(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 4:24:54 PM)
Chris Haynes joins Jason Whitlock and Marcellus Wiley to discuss Kevin Durant’s impending free agency after the 2018-19 NBA season. Haynes explains why the New York Knicks may be in the running.
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 4:24:54 PM)
Chris Haynes joins Jason Whitlock and Marcellus Wiley to discuss Kevin Durant’s impending free agency after the 2018-19 NBA season. Haynes explains why the New York Knicks may be in the running.
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 3:02:04 PM)
OCTOBER 3: The Knicks have officially signed Jenkins, the team announced today (via Twitter). OCTOBER 2: Having opened up a roster spot by waiving Tyrius Walker earlier today, the Knicks will sign John Jenkins to re-fill their 20-man preseason roster, reports Marc Berman of The New York Post (Twitter links). According to Berman, Jenkins – […]
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 12:52:40 PM)
OCTOBER 3: Having secured his G League rights for Westchester, the Knicks have now waived Carr, the team announced today (via Twitter). OCTOBER 2: The Knicks have signed Phillip Carr, according to the team’s Twitter feed. Ian Begley of ESPN.com reports (Twitter link) that the contract is likely an Exhibit 10 deal. Contracts with the […]
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 8:00:00 PM)
The Knicks couldn’t escape the second preseason game without an injury.
Mitchell Robinson, the impressive second-round draft pick, sprained his right ankle in the fourth quarter of Wednesday’s 107-102 victory over the Nets. He required assistance leaving the court but said in the locker room the…
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 6:15:00 PM)
Jeff Hornacek is still collecting a paycheck from the Knicks and has been silent as the team owner threw him under the bus.
But the former Knick coach resurfaced during training camp with the Nets, watching training camp in the outer borough after an invitation from coach Kenny Atkinson.
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 12:30:00 PM)
John Jenkins, a veteran guard who played for Westchester in the G-League two seasons ago, was signed by the Knicks on Wednesday, the team announced in a press release.
Jenkins, 6-4, 215, was originally a first-round pick (23rd overall) of the Atlanta Hawks in the 2012 NBA Draft. The former Vanderbilt…
(Thursday, October 04, 2018 12:24:51 AM)
Courtney Lee entered training camp having to prove he’s worth a rotation spot despite not being a big part of the team’s future. Lee celebrated his 33rd birthday Wednesday and he’s had better ones. Still suffering from a neck strain he picked up on the third day of training camp practices last Thursday night, Lee…
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 7:23:45 PM)
One game after baiting Washington’s Markieff Morris into an ejection, Knicks rookie center Mitchell Robinson was forced to leave early, suffering a sprained right ankle early in the fourth quarter of the Knicks’ 107-102 victory over the Nets at Barclays Center on Wednesday. Afterward, the Knicks’ mercurial rookie said he believed he would be ready…
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 6:16:19 PM)
The best rookie on the floor wasn’t Kevin Knox or Mitchell Robinson or even the Nets’ first-rounder Dzanan Musak, who didn’t see the floor. It became undrafted Allonzo Trier, the 6-foot-5 shooting guard from Arizona who lit up Brooklyn for 20 first-half points in 16 minutes and made major headway in eventually landing a roster…
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 6:05:49 PM)
Ex-Knick badboy J.R. Smith is expected to accept a deal that requires him to pay $600 to a fan whose phone he tossed outside a Chelsea bar in exchange for dropped criminal charges. Smith, 32, now with the Cleveland Cavaliers, turned himself in to police in August after the fan said Smith threw his phone…
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 5:01:41 PM)
David Fizdale didn’t think Markieff Morris had it right when he called Knicks center Mitchell Robinson “a stupid-ass rookie’’ after the Wizards forward was ejected in the preseason opener Monday in Washington. The Knicks coach defended Robinson, whom Morris claimed said something that crossed the line when they were alongside each other during free throws….
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 8:06:18 AM)
Though the Knicks were largely ignored in the dozens of categories of the NBA GM survey, rookie Kevin Knox and Kristaps Porzingis got some props. Porzingis was voted second in “Best International Player” with 10 percent of the vote — with first-place Giannis Antetokounmpo garnering 73 percent. Porzingis did not receive a single vote in…
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 10:05:58 PM)
Knicks rookie Mitchell Robinson had to be helped off the court after spraining his right ankle during the second half of Wednesday night’s preseason game against the Nets.
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 10:11:54 PM)
Undrafted rookie G Allonzo Trier had the hot hand with 25 points in the Knicks’ victory over the Nets, 107-102, in Brooklyn.
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 8:50:05 PM)
Allonzo Trier drained 20 points over 16 minutes in the first half, as he led a Knicks comeback.
(Wednesday, October 03, 2018 2:00:01 PM)
The Knicks reportedly have a “very good shot” at luring Kevin Durant away from the super-team Warriors.
107 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.10.04)”
Mudiay’s transparent and unchanging awfulness is going to be a rubber meets the road situation when it’s time for cuts. This team has a lot of guards worthy of minutes. Then it has Mudiay. If he’s still here when the season opens, one or more of three things will be true:
1)Perry and Mills have blind spots they’re reluctant to move past easily.
2) Fiz has a blind spot about his ability to coach up even the most useless players.
3)The tank is real.
4) They’re patient.
ZOMAX – Zomax is a non-steroid drug or a buzz saw
KNOXZEMA – smooth
For anyone who watched several hours of Franks Strasbourg video, it was so damn obvious that he was not a PG nor would ever be one. Many here based rosy projections of his development as a league guard on his “dominance” at the U18 tournament, which is just as dumb as saying that a guy should be drafted high based on a strong NCAA performance (or shouldn’t be drafted based on a weak one.)
This is not intended to rehash a conversation about whether we should have drafted Frank or not, that’s water under the bridge and everyone knows each other’s feelings on that by now. This is more generally about the concept of suggesting that a young player can completely reinvent himself to fit a narrative based on scanty evidence. The sooner that coaches and management understand that it is counterproductive to force Frank to become something he isn’t suited for, the better it will be for him and for the team. Or alternatively, SEND HIM TO THE G-LEAGUE and play him 36 mpg at the point guard position until he either improves or shows that he can’t play the position.
As I’ve said all along, his greatest upside is as a 3 and D player with some additional skills. Which is fine, every team needs those. If those additional skills develop, he will be more like Kawhi. If not, then more like Marcus Smart. Either way, that’s the way to go with him.
Good start to the preseason. I think you probably have to convert Trier, he’s just played too well to keep on a 2-way, but it seems unlikely they cut Mudiay. Maybe they end up eating Kornet’s $1.6 million if the Noah/Lee situations linger. Even assuming they keep him, there are so many guys on the roster who should get minutes ahead of Mudiay, not just Trey and Frank. Trier, Baker and Dotson should all be higher in the pecking order. Contract aside, it’s been nice to remember how fun it is to watch Ron Baker play preseason basketball like it’s world championship roller derby. Those guys all have some combination of playing harder, having more potential, being better, or all three compared to Mudiay.
Lance made a few really nice passes yesterday which historically is not really a Lance thing. Man if you could have put Lance’s brain in Anthony Randolph’s body he’d be AD by now. But this is kind of thing that people say who don’t realize how important brains are to most basketball players in the first place so pretend I didn’t.
Knox’s defense is as interesting as Frank’s offense. He has the widest stance I’ve ever seen from a non-center so it takes him about a week to take that first defense step. This is definitely a problem and he’s been blown buy some genuine scrubs. But he’s also not a complete zero because he mostly hustles and has decent instincts and gets his arms in the the passing lane (though so far his weakside help reaction time is actually terrible so his long arms aren’t coming in to block shots). I seem to remember Detlef Schrempf as a guy who got somewhat less bad over time at preventing the blow-by. I dunno how often it happens. Robinson says his injury is nothing.
Touche. But Mudiay hasn’t shown any improvement in his game since he’s been here, or really since he’s been in the NBA. If Fiz is true to his word about players earning minutes and roles based solely on performance, then at a minimum, Mudiay has no business playing a second of time ahead of every other guard on the roster (plus someone half on the roster like Trier). I have no idea if we have the ability to send him to the G-League, but I’d probably do that ahead of sending Frank there.
I think Fizdale has specifically highlighted Mudiay as someone he’s excited to work with. I like what I’ve seen/heard from Fizdale so far but just about every coach has an inflated idea of their ability to “fix” players who “have all the tools.”
If/when we make a cut for Trier I doubt it’s Mudiay for this reason. My guess is they convert the contract once the Noah situation is resolved.
It’s clear that the Knicks FO did a great job finding and signing Trier and adding him to a stellar rookie class that includes Knox and Robinson. Trier can do something that no other Knick guard can do. He can break down the defense. His play reminds me of Jeremy Lin. He’s ferocious and fearless driving down the lane.
Kudos to to Kanter for a 20-20 game. Wow. I hope the Knicks keep him after this year. I just love what he brings.
Where are our 3-pt shooters. That’s the hole we need to plug. This team won’t win consistently in this league unless they start taking 8-10 shots beyond the arc every quarter.
The defense showed up sometimes last night. Lots of block but also a lot of guys losing their man.
Mudiay looks lost. He needs to go to the G-league.
He talked up Mudiay when hired and over the summer, but has he commented on him yet during the preseason? But, yes, even more far more accomplished coaches than Fiz can fool themselves into thinking they can unlock the potential in a guy who just doesn’t have It.
Pay no attention to Z-man sprinkling his toxic brand of frankinsense. Here’s what he should have written:
I’d like to recommend an approach to Fiz that might make everyone happy. Start Burke/Timmy/Courtney/Lance/Enes. But then give substantial burn to a unit of Frank/Trier/Dot/Knox/Mitch executing plenty of PnR’s. Let the guys who might have a long-term future get plenty of minutes together.
It appears someone feels even more strongly about Kobe than I do…
If 4,000+ minutes of terrible NBA basketball didn’t convince them that Mudiay was irredeemable, I have a hard time thinking a bad preseason is going to make them cut the cord. He’ll probably be on the roster.
And he’s the best tank driver in the league, so I hope I’m right.
Hezonja is the best illustration I’ve ever seen of how high the talent level is in the NBA. He’s listed at 6’ 8” but appears to be just under 9 feet tall. He has the shooting form of a two guard. He can handle the ball with confidence. He can pump fake a 3, put the ball in he floor with his off hand, then throw an in-motion alley-oop in traffic to a cutting big. He mostly tries on D and even if he didn’t, he looks long enough to stand on the free throw line and guard both the rim and the 3 ball.
Yet he does not actually look like he belongs. Everything he can do he either can’t quite do well enough, or does too slowly for the speed of the game. He looks like he should be an outlier Magic Johnson/Larry Bird mix in a really good league that’s not the NBA.
I could care less if Frank ends up being a PG or not. He’s a good passer and if he can just take and hit open shots and improve his offense to “adequate” he can be a very good wing player in this league. He is all ready lock down on Defense. He can easily guard 1 through 3 and I believe this season will shut down some of the top players at those positions. He can guard the 4 in a pinch too. Having an elite, versatile defender like that is a huge luxury for a coach. He’s going to be a very useful player for us and he plays smart too. He will slowly get better on offense. He’s never going to be elite on offense and he won’t be a PG but I’m so glad we drafted him.
Hezonja should not be getting any regular playing time if he keeps this shit up.
Frank wasn’t drafted to be a PG, he was drafted to be a “triangle PG” by the moron hippie who was running the team at that time, the guy who got fired right after drafting Frank to play in a system that is now extinct. There’s no such thing as a “triangle PG” anymore, and Frank is clearly not a regular PG, so hopefully the team stops trying to jam the square peg into the round hole and develops him as what he is, which is a defense-oriented off-guard.
Do you think Jackson ever suggested a team-building trip to rural Humboldt County? Coachella? Burning Man?
Game Two Hot Takes:
I almost feel sorry for Mudiay. He’s just so clueless out there. He has the vague idea to drive, but then has no real plan for what to do next. He can’t finish or shoot. He is trying harder on D than last year, but still seem to give up when he’s screened well. Burke, Ntilikina, Trier, and Baker all bring more to the table than he does.
Hezonja looks totally lost; he’s got this deer in the headlights look on his face at all times. Also, his body language is all weird. He seems to stand very stiff and upright all the time.
Kanter does what he does so well, you just wish he could be a slightly below average defender…
Agree on Knox on D. I think this is why stretch four is his idea slot. Most threes will just blow by him regularly.
Also, Burke is a major weakness on D as well, though he tries hard. I wonder if Burke and Trier are kind of redundant players, sort of like instant offense guys well suited to be 6th or 7th man types. Burke may want to get PAID after this year, whereas the Knicks will hopefully lock Trier up for 3 or 4 seasons soon at a reasonable rate. I’d like to see Frank and Trier play together a lot…
for the most part when your a/to ratio is 2.0 or better and assists per 36 is above 5.. you are by all accounts in the upper echelon of ball handling in the nba….
frank is not a ball dominant guard…. he never will be… he’s gonna be a low usage guy but there have been many low usage pg’s who have succeeded in the nba….
that is not the same thing as not being a pg…. just because he’s not kyle lowry or steph curry or lillard or whoever… does not mean he can’t carve out a nice role… and I was probably his biggest critic coming into the draft…
seriously an a/to of 2 at this young of an age is a great achievement…. and the eye test sort of shows someone who’s too passive and reluctant to take it to the hole but being an offguard or wing and doing even more of that is not gonna make him better….
he needs the ball in his hands more and test his limits… if it’s not enough by year 3 then you at least know what you have… saying he should just be shooting is restricting the possible things he can be and at that age… that’s a pretty bad development philosophy…
Burke is much more of a natural playmaker than Trier seems to be so far. He’s not a pure point guard, but he’s by far the closest thing this roster has by now, as opposed to two guys who are probably better off as combo guards (Frank, Ron) and one guy who is just terrible at basketball (Mudiay). Having a pure point may not matter that much if Fiz is really running a variant of the motion offense, but Burke still provides value that nobody else can to this roster as currently constructed. That said, if Trier proves to be for real, and/or Frank gets more run at the point and does well with it, I’d be comfortable using Burke as a sweetener to offload the Lee or Hardaway contracts.
IMHO, Mudiay’s problems lie in his head. As a trauma-aware manager and developer of talent, its been my experience for folks that have been abused enough then find ways to beat themselves. Bad decisions and sudden clumsiness are good examples. I suspect that Perry and Fiz (both of whom are not afraid to cut ties with players) sees talent that is being obstructed in this way.
Having also succeeded in helping folks in those circumstances, I know it’s possible, but requires considerable patience. If they succeed, it’ll look one of two ways:
1. A gradual improvement over time, usually months.
2. A more sudden change, almost like hitting a switch.
The same may apply to Hezonja as well.
Agreed. Obviously we need to see Trier a lot more to see if he is for real, and at some point he’s going to need to give the ball up more as other teams start to key on him.
At this point Burke looks to me like a nice “hold the fort” guy. He’ll probably start (and deserves to over Mudiay certainly) and be decently productive, but he’ll likely want a big extension and is a serious liability on defense.
It’ll be interesting to see what the Knicks end up doing with Kanter and Burke. Try to extend one or both, or just trade off in January for whatever.
Yeah, Timmy needs to become more consistent, or they should look to try to unload him somewhere…if they can find a taker.
Interesting insight, but I just want to clarify that you’re talking about on-court “trauma,” right? You’re not saying that he was abused as a child or something.
Edit: Nah, I just read about his background, had completely forgotten. I won’t speculate as to whether it affects his basketball, but yeah, that’s some real shit right there.
Cautious optimism because Knicks. That being said, if Knox, Mitch and ISO Zo are above average rotation guys, that is an amazing draft. This speeds up our rebuild big time and makes us a desired situation for the big FA’s this year. Finally light at the end of the long dark tunnel.
I watched a lot of Trier in college and I’m not that surprised, he can definitely score. Good handle, can get to the basket, decent outside shot, and plays with confidence. If they can coach him up on defense that will really elevate his value and minutes. As you’ve probably noticed he won’t be getting many assists, he’s rarely looking to pass.
Looks like the Knicks may have hit pay dirt with this rookie class. Finally some good news, although I still prefer the tank and a top 3 pick in next year’s draft. That’s where keeping Mudiay and playing Lance comes in….
Yep, now cut Mudiay. How did the Knicks go from not having a real PG since 2013 to have two young dribble-penetrating guys on rookie/2-way deals who actually have paint instincts? Jesus, is this what optimism feels like?
Wait… the tank! Keep Mudiay! Start Mudiay!
I hate to say I want to keep Mudiay for the tank, but… yeah, I do. Let’s get him, Hez, Knox and Kanter all playing as many minutes as possible. Straight up Rommel.
Meh, the tank odds are flattened now. Might as well play the best dudes and hope things work out.
There are also four lottery selections now instead of three, so if you’re a middling bad team, you have a pretty good chance of making that top four. Right now Tankathon has the Knicks as the 6th worst team in the league, and that gives them a 37% chance of getting a top four pick.
We are in a different position now that we were last year. Right now we have such a huge surplus of shooting guards keeping Mudiay around to try to develop his shooting and defensive skills doesn’t seem like much of a priority. Frank has enough play making skills to be combined with someone other than Burke and still have a competent balanced 2-way back court. If they decide to give Mudiay more time because of his “talent”, I just hope they cut Kornet instead of Baker, Dotson, or Vonleh. I consider those 3 very worthy of keeping around for now.
At some point we are going to have to make some moves.
Hardaway, Frank, Dotson, Trier, Baker, Lee, and Mudiay is way too many guys that can play the SG. It’s even too much if you exclude Mudiay because he’s cut or consider him just a PG. Baker, Lee, and Hardaway will be a bit problematical to trade for now and I don’t want to trade Frank, Dotson or Trier. Interesting short term situation.
I’m not a huge Hezonja fan, but it looks like he’s “pressing” to me. He’s trying too hard to do well. I wouldn’t assume the worst about him after 2 pre season games even if that scenario is the most likely one given his past performances accompanied by what we see now. You can’t turn a player around in a few weeks.
I think 2 to 1 a/to is bare minimum for a point guard- acceptable (though still crappy) if you’re a good scoring point but godawful for a low usage point. I looked at guys last year with assist % above 20 and usage below 20 and the only guy with a worse a/to ratio than Frank was the corpse of Mario Chalmers. Most of the guys were at least 2.5/1 with a good number well over 3/1. I think Frank might eventually be okay as a back-up point but right now he’s not close.
My guess is that they keep Mudiay and waive one of Dotson or Baker (if they can’t move Lee) to make room for Trier if he keeps this up. Let’s face it- the Knicks have Hardaway, Lee, Frank, and Trier above them on the 2 guard depth chart and neither guy looks to have a ceiling better than decent back-up. Mudiay is flat out terrible but he’s an actual point guard- I think you might be better off playing either Baker or Dotson at the point right now but given that Mudiay is still two years younger than both of them and has better point guard skills (he gets in the lane fairly easily and has decent court vision) he’s probably the keeper for this year. And if you’re looking to tank he’s definitely the guy to roll out there at point.
I’d give Burke s heavy load of minutes, like 2500 minutes, and then send Trier out there as the lead guard for another chunk of the PG minutes. He won’t pass much but he looks like an ideal second unit scoring guard.
Mudiay I would just cast adrift on an ice floe. That seems to be his best role. Not playing in the NBA.
The problem with playing Mudiay is that although it will help tanking it will hurt the improvement of the other Knicks on the court with him. I would keep him on the bench and see if Fiz can fix him.
I’d use Mudiay as a “sweetener” on a trade. NBA front offices are dumb and I bet he still has a little marginal value. My trade would be Lee + Mudiay to the Suns for Chandler. The Suns want to win as evidenced by their signing of Ariza. I’d even try and squeeze Melton from them if I could.
If they play based on merit, Mudiay is not going to play much. If there’s still some kind of hierarchy based partly on merit but also partly on draft position and experience, they may continue to look at him for a few weeks of the regular season before moving him out of the rotation (unless of course he looks better than we’ve seen so far). Tank is not a word on anyone’s mind.
Trier and Frank might work out OK. Trier can handle the ball, break down the defense and score, but the play making won’t be totally barren with Frank out there with him. If you get some play making from both, it might work fine.
There’s no point playing Mudiay if the alternative is giving more minutes to young players like Frank, Burke and Trier.
It’s one thing to play Mudiay over Jarrett Jack, which i was totally for. But playing him instead of actual young players with talent and promise should not be done, tanking or not.
These three guys will struggle and there will be plenty of losses anyway, this team won’t need Mudiay to tank or whatever. He’s just dead weight. I feel bad for the guy, but maybe leaving the NBA is the best option for him to fit somewhere.
And this semantical minutiae is going to attract free agents, got it.
“Straight up Rommel.”
Jesus. I know, eye test and all, but that guy is absolutely an NBA player. How did he not get drafted?
I hadn’t really given much thought to Trier, but here’s where he stacked up last year:
USG% 5th (career)
Points Produced/Game 6th
Also 10th overall in OBPM in the NCAA. He might be a better steal than even Robinson.
When even Jowles is getting pumped up by preseason highlights, you know something interesting is happening.
Yeah, Trier’s college stats are really nice. Career .628 TS% across three seasons, including .656 last year. Sky-high FG% on 2-point attempts, also 7.3 FTA per 40 minutes.
I didn’t say it was going to attract free agents, but it is far from minutiae. It’s a significant achievement.
Yes, it could be both (1) a significant achievement for racial equality and (2) largely irrelevant to free agency decision-making.
Would anyone argue strongly against the proposition that Trier will be better than Hardaway shortly?
@48 at a fraction of the price
It’s still preseason, and he’s a rookie. He’s probably going to be pretty bad relative to the average NBA guard for at least a few months, if not a couple season. By 24 or 25, he could very well be better than Hardaway, but that’s no real feat.
I had no idea about his numbers in college, I remember seeing one Arizona game and coming away unimpressed with their team, so I didn’t pay much attention. Then on the Summer League I was also not super impressed, so this preseason performance has surprised me quite a bit. Great sign if those great performances are actually in line with his college production instead of being an outlier.
Just sign him already, or at least keep him on the roster for the first 45 days available then sign him. It would probably be better to just sign him now as if he keeps playing well his value might go up, specially a Robinson type of contract would be very good, 4 years with team options and a good value for him.
When was the last time Knicks fans almost unanimously liked both the coach and GM and fully respected them in their current positions (any color)? We like these guys because they are likable and so far they scream competence. If being black helps, that’s fine. But what matters is they are GOOD! Players (all of them) see that too.
Yeah Bruno is exactly right. I don’t think there’s too much of a need for a tank commander when your “trying to win” option is an undrafted rookie. I like the looks of Trier a lot too, but he’s very unlikely to be particularly productive this year. Very few rookies are. He’s going to make plenty of questionable choice and give a lot back on D. We have plenty of ways to be “organically” bad this year without playing Mudiay just for kicks. Given that he’s going into RFA this year and we’re clearly going to have other priorities in the offseason it might not be easy to keep him even if by some miracle he did finally show some strides this year.
Trier had 5 turnovers last night!
Z-man back on July 5, the day after Trier was signed:
Yeah, but hey, if they hadn’t spent that $71M, they’d lose it. And they’d be playing 4-on-5 too. I think that’s how it works in the NBA.
RIP, Dave Anderson. A heck of a writer.
The most likely reason that Trier didn’t get drafted was his PED suspensions. There were 2 but the second one got revoked. From what I read, he tested positive after getting treated for injuries after a car accident. The second failed test was remnants from the first test.
Trier and Robinson are both players that bring things to the table that the Knicks really don’t have elsewhere. Nobody on the Knicks has the handle that Trier has. While KP can block shots at the rim, Robinson’s blocks come at the perimeter.
I can’t wait to see the defense with KP, Frank and M-Rob on the court at the same time.
Yeah, you didn’t say it, but that is the context in which it was raised yesterday.
And, yes, it was a significant achievement, back in 2004 when it was achieved. If you want to say that Mills was technically president of MSG and Isiah was technically the POBO (The knicks didn’t technically have a GM under Isiah if I recall), that’s fine but it is just semantics.
And Isiah actually did make it a point when he arrived in NY to hire African Americans. Not just players (he did the lateral trade of Van Horn and Doleac for Tim Thomas as Nazr Mohammed almost immediately), but in the front office too, which, ironically was at the center of Anucha Sanders’ pleadings to Steven Mills:
“Mills, an African American, was effectively the president of the place and Thomas, an African American basketball legend out of the University of Indiana and world championship teams with the Detroit Pistons, was president of the New York Knicks. Browne Sanders spoke on Friday about how a wonderful and even historic chance for all of them was ruined by Thomas… ‘I remember talking about that, or trying to, with Isiah and with Steve,’ she said. ‘I talked about how the three of us had to make the situation workable, because the opportunity was so tremendous. I tried to tell him: Where else do you see a management structure like this in sports, with three African Americans in positions like ours?’”
So, yes, significant, but in 2018 it’s hard to use it as an example of the Knicks stabilizing the ship and being more attractive to free agents with a straigh face.
Trier’s age may also have worked against him in the draft, esp. in light of the PED questions. He’s an old man by draft standards these days.
However, that also may work to his advantage as a rookie. He’s likely to be far more polished as a player right now than Knox, Ntilikina, etc.
Donnie, we’re more attractive to free agents now than we were two years ago when Phil went on his final spending spree. You had credible writers (I forget if it was Lowe or Woj) tweeting that free agents viewed us the destination of last resort. Our President was feuding with the GOAT in public and arguing against the three point shot on Twitter. Mills, Perry, and Fizdale have gotten us back to normal. Not saying we’re the premier spot in the NBA, but normal is huge for us. We’ve gotten to the point where our front office is likely a nonfactor in a player’s decisions. That’s an improvement. And no free agent is going to spare a second thinking about Mills’ role in Anucha Browne Sanders debacle.
On a related note, kyrie’s quote today is a lot more committed that his one last week. May have to stop thinking about him ever coming here now.
I could see the PED thing (which at draft time was already determined to be far less egregious than originally thought) lowering Ttier’s draft stock, even significantly, but to not get drafted at all? That seems bizarre to me. He was a top player on a top team with excellent offensive stats, good (but not great) size and a 40′ vertical. Dotson got drafted with serious rape allegations haunting him and certainly wasn’t better in college than Trier.
I think the more likely reasons are worries about defense issues and being a “me first” player. He does seem selfish with the ball, but the way he’s scoring, it seems like he’s going to benefit from NBA spacing and teammates. We’ll see.
Trier is older for the draft, isn’t physically impressive, might be a shitty defender, PED issues. Anyone know what the deal is with his rebounding numbers collapsing between his 2nd and 3rd year?
Both are true.
Drafting is not a snapshot. It’s a projection. In general, the younger you are the more upside teams will project for you. Since he was older and there were also questions about the PEDs, that was 2 small strikes against him and whatever he had shown in college to that point compared to younger and clean players. After that, he’s not exactly the most well rounded player that’s going to fill up the stat sheet. He’s a scorer.
As I noted in another thread, when we picked him up, a friend of mine that’s a college hoops junkie was totally overjoyed. He LOVED the pickup. I had never seen him play, but checked his stats immediately because my friend is more of a visual guy (but super knowledgeable). It was obvious his stats were good too. He should have been drafted, but there’s not much question why he dropped. Sometimes things are overweighted and that creates bargains. We seem to have found one.
The big thing I’ve noticed over this summer is that the national and local media has really dropped the “LOLKNICKS” articles. The articles coming out about the Knicks from ESPN, The Post, or wherever aren’t about off court dramas. Even the Noah exile has been largely a non story. In years past Phil would have been talking to the press about him and creating unnecessary drama. People aren’t laughing at us and all the articles basically say “the knicks won’t likely be good this year but they’re developing and got a clear path to being good in the next few years.” That is HUGE for us.
The press is biased. They like the people in power in NY now. That’s why they are mostly quiet. Even if we lose 10 of 11, Knox is going through a rough patch, and someone drafted below him is killing it, there won’t be much of a peep. These guys are “off limits” and “untouchable” for now. Even the mistakes will be defended. It’s going to take some monumental screw ups or for the relationship to change before the media starts stirring the pot unfairly again.
1) Allonzo Trier should have been drafted.
2) I’m glad as hell he’s a Knick.
3) Kyrie Irving committed to signing in Boston, and if he does, management should steal Terry Rozier.
I do like Rozier, but he’s at all time high value right now. Boston doesn’t need to get better really at any position, they don’t need immediate picks as they still have some and there’s many young players already to develop. Rozier is solid on the bench and insurance for Irving’s injuries or if he has a sudden change of heart and decides to leave next year.
I think he would be way too expensive because there’s no real reason for Boston to trade him without getting an absurd haul for him. It’s much better to wait and see how the situation develops, specially if he eventually gets angry and asks to leave. He’s also very liable to get overpaid, as he’s a RFA next summer if he doesn’t sign an extension.
Besides, there were reports that Phoenix had him as a trade target and they didn’t go anywhere, so it’s very probable the Celtics either don’t want to trade him at all or were looking for insane packages.
I would never suggest for the Knicks to make a trade with Danny Ainge (or Morey and Ujiri for that matter). His restricted free agency is what I’m talking about. There’s no way Kyrie signs in Boston for less than the max, and Rozier is going to command a bigger deal than Boston can afford. With the way Rozier is trending offensively plus his already established defensive value, I’d pretty comfortably offer him the Tim Hardaway Jr contract.
Is there room for Dotson on this team? Trier overshadowing him, but he is hitting shots. Lots of wings.
I understand, but I think 18 a year for 4 years is still a huge overpay for Rozier.
Yes, it’s nice that he has improved every season he’s been on the league, but he was Mudiay levels of unplayable before this year (his ts% went from .326 to .466, for example) to a decent to good level last year. Yes, he scored a bunch on the playoffs but still with mediocre efficiency, he didn’t get to the line at all (around 2.5 to 3 FTA per 36 even in the playoffs) and he’s not a good defender, plus he’s already 24, turning 25 this season, not old by any means but he’s likely already in his physical prime (so there’s not much upside to be expected athletically).
Assuming he keeps his playoffs performance level, It would be like paying Reggie Jackson 18 million a year, and we’ve all seen how that worked out for the Pistons. Boston wouldn’t match because quite simply they would be insane to do so if Kyrie is staying.
Trier hit some very tough shots so far in preseason. If he keeps it up he’s a player, but it’s far from guaranteed.
So…it will take monumental screw-ups for the press to treat them “unfairly”?
This is precisely what happened to Phil. They gave him great coverage at first, until he was terrible and then they gave him the coverage that you give terrible GMS like Phil, which is bad and fair coverage. If Mills and Perry make some “monumental screw-ups,” then yes, their coverage will get worse, and it will be just as fair as it was with Phil, which was very fair.
Man, if Brandon Ingram takes “the leap,” then that would sure be annoying.
@71 I see Rozier as a Bledsoe level player and a guy who can team up with Ntilikina to terrorize opposing offenses, sorta like a bizarro version of Lillard and McCollum. You’re right though that it would be an overpay unless he becomes significantly better scoring the ball.
Given the management’s ability to find valuable players on the cheap (with valid examples to support that assertion), why pay 18MM for Rozier when they can apparently find someone off the street for the league minimum who can perform about the same?
Or perhaps even better than him.
As an aside, I’m liking how they are using the combination of the last camp roster spot and those Exhibit 10 contracts to build a strong d-league team.
Don’t be surprised if Westchester has yet another strong season.
Agreed. While I have absolutely no idea what they see in Billy Garrett, I’m still glad they’re not neglecting this aspect of team building as has been tradition. Us Knicks fans sure are appreciative of competence!
So I started wondering last night how the FO plans to get down to 15 players. Not counting obvious roster filler like Kadeem Allen, we’ve got 18 guys:
C: Kanter, Robinson, Kornet, Noah (4)
PF: Thomas, Vonleh, Porzingis (3)
SF: Knox, Hezonja, Hicks (3)
SG: Hardaway, Lee, Frank, Trier, Dotson, Baker (6)
PG: Burke, Mudiay (2)
Trier is on a 2-way contract, so he doesn’t count against the roster limit until his 45 days are used up (or until the team offers him a regular nba deal, whichever comes first). Noah is probably going up be stretched, but the two sides seem at an impasse over how much money he gives back, so he may be taking up a roster spot when the season opens. If he’s cut and Trier stays on the 2-way for a bit, we still need to dump one guy.
I’d like it to be Mudiay, since Frank, Ron and maybe even Trier can play PG minutes in this offense. But the FO seems invested in him right now. So who goes? Dotson, because we just have too many SGs? Hicks, because Hezonja makes him redundant (in addition to not being good)? Robinson will probably take most of Kornet’s minutes, but I figure the team wants Kornet around at least til KP returns as a very poor man’s Porzingis.
Predictions? And if Noah is still here on cutdown day, who’s the second guy on the chopping block?
A Courtney Lee trade would be really handy right now, you know?
The media gave Phil a very brief honeymoon, but it didn’t last long. Admittedly he was often his worst enemy. He held the press in contempt because collectively they know less about basketball (and every other subject they cover) than he’s already forgotten from overindulging in recreational activities. 🙂 And because he made it clear that’s what he thought of them, they enjoyed bringing him down. He’s an arrogant grouch. But we’ve had a bunch of people that were way worse than him that never got ripped apart like he did for mixed decisions and results.
The media loves Mills (despite being part of decades of incompetence), Perry, and Fizdale. No one is chomping at the bit praying for the opportunity to knock them down a few notches. As a Knicks fan, I hope there’s never reason to attack them, but they are going to get a VERY LONG leash.
Mudiay has been one of the worst players in the NBA for 4 years in a row. If you need to cut someone that’s the easiest place to start. It’s also too early to stop giving Frank some minutes at PG.
Yes, but who do you think will get cut? Thus far, Fiz and Mills and Perry have shown an irrational attachment to Mudiay.
Hicks is on a 2-way contract so there’s no need to cut anyone presuming Noah is waived which appears to be in the cards. If team uses all of Trier’s allotted time up front, it would probably then (if not sooner) want to convert him to a regular contract which would mean a cut would have to made. One would think in a couple of months if Mudiay is still the same player, he would be cut. If he isn’t cut, we have a lousy front office and a used car salesman for a coach.
If there are no takers for Courtney by trade deadline, Knicks should consider a buyout. Hard to believe any team with cap would want him next summer and, even if one would, it likely would be after all the best free agents have been signed.
I’ve seen nothing but good things out of Dotson and Ron thus far so I hope they make the cut.
I’ll be at the game tonight in great seats, hoping that Mitch is good to go.
I would cut Mudiay, Kornet, Hicks and Frank (jk!)
Oh, right. Hicks is also on a 2-way. I forgot that. So, yeah, if Noah is stretched, we don’t have to cut anyone until it’s trine to convert Trier’s deal. And by then, hopefully the FO has more clarity on all these guards.
Terry Rozier is precisely the kind of player we should never offer a free agent contract to.
He’s also precisely the kind of player we’ve always wasted our money on, going back Shandon Anderson and Howard Eisley.
IIRC the media largely turned on Phil after the Derrick Rose-Courtney Lee-Carmelo Anthony-Kristaps Porzingis-Joakim Noah super team never came to fruition. So in the midst of his third season on the job, and because of terrible basketball results. His buffoonery outside of basketball results certainly didn’t help, but his press would’ve been perfectly fine if the team didn’t, you know, suck ass.
If you have evidence of him receiving overwhelming bad press prior to that point, please present it.
Mets fan I’m assuming?
lol (and also true!)
I pretty much recall every deal he made being criticized.
He took heat for the Chandler deal even though he was hurt, had a down season, asked to be traded, didn’t fit the team, and was accompanied by gun toting Felton.
He took heat for packaging Shumpert (who he predicted might be injury prone) to get rid of a basket case like JR Smith.
Those were rebuild moves.
In deals like that, balance means arguing that the deals weren’t attractive enough (if that’s your opinion), but acknowledging that moving on from players that were causing trouble in the locker room or that wanted out was a sensible approach forward.
When you evaluate whether someone is biased you don’t just look at the accuracy of what someone is saying. You look at both sides of the ledger and see if all perspectives are being reported or one view is dominating.
What are we 20 years into Mills employment?
I’m still waiting for a string of articles on all his failures. Instead we got celebratory articles on Phil being tossed. Mills was being presented as someone that was going to take over and do it the right way.
The first 2 things he did was sign Baker and Hardaway?
We got a couple of “what is he thinking” articles.
Where are the articles trashing those moves now and where it leaves us with regard to the SG position?
Instead we are still getting articles about Phil’s slight overpay to get Lee to NY in a cap flush year and how he we are struggling to move him.
Just spitballing but after watching MR’s proclivity for swatting corner 3 pointers into the 8th row…. maybe with his lack of bulk a relative fast twitch-ness, shouldn’t the Knicks just let him try the bulk of the starting minutes at the 4 and back up Kanter some at the 5? Playing a shot blocker at the 4 next to Kanter helps with Kanter’s deficiencies (a la KP) and allows MR not to have to bang with the bigger post players?
Give Knox the bulk of the 3 minutes and play Frank, Trier, Burke and THJr at the 1/2 and as Caesar once said…. let the dice fly!!! Dotson/Lee/Vonleh/Baker/Kornet fight for the scraps.
Mario/Mudiay/Hicks/Noah/Lance can all go pound sand as far as I am concerned and I am not interested in seeing them waste a single second of floor time that can be allocated to any of the others.
At the very least we should run MitchRob out there with Kornet
The problem with playing Robinson and Kanter together is that neither can score outside of the paint. And then you’d have Knox guarding threes, which won’t go well.
So, yeah, Rob gets a couple of cool blocks and all, but Knox gets a lot of bullfighting practice. Ole!
OTOH, that would be a very cool stealth tank lineup, esp. if you put Mudiay out there with them.
Oh, is that what we’re calling it, now?
VORP 2.3 (4,769 minutes)
WARP (CARMELO) 3.0
Yeah, paying $7M+ per WAR is, uh… a slight overpay.
I was cautiously optimistic about Phil until the Derrick Rose/Joakim Noah deals. At that moment it was clear he did not know what the fuck he was doing. Those were Bargnani-level moves, moves that were obviously going to blow up in his face. Which they very predictably did.
Remember that time Derrick Rose just disappeared from the team, and people were wondering if maybe he was dead or something? And then he was back on the court like the next day? Man, that was wacky.
I watch a pretty good amount of Laker basketball, and I’ll tell you, I will not be surprised if Brandon Ingram does in fact make “the leap.”
He was horrible as a rookie. He was so bad, and looked so awkward, that I was convinced he was going to be a bust in the NBA. It wasn’t just that his stats were bad, his body language was awful. His reaction times were slow, he moved like a baby giraffe and he rarely made a good play. He bricked everything, free throws, three pointers, midrange jumpers… He was a mess.
He was quietly one of the most improved players in the league as a second-year player, raised his 3PT percentage from .294 to .390, and visibly looked very different. He was still hesitant at times, but the awkward unbalanced gait was gone. He was an impact defender last year, even though his steal and block numbers were pedestrian. The Lakers were a pretty solid defensive team, 12th overall and 10th in defensive eFG%, and he was a big part of that.
He can play, and I expect him to have a big year.
Phil’s first major move was to cripple the franchise with a mega max contract/ NTC— a move he should have been derided over by the media, but largely wasn’t. Your anti-mediaism is so far removed from reality on this it’s ridiculous.
Who care that Robinson can’t shoot 3’s? There will be plenty of shots for Knox, THJr, Trier and Burke when teams have to concentrate on keeping Robinson and Kanter from causing havoc on the offensive boards.
And if you like the 4 factors…. incredible eFG, O and D rebounding means something……Kanter has to play big minutes on this roster so you might as well play him with someone that partially masks his flaws, is a terrific natural shot blocker, lob catcher and rebounder.
It’s not just the threes though– both Kanter and Robinson have no offensive game to speak of if they’re not right near the basket. So you’re kind of playing 4 on 5 if you have two guys out there who are no threat to make even a ten-foot jumper. I think Robinson’s jumper has some potential, the form on it does not look terrible. But right now he really needs to be near the basket to be able to score.
Bingo. Seems like they’d be getting in each other’s way a lot down low.
But hey, if you could complement them with three very good shooters to keep teams from sagging back, it might be interesting.
Strat is confusing the Knickerblogger reaction to Phil, which soured when he acquired Arron Afflalo and Derrick Williams instead of an unprotected Sacramento pick, with the media’s reaction which, again, didn’t sour until it was so blatantly obvious the poor old man was lost.
Here is the cover of the Daily News from after Phil acquired Derrick fucking Rose. Here is the post. Unless you have some evidence that the media somehow unfairly turned on Phil Jackson (if anything they were way too late, we noticed he was a dullard far earlier), stop making shit up and just accept that he was a laughably shitty executive.
Do we have three shooters who would qualify, though?
Strat’s obsession isn’t that Phil was good. It’s that the media can’t be trusted; therefore whatever they say, the opposite must be true. (But in this case, he’s accidentally supporting the mainstream media’s actions because he forgot how it actually treated Phil:)
Lee and…. er….um…
Burke is good from mid-range, and maybe some combination of Frank, Trier, and/or Knox might someday be consistent outsider shooters. Timmy? Um, no.
Hardaway Jr. seems like the most replaceable type of player – average shooter, gets really hot on occasion, gets to the basket on occasion, goes totally cold on occasion, average defender.
And he wouldn’t be a bad player to have on the team….if we weren’t paying him 18 million fucking dollars a year.
I like the idea on pairing up MitchRob with Kornet so he gets some defensive experience on the perimeter. If nothing else knowing what that role is could help him playing help defense. Down the road, if he doesn’t bulk up, could make for some interesting lineups with KP too.