Knicks vs Hawks – Preseason Game 3

LOL. Great start to the thread!

Interesting that Mitch isn’t starting: DSJr, RJ, Randle, Mook, Portis. Smith runs point for 4 players that weren’t on the team last year.

We are totally going to stay in front of Young I bet….

Dennis got the Mitchitis

I can’t watch the game. From the box score It looks like Smith picked up fouls faster than Mitch does and Frank came in off the bench. Am I right?

no reason to panic we have 24 pg fouls to give

This must be why we hired Payton

Vince Carter older than the combined ages of Knicks on the floor.

some nice moments:

-nice verticality rim help by randle
-smooth driving layup by rj
-normal mitch block but incredible 2nd jump save

Mitch doing Mitch things!

Loving what I’m seeing from RJ despite the poor overall shooting

C’est Bon!

Nice drive and layup from Frenchy, although Trae Young did not offer a lot of resistance there.

Taj Gibson can set screens!

Trying the RJ at lead guard gambit now

Trae Young is getting some bullshit calls if we’re being biased.

Kevin Knox. . .threw a good pass?

Surpassing the number of good passes he had all last season.

Taj Gibson is really a Golden State Warrior in a Knicks’ jersey. I’m glad the Celtics chose Enes Kanter over him.

I really enjoy watching Taj’s game. Just solid all around. He’s looked pretty good shooting threes so far this pre-season (I know this one was really a two, but close enough). If he can keep that up, that adds a lot to our lineups.

Wally comparing Knox to Giannis. Yeah. Right.

Knox doesn’t look all that different to me, physically. Maybe give him a bump up from painfully skinny to twiggish.

RJ doesn’t look great running the pick and roll so far. He keeps nearly getting trapped. Did manage to draw a foul on that last one though.

What crazy shit is that review?

Hawks line is 35 wins I think….

I am looking forward to the second round pick we will get for Taj…

I wish we had a backup C.

I wonder if Willy or KOQ is available? Lol

Cam Reddish is fucking trash he shot 39% from 2pt range in college. 39%!!!

Did we end up signing Thabeet to our 20-man roster? I wouldn’t hate him as a backup center. (Mostly because I’m a UCONN fan)

According to Wally, Marcus Morris is Melo and Kevin Knox plays like Giannis.

Did I miss anything?

@50
Giannis at what age? 8?

Marcus Morris is a two way TH2.

So Vince Carter has 8 points on 5 shots in 9 minutes. Amazing.

Well, the Knicks don’t have a point guard. That sucks.

Torched by Vince. Makes sense.

Frank is still Frank. Inept off the dribble and capable on defense. I thought that was a clean steal on Young (but i am a Frankophile.)

R(PG)J had 4 assists and 0 TOs. That’s perfectly adequate.

The Knicks didn’t have an answer for Trae Young but we haven’t seen Elfrid Payton.

I don’t like when Marcus Morris calls his own number but he’s actually playing good basketball.

He looks like one of those cat clocks.

That was a great steal by Frank. Good steal by Reddish too actually.

And amazing block from Mitch. He’s back baby!

Why are these people yelling at Len?

Yeah this is a sub 30 win team.

I mean, maybe Trae is going to be better than Doncic?

dsj looks like dsj but with a slightly worse hitch in his shot

When RJ Barrett finds a jumper he’ll be an all-star.

Are there any similarities between RJ and Sprewell?

I fucking hate them

It’s just a pre-season thing, right? They aren’t going to play actual games with this bullshit?

Frank is D’ing up here!

if only we could combine our 3 pgs so we had frank’s defense and none of their offense we’d be set

Frank would be so useful if the only point guard thing he had to do was guard other point guards.

great defensive possession before that portis miss, frank has been tough

how is it that portis has as many shot attempts as randle in less minutes?

Wally dropping the knowledge. “Try to foul the guy who isn’t the best free throw shooter.” Man’s a genius.

Frank is still Frank. He’s an “impact” defender that can guard multiple positions and change a game on that side of the ball, but he’s got to to either score better or make more plays to start UNLESS you play him with Barrett and RJ becomes a more efficient scorer/playmaker. Long term we may be fine, but this is probably going to be another frustrating year at guard. We have to be patient. I still have no faith in Fizdale’s offense. It’s not just the players. The offense is garbage.

I was surprised how little Robinson played.

I’ve been very down on Frank, but he may actually be our best pg.

PG who is bad at offense > PG’s bad at offense and defense.

I can see that some people are starting to realize that I may be right about Morris. He does some things well, but he’s a pinhead. That’s why I’ve been kind of negative on him even when he looked good.

I simply do not like DSJr He’s an amazing athlete. Like all special athletes he’s going to do some amazing things and have some great nights that make your hopes soar, but he’s missing something. Part of it is probably basketball IQ, but deep down I just don’t think he cares enough. I just don’t think he can be counted on to play 36 minutes of “hard” high IQ basketball every night. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t think he’s the answer.

PG who is bad at offense > PG’s bad at offense and defense.

Exactly.

He’s not just good on defense. He can change and impact the game on that side without doing much of anything on offense. So you do one of two things.

1. You wait a few years until he’s 23-24 and hope he slowly develops enough on offense to become a key piece on a very good team. It was well known he was a project on offense coming in.

2. You try to create lineups where his shortcomings as a scorer are not that impactful at the team level. The problem here is that we don’t have the star scorers yet. But that doesn’t mean you throw away the impact defender prematurely.

We are years away from being any good. Just keep developing each of these kids that show something very positive on either side, including Frank. It’s the guys that are mediocre on both ends that are a toss.

Frank is still Frank. He’s an “impact” defender that can guard multiple positions and change a game on that side of the ball, but he’s got to to either score better or make more plays to start UNLESS you play him with Barrett and RJ becomes a more efficient scorer/playmaker. Long term we may be fine, but this is probably going to be another frustrating year at guard. We have to be patient. I still have no faith in Fizdale’s offense. It’s not just the players. The offense is garbage.

If you could offer him an extension right now, how much do you think he’d be worth?

I knew coming in that RJ could score inside, make plays, and rebound well for his position. The questions were his outside shot and defense. I was way more worried about his defense because lots of guys develop their outside shot over time. If you are too slow, have a low defensive IQ, and don’t have the motor and desire to defend it’s kind of hopeless. But so far he looks fine to me defensively for a rookie. If he defends the position well, rebounds, make plays, and scores around the basket, he’s got a chance to be a VERY good two way player in a couple of years if that shot improves over time. I’m happy with him so far even though he’s been inefficient.

How much would you have paid him if he had to be re-signed this past summer?

I would have offered something like a 3 for 14 deal with the 3rd year a team option.

Watching lakers-gs and Lebron is the fucking terminator. 6/8 for 18 points and 10 assists in 21 minutes. The Warriors are like a 20 win team if Steph gets hurt.

As good as Frank is on the ball he still commits way too many fouls and, despite his incredible wingspan, is pretty much invisible off of it- not a whole lot in the way of deflections or steals. He’d need to cut down on the fouls and either improve his rebounding or start forcing turnovers to even begin to overcome how bad he is offensively. Right now his ceiling looks like a decent backup and he’s still a pretty long way from that at the moment. I’d pick up his option given his age but he still looks closer to being out of the league than he does to being a good rotation player.

If you could offer him an extension right now, how much do you think he’d be worth?

I’d go the Scientology route and make him sign a billion year contract, cause it could be that long before he’s ready to play in the NBA.

disclaimer: fickle fan fittin to profess…

if my choices for a starting point guard are elfrid payton, dennis smith junior or frank – and, the other 4 guys out on the court are rj, morris, randle, and portis:

100% i would choose frank (granted he could stay healthy)…

i get you sacrifice a lot offensively, particularly your efficiency cuz you’re playing 4 on 5, but – those other four guys came to new york specifically to get buckets…they ain’t gonna miss frank that much on the offense end…

two of them though really suck on defense, another may be okay, and, the fourth is a rookie…

frank made trey give up the ball for most of the 4th…

not only does he stifle our offense, he slows up the other teams offense on any made baskets…

i haven’t seen payton play in a while, but, you can’t play dsj against the other starting unit cuz of his defense…I know he hasn’t played for a while, but…

not sure he’ll accept a role as 2nd or 3rd pg…I wonder if they could trade him…

randle is already starting to give me flashbacks of kanter…

We haven’t seen Payton play that much and he has been pretty bad when he’s been on the floor but he is the best of the PGs on our roster at this time. He has a fairly long track record of Ray Felton-esque mediocre competence. He’s also not a total zero on defense.

It’s a very odd collection of talent on this team, there are almost no good well-rounded players on it. And the coach doesn’t seem like the kind of brainiac that’s gonna get the team to overachieve and grind out wins. It’s probably going to be a long, sometimes boring and ultimately pointless season but I do like watching RJ more than I thought I would.

i hope I’m not wrong, but I’m going to predict that Frank is the starting PG this season. It feels like Fizdale is trying to get there with this “offense” he’s running, which has a ton of Julius Randle as the primary ballhandler. All these minutes with RJ playing PG also points me toward that.

I don’t want to be too hard on DSJ since he’s probably a little rusty, but I honestly don’t know what he does better than Frank right now. He’s a significantly worse defender who is smaller and can’t switch. Whatever this weirdo offense is that Fiz is running doesn’t have him going to the basket. He can’t shoot either ( is it possible his hitch is even worse this year after all the summer training insta-videos?). What exactly would be the benefit of starting him — just based on what we’ve seen? Because he can dunk the ball with a runway to the basket? Again – I don’t want to make too much of 20 minutes of his first preseason game, but it was… not promising.

I honestly would want to see a starting lineup of Frank, RJ, Morris, Randle, and Mitch. That’s probably your best defensive lineup (except maybe trading Taj for Randle but that is giving up too much on offense). That’s a ton of length and has 3 plausible ballhandlers even if none of them is that great at it. It probably doesn’t have enough shooting. But again, I’m not sure what DSJ or Payton do that would make that better.

Also Trier needs more time. For pete’s sake play RJ 30 min rather than 39 and throw Trier some minutes. IF you’re going to run iso-ball for entire quarters at a time, at least do it with a dude that is a great iso player.

btw – while saying I have no idea what we’re trying to accomplish on offense, I though the defense was actually quite good. Atlanta is going to be a good offensive team, and they played their main guys pretty much the same minutes they’ll play in the regular season (Trae 34 minutes, Collins 30 minutes, etc) and we held them to an ORtg of 100.

Also I thought in the limited minutes RJ was the playing and guarding the 1, he did a decent job on defense trying to guard Trae.

I think we know where Draymond Green would fall in the Frank argument:

“Yeah, I don’t think there was ever a doubt that he was a legitimate NBA player… I think he’s been in some pretty tough situations. No one ever blames the situation, though. It’s always the kid. No one ever blames these shitty franchises.”

“[People] always want to blame the kid,” Green continued. “It’s not always the kid’s fault. He’s getting older now, so he’s not a kid anymore. But he came into this league as a kid, but it’s never the organization’s fault. It’s always that guy. So I’m happy he’s gotten the opportunity show what he can really do because it’s a prime example. But no one will still blame any organizations. It’ll always be the kid’s fault, and it will be the next kid that comes in’s fault and the next kid after that. So I’m happy he’s gotten this opportunity.”

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27863544/draymond-green-says-teams-deserve-more-blame-top-picks-pan-out

its not just that frank is bad… hes bad in a way that usually means he will always be bad…

They’re kind of playing 90’s ball isn’t it? Dribble two thirds of the court, pass to someone in the post, watch him do his iso and hope something good comes out of it.

Taking a player like Portis, who is bad in exactly the ways that make dumb teams think he’s good, and elevating him above Mitch is so perfectly Knicksy that I can’t believe I didn’t see it coming. We were all such fools to think the organization saw the potential in Mitch.

Between that and the fact that even with a much more “real” NBA team this year we’re still evincing absolutely no coherent plan whatsoever on offense I’m basically done with Fiz at this point. What are this guy’s strengths as a coach supposed to be again?

Morris surprised me a little bit. He plays more like a small forward than I realized.

Frank played great defense. He’s got such a narrow skill set but it’s one i absolutely love.

Portis is going to drive me crazy all season.

The only reason to have Mitch on the bench is to cap his value before we sign him to a long term extension. It’s insane that anyone thinks we have anyone more deserving of minutes than him. Impeach Fizdale just for that.

I’d be pretty happy if I were a Hawks fan. They aren’t great but they have Vince Carter and they have a very realistic trajectory to relevance. If i were a big name free agent I would definitely give them a listen with the pieces they have accumulated.

I’ve read some research that suggests that guys who are defended by Frank turn the ball over at a much higher rate than normal, which would be one way Frank has a defense impact that’s not necessarily apparent in the box score.

As the main piece of the KP trade, I have to think it’s DSJ’s job to lose, even though I don’t think he’s good. Trier would probably be the best backcourt match for RJ, but that clearly isn’t happening for some reason. And I still don’t think Fiz knows what the hell to do with Frank.

Such a mess. I just hope he settles on starters soon and doesn’t fiddle with the lineup all year again – that just hurts everyone. I’m guessing he’ll land on DSJ/RJ/Morris/Randle/Mitch but who knows…

So who’s now the biggest name/talent likely to be available at mid-season?

CP3 is the biggest name, he’s clearly as available as can be, and when healthy he’s still really good, but his salary number is just so freaking big it’s really hard to even find legal trades with him even ignoring that even for teams in win now mode that contract is terrifying. At some point I had the thought that it would be really cool to see him back on the Clips as they chase a title, and CP3 for Lou Williams and Harkless seems like kind of a workable framework until you realize the Clips still would need to send out like 15M more in salary to make the numbers add up. So he may be stuck in OKC.

That leaves Love as maybe the biggest name? I think he’s probably a little underrated at this point. With all of the title favorites this year looking more likely to be a normal year level of really good (as opposed to all-time best team level like the Warriors were the last few years) his defensive weaknesses seem a lot more manageable to me, and his shooting+passing from the 4 spot still can be super valuable on offense. I presume he’s very available.

The Toronto guys (Lowry, Gasol, Ibaka) can probably all be had for the right price and all could be important starters for the right title contender. I also really like our old friend Gallo as a potentially interesting fit on a lot of teams.

Taking a player like Portis, who is bad in exactly the ways that make dumb teams think he’s good, and elevating him above Mitch is so perfectly Knicksy that I can’t believe I didn’t see it coming. We were all such fools to think the organization saw the potential in Mitch.

I think – well, hope – it’s just Fiz sending Mitch a message that him being a starter and his minutes are not a given. I applaud Fiz’s action if that’s his intent. I have the sense that Mitch has started to lose focus (much like Shump after his rookie outing) in terms of all his extracurricular activity.

Between that and the fact that even with a much more “real” NBA team this year we’re still evincing absolutely no coherent plan whatsoever on offense

Surprised they’re not executing more PnR. Randle is able to play either role and we know about Mitch. An interesting question is whether a lineup of Frank/RJ/Morris/Randle/Mitch could generate enough offense using heavy PnR. Last year our best lineup was Frank/THJ/Dot/Vonleh/Mitch in 93 minutes with a plus net rating against opponents’ starters. The concern however was that it wasn’t sustainable because of lack of offensive punch. Maybe Randle would help in shot creation but the offense would have much worse 3 ball shooting (Vonleh was on fire from 3 at that time). I’m kinda optimistic about RJ’s ability to hit spot up 3’s at a high enough % (though prob not this year) and bewildered about Frank who I’ve read hits his 3’s in practice.

Fiz did say he wants his 1 guard to be a threat, to be able to put pressure on the opponents, so I doubt he will give that lineup much burn.

That leaves Love as maybe the biggest name? I think he’s probably a little underrated at this point.

He’s 31 and makes about $30M a year until he’s 35. Hard pass.

As good as Frank is on the ball he still commits way too many fouls

Patrick Beverley has averaged a career 4 fouls/36; Frank is at 3.9/36. When you’re guarding the opposing 1’s and navigating picks, you’re gonna foul at a higher rate than SGs/SFs/PFs.

He’d need to cut down on the fouls and either improve his rebounding or start forcing turnovers to even begin to overcome how bad he is offensively.

His rebounding improved in the FIBA tournament and through the first preseason games. He averaged 2.6 rebounds in 19 MPG in the recent FIBA. In the first 3 NBA preseason games: 3 in 21 minutes, 3 in 19 minutes, and 3 in 19 minutes. It’s important that he rebound and then push in transition since Mitch is not a great outlet passer. Let’s hope his better rebounding is not just noise. BTW RJ should be great at that a la Kidd.

I think – well, hope – it’s just Fiz sending Mitch a message that him being a starter and his minutes are not a given. I applaud Fiz’s action if that’s his intent. I have the sense that Mitch has started to lose focus (much like Shump after his rookie outing) in terms of all his extracurricular activity.

That’s a good thought but it’s just so easy for me to see Fiz being seduced by Portis. He’s a “scorer” and god knows Fiz likes his scorers. If Fiz was trying to send a message about focus I would’ve expected the starter in his place to be the grizzled vet in Taj. And the fact that only 10 guys played last night makes me think we’re no longer in random preseason tinker mode and are now drilling down towards what the actual rotation/lineups are going to be. At this point my money is on Portis being the starting C to open the season.

I think we only have one more preseason game, maybe two, am I right? If so, it is time to start cutting down rotations and getting closer to what you’ll do in the season.

I haven’t been able to watch all preseason, but I agree about Portis from what I did see. He wasn’t good. On the other hand, Mitch didn’t do as much as I would have hoped either.

Yeah just one more game tomorrow against the Zions.

That’s a good thought but it’s just so easy for me to see Fiz being seduced by Portis. He’s a “scorer” and god knows Fiz likes his scorers. If Fiz was trying to send a message about focus I would’ve expected the starter in his place to be the grizzled vet in Taj.

This is what scared me so much. I think Fiz is still the same useless coach of last year (I mean, it’s preseason, but couldn’t you draw a fucking play in the last two minutes instead of letting people hoist threes like they didn’t care?) with the same annoying warts.

New improved Frank is shooting .111 from 3PT and a sizzling .286 from the floor. He’s gotten to the line 3 times in 63 minutes.

63 minutes!

Let’s see, what might be the difference between Mitch and Willy Hernangomez? What ever could that be? What makes them not similar as players?

Three guesses.

Comparing Mitch and Wily as hypebeasts is just ridiculous. Mitch is a generational shotblocker and has all the tools you could ever want to become a DPOY candidate. And then has all of Wily’s offensive potential on top.

I think Mitch is in for a very lean year. People were looking to feed him the ball last year. I don’t think that is going to happen much with the personnel we have. The best way to get the ball from some of these guys would be a chisel.

But I think he still is the best prospect we have had since Ewing.

I’m already in Ranger mode for my winter’s entertainment.

Besides the money they spent on Randle who is a still quite young better than average NBA player, the remaining 60 M they spent is just an effort to get from 17 wins to 28. Morris is a nice player but he has no future here @30 and doesn’t move the needle. Portis/Gibson/Ellington/Patyon/ Bullock will help them win an extra game a month or something like that.

That 60M would have been better spent facilitating trades. I don’t believe they actually thought they were in the running for Durant and Kyrie late in the playoffs and could have facilitate trades by acquiring draft assets.

They just should have played Knox/Frank/Dotson/Iggy/DSJr/Trier/Wooten/Hinton along side Mitch /Randle and Barrett and saw what happened…. They’d lose > 60 games probably…. but would you rather see Portis/Morris /Gibson/Payton play and lose 53???

Not me…..

We’re starting to see some of the brickheadedness of the “bring in glue guy vets” strategy. Let the kids play, let them develop. Bring in a vet or two at key positions if you really want to work the whole “mentor” angle.

Instead we have heroball Marcus Morris and the infinitely crummy Bobby Portis out there eating into the kids’ playing time.

This is probably going to be (another) annoying season.

look, i agree the mitch/whg comparison is silly, but i think mitch’s performance in summer league and the preseason does merit a mild amount of panic. the mitch gobert comparisons aren’t really ideal bc gobert got much smarter very quickly. very early returns on 2019 mitch looks no more refined than the worst of 2018 mitch. he is playing defense like an eight foot cornerback, he whiffs on basically every pick (not talking about the slip screens) he’s supposed to set, and he is still making his worst risk reward decisions when it comes to leaving his feet.

mitch can still be damn good even if he doesn’t get any smarter, especially if he is used intelligently by a coach and pg who don’t waste his rim running. but if he doesn’t make a big jump from the dumbest player on the court at all times it would definitely limit my delusions of elite grandeur for him. it’s only a few games but i’m slightly worried.

Just so it’s clear, I know it’s the internet and all, but there was no WHG “comparison.” It was noted pretty explicitly that Mitch is better than Willy, which he is. That said, Mitch’s value around here is overstated because of the double leap from good TS%/low usage/low minutes to numbers/36 minutes to “wow, look at his numbers per 36 minutes.” People did the same thing with Willy. Didn’t work then, likely doesn’t work now.

When a guy plays low minutes on a crap team, the other teams don’t really give a crap about what he does against them — this goes for offense, too — and so the guy gets to do a bunch of stuff that he wouldn’t be able to do if the other team actually cared about negating those things. Nobody on the other teams gave a crap about ensuring that Mitchell Robinson didn’t do good things against them, because it didn’t matter to anything.

I think Mitch is in for a very lean year. People were looking to feed him the ball last year. I don’t think that is going to happen much with the personnel we have. The best way to get the ball from some of these guys would be a chisel.

lol good line

The only thing left to root for is for Dallas to suck and that might be difficult……

I love luka and I think KP will be good in Dallas, but they have a very high bar to get over to get into the playoffs in the western conference. Right now they slot as a borderline playoff team at best in the conference – right now I feel like the locks for the playoffs are: Lakers, Clips, Rockets, Jazz, Nuggets, Spurs. Then you have the Warriors, who I assume will make it just because Curry and Draymond are so good. Blazers I guess. Then I think the Pelicans are better than Dallas. Sacramento may sneak in there as well. I think it’s entirely possible Dallas is in the lottery the next 2+ years.

Re: Frank – I’m a believer. Give me Frank, RJ, Morris, Randle, and Mitch to start the season and I’ll be happy.

Meanwhile – I…kinda thought Knox looked kinda good?

I think it’s good to remember that this team is primarily made up of rentals and most of these vets, even Randle, are stopgaps… And that’s a good thing!

Yes, it’s a bummer that the only 2 long-term pieces we have in place are Mitch and (probably) RJ, but I don’t think it’s bad that DSJ, Knox, Frank and the other kids will get limited minutes because, let’s be honest, they aren’t good and won’t become good. They were bad picks.

Ideally, they can move a combo of vets and/or bad kids for a disgruntled star (or at least a good, youngish role player/starter). I think that’s the only real point of these contracts tbh.

But yeah, if Fiz/Perry don’t see the value of Mitch (which I think they do) then they have bigger problems…

@165. With you, Bob. This winter is KAAPO KAAKO SZN.

This is a scorching hot take. You think the dude played his 1,360 minutes primarily against players mailing it in, most of whom are fighting for their next contracts in a league rapidly moving toward the NFL/MLB strategy of “pay the superstars, fuck the rest of ’em?”

Doesn’t something have to be a “take” to be a “hot take”?

I think he played his 1,360 minutes for an awful team that other teams could toy with and still beat, that never thought for a single solitiary second about game planning or strategizing to help ensure that Mitchell Robinson’s strengths didn’t contribute to them losing a game to the Knicks. Players by the dozens have put up hollow or potentially hollow numbers because of this phenomenon in the 20+ years I’ve been an avid NBA fan. That isn’t a “take” because there’s no serious sense in which it requires re-litigation.

Players by the dozens have put up hollow or potentially hollow numbers because of this phenomenon in the 20+ years I’ve been an avid NBA fan. That isn’t a “take” because there’s no serious sense in which it requires re-litigation.

Funny because even amongst these players by the dozen, exactly zero players put up the kinds of #s Mitch did in terms of impact on the defensive end (by DBPM), blocks, and offensive efficiency. You would think that in the 20+ years you’ve been an NBA fan, some undeserving schmo should have been able to do it. But you’d be wrong if you thought that.

My sense is that before you propose something as incontrovertible that you actually look and see whether what you’re saying is true in fact or only true in your mind?

Doesn’t something have to be a “take” to be a “hot take”?

If you’re saying that you were stating fact rather than lobbing conjecture — well, that’s another hot take.

And yes, I am also lobbing conjecture (i.e. that players play hard for ego’s sake), but plausibility matters here.

Edit: Frank beat me to it

Here’s the list of players in NBA history to have shot better from the field than Mitch in a season they played at least 1000 minutes:
Wilt Chamberlain
DeAndre Jordan

That’s it. He also was the best shot blocker in the league. Nobody in NBA history has put up hollow numbers like that.

Does anyone have any evidence that the average NBA team is making significant structural changes to their offensive or defensive systems to contain individual players during the regular season? When a team plays 3 games in a week, how much time are they spending:

(1) reviewing game tape
(2) developing strategies
(3) communicating those strategies to players
(4) practicing those unique strategies between playing, say, the Grizzlies on Monday and the Magic on Wednesday

Not a rhetorical question. I’m genuinely asking how efficacious it would be to have players “thinking” on the court, rather than responding and adapting on the fly.

I know that these things happen, but the idea that the average player is being game-planned for in December seems a little much. More likely to me is that the average team has schemes to contain types of players for regular-season games.

There are plenty of videos of teams using particular schemes against guys like Curry, or figuring out ways to stymie, say, his high-screen action with Draymond from a few seasons back, but mostly I have to believe that they are taught intuitive gameplans that can be carried from Curry to Lillard to John Wall.

Playoffs? Completely different story.

Here’s the list of players in NBA history to have shot better from the field than Mitch in a season they played at least 1000 minutes:
Wilt Chamberlain
DeAndre Jordan

So 2018-19 Mitchell Robinson “shot better from the field” than, say, 1988-89 Michael Jordan? I get the basis for the claim, but reasonable minds might differ on that one.

So 2018-19 Mitchell Robinson “shot better from the field” than, say, 1988-89 Michael Jordan? I get the basis for the claim, but reasonable minds might differ on that one.

He literally did. But no one’s going to argue that they’d rather have 2018-19 Mitch for a single season instead of ’89 MJ, for oh-so-many reasons.

We don’t have enough nice things to be shitting on Mitch.

I literally don’t know what you’re talking about. Frank is literally the only guy who makes the correct rotations on defense.

Sometimes! Not always. I’ll try and keep a log next game, depending on where I see it ect, of his off ball lapses. He’s a great on ball defender, no question! But it’s not exactly novel to be questioning if the totality of his defense isn’t that amazing. It looks like maybe he’s improving his rebounding which would be great.

What’s so especially stupid about this is that Mitch played starter’s minutes the last month of last season and, shock of all shock, his numbers translated very well, like most players do. E, it’s like you’re trying to say the emperor has no clothes when he’s rocking a really sweet outfit. Your “not a take but obviously is a take” just seems like contrarian bullshit.

New improved Frank is shooting .111 from 3PT and a sizzling .286 from the floor. He’s gotten to the line 3 times in 63 minutes.

I don’t think folks are fooling themselves as to what frank offers on the offensive end – but, based on who the other four guys out on the court are, frank fits in the starting unit…

We don’t have enough nice things to be shitting on Mitch.

I agree with that, so I will stop. While I am writing what I believe, the despondency of the organization’s status on the eve of the upcoming season is probably what’s making me write it, rather than just think it. And I want to be completely wrong. Carry on.

mitch is not being overrated…. i think if you think the upside is bill russell or shaq then i think that’s overrated yea but i think most ppl believe he can be somewhere between chandler.. gobert.. deandre jordon…

that’s a very very valuable guy…. and yea all the beyond the box score stuff is very valuable especially within the context of defense…. but that’s where every young player struggles… you simply do not see the volume of pick and roll and the level of ball handlers anywhere else in the world… the rotations and the way you need to react quickly is a very hard thing to grasp….

the move that trae put on mitch for that nifty layup… that’s an nba caliber move… and while mitch isn’t gonna block that shot all the time or even frequently… the more he sees it the more he can eventually get to a place where trae gets scared even attempting it…. gobert even with years of experience was kind of shocked at how quick zion got up…

that’s where mitch struggles with but nobody really gets it at this age… you just need time and hope it come.s.. that’s the difference between someone like ed davis.. who’s very good but not necessarily a defensive anchor and… deandre jordan… who started horrendous on defense but eventually became pretty good altho not like gobert…

1. Got an offensive rebound and assist to a Portis dunk.
2. Made Young give up the ball, ATL TO.
3. Made Young give up the ball, then got an offensive foul from Carter, ATL TO.
4. Stopped Young from penetrating, Young found Collins for an open made 3.
5. Blocked Young, NY ball.
6. Made Young give up the ball, Reddish contested missed J.
7. Shot a bad step back 3 with 14 on the clock, up by 1. Totally stupid, but shows much needed confidence.
8. Young found Carter for an open made 3. Not Frank’s fault.
9. Made Young give up the ball, ATL missed shot.
10. Made Young give up the ball. On the same possession, Frank stole the inbounds pass.
11. On the game’s last possession got to an OFF rebound, couldn’t hold on to the ball and created a 50/50 chance for NY to get it (ended up ATL ball).

^ on the one hand, there NO WAY that guy can’t play in this league.

On the other hand, there is NO WAY this guy can play in this league:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/ntilila01.html

Guy is a fucking conundrum of the highest magnitude.

Per 36 numbers:

Mitch as a 20-year-old rookie: 12.8 points, 11.2 rebounds, 4.3 blocks, 1.4 steals, .9 turnovers, 5.7 fouls, shooting 69% on just under eight shots a game.

Nerlens Noel as a 20-year-old rookie: 11.6 points, 9.5 rebounds, 2.2 blocks, 2.1 steals, 2.3 turnovers, 3.2 fouls, shooting 46% on just over 10 shots a game.

That people lose their damn minds around here over “probably better than Nerlens Noel” says it all about how bad the Knicks have been and how long they’ve been that way.

Mike

Robinson is a different case than Frank.

He has enormous athletic talent and scores well on boxsore models, but he’s extremely limited offensively right now and has no idea what he’s doing on either side of the ball. He’s utterly clueless. He’s nowhere near as good as what the models are saying. He’s not a starting C on a good team. He’d get eaten alive against top teams and top players. The thing is, there’s so much untapped potential there on both sides of the ball, you have to feel great about what he can bring to the table eventually if he develops and more importantly learns how to play on either side, let alone both.

David Fizdale said Frank Ntilikina will likely be held out Friday and Elfird Payton and Dennis Smith Jr. will likely get the minutes at PG vs. NOP. The rationale is to see all 3 PGs equally during preseason. Allonzo Trier will play with the second unit Friday, Fizdale says.

I suspect anyone who places a bet on DSJ as our starting PG would do well for themselves.

Mitch as a 20-year-old rookie: 12.8 points, 11.2 rebounds, 4.3 blocks, 1.4 steals, .9 turnovers, 5.7 fouls, shooting 69% on just under eight shots a game.

Nerlens Noel as a 20-year-old rookie: 11.6 points, 9.5 rebounds, 2.2 blocks, 2.1 steals, 2.3 turnovers, 3.2 fouls, shooting 46% on just over 10 shots a game.

This is what we call a “self-own.”

Yeah, you sure showed us, Mike, Mitch only had almost two more rebounds, twice as many blocks, fewer than half as many turnovers and only a scant 23% higher shooting percentage than Nerlens Noel.

I’m gonna do a side-by-side comparison showing how Mike Trout is “maybe” better than Randal Grichuk.

I suspect anyone who places a bet on DSJ as our starting PG would do well for themselves.

I know management wants to justify they got an actual player for KP but Jesus did he look awful last night.; I mean so awful watching the game I said to myself, “Now what exactly does this guy do well???”

I understand he’s coming off an injury, but they practiced for two weeks and he supposedly was actually doing work during the off season so missing a week shouldn’t have hurt him THAT much.

His inability to stay anywhere near Tre last night was stunning.

Fantastic finish from Trae Young against Mitchell Robinson: pic.twitter.com/YEiDgqWCI9— Jeff Siegel (@jgsiegel) October 17, 2019

I have no idea if this tweet is going to embed but what I’m trying to link is a tweet with the play djphan referenced. Mitch switches onto Trae, stops him from attempting a 3, gets beat, and then recovers enough to force trae into taking a fairly difficult layup. Trae makes the shot, but how many centers in the NBA can get force a very shifty point guard off the 3 point line and contest their shot at the rim?

Kevin Knox still playing like Kevin Knox. Very underwhelmed by his supposed improvement over last year. He has perfected the out of control head down drive to the basket praying for a foul while throwing up a wild shot that has zero chance of going in the basket.

Isn’t Fizdale responsible for doing some coaching to improve the play of these young guys? So far no results that would indicate this is actually happening.

This team will have the worst point guard rotation in the league again this year.

I think it’s fair to say about Mitch that what’s potentially special about him is his defense, which is notoriously hard to evaluate. If he never “gets it” on defense, then the offense is only medium intriguing – low usage, high efficiency rim runners with bad defense ain’t nothing, but guys like that are basically bench Cs and a lot of them are available at low cost – Noel, Javale, Khem Birch. Yes, you can argue that’s his baseline; he put up impressive efficiency stats for that kind of player even last year as a rookie, but low minutes, low usage, I don’t think his offense is different enough from those guys to carry him. On the other end of the spectrum, if he’s a DPOY level C then the same baseline offensive profile makes him Rudy Gobert, aka an all-NBA level C.

So that leaves you with the defense. I think it’s pretty undeniable that Mitch’s defensive upside is special. The block % alone will tell you that, as will any number of highlight plays. He does things few guys can do. I also think it’s pretty clear that he doesn’t have a great idea what he’s doing a lot of the time. The models that use box score priors tend to think he’s already a great defender, some other systems don’t; scouting consensus seems much more towards the latter. There’s also the small problem that being a great per minute defender isn’t as meaningful if you can’t stop fouling.

So I think reasonable evaluations of him stem from already a stud who just needs to play more to a pretty intriguing prospect who still needs to turn his defensive potential to production. I lean more towards the latter camp but defense is really tricky.

I don’t have a problem with making the bear case on Mitch. There is no way to look at his numbers from last year and realistically expect them to improve. They were that good. And his defense is a bit, uh, ragged at times, no question about it.

Still, if your floor is a non-crazy JaVale Mcgee or Nerlens Noel, that’s really not the worst thing in the world. People always act as if efficient pogo sticks are a dime a dozen but it’s not actually as easy to find effective rebounders/defenders who can score at a 60% ts% as people seem to think.

Speaking of which, what is the story with Khem Birch. His numbers look pretty solid. What’s the catch?

Further evidence of us living in the shittiest timeline (as if we needed more) — I idiotically read Pitchfork’s top 200 albums list for the past decade.

Some sins i’m seeing off the top:

No Ariel Pink — and these guys were all over Before Today’s nuts.
Cardi B’s album is higher than The Suburbs
Frank Ocean Blonde is #1?? Nostalgia Ultra wasn’t even listed and is imo his seminal work….

At least for THCJ Weyes Blood is up there…

@205 in a game of hot potato, the potato moves real well

Zion out for the preseason finale with knee soreness.

Quick Yankees note:

Still no Stanton. Wish we were carrying Trauchman.

A more sensible lineup, though:

1 DJ
2 Judge
3 Hicks
4 Gleyber
5 EE
6 Gardner
7 Sanchez
8 Gio
9 Didi

I’m just not an EE guy. He looks like an overmatched 36 year old out there. I’d rather bet on Gary breaking out or put Voit in at DH.

Again, please make this post age terribly.

Let’s cut the shit on Mitch.
The kid was still playing in the Summer League. He’s still developing his skills. Patience & Faith are required.

Knox looks better. More ‘in control’.Lets see how much improved he’ll be this season.

Frank looks energised, decisive and aggressive. I Want His Best Version Here.

RJ is Legit.

Portis looks … VERY expensive.

Zion out for the preseason finale with knee soreness.

I’d be pretty pissed if I paid primo $$ for tickets

One week ago i was thinking of posting something like “what are the odds of Frank starting on season opener’ semi-sarcastically but after 3 preseason games Frankie looks to me like the best of our pgs.
Elfrid looks drugged, DSJ looks ‘too cool to play D’ but Frank looks poised and ready to bleed for the job.
Let’s wait and see…

“Knox looks better. More ‘in control’.”

My DVR must have mis-recorded Knox’s possessions I guess.

@240
Watch again Knox’s 2018-19 deathride drives (with a puke bucket available) and you ll be fully convinced on the use of “better” and “more ‘in control’ “.Trust me !

There’s definitely a recency and popularity bias in the pitchfork rankings. Deathgrips is too underground/alternative to do well in this kind of list.

People love Frank Ocean. I never listened to him much, but a lot of people list him as their favorite artist.

I don’t appreciate popular music much, several of my favorite albums didn’t make the list which does not surprise me at all.

Frank looks poised and ready to bleed for the job.

i don’t know if there’s a stat for it – but, there it is…

@246
There’s the stat of our heart !
Whenever Frank gets in, BPM goes up !!!

The D’angelo and Solange records were amazing, though. Worthy of top-10 slots for sure.

knew your knicks – too funny 🙂

almost embarrassed to say – not sure I can name a single “album” (what are they even called nowadays?) recording since 2010…man I’m old…

got tix the other day though to see jerry cantrell at the pico union project (this small community church in downtown la) in december…

I can’t remember the last time I was this excited to see a show…I’ve heard some good church choirs sing before, but yeah, give me gone and 31/32 in the house of god…

Wiggins voiced his displeasure with not being in the top 100 players today. He backed it up with a smooth running 4-18 shooting night with 2 rebounds and one assist. What a player and what a contract.

Boards of Canada are on my check list.
Check out Lifeforms by Future Sound of London
&
In Sides by Orbital
If you like trippy & smart electronic music.

Porzingis looks a LOT closer to being mentally ready to compete at a high level that I would have guessed. It usually takes these ACL guys half a season or more to get comfortable. He’s taking contact at both ends without fear and playing very well. The added strength is clearly helping. As soon as he and Doncic figure out how to work together that’s going to one hell of a fun team to watch in coming years.

How does anyone watch the NFL?

I’ve asked that question my entire life.

IF you will be picking first in NBA fantasy draft, who would you pick?
My top choices are STEPH, HARDEN, OR GIANNIS.

I don’t want AD and KAT.

Thoughts?

Oh man, here we go again with the next big 3 rumors…

Apparently KAT, Booker and Russell all want to get on the same team and are all nyc fans.

Apparently KAT, Booker and Russell all want to get on the same team and are all nyc fans.

As much of a mess as we are, hard pass on that.

Begley suggests that some players on the team are already unhappy with the rotations and their place in it. Trier seems the most obvious suspect at the moment, but I imagine we’re going to be seeing a lot more of this as the season comes along, either from the kids who’ve been elbowed out by mediocre vets or all the guys who’ll be free agents again this summer and can’t get any playing time.

Fun! Like everything else about being a Knicks fan!

It’s been pretty surprising to me that Fiz has kept the rotations so tight in the preseason so far, really only playing 10 guys in each game for the most part. With how flat the talent distribution is on this team I thought we might see more guys than that in the rotation to start the regular season, let alone the preseason. If that pattern continues it’s going to be really, really interesting to see who’s playing once the games start counting because those grumblings are only going to get louder.

IF you will be picking first in NBA fantasy draft, who would you pick?
My top choices are STEPH, HARDEN, OR GIANNIS.

I don’t want AD and KAT.

Thoughts?

Depends. Is it a league that counts the percentage as well as the number of 3s? If so, yeah I’d lean Steph. If not, then you have to pick Giannis. Giannis gives you everything except 3 related stats. Harden’s going to have something affected due to Westbrook’s presence.

Truth is with fantasy, you have to know which category you want to punt and which ones you want to go all in with.

If 3s is the category you want to focus on, go Curry, If 3s is the one you’re willing to punt, then Giannis.

This sucks. Woj:

A severe injury has been ruled out for Zion Williamson’s right knee, but he is expected to miss period of weeks to start regular season, league sources tell ESPN. Pels are clearly treating injury with an abundance of caution but there’s no shortage of confidence on full recovery.