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131 replies on “Post Game: Celtics beat Knicks, 113-99”
Yeah I’m with you to some degree. There are some hyped guys who’ve not looked great in college. I think there will be more movement from prior rankings in this draft, whereas the last couple drafts have had very high correlations with high school recruiting rankings.
Obviously Zion is great, and I also love Ja Morant, though he may be one of those players who is more entertaining than actually going to lead you to a championship. I think Barrett is a fair risk as a potential stud with some good coaching, and I really liked Bol Bol, but of course have no idea about the health issues. After that it’s murkier from a top 5 perspective. I really like De’Andre Hunter, super long but quick perimeter defender who can score a bunch of different ways (but definitely not a lead initiator). Then there’s a bunch of guys like Culver, Jaxson Hayes, Johnson, Little, etc. None has separated enough yet to where I’d want to use a top five pick on them.
(Reposted from last thread)
This is a purely emotional response to the current situation – not having to watch people who are grossly overpaid, but instead seeing young players give it their best, even in a loss, feels good. For some reason, it feels better to be a fan of this team. For that alone, Scott Perry, thank you.
Agreed. Also that Mitch Rob block on Tatum was beautiful.
The trade was basically the best you could hope for once you decided to move on from Porzingis. In that scenario, you have to weight what picks and players you receive in return, and you also want to clear up your cap. Perry did that, returning two 1RPs, a lotto PG year removed from being drafted who has shown an uptick on the floor, and some vets you can maybe move for smaller assets or just buyout.
I also don’t really get what how else they’d handle KP at this point. I wouldn’t feel great about committing max money to a guy who doesn’t seem thrilled to be my franchise piece, regardless of whether those reasons are justified or not, and isn’t on board with the plan we’ve laid out for him. Considering the injury history, future risk, and diva tendencies (looking at you Janis), this was a relationship where things weren’t going to get fixed and required a parting of ways.
The Knicks now have the most flexible situation in the league, because unlike fucking Atlanta they are a big market team and although we have failed in previous starfucking endeavors, we actually are a consideration for max players. I think we’ll absolutely get a meeting with the top guys in this class, Durant and Kyrie for sure. Even if they don’t come I like the position we’ve put ourselves in, now it’s up to Perry and Mills not to fuck it up, even if the top guys turn them down.
Is it considered a win for us if we Max Kyrie Irving?
Kyrie and KD is a jackpot but what if it’s kyrie aloneor Kyrie plus one? Will be good? Kyrie and Kawhi could be. But what’s the other scenario aside from KD that we can say that it’s a good value for money
The Nuggets are up on Houston 83-71. . .at halftime
i mean how many wins could kyrie + kd net us? im not sure if we break 50 if the supporting cast is who we are throwing out there….
I couldn’t watch the game did Clyde or Green make any interesting comments about the trade?
Also, I suspect Perry already knew KP wanted to leave or that he probably wouldn’t sign anything acceptable to the Knicks. So he worked out the deal and had a last meeting with KP. When KP wouldn’t change his mind, Perry pulled the trigger on the deal
In a lovely twist it was nationally televised – no MSG broadcast.
Thanks Grocer. Maybe next game we will hear from them.
Hey, Bruno, if you’re out there, I was just reading in the NYTimes about Jean Wyllis and it made me think of you and I hope you are okay.
I guess everyone is in a rebuilding mode right now, with a lot of the major countries seemingly locked in a tankathon. Hopefully there’s a Zion at the end of the tunnel for someone. (I hate that the Knicks are a metaphor for the state of the world.)
Hey man, thanks a lot for the concern! It’s been hard so far in the sense that we don’t know how things are gonna continue, but it’s been mostly hitting high profile people, like Jean Wyllis. For the rest of us it’s been just watching a government who seemingly has no idea what to do. Still scary, but I’d say it’s been slightly less terrible than what we expected right away.
People can be incredibly shitty to each other for the strangest reasons. Sometimes I hope we should blow ourselves up and give evolution another crack at it…..
While I don’t disagree that much with some of his basketball takes, Ntilakilla’s tweet digest is Cedric Ceballos level cherry picking
So once we’re at full health, depending on trades and buyouts, who are the starters and what’s the rotation? The Kornet/Vonleh/Knox starting frontcourt seems set. Does Mudiay get his starting spot back, or does Smith’s arrival signal the merciful end of his relevance? Is Frank still the backup PG, or is he now a full time wing and secondary ballhandler? Does Trier take over TH2’s role in the starting offense, or will he stay sixth man? (He May have come off the bench last night because he was the backup PG on this depleted roster.) Obviously, the kids will and should play as much as possible, but I’m curious about the configurations.
LA is really underwhelming New Orleans, per Woj. Their top offer has been Ball, Kuzma, and picks.
Dotson and DSjr will play a lot with Frank and some Trier. Hopefully Muiday will be disappeared…..Robinson and Dotson were the only two that looked like pros on both ends last night. I don’t quite get keeping MR around 18 minutes a game when he isn’t in foul trouble. Kornet can really shoot the ball…. imagine if a real penetrating pg who liked to pass was on the roster.
At least we’re in good position if New Orleans wants to trade him to anyone other than LA out of spite.
Does anyone else think that KP may have just over played his hand trying to get a full max? I bet he is regretting his move right now. He needs to fire his brother.
My man, people were complaining that we didn’t consider every offer out there from every team in this KP trade situation. Yet I can’t find one credible league source who says we’d have gotten more than we did from this deal with Dallas from GM X, Y, Z, etc. What I’ve found is the opposite, in fact.
Meanwhile I will leave this.
Anyone heard this hot take?
@21 Very hard to say. He and his brother are pretty close to the vest about their ultimate motivation. Bottom line is that KP did everything possible to alienate management and to put them in a position where a quick trade was the only logical answer. I mean they are pretty smart guys, and it would be very stupid to trash management’s direction and make ultimatums and when you really wanted to stay, especially when you’ve been out for a year and had no timetable for return.
Further, I would not be surprised if KP has no respect for Fizdale, based in part on Marc Gasol influence.
Or, it could be that he didn’t want to wait until after FA signings were finalized to sign a max deal.
Or, it could be that the Knicks refused to affirm that he would be offered a max deal at season’s end no matter what.
At some point (and maybe right now) these selfish, calculating ways may backfire on KP. On the other hand, he may get that max deal in a better situation than the Knicks. There is all kinds of risks for KP, for the Knicks and for the Mavs build into this situation. I would say the Mavs have the most risk, and the Knicks have the least.
Normally I don’t enjoy the Deadspin articles about the Knicks, but this one gave me a few chuckles
At some point (and maybe right now) these selfish, calculating ways may backfire on KP.
the problem is definitely not that he’s selfish and calculating. what other ish should be be? being selfish and calculating in your business dealings as an nba player is a kissing cousin to being rational and deliberate. if there is a problem with kp and his team, it would be that they weren’t selfish and calcuting, but were instead impulsive and vain, hurting everyone’s interest including their own because of perceived slights that have little to do with kp’s future, such as trading WHG or Melo or rehabbing in place A not place B or who knows what.
the thing is we still have no idea what happened to sour KP on the knicks or how soured he actually was. we know he didn’t like phil, and honestly phil seems like he’s 70% prick on his good days so that doesn’t exactly shock me or have me reaching for the diva card. we also know a thing or two about steve mills and his boss. but on the other side we mostly know KP and his “team” tend to bumble around doing a bad imitation of a grown up management. but that’s basically all we know.
i’m actually really curious to hear different versions of what went down, but even then we’ll be drowning in biased, conflicting testimony. the only thing we can say for sure is that strat will conclude that every version of the story is infected by cognitive bias or hidden agenda except the one that sheds a favorable light on phil.
Tbf the Knicks are a terribly run organization.
Those are good points Z-man. I guess we’ll never know the full truth. I was initially very saddened by the trade, because I thought he could be the cornerstone of the franchise for the next 10-15 years. The more things that come out, the more I see Perry really had no choice. I think Perry got a nice return for him, all things considered.
So all it takes to not talk about Ntilikina is a KP trade.
That, and Frank being hurt. But it is a big question as to what his role will be now the Dennis Smith is here. I do think that they’d make an interesting backcourt together for a few minutes a game at least.
Can we put our minds to Kawhi and Durant. I really don’t want Kyrie here. Kawhi, Durant, Zion.
If we get Zion and those two, who would trade Zion for AD? I wouldn’t. At least we would still be good after Durant got old.
I can’t find the exact recent quote from Durant but it was something to the effect that he wants to decide how his next situation is built. What I inferred from the comment was that he wanted a LeBron in Cleveland type situation where the entire game plan revolves around his play making as the centerpiece. Meaning he wants to test if he (perhaps without other “superstars”) can get a team to the highest level. Made me think that he may in fact not want a super team because of all the criticism he took in GS for joining Steph. So he may not in fact be looking to join up with a Kawhi, AD, Kyrie situation. Pure conjecture on my part. But that’s what I got from the quote. Will try harder to find it.
I’m not sure why this is so complicated other than the single minded focus on tanking without consideration for ALL the consequences, but the damage has been accumulating for years. What players want is a sense of stability, competence, merit driven evaluations, personal development, and progress towards the team goal of WINNING. The Knicks have been bad for quite awhile but there’s a sense of the team taking a few steps backwards in the short term instead of making progress. That’s not good.
The way you handle a situation like KP is by not allowing it to get to this point in the first place.
Not all these are applicable to KP, but even for those that aren’t, just observing them related to teammates would make many players unhappy and want to leave.
1. Players like playing.
2. Players do not like losing.
3. Players that deserve minutes based on merit do not like being benched for development purposes
4. Players do not like when their roles are not defined & they are in and out of the lineup all the time
5. Players do not like when their best friends on the team get traded
6. Players on losing teams have a limit to how much losing they will tolerate before asking out
7. Players do not like to feel like an entry in a spreadsheet
8. Players do not like hearing their names in trade rumors. They want to feel valued.
9. Players do not like constant coaching changes
I just basically described the Knicks.
Not only are the Knicks a terribly run organization, they’re about to hand out some $300 million in contracts this summer. I can’t even begin to imagine the pressure & whispers coming at Mills and Perry from the agents running KD, Davis, Kyrie, Kawhi, Klay, Boogie, Kemba, and Harris. I can’t imagine the gifts, the perks, the consulting gigs relatives and friends may desire. I can’t imagine any of this.
The only thing I can imagine is that we do not have all the information, and illogical organizational decisions are not always a sign of incompetence. There may be other interests there.
With Hardaway/Lee gone and a scorer like DSJ at PG, I think Frank’s role is actually clearer and more secure now (assuming management and Fizdale understand his long term value).
Frank can share play making responsibilities and play off the ball while DSJ is on the court because the latter is more of a scorer anyway. He can also take on the tougher defensive assignment in the back court.
I’m not sold on DSJ being a solution at PG. I’m not even sure I like him. But he’s probably a better player and prospect than Mudiay.
So why aren’t Tatum and all the Celtics that are going to be traded for AD sulking and demanding trades right now?
Same w Ingram, Ball, Kuzma? Why aren’t they in the press saying this is bullshit we want out? Because maybe they are pros and KP was a prima Donna who even when clearly communicated to about the plan to tank this season, get another pick and get a good FA he was still sore over Phil? Absurd behavior. Good riddance. Hope he never makes another all star team.
There are rumblings in LA from Ball’s group and I can assure there are other players that aren’t happy about being in trade rumors either. But those guys are in WINNING situations and moving forward.
Not everyone comes out and tells people what’s on their mind immediately (other than Kanter lol). They hold it in, deal with it privately or through agents, and hope for the best. That doesn’t mean they are happy.
At a certain point though, there’s a last straw where you feel like you want out. Usually, it’s when the team sucks and is going backward instead of forward. Then you ask yourself, “Why should I deal with this bs? The team sucks. The management sucks. We are going nowhere for many years. Why should I stay in this dumpster fire?”
It looks like Perry might have managed to get “destabilizing the Celtics” as an added throw in to the trade.
If the complaint was that they didn’t shop him to other teams, then how could there be reports of competing offers? No one is going to say, “Here’s what we would have given the Knicks had they asked.” I’m not even saying that that complaint is legit, just noting that the absence of reports of competing offers is meaningless here.
It’s all kind of easy from here.
The hardest part of a rebuild is finding the 2-3 player superstar/star scoring combination to build around. We had one player that could be part of that trio. We just didn’t know yet where in the pecking order he would wind up and how healthy he would remain, but we had him. We were hoping to add 1 in free agency and 1 in the draft.
We blew that!
Now we have none, but we have two max slots instead.
We have to fill that cap space with star players. It’s as simple as that.
If we do, we’ll come out of this smelling like a rose even if KP goes on to become a perennial all star or better. If we don’t (or overpay someone like Kemba to save face), this will set our rebuild back a few years or could turn into a debacle depending on what we do with the space.
I probably would have drafted DSJ over Frank. I spent a good amount of time pre-draft arguing that he was essentially the same caliber of prospect as Fultz. But his pro career has been pretty disappointing, especially his turnovers. I also am not confident he’ll shoot as well as he did this season if he’s the primary ball handler for the Knicks. But he’s still very young, and he’s probably better than our other young disappointing point guards.
That’s the fascinating thing here. I don’t like their process at all, but if they land KD and Irving, then hell, it worked, so it’s all good. This could all seriously actually work out. It’s amazing. Plus, as I noted the other day, if they have an under the table deal already with KD, then awesome.
By the way, thinking about that Ringer podcast discussion about the trade…boy, Bill Simmons says some weird ass stuff. He is still defending the Melo trade. “He came in third in the MVP vote in 2012! That means that he was the third-best player in the NBA that season!” Oooph.
KP never seemed enthralled to be here aside from maybe his rookie season. He was on teams that tried a reckless win-now approach and he was on teams that were more development centric–didn’t matter.
We’re the New York Knicks so I’m sure he had his reasons, but if he was producing like, say, KAT the easy solution would’ve been to just tell him all the right things and leverage restricted free agency in our favor. It’s not difficult to keep your own draft picks for a while if you really want to. Since he produced more like Melo with plus defense, a trade made sense for both parties.
I don’t think KP did anything all that bad. Players should be able to leverage restricted free agency at least a little bit (though if his production continues to not match the hype the whole Keeping up With the Porzingises situation will wear on any team). I also think the FO did they best they could with a tricky situation and acting quickly may have actually worked in their favor.
Yeah, I view the trade as short term one very big step back, but with the potential to take multiple steps forward, depending upon how the assets (lots of cap space, two picks that could end up being good first rounders, and a talented but selfish young PG) are used.
In a vacuum, that’s good for a tanking team, esp. if it is planning to tank for another couple of years. OTOH, if they go big game hunting but settle for expensive roadkill, it will be awful, even if KP blows his knee out again next year or even just takes the QO and leaves Dallas empty-handed.
At the end of the day, who really knows if the Knicks did “due diligence” or not? All these conflicting media reports on both sides are suspect. I see no “smoking gun” either way.
Strat, it wasn’t like KP was quiet and humble and handling things properly and then just said screw it this franchise sucks. He was a malcontent from day 1 when he unprofessionally skipped the PJ mtg and rumbled about disrespect at every possible turn. I mean the thing when Fizdale (rightly or wrongly) said he wasn’t running at full speed yet and then he goes to Instagram to dispute it instead of talking to the coach was real prima donna stuff right out of the Melo play book. I liked KP but I think he’s a melodramatic immature kid w an overblown sense of his place. Hope he gets his money but never lives up to the hype and Dallas is screwed.
Hoping Dallas gets screwed is kinda like world peace; all right thinking people are on board.
This is a moribund organization that has been a dumpster fire for two entire decades. This organization fails in spectacular, operatic ways. It’s not just low-key mediocre sucking like the Hornets or Kings or something, it’s high-profile incompetence that forces you to rubberneck at it.
So no, I don’t blame KP for orchestrating his exit instead of sticking it out with Knox and Ntilikina and whatever other scrubs are on the roster.
Last week, as a fan of basketball, I was making peace with the subconscious thoughts of the Mavs (if not the Knicks) landing at the top of the pile, as I wanted to watch Luka throw lobs to Zion for the rest of eternity. Now I’m realizing that the best thing for us is for Luka to suck, which, while unlikely, is a thing that I may, deep down, wish for in the future. And I don’t like that.
F–k Bill Simmons.
I would hate it if the Knicks gave kyrie the max. His injury concerns are worse then porzingis. The only way I would want him if it’s completely necessary in order to get Durant to sign here. Giving him the max would be to me like giving amare the max. You know it might be good for a year or two. But it’s gonna get ugly at some point. His injury history is scary.
I don’t think KP did anything “wrong” either, per se. It’s just that we in the lofty world of KB have a mountain of evidence to conclude that his perception of himself as a player was far above who he really was as a player. Now in marketing terms, he was spot on in believing that the broader perception of his market value (based mostly on hype and much less so than production) was sky high and that he should leverage that to get what he wanted (whatever that is, we really have no idea where he sees himself winding up in 5 years.)
So his leveraging his perceived value and hype, via the pouting, the dismissiveness, the manipulation, the passive-aggressive no-show stuff, etc. to run Phil and Horny out of town and to clown the new management team all seem to have been part of the master plan. It just seems annoying because he also portrayed an “I love NY” persona and a desire to be “the man” here in the greatest American city.
Whatever, it gives us solace to know that at the very least, Perry and Mills were willing to take a bold, measured step and swallow their pride, capitulating to KP and owning the TH2 error while most likely improving our long-term possibilities. We here at KB know that the outcome of this trade is totally dependent on what Mills and Perry do with this golden opportunity. At the very least, it depends on what happens after Plan A fails and we don’t land 2 of the top-tier FAs. That will be the biggest test of managerial competence since Phil arrived and squandered an opportunity to get value for Chandler, ditch Melo, and initiate a proper rebuild. I, for one, believe that Perry has been very measured and true to the healthy rebuild. He probably struck out on Knox, but made up for it with a home run on Mitch and a triple on Trier. He hit a double with Fiz and at least a double with this trade. Will he swing for the fences next time if the pitches are out of the strike zone or settle for a walk? Time will tell.
What are the odds they get the first pick, Dsj becomes an above average starting point guard, And they sign Kawhi and Durant. Or somehow Durant and klay Thompson end up here. And you have a starting 5 of dsj, Kawhi or klay, Durant, Zion, Mitch rob.
Also the Melo for Kanter trade was a triple and the bringing in of one-year reclamation projects were low-impact strikeouts and singles (maybe Vonleh was a double).
Vonleh was an infield single
You’re starting with 14% at best, so lower than that…but more than .000001%. DSjr, much though I did not want to draft him and wouldn’t have traded for him in a vacuum, is still a decent prospect. KD has been rumored as wanting to come here for months. But Kawhi or Klay – that’s a REALLY big “or”.
@57. We can dream right? Lol.
Now it may be cold on the east coast
But on the other side of town it never rains
when it does though – does wonders for the garden…
still going through the game…couple of things standout:
clyde – I’m so glad he doesn’t do a bunch of national games…I feel a bit selfish when it comes to sharing clyde…
doris – been one of my favorite announcers for years…she may not get everything exactly right – who does?
much more often than not though – I nod my head when she talks…
damyean dotson- he looks really short out there…I’m gonna check his listed height in a minute, but – he looks small…
not sure what will happen with wes and jordan, but, no doubt I’d much much rather watch DJ out on the court than kanter…much…
I wanna watch him do his free throw dance…
oh yeah – this mention about some kind of fitness test which fiz has installed?
it was brought up when they were discussing allen losing 20 lbs…that sounds promising…
I’ll say this much about KP; as soon as his name is on a 156$M contract he’s going to find out the honeymoon is over.
You kind of sound like an asshole when you nitpick the flaws of an overall promising player on a rookie deal. I mean sure it’s understandable that in corners of the internet like this here forum where we can have a 95+ post thread about Kadeem Allen, we’re going to analyze the hell out of any important Knicks player. But generally speaking the national media (understandably) gives players a break of sorts while they’re playing for peanuts.
Once you’re making $31M AAV, though, you’re going to be expected to produce. At that point you’re actively preventing your team from acquiring other stars, so the expectation is that you’re going to fill that gap.
If 2 seasons from now Porzingis is still rebounding like a small forward, distributing his shots like Carmelo Anthony, and taking the second half of the season off between injuries and productivity drops (think about how much this one could matter on a team that’s actually, you know, good) the new-player shine will fade.
The comparison isn’t perfect because KP is already better than Wiggins ever will be, but it’s easy to forget that very few people criticized the Wolves for Wiggins’ extension. It was fait accompli that with all of those athletic gifts he’d become productive enough to justify it. Here we are a few seasons later and, well, that contract might be a bottom-10 asset in the league.
I’ll be rooting for KP and Luka because the NBA is more fun when it has good players in bunches, but I won’t be surprised if people are furiously deleting their trade-day tweets a few years from now.
remember the days when everyone knew exactly what the knicks were going to do…
Tuned in to watch Zion. Didn’t need to get Dick Vitale’s top 40 comments on the Knicks
Yeah, I’m with you. Don’t know why it isn’t brought up more often, that dude is hurt all the time. Also, he’s a flat-earther and I really don’t want to have to root for someone like that.
DSJr. Is definitely young and talented enough to up his efficiency and lower his turnover rate.
Shooting and turnovers are the easiest area to improve in and PGs are the most likely to improve. He’s a decent bet to become a viable 3rd star, imho.
Kyrie has injury concerns, but he is a legit superstar when healthy. Can’t say that about KP — yet.
Saying Kyrie is going to come has more to do with Kyrie expressing interest than evaluation of his talent. Most on this board would prefer KD and Kawhi, I assume. But Kawhi has not expressed interest, so Kyrie seems more likely.
I’m not down with Kyrie, either. He’s good, but a bit of a risk, idiot (sorry, the flat earth thing still lingers), and overrated. Very good, but not worth a max, IMHO.
Still, if KD can be signed first…
I’m not optimistic at all about Derrick Rose Jr, er, Dennis Smith Jr. Already pouting and sitting out games b/c out of petty jealousy? Yet, I’ll be rooting for him to grow up and blossom. At least he will, hopefully, replace Mudiay as starter.
I mean in retrospect. Is there any GM, or even a legitimate reporter connected to NBA front offices like Rick Bucher or an Adrian Wojnarowski for that matter, who are reporting that any GM would’ve been willing to match or better what the Mavericks gave us for KP? I’m sure the question has been raised if for no other reason to shit on the Knicks for making a bad trade. Because from everything I’ve read there’s a lot of talk about how the Knicks didn’t tell everyone and their mother about their trade interest but no actual criticism that we didn’t get enough in return for him. If anything, people like Bucher (naming an anonymous GM) is saying that he wouldn’t have given us what we got from Cuban and Nelson in this haul. Nate Duncan even went as far to actually call the trade “kind of visionary” for us. Seems to me, even though there are many here loathe to admit it, that there was a well-executed process somewhere here.
Speculation, obviously, but it speaks well of Perry that he shared our qualms about maxing KP.
What GM would tell anyone what they would have traded if they were given a chance.
at the present moment – I am scott perry…
hoping that he’s a decent human being and all…
The package we got for KP was a steal. A fairly promising prospect, an unprotected 1st, and a top 10 protected 1st. Most actual superstars get 2 1st rounders and they aren’t coming off a serious injury.
The top 10 protection isn’t terribly relevant either as most superstars ensure a team isn’t in the top 10 lottery anyway (if they are we got out from under a terrible contract).
On top of all that we dumped two salaries that may have required us to give up 1st rounders.
The real complaint is that we didn’t get an actual star back, but that’s silly. We didn’t give up an actual star.
Anonymously? Sure. They’re the same ones who are anonymously complaining that we didn’t dangle KP in front of them.
To put it in other terms: who here would have given up what the Mavericks gave to acquire KP to take on the risk of his contract, attitude, and injury history? I’m not certain the most judicious and knowledgeable among our ranks would. So why should we expect that any of the GMs with assets that Mills and Perry wanted would do as much?
As it is, the only reason I think we got our haul from the Mavs is because Cuban is in love with the idea of a Dirk 2.0 and sees KP as his way of building his franchise around another sharp-shooting European big man.
I haven’t tuned in, but Zion’s line is fucking absurd. ~18 TSA with just 3 3PA, 27 points, 2 blocks, 5 steals, 6 rebounds (3 ORB) and 2 turnovers. Just unreal.
His jump shot is too hitchy to make me think he has a chance in hell at being a plus shooter, but it just doesn’t matter at this point. Cannot wait to see how NBA-level defenders match up with him. Even the best wing defenders can’t fuck with 285 pounds of fast-twitch superiority.
Kyrie by himself would have to be a no for me for the injury concerns. If Kyrie can get AD or KD(or both?) then you have to take the risk.
Bingo! The other complaint is that we sold low on our most valued asset. But considering his well documented injury history and impeding free agency, who’s to say we didn’t sell high while there was still shine on the fender?
Oh, and Dick Vitale is insufferable on literally any topic. I think I’d rather hear Joe Buck deadpan through a tense, back-and-forth championship game than listen to Dicky V bloviate endlessly.
Yesterday morning I woke up with the Knicks having multiple albatrosses hanging around their necks in the form of Lee’s and Hardaway’s odious contracts and stairing dow the barrel of crippling the cap for 5 more years almost certainly boxed into a max contract with a player who can’t stay on the floor and play at a top level for 30 games with a.101 ws/48 for his career.
Today we have close to 70M in cap space to sign 2 max players or rent out for more assets while we continue to lose and develop other players, an unprotected (I thought the Knicks were the only team giving them away), a top ten protected pick and a player most here thought was excellent value in the 7-9 range last year.
As an added benefit they rid themselves of 2 wild and crazy guys:
Life is good!
@60 excellent take, tnfh. I called into SiriusXM NBA Radio this am (as Z-man from Knickerblogger.net!) to talk with Brian Geltzeiler (Knicks made a good trade) and Mitch Lawrence (Knicks made a bad trade). I essentially said that KB is an analytics-oriented Knicks blog and the consensus was that KP’s production does not merit a max contract and that he has major statistical holes in his game. Brian responded that he has talked at length with analytics-oriented guys who think that with KP, eye-test evaluation is more accurate because he’s such a unique physical player that he’s a statistical outlier (surprised he didn’t use the word Unicorn!). My takeaway was that neither of these two pretty smart guys seemed to think that there was any chance that KP would not be a max player if healthy.
In that sense, it seems to suggest that Perry might have considered advanced analytics (and probably had to convince Mills to do so) in concluding that KP was not going to be good enough to gamble on keeping now despite his petulance and getting better return for him later, either as a Knicks player on the court or as a trade asset. So that’s cause for optimism about decision-making with our cap space and trade assets going forward.
On the other hand, the way they are fawning over Mudiay and that they drafted Knox suggests that eye-test based decisions are still very much a big part of what we do.
How many people here really care so much about Brooklyn that they wouldn’t have engaged them?
Because I would have been extremely happy letting the Nets max his overrated ass if they would have given us Allen, picks, and taken back the same contracts. 48 minutes of Allen and Mitch protecting the rim at ~$4mm in salary would have been really nice.
It’s literally impossible to know if they would have done that, but it seems reasonable.
can zion really play at 285, is that even healthy?
he’s only 18…what if he gets even bigger?
what positions can he guard?
yeah, it was almost worth having to listen to vitale to watch zion play…
nice interview with zion’s mom…she had a pretty focused dialogue stream going on…
the knicks have done a good job at bringing in personalities that do well under the bright lights…
even kanter…unfortunately there’s just a huge disconnect between his stats and contribution to the team on court…
not to say kanter couldn’t be useful in certain situations…it’ll be interesting to see where he lands, and, how many minutes a game he averages…
I doubt that the Nets would have entertained that trade. They seem pretty shrewd and Allen is playing out of his mind. A better question is: would KP take the QO and then sign a max deal with the Nets in 2020?
that trade was a little risky for the tank though…
not only did we cut money from the roster (hopefully including enes and mud soon).
we’ll have cut a lot of negative (or in lee’s case neutral) performers…
dennis smith jr and deandre jordan together alone could cost us a loss or two…
Would never have happened from a commercial perspective. Selling your biggest asset, franchise cornerstone to your market rival is something the NY teams never do for obvious brand competition reasons. How many trades have the Islanders/Rangers, Mets/Yankees, Giants/Jets, or Knicks/Nets made in their franchise histories? I think we might be able to count them on two hands combined.
lakers are probably shopping for firsts…
josh hart for the second of dallas’s first round picks…
I hear ya, I’ve just literally never cared about the Nets. They’re nothing like the Yankees are to the Mets. And it’s not like we’re giving them Anthony Davis.
its not hard to take an eye test argument to kps game… he plays like a pussy…. outside of his first 3 months in the league he never hit the boards hard and always lost gas as the season wore on….
and as he would like to talk about his work ethic the only thing he ever added to his game rhat made any difference…. was that silly crossover that actually made him worse….
After we don’t win the lottery we should offer like 4 or 5 #1 picks to whoever does. I think college/draft people are underrating Zion.
I don’t know about 4 or 5, but the two we got from Dallas and whatever one we got this year should be good enough I would think.
call of the night on the game (kadeem allen took a charge under the basket from jaylen brown)…
mark jones (after watching the replay): “wow, allen left his feet – both feet…well sold”
from what I’ve seen he can do whatever he wants
Like, imagine the numbers Zion would be putting up if RJ Barrett wasn’t taking 20 shots a game.
so if we draft “the guy” maybe we don’t go get a “premier/top tier” player…
for the record, other than kevin durant, i’d pass on everyone else…
try to get good short term deals on statistically established 🙂 players…
develop your talent…
I kind of wish we could keep DJ though…him and mitchrob are the opposite of the modern 5, but, you’d secure your defense around the rim – and, as a bonus, get a few good ball handlers and it would be lob city 2.0
I’d be pretty upset if we drafted Zion just to trade him for Anthony Davis. The number one pick in this draft is worth more to me than the $70M in cap space we just created.
Check out Michael Rappaport’s message to KP!
@93 — how would you feel if the Knicks traded next year’s #1, the 2 Dallas #1’s, Smith, Kanter and Lance Thomas (the last two to match salaries) for Davis?
fyi Durant’s decline phase already begun according to VORP, WS/48 and BPM. Just in time for the Dolan’s to max him. Perfect.
If we get Zion, for me, we 100% keep him. He’s too good and he’s going to be under a very good contract for 4 years. Then the Knicks can use a max slot for someone and still have 20 millions or something left to build a team around those guys. It’s the ideal scenario for me, even though it’s obviously unlikely due to the lottery odds.
If this pick doesn’t get us Zion or it’s impossible to trade up for him at a fair price, then search for good trades. I love Morant as a prospect and would really like to draft him too, but after that it gets really uncertain and difficult to predict.
We hated you.
We loved you.
Time passed, we hate you and love you.
I love AD. He’s an actual max player. 538 has him worth $288M between last year and 2022. Even at $46M AAV he could still outperform his contract — truly an amazing thing to say about a player.
The Knicks will be unbelievably thin with Davis at 40% of the cap and no future picks. Frank currently has a -5.2 BPM and probably has zero trade value beyond a future 2nd. Knox has a -5.9 BPM. Trier is at -3.6.
Vonleh looks like a decent garbageman but could ask for 3 years, $18M, which would be an overpay just for playing hard on defense (a rare Knicks feat).
Trading future picks for any win-now move will lead to slightly-reduced losing with a hard cap on team ceiling. Davis is a superstar. The Knicks do not need a superstar today. They need solid value contracts and cap space to pounce when the win curve dictates such a move. And they definitely should not give up what positive assets they have for the privilege of giving one of the largest contracts in the league. The Warriors, Rockets and Raptors are all-in because they have contenders. We are not there yet.
They need to stop swinging for the fences and draft guys like Brandon Clarke, who is absolutely pounding opponents with hyperefficient play but is slotted at #17 on Tankathon, #44 on NBADraft, and #23 on ESPN. This is a guy who’s a 6’8″ PF/C with the 2nd BPM, 2nd in WS48, 8th in conference points produced (incredible for a guy who scores only 16 a game), 8th in TS%, 1st in ORtg and 6th in DRtg, yet he is not even in the lottery conversation. Why? Height and PPG, I’d guess. Hasn’t seemed to bother him a bit, and Gonzaga is 20-2 with the highest SRS in team history. He is one of what we need.
If we want to see the Knicks put together a serious defense and an efficient offense, we need to start pulling for the low-cost, high-production guys, not the 3-on-3 starlets or the wingspan gurus. Knox, Frank and Trier will not suddenly become studs if Davis puts on the blue and orange.
@99 agree on all counts. Unless it’s a steal, keep all future picks until we build a team.
As someone who watches the games, I can tell you that Zion is not 285 pounds. I don’t know why some sites list him at that weight. I doubt he’s more than 260.
Regarding his defense, yes, he can do whatever he wants. He’s the closest defensively to Lebron I’ve ever seen.
He’s also unselfish almost to a fault offensively.
He’s going to be a joy to watch for the next 10 years and deserves better than the Knicks organization.
Here are a few Zion highlights just from today. Additionally, Tre Jones completely shut down Ponds.
Zion can shutdown an NBA 3 and 4. From what I’ve seen he can probably do the same to an NBA 1, 2, & 5 as well.
But… the allure of MSG!… the Mecca of Basketball!… this doesn’t equate, so it can’t be.
Zion’s upside as a defender is Draymond.
I flip over to XMNba occasionally and I am so sad to have missed this. I always wonder why a smart KB guy doesn’t call in and set these radio folks straight. (I’d call in, but I stopped using the telephone years ago:)
I do kind of wonder: how will Zion perform in a 3×3 setting?
Man amongst boys, lord. He really is ridiculous and I wouldn’t trade him for anyone in the NBA. That is an insane thing to say about a college player I recognize, but yeah.
I’d take Doncic because I think he’s more likely to make his teammates better, but yeah, Zion is probably #2 in players I would start a franchise with today. Maybe 3 after Jokic.
Maybe Giannis. He’s only 24.
It’s hard to say how valuable AD was a defender in college aside from really fucking valuable, but Zion might be putting together the best freshman NCAA season I can remember
Yeah, Giannis can play some amazingly inspired defense too when he’s focused on it. I wouldn’t trade Zion simply put, just draft the kid and work around him. There’s way too much talent, production and potential with him to overthink stuff. It’s a damn shame he’s so dominant that there’s no one that can play the role of Ayton, Bagley and Trae Young, so that we could get him even if we don’t end 1st overall.
I can’t wait to find out more about what happened with KP as time goes on. Despite all the phil Jackson disrespect, etc etc…I think it’s a follow-the-money situation. The not giving him a contract last summer was #1 and then I think they told him they wouldn’t max him until seeing him back on the court was #2.
Going on record as saying I don’t want Kd and kyrie. Kd is 30 and has some injury history…kyrie is young but has bigtime injury history. I say rent the cap space for picks and keep building!!!
I hate Michael rappaport, but that made me smile.
My last point is, despite kp being not nearly as efficient as he should be, he will get there. His only Risk is health (both blunt injury and anemia if that really impacts his late season performance). If he’s healthy, he’s gold…he’s a guy you overpay lower current performance betting on the upside…NOT thjr. I respect holding off on a max cause of health though. Time will judge this trade but despite my sadness at my broken toy I’m at peace with it for now.
so Cleveland is going to beat Dallas, because Timmy isn’t playing yet. Is that Ironic, or is it carma, idk
And Luka has 28 / 5 / 5 at the half and Dallas is only winning by 3… damn how special is this kid.
I hear you, EO. If KP ever does become a true max player with an 8-10 year HOF run, no matter what happens here, it will really hurt. And there’s a reasonable chance that that happens. So I’ll talk myself into believing that it was for the best, but deep down it will always hurt at least somewhat to see him playing for another team.
zion doesn’t come without risks… although they are rather small compared to everyone else…
players who rely on strength and girth in college usually find the pro’s to be a lot more difficult…. jahlil okafor comes to mind as he had a very dominant 2p fg% also…. but there’s a long list of short but wide players who bully weaker dudes in college but fall apart when their one trick gets smacked down against tougher comp…
zion’s not exactly like those guys… but another player that more closely fits zion’s profile tho… is jamal mashburn…. he may not have had the same impact in college… but he was equally strong, quick in a big frame with a very diverse skillset…. and he couldn’t quite translate that level of dominance in the pro’s…. another who we’re all familiar with is michael beasley…. point being is that short but strong players generally face some unique adjustments to their game when they get to the pro’s…
what zion has in his favor is that he’s already a fair bit better than any of them at the same age… the defensive numbers are quite staggering and the eye test lines up with how diverse an athletic package zion is…. he is probably closer to charles barkley than any of the aforementioned names fwiw so it’s not a huge concern….
but that’s one of the things to watch out for…. i don’t classify him as the A++ prospect like anthony davis was or lebron or duncan or even towns was…. he’s probably in the durant class of prospects which means he’s probably gonna be great… but there’s some challenges in realizing his enormous potential…
Watching this golden state game. Any chance klay Thompson goes elsewhere after this year?
The closest guy to Zion was LJ. Similarly dominant though LJ was older. LJ was never as great as the hype (even pre back injury) so it does give one pause. Zion is bigger though and even more athletic so I’m pretty sure he’ll be just fine.
@115, without his injury history, I wouldnt have had an issue paying zingy the max, which is in the minority here. He needed a really good pass-first PG and to adjust his shot selection. But he was already a plus defender. He’s the guy you over pay a little. Oh well, if nothing else, this will make for classic NY theatre. I imagine his return to the garden is Lebron-like the first time he went back to Cleveland. Or maybe better said Riley back in the garden as heat coach. We don’t take betrayal well. Hell..we booed Lebron for spurning is.
yea good call.. how could i forget lj….
lj and those rebels took college ball by storm…. was really one of the funnest college teams to watch…. and lj put up some eyepopping numbers on those teams…
and its a similar thing… phenomenal 2p fg% but around .500 in the pros… thats still good but to dominate you need it to be a fair bit higher….
i would put money on the over for zion but we have sorta seen his ilk before… so its important to put that context around the hype…
I haven’t seen Zion play or looked at his stats, but if all the KB hype here around Zion is just to land the next Larry Johnson, that would be a pretty terrible outcome. He wasn’t even that good before he turned old fast. In the end LJ was a totally forgettable NBA player.
LJ was great. I think they mean pre-injury LJ. I’ve watched 2 duke games and I’m sold. Can’t shoot yet though. I say yet like it’s a foregone conclusion. C’mon dammit!!! It’s our turn !!
I remember LJ very well. There are similarities, but Zion is in a class by himself.
Lakers-warriors was awesome for 3.5 quarters. Rondo is such a brilliant point guard. He suffers from really bad marketing. But he’s always amazingly effective. I bet his departure is the leading factor in pelicans underperforming this year.
I just simulated the draft as the current standings are, and well…. we’d better not have our hopes up with getting Zion. We’d better have a plan B, C, D and E on ready.
Cam Reddish, here we come!
Personally, I’d trade up to get Zion. He seems a once-in-a-generation type talent.
100% young Barkley.
Barkley on a ketogenic diet……
Harden had 41 points. . .and six steals and four blocks??
The issue with Zion is that the NBA has changed so dramatically from Barkley and LJ’s day. Remember, if you were to look at what NBA player from the 1990s that Lebron James looked the most like, physically, it would be Karl Malone (Malone was 6’9″ and 250 pounds while Lebron ia 6’8″ and 250 pounds) and yet Lebron plays much more of a guard-like game while using his forward-like abilities to make himself even better than normal (when he unleashed the post-up game, he became a sort of transcendent player).
So similarly, if Charles Barkley and Larry Johnson were coming into the NBA today, their games would be much different. Pre-injury LJ was a good player, but think about post-injury LJ. He remained a very good (but not great) player, but in a completely different type of fashion, using the outside game a lot more. Now, imagine pairing early-LJ (with the explosive, above the rim game) and late LJ (with the three-point range that people sometimes forget he started with in his last season with Charlotte, right after the injury) into a single LJ. That would be a great player.
Therefore, when comparing him to guys like Barkley and LJ, it’s really just the similar body types. I guess, then, I’d go with Barkley. Barkley in today’s NBA would be amazing.
Mark Jackson is a slimy mofo. Using his ABC gig to pimp the Lakers’ shitty trade offer for Anthony Davis when he clearly wants to get the Lakers coaching gig is ridiculous. Luke Walton is not a bad young coach but he is way out of his depth dealing with Lebron and friends. It would probably be for the best if Walton just went somewhere else.
The Rockets have been offering a first round pick to get rid of Brandon Knight’s salary. What I don’t understand about that is what is the benefit to that for them? Just saving money or what?