2016-17 Game Thread: Knicks @ Celtics

The Knicks head to Boston to take on the Boston Celtics tonight.

The Knicks will be playing without both Kristaps Porzingis and Joakim Noah (and Lance Thomas, for that matter), so you would think that that would spell doom for the Knicks tonight and, frankly, it probably will, but I dunno, I could see the Celtics looking past the Knicks due to Porzingis and Noah not being there and then having Melo and O’Quinn surprise them.

Mostly, though, I’m basing that on my whole “just waiting for the Knicks to win a game they shouldn’t just to mess with their lottery odds” outlook on this season.

Logically, the Celtics should win this one easily, which is good for the Knicks’ tanking purposes, but I dunno…I could see Melo going off. Melo at the 4 has the promise of winning basketball. Don’t be shocked if the Knicks surprise us tonight.

Let’s go, Knicks?

368 replies on “2016-17 Game Thread: Knicks @ Celtics”

Holy hell. KP and Noah both getting MRIs, Lance Thomas out, Melo playing hurt.

At least plenty of opportunity for Rose to showcase his talents………

Only the Knicks could have fucked the great situation we have with KP. I fucking called it when I noted him fading in December. Hornacek was playing him way too many goddamn minutes. Now he’s about to have an MRI on his Achilles. This is bullshit.

It was mind blowingly dumb that KP didn’t have an MRI initially because it “didn’t feel that bad” or whatever. This team always winds up getting what it deserves, which is a sad thing for us fans.

If KP can’t play 35 mins a game at 20….I don’t think that’s anyone’s fault but his own body. We don’t know that is the reason for the injury anyway

If KP can’t play 35 mins a game at 20….I don’t think that’s anyone’s fault but his own body.

Gradually easing in your talented bigman into NBA minutes is something Philly has done with Embiid and Denver has so far managed to do with Jokic.

In 73 games of Euroleague basketball, KP has played 1600+ minutes of basketball during three seasons. In 36 games of NBA basketball this season alone KP played 1200+ minutes in just 33 games (half an NBA season). He was being overplayed beyond what his body was used to. Had he a more an extensive career it would be one thing, but he did not so his age is irrelevant to the discussion.

Anyone else not getting League Pass to load? I’ll bet it has something to do with the free pass going on at this time…

Nice defense Melo. Your commitment to the Knicks shines with your effort.

34+ mins a game isn’t crazy. Is 32 better for you?

Mind you KP has come in to the league from the best time for players. They have a longer all star break and less back 2 backs

One and done and high school players are used to and NBA schedule……

@14

WTF are you talking about? Kevin Durant played 35 minutes per fucking game in college as an 18/19 year old. KP played 14.9 minutes a game. Jesus.

Tensions are a bit high here fam if I could embed some memes we’d be alright but Stasi mods want to keep discussion rational and not image based

Let’s lend the Knicks the energy they need to lose this game instead

Come on, guys, you can’t just go from 0 to “you’re a fucking moron” in, like, a post. 🙂 So don’t do that. Feel free to argue with each other, but come on, keep it civil-ish. 😉

im on the plumlee train… he was the first knick defender to not jump on a close out … and for all intensive purposes, it worked as “good” defense…

all im doing is watching plumlee… looked up court for the outlet… love it… almost a bad pass but it wasnt… secondly… that was a bad offensive foul call on him… and thirdly…he was just nutmegged…

I agree that the offensive foul call on Plumlee was BS. I like him as our enforcer.

Plum does look to me like he moves on his screens. But then again, lots of guys do that and don’t get called.

You know what I hate most about the Celtics? They’re going to be in the conference semi finals, be picking in the top 5 of the NBA draft, and they’re going to have cap space. And then the same thing is going to happen next year.

Boston is going to win a championship and I’m gonna be sick.

i think he moves at the perfect moment actually… he had one really solid roll i thought where the defense was in a tough spot

You know what I hate most about the Celtics? They’re going to be in the conference semi finals, be picking in the top 5 of the NBA draft, and they’re going to have cap space. And then the same thing is going to happen next year.

Mostly because after we eliminated them and ended the big 3 era, they didn’t panic and blow all of their flexibility on guys who weren’t worth it. Huh.

Billy King helped, but none of the picks they got are contributors yet. They got good again in two seasons mostly by just not doing Knicksy stuff.

Dad, what was NY like when you were a kid?
NY was like it always was.

WTF does that mean?

Why are the coaches sitting so much? Get up and intimidate somebody.

Hot Take:

The Knicks are a better team without all of KP, Rose, Noah, and Melo.

Knicks are lucky to be in this game. I’ve see zero defense from our guys.

It’s really bizarre. It’s to the point where I’m, like, congratulating guys when they hustle, even when they’re still playing shitty d.

I’m telling you, the Celtics were looking past the Knicks. That’s always a recipe for disaster (well, unless you’re the Warriors, who also were looking past the Knicks and still destroyed them).

I can feel all the enthusiasm in this room. It’s electrifying.

We need a guy to defend small point guards. Why not Briante Weber or GP2?

Jennings is like a walking heat check. Whenever he makes some shots, he thinks he’ll make them ALL.

63 points on the Celtics in one half?

Ehh, we won’t be able to stop IT in the 4th quarter anyway

The Celtics totally took this for granted. Even if it is bad for the tank, I still love them beating the Celtics. But yeah, not a whole lot of defense being played here tonight on either team. The Knicks just hit more open looks than the Celtics did. This reminds me of a lot of the shitty Eastern Conference games we’ve seen this year. Why can’t the East ever just turn the corner?

I’m going to be really fucking pissed when the bench unit of Joakim Noah, KOQ, Lee, Jennings, and Holiday kicks ass for the rest of the season.

It seems like no one but, like, the Cavs and sort of the Raptors are any good in the East. How hard is it to have more than one good team?

That said, the Celtics will likely be adding Lonzo Ball to this team, so they have a bright future.

It takes a great deal of skill and intelligence to be so good at 5’9″ in the NBA.

Thomas is the only guy on their team who stands out to me. Horford might be a worse contract going forward than Noah’s.

Oh sure, the Celtics could easily come back. Just noting to fall behind 9 points at the half period is embarrassing and a sign that they weren’t taking this game seriously.

LOL. Now Melo decides to pass the ball and play into the ball movement philosophy. I swear, he trolls the hell out of this franchise.

Thomas is uncanny. Dude is a constant energy and has basketball ESP to boot.

Does it seem like the refs want to blow the whistle against us even before the foul?

Melo hates that whistle in his ear. Is that how we can get him to waive his NTC?

Thomas is uncanny. Dude is a constant energy and has basketball ESP to boot.

that’s funny ras – he does seem to usually know what’s gonna/should happen next…it’s gonna be interesting to see how many more years he can keep this up…who’s to say he’s even reached his ceiling (literally)…it’ll be interesting to see who boston drafts with that pick…

What a strange game. The Celtics have 2 turnovers. Billy taking his Enes comparisons seriously.

Also, Jaylen Brown looks funny out there. Can’t figure out why

I always enjoy these kinds of games where the bench players get starting minutes.

Willy might just be Enes Kanter, which would be a great find in the second round

Yes, its great that Willy is talented.

Now we need to lose this game and all the rest.

Plumlee creates space out there. I like him. He also is tenacious on defense. We should trade Oak.

76ers about to beat the Raptors and we’re farting away an opportunity to tank.

God, I hate this team.

Wow. No Knick starter with a net positive tonight. The bench has played great basketball in the midst of 25 goin 2011 on the C’s.

Yeah..this was definitely a revenge game

Too good to suck, too sucky to be good

Always bet on the worst possible outcome for the Knickerbockers.

Avery Bradley wouldn’t have made Al Horford put in in the basket.

Good win. It was nice seeing Derrick Rose torch a team and my guy Billy Kanter, I mean Hernangomez, had a great game.

What if, and think about this one, playing Courtney Lee with the bench makes him a better player? He has to be more assertive with the bench unit in the game and that could lead to an uptick in his assists like tonight. I’m going to be really mad at Jeff Hornacek if he fixes this team mid tank.

Rose with his once-every-ten-games-all-star-performance that make the optimists drooling for an extension.

Next game probably will be something like 5-16 with 3 assists and 5 turnovers.

I think you have to bench Lance Thomas forever. Kuzminskas has been better than him from day one and it’s evident. Kuz and Billy are unbelievable sometimes.

Rose joins Jamal Crawford & Gerald Wilkins as the third Knicks guard with at least 30 pts, 10 rebs & 5 assists in a game over last 30 years— Tommy Beer (@TommyBeer) January 19, 2017

Phil acquired Baker, Kuz, Plumlee and Willy for nothing. And I haven’t given up on NDour either.
Great work.

We’re actually a better team with Plumlee creating space and havoc for a few minutes out there. We should trade O’Quinn while he still has value.

Fun fact:

Knicks remain undefeated without Joakim Noah in the rotation, now 5-0 sans their $72 million man.— Kristian Winfield (@Krisplashed) January 19, 2017

any guesses if we see kp again in the next couple of weeks…

plumlee looks like he understands how to play basketball…it’s genetics…if effort is part of your dna…

yep, we get noah out of the starting lineup…team might have a chance to play a little better…

looks like we have one KOQ too many on the team…time to set willy free and see if he sinks or swims…what difference does it really make, him noah and plumlee are more than enough for the job…

I’m happy for those guys in the locker room…personally, I have no hard feelings against any of the guys on the roster – too me, they are all very “rootable” type guys, and coach too…

my grief is from how they play basketball/give effort at times…horny needs to do a better job coaching, players better job listening…

I can’t imagine any one assoicated with this team wants the heat from new york knick fans on their back…

@171
Avery Bradley would have put our guards in panic mode.
He plays A’CLASS D.
Not phony-shumpert-D but actual D.
That’s why i think he and Thomas are the Celts.Their other players are trash.

This C’s team is paper thin and can’t rebound for shit- I bet you could get the C’s own first round pick for KOQ. Maybe toss in Melo and grab the Nets’ pick too. The Melo part is wishful thinking but I’m not sure how much rookies are really going to help them. Thomas has to be at his peak right now- if I’m Ainge I’d be looking to see what guys in their prime right now those picks could get him.

The Celtics are way overrated. With all of their picks and “great” trades they’re not that good.

I’ve actually wanted to see Plumlee get more minutes since he signed. He’s a legitimate lunch pail guy..no matter the minutes. As a 7 foot 250 lb big, that is refreshing to see on this roster. And he actually is being productive as opposed to just being active in his limited minutes. He moves well without the ball, sets good hard screens, battles in the paint for rebounds, is decent with rim protection, and he seems to always make the right play. 10 minutes a night- especially with the possibility of Noah being hurt can’t hurt. Even with Noah healthy. But it’s a tough task finding minutes forvall of our bigs.

Also, having a guy who actually rolls hard to the hoop on pnr’s is kind of nice. Plumlee is at least a serviceable third big- you have to think Phil will be looking to move one of Noah (who probably gets you nothing in return but cap space if that) or KOQ.

sacramento let him go, phoenix totally got rid of the wrong guard…

not sure how isiah is in the locker room – but, wish the knicks had gotten him some how…

i’d be surprised if the celtics booted him, but, who knows…he’s like a sane nate robinson…

It’s crazy that we’re 5 and 0 when Noah doesn’t play. That’s statistical.

A lot of Rose’s drives and outside shots were set up by the space created from Plumlee picks tonight.

It’s crazy that we’re 5 and 0 when Noah doesn’t play. That’s statistical.

I would rather say we’re 5 and 0 when O’Quinn starts.

If we’re gonna be in the teens this draft then get another 1st rounder for KOQ. Let’s hope nothings wrong with Noah and KP.

he’s like a sane nate robinson…

I think he’s exactly like Nate- minus the insane athleticism for a guy that size. He was a so-called head case in Sacramento. The biggest difference is his last 2 coaches were able to harness all that fire and help him channel it in a more productive way.

somehow horny needs to figure out a way to only play melo-rose for 15 minutes or so a night…probably the first 7 or so minutes and the last 7 minutes…

Willy has gotten at least 20 minutes ten times this season. In 5 of them he’s gotten double digit rebounds.

Any win vs. the Celts is a great win. In Boston is even better.

Nice coaching by Hornacek. He’s not stroking egos out there.

Isiah Thomas had 39 points and only 2 assists tonight so obviously he’s not a good point guard.

Any win vs. the Celts is a great win.

Yeah, I’m fine with this win, just for that reason alone.

Nice coaching by Hornacek. He’s not stroking egos out there.

That is awesome about him. I can’t believe Jennings was giving him shit. Who the fuck are YOU, Jennings?!

Durant just put up a 40-point game on .980 TS%

.980 TS%

.980

what teh fuk

Best win in a while for the ‘Bockers. Weird game. I dunno how you win the turnover battle 14-3 and also outscore your opponent 27-15 at the free throw line and still figure out a way to lose, but the C’s did it.

Choppy waters for the tank but beating the Celtics was worth it. Can’t lose ’em all, and if you have to win one, it might as well be against those bastards. Up next: the Wizards, who have been playing well of late.

These things that stood out for me:
Defensive effort in the 4th quarter
Horford having a god-awful night on both ends
O’Quinn getting the quick hook
Plumlee looking like a solid bench player
Rose deadly from 15-18 feet with virtually no teardtops
Solid play on both ends from Holiday

Hey, we’re a Marcus Smart 3 from beating those a-holes twice!

“The punked us,” Isaiah Thomas said. “They were the harder playing team on both ends of the floor. We aren’t going to beat anybody the way they man handled us.”

From a Celtics site

reub: Phil acquired Baker, Kuz, Plumlee and Willy for nothing. And I haven’t given up on NDour either.
Great work.

Imagine what he could do if he decided to spend assets on young players. We’d be a team of Michael Jordan/Sabertooth Tiger hybrids.

Although to be fair, Hernangomez cost 2 2nd rounders, and Baker is only on a 1 year contract.

To his credit, Phil has been good at finding young talent. Jerian Grant was sort of a miss but late 1st round picks are very unpredictable. But KP, Hernangomez, and Kuzminskas are real finds.

His contract and trade negotiation have been just awful. He’s Isiah minus the sexual harrassment and trading of 1st round picks but plus being totally insufferable and un-accountable.

interesting thought experiment is where we would be if he had decided to get Jae Crowder rather than a late 2nd round pick in the Tyson Chandler trade. Crowder is just a really good player. But with Crowder we probably don’t have KP.

Great win last night. Someone on twitter posted the Knicks fan triangle of life which describes my fandom perfectly: https://twitter.com/ryanbucojr_/status/821872451466461187

For the life of me I can’t figure out why Willy doesn’t play more. He has the lowest (best) DRtg on the team other than Sasha and is one of only 4 players with a positive net rating overall. He isn’t obviously great on D but he’s a great offensive and defensive rebounder which is at least a start. And his post game is a legitimate go-to on any given offensive possession.

And by the way when do we start to believe that Marshall Plumlee might really be playable? He sets really hard screens, rolls hard to the basket, and probably has the best feet of any of our bigs in terms of PNR defense. He’s only played 47 minutes but has a net rating of +16.3.

If you ask me, Phil should look hard at trading KOQ. It’s not that he’s a bad player (he’s a good player), but we just have too many bigs. It’s a total waste to have Willy playing every 4th game. Between KP, Melo, Noah, Willy, and Plumlee, there are just a lot of bigs who can give good minutes.

@203 It makes sense if he’s trying to get KOQ’s trade value up. But yeah we should be looking to trade him by the deadline.

@203 – We had just the right number of bigs last night with KP and Noah both out. I agree that PJ has scored big with Kuz, KP and Willy.

ironically, you know which team KOQ would be a great fit for? The Celtics. They’re the 2nd worst rebounding team in the whole league. Could consider swapping KOQ for a couple of Boston’s backcourt guys, like Terry Rozier (whose offensive #s are not good but who is reportedly an excellent defender).

Yeah. I read a celtics blog about this game. Celtics fans are upset about their lack of rebounding and very underwhelmed about Horford. But trading for a center might cast a bad light on their Horford signing, so they might just prefer to try the draft.

And regarding bigs, the Knicks also have Ndour. He hssnt looked so bad in the few minutes he’s played, but he’s not much of a scorer ( at least, not yet).

Yes the Celtics are crying for rebounders and we should be there to help them if you know what I mean.

So maybe we’re onto something playing Melo at the 4 and Kuz at the 3 with Lee coming in off the bench and Plumlee breaking a few heads. And less Noah. Much, much less Noah.

And thank you Brian for leaving up this game thread. It should never be replaced.

Not sure why Plumlee went undrafted tbqh–he was about as good as his brothers in college and has the pedigree which coaches and GMs (irrationally) love. He seems playable.

We need to trade OQ and Lee

The Celtics aren’t incredible. But having the first pick in the draft this year could be helpful.

The Celtics really like Rozier–I don’t think they’d want to trade him.

This trade, plus Minnesota’s 2nd rounder or maybe the Grizz’s 2019 first could work:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=zcju5t6

Follow it up with this trade and we have a pretty solid stable of PGs, which is fitting, given that we’re likely to miss all the good guards in this draft:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=jtu4m2d

We might have to sweeten the pot with a 2nd or two (MN doesn’t have any seconds this year) for the latter trade.

This is a fantasy but we could then follow it up with this trade (we might have to take Matt Barnes instead of WCS but I think it’s still a good trade and Sacto might be dumb enough to do it):

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=jrpvlgc

Then we’d have Richardson/Baker at SG, Rubio/Jackson at point and WCS, with Sasha doing spot minutes for both guard positions.

If Phil made any one of the above 3 moves I’d be pretty happy.

Derrick Rose and Carmelo Anthony will be Knicks until 2020 the earliest. Do with that information what you may.

If Derrick Rose is resigned this team is done for

I don’t think Phil is that stupid. Maybe not even Dolan, especially after the AWOL debacle.

Between KP and Hernangomez the Knicks need another big man (either Harry Giles or Ivan Rabb) to add to our young group of big men. I’m hoping we can draft Ntilikina but I’m not getting my hopes up. If we miss on a PG, lets hope one of Tatum or Anunoby is available. Moving Noah and Lee to the second unit with Jennings is a pretty good idea but we’ll see how that works out moving forward. I was so sure we would be the tank machine but I’m really starting to think the Knicks might be able to produce more wins by rearranging the starters.

If I had to make a shortlist of players who would complement each other perfectly Isaiah Thomas and Carmelo would right at the top.

Just imagine the kind of synergy you could create if you used IT’s 61.70% ts% together with Melo’s scorching 53.6% to balance the floor.

It’s an idea whose time has come in my view.

Anunoby hurt his knee last night. Wonder how that’s gonna affect his draft position.

I loved how we actually played as a team last night. We looked hungry and young.

With the way Plumlee played last night it is very apparent that Phil should definitely look to shop KQ. He’s a good player on a great contract but with KP, Noah, Willie H and even Plumlee we have enough bigs even if one of them is injured. KQ is our best trade asset right now. He might be able to net us a later first rounder.

I know people want to tank. And I’m all for it. But at the very least we should make a KQ trade to try and get another pick (late first rounder) in this draft. If we ended up the 8th seed but made a KQ trade and had 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders, I think I’d be ok with that. I mean there’s a chance with 4 picks that Phil could trade them to move up, you know?

KQ and Jennings are the two I look to trade as I think both can get you something. KQ might get you a late first rounder from a good playoff team and Jennings might net you 2 second rounders or maybe a late first rounder as well. I don’t know but Phil should be on the phone. If KP and/or Noah continue to nurse injuries we can play Plumlee more. If Jennings is traded, it just means more Ron and Holiday. I’m ok with winning games if dudes like Ron, Plumlee, Holiday, Kuz and Willie are playing significant minutes in those wins.

Side note, it really is crazy how entitled some veterans are when it comes to starting or playing minutes even when they are struggling. I get that its a player’s league and veterans usually get the benefit of the doubt at the start of the season and even if they struggle a bit, but I don’t get the pouting or being upset at being put in the second unit when it might HELP the team. Its not always about you!

This is gonna be a controversial suggestion, especially coming from the person who christened the tanker SS Ntilikina. NBADraft has Lonzo, Markelle, and Frank all going in the top 4; it’s not likely we’re gonna get one of them. The SS Ntilikina needs to return to port and a new strategy put in place. Brace yourselves, here it is: I would engineer a deal where we get Rubio/Tyus Jones/Muhammad in exchange for our 2017 pick/KOQ/Lee. Note a 3rd team might have to be involved to get Thibs what he wants but that shouldn’t be a problem. If we could make it the 2018 pick instead of 2017 pick, that would be better.

Here’s a roster that’s got youth that we could all root for:
1: Rubio/Jones
2: Holiday/Baker
3: Melo/Lance/Kuz/Muhammad
4: KP/Melo
5: Willy/Noah/Plum

No. More. Trading. 1st. Round. Draft. Picks.

Those three guys are not worth a lottery pick in this year’s draft. All of Fultz, Ball, Ntilikina, Smith Jr, Tatum, Isaac, Rabb, Giles, Hartenstein, Monk, Fox, and Markennen have the potential to be All Stars. I’ll keep the chance at one of those guys instead of grabbing Rubio.

I loved how we actually played as a team last night. We looked hungry and young.

Gee, it’s almost as if it’s better and more fun to watch a hungry young team with room to grow than to watch a bunch of surly decline-phase veterans on preposterously bad contracts. If only there was some way to build an entire roster of such players!

No. More. Trading. 1st. Round. Draft. Picks.

Tyus Jones is only 20yo. He was rated 11th by Pelton in 2015 draft. He’s played well in his 2nd year. Rubio is 26yo. Muhammad is young also. That’s much better than hoping for “potential”. History suggests most of those guys you mentioned are gonna be busts.

I wonder if we can get a discount if we signed both holidays … and draft the third from ucla.
Those brothers are great ball players

I really liked what hotnacek did by playing the bench like they were the real core of the team.
If we can get that type of production consistently we could be decent.

If we can get that type of production consistently we could be decent.

Well that’s why they are bench players. They cant give that effort consistently. Hopefully our young guys can grow into that. I have loved Kuz and Billy from day one and i am thankful that they are Knicks. If the Knicks are trying to win games they need to run these lineups in my opinion.

Rose,Kuz,Melo, KP. At the two, i am conflicted about Baker. I don’t think hes good enough yet to be a starter, but i love Lee off of the bench. Maybe Lance Thomas at the 2?

As far as our glut of bigs, we need to give Noah every 3rd or 4th game off. In the games that he does play, either Billy/Plumlee should not play

He’s also only played around 813 minutes. His 2nd year sample is a grand total of 240 minutes. I’m not trading 2 good NBA players and a lottery pick for those 3 guys. For all of that I’d talk to Milwaukee about Khris Middleton or LA about Julius Randle. Kyle O’Quinn has been a better player than everybody we’d be getting back plus he’s on a great value deal for another year. But we have to cough him up AND a first round pick? I would hate that trade so much. In all honesty, I’d rather extend Derrick Rose and keep the 1st round pick than let trade a 1st round pick for Ricky Rubio. I hate trading draft picks.

Lee off the bench might save our season and destroy the tank. Bringing Noah, Hernangomez, Jennings, and Lee off the bench is unfair.

Loved watching Billy last night.

Would it surprise anyone if he ends up being better than KP? His WP/48 is already superior to KP’s and his per 36 numbers are quite good for a rook. He’s got some holes in his game, but I think this kid’s got something.

In all honesty, I’d rather extend Derrick Rose and keep the 1st round pick than let trade a 1st round pick for Ricky Rubio.

We’d be getting 26yo Rubio AND 20yo Tyus Jones who at least has shown something in those 220 minutes. And 24yo Muhammad still has some potential to be a rotation player. That’s better than a #10-15 pick in this draft. But like I said, we probably could do the trade keeping 2017 pick and including 2018 pick instead. Lee is 31yo and KOQ’s got only 1 more year left on his value contract. Thibs is shopping the Rubio/Muhammad combination so this is not some pie-in-the-sky deal that could never happen. We need to act!

I have the feeling that Horny would like to be a Jerry Sloan type of coach but hasn’t met yet a GM-ownership that lets him do just that. If you looked at his face right after the final buzzer (and we won in Boston with a gritty effort) you would have seen not a hint of joy. These Knicks are wearing on him.

Hernangomez is Enes Kanter. Both guys are post juggernauts and excellent rebounders, but neither can be relied on defensively. If Hernangomez can play defense he goes from Enes Kanter to Gasol Brother #3. That being said, I love bringing the idea of bringing Willy off the bench for 25-30 minutes a night going forward.

http://bkref.com/tiny/aiIlf

The only thing keeping Willy from being elite is his turnover rate. He’ll probably never be the passer Jokic is but he’s legitimately one turnover a game away from being comparable to two of the best bigs in pro basketball.

@239

Holiday is wildly inconsistent and not that good of a defender. He moves around a lot but doesn’t really move the needle. Baker is a way better defender.

According to my Celtics fan friend, Boston has had a bad habit this year of making scrubs look like stars. So I would still reserve judgement on Kuz and Billy until I see good play over a stretch of a few games.

It’s not just the 2017 pick we’re trading away. Courtney Lee and Kyle O’Quinn are good basketball players and have been for the majority of their pro careers. They’re valuable players. We shouldn’t have to move two of our 5 best assets along with a lottery pick for Rubio, Jones, and Muhammad. If that is the asking price we can do a lot better.

So I would still reserve judgement on Kuz and Billy until I see good play over a stretch of a few games.

Kuz is a valuable contributor anyway, we’re past half of the season and we know what kind of animal he is. Bad defender, intelligent player who gives a lot of effort and can shoot the ball (and sometimes score in traffic). Willy I don’t know. But as a 4th-3rd big he might be one the best in the league even right now. His real problem is that he turns the ball too much.

Enes Kanter’s WP/48, WS/48, and TS% are all very, very good. If Billy turned into that, I’d be ecstatic tbh.

Courtney Lee and Kyle O’Quinn are good basketball players and have been for the majority of their pro careers.

They’ve been AVERAGE players for the majority of their careers. Lee is 31yo and is not gonna get any better. KOQ is a wildcard. They’re rotation players but not starters on a good team. That’s why you’d have to include a draft pick. I’d prefer it to be the 2018 pick but I’d still do the trade for the 2017 pick.

That’s the player he’s most comparable to. Willy Hernangomez and Enes Kanter are practically clones. Once Willy stops turning the ball over and lowers that foul rate you’ve got your Enes Kanter at 5% of the market rate.

I’m sorry, bro; Kyle O’Quinn puts up double doubles in 20 minutes. I’m not trading him, one of the best 3 point shooters in the league, and a 1st round pick for Rubio, Jones, and Muhammad. It doesn’t make sense to me. O’Quinn and Lee alone could net us back a 1st round pick and some youth from a contender. You don’t trade 1st round picks if your team isn’t a contender.

I think Willy is better than Kanter on the defensive end

That’s not a compliment–Kanter is the most atrocious big defender I’ve ever seen, even worse than Bargs. His BPM is dead even because of that, and I think that more accurately represents his productivity than WS or WP or his TS–he’s closer to an average player than a .200 WS one.

Willy somehow has a break even DBPM and a solid enough DRTG. He may be better on D than the eye test suggests, probably because of his near-elite rebounding and his incredible knack for boxing out.

It doesn’t make sense to me. O’Quinn and Lee alone could net us back a 1st round pick and some youth from a contender. You don’t trade 1st round picks if your team isn’t a contender.

Look at it this way: we’d be getting an above average starter in Rubio, an above average backup in Jones, and an average backup in Muhammad versus 2 picks in the the 10-30 range presuming Lee and KOQ could net us a mid to late pick. Who’s gonna play the 1 for us next season in your scenario? Jrue or 31yo Hill are not coming here. The 3 top PGs will be off the draft board.

You don’t trade 1st round picks for old guys. We’d be getting 3 young guys who could be part of KP and Willy’s future.

I get the Willy/Kanter comparison but to be honest I think Willy is already a superior defender to Kanter. Enes has been a consistent net negative defensively by literally any measure you can come up with — DRtg, net rating, DBPM, RPM — and not just a little negative, but like worst 5 in the league defensively — in DRPM 5th worst this year of all centers, 2nd worst last year, dead last the year before that, 2nd worst the year before that.

get good player in the mid first?

Obviously you could but you’re more likely to get an average player or bust. Rubio and Jones are more of a sure thing and they’re both young enough to be part of KP and Willy’s prime. The risk/reward calculus favors the trade here.

Rubio is a pass first PG, which is good, but it’s because he can’t shoot and he can’t score! he is a career 37% shooter, 30% from 3! and, in his 5 years, he played 2 full seasons. In the other 3, he missed 40, 25 and 60 games!!!

I’m not trading a first rounder either. Part of the issue is that Rubio, Jones, and Muhammad just aren’t that good. They don’t move the needle. the other part is the theoretical potential of that 1st round pick. Literally the only thing that Phil has done well since being here is find young talent – and you want to give up that potential for guys who (other than Jones, who doesn’t move the needle either) have already pretty much shown they are just important parts of a bad team?

Rubio is an elite passer and defender. He’s always been a plus player in his career. And Tyus Jones is the type of guy who becomes the next Patty Mills. Tell me who’s showing up to be our PG. People just project greatness or promise onto all draft picks but there are plenty of Mudiays out there. In fact, most of them turn out that way.

short of trading kp, wily or the 1st rd pick we should do whatever we can to get rubio… his age and contract fits well with the others… kp and melo… if he makes progress and we don’t have alternatives we can extend him… if not.. we can let him go….

he’s not perfect but getting a solid pg at age 26 is not happening under any other scenario… and no… jrue holiday doesn’t qualify…

Honestly, it would be unusual to draft a player who turns out to be more productive than a combination of Ricky Rubio & Tyus Jones at the spot we’re likely to be drafting (say, 9th). On the other hand, whoever the Knicks draft will be cheaper and only take one roster spot. Rubio is, I dunno, something like the 8-10th best PG in the NBA. Our current starter is much worse than that, so it would move the needle for the Knicks. We’d probably be .500 if we had Rubio instead of Rose. It’s an interesting trade.

Lee is not an asset. We should be looking to dump his contract.

We don’t have to have a PG by next season, though. KP is 22 this year.

If Hernangomez can be better than Kanter (who is the reason we lost to OKC, btw) defensively while putting up similar numbers offensively you are talking about a max contract level player. If Hernangomez turns into that then I need Phil Jackson’s staff around forever because he’s the key to building a young team. I think what the PJ administration values more than anything else when it comes to prospect evaluation is hard work and basketball IQ. Jerian Grant, Ron Baker, Cleanthony Early, KP, Hernangomez, Chasson Randle all had those two things in common. I wish he would add athleticism to that list of things but I can’t argue with a formula that turned 2 first round picks and two second round picks into what has been the youth that we’ve had around.

what has Tyus Jones done to make him the next Patty Mills?

Rubio makes about $3M/yr more than Courtney Lee over the next two years. Both have proven to be very good defensive players. Rubio is an excellent passer who can’t shoot and is always hurt. Lee is a good shooter without an injury history.

I’m not saying Rubio isn’t an upgrade, but I think Min will want more for him than we are willing to trade. Why would they want KOQ? The only way Minn does the deal is if we give them the pick.

We still suck, and we are still stuck w/ Derrick Rose. Why not talk trade for Rubio in the off season?

One crappy win and the flowers of delusion begin to blossom. Dolan has the easiest job in the world.

They’ve been AVERAGE players for the majority of their careers. Lee is 31yo and is not gonna get any better. KOQ is a wildcard. They’re rotation players but not starters on a good team. That’s why you’d have to include a draft pick. I’d prefer it to be the 2018 pick but I’d still do the trade for the 2017 pick.

Just to be sure, people said that Harden was an excellent 6th man and was a waste of a max contract when he went to Houston.

The only season in which KOQ has been subpar has been 2014-15 when he was on the floor with Dedmon and Vucevic, two excellent rebounders. He also suffered a sprained ankle in the season’s first game, keeping him off the floor for about a month.

Despite that season, he averages about 20-25% more rebounds per 48 than the average frontcourt player, and has an above-average efficiency on roughly league-average volume. His turnovers are slightly high, but his assist, steal and block numbers are also above-average.

He is exactly the kind of “role player” who puts up excellent numbers and never gets credit because he has a limited game and often looks terrible out there. Yet still, tons of rebounds, good scoring, above-average in just about everything else. If he, Kuz and Hernangomez — all “role players — were off the team, the Knicks would be in Sixers territory.

Lee is an average player with a bad, not terrible contract. O’Quinn is a much better player and better value.

http://bballbreakdown.com/2016/12/29/for-timberwolves-ricky-rubio-is-no-longer-the-answer/

Interesting article and video about the Rubio/Jones deal. It seems like Minnesota wants to keep Jones, though, but Rubio is apparently harmful to what Minnesota wants to do offensively.

Speaking as a numbers guy, Rubio has not been better than O’Quinn this season and they’re the same age. Rubio is more expensive, too, and O’Quinn does everything you want your big man to be able to do. I can’t sign off on Rubio for O’Quinn and a 1st rounder. There’s too much value between O’Quinn and a 2017 1st round pick.

Kuz is pretty good, but he’s a guy I’d be looking to move. He’s 27 and he’s only under contract for one more season. He also doesn’t do much but score. He might actually be able to help a contender that needs a bit of scoring punch, so maybe you could snag a late first-rounder for him.

The name of the game here for the Knicks should be securing lots of years of team control of young players. If the Knicks end up with a pick in the 10-12 range and another in the 20-25 range because they were able to flip a decent value piece like O’Quinn or Kuz, I would be pretty happy. The way this draft is shaping up it’s looking like a good PF prospect should be available with that 10-12 pick and some good SG prospects will be around in the 20-25 range. Pick up a couple of young guys like that in the draft and maybe take a flyer on a draft-and-stash guy in the second round and that would be a step in the right direction.

I am not trading a 1st round pick for anyone.
O’Quinn, Kuz, Plum, KP and Willy are part of the future. We don’t have guards for next year. I would love both Holiday’s and would resign Justin to draw Jrue. I could live with them as my starting guards. Best move ever.

Kuz for a 1st would be nice but from who? LAC has persisting obligations to trade two other 1sts in the coming years. The soonest one they could move would be probably 2021. Same with the Cavs, soonest 1st is 2021. The Warriors could move their 2019 but don’t necessarily need more scoring, San Antonio doesn’t really seem to move their 1sts.

I don’t know who else would fancy themselves a Kuz away from contention.

@264 The Knicks would be very lucky to be in Sixers territory, my friend.

I would be happy to be in Sixers territory, too, but I’d rather get there with a bunch of minimum players than a capped-out 2011 All-Star Team. Kuz and O’Quinn are the players you dream for on minimum/low-vet salaries.

O’Quinn, Kuz, Plum, KP and Willy are part of the future.

O’Quinn has one more year on his deal at a cheap salary. Same with Kuz. After next season those guys are not going to be bargain players anymore. O’Quinn and Kuz should both be flipped if possible. You have to give something to get something. Nobody wants the rest of our crap.

We don’t need any of these crazy trades. We’re good now and heading towards greatness.

I’d be selling pretty high on Kyle O’Quinn right now. His contract runs out after his age 28 season and then you can have the inside track to sign him through his age 32 season. If we didn’t have Joakim Noah (who has been really good in fairness to him), KOQ would be borderline untouchable in my eyes. KOQ is worth at least a top 20 pick in this draft. The Knicks need to be giving him 30 minutes a night to pump his value up. There’s no reason in the world Minnesota should balk at O’Quinn for Rubio. We need to play him so his per game numbers can be more in line with his per 36 numbers.

Yeah, I’d be for holding on to O’Quinn if not for the whole “he’s only signed for one more year” thing, and since they’re likely not going to be a contender next year, either, better to get long term value from O’Quinn now and hell, maybe re-sign him in a year and a half when he opts out.

You can’t trade OQ for Rubio straight up, you’d need to add or LT even if you didn’t want to add Tyus Jones.

KOQ + LT for Jones + Rubio works. You can throw Jennings in there as well if they want a one year stop gap PG.

we would be including rose with koq in a deal i’m pretty sure since they want a stopgap pg… but i don’t think they’d want koq since they’ve already invested in a lot of bigs…

The only season in which KOQ has been subpar has been 2014-15…

I would agree that KOQ has been slightly above average but you really didn’t present quite a fair evaluation. He ranked 48 out of 62 in TO% in 2015-16 per Hollinger site and 50 out of 66 in TO% in 2014-15 which is terrible, not “slightly high”. His career .535% TS is below average for a center. He’s an excellent passer and offensive rebounder. He’s been an average defensive rebounder. The eye test says he’s not a guy you want to rely on in the final 8 minutes of a game because of his attention/focus issues.

I liked the signing when Phil made it. I like him today. I just think Willy will prove to be a better and more reliable center in the future plus KP will probably be playing minutes at the center which doesn’t leave much room for KOQ who will have to be paid in a year. So I would move him and if we could include him in a trade which would ensure above average production through 48 minutes at the PG position for the next 5 years, I’d do it.

One crappy win and the flowers of delusion begin to blossom.

like a summer rain in sunny southern california…drink it up…

just like we were not as good as winning 11 out of 15 in late november early december – we should not have been as bad as the last 15 games or so games we played…

if horny can figure out some rotational way of hiding the defensive deficiencies of rose, melo and jennings in particular – we should be around 42 or more wins instead of the 32 it looks like right now…

yeah, not very useful to our draft prospects, but, man does it suck losing all the time – worse than that watching little effort on d and selfish “hero” type basketball…

i get it, unless some way we get jrue (and, big if) – he stays healthy, good chance we’re in this same tough spot next year in regards to our point guard position, more than likely picking 16 through 20 it’s going to be really hard to find someone that would be able to contribute immediately or for a couple of years at pg…

still waiting for the day the horny moves melo to the bench – i swear you’ll all hear me scream with joy all the way back in new york…

Trading at least one of KOQ, Lee, and Jennings is essential. It would both help our own draft position via making us worse and presumably being in another pick, either in this draft or a future one. Obviously trade Rose/Noah/Melo (lol) if you can, but you can’t.

KOQ makes sense for the Celtics, Lee makes sense for Chicago, and Jennings makes sense for Cleveland. Make it happen.

if horny can figure out some rotational way of hiding the defensive deficiencies of rose, melo and jennings in particular – we should be around 42 or more wins instead of the 32 it looks like right now…

42 wins is going to require a 23-16 record the rest of the way. That’s .589 ball.

Not happening.

42 wins is going to require a 23-16 record the rest of the way. That’s .589 ball.

Not happening.

yeah well jk47…that’s just like – your opinion, man…

shit, you’re probably right…way to be all “mathy” and factual and stuff…no way are we doomed to another losing season…i just can’t take it anymore…

You guys want to trade O’Quinn AND a 1st for Rubio and do it now???

Maybe in the offseason once your first is 30th in this draft (if we’re in fantasy land let’s go all the way) but now??? When it has a greater than zero chance at winning the lottery? For Rubio and two average at best prospects? The insanity of this is beyond me. Even Isaiah wouldn’t do this.

We should untank this year because we’re much better than we’ve shown. Find a tanking team and offer them Plumlee or a #2 pick for one of their rotation players. We should act like winners and not losers.

Reub must be some kind of a polymath genius to be able to water ski and come up with these roster manipulations in the same afternoon

42 wins is going to require a 23-16 record the rest of the way. That’s .589 ball.

Not happening.

Eh. it depends on what happens with the rest of the month.

Washington
Phoenix
@Indiana
@Dallas
Charlotte
@Atlanta
@Washington
@Brooklyn

Not exactly murderers row here.

Kuz for a 1st would be nice but from who? LAC has persisting obligations to trade two other 1sts in the coming years. The soonest one they could move would be probably 2021. Same with the Cavs, soonest 1st is 2021. The Warriors could move their 2019 but don’t necessarily need more scoring, San Antonio doesn’t really seem to move their 1sts.

Aren’t far future picks arguably better since those teams are more likely to fall apart by then, giving us higher draft picks? If we got a pick from any of those guys this year it’s going to be low.

You guys want to trade O’Quinn AND a 1st for Rubio and do it now???

One guy. No one else.

Actually no one has proposed that trade. The deal is Lee/KOQ/2017 pick for Rubio/Jones/Muhammad. If we were talking the 2018 pick instead of the 2017 pick- which may be possible – this would be a no-brainer. Rubio is the same age as Jrue Holiday and a better player, an elite guard in terms of +/- over his career. Tyus Jones is only 20yo and was a 1st round pick. His stats so far in his second season in 240 minutes: .60 TS, .142 WS/48, 42% from 3. If y’all are gonna be happier with KOQ and the equivalent of Shump or Winslow in a year, I don’t know what to say.

Trading a 1st is only a no brainer when you’re a mid 50s win team and the guy you’re trading for isn’t Andrea Bargnani. Otherwise you should give serious pause to any such deals.

What happens if we make the trade and mid way through the 2018 season Melo waives his NTC (it won’t happen, but still)? Then we trade Melo and we have no high first round pick to go along with the trade. That’s terrible.

How many wins does this roster generate:

1) Rubio, Jones
2) Lee, Holiday
3) Melo, Anunoby
4) KP, Rabb
5) Noah, Hernangomez

Maybe 45? And then we’re capped out so the only way we can improve is with a 2nd round pick, and I don’t think we have second round picks next season. I would not be pleased with that. We have to keep that 1st round pick.

The only reason I think we should trade KOQ is because he IS a solid asset who could bring good value to us in trade but who is at a position of excess for us. We all agree KP’s best position is at the 5. We have Noah who is unmovable also at the 5. We have Willy who needs more minutes and also Carmelo who we all agree is better at the 4 than the 3. We have Plumlee who can fit in for a couple minutes here or there. Wouldn’t we rather GET a 1st round pick for an excess part?

And sure, if he’s that good, then it does help us stealth tank to trade him.

Frank is dead right. Obviously, it would be better to trade Noah, but we probably can’t, so why not trade him? We’ve got a number of good big men, and huge holes in our perimeter defense.

I like Rubio but think he’s got more mileage than the average 26 yr old as he’s been playing pro ball for 10 years. Since a good part of his value is on the defensive end I’d worry about any decline in athleticism. Still, if trading for him means that D Rose will absolutely not get resigned then he’s probably worth moving KOQ for.

I don’t know about you guys but I am hoping KP’s mri today shows a slight tear in his Achilles tendon necessitating 6 weeks in a boot. Hello tankaliciousness ….. Burn it all the way down ‘cept the youngins

I’m all for getting Rubio unless it costs us a pick.

Better defender and all around PG than Rose. Makes 14 million the next 2 seasons. That’s pretty reasonable in today’s market. We could trade him and draft a PG to back him up and then Rose and Jennings are let go and don’t have to be resigned. Except for CP3 the only PG I would like in FA is Holiday and he will cost more than 14 million…probably closer to 20 or more. Plus you’d have to have him for more than 2 years. Rubio would be a perfectly decent PG for us to have the next 2 seasons while we transition into the KP years and he would still be relatively young to resign in 2 years IF we wanted to do that.

It seems like a no brainer if he can be had without giving up a pick. IF it has to be Lee in the deal well then you basically replace Lee’s money with Rubios and you have no need for Rose or Jennings next year if you draft a PG.

@bobneptune,

…..yo ……wut? You’re hoping for an Achilles tear for literally the only player on our entire roster that matters? Might wanna check yourself on that one.

by the way I really like Kuzminskas on the starting unit with Melo and Rose. He’s a pretty adequate shooter (37.5% from 3p range so far) and is excellent at attacking when the defense is on the move, whether it’s attacking closeouts or cutting to the rim off someone else’s penetration or sneaking in for offensive rebounds. The 3 man lineup of Kuz+Melo+Rose has an ORtg of 115 and a DRtg of 108 in 113 minutes. That’s not that many minutes but it’s not so few either.

by the way lost in all the greatness that was the bench yesterday, here’s a small teeny tiny shout-out to Carmelo Anthony yesterday. He did not have a great game by any means, but it seemed to me that he moved the ball, didn’t force anything, and only had maybe 1-2 awful defensive lapses. After all the drama of the last few days, one could imagine him having a usage of 50 to show the world that he’s the man.

Would Rose+KOQ for Rubio work? Gives MIN a stopgap PG. We probably need to take back some salary filler I assume.

I don’t know about you guys but I am hoping KP’s mri today shows a slight tear in his Achilles tendon necessitating 6 weeks in a boot. Hello tankaliciousness ….. Burn it all the way down ‘cept the youngins

bookmarked for “dumbest post of the year,” and there will be many more

but I don’t know if this can be topped

“I hope the future franchise player suffers an Achilles tear”

the fuck did I just read

Since KP is 7’3″ I never want to hear about any sort of leg/foot injury. If he has an extra bad blister or accidentally steps on a lego I’ll lose my shit.

42 wins is going to require a 23-16 record the rest of the way. That’s .589 ball.

Not happening.

@281 – Well, I’ve posted before before the season started, I ran through every Knick game on the schedule and had them winning 43. Based on their current record, they are exactly 1 game behind that pace. So they are exactly on pace for 42 wins now.

42 wins would be the worst possible scenario, so yeah, that’s probably what they’ll end up with.

KP’s Game Minutes:

11/22-12/04……39, 34, 37, 39, 39, 40

12/9-12/17……..35, 39, 42, 35, 37

12/24-12/30….37, 42, 38

Then misses 4 games due to injury, returns and plays limited minutes for 4 games which brings us to the present situation.

The problem is that he played heavy minutes in concentrated periods, including consecutive days. That should never have happened. That’s on Phil.

why on earth would Minn trade us Rubio for any deal that didn’t include a pick? And why the hell would they want derrick rose?

You geniuses realize there is a large difference between a partial fiber tear a micro tear of the surrounding structures and a rupture, right?

There are gradations of injuries and I stipulated a minor one which would necessitate 6 weeks in a boot to completely heal, not surgery. Stop hyperventilating and read with comprehension.

Do any of the Greek Chorus here have any other idea how the necessary tear down from this shit show can ever happen if KP keeps them in sight of the playoffs? How Melo will ever ask for a trade?

Not Never….Wake up fellas….

The guy has been dealing with “soreness” meaning he already has some degree of fiber disruption in the tendon area. I’m just hoping they decide to give him extended rest and rehab after the mri to give the impetus for the necessary complete tear down.

I mean what do you guys think a sore Achilles actually is on a histological level? Yikes…. calm down. He already has a microscopic tear of some ajacent structure. Those interleukins and cytokines are there for a reason….

We can do any of the following:

Rose + KOQ for Rubio
Rose + KOQ for Rubio + Jones
Rose for Rubio
Noah for Rubio
Noah for Rubio + Jones
Noah + Jennings for Rubio + Jones
Lee + LT
Lee + Jennings
etc.
etc.

what Im saying is that we should definitely be trading for Rubio and Tyus (if we can nab them) because we have a lot of different trade permutations available. Minnesota is pretty much the ideal trade partner for us atm.

I’d be fine w Rubio + Jones for Rose + LT and a second–but Im not sure if that’s enough.

Rose + KOQ for Rubio
Rose + KOQ for Rubio + Jones
Rose for Rubio
Noah for Rubio
Noah for Rubio + Jones
Noah + Jennings for Rubio + Jones
Lee + LT
Lee + Jennings

Not a chance, but Thibs might like Lee/KOQ/Noah for Rubio/Pekovic/Cole. Or put it this way, he might do that trade if he doesn’t get any better offers.

Well dammit, bobnepune: now I have to apologize.

Bob,

I’m truly very s

I for one am a little nervous we have not heard anything about the MRIs yet. If it was nothing you figure we would have heard something already.

@308 – yes he was playing way too many minutes then. I was one of the many who were really worried about that back then…

bookmarked for “dumbest post of the year,” and there will be many more

but I don’t know if this can be topped

“I hope the future franchise player suffers an Achilles tear”

the fuck did I just read

If you are going to put quotes around what I wrote, please quote what I wrote, not that your mind read.

I actually wrote:

“…but I am hoping KP’s mri today shows a slight tear in his Achilles tendon necessitating 6 weeks in a boot.”

If you don’t have the reading comprehension or the intellectual honesty to use my actual quote (not some made up shit with quotes around it) and see the vast difference, then I don’t know what to tell you.

I am not wishing he tears his Achilles Tendon…. I am hoping the obvious injure he already has is shown by the MRI to necessitate a moderate time of immobilization for full recovery. That is the only scenario where Phil can go to Dolan and say, “We were 16-13 before our guy got hurt and now our best option is to break it down and build around KP for the long haul”. And… by the way… the tickets are already sold for the rest of the year and next year we can sell the fans on a healthy, more physically mature KP and 3 first round picks , 2 seconds with WH_G, KUZ , Holiday, Baker, Plumlee and whatever FA’s we can sign…..EZ game.

Playing KP on a “sore” tendon is asking for huge trouble to try to get the 8th seed.

Jowels… your post was completely bereft of intellectual honesty…. but totally unsurprising.

where’s KnicksfaninCelticland to either assuage our injury related concerns or to inflame them past the point where NSAIDs will do anything?

I for one am a little nervous we have not heard anything about the MRIs yet. If it was nothing you figure we would have heard something already.

You’re not the only one. We’ll probably here about it on Trump’s inauguration day. Suicide rate will spike in NYC. Embiid may end up healthier than KP. And KP probably wishes he didn’t tell 76ers not to draft him. Lonzo or Markelle or Ntilikina plus KP plus Embiid plus Noels plus cap galore.

This chart is getting old — it was created in 2008 — but it’s a good reference for expected outcomes of each pick in any draft.

http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

If the Knicks finish with the 12th worst record in the league and get the 12th pick, the chart says we have only a 5% chance of getting a star, a 10% chance of getting a bust, with the most likely outcome being a role player.

However, there are two caveats: 1) #12 picks have bizarrely underperformed relative to #13-15, so chalk that up to a sample size issue. So let’s say instead take the average performance of picks 12-15 and give us a 15% chance at a star, 20% chance at a solid player, 25% chance at a role player, and 15% chance at a bust.

Caveat 2) This draft is supposed to be deeper than most, so maybe you can increase those numbers slightly.

I mean what do you guys think a sore Achilles actually is on a histological level? Yikes…. calm down. He already has a microscopic tear of some ajacent structure. Those interleukins and cytokines are there for a reason….

howdy bob…could you say that all again in english please 🙂

yes, kp is one of our best (if not best) players already…however, we have enough other “talent” to play .500 ball the rest of the year – meaning we’re probably gonna win another 18 games or so, and finish with at least 36 wins…basically, we are not picking in the first 12 or so picks (they’ll probably all have 34 or less wins)…at that point of the draft – us, just like everyone else picking around and after us are going to have to do some really good homework (which we’ve demonstrated is possible in regards to doing scouting of undrafted talent) and hope to get lucky…

if by some miracle of miracles we’re forutunate/unfortunate to make the playoffs – i really hope kp is involved in that journey…although like everyone else – i sure would like to see his minutes shrink a bunch…

Speaking of the Sixers. What about Noel? He is an undeniable talent, but they probably cannot resign him with Embiid locking up the center position. They seem to want to make a run this year so let’s help them.

How about O’Quinn, Rose or Jennings and our 1st rounder top 10 protected?

Or if we want Rubio maybe helping with their cap situation will get it done. Rose and O’Quinn for Rubio and Pekovic.

Bob I get an unexplained headache every time I’m on this site.

Can you help me?

Wow, lots of deals today. My proposals:

1. Kyle O’Quinn and the Knicks #1 pick in 2018 to the Boston Celtics for Brooklyn’s 2017 #1 pick and whatever player(s) they want to send to make the salaries match. Yeah, Boston probably does not go for that, but it doesn’t hurt to ask. Yes, I am trading away a future #1 pick, but getting a better/sooner one (guaranteed high lottery pick this summer) back. How desperate are they for rebounding?? I want one of those elite PG prospects.

2. Derrick Rose and a #2 pick in this draft (whichever one Minny wants) to Minny for Rubio and whatever salary fodder/players make it work. They get out from under Rubio’s contract (they can just let Rose expire) and get a 2nd round pick in this good upcoming draft. Again, probably a no go, but ask… Rubio can’t shoot, but he can defend and distribute. He’s way better than Rose.

Bob’s actually talking sense about KP’s injury. He’s sayinhe hopes its minor and there’s a clear treatment path

I mean what do you guys think a sore Achilles actually is on a histological level? Yikes…. calm down. He already has a microscopic tear of some ajacent structure. Those interleukins and cytokines are there for a reason….

howdy bob…could you say that all again in english please 🙂

Histological refers to tissue on the microscopic level. KP must already have some microscopic fiber tear in the tendon proper or the surrounding tissues for him to have missed the 8 or so games over 3 weeks he has already missed. His pain is likely caused by either the tissue disruption itself or the inflammation mediated by the tissue proteins interleukins and/or cytokines.

You say they won’t drop to 12 or lower. They will if they are able to move Lee, Melo, Jennings, Rose and O’Quinn for picks and expiring worse players with KP being out. The floor is the limit!!!

And they have the perfect built in excuse…. we were 16-13 with my brilliant strategy until KP got hurt, now it is only right to allow these fine veteran players to find a playoff team to pursue their dreams!!!!

Philanthropist Phil !!!

Bob’s actually talking sense about KP’s injury. He’s sayinhe hopes its minor and there’s a clear treatment path

hell no bob ain’t making any sense…which really is not that big a deal, cuz, for the most part we are all emotionally tied in to this situation – which simply means – most of us aren’t making sense most of the time…

never ever wish for poor health for yourself or anyone else…unless you like really hate them or something – in which case, wish away…

Edit: do any of you really trust phil enough to make a trade that’ll benefit us long term…

a trade wherein the knicks come out on top – wow, would really love to see that happen someday…closet thing i can think in phil’s favor was TH2 for a 1st round pick…

Bob I get an unexplained headache every time I’m on this site.

Can you help me?

I would highly recommend a large portion of sardines, anchovies or salmon. They contain high levels of DHA and EPA which down regulate inflammatory cytokines more than 650mg of asprin !

never ever wish for poor health for yourself or anyone else…unless you like really hate them or something – in which case, wish away…

Holy moly… I am NOT WISHING ILL HEALTH ON KP. he already has a degree of ill health. I am wishing the MRI gives them an excuse to shut him down to do a proper rebuild that 95% here believe is the best long term course.

I do not have a voodoo doll of KP here sticking needles in his calf!

I’m all for trying to get our hands on Rubio and/or Tyus, but absolutely cannot endorse trading our first rounder. I get the logic, Rubio is likely to be better than whoever we pick and that’s true regardless of where we pick. He’s also a lot more expensive, though, and only controlled for two more years. It’s not like he’d make us so good that the pick would lose serious value. It’d probably be 17th or so.

I’d trade any player or combination of players (non-Porzingis division) for him, but no picks.

I’d rather go for holiday in the offseason… resign Justin first and get him to recruit jrue

I’d rather go for holiday in the offseason… resign Justin first and get him to recruit jrue

Hopefully they aren’t like Aaron Rogers and his brothers…

I do have a voodoo doll of KP here sticking needles in his calf!

well folks, we now know who to blame the whole season on – seems ‘ol bob here has got a closet full of knick player (and phil) dolls that he regularly is doing some weird voodoo ritual on…

thank goodness that mystery is solved – i knew there was some rational explanation for all our woes this year…

What’s the obsession with jrue? He’s a mediocre player who’s getting near max money. Rubio is way better.

Hard pass.

What’s the obsession with jrue? He’s a mediocre player who’s getting near max money. Rubio is way better.

Hard pass.

+1

Shit………

Good news for Knicks: MRI confirmed no structural damage to Kristaps Porzingis’ Achilles. Porzingis is available against Washington tonight. Joakim Noah’s MRI revealed a sprained ankle and he is OUT against Washington.
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Porzingis in and Noah out is a double whammy for the tank.

My sentiments precisely… hence the scatological exclamation 🙁

thank goodness that mystery is solved – i knew there was some rational explanation for all our woes this year…

Look no further than Cronin’s deadly optimism…

@337

Silky, you may be right about Jrue. His numbers are worse than I thought, and his teams don’t have a great track record either. When you add in the awful health record, I’d take Rubio too.

Of course it all depends on what you have to give up to get him.

Shit………

Good news for Knicks: MRI confirmed no structural damage to Kristaps Porzingis’ Achilles. Porzingis is available against Washington tonight. Joakim Noah’s MRI revealed a sprained ankle and he is OUT against Washington.
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Yes! The untank is in full force!! We can make the playoffs as the team gels and make some post season noise while still building for the future. We can have it all.

For you guys already looking to next year remember that Teodosic should be available and at a fraction of the price.

For you guys already looking to next year remember that Teodosic should be available and at a fraction of the price.

They aren’t just one player away…. more like 6-7

Bob please don’t make my headache any worse. Now where did I put those sardines?

however, we have enough other “talent” to play .500 ball the rest of the year – meaning we’re probably gonna win another 18 games or so, and finish with at least 36 wins…basically,

The Knicks have 19 wins already and these are the only teams that have 15 or fewer wins : Nets, Heat, Suns, Lakers, Mavs, and Wolves

They have only played 7 of the possible 15 match-ups with these teams, and 8 of 19 if you include the surging 14 win Sixers. Those are 11 VERY winnable games for the Knicks. They have some wins coming whether we want them or not.

I guess that we’re looking at a starting lineup of KP-Melo-Kuz-Baker-Rose tonight.
That should be interesting.

@349 They are 6-2 against these teams so far, meaning if they keep that pace up against these teams they will go 14-5…… 8 more wins right there

no question in my mind – kuz is ready for prime time…maybe not the most athletic guy, and, even though he’s an nba rook – with his basketball iq and his effort he looks like he belongs out on the court…and, oh my god, he actually cuts to the basket – who’d have thought that was even legal for a knicks player to do…

it’ll be interesting to see if this particular starting five gets a chance to run out there a few times together…

what i’m really and truly hoping – is that at around the 6 minute mark or so, either rose or melo heads off the court…somehow we have to minimize them playing together…melo doesn’t look that physically able to get back on d, and rose doesn’t seem like he wants to anything coming close to his knees when he tries to get around screens…

plumlee, plumlee, plumlee…as much as i hate the celtics, not so crazy about the bullets either…

Edit: no kp tonight…no worries – more plumlee please…

No KP? No problem!

Lots of Willy and Plumlee!

Oh, yeah, and some of OQ to aid his trade value.

just saw it on espn knicks page…

hmmmmm, maybe we should just keep riding this thread until the knicks lose again…which, could very well be tonight – but, i’m gonna guess we beat the bullets tonight…

Now where did I put those sardines?

King Oscar is the nuts… $2.59 for a 4.25 oz tin in olive oil… 1,500mg Omega 3 fatty acids per tin

Which idiot is allowing KP to play tonight??
What possible reason do we have for increasing, even by a small amount, the chance he’ll suffer a career-altering injury?
Fully-developed, a KP without the wheels is basically a slightly-above average center, instead of the Unicorn.

So Melo won’t be an all-star starter for the first time since 2009.

His value is fading fast this year.

I mean what do you guys think a sore Achilles actually is on a histological level? Yikes…. calm down. He already has a microscopic tear of some ajacent structure. Those interleukins and cytokines are there for a reason….

Not necessarily. Most Achilles injuries I have seen over the past 37 years are not imflamed. There is no actual clinical inflammation in the tendon nor are inflammatory cells found in biopsy samples. Hence, tendonitis is a misnomer. Tendonosis is probably the correct diagnosis just by the numbers (since I cannot examine the patient nor see the actual MRI films. It is due to chronic degenerative changes in the tendon from repetitive microtrauma and tissue overload. Any “swelling” at the tendon is actually disorganized inferior collagen (the substrate used to repair the tendon)

Not necessarily. Most Achilles injuries I have seen over the past 37 years are not imflamed. There is no actual clinical inflammation in the tendon nor are inflammatory cells found in biopsy samples. Hence, tendonitis is a misnomer. Tendonosis is probably the correct diagnosis just by the numbers (since I cannot examine the patient nor see the actual MRI films. It is due to chronic degenerative changes in the tendon from repetitive microtrauma and tissue overload. Any “swelling” at the tendon is actually disorganized inferior collagen (the substrate used to repair the tendon)

Hi Doc,

If there isn’t tissue disruption (micro tear) or inflammatory mediators, where is the symptom (painP coming from? What is the definition/example of a chronic degenerative change?

@KFICL…yea – doc is back!!!

so, reading what you wrote – sure sounds like kp averaging 34.1 minutes per game isn’t such a great thing…hopefully a light goes on for horny and makes an effort to keep him in the 25 to 30 minute per game range…

i have no idea if that will have any actual effect on his chances for re-aggravating this particular injury or lessen his chances for any other leg type injuries – but, it doesn’t seem like it would hurt; and, it’s not like we’re exactly battling for home court advantage in the playoffs or anything…

where’s KnicksfaninCelticland to either assuage our injury related concerns or to inflame them past the point where NSAIDs will do anything?

So that’s why my ears were burning bringing me to KB tonight. As I just stated. It is probably early tendinosis rather than tendinitis. The good news: extremely low risk of rupture at this time. Bad news: if the medical staff does not find the cause of the tendon overload and address the issue(s), it will become chronic.

Hi Doc,

If there isn’t tissue disruption (micro tear) or inflammatory mediators, where is the symptom (painP coming from? What is the definition/example of a chronic degenerative change?

The pain is probably coming from nerves/stretch receptors within the musculotendinious unit. I have seen cases were an adhesion and/or spasmotic band is released way up in the head of the gastocnemius and all pain is miraculously gone. The degenerative changes are from “bad” collagen. If you are interested, check out tendinosis.org. There is a lot of good info there. Bad collagen can start with any tendon overload over a period of time or something as simple and sedentary as some people taking a quinolone antibiotic (e.g. Cipro, Levaquin). The side effects of these antibiotics can range from nothing to rupture a tendon in a day’s time.

so, reading what you wrote – sure sounds like kp averaging 34.1 minutes per game isn’t such a great thing…hopefully a light goes on for horny and makes an effort to keep him in the 25 to 30 minute per game range…

His minutes can play a role. Changes to his role on defense and offense could be a possiblity. The Achilles at peak stress in certain situations is taking up 12 times body weight. Then again it could be his shoes…or an adhesion….or spasmotic bands in the muscle…or loss of range of motion….or an antibiotic…or a compensation for anther problem…or a host of other things. Myopic examination leads to poorer outcomes.

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