Knicks Morning News (2017.08.07)

  • [NYPost] Charles Oakley sounds OK with missing Knicks home games
    (Sunday, August 06, 2017 1:41:43 PM)

    Well, it certainly doesn’t sound like Charles Oakley is crushed by his one-year ban from Madison Square Garden. “I want to thank all my fans around the world. The case is over now that was the hard part. The easy part is stayin away from the Garden OAK,” the former Knicks All-Star power forward

  • 57 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.08.07)”

    I find the “Strange 3 Questions” headlines that’s been popping up disgusting (and quite frankly rather lazy) article writing. When you actually read the questions, they make sense to ask someone in evaluating their expertise:

    1. Steve Nash’s athleticism,
    2. the proper footwork leading into a jumper,
    3. and five characteristics of an athlete.

    In my opinion, PJax asked questions that would’ve been difficult to BS through. That’s actually rather smart cutting-edge HR interviewing.

    Yeah, they seem like perfectly reasonable questions to ask a team trainer. The headlines are just click bait.

    Craig Robinson in the FO? I wonder what role he’s going to fill. He’s another basket ball lifer added to the team, but his addition feels like it’s just a tad too much. I can just imagine him being peppered with questions about his brother in law, and a few “petty” journalists reaching for controversial info and putting out articles about Obeezy and the alleged controversial info. Basketball-wise, I don’t know if it’s a good hire or not because I’m not too familiar with his credentials- but it seems solid on the surface depending on what his role will be. I do appreciate the fact that, overpays aside, all additions to the team this offseason has been reasonable. Even the overpays aren’t horrible moves and it’s been quite some time since we’ve seen that with the Knicks. There may be hope yet for our dutch settlers

    Melo to the Pels? Just another dead end. We’re not taking back Asik.

    We should consider taking back Asik. His contract only lasts two more years, with a $3m guarantee in 2019-20. His salary this year is irrelevant, and we probably shouldn’t be making big free agent splashes next summer anyway, so all that matters is that last $3m.

    We should offer Melo for Asik, Solomon Hill, and New Orleans’ unprotected picks in 2018 and 2020. We’d get two draft picks from a poorly run franchise in exchange for taking on Asik’s dead money and three more years of Hill. The Pelicans get out from under those bad contracts and get to make a playoff push while they convince Boogie to re-sign.

    (Personally, I think Melo-Boogie-Brow would be a terrible combination that could win 35 games. But the Pelicans’ front office probably thinks it would work.)

    Melo probably wouldn’t accept a trade to New Orleans, but it’s worth inquiring.

    At lunch I was listening to Stephen A. and I’ll cut to the chase. He said that “Melo is done with NY and might not show up to camp”.

    That sounds like a great way for Dolan to get out of paying him.

    Melo not showing up to camp would be the best outcome for us, outside of trading him now for future assets.

    I hope he sits out the whole year, we win 25 games with a hard-working but raw team, and he opts out after the season.


    I’m 100% on this, Pelicans first rounders will be an amazing asset. Taking Adik is fine and Hill is not a useless player even though he’s overpaid as hell.

    And well, if Melo won’t show up for camp and won’t waive his NTC, just bench him, whatever. He has to.fulfill his contract too.

    over and under on how many more weeks before the knicks do something totally bizarre…

    my sensibilities are outraged by the fact that we didn’t give dotson a player option on the third year of the deal…

    what the heck is going on with that FO now…

    wow, knicks are not much fun when they’re not playing (hmmm, sometimes too when they are playing) and doing weird shit…

    may as well be the orlando knicks…

    E’Twaun Moore is a decent shooter, he shot 45% on 3s with Chicago two years ago and even last year had a .537 ts%. He’s not good but at 8 million per year he can backup both guard positions and provide something at least… Asik’s contract is a complete albatross but his last year has only 3 mil guaranteed, so its really a 2-year deal, and Ajinca is also bad but a 2-year 10 million deal is not very relevant.

    I’d rather get this deal with Pelicans picks than the Turner / Leonard or Ryan Anderson, specially because getting first rounders from such a dysfunctional franchise is always a good deal.

    Nice hire by the FO, good PR for the team. Man, how nice is is to have this little respite away from the circus. KP is back in the fold, happy, and looking good in Africa. The team has publicly stated that Melo is an afterthought. Sessions and Dotson (past behavior aside) are signings we all can agree on. Perry is a decent low-key FO hire, as is Craig Robinson. It’s weird, how long can this last?

    Melo will never agree to a trade to New Orleans.

    No trade clause – the Phil Jackson gift that keeps on giving.

    going to NOLA is the antithesis of small ball basketball trend

    Stephen A Smith is making stuff now, why would Melo not show up… he’s not unprofessional and smart enough to get NTC

    We can only hope that as training camp gets closer, Melo will be so depressed at the thought of returning to the Knicks that he expands his list of cities. New Orleans could be on that list. Cool city, plus two All-Stars already in the fold. I could see it.

    Plus the Pelicans are so shortsighted that I could see them promising him some ridiculous extension, which will get his attention.

    I think New Orleans has to be pretty much at the very bottom of the list of places Melo would go to, so it would only be because of basketball related reasons. I think they have a pretty bad team, but considering the media’s “surprise” that they didn’t improve at all adding Cousins you can see how well regarded both he and Davis are around the league.

    I don’t blame if he refuses to go there, as it seems like the worst possible situation (shaky – potentially terrible basketball situation on one of the least attractive markets in the league), so I’d say it’s about as likely as him getting convinced by McCollum and Lillard to join the Blazers. I just sorta hope he considers it because it would be a much nicer trade for us.

    I see no reason for optimism based on today’s hire. He’s a friend of Mills (which could easily mean he’s just as incompetent) and a brother in law of Obama (which could easily mean it’s a different form of political hire).

    I’d don’t get the optimism over the new front office.

    The first few deals were terrible because they undid some of the good Phil actually accomplished with cap space and since then basically all we’ve done is pick up Sessions. While I have no problem with a cheap 1 year deal for Sessions, he was awful last year and finished off with an injury. Giving him anything other than this deal would have been somewhere between stupid and a debacle.

    A dead man would have been smart enough to sign Dotson and he comes from Phil anyway.

    So Griffin refused our Front Office job because he wanted control and to bring in his own people; but the actual hire, Scott Perry, is now actually bringing in his own team. Sounds like Perry may be better at negotiating than Griffin.

    Stratomatc, I think people here are evaluating our front office after Phil in two phases, before Perry and after hiring him. Those who see it as better now are mostly referring to after Perry behavior. It’s like evaluating a player after he played half a summer league game; you’re basically reading tea leaves. But it’s August and theres not much other basketball stuff to discuss.

    “He comes from Phil”
    of Phil
    de Phil
    Frank de Phil
    KP de Phil
    Willy de Phil
    Baker de Phil
    Dotson de Phil
    NTC de Phil


    If you’re taking all basketball factors out of the equation, I have to think New Orleans isn’t at the very bottom of the destination list. Minnesota, Milwaukee, OKC, Sacramento, Memphis, Cleveland, Indiana, and Utah would probably all be worse to Melo. Portland, Detroit, and Charlotte would be close.

    At least New Orleans has good food, good culture, good nightlife, and is warm during the winter.

    The dumbest thing Melo could do in this situation is to not attend Knicks camp. He would totally lose the media battle as a player violating his contract and give the Knicks an edge PR wise. It would also signal to management that he’s desperate to leave ASAP and closer to cracking on his demands. If Melo were smart he’d say all of the right things about obligating his contract while politely restating his intention to play only for Houston.

    I’d don’t get the optimism over the new front office.

    i think i’ve found the problem:
    ‘stratomatic is despondent’

    hey anyone else notice kp ‘s new and improved guns…not sure what his weight is now; but, he is definitely looking a bit buffer these days…


    Yeah, you’re right. Not american so all I hear is about it is it’s a tourist destination and pretty much bad outside of it.

    People are mostly optimistic because this front office isn’t making franchise crippling moves (yet). It tells a lot about being a Knick fan, but them again, hate the moves all you want, they haven’t destroyed what’s promising about this franchise and have shown constraint, which we pretty much haven’t seen from a Knicks front office since forever. I’ll admit I’m a pretty big pessimist about pretty much everything Knicks related, but no question this time there is actually something concrete to be excited about.

    I agree with the following…

    1) Stephen A. is making shit up.

    2) There are distinct eras with this FO. BP and AP (before and after Perry). Mills did stupid stuff (like THJr and Baker deals). Perry snuffed out the imminent (by 5pm tonight!!!) Melo trade. I am in the let’s-give-Perry-chance camp.

    3) The best move for the Knicks is Carmelo Anthony sits out training camp.

    4) Carmelo Anthony is too business savvy to sit out training camp.

    5) He’s not going to New Orleans. Next week we’ll be reading about a trade to the Nets.

    I don’t like Melo on the team because I’ve seen this movie before and I’m tired of it. Melo makes shots in the 1st quarter and misses them in the 4th quarter. We lose the game. Repeat 50 times. As long as he’s here he’ll be the alpha dog and will hold others back from assuming that role or more importantly, playing a team game predicated on open shots a la ssol Suns or GSW.

    That being said, there’s worse fates than holding on to him. Clearly very much worse ones. I’m not for paying for him to leave. The cheapest way out is probably to keep him. Hoping that he stays and plays a complimentary role is probably foolish. Hoping he leads us to the playoffs equally so. But our main thrust should be developing our young players, getting good players through the draft and managing our cap. Keeping him is probably the most optimal way to do these things considering our past choices.

    My advice is to pay no attention to Steven A Smith. He’s a moron.

    If Melo wants a trade he can wave the NTC. I think he sees this as a similar thing to 2011 but neither team is going to do what DEN and NYK did. DEN was hell bent do deal him and NYK was hell bent to acquire him. He could talk about his one destination and still had leverage. Now he’s not the same player. HOU is certainly too smart to part with major assets and NYK has hopefully learned from their mistakes. DEN had a couple of suckers at the end of the line with us and NJN and could be assured of a good haul. It was clearly advantageous to move him. Now, for NYK not so much. The hiring of Michelle Obama’s brother is further proof that we won’t be stupid. He’s smart. Good hire, Scotty. Hang tough.

    Melo isn’t leaving unless LeBron gets on the phone and gets:

    A) Melo to waive his NTC
    B) James Jones and the Phoenix Suns to include Eric Bledsoe in a 3 team trade.

    I have no problem with Mills hiring a friend. It’s a pretty common practice. Clearly this guy has credentials. Until he makes a bad business decision or ets caught up in a scandal, he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

    What is the rule on stashing veterans overseas like teams do with a draftee? I feel we should explore that as an option while we sort something out ha ha. Europe might be nice. Hell, he can come to Australia. Our season is played over summer, so not only will he likely be the best player in the league, the weather will be fantastic. He can enjoy a second summer and once the deal goes through he can return to the NBA. Easy.

    The legit best role for Melo on this team would be 6th man. Go with Sessions-Lee-Hardaway-KP-Willy as the starting five. Melo can do his heroball thing off the bench as the 6th man where it actually makes a little bit of sense. His ego might not like that but tough titties. He played 34.3 MPG last year, that’s too much. Cut him down to like 28 MPG.

    That starting five, with Melo, KOQ, Lance, Ntilikina, and Noah as the main bench pieces, wouldn’t be terrible. Mix in Scrappy Doo and Dotson to taste. That could be a somewhat fun team to watch. If some of the young guys develop that team might be able to make it to .500. We’re not going to be bad enough to do a true tank job and snag one of the elite lotto guys in next year’s draft anyway.

    The dumbest/Knicksiest thing to do would be to start both Melo and Hardaway, then have no shot creators on the second unit.

    I’m really not sure about Sessions as a starter. I think he was hired with the thought that he could start if he has to, but it’s likely he’s this year’s version of Vujacic, that is, a veteran PG who can play the sort of style the coach likes and is a good team player. It’s more likely Baker starts; after all, the Knicks apparently value him three times as much as Sessions. I know it’s unlikely Ntilikina starts, but if he’s any good, I think he probably starts out the season as the first PG off the bench. Of course, I have been wrong in my predictions many times before, so take these predictions with a grain of salt.

    If Baker starts and is the team’s PG for 2,000+ minutes then we probably will indeed suck. That guy is not even a competent NBA player, let alone a starting point guard.

    (goes to YouTube to watch Marvin Bagley videos)

    Trevon Duval and Rui Hachimura are my guys. And Allonzo Trier, too.

    If Baker starts and is the team’s PG for 2,000+ minutes then we probably will indeed suck. That guy is not even a competent NBA player, let alone a starting point guard.

    You will surely grapple with the bitter taste of these words when they are served back to you in a few months.

    You will surely grapple with the bitter taste of these words when they are served back to you in a few months.

    Reub used to say the same thing to me a lot.

    As is often the case, I would be thrilled to be wrong. Believe it or not, I’d love it if a guy with sub-replacement level numbers and who was not good enough to play point guard in the Midwestern Valley Conference turns into a good NBA starting point guard. That shit would be cray!

    I did a comparison of Sessions, Baker and Vujacic for how they played last season. Sessions seems slightly better in stats than the other two; but honestly, there isn’t any smoking gun pointing to him. He was better at three pointers than the other two, and had more assists. His WS was better, but his team won more games than the Knicks did, which helps that stat. Their defensive ratings were all lousy, which surprised me. By stats they are all at most backup point guards. It could be a real horse race for minutes. If Ron improves his shooting, he probably will win the race, but not by being outstanding.

    All I ask of Ron is to play like a $5 million player. That shouldn’t be too hard.

    I have to agree with JK. If Ron Baker is the starting point guard for a majority of the season, the Knicks will suck. Baker looked ok at times last year as a decent guy off the bench who provides effort on defense and hustle on both ends. If they ranked teams by starting point guards, I’d have to believe the Knicks with Baker would be bottom 3 in the league.

    The thing is, if Ron Ron plays like a 5 million player and plays 2000+ minutes, this team will suck. A 5 million value player could start on a winning team like Chalmers on the Heat, but the Knicks are a bit far away from that.

    I’m hoping for Doncic to be unable to drive by a couple of really good veteran defenders in Spain this year so scouts will pick him apart and he’ll drop to the Knicks at around the 4-6 spot.

    Asking Ron to be the starting PG is setting him up to fail. Say what you want about Ramon Sessions, the guy has played 15,000 minutes as an NBA point guard and has acquitted himself well. Last season was an injury-plagued, off year for him, and he still managed a .495 TS%, 24.2 AST% and 12.7 TOV%. Those are not good numbers, but look how much Ron would have to improve just to match that: Ron had a .456 TS%, 17.3 AST% and 19.2 TOV% as a rookie. He’d have to tack on 50 points of TS%, increase his AST% by almost 50% and cut his turnovers almost in half to match Sessions’ crummy numbers from last year.

    As much as I bag on Scrappy Doo, I could see him succeeding as a combo guard, a SG off the bench who can act as the third PG in a pinch. Asking him to START at PG and play 2,000 minutes is insanity. He’d be the worst starting PG in the NBA by a mile.


    winning more games doesn’t help your winshares but i think your larger point is correct

    I thought win shares divided the teams wins among the players on the team. But if not, my bad.

    Basically, it seems to me that the Knick’s management is gambling on Baker improving a lot, and consoling themselves with the idea that if he doesn’t, we could get a good draft pick. It’s not the worst strategy in the world, and it’s better than giving away the farm for Irving.

    Iman Shumpert named his daughter Iman Shumpert?

    That’s weird. But not that weird.


    you’re reversing it:

    long story short is that win shares are calculated individually off the box score, and then are added together to determine a team’s wins; the calculation doesn’t start with a total number of wins that are then divvied up.

    So the sum of all the WS on a team doesn’t necessarily add up to the teams wins, but it is expected to?

    So the sum of all the WS on a team doesn’t necessarily add up to the teams wins, but it is expected to?

    I believe it’s expected wins. Like a team made up of players A-L, playing X minutes should be worth Y wins. They might only win Z wins, though, due to any number of reasons (mostly luck).


    Yup, the average absolute error is about 2.74 win difference btwn WS and actual win total, and root mean square error is about 3.4

    It’s basically expected to add up to within 3 wins of the actual win total. Idk if it’s “expected” or not in the way pythag is “expected” but it’s fairly on the money, so you could probably reasonably project win total expectations off WS total

    I looked up the formula, and it’s quite confusing to me. But it seems that the number of points scored for and against the team go into it, or maybe it’s the number of points scored by the team compared to league average after adjusting for pace. Either one should correlate well with wins, which agrees with the comments here. So it seems to me that WS doesn’t use the number of wins per se, but it uses adjusted scoring, which correlates with wins, as a kind of proxy. So the intrinsic assumption is that if you do well as a team it must be because of the individual attributes of each player and not because of any team work or coaching effect. I think this can overvalue role players on winning teams. Those role players will do well because of who is around them. JR Smith is a case in point. He has better stats on the Cavaliers than on the Knicks, but I don’t think that really reflects him being much of a different player. But in the case of Sessions versus Baker, I am not sure the difference in winning and team play between the Hornets and the Knicks last season is big enough to matter much to the comparison.

    Stratomatc, I think people here are evaluating our front office after Phil in two phases, before Perry and after hiring him. Those who see it as better now are mostly referring to after Perry behavior. It’s like evaluating a player after he played half a summer league game; you’re basically reading tea leaves. But it’s August and theres not much other basketball stuff to discuss.

    I get that, but Perry hasn’t done a darn thing other sign a veteran PG coming off a horrible year and injury to a contract that a 6th grader would have been smart to achieve. The rest of just press coverage. People within the organization (Mills) and people that just don’t like Phil because of his arrogance and other personality quirks wanted him out and gave him non stop bad coverage trying to force the issue. They aren’t that to the new regime because they helped put him there.

    I have no problem with Mills hiring a friend. It’s a pretty common practice.

    I have no problem with managers hiring friends either. You want to surround yourself with like minded and loyal people so you can accomplish your goals. However, that is a problem when we are talking about a known incompetent like Mills.

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