Knicks Morning News (2018.06.14)

Couple thoughts from yesterday’s thread:

1) I think there is absolutely zero chance that KP has any significant anemia that the Knicks haven’t found/addressed yet. I mean, the kid had a history of it, and it’s not like it’s hard to diagnose. Players get blood draws as part of the standard physical, and if there were a problem, it would be addressed.

2) I think the “name a player 7’3″+ that hasn’t been constantly injured” is a real concern. If you look at B-R, there have only been 52 players in NBA history 7’2″+, and of those, only 12 played 10+ seasons. Of those, only 3 played 10 more more seasons of 2000+ minutes (which is really not that many minutes) –> Kareem, Mutombo, and Artis Gilmore. I don’t know that there is a way to predict whether KP will be in that group, or whether nutrition / kinesiology has gotten to the point where we can actually alter that (disclaimer that some of those 52 players only made the NBA because they were 7’2″+ and not because they were actually good players — ie. you would never expect them to last 10 seasons).

3) Re: the reason for KP’s drop-off in mid-season. One possible line of demarcation is when he left the game on 12/14/17 after feeling something “pop” in his left knee. He ended up missing 2 games after that, then came back and shot 0-11 his first game back. Pre-12/14 he had a TS of 57.2 and averaged 1.21 PPP. For the month after that he had a TS of 46.9 and a PPP of 0.99. Yes Jowles, it’s arbitrary for me to a choose a month after that, but the idea is that he left a game with a leg injury and basically sucked for some period of time after that. In retrospect he may very well have had a structural problem in that knee –> it was the same knee that had the ACL tear in February. Somehow the Knicks never got an MRI despite the “pop” sensation (initial report was that he did have one but on 12/18 reporting said no MRI was done). Could he have sustained a partial tear in Dec?

The story about Fiz taking Frank, Mudiay and Dotson to Boston for a playoff game is pretty cool, actually. Can’t see Rambis doing that

Carter looking great wouldn’t give us leverage in contract negotiations. Other teams telling Janis that they want KP is all that matters. It’s about KP’s options, not the Knicks’.

Yeah, I’ve always assumed it was the same knee, and that the earlier “buckling” was an indicator of the injury to come. I also assumed the Knicks got an MRI and checked it out thoroughly, and that the only reason he kept playing is that they thought there was nothing to do about it except hope for the best. But, Knicks.

You guys are convincing me we should consider moving on from KP. if he is going to spend half his career injured on a max contract let’s try to move up in the draft and get some assets. Carter and a wing in the lottery plus a mid first plus our second and I think we have a better future moving forward.
Keeping KP Is too risky and half of you don’t think he’s a max player to begin with. Surely someone will give us a lottery pick for him and a late first. As much as we love him he is too tall and the probability he has a career ending injury is too great.

Re: the reason for KP’s drop-off in mid-season. One possible line of demarcation is when he left the game on 12/14/17 after feeling something “pop” in his left knee. He ended up missing 2 games after that, then came back and shot 0-11 his first game back. Pre-12/14 he had a TS of 57.2 and averaged 1.21 PPP. For the month after that he had a TS of 46.9 and a PPP of 0.99. Yes Jowles, it’s arbitrary for me to a choose a month after that, but the idea is that he left a game with a leg injury and basically sucked for some period of time after that.

That’s not arbitrary. This is an explanation I accept. I do not accept “I remember him being double-teamed a lot.”

You guys are convincing me we should consider moving on from KP.

Key word: consider. I am as vocal as any of his critics, but I see why people want to assign this ultra-high ceiling to him. I just don’t want the consensus to be that you automatically give him the max for being super tall and having a good-looking shooting form.

maybe he wanted Mudiay to see what good decision making looks like.

@13

Well, I hope he closed his eyes every time Rozier, Smart or Morris chucked a terrible shot then.

Mpjr welcome to ghe knicks, team with the most talented injury prone young players in history

A kid with ‘great potential’ but no real body of work with a fucked up back who can’t stay healthy enough to work out for teams-welcome to the Knicks Michael Porter Jr!

Except it’s worked out pretty well for the Sixers. I guess Simmons had shown more, but the strategy of drafting supertalented but injured players was the core of The Process.

No way divac passes on doncic for porter! Zero

Didn’t Porter Jr. initially go down with a hip injury right before his back surgery? Talk about high risk, high reward.

The only way either Young or Carter drop to the Knicks is if someone like Sexton or Bridges move up in the draft and in all the latest mock drafts I don’t see that happening. Early on I saw some mocks with Bridges getting picked before 9th but lately I don’t see much talk of that. Like I mentioned a couple of days ago it seems like there is now a clear consensus on who the Top 8 players in this draft are and of course the Knicks pick 9th.

Trading KP now might eventually look like a smart move given his injury history, but imo even if it turns out that way, that tells you nothing about the probabilities of him having an injury riddled career vs. him never developing into anything special vs. him becoming a 2 way dynamo.

The people arguing to trade him now were probably the same people that wanted Phil fired for simply taking phone calls and seeing what was available for him. That was before the ACL and when Phil was smart enough to wonder if a 7′ 3″ with his frame could stay healthy.

I would not trade KP even now unless the offer was so good I couldn’t refuse it. Our attitude on this should be similar to Phil’s. You can call, I will listen, but I’ll probably hang up.

Some reports that MPJ had some very severe back spasms, too. It’ll be interesting to see if he feels good enough soon to go ahead and have his showcase. If not, surely he’ll fall on draft night.

Latest ESPN mock draft has nobody in the Top 8 dropping to the Knicks so they have them now drafting Kevin Knox which is first time I’ve seen him linked to the Knicks. Most mocks that don’t have any of the Top 8 dropping to the Knicks have them taking Sexton. Not sure what to make of Knox.

Give ATL 9, 36, top 3 protected 2020 1st, Noah and max cash allowed for 3rd overall.

We would have to give 9 and 36 (at least) just for them to take Noah for nothing, so we’d be asking them to give the 2018 #3 pick for a pick 2 years later that doesn’t have a chance to be as good as the one they’re giving up. Don’t think they will go for that.

I really don’t like Knox. Of all the possible people we could take he is the worst case in my opinion. I really don’t like players with low block and steal numbers, especially when their rebound numbers are also not great. I really question his athleticism. He is slow footed. He screams bust to me.

We should just take Mikal Bridges, solidify the defense, and call it a day. We’ll potentially have a top defender at guard, wing, and PF/C. Those 3 have a chance to become the core of an elite defensive team. From there, we’ll 2 need high levels scorers to go along with KP. But for now, we’ll have Hardaway and Kanter as the #2 and #3 option or when Burke is on the court, he can score. The bench will also be OK even though it’s not clear who will be returning. That’s not a bad start to the rebuild. I guess this is all too easy. We are the Knicks and have to complicate things.

Still a Carter Jr. guy. Hope he gets to us too. The idea of deploying three plus defensive players in Frankie Smokes, Mikal Bridges, and Porzingis sounds ok too. It would be fun to see some great defense in the Garden.

Going to be a super interesting draft this year.

“Knox with the knack for the Knicks.” I can hear Clyde now.

It wasn’t Melo Phil was trying to attach to Porzingis, it was Noah. Mase is still correct that Phil was trying to use KP as sweetener to rectify a dumbass decision of his, he just confused his Phil Jackson Dumbass Decisions. Understandable mistake, they were quite numerous.

The top 8 seems very likely to be Ayton, Doncic, JJJ, Bagley, Bamba, Young, MPJ, and Carter (not necessarily in that order but I tried to approximate the order for shits and giggles). In that case, I say we should just take Mikal Bridges and call it a day. He’s not the most exciting prospect in the world but I do think there is some untapped into upside (Villanova’s system isn’t exactly conducive to an individual player truly showing out) and, for whatever it’s worth, he fills a pretty clear need.

I’d take any of the top-8 if they fell without thinking twice except MPJ, who I kind of want to avoid at all costs to be honest.

We should just take Mikal Bridges, solidify the defense, and call it a day.

I’m all for that. I would take a single in this year’s draft, and hope we can hit the home run next year with a top three pick.

This would be a good progression:

Summer 2018: Add Bridges, re-sign O’Quinn to team-friendly extension, do nothing stupid like stretching Noah or extending Kanter

2018-19 season: tank hard, let Porzingis get healthy, develop Frank, Bridges, Dotson

Summer 2019: Pray you get lucky and hit a home run in the lottery, do nothing stupid like re-sign Kanter, stretch Noah or give a supermax to Porzingis

2019-20 season: play it out with your core players and the stud you hopefully just drafted. That’s probably a playoff team.

Summer 2020: Now Noah, Lee, Lance are all off the books. If you’ve done nothing stupid, you’ve got 4 good young players you drafted (KP, Frank, Mikal, 2019’s stud), you’ve got O’Quinn on a team-friendly deal, you’ve got Hardaway in the last year of his contract, you’ve got a first round pick in the teens, and you have $30-40 in cap space to sign a max player. Heck, LeBron might be coming off his best year in 2020, maybe we can realistically sign him then 😉

In that context, Mikal Bridges is perfect, because he’s probably best as the 4th or 5th best player on a really good team.

You can also count me in on Mikal if the top 8 are gone. I’d also be fine with Miles, but Mikal’s D is more attractive, despite his age.

I’d still like to move at least one of TH2/Lee if not both. I really hope that’s possible.

Mikal Bridges plays great team defense but he’s not gonna stop anybody from lighting him up in isolation situations because he has average at best lateral quickness. A guy like Frank Ntilikina can legitimately use his athleticism and length to bother elite ball handlers and Kristaps Porzingis is a legitimate rim protector. On the wing, Bridges isn’t really a stopper as much as he’s a playmaker, and I think that’s under represented in a lot of scouting reports.

I feel like we’re going to draft him and I’m going to be to Mikal Bridges what Z Man is to Frank Ntilikina. I just cannot find any reason to like his game when I watch him play.

For me if no one in the top 8 fall then I think Smith is the pick. After that it’s probably Miles but I’m pretty ambivalent between him and Mikal.

It wasn’t Melo Phil was trying to attach to Porzingis, it was Noah. Mase is still correct that Phil was trying to use KP as sweetener to rectify a dumbass decision of his, he just confused his Phil Jackson Dumbass Decisions. Understandable mistake, they were quite numerous.

So every article that said he was asking for too much (including a quote from Ainge, his own comments and the fact that no deal was actually made) means nothing, but some unverified idea that he would give away KP just to get rid of Noah is true. OK. That sounds right.

We have people here ready to trade KP now for less than he’s worth, but when Phil was only taking calls at the top of his value he was an idiot. lmao

He shouldn’t be traded then or now unless the deal is way too good to pass up.

Let’s get back to the draft.

Yeah I mean Mikal has a better career steal % than Trae Young AND a better block % than Bagley. I think at least some of that will translate over.

Memphis gauging interest in a package including #4 and Parsons. Sign me up. Both Parsons and. Noah’s contracts would end in 2020.

#4 + Parsons for #9, Lee, Thomas Mudiay maybe?

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2018-nba-draft-trade-rumors-grizzlies-testing-market-for-chandler-parsons-no-4-pick/

Maybe trade #4 for the Clipper’s pick if no Doncic?

I don’t think Phil even really tried to package Noah with KP. We know of one fairly concrete offer Phil made for KP. He offered him to Phoenix for Booker and the #4 pick. I think that would have been a terrible trade, but at least it gives us an idea of what Phil was thinking.

You really think josh Jackson and devin booker for kp would’ve been a bad trade?

They’re not doing that tradeup doesn’t matter, they like thjr for some reason.
Three hours dinner with Lonnie walker, tell me they want him

I would agree with you, I always thought Kp was too tall hope I’m wrong.

The brass holes seem to love two guards, watch Lonnie walker at9

Porzingis for the #4, two future 2nds and Parsons.

So every article that said he was asking for too much (including a quote from Ainge, his own comments and the fact that no deal was actually made) means nothing, but some unverified idea that he would give away KP just to get rid of Noah is true. OK. That sounds right.

Lol. Lolol.

I know, I know. Ian Begley and Adrian Wojnarowski were part of the Fake News Deep State Media that conspired to take down the greatest executive in sports. Had they left him alone Kurt Rambis would be well on his way to coaching Derrick Rose, Arron Afflalo, Carmelo Anthony, Derrick Williams, and Joakim Noah to a championship. It’s a shame no one could keep up with Phil Jackson’s galaxy brain!

@70

Well the article speculated that they just want a young player back in return, i don’t think it was based on a source per se. I think any rational gm would demand at least a young player and one more asset for the #4 besides the pick swap. It’s an open question whether or not Memphis’ FO is rational, so there’s maybe hope for a THJr + Mudiay trade for Parsons ans the #4. But the most likely scenario acceptable to all sides is THJr + Mudiay + the #9 for Parsons and the #4. Which you absolutely do without blinking even if Doncic isn’t there. If they want the 36 pick as well, that makes me think the trade is only worth it if Carter Doncic or maybe Young is available. But the 2nd trade is an instant yes and the 3rd you strongly consider. The first is an historically bad trade but not unprecedented (Divac for Kobe anyone?)

If Noah was being included, it would quite obviously lessen the return from the team receiving him. I don’t see how that’s disputable. So Phil Jackson was shopping Porzingis, and telling teams they could get a better deal by taking Noah. You can play whatever semantic games you want, but that’s called using Porzingis as a sweetener to dump Noah.

@75

I disagree.

Some of the talks with Boston involved 2 lottery picks and good young players.

There might have been scenarios discussed where Noah would be included (which would great for NY). If you could get rid him as part of a deal because someone was that hot for KP, you do it. He wasn’t lowering the asking price to get rid of Noah. He still wanted a ton.

One such possibility was Kyrie to NY. The Cavs wanted Porzingis. So it would have been Kyrie and some pick (s) and whatever else for KP and Noah.

The bottom line is that Phil wanted a ton, got some pretty decent offers, turned them all down and was called an idiot and fired for even thinking about it. Now people practically want to give Porzingis away. The point I am making is that people are all over the map for no good reason. There is never anything wrong with listening to offers (though it would be better if there were no leaks), but in all likelihood people are overreacting now and want way too little back. It would be insane to trade him right now while he’s hurt when it’s more likely he’s going to come back better than worse.

One thing is for sure, KP ain’t as promising a young player as Gleyber Torres.

Last try. He wanted a potential star player and a high lottery pick as a minimum (probably more based on the Boston scenario and comments from executives).

Let me try to explain it this way.

I’ll give you an ounce of gold if you give me $1600 back (gold is only worth $1300 an ounce now).

I’ll give you an once of gold and a pile of shit if you give me $1600 back.

In either case I am robbing you, but in the latter case I’m getting rid of a pile of shit on top of the robbery . He wasn’t saying I’ll give you an ounce of gold and a pile of shit and you only have to give me $1000 back so I can get rid of this pile of shit. He still wanted back a star player and high lottery pick at a minimum. That’s why nothing got done. He was asking for way too much.

Let’s break this down;
“The bottom line is that Phil wanted a ton, got some pretty decent offers, turned them all down and was called an idiot and fired for even thinking about it.“

What was offered? Nada. It was Phil making the offers.

Phil’s was not fired fir entertaining the thought of trading kp he was fired for using him as a sweetener.

Everyone knows that!

.

I wish I could somehow be privy to any discussions that might be going on between Memphis and the Knicks. If somehow Memphis is desperate to unload Parsons, I’d be pestering them with calls, and trying to pry that pick from them while still keeping the #9 pick and not dealing away KP or Frank. I seriously doubt that they are THAT desperate, but who knows?

Supposedly they just want a young established player back. Is that all? Does THJ fit that criteria? I seriously doubt it. Could they be that dumb?

A dream trade would be Parsons and the #4 pick for THJ, Mudiay (to balance salaries…he’s just an expiring here), and…something else….surely they’d want more. I’d gladly throw in the Chicago 2nd rounder. Or, to avoid giving up the #9, I’d be willing to give next year’s Knicks first rounder with like top 5 or 6 protection, bumping to 2020 with only top 3 protection. I’d do that to get another young player in right now…so you could hopefully build with a core of KP, Frank, Doncic and BPA at the #9.

Ah, not gonna happen…

I have a theory about why Phil was so publicly shopping KP. I think he was very put off about KP skipping the exit interview, so much so that the public shopping was meant to worry him and his brother, teach them a lesson, etc.

There’s no evidence for it, so it’s pure speculation… But that would jibe with his mind games persona. It is interesting that it happened post-exit meeting. Phil had a huge ego, so it wouldn’t be surprising if KP skipping out made him want to set the record straight where the power was.

Of course, Phil was wrong….!

steroids

Signing an obviously decrepit declining veteran to a terrible contract then using your best asset to try to dump the terrible contract one year later: KNICKSIEST!

Seriously though, Phil really sucked, like for realz