Ian Begley parsed an excellent interview by Chris Henderson with Dennis Smith Jr. over at SNY.
The key quote is Smith talking about how important it is for him to help RJ Barrett win Rookie of the Year, “I’m treating that as one of my focal points just to help him win Rookie of the Year. And whatever I can do, I’m willing to do it. It’s important for us and it’s important for our team and it’s important for our morale moving forward, so I think it would be major if he won that.”
Smith also acknowledged the chip on his shoulder from the Porzingis trade, “I feel like I’ve got something to prove, chip on my shoulder still. So I’ve just been working, man. I try to attack every day and look at it as if I didn’t leave anything on the table, I got the most out of every day. That’s how I’ve been attacking each day this summer and so far it’s been paying off for me so I’m going to keep that going, bring it in to training camp and be a leader. Lead by example, earn my respect with these guys and then carry that into the season.”
Good stuff. It probably doesn’t mean anything, but hey, better to hear it than not hear it, right?
220 replies on “SNY.com: Knicks’ Dennis Smith Jr. says helping RJ Barrett win Rookie of the Year is one of his season goals”
@250 Hubert – from last thread
Today’s news about Domingo German is actually more upsetting.
Yeah, it’s been bad enough having to grimace every time Chapman comes in to pitch, knowing the circumstances under which he first joined the Yankees. That German is now involved in a domestic incident is a huge bummer. The Yankees have been my sports refuge of late, not only because they’re better than the other teams I root for (like the one that brought us together here), but because, Chapman aside, I don’t have to spend a lot of time thinking about toxic ownership, CTE, bad behavior, etc.
Slapping your girlfriend in front of a league official is so dumb that I’m shocked that a Knick never did it.
Taking the discussion back to DSJ, like Brian says, offseason talk doesn’t amount to much. But it’s nonetheless promising that Smith’s publicly stated goal isn’t about his own accolades, but setting up a teammate. The kind of mentality you want out of your point guard, whether or not this guy is good enough to live up to those words.
1) Fuck Domingo German I hope he gets the book thrown at him
2) I am now downright terrified about the state of the Yankees’ pitching staff entering the playoffs
Supposedly he did it at the CC Sabathia dinner – in front of Joe Torre, who happens to have founded the “Safe At Home Foundation”, an organization that is combating domestic violence. Talk about stupid.
Yeah. I think German needs to be put on ice for a bit.
No. The Yankees are NOT in trouble…yet. JA Happ, Severino and Montgomery are all still in the pipeline for starts. It’s not ideal to lose a 18 game winner, but it is what it is.
This is one of the worst full-time starters of the 2019 MLB season, a great pitcher who has pitched 4 innings in the last 10 months, and a decent pitcher who has pitched 2 innings in the last 10 months.
I wasn’t expecting much from German anyways. He was, at best, going to be starting Game 4.
Lindsey Adler’s latest update is that the German DV incident took place at his home, not at CC’s gala in front of an MLB official. I think it’ll take a little longer for a clear picture of what happened to come out.
I know I need to not get fooled by talk or workout videos or FIBA performances. But outside of the larger media saying this off season was a failure and bringing up old history with Derrick Rose, I’m getting A LOT of positive vibes from within the organization right now. Talk is cheap but everyone is saying the right things and there’s a lot more of it than in years past. The vets brought in are talking about playing their roles, guys are talking about coming off the bench, young players are acknowledging what they specifically need to work on, they’re working out and scrimmaging together. I just have a good feeling about this season. It may not translate into the playoffs but maybe, just maybe, the culture is indeed changing. We shall see…
How do you get something like this THAT wrong?
If the effort on the court looks anything like the comments DSJ, Randle, and Barrett have made this Summer, this could be a fun team to root for regardless of the record. Baby steps
If the allegation is true, there is no bigger disgrace in this story than Domingo German.
But Bob Klapisch is pretty disgraceful, too. His lie got half way around the world before Adler read the report. You can’t hide behind “I’m told…” You’re a reporter. Verify or STFU.
I hope we don’t have a situation where we find out he did it but he can still pitch because he appeals. I don’t think I’d be able to watch the Yanks this october if that happens.
Sports writers racing to be the 1st on Twitter
Knicks players have been saying the right things for years. It doesn’t mean a thing. Some of the young players will either blossom or they won’t, but either way, despite having a few good young pieces to work with after all this rebuilding starting with KP, we are still a LONG way from being a serious team because of the mistakes of the last 2 years. And most importantly, we have a management team that does not understand basketball. So we can assume they will make another obvious draft error or possibly drive another player away on the path to becoming a very good team.
The problem is not so much where we are but that the people driving the car don’t know how to drive it or where to go. Smart players will know that and either not come or want out unless they are overpaid.
Probably, but I really liked the idea of him as a bullpen option, especially with Betances down for the count (which rips my fucking heart out for so many reasons, by the way).
Yeah, I feel awful for Betances.
Achilles injuries seem so arbitrary that I suspect there’s some genetic predictors at play. It’s the reason I don’t play my shitty brand of ball anymore. I have a few friends who have come back from soccer and rugby achilles tears and I never want to do that rehab myself. Really sucks for Betances.
it’s kind of crazy to think that it’s taken this long for domestic violence to have the importance it now has in regard to player behavior…
not hard to realize just how meaningless the games are in comparison to the effect domestic violence has on family members…
the one that probably upset me the most personally was the torture techniques adrian peterson used on his son…that shit was really evil…
to be honest, i had kind of forgotten about chapman’s situation (one of my favorite current players – what does that say about me)…how to judge and rank offensive and intolerable behavior manifested as violence against others…at what point does rehabilitation, redemption or forgiveness take place, if at all…
good to see that the different sports leagues just don’t base their discipline solely on the rulings of the judicial system…no doubt a good lawyer can “seemingly” wash away a lot of sins…
who knows how many of the athletes from the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s i watched and rooted for where involved in similar repugnant behavior…
the ray rice situation/vid was fucked up – but, hopefully it may help other families to avoid similar situations…
sadly, known detrimental consequences may be the only thing to help inhibit (to some small degree) domestic violence…
sad to hear about german (for his families sake), but, hopefully it’ll give some other individual pause before they strike out…
right on, geo
my dad was 6’3″ 200 plus, mean and physical with substance abuse and depression issues…thankfully wasn’t around a whole bunch to do too much damage to myself or my sister…
always made me smile though to think he never laid a hand on my 5’2” latina mom…when i asked her about that when i was older – she told me she let him know that if he ever touched her she’d stab in his sleep…to her credit, he believed her…i believe her too…
not everyone can defend themselves like that though…i guess just like it “takes a village to raise a child” – takes a society to help protect those whom have a right to be safe…which is everyone…
geo, you are the man! whenever the kb knowitalls rile me up, you always bring me back down to earth. thanks, bro!
I don’t know z-man…this site, our site, is a place of refuge for many from all that this world is – which isn’t always so pleasant and good…
there are more than a few folks whom like to keep it light here to help balance out some of the other parts of their world…
I can completely understand that view, and, probably need to do a little better job respecting this space, their space also…
I do feel a little selfish at times…
in a lot of ways though, you all play an important part of my world…and for me there’s sooooo much more that I what to share and learn from you all than just your perspective on the knicks…the experience, stories and insight which appears here is pretty amazing…
sorry (not really sorry) for being so needy at times 🙂
Given what Knicks fans have been through the last 20 years, we have to look after each other ha ha
Strat, it was Phil who wasted KP’s rookie contract, not Mills and Perry. Get real.
Domestic violence doesn’t end with physical, or sexual abuse. Susan Forward’s Toxic Parents is a very good book on the subject. I highly recommend it.
Ah, yes. Only the mistakes of the last two years are fucking us. Before that we were on a real path to greatness there with MegaMaxMelo, Joakim PinchPost and that Courtney Love guy.
Oh, I see. It was Mills and Perry who soured KP on the Knicks. Not Phil. Oh no. KP loved Phil, there was no tension there at all. Who could forget the great love affair between Kristaps and Phil (cue montage of KP and Phil licking toads, listening to Grateful Dead bootlegs and prank calling Wavy Gravy)
See everybody, we were just *THISCLOSE* to triangulating the fuck out of some NBA basketball before that shithead Steve Mills fucked everything up. Oh the wonderful things Phil Jackson could have done if he was only given a fair chance.
Phil and Dolan an Mills got KP turned off on the Knicks. But it was Perry and Fiz’s job to bring him back and they couldn’t. That’s on them.
Of course we don’t know yet if maxing KP turns out a good thing. Failing to get him to want to be here is an organizational fuck up at a time when Phil was already gone.
I dunno, kissing the ass of a guy coming off an ACL tear preceded by a lengthy stretch of mediocre basketball so that he might stick around for a max deal but also might take the QO doesn’t sound like sound management to me. I’m happy with the return we got for him and glad we don’t have to look at videos and articles suggesting that he’s really just an obnoxious asshole, or squint at his stats to justify why he’s a worthy max player.
I don’t wish anything bad on KP, if he becomes a top-5 player, so be it. Right now I’m excited about this current team and its future possibilities. We’re so much healthier right now than we would have been if we kept KP and had to build a team around him.
On Porzingis, I don’t know if anyone here watches the Knicks Fan TV YouTube show but they interviewed Alan Hahn this week . In that interview he said that there were two other incidents involving KP that management kept hush (fast forward to 47:25 on the recording). The underlying message is that Porzingis was immature, got upset with Phil and never let go of that, and that current management did everything they could to bring him into the fold but it didn’t work.
BTW, I’ve subscribe to that show. It’s pretty good!
I don’t mean to be that guy, but youtube is blocked at my office and I’m curious what these incidents are. Can you elaborate?
There’s not much more than what GoNYGo described: Hanh alludes to a few other incidents that the organization made go away, that he insists will never come to light.
the sordid secrets are no doubt safely locked in the same vault containing the pictures of dolan applying alan hahn’s chapstick with his ass
What alsep73 said.
@34 – Hahn was anything but an ass-kisser on that show. He was as real as it gets.
@32 – Some highlights of the video: Hahn thinks the Frank should be in the starting 5 next to DSJr, he would like to see RJ earn a spot in the rotation and would rather see the Knicks easing him in. He thinks the 2 is the weakness of the Knicks. His starting 5 are DSJr, Frank, Randle, Morris and Robinson. He’s advocating that the Knicks be a (my words) a thug team. They should use their fouls. He thinks that Taj and Ellington are not in the rotation but will be important at specific times – Taj when they need toughness, Ellington when they need to drain 3’s. Trier is his 6th man. He said that the team is better from the perimeter but they still really need much more outside shooting. He’s not sure which coach on the team will be the defensive guru.
The one statement he made that I am 100% in agreement with is that the Knicks cannot rely on signing big ticket free agents. They need to draft and develop them.
The funniest thing about Strat’s shtick is, depending on what side of the bed he wakes up on, Phil is either the prescient genius who drafted surefire future superstar Kristaps Porzingis, or the prescient genius who knew Kristaps Porzingis was injury prone and overrated and thus tried to trade him.
Porzingis despised Phil Jackson. I don’t even list that when I list all of Phil’s fuck ups because 1) the list would get too long at that point and 2) Porzingis seems like a bad dude so I don’t particularly care about his judgment.
But if you’re someone who’s deeply upset about the Knicks ruining their relationship with Porzingis, Phil Jackson is patient fucking zero!
KP actually did us a favor, because he threw such a big hissy fit over Phil Jackson that Phil got his sorry mustachioed ass fired early. Thus sparing us another couple of offseasons worth of shitty Phil Jackson transactions. That was KP’s greatest contribution to the Knicks. He killed Phil Jackson.
I love it when PT goes lowbrow…
Bought the Phantom Tollbooth for my son btw! Might wait a year, he’s only 5 but very excited for the moment. One of my favorite books as a child.
Thanks for filling me in.
Here’s an exercise I’m surprised we haven’t engaged in: are we better with Julius Randle playing the 4 instead of Kristaps?
The area most KP apologists would point to is his defense. He’s an elite rim protector and his 3.3 blocks per 100 possessions dwarfs Randle’s 0.9. It’s difficult to quantify the total impact of having Porzingis back there instead of Randle.
But, to paraphrase DRed, I am always “weirdly hung up on” what KP gives back on D by not rebounding. Randle averages 11.4 DRB’s per 100 possessions to Kristaps 8.8. Factor in the offensive rebounding (Randle averages 3.6 to KP’s 2.7), and having Randle in the lineup instead of Porzingis could amount to 3.5 additional possessions per game (I highlight could because another teammate could compensate for Porzingis’ poor rebounding, so it’s not precise; but 3.5 extra possessions seems like a fair number to consider).
On offense, it’s really not close. Randle is good and efficient. KP is not. I expect Strat to tell us about KP’s undocumented contributions on the offensive end, but I don’t buy it.
I think we should begin to consider Randle as part of the Porzingis trade. We essentially traded Porzingis on a max contract for a better player at his position at 40% of the cost and picked up two firsts and Dennis Smith, and dumped all our bad contracts. I argue that, when viewed through this prism, this is the smartest Knicks move in the history of Knickerblogger.
Domestic violence really bothers me too, partly b/c my mother claimed that my father struck her occasionally, inc. once when she was pregnant. My grandmother (mom’s mother) claimed she saw it happen once, and her story seemed credible to me.
By the time I was 7 they were divorced, and I don’t have any memories of seeing him be abusive. I’ve had no contact with him, due to other reasons, since 1982 when I was 19, and I wasn’t told about the abuse until a few years after that, for some reason, so I never confronted him with that.
I also always think about the potential impact on children in the relationship. That has to be pretty awful to experience. So yeah, no tolerance for this crap if it can be substantiated.
i just don’t think there’s a way RJ doesn’t start at the 2…
DSJ, peyton, frank
RJ, trier, ellington, dotson
morris, knox, bullock (when he’s healthy), iggy
i just don’t see frank, dot, or iggy getting much run at all…
i liked watching randle when he played on the lakers…it was cool to see him always push the ball up court from the 4…from what i can remember, he can handle the ball…
i don’t know if he’s “better” than kp (kp’s rim protection is pretty decent), but, he’s damn sure been healthier the last few years…
Yeah, even if DSJ is out of the league in a few years, the KP trade was still huge.
KP’s massive flaws have been outlined here plenty, and Mitch more than covers his best attribute (shot-blocking). Getting out of the very stupid Hardaway contract and getting 2 firsts back from a below-average team in a totally loaded West is huge, though.
I love Luka’s game as much as anyone here, but that alone isn’t enough to make that team good. If we can draft well over the next 3 years (big if) this team could finally go places.
Randle’s game reminds me of Zach Randolph’s, but when I checked their career stats, Randle is (so far) a pretty superior player. TS% .563 vs. .522, about the same rebounding stats, both mediocre defenders.
Zach Randolph had a nice NBA career, but I’ve got much higher hopes for Julius Randle.
i always wonder for them poor folks whom get stuck with two shitty parents…that’s gotta be a tough hole to dig out of…
i haven’t really dug in to the subject of civil rights for a while, but, seems like kids are some of the last folks to get recognized in that light…
I was skeptical of the KP trade at first, but finding out we get two 1sts made me love it. That’s superstar value by itself, plus we get DSJr and dump Hardaway & Lee? For 1 year of KP is ridiculous value!!
Horrific in some cases. In my years teaching high school, I became aware of many such instances, esp. kids with parents with serious addiction issues. Your heart goes out for the kids, and you wonder how many can overcome such a harsh start to life.
RE Porzingis trade: the trade made me sad, but it makes sense and the return was good. If he gets his act together and becomes a legit star, it might hurt later on, though.
I was lucky to not have any domestic violence in my home growing up, but I’ve witnessed a few incidents. It always gives me a sick feeling in my stomach regardless of whether I know the couple or not.
Growing up I had a number of friends who grew up in those homes too. I had issues in high school and spent some time in compulsory group therapy sessions with them. It definitely affected them. Plenty of them turned out just fine, but there were a lot of emotional scars. Makes me sick.
Bought the Phantom Tollbooth for my son btw! Might wait a year, he’s only 5 but very excited for the moment. One of my favorite books as a child.
mine is almost 3 yet i have repeatedly attempted to read to him from it. i’ve never gotten past three sentences. the only
book he hates more is ron baker’s opus you’re too big to dream mahleenkiy
League average eFG% (since this is what BRef has) in Zach Randolph’s 5th season: .490
League average eFG% in Julius Randle’s 5th season: .524
Those stats say a lot more about the trends in the league than they do about the relative quality of the players in my opinion.
It can be done, but when you later find that success doesn’t make the anger go away, there’s a lot more work to do. Of course it always helps to have money – much easier when you aren’t contending with poverty, too.
Edit: books like The Phantom Tollbooth help a lot.
I agree with Hahn about the lineup. It would also put to rest our long-running debate on Frank’s value. I think that would be a mid-tier team on O and D, which for this group would be overachieving a little.
what exactly would frank be doing at the 2?
he doesn’t rebound, penetrate, facilitate, or score…
I expected DRed to know the title of Ron Baker’s children’s book but not you. Always surprising people….
Anything by Chris Van Dusen is a lot of fun for everyone, great illustrations and writing….
And as for the Knicks, continues to amaze me that Frank is the most interesting subplot going into the season. Who cares! At least I have a reason to watch beyond what has Taj got left in the tank.
I disagree with having Frank in the starting lineup but I think that it’s fair for the idea to be considered. That’s what pre-season’s for. This is not going to be a “tank” team. They’re going to battle for a playoff spot. What Hahn said about Frank at the 2 is that he should be paired with DSJr who’ll want the ball in his hands and that Frank would be a 3-and-D guy that stretches the floor and offsets Smith on defense.
BTW, one thing that hasn’t been discusses is the lack of rim defenders outside of Mitch. He’s the only REAL center on the team which is loaded with 4’s. That’s not to say that others can’t play that position, but when he fouls out (anyone want to predict and over/under on how many times that happens?) who do we have to protect the paint? I’m thinking that the name is Wooten. Maybe not day 1, but I would love to invite him to the block party!
If Frank is going to play then I think there’s logic to him starting because if he has a purpose (not clear) then that purpose is probably guarding the other team’s best perimeter facilitator, which means he needs to be in the game when they are.
Which guard pairs best with him in this alignment is a little tricky I think because if it were me I’d want to use Frank to guard different positions in different games, which messes with your matchups. If Frank is guarding the 1 on D but playing the wing on O then you need a guy who can do the reverse of that to play with him. There are some teams where DSJ guarding a wing is going to be a problem defensively. Payton might be a little better equipped to do it; RJ can also sometimes be the lead ball handler on O and can obviously guard the wing.
I’m not sure Fiz would ever do that much “customization” of his strategy from game to game though. Probably Frank will just play the 2 which a lot of nights is going to be a waste of the only thing that (possibly) makes him worth playing.
Wooten is definitely there. I also think it’s why Thabeet made the training camp roster and has a shot of making the team.
Alternatively, they just slot Portis & Randle in together and try to outscore teams. I’m skeptical that it will work tho
There is no guard that pairs well with Frank because there is no point guard on the roster who can score with anything approaching reasonable efficiency.
You want an Elfrid-Frank backcourt? Well, there’s two black holes for you on offense. Payton was right at his career .500 TS% last year, aided by his 2.1 FTA/36 and .475 eFG%. If you want to get your ass kicked a lot, starting that backcourt would be a good way.
DSJ-Frank is not any better unless DSJ makes a pretty major leap, although it would be kind of entertaining to watch an all sub-zero WS48 backcourt just to see what happens.
“None of our guards pair well with Frank because Frank sucks and also all the other guards suck” is a pretty facile argument. Obviously all Frank talk hinges on the idea that he shows real improvement this year. If he doesn’t then, yeah, he still sucks and probably the only thing he pairs well with is a plane ticket to Europe to join his new team. The question at hand is “If Frank is good enough to be in this rotation, what’s the best way to use him?”
The other guards sucking isn’t a Frank problem and exists regardless of who starts at the 2.
My thing with Frank and starting is that one of their best stretches last year is when they started Frank and Mitch and then they proceeded to never do it again. I doubt it will work out better now, either (as “one of their best stretches” is, in and of itself, a stretch, since they were still pretty bad), but why in the world did Fiz just completely abandon it? Oh wait, I forgot, it got in the way of his “Mudiay-fixer” narrative. Never mind.
I would like to give a DSJ-Frank backcourt a long look.
I love the NBA’s attempt to stop tampering. It’s like spitting into the wind.
As for good backcourt combos, our best backcourt player is probably Wayne Ellington, so we won’t have any good combos. We have to hope some of the young guys take significant steps forward.
I like that their best backcourt player was waived just last year.
Various combination of Frank, Robinson, Dotson, and Vonleh were good.
Those were some of the best lineups they had all year. It wasn’t entirely their fault the team still sucked. When they were out the bench sucked.
That period was all you had to see to know that Fizdale/management are either full of crap when they say they want to emphasize defense or too dumb to see it was working better. The only other option is that they saw it was working better and purposely abandoned it because they might win some more games. I’m not giving them that much credit.
Frank and Robinson should see a lot of time together. Vonleh is gone (because they are too dumb to see his value at that price) and Dotson will probably need a few months to regain his best form, but they should still try to focus on defense and team play.
The idea should be to get Frank and Robinson on the court with a few scorers that can at least defend adequately. Then you have an overall plus defense with stoppers inside and outside. Robinson won’t put up a lot of points, but what he’ll give you will be efficient. All you want from Frank this year is to wreak havoc on defense, make plays, & not be too much of a liability efficiency wise as a low usage scorer.
The issue is we don’t have quality scorers that can defend adequately unless DSJr steps up now that he’s healthy and finally in shape. Barrett will take time.
I think there’s zero chance Frank sees meaningful minutes at PG, because Payton can’t play anything other than PG and DSJ is too short and doesnt have the shooting to play the 2. My guess is that Ellington starts at the 2, with whoever’s Fizdale likes more out of Payton and DSJ, then either Barrett or Knox start at the 3 with Randle and Mitch up front. Barrett will also see minutes at SG, so my guess is that Frank, outside of injuries, will see about 10-15 minutes per game as the 3rd PG and SG, maybe when they go for a smaller lineup with Knox at the 4 and Barrett at the 3.
i would think that marcus will be our starting 3…after julius and mitch – our next best player maybe?
Maybe Fiz will roll over lineups hockey style, a new one every minute or so. That’d be fun.
Not only that, but he was 31 years old when he was waived last year. And the Knicks had him when he was 26 years old and making league minimum, and they still traded him for Travis Outlaw, whom they then had to pay the Sixers to take.
The Knicks’ script really does write itself most days.
“Here comes the third line backcourt!”
U guys r dumb
I’m in Nashua NH at a bar. This is the best Y’all can do?
Bartender doesn’t know how to pour single malt. In a good way.
Seriously, projecting lineups is useless, just too many unknowns.
The only certainties are Mitch, Randle, and Morris. Probably Payton.
Picking out the best Knick lineups of last year is like picking out which of Pauly Shore’s jokes are the funniest, or what is the best venereal disease, or what’s the best Kirk Cameron movie.
I prefer the clap, but hey, that’s me!
Just don’t switch to drinking bleach, please.
I think the opening day “business” lineup will shake down to Mitch, Randle, Morris, Payton and one of the young guys, depending on how they perform in preseason. Trier, Knox, Ellington, Gibson, DSjr and Portis will round out the rotation. Dotson, Frank, RJ and Iggy will have to scrap for minutes. I predict that RJ is gonna have a very hard time adjusting to the size and speed of the NBA game.
Pass on the pauly shore joke.
HPV seems mild.
There was a trading places movie that Dudley Moore carried.
And my base Knicks lineup would be:
With Frank and Knox directly competing for the 5th spot in the lineup. Barrett could slide between the 2 and 3 to accommodate either.
That’s not the best lineup (any lineup with Morris would be better), but that’s the optimal developmental lineup that I’d like to see.
the lineup with Mitch and randle doesn’t make sense on offense. Mitch needs space to float thru the lane and a pnr guard to play with. I just don’t see how you can play those two together for more than 20 mins
Mitch will hang on the weak side to get orebs and lobs. He won’t get in the way of Randle at all.
Randle and Mitch coexisting on offense is the least concerning thing about this roster. Great rim runners create their own space in the motion era. He’s going to feast on Kobe assists, especially if Randle commands weakside help. If Tangle doesn’t get swarmed in the post, another high-efficiency season is incoming. This isn’t rocket science.
I don’t have any special insight as to how the Knicks will delpoy Barrett, but I highly doubt they’re going to make him “earn his minutes” or whatever. That would be totally inconsistent with their approaches to their lottery picks of the past few years. Frank Ntilikina and Kevin Knox have basically been given all the minutes they can handle despite arguably being the two worst players in the NBA.
I understand the roster is a little deeper now, but RJ Barrett being benched in favor Wayne Ellington or whoever would be such a shit show storyline that I don’t think they’d want to go anywhere near it.
I have no idea if Barrett will start or not, but I bet he gets at least 1,500 minutes this season, and I’d probably take the over on that if given the chance.
It’s not the weak side Mitch I’m worried about. It’s the pnr. He was punishing defenses with that play, now most of those will feature randle.
Maybe it’s a non issue
If RJ stays healthy (and he seems durable) he’ll probably play 2,000 minutes. He’s not like Knox or Frank, he can actually already do some things at an NBA level.
There should be minutes for him at both the 2 and 3.
Frank has an nba skill. Defending the pnr. One of the best in the league at it.
My comment re: lineups was about the start of the season. If RJ isn’t ready, he won’t play much.
My hope is that Barrett can be a Paul Pierce type of player. Pierce was never the quickest or most athletic player on the court, but he was incredibly savvy and knew how to get his shot off against almost any defender (and a really solid career TS% of ,568)
I’d obviously be beyond thrilled if Barrett can have that type of a career; 3 point shooting will probably be the make or break factor.
It does til you get cervical cancer and can’t have any kids……
Mitch had a usage of what, 15%? Nah
Barrett really doesn’t shoot very well from range or hit his free throws. So I don’t see the Pierce comparison. I can’t remember the comps but how about a Demar Derozan who can pass and rebound but not hit his free throws.
That wasn’t a very good comp…
Pierce was in the top 5 in free throw attempts every year of his prime, too. (He’d have been first a few times, but he played in the same league as the Hack-A-Shaq defense). So R.J. would have to a) take 10 free throws a game, and b) make most of them.
@94 I mean, if you know for sure that Barrett can’t improve his shooting or free throw % then I guess we’re pretty much fucked
And btw Pierce had 4 and 6 FT attempts per game his first 2 seasons and made 70% of them his rookie year. So he didn’t exactly set the league on fire his first few seasons.
The best case of a Demar Derozan who can pass and rebound but not shoot as well is Dwayne Wade. But a more realistic case of that player is Lafayette Lever, who was a pretty good ball player in his day, but is largely forgotten about because he was understated.
A much much less explosive Dwayne Wade?
Paul Pierce shot both free throws and three pointers like shit as a college freshman so there’s that.
Randle can dribble, pass, and he looks like he may be able to shoot. I don’t see how he and Mitch are an issue together. They can probably run a Randle/Mitch PnR.
The worry on offense is the other 6-8 guys in the rotation. Who’s our best non-big on offense? Ellington or Trier?
i don’t like pp or derozan as comparisons bc those guys best qualities really revolves around an excellent combination of size, body control and fine motor coordination and that ain’t RJ. RJ’s defining quality might be his court vision for his size and athleticism, which wasn’t really what those guys were about when they were young. fat lever is even worse, his was in some ways the opposite of rj, especially on defense as a smallish guard with great instincts and hands.
i think the good rj scenario looks like one of the good sized pointy forwards who are not natural mid range killers (or athletic freaks like pippen drexler wade). like a combination of jalen rose and lamar odom. i’m worried he’s more like evan turner or iguodala without any of the the…err…defense but fuck that because it’s late september and for knick fans that’s the season of hope.
The “shoot” part is still a legitimate question in my mind.
He looked better last year, but we don’t know how much of that was random and how much was sustainable improvement. It was also at least partly because when he was beyond the arc he was not a priority for the defense. They’d rather give him that than let him get inside. If he continues making open shots from outside, he’ll stop being open. Then even if he has improved, it will be another test of his skills. Can he make them when they are closing out or off the dribble? To me, he’s still an inside player like Robinson. If he’s shooting from outside, the defense won the possession.
I agree on the savvy part, Pierce was actually a pretty dynamic athlete in college, but not enough to make much difference. Thing is, Pierce was more of a traditional “power” small forward with a pure shot and a million ways to score. My problem with RJ is that he presents as a ball-dominant facilitator but his ball skills are not great and he has serious issues going right. His shot is also mechanically unsound. Even in college, Pierce’s overall mechanics were rock solid.
RJ is very young, built like a brick shithouse, and seems like a hard worker, so I suspect that he will improve in all areas. He’s probably going to be a better passer and similar rebounder and defender compared to Pierce, but The Truth was a pretty special scorer and clutch performer. I’d need to see a lot more from RJ to entertain such lofty comparisons.
I’m getting primed for training camp by watching highlight videos. Mitch is just so good, and I think his offense is a very underrated part of his potential. He has excellent body control, hand-eye coordination and touch. He seems to be way ahead of where, say, Dwight Howard was at this age.
Iggy is super-intriguing. He was a dominant player in a premier conference as a freshman and has skills galore. It will be interesting to see if it translates to the bigger, stronger, faster NBA game.
it’s late september and for knick fans that’s the season of hope.
that just might be the saddest thing I’ll see all day…
Jets, Giants and Knicks-who has the worst defense?
@107. Surprisingly, not the Knicks
the good news is Daniel Jones seems perfectly fine.
The bad news is gettelman still deserves to be fired. This is the worst defense I’ve ever seen on a giants team.
I think it’s easy to believe Randle’s shooting is real bc he’s improved every year he’s been in the league. It’s not like he’s been the same every year and last year he had a better year. He’s progressed nicely from season to season going back to his second year. Don’t count his first Cause he played so little due to the injury.
Also, if defenses start playing up on him when he’s shooting from deep, he can still punish them by rumbling past them and scoring inside. So even if he is guarded more closely from deep, it’s not a lot of good options for the defense with this guy (plus he’s a decent passer).
I guess you could say I’m high on Randle!
Randle played very similarly last year as he did the year before, the only difference is that he had a higher usage and 3PAr. I wouldn’t expect all that much improvement, but that’s ok. He’s pretty damn good as it is. I think a great comparison for him is Blake Griffin, their overall stats at the same age are very similar, and Blake has since added a decent enough 3 to his repertoire.
Of course they were great after this, mike Evans notwithstanding.
To all our resident geniuses on football…. anyone not want to draft D. Jones #6???? Yeah…. I know…. He DEFINITELY would have been available @17 cause Mel Kiper sez so. Think the Redskins would want to swap Jones for a guy who can’t beat out Case Keenum???
As to the rest of the draft Ximines and Lawrence both had sacks, Baker had 7 tackles and 4 beautiful solo’s and wasn’t smacked around in coverage today. Of course he struggled the first few games he only played 20 downs in exhibitions because of a knee injury. Slayton caught 3 for 82 yards too finally healthy after 2 hammy strains. Connelly had 7 tackles and has moved into the starting line up. Can’t judge a draft after 2 games.
The defense was better after they decided to press across with man across and zone behind. They are starting 3 rookies and 3 second year guys…. it gonna be a work in progress.
Think Janoris Jenkins will finally keep his mouth shut in the papers tomorrow 🙂
But Ray Charles can see they have their franchise guy for the next 12 or so years barring catastrophic injury. Jones is the complete package. Has perfect size, can move, can make all the throws, got the crap pounded out of him (5 sacks/11 hits) and kept his poise and matriculated them down the field perfectly without perspiring. Gettleman is a genius because he saw the guy he loved and didn’t get too cute by a half and took him when he had a chance.
Jones’ early experience as a pro suggests he will be much better than his statistical production in college indicated he would be. Happy to say you were right that we should have waited.
Not sure why you keep beating this Mel Kiper drum. It’s quite the straw man.
I still think if Gettelman loved Jones he should have taken the stud from Kentucky at 6 and figured out a way to have traded ahead of the redskins. The point is to build a good team, not overpay for a good QB. There’s holes all over the field that could have been filled with the assets he squandered.
You earned the right to brag about Jones and Gettelman has earned enough to let us see what he does next year to fix the defense. But let’s not go overboard. This team is still pretty far from good. But it’s a great day for hope.
Josh Allen, btw, the player I advocated for at #6, had 2 sacks, 2 tackles for a loss, 2 QB hits, and forced a fumble this week. I’m glad Jones looks like he’s going to be good for a long time, but the player most of us wanted is pretty special. And we probably could have had both.
I came for the Daniel Jones comments.
It’s only one game but some people need to re-think some of their previous negativity towards Jones perhaps
daniel jones – we never doubted you…
The g men turned a new page today. Jones was better than I can remember Eli playing in what feels like forever.
Even if we lost that game it was a success.
If you have a chance to get a player that can become a high level franchise QB that can run or pass you take him when you can without screwing around. You can’t know who else has his on their board or who else might trade up above you if you try to get cute and take him later. Losing out on a franchise QB is kind of like losing an athletic 7’3″ basketball player that can take over a game on the defensive end by locking down the paint with help defense or by burying 3s at a 40% clip on the other end. Guys that can do ONE of those things are hard to come by. If they can do both they are a unicorn. In either case, you live with the growing pains.
In your glorious praise for Allen (who may be a fine player) you neglected to mention the Titans OL was in such disarray they gave up 9 sacks
Look, on the topic of Jones, and specifically whether or not people like me should have waited before we panned the pick, you win, by knockout, in the first round.
I don’t know why I’m the only one eating crow, and sure AF don’t know why other people are chiming in to gloat on your behalf. But I couldn’t have been more wrong, and I couldn’t be happier about it. I’m not even going to play the “let’s not overreact to one game” card, because it’s already pretty obvious.
But on the overall topic of Gettelman, it’s still not so clear. He’s left a ton of extra picks on the table, picks we really needed. A lot will depend on Julius Peppers turning into something that doesn’t seem likely, and Gettelman hitting a grand slam in free agency next year to overhaul the defense.
It sure is nice to have the hope that Jones and Barkley bring, though.
Delighted that I was wrong about Daniel Jones. Thankfully, football is a lot less predictable than basketball. Hooray interaction effects!!
Jeez, one good game against a crappy team and we’ve already concluded Daniel Jones was a great pick.
If RJ Barrett puts up 20 and 10 in his first NBA game, I’m assuming we’ll go equally overboard and anoint him the franchise savior.
Now if only I could be wrong about Ntilikina…
Daniel Jones looked great yesterday, and that’s awesome for the Giants and their fans. Still, you always have to wait for NFL defenses to get tape on a guy before you can say he’s legit. When defensive coordinators start disguising looks and delaying blitzes on him, the Giants will know what they have in Daniel Jones.
Fun fact (kind of):
35% of all the players that have ever played 2500+ minutes and have a negative ws/48 have played for the Knicks in recent years.
And to that, Frank Ntilikina and Mardy Collins appears next to each other on the list. They have pretty much identical career stat lines across the board to this point. We barely wrote about Mardy Collins at all while he was here. Maybe it was because he wasn’t a teenagers, so we didn’t have the guise of youth to cling to. Or maybe it was because Collins was drafted at the bottom of the first round, where Ntilikina should have been. But for those of us old enough to remember the Mardy Collins era here at knickerblogger, it was also a time of flailing desperately for false hope and relevance, yet we put none on the tallish, positionless, poor shooting, enigmatic superscrub that ended up getting traded for a guy with a broken heart that the Knicks still took despite his failing his physical and never stepping on a basketball court again.
Not everything requires a large sample size. The answer to “how good of a QB is Daniel Jones” will require more evidence.
But the answer to “is the kid a legit starting QB in the NFL worthy of being drafted high” doesn’t require two seasons worth of data. It’s usually evident pretty quickly.
Same with being a terrible coach/manager. You can thin slice that shit. You could tell Phil Jackson was probably going to bomb as soon as he handed out the Melo mega max with an NTC, for instance. Likewise, it was pretty easy to suss David Fizdale out without three seasons of W/L records.
And you don’t think the Tampa DC was doing that yesterday???? They sacked him 5 times and knocked him down 11 times, no? They stopped the Giants running game cold and put him directly in the crosshairs and he put up 32 points on the road under duress. They knew a rookie was playing and they had all week to scheme to confuse him but they didn’t confuse him now did they….
Watch more football. I’m guessing this is disgruntled JETS …. jets, jets, jets fan who hasn’t seen Sam Darnold look that good a single day any day in his life 🙂 🙂
Lots of Jest fans with buyers remorse today…….
I’m quite sure he is going to wet himself quite a few times but lets make lists of young Qb’s that have showed better so far……who are you going to believe….. me or your lying eyes……
This Mariota kid is the real deal and that’s a fact
@133 – I don’t think that Jets fans give a rats ass about Daniel Jones. He matters if both the Jets and Giants make the superbowl one day. Not now. As a rabid Jets fan (I’m obviously insane), his performance just means the Jets might get a better pick if they have a worse record than the Giants.
So now onto my Jets. I didn’t even bother watching yesterday. I predicted a train wreck. It was less awful than expected because the DEF & ST scored touchdowns on turn-overs. There was ZERO chance of beating the Patriots without so many key players. Even fully stacked it would’ve been a steep hill to climb.
If at all possible, the Jets have drafted worse than the Knicks. Do you realize that the Jets have not used a 1st round pick to select an OL since Nick Mangold and D’brickashaw Ferguson were selected in 2006.
Chuma Edoga (2019-3rd)
Brandon Shell (2016-5th)
Jarvis Harrison (2015-6th)
Dakota Dozier (2014-5th)
Brian Winters (2013-3rd)
Oday Aboushi (2013-5th)
William Campbell (2013-6th)
Robert Griffin. (2012-6th)
Vlad Ducasse (2010-2nd)
Matt Slausen (2009-6th)
Nate Garner (2008-7th)
Jacob Bender (2007-6th)
Maybe that’s the problem!
You actually sifted through 4 years of box scores to find an loltastic comp???? My compliments…..
This guy too
Anybody check out the Frank interview w/ French Knicks Pod?
The Steve Mills Project… THE STEVE MILLS PROJECT…
Nothing like a throwaway line from a French podcast to get your blood boiling on a Monday afternoon.
Sam Darnold had the 2nd highest QBR in the NFL in December last year, so I’ve definitely seen him play well (and even better than yesterday’s Daniel Jones). I’m not even trying to rain on any Giants’ fans parades, what I’m saying is one game is way too small a sample size for a QB for anybody to judge one way or another. Be happy and be encouraged, but don’t start sizing the kid for his gold jacket just yet. You probably don’t watch enough football if you’re definitively saying Daniel Jones is the franchise guy.
They don’t, per se. But there was (and still is) a woefully misguided narrative that the Giants would regret passing on Sam Darnold for Saquon Barkley. This narrative was a point of pride for some Jets fans (not all, and I imagine DRed, for instance, doesn’t give a damn about such nonsense).
I may have been dreadfully wrong about Daniel Jones, but I was on the right side of the Saquon Barkley/Sam Darnold argument (which flies in the face of your Mel Kiper narrative, Bob). I like Darnold and think he’s a very good QB prospect. But I think he’s the kind of QB prospect that is available at the top of most drafts, not some special can’t-miss QB that needed to be drafted at all costs. I would never have passed on Barkley for him, positional value be damned. And it didn’t take long for the Giants to find a comparable QB prospect, so I think Gettelman comes out aces on that one.
On a separate note, it will be fascinating if tonight’s NFL game plays out as expected and the Bears thump the Redskins in DC. There will likely be loud calls in Washington for an 0-3 team to do what the Giants did and bench Keesum, and that could set up a Jones v Haskins showdown on Sunday.
Passing on Darnold for Barkley sure as hell isn’t as bad as passing on Mahomes AND DeShaun Watson for Jamal Adams (who I love to death), I’ll say that much.
Passing on Darnold is not “as bad” as anything because it was a very smart move.
The only mistake Gettelman made was not extracting multiple draft picks from you guys to move up one slot to draft him.
^ Those are the things Gettelman still deserves some grief on. I think it’s misguided to give someone credit for “not getting cute”.
If you want Barkley, make it look like you want Darnold, get some extra picks from the Jets.
If you want Daniel Jones, don’t tell the whole world about it leading up to the draft, and when Josh Allen falls to 6 you can pick up 1-2 more picks from a team right behind you that wants to move up.
If you don’t want to sign Landon Collins, franchise and trade him instead of letting him walk for nothing.
If you want to move Odell Beckham, don’t zero in on Cleveland because you think Jabril Peppers is the one thing you need in the deal above all else.
Those 4 mistakes equal about 7-8 decent players on rookie contracts you could have added on both sides of the ball. There’s no way to make up for that in free agency or with Daniel Jones. That’s value that you lost forever.
There’s an article on deadspin with DSJ horribly butchering some FTs so seems he might be more similar to fultz than I thought
Hell no. I googled something like good rookie quarterback debut and the mariotta game was in the first result
“Those are the things Gettelman still deserves some grief on. I think it’s misguided to give someone credit for “not getting cute”.
If you want Barkley, make it look like you want Darnold, get some extra picks from the Jets.
If you want Daniel Jones, don’t tell the whole world about it leading up to the draft, and when Josh Allen falls to 6 you can pick up 1-2 more picks from a team right behind you that wants to move up.
If you don’t want to sign Landon Collins, franchise and trade him instead of letting him walk for nothing.
If you want to move Odell Beckham, don’t zero in on Cleveland because you think Jabril Peppers is the one thing you need in the deal above all else.
Those 4 mistakes equal about 7-8 decent players on rookie contracts you could have added on both sides of the ball. There’s no way to make up for that in free agency or with Daniel Jones. That’s value that you lost forever.“
I am looking forward to the takes when Jones goes for three INT and a fumble next week, because he’s a rookie and this is the NFL, where, for one, Cam Newton wins an MVP and turns into Jeff Garcia the following season.
Looked like it was an exciting game and all, but anointing St. Daniel seems a bit premature. Almost like watching 60 minutes of FIBA play and claiming that the worst rotation Knick in memory has turned the corner toward his Bruce Bowen moment.
If I’m not mistaken (I haven’t followed things closely), but Jones played pretty in preseason. It’s not overwhelming evidence, but it’s stronger than a similar claim for an NBA player. Whereas Jones has to rely on receivers and linemen, an NBA player has little excuse for not playing well–teammates have little effect.
Jones’s play seems more readily explained by better receiving corps than fluky play.
Jones looked good. I remember one bad decision in the first half that should have been picked off, but otherwise he was very impressive. Id be excited if I was a giants fan.
@144, a few things:
1) The Jets were never going to do a trade with the Giants after they just gave up 3 2nds to move into the #3 spot. They were sitting at 3 no matter what and were content to take any of Rosen, Darnold, or Mayfield according to everybody who reported on that situation.
2) It is still too early to say taking Barkley over Darnold (or even one of Bradley Chubb and Denzel Ward) was the right move. If Barkley gives you 4-5 years of elite production while you have zero chance of winning a super bowl and then tails off while any of those three guys go on to play a decade plus at an elite level, it was a bad pick in terms of both positional value AND understanding where you are on the win curve.
Barkley just had a high ankle sprain and might be out for as many as 8 weeks. Imagine if that happened in Week 1 instead of Week 3 and, instead of God’s perpetual punishment of the Jets, Sam Darnold never gets mono (which he played with in Week 1) and continues on the upward trajectory from last season. The Barkley vs. Darnold narrative would look very different and STILL it would be too early to make a call one way or another. It’s very likely that both transactions work out well for both teams, and it doesn’t have to be either or because the teams play each other once every four years. I do tend to lean on positional value at the QB spot because you can grab Alvin Kamara and Dalvin Cook later in the top 100 more times than you’ll grab Russell Wilson and Dak Prescott. Barkley over Darnold was a mistake because taking Darnold over Barkley means you don’t have to draft D. Jones and you can use your premium picks to fill out the rest of your roster. Drafting a running back 2nd overall shows a misunderstanding of the win curve.
Mac was a lousy GM, but not sure he would have gone for that. I recall reading at the time that the Jets liked 3 of the QB that year, so they traded up (and overpaid, frankly) from 6 to 3 to guarantee that they got one of those three (probably Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen, since those guys were reputed to be the most “pro ready”). Mac might not have been duped again.
Edit: ah, post 151 got in ahead!
What THCJ said. Still my favorite insight from the WOW. Football players and QBs are so variable from year to year, except for Peyton Manning. Makes perfect sense given the ever changing cast of teammates and opponents. .
Still excited about Jones though.
Not excited about DSJ’s foul shooting.
the way us giant’s fans are going on about daniel jones you’d think we were as desperate as them poor knick fans are for any positive news at all…kind of like frank doing okay in the fiba tournament…
second or third team all nba maybe for frank this year…
don’t forget, when it comes to being a knicks, mets, giants, jets fan ya gotta aim low – cuz them franchises are all riding shetland ponies in terms of performance…
i’m just not that into the NHL or MLS…i have no idea how those NY teams are doing…
Giants fans: “Don’t rush to judgment on Jones”
Also Giants fans: “Now that he’s played one game we know for sure we have a supersstar QB for the next ten years”
I forgot how much I hate Mondays in America during football season.
Sam Darnold had the 2nd highest QBR in the NFL in December last year, so I’ve definitely seen him play well (and even better than yesterday’s Daniel Jones).
I’m fairly certain I already said he’s likely to wet the bed or than a few time. He has relatively poor wide outs, and zero running game to work with for the next 8 weeks so none of that would be surprising.
However anyone who has ever watched a pro football game and has the least bit of objectivity has to feel awfully good about the 6th pick in the draft.
I don’t follow football at all and have no dog in this fight but your argument can’t possibly be that citing one month’s worth of good performance is cherry-picking and therefore unreliable, but that a single game’s worth of good performance on the other hand is a valuable signal. The level of cognitive dissonance is…something.
So let me get this straight. NBA training camps open next week and we’re discussing at length 2 NFL fledgling QBs whose teams are 1-2 and 0-3 respectively. Really??
What we really should be discussing is how the Giants would be 0-3 and the Jets would be 1-2 if it weren’t for the ineptitude of 2 kickers…
Now back to my Randle-Griffin comparison in @111, any KNICKerbloggers have any thoughts on the matter?
Anointing him a great QB is obviously premature and not many people are doing that without admitting that they’re getting carried away.
But it doesn’t take long to separate a guy from the likes of Blake Bortles, Johnny Manziel, Ryan Tannenhill, Jake Locker, Mark Sanchez, JaMarcus Russell, and all the other bums we were afraid he might be. That in and of itself is worth getting excited over. If he has a few terrible games, it isn’t going to change that.
At the time you guys made the Colts trade, it seemed like you were happy with Baker Mayfield, who was projected to be there at 3. After Cleveland fell in love with him, the picture changed.
I think everyone knew there was a big dropoff between Darnold and Rosen. If your guy was unwilling to give up a couple of picks to ensure he got the consensus #1 QB in the draft, he’s worse than we think.
@163 – not a bad comp. I ran their comparison in basketball-reference.com and Blake has the advantage (I compared their year-5 numbers – Randle age 24, Blake age 25) in advanced stats. VORP 3.6 vs 1.9, OWS 6.6 vs 4.2, DWS 2.4 vs 1.9. Blake is the better defender.
Basketball Reference comparison of Randle and Griffin
Bob isn’t cherry picking, he’s projecting.
It’s unusual, to say the least, for a QB to look great in his very first game and never achieve a productive level again. Although, IIRC, Robert Griffin III peaked pretty early.
Young Blake was a guy who used his elite athleticism to generate a shit ton of high percentage baskets.
Randle has to work a lot harder to get his points.
dang, you’re right…first pre-season game is only a couple of weeks away…after the hugely disappointing world championship (i watched a total of about 5 minutes of frank playing) – i’m gonna temper my anticipation for the start of basketball…
who knows, with the yanks still in it (i’m starting to hate the ‘stros…gotta believe though, this is the dodgers’ year), and the g-men poised for an interesting qb developmental season – i should be able to wait patiently…
Eh. Mariota had, as previously discussed, an impressive debut, and he’s mediocre at best. Charlie Frye had a strong first game and turned out to be garbage. Browning Nagle went 21-37 for 366 yards, 2 TDs and no interceptions. Anyone can look like a world-beater for a single game, and the fact that it comes in a QB’s first one isn’t necessarily an indicator of anything.
That said, Jones looked even better than he did in the preseason. He was never going to maintain that absurdly high completion %, but he never looked rattled despite his two tackles playing like turnstiles, and what he was able to do with his legs (which Shurmur clearly kept under wraps in the summer) was a revelation compared to our beloved slowpoke Eli. It may be that Jones’ college numbers were so pedestrian because of how bad the talent was around him relative to their competition, and that he defies QB analytics models. I sure hope so. It would be nice to see something good happen to this team, even if it becomes a feather in the cap of our blowhard caveman of a general manager.
The point is that he’s putting a very similar numbers at about half of a max contract, both in terms of length and money.
sure there are some blake/randle similarities but there are also big differences. blake was a much, much, much more explosive player than randle at this age. he was a guy who could dunk 200 times in a year but whose efficiency was hurt because he took so many long 2s which he only converted at about the hi 30s. some of that was bc he played with jordan a lot (but it didn’t change much when jordan was out) and a lot was just bc blake had too much talent for his own good and so dribbled a lot and took a lot of 20 footers bc he could do that better than most 250lbers who could also posterize a sedan.
so it’s been kind of a natural transition for him now that he only dunks every other game to flip to a guy who takes 7 3s per 36 and gets 5.5 to 6.0. aging would have looked relatively worse for him except it happened while the nba learned that 3 is more than 2 so he shifted all those 20 footers to 24 feet while giving up only a few points of accuracy, and that’s free money.
randle obviously can do some things on the outside, despite being a massive spinning bull of a person, so they have that in common. but he’s not as slick as blake and you already see him putting up pretty high turnover numbers before he gets up to the 5-6 assist pointy forward type numbers. but size and strength don’t age as badly as explosion and randles’s not been as injury prone so maybe he won’t have to make such a dramatic switch. i’m suspicious of randle ever being able to pull off 31 year old blake, i.e. with that proportion of perimeter playmaking and shooting, but hopefully he won’t have to for a long time.
on defense they have a lot in common, but not in a good way. i thought blake looked better on d last year than he has in a while but that’s not saying much. randle actually has better timing, he just needs an alarm on that clock.
I’ll never believe it’s the Dodgers year.
It’s annoying that both Houston and LA had injury-plagued down years last year when the Sox were good, and now that we’re good both of them are elite again. Timing.
I always thought Blake would be a good value at a better salary but was never work max money and risky on a long term deal. That’s why I’m excited about Randle contract. It just seems like a great value contract or a guy that puts up the numbers he does. And I agree with the durability issues. Neither guy should be your best player, but at this price, Randle doesnt have to be your best player.
While I don’t think the two players are similar, I agree with the point that Randle’s contract is good value. He seems like a player who is exploiting a market inefficiency.
Earlier I compared him to Porzingis. I think he is a better overall player than KP and is signed at 40% the guaranteed money.
Young Blake Griffin was more like Barkley or Shawn Kemp, in my opinion. Randle’s game looks a lot more like Paul Millsap’s to me. He can finish above the rim, but there’s more an emphasis on body control, pacing and touch around the glass. Lots of 8-foot floaters and finger rolls around the rim. Randle seems pretty good at drawing contact on layups through hesitation moves, whereas young Blake would just go up and challenge anyone.
Stylistically they’re different but the core numbers are very similar…percentages, per 36 numbers, etc.
I think that strictly statistically speaking (per 36), it would be hard to find two players that are more similar during their age 24 seasons. They have almost identical FG, FGA, ORebs, DRebs, Assists, Blocks, TOVs; Advanced stats-wise, they have very similar to near identical TS%, FTr, OReb%, DReb%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, BLK%, USG%, TOV%.
I don’t get the difference in WS48 and BPM stats is it due to Blake’s TS% of .583 being better SD-wise compared to league average (.541) in 2013-14 than Randle’s .600 vs. league average (.560) in 2018-19. Or maybe it’s an accumulation of marginal differences in several stats (assists, steals, turnovers). But I don’t get how anyone looking at these numbers could conclude that they are not similar in terms of statistical impact.
I like the Zach Randolph comp better, but I hope Randle has a better career.
the biggest difference is the extra .6 TOV which, bc TOV are especially costly (can’t be rebounded and convert into higher opp ppp) turns randle’s TOV adjusted TS into only 4 points above league average vs blake at 43 points above league average (alternatively you could say randle was 22 pts above and blake was 69 pts, depends on how you define it, but either way the gap is very big). the second big difference is the steals which the bpm regression weights pretty heavily.
In terms of raw numbers, Randle is better than Z-bo at the same age but I get that the styles are more similar:
Basketball Reference comparison of Randle and Randolph
But Randolph signed a 6 year $85,000,000 contract when he was 24 years old, which was a max contract at the time and goes to Z-Man’s point about the relative value of a guy like Randle.
Personally, I hated Randolph and his game and wouldn’t want to relive those knick years at any price, but if you can get a more likable, easier to root for, and equally valuable player at half the cost, then, yeah, that can be a pretty useful player, if not terribly exciting.
(Randolph ranks in the top 20 of highest paid basketball players ever. His agent is definitely worth the max, whoever he is.)
Randle definitely has some similarities to Zach Randolph, but he also has similarities to Charles Barkley. Julius is far from primarily a below-the-rim player, as Zach was. Randle can beat you both horizontally and vertically. He’s far more explosive than folks above are making it sound.
If you don’t believe me, watch this highlight reel carefully.
If that’s not enough, consider dunk rates:
Randolph dunked 134 times in his entire 35,000 minute career (less than 1% of his shots), and half of those were before age 25.
Randle has 177 dunks in his last 4400 minutes (career 8.4% of his shots). He dunks more often than LeBron James (career 8.1% of his shots).
Z-Bo was never known for his jumping ability. I think his vertical leap was 10″
tell me this doesn’t look like Randle + some years
Paul Millsap is a really, really good player. If Randle can become Millsap, that would be fantastic. (But Millsap was a good defender, and, from what I’ve read here, Randle is not.)
I always liked Millsap, a highly intelligent and overachieving player. There are definite similarities but Millsap is a better defender whereas Randle is“ far more dynamic offensively. Randle’s TS% hit .600 the last 2 seasons on higher usage, while Millsap never cracked .580. For a guy his size (and I doubt that he’s really 6’8″) Millsap’s steals and blocks numbers are awesome.
Millsap was a reallllly good player.
That’s a great stat. I feel like Melo’s numbers would be interesting.
I like Randle but he seems like the classic guy who will have a very short prime and a quick decline.
Blake has a better handle
Owen, Melo’s numbers are indeed interesting. He dunked a shitload in his first 5 years in Denver (peak: 165, age 21), then had a precipitous drop-off. His high with the Knicks was 34.
I don’t agree that Randle will have a short prime, he seems like a fitness freak and is built like a tank. Blake’s ball handing is much improved in recent years, but I doubt that it separates him much from Randle per se. Blake has worked really hard on polishing the little things in his game and is a much better all-around player than he was at age 24, but still posts a mediocre TS% and has lots of trouble staying healthy. He’s never been a max-worthy player, yet he will be paid the max for the next 3 years as he continues a pretty significant physical decline. Not sure whether Randle will develop much as a passer, perimeter shooter or defender, but even as he is right now, he’s a great get at this price. I think we will really enjoy his game.
Dunking is a young man’s game. As these guys age and get used to the rigors of a full season, they realize that cutting down on the dunks preserves their energy.
Of course you are, my friend…. we would expect nothing less from the world’s champion of i told you so.
However…. since you are married to ‘inside baseball’ sort of stats, here is a piece from today’s Post that statistically is pretty amazing and confirms the dreaded eye test:
Facts are damn nasty things…….
I think that depends on the dunking and the dunker. Guys like DeAndre Jordan are fine with high dunk rates. Guys like DSjr and Donovan Mitchell are not. Randle seems pretty selective, his dunking seems to be at a sustainable rate, mostly in transition, straight-line drives and weak-side alley-oops. None of the Andrea Bargnani variety. I expect that he will hang around that 8% rate for a while.
I was reading this article, and a name rang a bell. Any Jethro Tull fans here?
I just think the physical profile that Randle has can burn out quickly, especially given all the punishment you take playing down low. But I don’t know, just a subjective assessment. It won’t be a problem for this contract I agree.
Seems like the key to longevity is being able to play at least passable D as your offensive game declines. That’s why Melo is so toxic, his declining O just can’t make up for his even worse D these days. So in that sense, yeah, Randle has very little wiggle room on D to offset any decline on O. But PFs tend to hang around for a long time unless the knees or back go.
Roll men, like Jordan and Chandler, don’t tend to drop off. It’s less taxing on a big man with a clear path to the basket than on a wing player who usually needs to challenge a big to dunk.
To your point, though, I think comparing Randle’s dunk rate at age 24 to LeBron’s career mark is misleading, as LeBron spends 82 games mostly in energy conservation mode. I don’t know where you get dunk rate stats. Can you isolate LeBron up to an earlier age? Or can we compare Randle to players at his position?
randle’s career will be highly dependent on his shooting, unless he has some kind miracle defensive transformation. if he shoots 31pct from 3 this year he will suddenly look like a guy whose useful career will have a short clock. there’s not much room these days for a big who can’t space or defend even if they’re adrian fucking dantley. but even then the contract wouldn’t be a disaster bc there’s only 1 more guaranteed year. it’s a testament to how much the game has changed, givencrhat randle’s per 36 offensive numbers last year were oddly identical to karl malone’s age 31 season.
but if he continues to shoot okay and makes modest defensive improvements he could be a very useful player. it’s weird being a hyper talented bigger nba player these days who doesn’t specialize in shooting or defense. the extent to which fairly small differences in your weakest areas vary can determine whether you’re an all star candidate or being benched for meyers leonard.
Generally speaking, I feel like Z-Man is having the same kind of epiphany I had when I did a deeper dive into Randle’s stats last week: “holy shit, this guy is better than I realized.” I think we’re all going to be very pleased with this signing.
As I said recently, considering they will be playing the same position, we should view this as replacing KP with Randle at a fraction of the cost while picking up three quality assets and dumping 2 toxic ones. It’s a tremendous feather in Perry’s hat.
EDIT: and even if, as PT Milo suggested above, his shooting turns out to be a mirage and we’re stuck with the next Greg Monroe, at least it was a manageable contract. Worth the risk.
A dude with a .600 TS% on high usage is a useful player. That guy will help you win games unless he’s completely fucking inept at other parts of the game, which Randle does not appear to be. He’s not a great defender, but he’s still a net positive player because he has a knack for getting easy buckets. The Knicks were 30th in eFG% last year largely because they had no means of getting reliable easy buckets. They had a pitiful .490 eFG%. Randle and his .555 eFG% on high usage should help a lot.
Randle is a guy that a lot of us liked as a sneaky good player over the past couple of years. I think he’s a rare example of a “market value” free agent who might actually give you some surplus value.
longevity in the nba is really just tied to how good you are… and how good you are depends on how many things you do well….
randle currently can do a lot of things well… he’s just not a great defender…. and for a big that’s ok… but it just means you need other pieces around you to mitigate that.. anybody can have a short prime…. webber was one of the most talented pf’s and his lasted like 3 or so years… but randle isn’t some flash in the pan… he’s not enes kanter…. and it’ll be apparent in the first game you see him….
Randle is a relatively high turnover player-that lowers his value on offense. He certainly could be a useful player already-it depends on how bad his defense is, and I don’t know that we have reliable ways of measuring that yet.
Randle is a very good offensive player around the basket that can rebound and make plays at a decent clip level for a big. He would have been the perfect running mate for KP, but he’s not on the same level as KP.
KP is an IMPACT defender inside.
Randle is a liability.
They are on different planets on that side of the ball.
KP can also spread the floor beyond the 3 point line at high efficiency making it easier for inside players to get to the basket and grab offensive rebounds.
KP has obvious injury issues, still has to get a lot stronger so he can rebound and finish inside better, and has a lot to learn on offense to improve his efficiency. But if KP stays healthy he’s going to become a star two way IMPACT player in two years or so. The injuries are the “BIG IF”.
Randle is marginal starter on a very good team despite being way further along in his physical and basketball development than KP. He’ll start for us, well, because we are the Knicks.
He’s a variation on Kanter, albeit one that’s trying to improve his shooting range. He’ll be less of a liability inside defensively if playing PF with an elite rim protector like KP or Robinson. If he stretches his game out, he should be a very good fit teamed with Robinson who can hide his weaknesses on defense. If not, I’m not sure how much value he’ll add, but the boxscore will look very pretty.
Put me down in the camp in that thinks there’s going to be a lot of disappointment once people start seeing Randle more regularly. He really is a very, very bad defender and a fairly one dimensional offensive player. Unless the shooting keeps coming along in a big way (really needs to increase the volume to convince me it’s real) he’s much more of an undersized C than a PF.; i.e. a serious tweener. Still just 24 and given the talent and still obvious areas for growth I liked the signing because there’s a chance he can become a long-term piece here but there seems to be a perception among some that he’s already really good, which is inaccurate.
I was going to say everyone except Strat but figured I could just wait a few minutes.
It’s hard for me to find statistical evidence that KP’s *overall* impact, factoring in both sides of the ball, is better than Randle’s. They seem to impact the game equally. Once has a massive reputation that earned him a huge payday based on potential, and the other got paid what he deserved.
If I’m building a team, I don’t want the better player, I want the better player with respect to how much cap space he’s taking up. And to me, that’s Randle by a mile.
Randle’s contract is team-friendly. That’s key. On a max contract, yeah he’s not good value but the Knicks have him for 2/42 plus a team option. There are lots of worse ways to spend $21M than on a guy like Randle.
He still has a little bit of room for development too, so if he can cut down on the turnovers, and/or continue to improve the perimeter shooting, the contract starts to look even better.
Strat’s obsession with KP is a little weird given his stated preference for high-IQ, team oriented players. KP is allergic to passing the ball and takes all sorts of dumb, selfish, low-percentage iso shots and generally sees himself as “the man” and acts like a diva. I don’t really see how that fits in with the platonic ideal of a player that Strat seems to value.
Maybe it’s just because the mustache guy drafted him and all draftees of mustache man must be considered great players, even if said mustache man ran KP out of town which was Steve Mills’ fault somehow.
Strat sees platonic Porzingis. It’s difficult to accept a player is what his stats say he is when you occasionally witness him being so much more.
Some players are consistently on one level and some average out to that same level with widely disparate performances. Randle is the former, KP is the latter. They end up on a similar level. Randle got paid correctly, though. KP got paid for his best games, even though they don’t occur frequently enough.
Yeah, hell with that TS% and rebounding, Randle is a very, very bad defender and very turnover-prone…kind of like James Harden and Nicola Jokic.
A $21M AAV deal… for a 24-year-old. I am not mad about that when Chris Paul will make $44M at age 36 and Porzingis will be making $156M despite not having played in a game in 18 months.
Kind of like James Harden, but playing a different position and not being one of the best offensive players in NBA history.
KP is quite an unknown. He hasn’t played enough and hasn’t played pro ball in a long time. How has he recovered from his 2nd knee injury? Is his health an issue?
Yeah, I wish we had his talent, but he’s gone. We move on.
Randle’s defense is quite suspect but his flaws are fixable. The other day I watched video of him going one-on-one against Carmelo Anthony and the first thing that I noticed is his failure to use his hands. I’ll let you all judge that. Then I found this article on P&T and it confirmed what I saw. He’s fast enough to stay in front of the person he’s defending and he’s very strong and doesn’t get moved. What the author noticed was the same thing. He doesn’t complete the defensive play. He doesn’t contest the shot enough. Using those hands to bother shooters could make a huge difference in his game – especially since his problem is due to mechanical flaws.
I’ll be curious to see how he plays when camp opens. One thing that bothers me a lot is that there’s no real defense coach on this team. I would love to get a real defensive savant to work with our guys daily.
Maybe I’m delusional, but I’m feeling not horrible about this team and it’s future. Now if we can just get rid of Dolan…
I find myself feeling generally upbeat, too.
There’s still a ton of work to do. But I think we have at least three young pieces in place (Randle, Barrett, Robinson) that I think can be part of a good team in the future.
We have some scratch off tickets in Knox, Trier, Smith, Payton, and Brazdekis that could pay off.
And PICKS! We have surplus of draft picks! I’m not saying it’s a good time, but it’s nowhere near the worst time to be a Knicks fan. There’s definitely an uptick.
One thing I’m not sure of: do we have a better outlook today than we would have if we had signed Kyrie and Durant?
I’m inclined to say yes, simply because dodging the Durant bullet is that significant. And we’re probably going to have a lottery pick this summer instead of whatever Kyrie could have carried us to. But we need to eventually capitalize on the future space to confirm.
What does this even mean? Despite the good 3pt shooting KP’s efficiency is still mediocre.
I know that you argue DAL/Carlisle will cut back on the bad mid range shots so KP’s TS% will improve. But I would still be nervous about KP’s lack of production around the rim for a 7’3 guy. He doesn’t leverage his size enough to get easy buckets and hasn’t shown any propensity to bang down low. Not sure if his lack of strength is the only reason either. Rookie Mitch was a beanpole just like KP and still managed to score a bunch around the hoop.
The only thing I will say about KP is having Luka Doncic get him the ball instead of the array of shit point guards the Knicks ran out there should get him more easy hoops and improve his overall efficiency.
But good riddance to him.
I don’t trust the gnostics of September
Fuck yes. There are three main ways the Nets can go with the Kyvin Durrving era:
1) Their current role players and young’ns develop like crazy, Kyrie stays healthy, Durant comes back the same explosive sharpshooter he’s been for like 13 seasons, and they are a top-2 powerhouse in the East starting in 2020, while the Sixers lament their pisspoor, short-sighted management over the last couple seasons; the Bucks fail to keep the role-player glut intact and see Giannis superheroing the team to 55 wins and a threepeat of Conference Semis losses; Miami cries itself to sleep as it realizes it’s traded for Chris Paul’s hilarious max and will be paying a 30-something Jimmy Buckets to spray Cristal all over the world’s hottest Latina women on the average weeknight; and people completely forget that the Boston Celtics even exist. Oh, and maybe Mitch wins DPOY and R.J. turns into prime Wade.
2) They realize it was a giant fucking mistake to sign an aged, injured guy (already on the decline!) to pair next to a malcontented weirdo and blow it all up for a haul of assets as oversized as KD’s risk-laden contract. This seems like career suicide for Sean Marks, even though Joseph Tsai might have this month made himself the smartest owner in American sports, so maybe the case could be made. But probably not.
3) Most likely to my mind? The Nets struggle in the mid-40 win range and they start mortgaging virtually all of their future assets to make a big splash during trade season. And that maybe gets them up into the 50-win club, but certainly far short of the 57+ you’d expect from a contender.
#3 is the one that would worry me most if I’m a Nets fan. And since I’m a Knicks “fan,” I can sleep at night knowing that we’re probably not trading the 2023, 2025 and 2027 1RP out of…
Randle is pretty elite offensively. In the last 3 seasons, only three other players who played more than 2000 minutes have a TS% of .600 or above, a usage of over 27% and 10+ per 36. Giannis, AD and Towns, all of whom signed max contracts. Two are perennial preseason MVP candidates, one is a top 10- 20 player. He’s not James Harden, I’ll give you that, but he’s a very nice complementary player for the price.
This take is legitimately wild to me. I don’t think signing Durant was any kind of slam dunk – THCJ is right that the injury/age combination is legitimately terrifying. It’s a massive roll of the dice on him coming back healthy. It’s also important to remember that if he does come back healthy he would have been by a not insignificant margin the best player to ever suit it up for the Knicks, and that a 100% Durant + Kyrie is a legitimately championship worthy 1-2 punch. Now even in this scenario you may not win the title – you still need to maximize the fringe talent and get your fair share of luck, but you’re in the mix.
And now here’s the real key – we did basically nothing of value with our cap space instead. If you want to argue that we might have theoretically been better off with an optimal use of the cap space than with signing Durant, okay, I’m willing to hear you out. But if you’re trying to convince me that I should be happy to have Bobby Portis+Marcus Morris+Wayne Ellington instead of Kevin Durant I’m not buying that for a second. Sure, you’ll tell me that in two years those guys will have expired whereas Durant would still be on the books, but I’d rather roll the dice now with legitimate championship upside than kick the can down the road two years with no real plan.