + Dallas or Charlotte’s first back be enough to net Brunson, or is he too important to the Mavs to give up despite having to be paid after this year?

Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada: Who said it was gonna be us and Schroder as the last people unpartnered at the dance?

It was me, so now if that happens… Max will hate me forever! 😛

Derrick Rose hasn’t played 2000 minutes in a season since the last time he was in a knick jersey in 2016… if this whole thing hinges on him staying upright for the whole season then that was probably a pretty shitty plan to begin with… but if you’re going with that then you should probably build in contingencies..

even if those contingencies involve Schroder… this is the bed we made and so we have to sleep in it…

I’d be down with Shane Larkin.

Shane Larkin would solve a lot of problems and probably be a move that actually helps the team move the needle. It would be great.

We would still have a logjam for minutes but at least we’d have a starting quality pg.

Get him and make all the contracts have non-guaranteed third years and everything looks a lot rosier.

K I feel better if there are non-guarantees on the third year for everyone. It moves the whole offseason from like a C to a B-. Wonder if they can do anything nifty with their remaining cap

He’s not perfect, but I’m fine with Schroder at Day 2/3 prices.

Shane Larkin is 5’4”. It’s not happening.

Pass on Schroeder and all the other Charlie Brown characters

If we’re out of options, why not try what Ben is clamoring for so long? Shane Larkin, anyone?

Shane Larkin is not in Leon’s Rolodex

George Hill back to the bucks…

these options suck and i get really mad thinking how little atlanta paid for Delon Wright.. crazy!

**Shane Larkin is not in Leon’s Rolodex**

I guess Worldwide Wes is exaggerating a bit in his name

**Do the Celtics even have a plan for this offseason? If so, anyone know what it is?**

Supposedly clearing space for 2022

Brian Cronin:
Do the Celtics even have a plan for this offseason? If so, anyone know what it is?

We need DRed to chime in about how his boy Brad Stevens is doing in his first off-season as team president.

Z-man:
Pass on Schroeder and all the other Charlie Brown characters

I’d take snoopy tho

Supposedly clearing space for 2022

It’s so weird, when they have Tatum and Brown now. They have two All-Star wings and they’re just sort of punting on 2021.

I bet Boston will get a couple nice players off of the FA scrap heap once the crazy money is all spent. I actually think that is the best way to “win” at free agency anyway.

what made this past year’s team good was that he underpaid a bunch of players.

what made last year so good was winning more games than we lost, and, the playoff seed…

I don’t see it here so I’ll report it. We’ve been saved!

Elfrid Payton to Miami.

**I don’t see it here so I’ll report it. We’ve been saved!

Elfrid Payton to Miami.**

Off-season now an A++

If we did like some suggested and picked Isaiah Jackson at #19, wouldn’t that have triggered two camps of dissention? 1) The “There we go prioritizing Kentucky guys again!” crowd, and 2) the “Why the hell did we waste our highest pick on a raw rim protector when those guys are always available with lower picks or on the cheap in free agency? ” crowd.

I said I’d be more or less fine with picking Jackson as long as we shored up guard/wing depth with the other picks, even if he wouldn’t have been my pick. It’s not the absolute best use of resources, but it’s better than using a $11M AAV slot on a center.

As for him being worse, that would probably be the case to start but with the money saved you could get better in other ways e.g. signing Lonzo Ball (the S&T compensation for him was nominal, we easily could’ve pulled it off), and his upside is higher. It’d be a win-win.

Also, I fully agree with the consensus that Noel was a huge piece for us last year, but it’s a bit odd to see people saying our entire defense completely would’ve fallen apart if we lost a guy who played 1,547 minutes for us last season. That math doesn’t really check out.

Payton to Miami.

did someone actually says this or are you just willing it

Lifting the protection on the ’23 1 would be nice to get from DAL.

This would actually be nothing but a favor to them, as it would free them up from a Stepien perspective and wouldn’t do anything for us (since as long as Luka Doncic can walk, they ain’t finishing in the bottom 10).

And it must be worth something to them, or they’d just do it unilaterally.

They can’t do that

Some here are forgetting how good Mitch is.

alder almo:
Mitchell Robinson finished fourth among centers in defensive win shares (0.114) behind Rudy Gobert (0.181), Joel Embiid (0.135), and Anthony Davis (0.125) last season.
https://twitter.com/alderalmo/status/1422302499105542146

I like Noel, but he is Mitch’s backup, as simple as that.

I don’t particularly like Schroeder, but if we get him for not much money he’s a roughly league average PG.

Raven: You had some interesting takes, Totes, but when I got to this one all the others vanished like a Thanos finger snap.

I kind of agree with Totes. It’s not that Peyton was good, but it’s not like the team suddenly got better results when he stopped playing against Atlanta. Better offense would have helped him.

ptmilo:
Payton to Miami.

did someone actually says this or are you just willing it

I saw this:

Former Knicks guard Elfrid Payton is finalizing a deal with the Miami Heat, agent Aaron Mintz of
@CAA_Basketball tells ESPN.

But now I’m starting to think that someone was trolling Heat fans.

Sorry. I got excited 🙁

Z-man: If Mitch is better than him, it ain’t by much.

If the game had only one side, i would agree with you. But there’s also offense.
And just so you know, the Knicks sent him a trainer and called it “mission DPOY”. I don’t think i ever heard Noel and DPOY on the same sentence. You remember Mitch’s age, right? He’s improving, Noel is a finished product now.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: D-LEBRON

I don’t trust this new LEBRON stat, Jowles, and Poeltl ahead of Mitch kind of proves it. DRPM looked about right, Brook Lopez played very good defense this year. I thought Turner would also be ahead of Mitch, he might be close.

Mitch can leave next year if he wants. We can offer Mitch a lot of money, but ultimately it’s up to him/a ridiculous offer from another team.

Noel is good to have in case Mitch does leave. Maybe Sims is something.

Hubert: I’m confused. You’re talking about Mitch? This sounds more like Noel.

Yeah, I think he means Noel…Mitch at least has really good hands.

I think the “workmanlike” adjective is more appropos by the minute. Inspired? Bold? Thirst-quenching? Nah.

geo: what made last year so good was winning more games than we lost, and, the playoff seed…

which was a consequence of having underpaid players and so being able to afford more talent.

The Knicks success was based on Randle and Derrick Rose substantially exceeding expectations during the second half of the season. They did not take full advantage of having Burks/Bullock/Mitch/Noel on cheap deals, because they did not use the full salary cap. They left around $8M untouched, even with spending on Vildoza and Pelle.

JK47:
The team options on the three bench guys are welcome news. That third year of Derrick Rose was gonna be rough.

It still doesn’t feel like we really truly upgraded anywhere, and we’re still lacking a starting PG. Obviously we’re going to need Randle not to regress and for RJ to take another leap if we’re going to improve on last season’s team.

I’m not bummed about watching this team next year, because I liked them last year. I do think a PG could have been had if that was the priority. I’m not really sure how we fix that problem and break on through to the next level from here.

My guess is that they could go out and get Sexton if they really want him, it just might cost a bit. But why not wait until at least summer league to get a peek at what we have? Other teams might be peeking at what they have and some guys may shake loose.

And Rose wasn’t acquired until well into the season. We have the assets to aggressively go after guys before or at the deadline. Teams are going to have some serious cap issues and are going to need to wheel and deal to be competitive.

And I hope there is some backtracking on the “This FO is as bad as the old FOs” narrative. We have a competitive roster, vets on market value deals give or take, plenty of young guys in the rotation and 11-17, cap flexibility, and a trove of future picks. We DON’T have albatrosses, primadonnas, nonsensical lottery busts, or creepy, cryptic tweets from the POBO. It’s not perfect, but certainly not same ol’ same ol’.

Poeltl is a top 5 rim protector in the league now. He just can’t shoot free throws at all.

I think part of what made last season so enjoyable was the feeling that it could be the start of something. With so much possibility being removed, I fear it may be less enjoyable next year.

okay then, i can kinda guess where this is pivoting to now for some folks…i’m just gonna copy and paste: what made last year so good was winning more games than we lost, and, the playoff seed…

glaring hole at the starting point guard position aside, i’m gonna look forward to more winning than losing come next season…sort of like our front office strategy, just taking it day by day…

seriously though – what was the plan:
a). try to sign chris paul
b). try to sign kris nunn
c). no plan

*** It’s kinda unfair to criticize a FO for bade [sic] deals that they didn’t make.***

It’s kinda unfair to criticize any decisions that we weren’t in the room for, but we all do it because we are losers. Sorry.

The options on the third years take this offseason from tragic to very underwelming. I’m a lot less upset about the Burks and Noel deals even though I still feel we could get 90% of their production from our young players and vet minimum deals that will be available in a week or so. I am still very sad to be bringing back Rose I was really hoping he would be gone. I am also worried about our PG situation, which I do not think we really addressed. I am hopeful IQ can start and do a good job but that’s a lot riding on him and he might not even be a PG.

I am a huge fan of Noel and pushed for him for years and was ecstatic when we signed him last year but he is not Mitchell Robinson. They are both elite rim-protecting centers but Mitch is so much better offensively and doesn’t get pushed around as much by bigger centers. Also, Mitch could still get better, he looks like he has a decent amount of growth potential, Noel is what he is. A big part of our upside is Mitch’s potential and extending him needs to be a priority.

As for Mitch being injury-prone that’s just not true. He had a couple fluky injuries this year with the broken hand and broken foot but overall he has been durable. He had a pretty bad ankle sprain his rookie year that kept him out of 13 games but was healthy the rest of the year, was healthy his entire 2nd year, and then had the two unfortunate injuries this year, that seemed a lot more like bad luck than fragileness. Noel has been a lot more fragile over his career than Mitch.

I’m not seeing a ton of flexibility. The market value veterans have pretty limited value as trade chips, and we kinda need to keep the young guys if we’re hoping to have a better record because the kids improved.

We have the devalued Charlotte 1RP, the Dallas 2023 1RP that figures to be a low pick, plus our own picks, which hopefully will not be lottery picks. Assuming RJ is untouchable we have Quickley, Obi, and this year’s two rookies as trade chips and it seems like we kinda need to hang onto Quickley.

I don’t see a lot of pieces that can be packaged to pick up a starting PG, for instance, without giving up the kids who we think might improve. The option years on the mercs help a little bit with flexibility, but not a whole lot.

JK47: Well, honestly, I feel this too. It’s probably not going to be quite as enjoyable. We’re not really on our way to the destination anymore, we’re AT the destination. There’s a hard ceiling with this group, and some of the moves are redundant as others have pointed out. It’s not hard to imagine a regression for a number of reasons, and it’s equally hard to imagine this team making a deep playoff run.

We’re going to wish we had fixed the PG position instead of investing those resources in premium bench pieces.

There indeed is a relatively hard ceiling on this group, but a) it’s pretty high and b) we’re in year two of a rebuild from the worst shithole team in the league. So that’s progress.

The question is, what’s next? Well no one here knows, but if one continues to zero in on the trade-out of the #19 pick as a portent of doom, and the standard of success is a deep playoff run in year 2 after the debacle thaat was inherited by this FO, then yeah, this season will probably be a letdown. Most likely we’re looking at an exit in either the play-in or the first round.

But I liked last year’s team a lot, even beyond the results. The Thibs platitudes rang true…they played hard, they played for each other, the sum was greater than the parts. They had fans dancing in the streets and blocking traffic. They outplayed the Nets on the court of public opinion. Will that get old? Yes, but there’s so many possibilities that it won’t because we’re not burdened with albatrosses or hard capped or out of movable draft picks. In that sense, I don’t see a hard ceiling at all in terms of where things will end up, either this year or beyond.

I consider Noel to be good value, young, and a big reason that we were such a good defense last year. I don’t understand why people are so down on this contract.

Fournier is ok … but disappointing. I guess you can expect fair return for the next 3 years, and can be used as a filler in a trade. With some luck, if Thibs magically makes him a better defender, he could give some surplus value …

Definitely I would have used Rose and Burks money on Lonzo Ball, and have a really young core with Ball, RJ, Mitch plus Randle. In any case, I’d rather have used Burks money on Bullock.

Everyone is wondering why the 2023 buyouts, lol, it’s the 2023 draft. They’re just looking to generate roster slots, lol!!

I figured it out!!

The team options make these good players even more tradeable and to deny that is sheer ignorance.

They totally be used in a superstar trade bc they’re good, productive players on contracts that are basically expiring contracts next season. The team we send them to can either choose to keep them or flip them later for more assets a la Marcus Morris. A playoff team could use a burks, Rose or Noel.

We aren’t locked into anything and to say this is the destination is also super dumb. I’m sure RJ Barrett isn’t satisfied with last seasons end results and will have something to say about the ceiling of this team.

And we’re going to add another players here soon. We still have cap space.

But please. If being negative floats your boat, go for it. I realize it’s hard to enjoy competent management and winning basketball after 20 years of being traumatized as a Knicks fan but I promise you it’s ok to do so.

I just listened to Zach Lowe and Kevin Pelton discuss the Knicks off season and they don’t hate it. They were lukewarm, but thought probably the Knicks were being reasonable. Zach doesn’t really like Fournier very much, but concedes he has skills the Knicks really need. They worried that maybe Noel’s contract won’t age well. But overall they thought the Knicks will remain a reasonably competitive team and that will be valuable them going forward because it will help attract free agents.

So, my spreadsheet says the Knicks have at most $7.3M, assuming ascending contracts. Maybe I’m missing something, but I think the numbers being reported are wrong or they include Vildoza getting waived.

If they’re all flat contracts we have a little under $5M left.

So the actual number remaining should probably be between those 2 numbers?

Don’t get attached to Vildoza, or count on him. He was only signed because we needed to get to the cap floor last season. He’s not impressing in the olympics, playing with guys he knows (just to compare, Frank plays a lot better when he is on the national team). If he doesn’t impress on SL and training camp, he’ll be cut. Right now i think it’s more likely he’ll be cut than it is for him to remain with the team for the regular season. It’s him or Deuce for the 3rd stringer PG spot. If Vildoza wins, then Deuce probably starts with a 2-way contract. I’m predicting Deuce wins and Vildoza is cut.

And last, to not fill the thread with my takes, the values on the contracts are OK if what they are planning is to sign a superstar. Last year to match salaries we probably would’ve had to send out almost all of our roster. LOL
This season, let’s say the other team sends a superstar (eg, Lillard, Damian) and want back a young player with superstar potential (RJ), we’ll only need to attach Rose and one of Burks/Noel to get to Dame’s salary*.
* – we can trade for a player earning 125% of the salary we send out.

One aspect that has not been commented on in this thread (except briefly by E in a negative way and Brian regarding IQ) is what does Thibs think? After last season he has got to have more clout around the table. If all the FA players are because “what Thibs wants Thibs gets” I become a bit more optimistic. However if that were the case, it does not mesh with Plan A being get Chris Paul, unless LRose was just doing Paul a solid and knew he was never going to come. In any event, if these indeed were Thibs moves he must think the team can improve. That is better than WWW or Rose or Aller thinking the same thing.

All that being said, it is glaringly obvious that without another move for a PG, this roster is currently not well constructed for improvement.

The upgrade at PG is not playing Elfrid Payton

cybersoze: You’re right about the punishment, from what i know. But if you go check, almost every year teams below the floor make some moves in the last days to get to the floor. Don’t know why, but they (almost) always do.

I suspect it’s because the moves don’t cost much. Like with us, we would have spent the money on reaching the floor or we could sign Vildoza. The net spending is the same with or without him. So why not try him out.

Knick fan not in NJ: Vildoza. The net spending is the same with or without him. So why not try him out.

Depending on the solution for the starter PG, we might need Vildoza’s money (that’s another reason to sign someone last year, the money is on the books and is easily used in a s&t as it’s all non-guaranteed). But if we don’t need it, you might be right. Then i think it’s what i said, McBride starts his career on a 2-way spot, and he’ll be upgraded later in the season, depending on what he shows.

All I gotta say about this upcoming season is..
I hope there isn’t any of Dipset’s bad juju left in the Garden from last night’s show..sheesh *palm face* LOL

okay then, i can kinda guess where this is pivoting to now for some folks…i’m just gonna copy and paste: what made last year so good was winning more games than we lost, and, the playoff seed…

but geo, the law of diminishing returns is real. that kind of season is not going to keep feeling special.

iserp: Definitely I would have used Rose and Burks money on Lonzo Ball, and have a really young core with Ball, RJ, Mitch plus Randle. In any case, I’d rather have used Burks money on Bullock.

Both fair points. The Burks-Bullock thing is a toss-up, as their deals suggest. But Lonzo vs. Rose/Burks is more complicated. You’re getting youth, but last year Rose was as good as Lonzo by himself. Will he be for the next 2 years? Or more to the point, will the combined production of Rose and Burks contribute more to winning than Lonzo in the next 2 years? Would locking up Lonzo make finding an even better PG harder?

I would have erred on the side of youth and belief that Lonzo is not done improving, but he does have a very strong aversion to the paint, doesn’t get to the line, and the shooting stroke could regress. There wasn’t a perfect choice here.

Everyone is wondering why the 2023 buyouts, lol, it’s the 2023 draft. They’re just looking to generate roster slots, lol!!

It’s going to be hilarious when we trade out of “the double draft” bc all the players we liked were off the board.

cybersoze: guarantee

The spending on Vildoza so far was for last season. It went against our payroll for 2020-2021. Now we are in the second season of his contract (yes, really) even though we signed him not so long ago, His second season is not guaranteed. So if we need the salary, we can waive him.

Bullocks was good for us but clearly the FO doesn’t think they’re a toss up. Burcks is the more dynamic offensive player who can hold down the bench unit. Bullocks is a catch and shoot 3 point shooter and good defender but that is about it. They wanted more variety and dynamic scoring in the starting line up and they drafted Grimes as their 3 and D guy. Considering how our offense struggled in the playoffs, it makes perfect sense to let bullocks go and keep burks while signing Fournier.

How is it short sighted to draft players and pick up future picks?

If we had done everything Leon did in free agency, but had made better picks in the draft, I would find this off-season acceptable. If you’re waiting for 2023 and you plan to spend big on bench players, then you can afford to take Jalen Johnson and Keon Johnson, play them sparingly, develop them in practice. It would make sense to take Sharife Cooper and stick him in the G League. You didn’t need to zero in on older players who can play right away, or a draft-and-stash so you can use all your roster spots on vets.

Yeah, the free agency moves made the draft decisions really inexplicable.

Hubert: but geo, the law of diminishing returns is real. that kind of season is not going to keep feeling special.

No doubt this is true Hubert. But just having expectations of success is sort of special in and of itself. Last year, most expected the Knicks to finish with a wins total in the 20’s, and certainly no higher than the 30’s. Now the expectation is for taking the next step, something like a 45+ win season (adjusted for 82 games.) if we win 43, or 38, that will feel lousy.

But our fans are pretty smart and realistic. Sure, they freaked out at this year’s success (and reveled in BKN’s failure) but my guess is that this year will be judged more for how the young guys and Randle play. If Rose, Burks, even Fournier don’t have it, or if Noel goes down, but Obi, IQ, McBride, Grimes, Mitch all move up the chain, then even a lower win total could be special. If Sims becomes a viable player ahd he, Obi and Mitch start catching lobs from McBride, Knicks fans will eat that up. The smart fans know that the FO kicked the can down the road for big moves yet to come, that this is far from a finished product. Now the REALLY smart fans might see fault in the process/execution, and that’s fair if properly measured. But I doubt that the preponterance of fans are going to be pissed if the team plays hard like they did last year but winds up in the play-in (likely) and ekes into the 8 slot. If they miss the playoffs or lose in the play-in, it will all depend on why. Injuries? Regression? Bad mid-season moves? Turmoil in the locker room?

Sounds like we have somewhere between $8-12MM left (if we let Vildoza go) plus the room exception (I assume at least half of the room will go to signing McBride — need to use cap space / exceptions to sign for >2 year contracts as I understand it).

If they have $8 million or so left, I would imagine that they try to get a guy for under $8 million and use the rest on McBride. Remember, he already is accounted for in the cap with his rookie cap hold and I don’t believe he’ll be getting a lot more than that, right? Something like 20% more, I believe. That way the full room could be used on another guy.

Man, I just want them to sign someone so I could start a new thread. 🙂

McBride doesn’t have a hold as a 2nd rd pick, I’m pretty sure.

He could get the minimum, but wouldn’t surprise me if they pay him a bit more.

how much do we think of sims that we signed noel to a 2/3yr contract.. and brought back taj… or that we’re looking around for another pg when McBride is 4th on the depth chart as is? how many minutes is Grimes getting with Burks in tow?

If Rose, Burks, even Fournier don’t have it, or if Noel goes down, but Obi, IQ, McBride, Grimes, Mitch all move up the chain, then even a lower win total could be special. If Sims becomes a viable player ahd he, Obi and Mitch start catching lobs from McBride, Knicks fans will eat that up. The smart fans know that the FO kicked the can down the road for big moves yet to come, that this is far from a finished product.

that’s all fair. I didn’t kill the Knicks free agency. I called it “meh.” I killed the draft. If we had better guys than Sims & McBride in the paragraph above, I would agree with you. (And I like McBride, I just wish he wasn’t my favorite player they drafted).

If the Knicks had done everything they did in free agency, but drafted Johnson & Johnson, or Johnson & Jackson in round 1, and Cooper & McBride in round 2, I would have given Leon a B for the off-season.

If you’re going to kick the can down the road, you can afford to draft guys who need two years of seasoning, you know?

how much do we think of sims that we signed noel to a 2/3yr contract.. and brought back taj… or that we’re looking around for another pg when McBride is 4th on the depth chart as is? how many minutes is Grimes getting with Burks in tow?

To think that Sims, McBride, or Grimes are going to all play significant minutes as rookies is just not realistic considering where they were drafted. Most likely they play 10-15 min/game at most.

If you assume Fournier will take all of Bullock’s minutes and that Burks will play about the same, that leaves about 2700 minutes between Knox, Frank, Rivers, and Payton basically no longer playing.

Sims is almost certainly going to the G-league and we’ll see what happens with the #58 pick in the draft.

Assuming Rose/Burks/IQ will play more minutes than last year, let’s say there are 1600 minutes left to give Grimes and McBride (and Vildoza I guess). I would say that’s a pretty reasonable state of affairs. Now if they pick up another guard… then who knows.

But if you look at the 2020 draft – even “good” non-lottery rookies don’t play that much. Most of the real minutes that rookies played went to teams that weren’t trying to win – with notable exceptions of IQ, Pritchard, Flynn, Desmond Bane, Xavier Tillman. Only 4 second round picks played >383 minutes (Maledon, Tillman, Saben Lee, Kenyon Martin Jr).

expecting rookies to play much of a role at all is an outlier scenario, not the expected scenario.

whoa!

Kemba Walker is our new starting point guard.

Getting Kemba for free and at the minimum is pretty nice.

Yeah, this Kemba news is great. That’s worth a thread!

Hubert, even if the knicks drafted at 19 and 21, they most likely would have drafted an upperclassman because the one and done kids almost always go in the top of the draft (or super late in the second round). Once you get into the later first round, you are drafting the sophomores, juniors, etc…who have less upside. This is true regardless of who is drafting later in the first round. The young kids in that draft range are even more risky than the top young kinds. So its not short sighted to draft older kids in that range.

ess-dog:
Can’t believe it’s Summer League already. Davion Mitchell looked real good yesterday, too.

yeah..i was watching that game and thinking the same thing…very polished…definitely stood out amongst the rest of the riff raff….