Knicks Morning News (2017.01.30)

  • [NYTimes] Why Not EuroKnicks? For Struggling Team, Hope From Abroad
    (Monday, January 30, 2017 5:01:21 AM)

    The Knicks were slower than most in seeking international talent, but the arrival of Mindaugas Kuzminskas and others has offered a chance at a new identity.

  • [NYTimes] Hawks 142, Knicks 139 | Four Overtimes: Knicks Delay What Has Become the Inevitable, Losing After Four Overtimes
    (Monday, January 30, 2017 3:23:42 AM)

    The Knicks led the Hawks, 139-136, in the fourth overtime, but Carmelo Anthony’s season-high 45 points could not save them in the end.

  • [NYDN] Knicks’ Derrick Rose out against Hawks with ankle injury
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 8:03:32 PM)

    Derrick Rose was held out of Sunday’s game with a sprained left ankle and hinted that he may not return until Saturday.

  • [NYDN] Knicks fall to Hawks in four-overtime marathon, 142-139
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 6:09:48 PM)

    Knicks fall to Hawks in four-overtime marathon, 142-139

  • [NY Newsday] Derrick Rose misses game vs. Hawks because of sprained ankle
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 9:51:51 PM)

    Derrick Rose’s sprained left ankle sidelined him for Sunday’s game, and could keep him out for at least two more.

  • [NY Newsday] Carmelo Anthony scores 45, but Knicks fall to Hawks in 4 OTs
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 9:35:32 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony did all that he could for 46 minutes, scoring 45 minutes in that time. But this game lasted 68 minutes and the Knicks didn’t have enough to pull out the victory.

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis gets sweet revenge on Dwight Howard
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 6:36:05 PM)

    Relatively, Kristaps Porzingis had a short afternoon. He fouled out with 1:30 left in the fourth quarter of the Knicks’ 142-139 four-overtime loss after jostling with Dwight Howard for a rebound. He logged 30 minutes — not much compared to Courtney Lee and Brandon Jennings’ 50-plus. Earlier in the game, though, Porzingis got even with…

  • [NYPost] Hornacek admits reality: Carmelo holds cards for trade
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 4:16:45 PM)

    ATLANTA — Jeff Hornacek hasn’t yet said he wants Carmelo Anthony to stay — but finally acknowledged the Knicks star can’t be traded unless he agrees to it. In recent days, Hornacek has talked about Anthony dealing with trade rumors as every player does but admitted Sunday Anthony doesn’t have to go anywhere if he…

  • [NYPost] An all-time Knicks marathon becomes an all-time heartache
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 2:08:49 PM)

    ATLANTA — By the time this historic, four-overtime classic ended, it felt like the trading deadline already had passed. Carmelo Anthony had long fouled out after scoring 45 points in 46 minutes when the Knicks slogged into a fourth overtime — their second four-overtime game in history, the first one coming Jan. 23, 1951, in…

  • [NYPost] You can’t blame Derrick Rose for this Bulls implosion
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 10:51:48 AM)

    ATLANTA – Things are a soap opera in New York but perhaps not as tawdry as in Chicago. And Derrick Rose isn’t the culprit. Rose, who likely will miss the next three games with a sprained left ankle, including Sunday’s encounter in Atlanta, was blamed for a lot of last season’s Bulls turmoil. Things are now…

  • [ESPN] Monday’s Knicks News: Porzingis enjoyed revenge dunk over Howard
    (Monday, January 30, 2017 5:11:33 AM)

    Monday’s Knicks News: Porzingis enjoyed revenge dunk over Howard

  • [ESPN] Hawks and Paul Millsap prevail, despite Carmelo Anthony’s best effort
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 8:35:22 PM)

    Hawks and Paul Millsap prevail, despite Carmelo Anthony’s best effort

  • [ESPN] Rose may miss multiple games with ankle sprain
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 2:55:17 PM)

    Rose may miss multiple games with ankle sprain

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks fall to Hawks in 4 OTs 142-139 despite Anthony’s 45
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 6:31:14 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony scored 45 points and hit clutch late baskets at the end of regulation and the first overtime, but the Knicks couldn’t capitalize and lost to the Hawks 142-139 in four overtimes Sunday in Atlanta.

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose out for Hawks game with sprained ankle
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 1:48:14 PM)

    Knicks guard Derrick Rose will miss Sunday’s game against Atlanta with a sprained ankle.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks still interested in Celtics as possible trade partner for Melo
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 10:37:11 AM)

    The Knicks are still interested in having the Celtics as a trade partner in a potential Carmelo Anthony deal, reports Gary Washburn of the Boston Globe.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks head to Atlanta with some uncertainty
    (Sunday, January 29, 2017 9:51:25 AM)

    If the New York Knicks are serious about trying to make a playoff push, they may have to start without one of their best players.

  • 168 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.01.30)”

    The only real thing that I don’t understand about Hornacek is how he manages Willy’s minutes. Seriously, only 4 minutes in a 68 minute game? SMH

    I have to admit that Horny as a secret agent giving undercover orders to our tank commanders is a great idea.

    Hornacek is definitely guilty of over-tinkering with the rotation, even if our recent extended struggles help explain why he’s trying too hard to find the right combo of players for different situations. Still, it’s clear at this point that Willy can get buckets against other teams’ second units (and against many teams’ starters).

    Maybe he’s trying to showcase KOQ and others for trade value, while holding onto our best non-KP young asset?

    Maybe he’s trying to showcase KOQ and others for trade value, while holding onto our best non-KP young asset?

    This would be my guess. Playing Willy could both lead to wins and hurt KOQ’s trade value, neither of which we want. I’m fine with moving Lee for just about anything, but I’d actually hold out for a first for KOQ. He’s having a very good season and is signed for another year.

    He made a comment a few games ago about the team folding after another loss. That sounds like a coach not actively trying 100% to win games.

    Trade KOQ for what? A 1st in the 15-30 range so we can get another THJ or Grant? KOQ is a good player, either get something verifiably good for him, or keep him.

    Trade KOQ for what? A 1st in the 15-30 range so we can get another THJ or Grant? KOQ is a good player, either get something verifiably good for him, or keep him.

    I would make that trade, yes. Both of those players were picked in that range, but so were some other players much better than them. I agree that KOQ is a good player, and is on a great contract to boot. The problem is it expires after next season, at which point he’ll either cease to be valuable or cease to be a Knick. We will not be contenders by then, so what’s the point of holding out for some godfather offer that will probably never come?

    A 1st in the 15-30 range

    Can get us a Luke Kennard. He’s lighting it up in college right now.

    This draft is deep which is why it would be great to get another mid-late first rounder.

    I love the tankers mentality. If we trade X, we can get another Kwahi. If we trade Y, we can get the second coming. As if the odds are with us when they’re not. In actuality if we trade O’Quinn or Lee we would be very lucky to end up with another O’Quinn or Lee……when those draft picks eventually grow up and learn how to play pro ball. And even that is unlikely.

    Felt the old familiar Knicks defense mechanism kick in at the start of the 4th OT yesterday.
    The game was on my HDTV bright and sharp. But even as I sat in the room and excited voices and cheering grabbed at my senses, I could feel myself entering deeper into something I was reading.
    I knew too many players had fouled out. I had seen too many foolish fouls and bad foul calls. I knew that Lee had become a go to guy.
    I just knew it would not end well and I didn’t want to be gutted. So when the Knicks needed another last second to hang in for another OT, I knew it would not end well.
    And I hate this. It’s simply impossible to care too much for a franchise seemingly unable to take a next step toward more consistent play.
    The defense is still porous. “Star” players continue to make crucial errors in judgment.
    In some ways, the game was a microcosm of the Melo era. Momentary dazzling play punctuated by a failure to win.
    Is is good for the offense that Melo took 36 shot for 45 points and only four assists? I don’t know. If the Knicks took 119 shots, maybe Melo taking a third of them is fine…but I’m not sure that’s a way to win overall. He hit 50% as well, but again he just as easily will hit 40%.
    There was one play where everyone in the building knew he was going to shoot the baseline fall away and the Hawks had 3-4 defenders flying at him. That means the other team knows Melo won’t use his teammates and his degree of difficulty makes it easier to live with him shooting.
    And on defense, our guards couldn’t guard their guards…and Milsap owned us.

    I just don’t believe with Melo there is a team concept that will help this team win.
    Bracing evening of basketball from him, but the team suffers overall when he dominates the ball.
    He leaves me ambivalent and wanting to turn the page.

    @11

    If we trade X, we can get another Kwahi. If we trade Y, we can get the second coming. As if the odds are with us when they’re not. In actuality if we trade O’Quinn or Lee we would be very lucky to end up with another O’Quinn or Lee

    Its really not like that at all. Its about trading in a position of depth (Center) to get draft capital to fill every other position we’re thin at. Rose and Jennings probably aren’t coming back, Melo is being traded, and Lee might we gone as part of a deal for Melo as well. That’s a lot of minutes at positions 1-3. How are we going to affordably restock those positions without doling out the overpaid contracts teams usually dole out to NBA free agents if we don’t use make use of the draft?

    @12

    Pretty much. Its the way I’ve felt about the Melo era for six years already. Sooner than later we’ll move on.

    Smh I can’t wait for melo to be on the clippers.

    It’s as if you didn’t see melo assist holiday on a huge three and make other passes that would have been assists if they were made. Melo is a gifted scorer thats what he does. I can’t wait till he’s gone from this toxic franchise

    Melo’s my favorite player and I hope he does well wherever he goes. Its time to move on though.

    I don’t understand how anyone thinks this team is going to be a contender in the next two years regardless of what we do, Melo or not. No one wants to play here in FA, even if we hit a bonanza in the draft that talent will most probably have to develop unless its a Magic/Bird level player. Its time to move on and rebuild like a normal/non-dysfunctional franchise would.

    A sensible front office would realize that your team must either be really good, good enough to contend with the GSW/Cavs/SA, or blow it up and rebuild because there is no point trying to contend with the domination window of LBJ and the GSW super-team. Just rebuild in the meantime while those guys battle for the next several years and eventually fade or break up. This is the perfect time for the Knicks to start rebuilding around KP and hopefully begin the next rise by the time GSW and the Cavs start to decline.

    We have three big games tonight. There are 6 teams behind us in the record column who can win tonight going up against each other:

    Sac (19 wins) vs. Phi (17 wins)
    Orl (19 wins) vs. Min (18 wins)
    Bkn (9 wins) vs. Mia (18 wins)

    Orlando is gonna be looking for trades to make the playoffs and Sixers are flat out better than us right now.

    We could be looking at the 9th pick without even trading Melo.

    @21

    I don’t know about Orlando. Word is that they’re in talks with the Celtics to trade Vucevic.

    Yeah they don’t seem to know what they’re doing over there. I much prefer the Dragic rumors for them.

    We need to keep KOQ because he could be the key piece in a trade up to land one of the top draft PGs. If no trade up is required or not accepted by another team, we trade him during the draft for a probable 20-30 pick.

    After last night’s game Doc’s gotta make the trade, right? But maybe in his mind the right trade is for Millsap. Hawks, after all, were shopping him earlier. If Clips don’t trade for anyone, I would think their best course would be to rebuild. Trade Griffin for Nets 2017 and 2018 picks. Jordan would net them two high picks also or a very good young player. And you know Dolan would do a CP3 for KP and Willy swap. CP3’s a CAA client and Dolan would have gigs that BB King would have killed for.

    @19 That’s why I said in an earlier thread that the Knicks should give themselves 3 years. Bow out of the Warriors and Cavs’ height of dominance, try to acquire as many draft picks as you can over the next 5 years, use cap room to bargain hunt or, at worse, sign solid vets to market-reasonable deals to maintain cap and roster flexibility. Emphasize 2-way play on the perimeter with guards/wings who consistently fight over picks and deter penetration, have good court vision, natural ability to share the ball, and can find bigs (read: KP) in opportune positions.

    About trading Melo: It’s a lose-lose for the Knicks unless we get a top-half #1 pick out of the deal, and we won’t. The best thing for us to do is keep him, stay the course and wait for teams to beg us for him. But that won’t happen because Knick fans are calling for his blood. We’ll get what we deserve.

    Although we lost the game yesterday, I have to admit that it was awesome. Two evenly matched teams went toe-to-toe for several hours. The refereeing was pitiful and one-sided. I think there should be terminations involved. On the last play in regulation, Anthony was mauled and several times during the game the Knicks had fouls called on them for “being too close to a Hawk player”. It was a disgraceful exhibition by this team of refs. I call for an investigation.

    @19 – We don’t need to blow anything up. If we can get young superstar assets, great! Otherwise, let it ride.

    But maybe in his mind the right trade is for Millsap. Hawks, after all, were shopping him earlier.

    I was thinking about that but I doubt the Hawks are trade partners. For thing, they’re only 1.5 games out of the 2nd spot in the Eastern Conference playoffs so trading with the Clippers for picks doesn’t make sense for them. For another, Millsap at the 3 is a bit of a mismatch in fit.

    Bow out of the Warriors and Cavs’ height of dominance, try to acquire as many draft picks as you can over the next 5 years, use cap room to bargain hunt or, at worse, sign solid vets to market-reasonable deals to maintain cap and roster flexibility. Emphasize 2-way play on the perimeter with guards/wings who consistently fight over picks and deter penetration, have good court vision, natural ability to share the ball, and can find bigs (read: KP) in opportune positions.

    This is my vision as well and the reason I want Ntilikina so bad. He has defensive skills which make him defensively versatile with good passing instincts.

    @21 & 22 yeah I don’t get the Magic either. All those draft picks they made have turned into legit talent, but I’m wondering if the had a vision for how they wanted to build the team in these recent drafts, or were they just going BPA? And I don’t get that trade for Ibaka either when they already had viable bigs.

    Word is that their GM will get fired if the Magic don’t make the playoffs. Just a terrible situation for them.

    Melo normally doesn’t do anything to push the margin too much in either direction, so I can see an argument for keeping him. However, I think the Knicks would be right to trade him if these two statements are true:

    1) We’re willing to take back Jamal Crawford.
    2) The Clippers are willing to give up JJ Reddick.

    If both of those are true, we can pull off a trade involving the Thunder so we can get back Abrines and their 1st round pick. Reddick, Kuz, and O’Quinn go to OKC and the Clippers get Melo, BJ, and Courtney Lee. We get back Crawford, Rivers, and whatever else it takes to make the salaries match. Tank like hell, draft Jonathan Isaac and Luke Kennard, and then you have bare minimum 3 guys to build around with Willy/KP/Isaac and four if Kennard is the real deal (and he is). If we suck next year we grab Mo Bamba or Hamidou Diallo. In short, by the start of the 2018-2019 season we should be ready to rock as long as we don’t screw up the draft and we don’t sign another 30 year old to a 4 year contract.

    We should try for cam payne if we’re doing a three teamer with OKC. We can give them Jennings, unless LAC wants him if they’re giving up rivers

    About trading Melo: It’s a lose-lose for the Knicks unless we get a top-half #1 pick out of the deal, and we won’t. The best thing for us to do is keep him, stay the course and wait for teams to beg us for him. But that won’t happen because Knick fans are calling for his blood. We’ll get what we deserve.

    Melo can veto a trade to the teams that could truly offer us a great package, and he will. We’re pretty much dealing exclusively with the Clippers at this point, Cleveland really can’t do much for us. That’s why I’m in favor of taking the first good deal they offer. For me, that’s two assets. Two picks or a pick and Reddick is ideal, but if push comes to shove I couldn’t let the deadline pass with a pick and Brice Johnson or a pick and a swap on the table.

    What would be the Knicksiest thing that could happen? Because that’s what’s gonna happen.

    @35 Melo stays beyond the deadline and has to sit the rest of the year with a shoulder injury.

    I live in LA so I overhear fans talking hoops. I was at the grocery store and these two dudes were talking about Melo to the Clippers and saying stuff like “He’s not any better than Jamal Crawford at this point” and “no way I give up Rivers for Melo.” And I had to bite my tongue to not go off on them.

    Look, I know Melo is a divisive figure on this site but the mainstream sports media has really brainwashed a lot of casual fans into believing that Melo is this ball hog, selfish chucking loser and its quite ridiculous. The dude can still ball. He just set a franchise record for points in a quarter and has been putting up 30 plus games efficiently at a pretty consistent pace recently. I get the logic in trading him and starting over and I get that the NTC makes that harder for us. But we shouldn’t accept some shit trade with the Clippers where we get back old players on bad contracts and one late first round pick. We should hold out until the deadline where they might feel more pressure to pull the trigger OR we should just do nothing. The thing is we don’t HAVE to trade Melo at all. He’s still a good player to have on our team. I get people want him gone to insure the tank but there are other ways to do that. You can shut him down for example or trade away some of our other players for additional picks. I get wanting a higher pick this year but for me I’d rather we just play the season out and if we can pull the trigger on some deals that bring additional picks for this draft, that in my eyes would be as good as tanking for a higher pick. Patience is a virtue.

    Plus if the Clips don’t make the trade and get trounced in the first round, then our leverage over them goes up A LOT this off season. CP3 can leave. Blake can leave. I know they most likely won’t but they can threaten to unless they get some help. We have more leverage than we fans think. Also, screw those stupid clipper fans.

    The thing is we don’t HAVE to trade Melo at all. He’s still a good player to have on our team.

    Diminishing returns. The longer we refuse to trade him the less he will acquire.

    @35 Melo stays beyond the deadline and has to sit the rest of the year with a shoulder injury.

    Not Knicksy enough. Let’s Knicksy it up a little: Melo stays beyond the deadline and has to sit the rest of the year with a shoulder injury, and the team still manages to win a bunch of meaningless games that kill their draft position.

    That’s pretty Knicksy.

    Look, I know Melo is a divisive figure on this site but the mainstream sports media has really brainwashed a lot of casual fans into believing that Melo is this ball hog, selfish chucking loser

    what? the mainstream sports media has done precisely the opposite for his whole career, just see how many stories there were about Melo getting “snubbed” from the all star game when he obviously had no place there this year anyway.

    only now stories are starting to come out about him maybe not being good after all, and they are pretty tame to say the least.

    Not Knicksy enough.

    A very favorable deal for Knicks is about to go through when Melo is injured. Doc calls off the trade. Melo returns to lead team to 8th seed on game winning shot in the last game of the season and is immediately given 3 year extension by Dolan. Knicks are swept by Cavs and the 9th seed ends up winning the lottery and drafting Markelle who goes on to be the next Curry.

    “Its about trading in a position of depth (Center) to get draft capital to fill every other position we’re thin at.”

    I agree that trading from positions of depth to fill other positions is a good strategy. However, trading young veterans who are on good contracts and are coming into their own for future lotto tickets is just reckless. Sure, let’s get commensurate value for these players, but not more Jerian Grant-type lotto tickets.

    what? the mainstream sports media has done precisely the opposite for his whole career

    False. Many people have been trying to say hes not good since about 2010. This is a guy who will end up top 5-10 scoring all time when hes done. Idc anymore tho. I just want to see him do well elsewhere. Fuck a narrative. Hopefully they can find a way to get to the WCF

    False. Many people have been trying to say hes not good since about 2010. This is a guy who will end up top 5-10 scoring all time when hes done. Idc anymore tho. I just want to see him do well elsewhere. Fuck a narrative. Hopefully they can find a way to get to the WCF

    Sure some people here and there, but that the media narrative has been favorable towards Melo over the course of his career is indisputable. The production has simply never matched the reputation. I say good for him! He’s probably made a lot of money because of it and it’s not like he was intentionally deceiving anybody.

    @ 45 – I guess we just read different articles.

    Yes, Melo has his supporters in the media. He also has his detractors. Listen to talk radio or ESPN shows like Cowheard when they talk about The Knicks and Melo. It basically goes like this.

    Melo is overrated. He doesn’t share the ball enough. Oh and the Triangle is outdated.

    Its the same stupid bullet points for the last 3 seasons. Melo is old and overrated and selfish. Phil Jackson cares too much about the Triangle. This are the two biggest points most people make about the Knicks. Melo is overrated. Phil is washed up and cares only about the Triangle.

    However, trading young veterans who are on good contracts and are coming into their own for future lotto tickets is just reckless. Sure, let’s get commensurate value for these players, but not more Jerian Grant-type lotto tickets.

    What if we actually like some of the talent at the bottom of the first round? What if we think we can get better than Jerian Grant in a stacked draft?

    then how come most casual fans have believed for so long that Melo is a superstar worthy of olympic medals and so many all star appearances, if they have been brainwashed to believe he’s a terrible player?

    I honestly have nothing against him and would be ok seeing him have success with the Clippers for example, but he’s a volume scorer, that’s it, and has been considered a mega star for pretty much his entire career, which he’s pretty obviously not.

    If you think that putting up a lot of points is what makes a superstar it’s fine, you’re entitled to your opinion, I just completely disagree and the results disagree too.

    I mean, damn, he averages 3.1 assists a game with a 31% usage for his career and people still want to argue against “he doesn’t share the ball enough”.

    I mean I guess we’re parsing the meaning of the word “overrated” here, but I dunno, by my definition Melo is one of the more obviously overrated players in the NBA. He’s thought of in the same group as his friends LeBron, Wade and CP3, and he’s nowhere near the caliber of any of those players.

    Maybe it’s getting to the point now where so many people have said that Carmelo Anthony is overrated that he is now in fact sort of underrated. I mean, the guy’s not a bum. He can score. But his fame is way out of proportion with his impact on the floor. That to me is the very definition of the word “overrated.”

    Not Knicksy enough.

    A very favorable deal for Knicks is about to go through when Melo is injured. Doc calls off the trade. Melo returns to lead team to 8th seed on game winning shot in the last game of the season and is immediately given 3 year extension by Dolan. Knicks are swept by Cavs and the 9th seed ends up winning the lottery and drafting Markelle who goes on to be the next Curry.

    You left out the part where Dolan fires Jackson and brings back Isaiah Thomas “to restore respect and dignity to the Knicks’ franchise”

    Maybe it’s getting to the point now where so many people have said that Carmelo Anthony is overrated that he is now in fact sort of underrated.

    Ding Ding Ding!

    You compared him with the best SF of all time, a top 3-5 SG of all time and a top 3-5 PG of all time. How is that his fault that those are his contemporaries? He has no where near as many 1st and 2nd team all nba appearances as them. So hes not being lumped in with them. Dominique was a great dunker= Fame. Melo is a talented ass scorer= Fame.

    It doesnt mean Dom is close to Bird or Melo is close to LBJ. I dont think people went out of their way back in the Day to say Nique isnt as good as Magic as much as they do to melo.

    I mean, damn, he averages 3.1 assists a game with a 31% usage for his career and people still want to argue against “he doesn’t share the ball enough”.

    Since when is it common for Forwards to avg more assists than this?

    @ 50 – my take on Melo is this. He was overrated. But he’s been called overrated now for the last 5 seasons, basically since joining the Knicks. He’s now been called overrated so much that he’s now underrated.

    It’s all starting to come together:

    – Love is out with a back injury and reportedly the Cavs are worried about it long term
    – Melo is playing his best basketball of the season
    – Boston loves Love

    3 way deal, Melo to Cleveland, Love to Boston, Brooklyn’s pick and filler to the Knicks.

    Make it happen Phil, and all will be forgiven!

    Listen if we can get that 2017 Nets pick and tank enough that we could land Lonzo Ball/Markelle Fultz AND Jonathan Isaac I would laud Phil Jackson as the greatest GM in Knicks’ history. But there is no way we get so lucky that Cleveland trades Love and there’s no way Boston gives us the 2017 Nets pick for Kevin Love’s back problems.

    Sorry, but unless your opinion of Melo is that he’s a league-average player at best, you are overrating him.

    0.9 VORP, .118 WS48, 0.2 BPM, -0.006 WP48.

    At this point, some people still consider him a franchise player and he had, at the time of the signing, one of two full NTC contracts in the league. If you wrote an NBA dictionary, his picture would be next to the word “overrated.” He is the quintessential overrated “superstar.” Cousins appears to be ready to take his crown, once the Syracuse Tourney MVP hype finally dies down.

    I do think the Celtics would have to consider it if they got Love and O’Quinn without having to give up any of Thomas, Bradley, Horford, and Crowder though. They would solve their rebounding problems in a day if that were possible. It’s looking like we’re headed for a game of chicken between Cleveland and LAC. They both need Melo (who would be Olympic Melo on both teams) and they both have injuries to guys in their big 3. Somebody is going to blink and the minute they do we need to get Boston on the line.

    Syracuse Tourney MVP hype

    Speaking of which, Jim Carey had a great joke in his standup comedian days where he said you can always tell how pathetic a guy is at something by far back in life he has to go to brag about it. The fact that people are still hyping Melo’s NCAA champion credentials, what, 14 years into his NBA career to prove his championship pedigree is really fucking sorry.

    The fact that people are still hyping Melo’s NCAA champion credentials

    Who? Syracuse fans? SMH. And its not hyping its fact. He has a college chip. Most Nba players dont have a college championship, Nba championship or an olympic gold medal. It was a big deal that Larry brown would have been the first to have all three, but i guess thats just “hyping” up old shit. smh

    what, 14 years into his NBA career to prove his championship pedigree is really fucking sorry.

    Big talk from a big man eh? Where your trophies at?

    The issue with melo isn’t how many assists he gets, it’s the ball stopping.

    I basically had to stop watching this team because it was making me physically ill to watch possession after possession with the same shit happening: everybody stands around while melo establishes position at the elbow, melo dribbles, fakes and jab steps for 10 seconds while everybody stands around, then melo either takes a step back fade way or drives, occasionally making a nice pass on his drive.

    It’s freaking demoralizing to watch this over and over again, and nothing will change until he’s gone because melo runs the team.

    jowles said everything already.

    Melo is not a superstar no matter how many mental gymnastics you go through to try to prove it, unless scoring a lot of points or winning a NCAA championship is your criteria.

    but anyway, soon he’s gone and thankfully another unlucky fan base will be having this discussion every single day… I’m just fucking happy it’s not gonna be us anymore.

    Speaking of Cousins and knicksy……..
    I wonder what a KP plus their #1 for Cousins and Collison deal would do to this board. Would Dolan live through his next appearance at the Garden? Would the melo optimists on this board proclaim the knicks contenders?

    btw the Knicks should trade asap for Shabazz Napier, kid has not only one but two NCAA chips!!! what a star.

    Not Knicksy enough. Let’s Knicksy it up a little: Melo stays beyond the deadline and has to sit the rest of the year with a shoulder injury, and the team still manages to win a bunch of meaningless games that kill their draft position.

    That’s pretty Knicksy.

    Or Melo takes his all-star “snub” to heart and plays just well enough to be the replacement player for Love in the ASG where he then blows out his knee.

    From David Aldridge: Dallas could certainly use someone who can score the way Anthony can, but the Mavericks have made it clear that Wesley Matthews is off-limits, and league sources indicate that Deron Williams is equally unattainable.

    “Deron Williams is equally unattainable” might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. I mean, Phil should call Aldridge just to say, “Hey David, I want you to know that Marshall Plumlee CANNOT BE HAD. Tell other GMs not to ask, because it ain’t happening.”

    I heard Golden State was offering Curry for Deron Williams, and Donnie Nelson was like, “Can’t you idiots read? He’s unattainable!”

    Wesley Matthews is actually decent, overpaid but decent… definitely should never be considered untradeable tho, and Deron is so done.

    the Mavs will be very stupid if they do not make some moves, specially with Bogut’s expiring contract.

    I mean, Phil should call Aldridge just to say, “Hey David, I want you to know that Marshall Plumlee CANNOT BE HAD. Tell other GMs not to ask, because it ain’t happening.”

    lol

    Though I’d like to keep Plumlee – a solid 4th big to have on a great (cheap) contract. I think he’ll be fine getting 10 minutes per game once Oak is gone.

    Noah/KP/Willy/Plumlee – we really can afford to trade Oak, much as I like him, for the right return (the Nets pick in a multi-team deal involving the Celts).

    If it’s true that Melo would waive his NTC for Boston you get on the phone with Boston immediately and negotiate for the next 3 weeks (hoping that they lose lots of games in the meantime.) They’re the ideal trade partner for Melo, Nets picks or no.

    Boston absolutely has the best collection of assets for the Knicks to get. Whether we deal Melo to them directly or include them in a 3-way deal, Phil ought to prioritize Boston over any other trade partners.

    Some reports on twitter say Boston is the best option for the third team in a trade. Not a destination for Melo.

    DX has us taking Justin Patton 12th. We really needed another Center.

    DX says pretty clearly uptop of their mocks that need is NOT considered. They don’t consider need/roster fit until riiiiight before the draft.

    I know. Right now we’re in that range were the best guard/wing prospects are gonna be off the board. There’s a reason why a lot of people here want us to move up in the lottery, even if it’s just a few spots.

    Boston has said that they’re not interested in Melo and I believe them because they’re smart. We need to concentrate on the dumber GMs like Lebron and Doc. I do believe that the Celtics might give up the Nets pick for Love though.

    Oh, when you said “we really needed another center” i thought you were expressing disapproval with their projection of us taking Patton, which wouldn’t make sense since need isn’t accounted for – sorry about the mix up.

    Assuming Noah, Willy, and Zinger are on this team for the forseeable future, it makes zero sense to draft a C and little sense to draft a PF. If Melo or KOQ are still here, that’s even more true. Even Lance or Kuz can play PF in a smaller lineup.

    We desperately need guards and wings. Even if a big man is the best player available, I’d still take a guard/wing.

    The celtics are going to keep waiting for a mythical young great superstar to appear on the trade market for as long as possible before worrying about trading any of their guards or picks.

    It won’t happen, then we’ll see them exploring the trade market next year, right before Smart, Bradley, and IT are all FA, since IT will likely command 100+, Bradley will command 80+, and Smart will command 50+. Till then, they not gonna trade these dudes for anyone not named kevin love, especially with them having the brooklyn pick

    The Celtics are probably interested in O’quinn, which makes sense for both teams.

    We desperately need guards and wings. Even if a big man is the best player available, I’d still take a guard/wing.

    I don’t think you consider Melo in your draft consideration, let alone KOQ and Willy.

    Also, several of the top prospects are mobile bigs, who might even be able to defend power forwards *and* centers. Having KP gives you the flexibility to take a “PF” who isn’t a “c” if they have plus mobility, esp on the defensive end. How the player pairs with KP is the paramount thing, everyone else on the roster should be irrelevant.

    It might be rough in the shortgoing but KP can protect the rim and defend 4s credibly, so I don’t think the knicks should be avoid **all** bigs — just the less defensively mobile ones that REALLY overlap like Markannen,

    I’d rather take one of the mobile bigs like bridges, patton, or williams, or zalgiris aka euro noah, than Jayson Tatum, personally. But i’d definitely take Monk or Isaac before those dudes, haha.

    someone was floating Melo to OKC, for Canter and someone else…maybe picks as well.

    @87

    I’d rather maximize the talent on the roster. Sacramento has been drafting with a BPA mentality and now they have five guys who should all be playing center, except none of them get any time because their best player is also a center. Same with Philly, to a lesser extent. Noel and Okafor can’t get on the floor because of Embiid.

    I don’t want Willy wasting away on the bench because we drafted a big man — which would also force Zing to play PF and sideline Noah. Even KOQ and Melo should be playing, if only to showcase them for trades.

    Considering that we have all of our bigs under contract through 2018 and only one guard, it doesn’t make sense to draft a big guy who either won’t play or will take away minutes from other decent players, all while we suffer with a terrible backcourt.

    Phil needs to get Sandy Alderson to help him with these negotiations. Otherwise it’ll be like Kramer accepting coffee for life. “We’ll give you Crawford”… “I’ll take it!”

    Big talk from a big man eh? Where your trophies at?

    lol you’re really rolling up your sleeves to defend a famous guy with nine figures in the bank

    Nah. not at all. ive stopped posting here as much because if your not in line with the group think you get ganged up on. You right. jowels carry on with your group think warriors.

    Fuck this team. They and their insufferable fans get what they deserve

    Do you think Melo deserves an All-NBA bid this year? Tell me where you think he ranks out of all NBA players and all wing players.

    You can have one of the following players for the rest of the 2016-17 season and they all cost the same money and the contract expires at the end of the year.

    Giannis, Harden, Melo or Paul George. How would you rank them?

    honestly, I’d be very fine with trading KOQ and pretty much starting Willy for the rest of the year, it would be nice to see how he handles the extra playing time this early in his career, see what we really have with him.

    I have high hopes that with any decent guard on the court he’ll be a very good offensive player, but we need to see if he can handle starting big men from the better teams on the glass. KOQ is the perfect type of asset to sell to a third team asking for a deal sweetener.

    I think this board was actually pretty divided before the season. It would’ve been hard to pin down one line of “group think.” After one side was proved to be objectively correct, well, yeah things got more one sided but that seems pretty normal.

    Team Realist: This team is gonna be mediocre.
    Team Optimist: No way, this is a 50+ win team easy!
    (team gets out to 14-10 start)
    Team Optimist: See, Team Realist! You guys were wrong!
    Team Realist: Nah, not really. Outperforming Pythag.
    Team Optimist: Oh, what, all of a sudden Pythag wins are a thing? You guys are pessimists!
    Team Realist: You’ll see soon enough.
    (couple of months later)
    Team Optimist: You guys are jerks!

    @98 I’m not for a total rebuild. Our team is good and full of real talent that has to come together so I say no to that trade. If we simply trade our #1 pick for Ricky Rubio we’d be a terrific team.

    @99 – So I’m in the “optimist” group. I predicted 43 wins and the playoffs. We got off to a hot start and was happy. We slumped and I was sad.

    43 was my optimistic perspective. I was optimistic because if we don’t break up the team and replace the old broken down parts over the next 3 years with better parts as they come off the books, we had a good chance of making some noise in the playoffs.

    Underline this: Nobody except for CLE and GS had a shot at winning the 2016-2017 NBA title. Nobody in their right minds thought differently. BTW, the same will hold true for 2017-2018.

    @98 I’m not for a total rebuild. Our team is good and full of real talent that has to come together so I say no to that trade. If we simply trade our #1 pick for Ricky Rubio we’d be a terrific team.

    Screw that. Rule: Thou shall not trade a #1 pick – EVER

    @98 I’m not for a total rebuild. Our team is good and full of real talent that has to come together so I say no to that trade. If we simply trade our #1 pick for Ricky Rubio we’d be a terrific team.

    I didn’t notice who posted this at first, so when I read it I assumed it was Jowles being snarky.

    Also, this is a really bad idea.

    Nah. not at all. ive stopped posting here as much because if your not in line with the group think you get ganged up on

    You stopped posting here because you’ve been proven flat wrong. This team sucks and you know it no matter how much you want to cry about unfairly its stars have been treated. But here is the reality – not even your hero Carmelo wants to stay anymore. His ass is out the door onto the next thing. Stop defending him, it looks desperate like the battered housewife who swears her husband loves her as he leaves out the door.

    If we simply trade our #1 pick for Ricky Rubio we’d be a terrific team.

    Oh sweet lord.

    @100 NO NO NO NO NO and HELL NO!

    There’s just no way, with every ounce of optimism you have in your soul, that you believe Ricky Rubio is worth a number #1 pick in this draft in which we’re likely lottery-bound. And listen, I think Rubio could be more of the point guard we need vs Rose. But as many here have pointed out, we are not a Ricky Rubio away from serious contention – and that was before the trade Melo talk. Moves like that is what the franchise under Phil has moved away from and must continue to do so for long term sustainability talent-wise.

    So no, Reub, you do NOT trade our first rounder this year for a got-damned Ricky Rubio no matter how optimistic you are that this team is “close”.

    I’d like Ricky Rubio but NOT for this year’s pick. Or next year’s… Or…

    If Love has got back problems, then why would Boston trade for him? I mean, I’d LOVE to get the Nets pick from them in a 3 way deal, but I just don’t see it happening.

    I really worry that Melo will get hurt and kill all trade chances.

    Reub also thought Derrick Rose was gonna be awesome but then when it became apparent that Derrick Rose actually sucks like all the smart people said, he just sort of stopped talking about Derrick Rose. So when he says we should trade a #1 for Ricky Rubio and that we would then have a great team, remember why Ricky Rubio would even represent a PG upgrade in the first place: because the original guy that reub loved turned out to be a scrub.

    The tl;dr version: ignore reub.

    I think the spurs have a shot.

    If the Clippers trade their 2021 and 2023 1st rounders, redick, Crawford, Wes johnson plus other crap to match salaries, for melo and Lee, they have a shot.

    I really worry that Melo will get hurt and kill all trade chances.

    If there is anything that Melo’s play the past two weeks has proven, its that he’s as committed to leaving this team as Phil is to trading him away. He had similar types of games the last 10 games before he was traded from Denver to here back in 2011. No small amount of injury is going to stop him. That Atlanta game is proof of what he can do when determined. Its going to be a hell of a ride.

    If Love has back problems then maybe we should trade for him and keep him long term? Better than Melo.

    Reub also thought Derrick Rose was gonna be awesome but then when it became apparent that Derrick Rose actually sucks like all the smart people said, he just sort of stopped talking about Derrick Rose.

    Other posters who shall not be named also defended him up until he turned a little bitch and went missing.

    Other posters who shall not be named also defended him up until he turned a little bitch and went missing.

    I forgot your original poster name. Either way, take it from a seasoned pro: chiiiiilllllllll.

    Derek Fisher has just weighed in on our dismal 2016-17 season:

    “We were able to take a team that wasn’t as talented as the team they have now, and we were much better and much further along than this group is that they have now. Because the foundation was being laid. That’s different than just trying to coach basketball — and it takes longer. That’s the part that you can’t measure in wins and losses either. That’s what we were doing the best at.”

    Fisher had never coached before taking the Knicks job, and he says it was even harder trying to execute what Jackson wanted, installing and teaching the triangle, as the Knicks were rebuilding.

    To observe something from the place that Phil has sat and experienced, you can’t compare to that,” Fisher said. “You can’t try and say someone else isn’t doing it the way possibly one of the greatest who has ever been able to do it, did it when he did it. They don’t teach ninth-grade algebra the same way they used to teach ninth-grade algebra. One of the challenges for all of us was we were in the basketball department under the umbrella of Phil Jackson and who he was and who he is and what he was able to do as coach and leader,” Fisher said. “Then [when you’re] asking me as a head coach in a sense not to create the same results but take the same system or way of playing and try and teach these guys how to play it — and utilize it in similar ways as when he taught it — I think at times it was more challenging for our players to really understand, ‘Who am I committing myself to? Who am I selling myself to? Who am I running through the brick wall for?’

    Fisher went 17-65 in his first season with the Knicks in 2014-15. He said he thought the Knicks were on the right path and that then-rookie Porzingis was developing nicely when he was fired. But he said that he and his former Lakers coach didn’t mesh as they had hoped in their new roles as coach and president.

    We both didn’t know exactly what we were doing,” Fisher said. “Being the head coach is not like playing. Being president is not like being the head coach. That’s one of the reasons why we didn’t quite complete our meshing and blending of talents and thoughts, because those two positions are not always aligned.

    Rose was balling and then hurt his back. He hasn’t been the same since. Then I went on a Caribbean cruise and you guys completely ruined him somehow. I don’t know what you did to make him leave the team but it was bsd for sure. But I forgive you.

    Rubio makes everybody on the team better. We need someone like that. Does Frank Ntilikina do that?

    Rubio makes everybody on the team better. We need someone like that.

    He’s a fine addition I’d like to have on this team, but a very limited player who should not be traded for a lottery pick. You will find no NBA willing to make this trade obvious reasons.

    Does Frank Ntilikina do that?

    Jesus Christ.

    Melo gets injured too. All the greats do.

    Even the non-greats too, like Derrick Rose.

    But more seriously, what about just trading Melo plus a Lee and or a Jennings for the ailing Love straight up if Boston balks? We could either keep him long term or trade him later. He’s better, younger, has a nicer contract, and has more trade value than does Melo. I know that the Cavs may not be interested but we should do it anyway.

    I don’t think Lebron is a bad enough GM to trade Love for Melo, and it’s pretty much never happening.

    he is a bad enough GM to want Melo in the first place, and I secretly hope the Cavs keep losing so the dream 3-way trade with the Celtics becomes a possibility, but I’m still preparing myself for disaster, as usual with the Knicks.

    The media definitely isn’t doing the Knicks any favors, though, as the article that said that Melo would consider waiving his NTC to go to Boston also said that if such a deal happened, it would be for “draft picks (though likely not one of the Nets’ highly coveted first-rounders) and talented players.”

    @125

    Especially if Ainge is going to be cheap about it and not offer a Nets pick.

    So no one has a comment on what Fisher said weighing in on the Knicks situation? He left the team 23-31. Are we going to accept his premise that the team worsened after his tenure or do we need to amend his assessment by saying the team worsened in part because of the way he left it.

    Love for Melo + might make Cleveland better this season. I don’t think Lebron is all that concerned with the long term franchise outlook.

    Rose was balling and then hurt his back. He hasn’t been the same since. Then I went on a Caribbean cruise and you guys completely ruined him somehow. I don’t know what you did to make him leave the team but it was bsd for sure. But I forgive you.

    that’s it reub…no more vacations for you…leave your “optimistic” knick guard post for a minute and things deteriorate fast…

    Nah. not at all. ive stopped posting here as much because if your not in line with the group think you get ganged up on.

    other than the fact that most of us are disgruntled new yorkers (hmmmm, maybe disgruntled actually equals “new yorker”) – i din’t think there is much consensus here at all er…

    just lots of folks with lots of different ideas, thoughts and opinions; and, the not so rare gallows’ humor…

    what’s really funny – if someone other than a true knick fan was to tell me just how bad an organization the knicks truly are – i’d definitely not respond kindly – here though, you can find fellow knick fans whom can appreciate just how awful/inept a team we root for…

    go knicks – for life…hmmmm, wonder how many old cubs fans ever believed they’d win a trophy…

    So no one has a comment on what Fisher said weighing in on the Knicks situation? He left the team 23-31. Are we going to accept his premise that the team worsened after his tenure or do we need to amend his assessment by saying the team worsened in part because of the way he left it.

    It’s a pretty moot point really considering his team and this years team are pretty different. I would say everything was pretty much the same after he left, but by the stage the team was in a free fall (especially after Melo injured his ankle), so it’s pretty easy to say that things got worse when they were already on the way down when he left.

    The Fisher situation is really interesting in knowing how much of his personal life influence the decision to move him on. If it was purely basketball, I think he was stiff to potentially be let go, but honestly who knows. I really hope Hornacek can put together a coaching staff next year rather than pushing on with the one he has inherited. I don’t doubt the acumen of his staff (except maybe Rambis), but a fresh lot of voices would be ideal for him.

    what’s really funny – if someone other than a true knick fan was to tell me just how bad an organization the knicks truly are – i’d definitely not respond kindly – here though, you can find fellow knick fans whom can appreciate just how awful/inept a team we root for…

    Ha ha spot on. I say this about my home town too. Only myself and others from there can make fun of it. If you aren’t from there and looking for beef, then you can take a long walk off a short pier mate.

    here’s to hoping horny sticks around for at least another year or two…we’ve had 10 coaching changes in the last 15 years or so…not exactly a recipe for success…

    Geo …you are probably right. I just hate that I love this team. They make me sick. I’m a knick by birth not by choice. And this whole melo thing is in such poor taste. He’s the only big name who has ever wanted to play here. Think about that. Amare came because we were the only ones dumb enough to pay him.

    I’ve never had a knick team that I could enjoy watching and expected to win every game except 2012. I was too young for the early 90s and 99

    @122 – I never agree with you. Ever.
    I agree. I would love little Nate on the Knicks. His attitude will wear off fast, but I would have loved to see him run up and down the court chucking up ball after ball like a lunatic.

    And I think that Fisher is an immature loudmouth.

    come on, as a 35 year old lifelong Knicks fan I feel your pain er, I really do, but this franchise has Bernard, Ewing, Clyde, Willis…

    when Melo came I really really hoped he would turn into a mega star, and all would be well… but he didn’t, it sucks and it’s time to move on.

    others, hopefully better, will surely come.

    i’m with you…melo, despite his sloth on defense (which to be honest, considering how much he carries the team on offense and plays a sizeable amount of minutes – can kind of be expected) and that crazy iso focus of his (yeah, a few times towards the end of yesterdays game – iso melo was painfully obvious), with the right pieces on the team (defense, defense, defense) – he could definitely be a key part for a winning team…

    plus, as far as i can tell, since about a year or so after he arrived – he’s been a really stand up guy…and yes, i imagine that a lot of other players are a little skeptical about stepping into the fire of basketball at msg…remember just how enthusiastic rose was to initially get here – ha ha….

    i’m glad i got to catch the 90’s knicks teams, a lot of fun (except for that stupid game 6 against houston in the finals)…wish i had been old enough to appreciate the early 70’s style knicks…

    knick by birth :-)…that reminds me of mike mentioning the other day that he wasn’t steering his child toward being a knick fan…imagine if all those cub/boston/warrior fans had just given up…although in mike’s situation with his child growing up away from new york, it’s a little more understandable for a youngster to be able to pick their own team…

    what’s really ironic though – since i’ve been watching the yanks, they’ve won 7 rings, the g-men – 4 rings…but, it’s the knicks that i’m normally completing engrossed with…never would have guessed i’d be such a big fan of tmz type sports…

    sooner or later, we’re bound to stumble in to a winning situation…and, all the pain and suffering will just make it feel all that much sweeter…at least that’s what i try to trick myself into believing from time to time…

    look, see – coming to knickerblogger is cheaper than having to shell out money for the counseling that’s needed by being a fan of this team……

    come on, as a 35 year old lifelong Knicks fan I feel your pain er, I really do, but this franchise has Bernard, Ewing, Clyde, Willis…

    when Melo came I really really hoped he would turn into a mega star, and all would be well… but he didn’t, it sucks and it’s time to move on.

    others, hopefully better, will surely come.

    I think given what we surrendered to get Melo, most of us wanted Melo to succeed. I think for the most part Melo has done what he could with the teams he has had and his skill set. Yes he is a flawed player, but he has stood pretty firm in a tough market and has really become a pretty decent character guy. I think it’s time to move on from the Melo area, but at the same time I would be really happy if he could win a ring somewhere.

    That all being said, if Melo does retire as a Knick; where does that leave him among Knicks alumni? Even if he doesn’t where does it leave him?

    well, I’ve watched my favorite soccer team win 21 domestic titles and be the most dominant force in the country for literally my whole life, and I still probably care more for the Knicks than I do for Rosenborg…

    it’s basically comes down to, well, I know Rosenborg is well managed and in a perennial superb position, so I don’t have to worry ya know? They’ll pretty much always be contenders because of soccer’a structure and it’s fine if they have off years… the Knicks? not so much, and I believe that’s why I’m most invested into them as a fan.

    @140 I think Melo will end up hanging around the Allan Houston place in Knicks history… another not-really-a-superstar guy who many fans grew attached to in hard times, who had more success than Melo because of the circumstances around him.

    I would post something smart and/or witty, but it would just get lost in the bullshit.

    @142

    Good comparison. I would probably have Melo a bit higher than Houston, but certainly within the ball park. Great players without a whole lot of success.

    I know that the Cavs may not be interested but we should do it anyway.

    good shit, reub

    Houston was SO milquetoast. It didn’t help that he took over for Starks or played alongside Sprewell but he everything about him was just so boring. Not to mention, his era was the beginning of the end for the Knicks.

    He had that awful contract, he became James Dolan’s toady… I appreciate the shot in game 5 and all but he’s there with Marbury (for different reasons) as my least favorite face of the franchise.

    yeah, it got sour REALLY fast with Houston… his last four years with the Knicks laid the foundation of crap this franchise faces still today.

    with Melo things started sour with the absurd trade, got a little better for a while and dropped off a cliff right after.

    Come on, Bruno… Melo is a way better player than Allan not to mention his body hasn’t fallen apart like Houston’s did in his early 30s. He probably is the best player we’ve had since Ewing although you could make arguments for Tyson and Camby.

    Melo is a really good player, and the odds that we find another player through the draft or in KP who is as good as him are low even if we tank this season. Carmelo has probably had as good a career as the average #1 overall pick. It’s not impossible that we could tank 3 seasons in a row and never find a player as good as he was at his best.

    But it is near impossible that we won’t find several players in those drafts who in two years won’t be better than whatever Melo has left in the tank at that point.

    The need to trade him has always been more about the Knicks’ position as a team during his time here and the general truth that when you’re behind in a competition against 30 other teams and only one can win, upside matters more than average case scenario.

    Come on, Bruno… Melo is a way better player than Allan not to mention his body hasn’t fallen apart like Houston’s did in his early 30s. He probably is the best player we’ve had since Ewing although you could make arguments for Tyson and Camby.

    Definitely better than Houston for sure, but we probably aren’t raising his number in the rafters at MSG.

    Melo’s much better than Houston. Melo’s been a fine player. Just not a good time for him to still be on the team.

    I agree he’s better latke, but mostly because he’s a decent rebounder; they have identical ts% for their careers (.545), not great assist numbers and Melo, also partly a result of his size and position, has much better rebounding numbers (which end up giving him an edge in ws48 for example).

    Houston was not a very good defender but he played in a strong system with (mostly) good teammates for some years and while Melo hasn’t had the system around him, I think it’s fair to say he’s not a good defender at all.

    overall I’d give the edge to Carmelo, yes, but I don’t think it’s that clear cut considering different positions and roles on he court.

    also, the question was where would Melo fit in the Knicks “pantheon”, and Houston’s career, at least in the first couple of years, had him being a somewhat important player in a squad that undoubtedly achieved more than Melo did for his entire Knick career.

    I agree he’s better latke, but mostly because he’s a decent rebounder; they have identical ts% for their careers (.545), not great assist numbers and Melo, also partly a result of his size and position, has much better rebounding numbers (which end up giving him an edge in ws48 for example).

    Not to be a dick here, but the league average for eFG% was .478 when Houston played his best season (2000) and it’s currently .512 here in 2017. The league has changed quite a bit.

    Houston’s career .545 TS% would have placed 4th in team TS% in 2000, just after the Blazers’ .546. This year, it would have ranked 17th. Houston was a more-efficient scorer, for his era.

    That said, Houston is up there with Carmelo for “most overrated Knicks.” He was a mediocre-to-bad player with one of the biggest contracts in the league. Pure, unadulterated Knicks.

    Houston came to the Knicks as a great shooter, but then he shot pretty mediocrely until the team was terrible, at which point he shot well again. His two previous seasons before he joined the Knicks, he shot over 57% TS both years, but then was 53%, 53% and 51% in his first three years as Knick. If he was a better shooter, the odds were that the Knicks would have had at least a shot at a title in 97 and 99.

    yes Brian, but the same could be said about Melo but in reverse: he shot better in his first two full years and has been decidedly mediocre ever since.

    A funny thing that they had in common is that they were both at their peaks as Knicks right before they were re-signed to terrible contracts. 🙂

    Funny, I remember Houston as a better shooter. Never as good as his stroke, which is the prettiest of all time, but still good. I guess it was just that the league was worse.

    Funny, I remember Houston as a better shooter. Never as good as his stroke, which is the prettiest of all time, but still good. I guess it was just that the league was worse.

    He had that rep when he came to the Knick (as he was coming off legitimately great shooting seasons for Detroit) and it just stuck, despite him not shooting that well for the Knicks back when the team was actually good and therefore could have really used him. I remember being so disappointed at the time that Houston wasn’t the guy that we hoped he would be, as that 1996-97 team was well set up, otherwise.

    yeah, I think we can all safely agree that both have been overpaid in terrible timings for this franchise haha.

    one thing that I didn’t expect checking Houston’s numbers was that I remember him chucking it up all the time, specially when the team went to shit, but he actually had a fairly low usage rate… Melo’s highest year was an insane 35.4 and Houston’s highest is 27.

    I don’t see how Melo can be considered anything like an all-time great Knick. He played on ONE good Knick team and won one playoff series. To me he’s just another symbol of our starfucking owner and the ineptitude of the franchise. He’s been somewhere between good and very good as a Knick — never great — but also has key holes in his game that have held us back.

    God knows the team has been run poorly around him, but he couldn’t blend with Amar’e, couldn’t blend with Lin, didn’t get along with Tyson, couldn’t win under D’antoni, etc. Look at what Harden, another no-defense iso scorer, is doing under D’Antoni this year. They’re killing it.

    and well, not to beat a dead horse, but Houston’s success in his early years were a result of having pretty good players around him, while Melo is at least partially to blame for the team being comparatively much worse when he arrived.

    I think he’ll be remembered in a similar way to Houston, still, but right now I’m more concerned about if it’s really the end of his era in New York lol

    I don’t have any animosity toward Melo, like I did for losers like Eddy Curry, Tim Thomas, Steve Francis, and Big Snacks. Let’s just be honest with ourselves that his tenure has been largely unsuccessful. There is plenty of blame to go around, and he bears some of it.

    I wish him well in his next stop. But for everyone’s sake, it’s time for him to go.

    @162

    I agree completely.
    we have watched all those bums be our “stars”, and Marbury, Jamal, Z-Bo, Al Buckets, etc and it is what it is, it’s time to just move on.

    Urgh Tim Thomas. Hands down the worst of the Thomas’ of that era. Terrible locker room guy.

    Tim Thomas was inexplicably one of my least favorite Knicks. 6’10” but pillow soft with no defensive effort or rebounds. Announcers always talked about his incredible gifts but he couldn’t do jack besides loft up 18-footers.

    Very similar to Bargnani. Hated them both.

    His Fugazi comments aimed at Kenyon Martin rank as one of the shinning moments of 00’s Knick history.

    While you guys debated Melo’s overratedness there were a bunch of wonderful developments last night that aided our tank and trade situation. Cavaliers lost again without Love, this time against the Mavericks. Dallas has been on something of a hot streak, going 7-3 their last ten games while the Cleveland have been 4-6 in that same span. Will the Cavs get desperate to up the ante for Melo in a trade? Who knows? But they aren’t so separated from the rest of the pack anymore. Meanwhile, Dallas is 3 wins behind us now.

    Heat also beat the Nets to win their 8th game in a row and are officially the hottest team in the league right now. They are just 2 games behind us in the record column, a standing no one would have predicted two weeks ago. 76ers also continued their ascent from the NBA’a dregs with their victory over the Kings and are just 3 games behind us in the record column. Timberwolves were also victorious over the Magic, making both 19 win teams.

    Gentlemen, the Tanks is very much alive and well and if the Knicks play their cards right there’s nothing that will stop them to a bottom five finish in front of only the Nets, Lakers and Suns.

    dtrickey, this will forever be one of my favorite quotes of all time:

    “It kind of stuck. I’m from Paterson NJ, 10th Ave. and E. 29th. My city is called Pakistan right now. They call him Ken in his hometown, where he’s from. They call me Big Dog and Big Homie or OG where I’m from. So it’s a major difference right there.”

    This is Knick history.

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