ESPN.com: Knicks’ parent company Madison Square Garden issues statement weeks after George Floyd’s killing

I think Desus speaks for us all

https://twitter.com/desusnice/status/1270383648550776835

Saying nothing was really shitty, was made worse by Dolan offering a cockamamie justification for saying nothing, and was then made even worse by eventually issuing an offensively pathetic statement.

A real masterclass in being James Dolan!

I am going to try to answer GoNY’s question in this new thread. The answer depends on who we draft. We should draft the best player available. I’m not much of a drafter, but the two players In the draft who seem Like they would be an NBA level
player their first season are Wiseman and Haliburton. If we pick Haliburton, I would ditch DSJ and keep Frank and resign Payton and probably resign Gibson, depending on the free agent market for centers. If we get Wiseman, then we have to keep our current point guards, but probably don’t need Gibson. But Wiseman has to really be the BPA by more than a tiny margin for us to pick him since he fits so badly with Randle and Mitch. If we get someone else, and he’s a point guard, again I’d let DSJ go. If anyone else is drafted, he will probably be someone who takes a while to develop. So then I would then focus on picking a team that’s good at defense because we would have no hope of being good at offense. I don’t think it matters much who we keep. We have a bunch of serviceable NBA vets that could be resigned, and they would probably have similar usefulness.

Knicks stay Knicksing

DO WE STILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT

First, my reaction to Dolan and the Knicks message. I refrain from politics here. This place is a haven. (Catch me on Twitter, where I’m, well, not reserved). Dolan is a Trump supporter. He’s part of the problem – a rich guy with power. How did you think a guy that would ban Charles Oakley and Spike Lee feels about all this? I am not surprised in the least. Dolan cannot ever disappoint me because I have no expectations of decency from him at all.

@KnickfaninNJ

GoNY, where is Harkless in your calculations?

I didn’t list him because he’s a UFA and goes into that large pool of mediocre players that are UFAs this year. Note that I also left off our RFAs, Dotson, Trier, Rabb and Kadeem Allen.

I would find a way to get rid of DS Jr too but the problem with your “dump DS Jr.” approach is that he’s signed and under contract. Unless he’s traded, he can’t be dumped without taking the cap hit of $5.7M. As for resigning Taj or Payton, they are already signed for $9.45M and $8M respectively. They both have $1M guaranteed. But of the 4 players, these are the two I would want also. I really like both of them. They are solid NBA players – not stars, but good players.

Free agency always starts after the draft, so I agree the results of the draft will impact who we sign.

GoNY, you make a good point about DSJ. I hope he’s actually tradeable. If we draft a point guard, then we have four of them and, like you, I think Payton is worth keeping.

I wonder if a trade of DSjr plus cash for Malik Monk would make sense for Charlotte. Monk has been underwhelming and had a drug suspension, while DSjr is from NC. I’m not completely out on Monk as a evolving into a microwave scorer off the bench at some point.

I’d probably keep Elfrid and Harkless if we can get him on a good deal. Teams are going to be wing hungry at the deadline, and Moe could be a useful trade asset. I don’t think we should treat DSJ like he’s going to play next season and aside from Payton there’s a significant chance all our PGs are terrible. There are plenty of minutes at guard for Payton, Frank and a rookie to share.. If you run into a minutes logjam Payton on an expiring deal is pretty tradeable. 8 million isn’t that much money and he’s at least a servicable vet for a team that might need an upgrade at backup PG.

It’s not a bad trade, but it’s yet another Draft disappointment point guard.

My problem with a DS Jr for Monk trade is that it accomplishes virtually nothing other than bring in a troubled player.

But think of the upside! Monk has been Z-man’s pet since before the 2017 draft.

Yeah, I’d do that trade with no expectations that anything comes out of it. But, it has the proverbial “change of scenery” chance of turning out okay, and both guys seem to have worn out their welcomes with their current teams.

He’s listed as a point guard, so I am confused about his role.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: But think of the upside! Monk has been Z-man’s pet since before the 2017 draft.

He was?! I don’t remember that..my recollection is that I was in the “Anyone but Frank” camp…I liked DSjr (ugh!) but also both Collins’, Mitchell, and others.

Seriously, I am utterly revolted by DSjr’s game and would trade him for anything, or have no qualms with cutting him.

To be fair, I found an old thread where you linked to statistical analysis that had Monk as the top prospect of the draft. He’s been a disappointment, and getting popped for cocaine use — meaning that somehow, he managed to have done a line or two 48-72 hours prior to one of his four random drug tests of the season — isn’t doing anything to fix that.

I’d rather get an expiring and a 2021 second rounder for DSJ tbh. Is that impossible right now?

https://dailyknicks.com/2020/06/10/ny-knicks-approval-rating-players-low-statement/

We should probably just tank because no one wants to voluntarily sign up to be an employee of our shitty owner

The Steve Stoute Era is off to an inauspicious start.

I’ll also throw in the fact that James Dolan’s shitty “blues” music is cultural appropriation at its worst

For those who appreciate flashback experiences that lead to even greater paroxysms of rage, there’s this:

‘ Seth Curry and Tim Hardaway Jr. have been phenomenal complementary fits as spot-up threats (1.36 and 1.29 points per spot-up possession, respectively, ranking first and second among players with at least 150 opportunities).’

I remember the days when people were arguing about picking up the less-spicy Curry for a test run.

System, fit, coach, development, and/or playing with a superstar who knows how to pass. Discuss.

The Steve Stoute Era is off to an inauspicious start.

our public relations guy needs a public relations guy…

Sources: As NBA and NBPA are finalizing terms on return-to-play plan today, there’s a faction of players discussing as a group whether restarting season in the Orlando bubble is a good idea. Several dozen players participated in a conference call in last 24 hours to discuss it.

Do these guys wanna give up ALL of the rest of their salary for the year AND fuck the cap for, like, ever ????? or ????

or ????????

FUCK I want some FUCKING basketball

Has anyone been paying attention to Colin McGowan’s Suspended Indefinitely series? He’s really top-notch in my book. This piece on Josh Howard is great work.

I’d sure rather have six cost-controlled years of Jared Kelenic, Justin Dunn, Anthony Kay, and Simeon Woods-Richardson than zero years of Marcus Stroman, two years of Edwin Diaz and Robinson Cano’s age 38-40 seasons

Random thoughts as a pure NBA fan:
1. Even though Whiteside’s contract is a bit egregious, if Portland really is committed to the backcourt of Lillard and McCollum, I think they are better off trading for Kevin Love with a package centered around Nurkic. Otherwise they are stuck because I don’t see them being able to move Whiteside or McCollum for better fits. For one, if they trade McCollum, they need to bring back a shooter. What kind of package, considering their roster, can they get back that is worthwhile? And secondly, who really wants Whiteside at that salary? Might as well make the most out of him and spread the floor around him.
2. I would LOVE to see Embiid in Miami and Adebayo in Philly. Both of those teams would be SO much better if those two switched places. Philly would be an absolute terror. And Miami would be deadly efficient- so long as they can keep Embiid upright.
3. Fuck Reggie Miller(actually this is from the Knicks fan in me) LOL

Can’t ABC just buy the rights to use John Tesh’s basketball song for their coverage?

Can’t forget Chris Dudley. In an elite group of bench mascots with little discernible talent. Maybe that career 43% ts% doesn’t tell the whole story though.

Watching him shoot foul shots was quite entertaining though….

I’d write something about the Knicks here, but I just read this Ringer piece that looks at the Knicks (among other teams) and frankly it could have been written by me. So I’ll just send the link.

https://www.theringer.com/2020/6/11/21287980/nba-offseason-preview-knicks-bulls-hornets-pistons

I appreciated the RJ factoid. Sobering.

See, this is my issue with RJ. If his calling card is ball-dominant playmaker, but he’s also worse than pretty much any other ball-dominant playmaker in the NBA, then why build around him?
And maybe he’s even going to be a liability long-term (especially at his contract) since he can’t shoot, which is pretty important these days. Granted, he should improve some, but will he ever be a worthwhile complementary player when he doesn’t become the 2nd coming of Kobe?

@KnickfaninNJ

The Knicks keep changing coaches and players, so they don’t have either a consistent system or stability. It’s one reason I lean toward keeping Miller as coach. He’s competent and they were just getting used to him.

I lean Miller too, for continuity too. But I think Woodson might be my #2 choice and it might be the prudent choice for the Knicks too because of how well MSG’s BLM message landed.

@Raven

I’d write something about the Knicks here, but I just read this Ringer piece that looks at the Knicks (among other teams) and frankly it could have been written by me. I appreciated the RJ factoid. Sobering.

All of his shooting needs to improve. He needs to be embarrassed with that 40% FG%, 32% 3pt% and 61% from the line. Those are awful numbers. And guess who on the Knicks is worse than him… Knox! Wait, not all news is bad. Leading the league….. MITCH!

…but they can’t shoot.

I was listening to Raymond Felton on KnicksFanTV the other day. Felton said he’s not done. It got me to wonder, who wins this 5 on 5 game next year, no adjustments for age:

Team 1: LaMelo Ball, RJ Barrett, Kevin Knox, Julius Randle, Mitch Robinson
vs.
Team 2: Raymond Felton, JR Smith, Wilson Chandler, Carmelo Anthony, Tyson Chandler

Wood might not get as much as normally, given the upcoming cap calamity. Same for FVV.

“both Kevin Knox and RJ Barrett showed up in new york ready to go to work on day 1…in a not always healthy or stable work environment…

i know that ain’t got nothing to do with their performance on the court, but…”

Wow…. I’m impressed they showed up to work to collect their combined 12 M for this sort of production:

496th and 510th in VORP

Yeah…. they could probably use a bit of directed practice!

I still like Bertans as a target.

I’d especially love it if they got Bertans and dumped Randle.

I can’t really argue with you bob, it’s essentially guarded optimism vs. justified pessimism. We’ll see soon enough. Well, not really.

Wow…. I’m impressed they showed up to work to collect their combined 12 M

hmmmm, it sounds like those speedo briefs of yours may have somehow made their way up your incredibly clenched buttocks to rub away any good sense you may have once possessed from your asshole through your brain…

The Knicks have a couple of interesting young players, but they don’t even have a legitimate NBA starter, let alone a franchise caliber player or even an all star. The closest thing to a starter they have is Robinson, but he can’t stay on the court and is very green. He’s probably 2-3 years away from being a legitimate starting NBA center that understands both sides of the game and his role. It’s shocking how far away they are from being a good team given all the lottery picks and free agent opportunities they’ve had over the last few years.

The Porzingis trade was a devastating blow that set them back years. I know it was a gamble on free agency, but they got raped on that one. They had to get back at least 1 legitimate player in that deal, but they got back nothing. Dallas even got Hardaway healthy again, turned his career around, and found a useful role for him. It’s hard to be a fan with this much ineptitude from the owner on down.

“bless you bob…i am a young fella by golly…

take away their on court performance (which at times wasn’t too terrible) and they both did everything right…who knows, maybe playing in a more stable environment and coherent system will help them both…i like their character…”

Unfortunately for Knick fans they are primarily paid for their “on the court performance” (and YES it was almost exclusively god awful). They might both be very nice fellows but that and 15 cents will get you on the subway (oh wait….)

Oh Bob, you write almost normal if caustic posts for a bit and I start to think there we go, and then you flip over to your Russian bot job. Here’s what’s happening in Seattle:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/welcome-to-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone-where-seattle-protesters-gather-without-police/
I know because I live here. The city has become peaceful now, because the police aren’t escalating things anymore. The fire chief is walking around having conversations, police are still answering 911 calls. There’s real dialog now about something really important. Your mockery just sounds hollow, pitiful, and willfully ignorant. Do us all a favor and crawl back into your bunker. Or under your rock.

Funny how several highly respected generals/joint chiefs have all had the temerity to publicly rebuke Trump. Political hacks, I guess…real Greek chorus types. Or maybe just not the big fan of Jackboot marches that bob is…

And yeah, Seattle is the problem. Solution? Have a political rally on Juneteenth at the site of one of the most notorious mass-lynchings in our country’s history. I’m wondering whether some of those “very fine people” who marched carrying torches and chanting “Jews will not replace us!” while defending a statue of a seditious defender of slavery in the heart a prestigious public university will make the trip. At least those fine people were peaceful, not like those thugs in Seattle. Well, except maybe for the one who plowed his car into a crowd.

Hopped into a conference call today and my Fox News-loving boss was asking my Capitol Hill-resident coworker about it. “It looks like a farmer’s market.”

Likewise, my best friend lives on Harvard Ave. with his wife and an infant. You know what was the worst part of the whole thing? Having to seal his windows to keep the flashbangs and tear gas from harming his child.

Bob, I had an epiphany about you, and it’s that I have nothing but pity for you. You fill your head with some of the worst vile available on cable, and suckle at the teet of rags like National Review. You champion garbage like Tucker Carlson, and dismiss the most competent critics like Colin Powell and Rex Tillerson for no feasible reason. It all points to deep programming to which you have no choice but to be oblivious to. Years of simmering hate brought out of the shadows by the English-speaking equivalent of Jair Bolsonaro, no more than a con-man with the world’s most efficient propaganda machines behind him, pumped full of Koch and Mercer and De Vos blood money, ignorant of his own illiteracy, driven by nothing but narcissistic rage and impotent social-media anger. I have nothing but pity for you for being in his thrall. It’s sad to see anyone with half a break waste his mind on a leader this functionally useless and morally bankrupt, but here you are.

bobneptune: That’s why we have elections and don’t have self appointed Committees of General Defense or Committees of Public Safety

Of course. Those duly elected folks have really done a bang-up job over the years. Like the ones who passed all the Jim Crow laws. Yup, that’s why we have elections.

jeez…i stepped away for a few days because i couldn’t read bob’s drivel and just now was like..hmm…let me check in and boom…still spewing like a busted sewer main in midtown…like ol’ faithful…see ya…

Who cares what party they were from? There were the alt-right of their day, regardless of party.

But what’s the use? Your dumb arch-conservative ass must be sure that Lincoln the Republican is smiling down on Trump the Republican.

“jeez…i stepped away for a few days because i couldn’t read bob’s drivel and just now was like..hmm…let me check in and boom…still spewing like a busted sewer main in midtown…like ol’ faithful…see ya…”

What on earth are you talking about? I merely asked my old pal Jowels how he was enjoying the hegemony of comrade Simone and had he moved into his protectorate yet?

You guys have absolutely no sense of humor. Don’t you think it is humorous 6-8 square blocks of a major US city can declare independence and set up their own Committee of Public Safety with a guy self appointing himself lord of all he sees.

No one sees the irony? Wow…..welcome to what you wished for.

“And that’s why people like Trump and Tom Cotton have been so eager to send in the military. They aren’t concerned about keeping the peace; if that mattered to them, *they would have reacted harshly to the spectacle of armed right-wingers threatening Michigan’s State Legislature.* Instead, Trump tweeted his support.”

The difference between the “armed right wingers” and your friends is while they were constitutionally expressing their grievances they didn’t light the state house on fire, break into thousands of stores, burn down people’s businesses or shoot people willy nilly.

Just a tiny, tiny bit of difference, No?

I lived in Capitol Hill for a year back in the 90’s, at Bellevue and Denny, just a few minutes walk from what is now known as CHAZ. I’ve been back countless times over the years, played at Neumo’s more times than I can count.

Capitol Hill is a full-on hipster neighborhood, it’s all record stores, overpriced coffee shops, bookstores, weed shops, tattoo parlors, and all sorts of bougie hipster shit. It’s pretty much the least scary place you can imagine. It has a long history as a gay/lesbian neighborhood. I’d move there happily. It’s my kind of place. I’m much more scared of towns where the pinnacle of culture is the Applebee’s off the freeway exit.

The idea that the Geriatric Propaganda Network has made it out to be some sort of terrifying hellhole and that people like bob here are duly terrified is, of course, hilarious. Tucker said it’s scary, bob! Always, always listen to Tucker. He’ll tell you what you want to hear. He still has a few sponsors left I think. Those catheters ain’t gonna sell themselves.

P.S. I live in Portland.

yeah, well, that’s just your opinion jowles…

pretty funny how the guy who lied right through his teeth bogusing up phony WMD photos and vouching for them in front of the UN and starting a giant shit show in the Middleast and the CEO of EXXON are now your paragons of virtue and heros now

I don’t know where you got the idea that I think Tillerson (or Powell) is a paragon of virtue. I have, however, read extensively on Tillerson, and from a big-business conservative’s view, I don’t know of any figure from American industry better suited for the nation’s top foreign policy job than him. Being the CEO of Exxon necessarily means being a diplomat to some of the world’s roughest nations, like Chad, Nigeria, Iraq and Venezuela, and managing a huge team of experts, installed in any country that does oil and gas business, designed to manage the corporation’s enormous mass of interests.

Tillerson was exactly the kind of person who knows how to leverage American economic and military power against foreign governments and businesses alike. The fact that he’s not a person that I admire or whose morals I respect is wholly irrelevant to his appeal to a corporatist’s desired State Department strategy. That you dismiss his assessment of Trump based on a conjectured ex-employee’s “sour grapes” theory tells me a lot about your sobriety on this matter, or any regarding the buffoon in the White House.

Or did you find that a little embarrassing that the President of the United States tweeted something that patently ridiculous?

(1) That didn’t happen.
(2) And if it did, it wasn’t that bad.
(3) And if it was, that’s not a big deal.
(4) And if it is, it wasn’t my fault.
(5) And if it was, I didn’t mean it.
(6) And if I did, you deserved it.

My guess as to his answer.

i can’t remember if it was during world war 1 or world war 2, maybe both – but, they named a lot of the southern military bases after confederate officers in order to help with recruiting…

no time like the present to fix the mistakes of the past, heard it will cost a whole lot of money (tens of millions?) to rename the bases …when we studied the civil war i never got the impression the confederates were enemies of the state – my perception at the time was there was almost a nobility in their cause…a bunch of the officers fighting for the south went to school upstate…

no doubt many joined due to a community commitment to a call to arms…however – they were enemies of the state, they were traitors, and their cause sucked…

the god kids are african-american…my people come from the uk and central america, i don’t really feel an attachment to any ethnic ties…i know folks see me as being white…god daughter saw race discrimination every where as a result of how things went for her at school, turns out – some of that may have been true in her experience, mostly she just needed to focus better on her education…we discussed race a lot…i remember one time we were over mom’s at the kitchen table – i told her don’t worry so much about being black in our society, worry more about being a woman…

progress has been made, but, that alone can make life a tough journey…

her brother, about a decade younger – doesn’t really see race at all…it’s pretty cool…up until now, we’ve never really discussed race…we’ve spoke a little about recent events and the protests…sadly a couple of days later he asked if the police were going to shoot him…

parenting at times is like navigating a mine field – with a butterfly effect…

Man, forget about a place for a while and you come back to find everybody endorsing white folks commandeering Central Park, telling the cops to screw off, and then deciding who can and who cannot enter.

Wait. Are you telling me the only people who can do that are ones you approve of? Yeah, that kind of double-standard never ends in blood and tears. By the way, how many people wound up getting sexually assaulted at the Occupy Wall Street protests?

Mike

“Democratic Party has changed a lot over the years.”

As has the entire country…. most of you folks just refuse to recognize that. Without the tireless work of Sen. Everitt Dirksen and the liberal republicans the 1964 Civil Rights act never passes cloture in the Senate. That’s history.

I mean besides the internment of Japanese during WWII your idol FDR’s first Supreme Court appointment was a Klansman Hugo Black.

Robert Byrd another “reformed Klansman” was Senate Majority leader as recently as 1989.

As has the entire country…. most of you folks just refuse to recognize that. Without the tireless work of Sen. Everitt Dirksen and the liberal republicans the 1964 Civil Rights act never passes cloture in the Senate. That’s history.

Nobody on the planet denies this. It’s taught in every US History course from elementary school all the way up to the most crunchy granola universities. Only you and Dinesh D’Souza think it’s, like, the Democratic Party’s deep dark secret or whatever.

It’s also a fact that, as KnickFanInNJ (not exactly a member of the Greek Chorus™) said, the racist Southern Democrats left the Democratic party and became Republicans as a result of the Democrats’ embrace of civil rights. This process started in 1948 when Truman embraced civil rights as part of the party platform (see Thurmond’s third-party dixiecrat bid) and just about finished with the passage of the Civil Rights Act (Nixon cleaned up who remained with the Southern Strategy).

Everyone knows this. There is nothing secret or scandalous about it. Every time a conservative points to it as some kind of own they’re just revealing they think everyone is as ignorant of history as themselves.

Anyway bob, I noticed you dodged a few questions. Was the 75 year old man who tragically is reported to have suffered a brain injury a card carrying ANTIFA agitator?

Bob is not going to kick owning the libs to the curb. Big part of what he does around here.

I’m fine with pointing out cases where liberals have taken controversial stands, there are plenty of them. But let’s be honest about what’s being argued here.

I wonder what the Hispanic and Asian communities think of what’s going on.

At the rate people come to the US, most families in the US now (including white) weren’t even in this country when a lot of the history people are arguing about occurred. That’s especially true of Asians and Hispanics.

Hispanics and Asians are coming here in droves now for the same reasons all the groups before them came. They want an opportunity to get an education, a good job, and a better life for their families. Some of the current wave of immigrants are facing the same resistance every group before them faced. However, every group before them slowly worked their way up the ladder and contributed. So the fears about job loss, lack of education, crime, poverty, a different culture, a different religion, etc.. vanished and the group was slowly assimilated.

The difference this time is that at least some of the current wave must be thinking they picked the wrong country. They picked a country that has obviously gone bat shit crazy because of a single election.

“Bob is not going to kick owning the libs to the curb. Big part of what he does around here.”

As Sargent Joe Friday used to say, “Just the facts ma’am!”

It’s been a moment of clarity for me seeing how much this moment is about not getting trolled. It’s so much bigger than Trump. It’s actually revealing how small he is and how powerless.

I mean besides the internment of Japanese during WWII your idol FDR’s first Supreme Court appointment was a Klansman Hugo Black.

Robert Byrd another “reformed Klansman” was Senate Majority leader as recently as 1989.

What the F**k Bob, why are you putting words in my mouth? I didn’t make any comment about Robert Byrd or FDR. Nor does your post actually respond to anything I said. I want an apology from you. I understand why some people want you banned.

Haha, this is a good thread. I am much smarter having read all the Whatabouts.

Yeah, you guys are terrible about feeding the trolls…

I will divert with this bold trade concept:

San Antonio desperately needs some new star power. Assuming they don’t move up in the lottery, I’d propose trading RJ for their #11, Trey Lyles, filler, and their 2023 first, with the plan of drafting Hayes and Vassell at 6 and 11, respectively (or LaMelo/Haliburton, who I’m less high on, and Nesmith).

I guess if you’re high on RJ’s future, you’ll scoff at this proposal, but I just think there are too many holes in his game for him to ever be more than just a decent player. I’d rather roll with a smart, young backcourt and tank for Cunningham in 2021.

Of course, the team would never do this, but it makes more sense to me.

I’m ok with the idea of trading RJ for value, but I don’t see the appeal of Lyles. His stats look like Randle’s but with less scoring and a bit better three point shooting. RJ plays a position that is much harder to fill than Lyles does. So you are trading away a type of player that’s hard to get for a player at a position that’s easier to fill and who duplicates what we already have. I wasn’t thrilled with RJ’s performance last year but he should get better given his age. So I say no to the trade.

Brian Cronin:
The things that Barrett can do, players typically don’t get better at.

The thing that Barrett can’t do, players often do get better at.

If Barrett learns to shoot, which is very possible, he’ll be a star. If he never learns to shoot, then he will not be a good player. I think it’s too soon to give up on him for anything but an overwhelming offer.

Yeah, I agree. The fact that he played pretty good defense can’t be ignored either.

His efficiency is so bad that he may never make it to “good player.” But the rest of his game is NBA quality. Too soon to give up on him in my opinion.

I think an outside shot changes everything for Barrett. It opens his entire game up.

@MikeVorkunov
The Knicks are adding to their front office and hiring Pelicans scout Alex Kline to a larger scouting role in their organization, working under new assistant-GM Walt Perrin, league sources tell The Athletic.

It doesn’t seem terribly likely that RJ will shoot drastically better, but it’s also not completely out of the question. He’s not really a blue chip prospect. But he is at least a decent prospect, unlike the Knox/Ntilikina/DSJ group.

He had a much worse age 19 season that Lebron, KD, and Devin Booker… and even CJ Miles.

I’m not saying he won’t at least become an average NBA player, but is that worth paying #3-pick money for?

It’s just a big hole for him to climb out of.

Meanwhile, there are other kids at various positions in this draft with better advanced stats than RJ’s, and there will surely be others in future drafts.

A few guys with much worse TS% in their age 19 rookie season than Barrett who ended up being good shooters:

JR Smith
Brandon Ingram
Rashard Lewis
Lou Williams

“Look at Fox. I love Fox.” -Brian Cronin

You and Bob and Mike Bunge have more in common than you thought!

Btw, I find Bob to be intolerable, but up until today he wasn’t really a troll. Someone would invoke Trump’s name and he’d come raining in with his garbage defenses of the guy, but it always sprang from the Greek Chorus. But on this thread he is a 100% troll, asking Jowles, who doesn’t even live in Seattle, if he “has moved himself and the missus and their bank account to CHAZ? Do you feel better living under the hegemony of Raz Simone the Benevolent? loooooooool Seattle.” This unsolicited hand grenade had no purpose but to devolve the thread into an unnecessary war of words. It wasn’t the least bit basketball related, Knicks related, or even fact related. He should be ashamed, and treated like the troll that he is.

RJ wasn’t a bad prospect, but I never viewed him as a good prospect. Last year reinforced that for me.

He very well may blossom and keeping him isn’t the worst decision. But I’d just as soon trade him if you can capitalize on his draft value. I don’t know who would offer enough in a trade, or even have a package in mind, to make it worth trading RJ, but I do think his perceived value far outweighs his actual value.

I don’t see him ever being efficient enough to be the primary scorer, but that’s what his game demands. I project him as a less efficient DeMar DeRozan. Scores a lot, gets boards & assists, but I do not want him.

is that parenthetical meant to be the whole set or just examples?

Examples. Some others would be Jaren Jackson, Clarke, Michael Porter, Trae, SGA. Among the older guys who will be owed big extension money: Adebayo, Tatum, Mitchell, Jarrett Allen, Fox…

The list is pretty long, but having three years left on the contract is a plus.

I don’t think RJ/DeRozan is a great comparison, it seems like more of a floor for RJ. DeRozan really can’t shoot 3’s (although he’s an excellent FT shooter, go figure). In 11 years he only had one year where he shot 3’s better (barely) than RJ did as a rookie, and never averaged as many attempts per 36 as RJ. If DeRozan could shoot 3’s he’d be a deserving max player. RJ seems to be more likely to be a better-than-decent defensive player (not DeRozan) and a leader (DeRozan doesn’t really have that gene.)

(when I say a deserving “max” player, I mean at the low end of the max scale…high 20’s-low 30’s…)

RJ shot .320 from 3PT, which is bad but not hopeless. Same goes for his TS%, it was .479 which is bad but not insanely bad. The FT% is alarming, only 61%, and I’m surprised it was even that high, it seemed like he hardly ever made a free throw.

It’s still staggering to me how poorly the Knicks built their team around Barrett. The guy’s their highest draft pick in 30 plus years and they play him out of position and surround him with a bunch of non-shooters. It was baffling in how stupid it was.

That should be the first question asked any Knick coach. “So, what position do you see Barrett at next season?”

HUH?!?!?!?!

Out of 196 qualifying players in 2020 in TS%, RJ ranked 192nd! He was followed by Kevin Knox and Elfrid Payton LOL. The only players worse were Jarrett Culver and Jordan Poole. You wonder why this team sucked?

Context was pretty obviously “for a teenage rookie wing who shot a lot”

It’s not hopeless because he’s a 19-year-old rookie, GoNY. The sophomore season is going to tell us a lot about his “upside.” Keep in mind that I’m the guy who advocated to trade down to a package of #8 + #17 + #35. The Knicks picked him and he’s got two years before the Knicks need to make any real decision at all.

http://bkref.com/tiny/e8Su5 This list of player (>1000 MP teenagers since 2000-11) doesn’t look great for him, but it’s not totally damning. The guys who performed worse via OBPM are almost all scrubs — Ingram is the only one worth a damn, and it took him three full years before he proved himself anywhere close to worthy of being a #2 overall pick.

He is an asset under cost control for three more years. Unless there’s a real opportunity to get #3 overall pick value back for him (the #3 and #16 overall picks from MIN for a package of Barrett and the LAC 1RP, let’s say), there’s no point in selling low. It’s not like he’s going to keep the Knicks from being a playoff contender next year. If you replace him without getting 2020 draft picks in return, you’re just punting. It makes no sense to do that.

t’s not hopeless because he’s a 19-year-old rookie,

I know. I like Barrett … and Knox and Elfrid. I just wish they could shoot. And Barrett, whose game is to get to the line, shouldn’t be a 60% FT shooter.

I just have a personality flaw that makes it impossible for me to not call out a statement so egregiously wrong.

Oh, and another tidbit. Look who’s #1 in that TS% ranking. Mitch!

But then the whole point is that it’s only within the last decade that 19 year olds have come in and played big minutes (that was the annoying thing last season, where every other game, Knox was doing something that only Lebron had done, but it was only because so few teenagers had the opportunity to it, it wasn’t like Knox was similar to Lebron), so there’s not a whole lot of sample size to compare to Barrett to begin with.

What we do know is there are lots of 19 year olds who shot like shit and then later learned to score. Legendary players like Lebron and Durant. Lebron was a sub 50% TS% in his rookie season! In other words, “He shot like shit in his age 19 season” doesn’t mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

There are not many 19 year olds who can do the other things Barrett can do, which is why he was the #3 pick. Those things have real meaning. “He shot like shit in his rookie season” does not.

Will he shoot like shit in his age 20 season? I have no idea. That’s the crazy thing about the NBA. No one really knows which guy is the guy who will learn to shoot and which is the guy who won’t. We know plenty of guys do and we know plenty of guys don’t. Which is precisely why “He shot like shit in his age 19 season” has so little meaning.

What he does in his age 20 season will tell us a lot more (and heck, even there, as noted, Ingram eventually figured it out, as well, but I’ll concede that if you don’t figure it out after two seasons, your odds go way lower).

Barrett’s not Knox, he’s not useless if he’s not scoring efficiently. That’s why he’s not worth giving up on so early. Not unless some team wants to pay a premium for him.

Now, if he sucks next year, then sure, fuck him. But I’d gladly take that risk over trading him for some mediocre future assets.

Barrett’s not Knox, he’s not useless if he’s not scoring efficiently.

Which is a major indictment of Knox, who showed virtually no improvement from his rookie season. Those two cats should be spending the summer shooting until their arms are ready to drop off.

Off the top of my head, Dirk Nowitzki, Jeff Teague and Joe Johnson all had TS% similar to RJ’s as rookies. I’m sure there are other good players who had around a .480 TS% as a rookie but I’m too lazy to search.

Off the top of my head, Dirk Nowitzki, Jeff Teague and Joe Johnson all had TS% similar to RJ’s as rookies. I’m sure there are other good players who had around a .480 TS% as a rookie but I’m too lazy to search.

Yeah, but in 1999, Nowitzki’s rookie year, the league average TS% was .511. This year it’s .564. According to TS+, Barrett was at a 85 and Nowitzki was at a 96. Johnson scored 92 and Teague was the worst of the bunch at 84 despite being 21 during his rookie year.

Knox might be among the GOATs of negative TSAdd. I covered this last year, when he and Ntilikina contributed like negative five wins from their shooting despite taking something like 15% of the Knicks’ total shots, but his TSAdd was -171.3. Horrific!

“Almost all rookies his age are terrible at scoring. Durant was a terrible scorer. LeBron wasn’t anything to write home about.”

Durant is a poor comp. Everyone knew Durant could shoot the eyes out of the basket (40.4% from 3 and 81.6% FT% at Texas) but he was sooooo weak he had to get stronger to get his shot off in the NBA. He had an ungodly handle for a 6’10” beanpole. A 9’2″ wingspan. No one was worried he wouldn’t be able to score in the NBA once he got a little stronger. He was so weak at the 2007 combine he couldn’t bench 185 a single time. He did shoot 87.3% FT’s as a rookie.

LeBron didn’t have the benefit of a full year with Coach K. He still isn’t a good shooter to this day. But once he learned how to harness his ungodly power at the rim his shooting numbers exploded, Barrett doesn’t have near the explosion of James (who does at his size).

And for the record , I honestly thought you were from Seattle. Just giving you the needle yesterday.

And yet, John Calipari says there’s still hope and this should have been expected

My issue with RJ is that he doesn’t appear to have that much physical projection. He’s not like a Giannis who came into the league looking like Bambi and now looks like a Miura. Zion is the same way I think.

He also has played a ton of high level basketball. How many more minutes of top tier basketball had he played relative to Mitch?

It appears to be consensus but I think there is a lot less upside to RJ and little value overall if he can’t learn to shoot.

Yes, KD & Lebron shot poorly as rookie teenagers. But RJ Barrett is not Lebron or KD. He didn’t show nearly the promise as either of those players.

Mediocre college numbers and awful NBA numbers does not equal phenomenal college/HS play and awful NBA numbers.

i don’t actually think RJ’s defense was all that auspicious, even though it was better than feared. he looked so much worse than, say, jaylen brown as a rookie defender. even when i take my magic geo pills and try to get all pumped about future rj shooting 36pct from 3 and 74pct from the line, all i can manage to see is like jalen rose or maybe ron harper without the d.

who is the worst rookie contract guy (worst including contract considerations) you would trade rj for right now? what about 1yr and rfa rights to huge injury risk jonathan isaac?

“Allan Houston!

.465 TS% in 79 games as a 22 year old rookie.

(If he’d been a Knick, and there’d been Knickerblogger, we’d have had an entire year of Greek Chorus damnation for our lottery pick!)”

Where’s the O’really owl when you need him.

RJ barrett has never in HS or College or one year pro shown any proclivity to shoot the basketball with the least little bit of competency other than at the rim.

Allan Houston on the other hand walked into Tennessee as an 18 yr old and shot 43.2% from 3 on 192 attempts and 80.5% on 150 FT attempts. He could shoot the eyes out of the basket as an embryo.

Houston at 18 yrs shot 12% better from 3 and 15% better FT than Barrett as college freshmen. Talk about comparing a Hyperion to a Satyr…..

Houston had difficulty adjusting to the NBA game as a rookie but by year 2 had it figured out as he blossomed into an above average efficiency player with a TS% of .589. But his college career of 42.4% from 3 over 819 attempts and 84.5% FTs on 767 attempts kinda argued he’d have little trouble scoring the ball once he figured the game out on the next level.

If Barrett’s shooting doesn’t make a miraculous leap he is destined to be precisely what his record says he is……

“Well, Justice Winslow might be the most realistic comp for RJ ”

I hope not……

There are 24 19 year old rookies who shot sub 44% on 2pt shots their rookie year in modern NBA history. 3 of them are currently on the NY Knicks, (2 more have played for the Knicks), and just over half are still active. So it’s not a very robust sample. There are some good active players on there, including maybe the best player in NBA history, Giannis, Bradley Beal and some useful retired guys like Ricky Davis and pandemic cassandra Stephon Marbury. If you expand it to 45% you get a few more guys who learned how to score, including Carmelo and Trevor Ariza. For whatever reason a lot of these dudes have been Knicks.

“RJ made 64% of his FTs after October, which is in line with what he did at Duke & HS and not terrible”

64% FT% in the NBA is not terrible…..WTF? Compared to Wilt or Chris Dudley maybe. It’s terrible in high school FFS! For the record his FT shooting this season placed him 113 of 115 qualified players outshooting Andre Drummond and Steven Adams.

Even if we cherry picked the data as you wished to a whopping 64% that moves him all the way up to 107 of 115!!!!!

That is not terrible??? That’s some curve you grade on to suit a so called argument.

Allan Houston had by far the prettiest jump shot I’ve ever seen. So effortless too. Hubert Davis had a great stroke but he used his legs alot so he really was just a spot up shooter who couldn’t really shoot off the dribble, Houston at his size could shit it from anywhere at any angle over anybody. Would’ve loved to see him play in the current NBA, with an improved shot chart he would’ve been so much better. For his day his TS% for a guard with his usage was very good but if he played today he’d easily be a 60% TS% just by taking more 3pters. Ewing is my favorite player ever but when I played in adult leagues in the mid to late 2000’s I wore number 20 because of Allan Houston, unfortunately I couldn’t shoot like him lol.

if you haven’t seen it yet, free solo is on espn…talk about a different kind of athlete, heck, different kind of human…

Kyrie Irving getting destroyed on Twitter right now…

“64% results in an above average points per possession.

that’s an interesting stat, never thought of it like that…”

Yes…. everyone realizes getting to the line is wonderful. It is more efficient than shooting 40% from 3. The call it the Charity Stripe for a reason. Its a gift…. as long as you collect the gift by making them at a reasonable rate. However shooting 64% from the line leaves a quarter point on the table every trip you make there.

And of course you almost never get a second chance possession from the line where you get a substantial second chance possession when you brick a 3.

I think Barry Goldwater once said, “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. ”

Shooting Free throws at 64% is no virtue no matter how one spins it.

DRed: Also we should really draft someone this year who can fucking shoot.

This I agree with. The last 3 Knicks #1 draft picks were Ntilikina, Knox and Barrett. Not one of them can shoot.

I have a different take on this. The longer basketball is gone the more I am realizing I don’t care and don’t miss it.

wow, so it seems like we’ve interviewed at least six or so head coach candidates…maybe thibs isn’t such a lock…