(Wednesday, June 05, 2019 12:46:47 AM)
We still have at least three games left in the NBA Finals and haven’t seen Kevin Durant play since May 8, but that doesn’t mean the Golden State Warriors superstar’s free agency this summer carries any less intrigue. The New York Knicks are widely thought to be a favorite to land Durant (and maybe another star on a max contract), but one of the NBA’s loudest analysts doesn’t think it would be a good fit. Some of the thinnest skin I’ve ever seen’ Charles Barkley was asked about the possibility of Durant joining the Knicks on Tuesday, and the NBA Hall of Famer didn’t have the kindest words for Durant’s ability to handle the environment that comes with Madison Square Garden.
(Tuesday, June 04, 2019 5:42:45 PM)
NBA rumors: Celtics’ Marcus Morris drawing interest from Lakers, Knicks, others originally appeared on nbcsportsboston.com Boston Celtics forward Marcus Morris is eligible to become an unrestricted free agent this summer, and several NBA teams likely are to pursue him if he tests the open market. The Athletic’s Shams Charania reported Tuesday an update on Morris’ future, and while a return to Boston is possible, it looks like the C’s will have plenty of competition for his services. Celtics free agent Marcus Morris will have strong interest as a second-tier free agent, with teams such as the Knicks, Kings, Lakers, Clippers and Bulls expected to be in pursuit, league sources said.
(Tuesday, June 04, 2019 1:37:38 PM)
Veteran forward Marcus Morris figures to receive plenty of interest on the free agent market this summer, according to Shams Charania of The Athletic, who reports that the Knicks, Lakers, Kings, Clippers, and Bulls are all expected to be “in pursuit” of Morris. All five of those teams project to have significant cap room this […]
(Wednesday, June 05, 2019 1:27:53 AM)
Larry Johnson makes frequent visits up to the display case on the 200-level of the renovated Garden to reminisce. The glass-enclosed shrine includes photos, a copy of the boxscore and the shoes and “2’’ jersey he wore the wild night of June 5, 1999. It is glorified among the “21 Defining Moments” in the history…
(Tuesday, June 04, 2019 5:03:18 PM)
The New York pro sports landscape isn’t for everyone, and Charles Barkley said he thinks that’s especially true for Kevin Durant. On a conference call for the upcoming American Century Championship golf tournament, the “Inside the NBA” analyst didn’t mince words when it came to his advice for Durant’s upcoming free agency wooing by the…
(Tuesday, June 04, 2019 1:55:26 PM)
ALBANY – Former New York Knicks basketball players J.R. Smith and Al Harrington made a surprise appearance in Albany on Tuesday to push for pot to be legalized before the plan goes up in smoke at the end of the legislative session. The New Jersey-born hoops stars were invited by Assembly Majority Leader Crystal Peoples-Stokes…
(Tuesday, June 04, 2019 10:49:29 AM)
The Pelicans have snapped back to reality. After expressing hope that they would be able to keep Anthony Davis, with No. 1 pick Zion Williamson on the way and new management in the building, executive vice president of basketball operations David Griffin has started listening to potential offers for the superstar, The Athletic reported Tuesday….
(Tuesday, June 04, 2019 8:45:41 AM)
Kevin Durant has been mum on the issue, so NBA fans are left reading the tea leaves from Nike. The company is selling a T-shirt on its website that lists all the cities Durant has played in during his career, dating back to high school. The last two cities on the list are Oakland and…
(Tuesday, June 04, 2019 8:00:48 PM)
Warriors star Kevin Durant can be a free agent after the season, and the idea that he could team up with fellow free agent Kyrie Irving on the Knicks this summer has picked up steam since the Kristaps Porzingis trade cleared two max slots for New York. Here are the latest rumors…
(Tuesday, June 04, 2019 7:54:02 PM)
Celtics star Kyrie Irving can be a free agent after the season, and the idea that he could team up with fellow free agent Kevin Durant on the Knicks this summer has picked up steam since the Kristaps Porzingis trade cleared two max slots for New York. Here are the latest rumors…
(Tuesday, June 04, 2019 5:33:36 PM)
Charles Barkley lays out all the reasons why the Nets are a better free agent destination than the Knicks.
(Tuesday, June 04, 2019 5:48:01 PM)
Kevin Durant is one of the top free agents on the market, and is expected to give the Knicks strong consideration if he decides to leave Golden State.
(Tuesday, June 04, 2019 1:18:39 PM)
Pelicans star Anthony Davis has requested a trade, informing the team he has no interest in re-signing. With news of Davis wanting out came reports that the Knicks have strong interest in trading for him. Here are the latest rumors…
(Tuesday, June 04, 2019 11:49:47 AM)
A one-and-done season is what many expected from Kawhi Leonard with the Raptors this season. But should it change after the latest tidbit of news that surfaced about the small forward?
93 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2019.06.05)”
I agree that Ntilikina helped the offense more than his offensive stats indicate. By the eye test, you can see it flow better and you can actually note him directing traffic sometimes. I like him and want him to get more minutes at point guard, but I still think the plus minus stats are a biased a little positive for him. They compare him to the other Knick guards; and, since the other guards were so bad, that’s an easy comparison.
The plus minus stats do mean that Frank should have had more minutes at point guard and less at two guard. But that is water under the dam.
I actually like Barrett’s fit between any of Kyrie, KD, and AD, all of whom would take the bulk of the 3pt shooting. Or if we get shut out, a guy like Pat Beverly would be a nice fit with Barrett. A Barrett/DSJ backcourt scares me though.
According to BRef, Frank spent 71% of his minutes at point guard as a rookie and 66% of his minutes at point guard this past season. How is this intangible beast best utilized on offense, as a point guard who can’t dribble, a shooting guard who can’t shoot, or a forward who can’t rebound? Someday you’ll have to accept that this is an insolvable puzzle.
I have to say, I was impressed with how the Frankophiles made a seamless transition from “Frank isn’t being asked to do enough, they just throw him in the corner” to “Frank is being asked to do entirely too much, that’s not his proper role” between seasons.
If this dude was on any other team, there is no one here who would trade so much as a second rounder for him.
Oh, cool, the Knicks are interested in 29 year old Marcus Morris, he of the 0.3 VORP and -1.4 BPM. I hope they give him the 4 year max to provide veteran presence!
First, props on the “Frankophiles.” Nice. But sorry, count me in the still positive on Frank camp. I recognize how putrid he is on offense. I recognize that he looks like a deer in headlights. I recognize that advanced stats don’t show much value.
Yet it can’t be meaningless that his on/off is positive, especially on a team where it’s hard to find other players for whom that is true. Despite his injuries, he did play decent minutes, and most of it wasn’t scrub time. When he was on the court, you could see ways he contributed that aren’t well-measured by stats. It isn’t his man defense that is great (though it is good), it’s his spatial awareness. One reason he doesn’t get steals is because he cuts off passing lanes – you could see it, and the numbers reflect an improved overall defense with him. On offense, he is scared to shoot, but on the other hand he keeps the ball moving, and the offense is better with him DESPITE his putrid numbers.
So, what’s true? If you go purely by stats, he should be out of the league. But if you are willing to imagine that maybe advanced stats aren’t all that advanced yet and in fact it’s possible Frank is doing SOMETHING positive that is in line with his effect on the team when he’s on the floor, then perhaps you shouldn’t be so certain he is terrible and had no value. Aside from his age and all the other stuff, his current production may not be defined entirely by the stats we currently have available.
Well at 61% he played more point than I thought, but still less than last year. It would be nice to have stats separated by when he played point and when he didn’t, but that’s probably too much to ask.
I’m going to need some clarification as to what people are talking about, because his raw +/- has never been even close to positive. It was -101 as a rookie and -185 during the past year.
To be clear, I don’t find that significant at all. He’s been on horrible teams and any +/- stat is going to be noisy as hell. It’s his god awful individual stats and “little brother playing with the big kids” demeanor that informs my opinion.
But yeah, for the sake of the discussion it would be good to know what exactly is being cited here.
There are Frank Truthers now. It’s not that he’s bad but he might improve, it’s that he’s actually good but the numbers can’t capture it. Like he’s a vampire who doesn’t show up in a photograph or something.
Raw plus minus numbers are noisy. The stats that try to adjust for the noise in raw plus/minus numbers like RPM clock Frank as one of the shittiest players in the league.
I mean, Frank’s numbers are so pitiful that it would take a truly gargantuan effect from other non-boxscore numbers to offset that and get him anywhere close to a net positive. Or even anywhere close to a passable rotation player. Either “keeping the ball moving because you suck on offense” and “getting skinny through screens” are the hidden secret sauce to basketball or maybe– just maybe– the raw plus/minus numbers are noisy.
Also, am I missing something here? The data at 82games.com seems to say that the Knicks, the worst team in the league, were worse when Frank was on the floor.
Jeez, can’t we just agree that Frank is very, very bad on offense, is “pretty good” at defense, and is only 20, so he might get better but probably not a hell of a lot better??
A future Bruce Bowen is maybe a nice comp, but who cares… I guess they should keep him for now (since he’s so young) but only until it’s financially impossible to (meaning he demands a larger 2nd contract for some reason, or we need the cap space to sign a real star).
Frank’s ideal position should be defending the point of attack while never being the primary ball handler or running pick and roll. It’s a very hard position to find room for on an NBA team. You need multiple wing players who can be a dominant ball handlers. The perfect situation for him is the Mario Chalmers/Norris Cole role, and those kind of jobs don’t come open very often.
Nah, man. We’re just Knicks fans who care more about the team being good than picking on stupid arguments on the internet.
Everyone knows he’s bad, you don’t need to keep throwing the stats at us. There was an 86% chance that we wouldn’t get Zion. Everyone knew the math was stacked against us. But that didn’t stop us from hoping and caring. You didn’t go around ridiculing every Knicks fan hopeful that we’d win Zion saying “hey you fucking idiot, don’t you understand how math works? You’re not winning the lottery so move on you Zion-truther.”
There is probably a 94% chance that Frank either doesn’t get a second contract in the NBA or at best gets a Vonlehesque min flier. We get that. And the 6% chance is only due to him being 20. But that’s the same 6% chance New Orleans had to win Zion. So you know, I’m going to continue to hope that Frank comes good because I care more about the Knicks than being right on the Internet.
Huh? We’re not responding to people saying “Frank clearly sucks, but I hope as a Knicks fan that he bcomes good eventually.” You won’t find a single person who disagrees with that sentiment. We’re responding to people saying Frank is either secretly good already, or has a good chance of becoming good. Both of those things are very obviously false.
I’m really not rooting for the kid to fail. I was adamantly against drafting him, but if you feel like digging through my posts you’ll see that I was constantly hopeful he would turn into something and perhaps even more optimistic about him than objective reality should’ve permitted. Eventually it became clear to me that the guy sucks presently, and in such an extreme way that it’s highly unlikely he ever stops sucking.
For the upteenth time, I hope I’m wrong!
If Marcus Morris turns out to be KD’s Robin, I’m going to be sick.
Trust the process!
As for Frank ad nauseum, I’d like to see him get a third year, and NOT as a PG. I’m by no means optimistic, esp. because he seems unable to shoot or stay healthy, but I’ve long felt that if you draft real young players, you should be patient and give them at least 3 full years to develop. Having said that, if you can trade a youngster for something decent, not just a dump, then do so.
I hope that Knox, Frank, and DSJ are taking millions of three point shots this offseason.
In the 82games table that was linked to, there is a “production” column and an “on/off” column. The on/off looks fine. That’s what I expected, but the production looks bad. What is that referring to?
Boxscore models have a tendency to overvalue and undervalue certain players because not everything of value (positive or negative) is in the boxscore. “On average” it all kind of evens out. But some players may have more of the attributes that are missing than others and vice versa.
IMO, boxscore models do not handle “usage” properly.
They more or less assign a break even point where if your efficiency is above a certain level you start accruing value and if it’s below a certain level you start losing value. Again, on average, that’s fine. But some players with limited skills/or and very limited role on offense can be more efficient than players with a wide range of skills and a huge role. At times, the lower efficiency player can be much more critical to the team’s offense than the efficient role player, but models prefer the role players.
Finally, those models can’t make adjustments for the skills a player may have that are not being used to their fully or correctly extent because of coaching, system, because there are better options on the team, or because the team was so bad the player was being asked to do things he’s not suited to.
In the end, on a net basis, considering these issues, IMO, Frank is better than these models are capturing because he’s good at things that are not being captured. I think the on/off data does a better job, but critics are correct to point out that he’s kind of being compared to other bad PGs. So he’s not a plus player even though the team has been better with him on the court for 2 straight years.
My argument is simple. He’s negative value player, but not nearly as negative as it looks. And since he has one skill that could rise to an elite level before it’s all over, you don’t throw that away at age 20. He could still become a VERY valuable role player. I think you give him time to see what else he can develop on offense. If he doesn’t develop, so be it. He’ll play in Europe.
Here we go again, people pointing out simple facts are “rooting against the Knicks”, the never ending cycle starts again.
Nobody is rooting against the damn kid, we all want him to be amazing. He even seems like a super nice dude. Stop trying to make this a moral stance. I hope every single player on this Knicks roster becomes a star and we win the title next year, we’re just discussing the reasons why it won’t happen.
Production is self explanatory–Frank sucked ass when he was on the floor. The on/off data indicates the Knicks were 0.9 points per 100 possessions worse when Frank was on the court.
See above. According to 82games, the Knicks, who were the worst team in the league and in particular trotted out myriad garbage guards, were worse with Frank on the court.
As it so happens, rumor has it there might be a silky smooth ball-handling 7-footer on the market this summer looking for his own team…
I have a really hard time understanding how a player who’s among the league’s worst shooters, who can’t rebound on either side of the floor, who’s a mediocre passer (on a team that can’t shoot), who cannot dunk despite his “elite length,” and who dribbles into the paint with as much confidence as I do could possibly be a net negative in the NBA.
We’re trying to argue that a player who isn’t even close to earning a spot in the rotation on the league’s worst team is somehow, maybe, just maybe, not a terrible, awful player who shows little-to-no basketball skills worthy of NBA playing time? Is this actually happening right now?
If this argument about Frank is making you question reality, definitely don’t turn on the news.
On a sidenote, THCJ, I seem to recall in a thread where you mention you live in Portland, OR? Am I imagining this? If you do, I’ll be up there over July 4th weekend for a guys trip/bachelor party. Most of us have been there before, but if there’s anything you can think of that we NEED to do I’d love to hear it.
Where are you going to be in Portland?
“Production” is not self-explanatory to me. If it refers to Frank’s actual scoring, we all know it was bad. In the table, only Baker and Garrett (who I don’t remember) are worse. But in on/off, he’s better than Garrett, Knox, Thomas, Hezonja, Hardaway and Mudiay, and close to neutral to the team’s overall performance. This supports those who say he’s better for the team than his individual statistics suggest.
I believe Frank will eventually find a role in the NBA and be OK. I know people hate the eye test here but after we picked Frank and he started to become such a lightning rod of discussion, whenever he was on the court I would focus on just watching him on the defensive end. And I truly believe he is an elite defender who improves the over all team defense significantly.
What I would notice is that he doesn’t necessarily get up in people’s faces and lock them down. He doesn’t get steals. But his insane length and his positioning allows him to really frustrate the opposing team. He can guard a guy with the ball but then switch to the bigger player and also guard that guy and he can do that with basically every player 1 through 4. He can use his length to disrupt passing lanes. Shot clock violations, stepping out of bounds, double dribbles…all of these things start to happen more frequently for the opposing team’s offense when Frank is on the floor because guys just can’t really get by him. Bad shots at the end of the shot clock happen more often too. He does really know what he’s doing on that end of the floor and its a shame he isn’t just average on offense cause he would be a good player if that were the case. I’m cool to move on from him but I hope he finds a place in the league because he is a very interesting player to watch and his defense is good.
I really really want to like Frank because he is good at things not many other guys are good at. I think they should make him go see someone like Wendy Rhodes on Billions. It looks like he has no confidence out there, always looking at the bench for approval, shying away from the ball… it is a mental issue with him more than anything else.
How is production not self-explanatory? The game of basketball has the same one single rule for all its existence, which is that if you score more than your opponent you will win. There’s things that help you score more, like actually scoring efficiently, rebounding misses to get more possessions, stealing the ball to take away possessions and creating good looks for your opponents by passing them the ball or blocking your opponents shots to stop baskets. Frank Ntilikina does not do any of those things at a good level, and he’s probably amongst the literal worst players in the league in at least two of those aspects of the game. He’s a good defender, which is the other remaining aspect of basketball, and that’s just about it.
Come on. I love the kid, I wanted us to pick him, I’ve defended the pick for an entire season, I got extremely excited when he showed up on defense or made good plays. But we’re reaching Trumpian levels of crazy shit if we’re really arguing anything other than “Frank is currently a terrible basketball player”.
I’m even fine with strato’s infinite loyalty to the notion that he will certainly improve given time, because that’s at least possible. But arguing against the basic fact that he is indeed terrible right now is way too much.
As bad as Frank is, I just don’t know who else they would’ve picked that we’d be happy with except for Mitchell – and if I remember correctly, this board was pretty lukewarm on him save for Z-man.
The other main option was DSJ, but few wanted him here and he doesn’t look much better. I remember liking Collins somewhat.
It’s easy to rag on Phil, but taking the consensus top Euro draftee at 8 seemed like a good way to go at the time. *shrugs*
We haven’t booked a place yet. I’ve only stayed downtown the times I’ve been, so considering that still to hopefully be able to walk to some places and not have to rideshare everywhere. My friend just moved to the Buckman area so possibly near there? I’m a little less familiar with the side of town east of the river but open to anything.
Not really. Because raw plus-minus numbers are very noisy. If you happen to be on the court a lot with the team’s better players, your raw plus-minus will probably benefit. If you happen to be on the court with the team’s worse players, your raw plus-minus will probably suffer.
Come on. This is not hard. This is basic common sense. Stop trotting our raw plus-minus numbers as if they are super meaningful. They’re not.
Bruno, what you described as “production” could also be the description of plus/minus. But the numbers in the table for the two are very different, so I am wondering why.
Frank’s production sucked. He was an awful NBA basketball player. The Knicks were only slightly worse with him on the floor, though, because the alternatives also sucked and random noise.
It’s not hard to reconcile!
Eastside is more “Portland” to me. The Pearl is basically a Californian diaspora with lots of overpriced brunch, woo-woo yoga and hyper-progressive yuppie daycares. Downtown has lots of stuff (and is the only place in Portland with a real bar/club nightlife) but is pretty trashy come summer — the homelessness problem here is out of control by the time the skies clear.
For coffee, get a straight espresso at Barista. For treats, do an old-fashioned donut (either classic or lemon poppy) from Blue Star. For family-style meals, go to Andina (Pearl), Toro Bravo (Irvington), or Pok Pok (Richmond). If you go to Pok Pok, arrive early and get drinks while on the waitlist at the Whiskey Soda Lounge, their sister restaurant a block away. Cascade is a legendary sour beer brewer in Buckman. I prefer cider so I would go to Schilling or Portland Cider House, which each have taphouses with an inexhaustible list of ciders to sample. Some Italian places that are amazing but not really in the spirit of Portland: A Cena, Nostrana, Ava Gene’s. Xico on Division is a place I took my now-wife to early on, delicious and hip Mexican place with a great mezcal cocktail selection. If downtown, brunch at Tasty and Alder, but arrive early. Screen Door is a brunch shitshow of new transplants and vacationers alike; bring a camp chair and a book.
Down around my neighborhood, there’s a place called NWIPA. It’s a bit out of the way, but is one of the more vibey Portland places that won’t make you feel like you’re in a stark modernist craft-beer art installation.
Frank is a terrible scorer.
His rebounding is not so bad. He got 3.5 per 36 last year, and 3.7 the year before.
His passing is also not so bad, 4.8 / 36 last year and 5.3 the year before. Not great, but not out of this world bad either.
His steals per 48 is 1.6, good for somewhere in the low 20’s in the league among players who got more than 10-12 mpg (this is an estimate).
The rebounding, assists and steals would be OK averages for a 2 guard. Of course a 2 guard should be able to score, and Frank, um, cannot.
The anti-Frankophiles are more or less saying the same thing:
he sucks cuz statz
There’s more to basketball than stats can capture.
for a second i thought this was going to be a link to my other site
Yeah, sure, there are some things that boxscore stats don’t capture. And if you assign God-like abilities to Frank Ntilikina in those things, you can almost maybe make a case that those things make him merely a terrible player rather than one of the worst players in the NBA.
Here are some other things that a boxscore doesn’t capture: what happens to your offense when you play a guy with a .400 eFG% and the other players have to play four-on-five? Is that a thing that doesn’t show up in a boxscore or nah?
So let’s recap: the worst team in the NBA, the 17-win New York Knicks, performed worse when Frank Ntilikina was on the court than when he was off, despite the fact that the guys who were playing when Frank Ntilikina was not playing were named Emmanuel Mudiay, Dennis Smith Jr, Kadeem Allen and whatever other bums played guard for the 2018-2019 Knicks. And somehow this is evidence that Frank Ntilikina has some hidden value.
A player with Frank’s abilities and track record has never been analyzed as much as goes on here…
buckle up for at least one more month of it…heck, even if he gets traded – i have a feeling monsieur frank will not be soon forgotten…
hell, the two travis’ are still alive and well here…
what we really should be talking about – will lance still be in the nba come this fall…my guess (if he’s not part of some trade package) is he gets released by us and picked up by someone like memphis and then gets released again around christmas…
I always root for Frank. Got a soft spot for him for some reason. Dude is fucking terrible.
SI just dropped their top 100 draft rankings. Culver 3, Barrett 4. Two out of three ringer draft guys have Culver over Barrett. The consensus is changing?
That’s the thing, if Frank was literally THE BEST defender in the NBA, plus the best motivational speaker, entrepreneur coach and Austrian economist, that would barely be enough to argue that it compensates for his faults everywhere else. How is that so damn hard to grasp.
If he wasn’t on the Knicks you guys wouldn’t even know his damn name.
I mean, will Barrett even provide as much value as Cam Johnson at the next level? A guy that could go in the late 20s? I know his ceiling is low, but the dude is an amazing shooter and not a stiff on D.
knick young guy rankings:
2). whoever we draft (if we keep them)
does frank even belong in front of any of these guys?
Ii you are just looking at last season’s stars, i would move Dotson up to number three and move Knox down below Frank. Kadeem didn’t have enough volume to make me trust his results, so I might move him below Frank too.
I think Kadeem might have more value in terms of winning than Knox – Knox is clearly more valuable as a trade chip thanks to the pointzzz narrative, but Kadeem does some things that contribute to winning at a reasonable level. He can hit the three, he’s a willing passer and he seems like a net positive on defense (though he’s not anything special on that end). He’s already more or less what we wish Frank was, and Kadeem is going to be cheap af to keep. He also seems like the kind of role player that would thrive playing off Durant.
Never knew Culver played with Mitch before…I like the sound of that.
Mmm, that’s fair. Knox could end up being terrible as well. I’d swap Dot and DSJ and move Trier above Kornet. Kadeem is definitely better than Frank.
Good to know. But being from San Diego perhaps I’ll fit right in!
Loved Blue Star, Toro Bravo and from my last visit. Pok Pok is also great. Will add Barista & WSL to the list.
I’m a big sour fan. SD, as I’m sure you know, is well-known for our craft beer scene too. Unfortunately they’re hops mad down here and I’m not an IPA fan. I chuckled at stark modernist beer craft-beer art installation. That vibe has been captured repeatedly down here as well. Enjoyed Tasty & Alder my last trip. Thanks for the recs, THCJ.
the homelessness problem here is out of control by the time the skies clear.
Good to know. But being from San Diego perhaps I’ll fit right in!
Touche domiknick, I live in San Diego too and yes we have a very robust craft beer industry and a very robust homeless problem as well. Let me know if Portland’s homeless problem tops ours, inquiring minds want to know.
I wouldn’t go to Whiskey Soda Lounge unless I were waiting for a table at Pok Pok. The cocktails are overpriced and the service is meh at best. It’s just a nice perk if you (unlike me) are unwilling to show up at one of the city’s busiest restaurants before 5:30 PM on a holiday weekend. Salt and Straw will also be a shitshow during 4th of July weekend, especially if the weather is nice, which it will be.
Lady Jowles and I like to enjoy our local eateries, but we exploit happy hour menus like a couple of cheapskate pensioners. We do Tasty and Daughters (little sister of Alder on the eastside), La Moule and Firehouse happy hours like they’re going out of style. $1 PNW oysters, $14 Mariniere moule, and $8 authentic Neapolitan pizza, respectively.
That’s just how hopeful people operate. No one believes he’s secretly good. We’re just looking for 1-2 why maybe he might become good, some signs that he’s not the total zero he probably is.
If someone says one good thing about Frank here it’s like an explosion. Some of us just like the kid and want to believe. There is no reason-based argument to be made that the numbers are lying.
But Frank does often lead into the argument about defensive stats. The people who like him the most on defense definitely do so bc of the untrustworthy eye test.
homelessness is a tragic situation…on a lighter note though – was doing some work at the san diego convention center, and, at one point i needed to drive an electric cart for a bit back and forth from the convention center to the omni…
one morning i was making my way along the promenade trying to avoid the folks sleeping there…sure, enough ran over a sprinkler head and flooded the whole area…it cleaned the area out for bit pretty quickly…
People were trying to make some very bad arguments, like Henry George. “You nerds just don’t like Frank becuz stats.” Not compelling. Other people were abusing raw plus minus stats. Why don’t you get mad at people making weaksauce arguments that are easily demolished instead of getting mad at the people dutifully doing the demolishing?
that’s a really good point – when ranking our young guys you kind of do need to differentiate between previous performance and potential, and, their perceived value as an asset…
just looking at what’s been shown so far and “realistic” expectations for performance improvement:
2). whoever we draft (if we keep them)
5). kornet – for what kornet can do – perfect cheap player in today’s nba…
6). trier – hard to evaluate cuz he played a good chunk of games hurt – and, really sucked doing it…
7). knox – i’d keep knox over frank, just because he’s more likely to not be hurt and actually make it out on the court…
asset value wise:
1). whoever we draft
4). mitch – i think that conversation someone had reference mitch with some sports writer is telling, i don’t think mitch has nearly as much perceived value outside this blog as we might think…
6). frank – should be assigned to rucker’s until he gets a handle and some heart on offense…
That’s a very good point. It’s why I stated my ranking order suggestions were only based on last season’s stats. Potential and trade value are both different ball games.
That’s actually a really good question. After considering it for a moment, I suppose there is something about the eagerness to demolish an argument that strikes me as bloodthirsty, and that innately triggers me more than an argument that is without merit. I also think those acts of ganging up limit the participants in a conversation, as more people who might add value stay on the sideline for fear of rebuke. Usually when someone says something ridiculous I try to respond with empathy before leading them to a better conclusion, if possible. This is probably a byproduct of my profession.
Thank you for asking, though. I genuinely gave that some self reflection.
If Frank had been picked 58th instead of 8th, no one would be talking about him. Now that he’s an NBA player and not a prospect, his draft position is irrelevant to everything but his salary.
He’s fucking terrible.
If you just want to believe in Frank, r/nyknicks is literally filled with people who have made the same choice, and really don’t care about constructing any form of argument whatsoever.
This has always been a stats based blog. Nobody is telling you can’t be optimistic about the guy, but you also can’t really expect people who have discussed basketball with an analytics focus to not answer or not try to deconstruct your argument.
If you simply come out and say “I know it’s against reason but I love Frank and I hope he’ll be great”, nobody will attack you. Some people even did exactly that in this very thread, and nobody went at them. But like JK47 said, people get tired of random arguments focused on weird noisy stats or random predictions while the most reliable stats we have PLUS the eye test only show a terrible player.
Sometimes I enter some text into the box here, and then I think to myself “hmm this might not stand up to scrutiny from some of the very smart regulars who post here, maybe I haven’t thought this through enough” then I delete what’s in the box. And that’s okay! In fact, it’s why I come here.
Half baked arguments are not going to thrive in this space. It’s why it’s such a great space.
I have Knox as a strong number 3. I’m optimistic about him improving next season. Unlike Frank, there were positives with Knox and he only needs minor improvements to make a leap. For instance, if he just passes the ball sometimes, it will open up a lot. And that’s not an unrealistic expectation.
excited for some basketball…c’mon raptors…i’m thinking though we’ll be getting more of the draymond and boogie show tonight…
what in the world were they coaching him to do on offense though…he definitively looked less freaked out towards the end of the season when he got the ball, but, i don’t know, doesn’t seem to have a quick first step or much athleticism around the rim…like you said – passing ain’t his thing…
it’s like first he’s thinking ‘what i’m doing here’, then, ‘how am i suppose to maneuver these giants pontoons around the floor’…
I hear you.
It’s unfortunate that a half baked argument often gets attached to a reasonable argument, and then everyone focuses on the half baked argument.
For instance, i started this stuff about Frank. But it was just a hopeful statement about a player I am under no delusions about. And then someone chimes in about how the stats don’t tell the story and throws churn in the water and next thing you know the sharks are out and somehow I’m defensive bc I started the thing and people are destroying the original hopefulness even though they’re not really replying to me and, well, whatever.
ever since hearing about mitchell robinson’s supposedly itsy bitsy size 13’s (?), and, how it helps him get off his feet fast and jump, and, move around quickly i’ve been somewhat fascinated with ball player shoe sizes (me and every nba arena groupie in the nation)…
is there anyplace to look up weird shit like that?
Maybe we could pick one of the lame headlines to argue about everyday instead of going over Frank for 70 comments…
Damn, Metallica is looking old.
This makes me feel old in turn.
You could try wikifeet but I think that’s only for celebs
you know, i told myself i wouldn’t judge anyone who responded with that kind of information…i’m not so sure now…
There is always a price for knowledge
Is it me or is this game being officiated terribly?
It is not you.
It has been really terrible. Weird calls, inconsistent refereeing all around. The warriors can be down 20 without 2 of their main guys and I still think they’ll come back and win.
Kyle Lowry came to play tonight. Remember the narrative that he was a choke artist in the playoffs?
How about Ron Baker’s college teammate?
This is almost a game 7 intensity. Danny Green FEELING IT!
Big shot by Cook.
This could be a 4th quarter for the ages…
Not with 3 barrels in ‘im…
Carrying this blog on my back as usual…
just got in to catch the 4th…serge and lowry getting it done…
This game is not over…
Turn out the li-i-i-i-iights, the party’s over…
We got us a series!
The two minutes or so that ended with Van Vleet’s kill shot was completely ridiculous
Toronto is easy to root for…no obvious a-holes and some real good NBA lifers.
I have a bunch of friends who are Spurs fans and they hate this finals a whole lot but it’s good for the rest of America
Kawhi could have handled things better in SA but he’s quiet and gutty as fuck playing through his injury. Pop is great but he’s an arrogant prick. Whatever.
More than anything, this playoffs is a tribute to Masai. What a amazing. job he has done with that franchise.
Love this quote from Siakam: “None of us were drafted super high. We built our careers from the ground up. That’s who we are.”
Fun quiz (no peeking!) We all know that Kawhi was drafted at #15. Other than him, who was drafted the highest on the Raptors?
Without peeking, I would guess Lowry? I know Gasol was a second rounder, Siakam was late in the first round, some undrafted guys, etc.