Knicks Morning News (2017.01.17)

  • [ESPN] Tuesday’s Knicks News: Lee explains ‘Dumb and Dumber’ post
    (Tuesday, January 17, 2017 4:45:23 AM)

    Tuesday’s Knicks News: Lee explains ‘Dumb and Dumber’ post

  • [ESPN] Melo on his loyalty to Knicks: ‘I’ve proven that’
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 8:26:11 PM)

    Melo on his loyalty to Knicks: ‘I’ve proven that’

  • [NY Newsday] Jeff Hornacek happy to let Knicks make each other accountable
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 10:41:09 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek’s honest assessments of his team paint a negative picture of their mental state and willingness to work through their problems.

  • [NY Newsday] Jeff Hornacek’s Knicks lineup change: Ron Baker in for Courtney Lee
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 10:17:40 PM)

    The Knicks had lost 10 of 12 and four of their last five when they arrived at Monday’s game against Atlanta at the Garden. It was a situation that called for a change, Jeff Hornacek said. So the coach put Ron Baker in the starting five and moved Courtney Lee to the bench.

  • [NY Newsday] Carmelo Anthony: I haven’t spoken to Phil Jackson
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 8:04:39 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony said he hasn’t spoken to Knicks president Phil Jackson or anyone in the front office about his future in recent days, and he reiterated that he wants to remain with the team.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks drop one-point heartbreaker to Hawks
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 7:54:15 PM)

    The Knicks had the ball in the waning seconds and three shots to win a game they absolutely needed. But when things are going bad, nothing falls for you.

  • [NYTimes] Hawks 108, Knicks 107: Knicks Juggle Starting Lineup, but the Result Is Familiar
    (Tuesday, January 17, 2017 1:47:35 AM)

    With Kristaps Porzingis already out, Coach Jeff Hornacek started Ron Baker, an undrafted rookie, and benched Courtney Lee.

  • [NYTimes] Desired as Cornerstone, an Injured Jeremy Lin Is Watching the Nets Crumble
    (Tuesday, January 17, 2017 2:00:24 AM)

    Lin was expected to be the team’s starting point guard after signing as a free agent last summer. But he has played only 12 games because of hamstring troubles.

  • [NYTimes] Warriors 126, Cavaliers 91: Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson Lead Warriors’ Rout of Cavaliers
    (Tuesday, January 17, 2017 5:01:32 AM)

    Curry scored 20 points and had a season-best 11 assists, Thompson finished with 26 points, and Golden State rolled at Oracle Arena.

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: In Warriors’ Rout of Cavaliers, a Big Dose of Catharsis
    (Tuesday, January 17, 2017 10:10:46 AM)

    Monday’s 126-91 victory by the Warriors provided a psychological lift after last season’s loss in the finals.

  • [NYTimes] The Cavs, the Warriors and the Five Best N.B.A. Games This Week
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 3:54:26 PM)

    The Warriors will face the Cavaliers on Monday night in a rematch of their one-point loss on Christmas, then face the Thunder on Wednesday.

  • [NYDN] Knicks suffer another heartbreaker with 108-107 loss to Hawks
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 5:34:14 PM)

    Another day, another heartbreaking loss for the Knicks.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo Anthony refers to Knicks teammate Ron Baker as ‘Burgundy’
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 3:19:56 PM)

    At least the Knicks still have their humor.

  • [NYDN] Courtney Lee to bench, Ron Baker starts in Knicks linuep shakeup
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 1:36:16 PM)

    Courtney Lee, the $50 million signing, was supplanted in the lineup by an undrafted rookie.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo Anthony says he hasn’t discussed future with Knicks brass
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 1:14:19 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony voiced his frustration to the media, but he hasn’t spoken to management.

  • [NYPost] Knicks sub almost suffers same injury as guy he replaced
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 6:24:10 PM)

    Lance Thomas needs a mask, and rookie Mindaugas Kuzminskas could have used one in the Knicks’ 108-107 loss to the Hawks on MLK Day at the Garden. Thomas suffered an orbital fracture Sunday in Toronto after getting elbowed in the face by Jonas Valanciunas early in the second half. Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek said he…

  • [NYPost] Phil Jackson’s closed mouth is asking for a Knicks implosion
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 5:16:35 PM)

    The way things have been going lately for the Knicks, it shouldn’t have been surprising Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony and Joakim Noah missed potential game-winning shots in the final seconds from point-blank range Monday afternoon at the Garden. The misfires resulted in the Hawks claiming a 108-107 victory, the Knicks’ 11th loss in their last…

  • [NYPost] Knicks teammates intervene to keep Derrick Rose from no-call fine
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 3:00:47 PM)

    With the Hawks up one, Derrick Rose drove to the basket on the Knicks’ final offensive sequence of the game. If you wore orange and blue and white, you felt there was contact that was not called. Rose was asked about the possible non-call. Teammates advised against answering. “Don’t do it,” a voice from the…

  • [NYPost] Courtney Lee posts revealing ‘Dumb and Dumber’ pics after benching
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 2:25:58 PM)

    Courtney Lee insisted it was a matter of mood, not a slap at any of his bosses. After posting — and quickly deleting — pictures from the movie “Dumb and Dumber” and its prequel on his Instagram account Monday, Lee went back and explained what the whole situation meant. “Posted a pic of dumb n…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo has heard a bizarre silence from Knicks brass
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 2:03:53 PM)

    After voicing his displeasure with a damning article penned by a Phil Jackson confidant, Carmelo Anthony said Monday he heard only silence from the Zen Master and general manager Steve Mills. Anthony indicated he would sooner be traded than play for the Knicks if Jackson doesn’t want him here. The article, written by Charley Rosen…

  • [NYPost] How Knicks’ Ron Baker started answering to ‘Ron Burgundy’
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 12:50:23 PM)

    There actually was a lighthearted, fun moment for the Knicks during their most recent loss. During an interview at halftime – when yes, the Knicks led – Carmelo Anthony was asked about the Knicks’ lineup change that included undrafted rookie Ron Baker starting for Courtney Lee. Anthony referred to Baker as “Ron Burgundy.” “Courtney was…

  • [NYPost] Brandon Jennings rants about Hornacek’s changes as Knicks fall apart
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 10:46:12 AM)

    Brandon Jennings was miffed, clearly not a fan of the Ron Baker Experiment, which ultimately failed as the Knicks dropped yet another heartbreaker, 108-107, to the Hawks in a Martin Luther King Day matinee at the Garden. With Baker making his first start at shooting guard but on the bench down the stretch, Derrick Rose…

  • [NYPost] Clyde Frazier: Carmelo ‘should keep mouth shut’ on Jackson
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 9:33:34 AM)

    Carmelo Anthony should stop stumbling and bumbling. Knicks Hall of Famer and MSG Network analyst Walt “Clyde” Frazier chastised Anthony for responding to a column in which Phil Jackson confidant Charley Rosen wrote, “The only sure thing is that Carmelo Anthony has outlived his usefulness in New York.” It was speculated Jackson was using Rosen…

  • [NYPost] Jeff Hornacek pulls stunning shakeup with Ron Baker start
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 7:45:21 AM)

    Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek finally made good on his threat of shaking up the starting lineup as he stunningly benched shooting guard Courtney Lee for undrafted rookie Ron Baker for Monday’s Martin Luther King Day matinee against Atlanta. Baker has helped engineer fourth-quarter comebacks recently, but some — including Sunday’s in Toronto — have come…

  • [SNY Knicks] Anthony reiterates will to remain a Knick despite not talking w/ ownership
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 7:42:41 PM)

    Forward Carmelo Anthony reiterated his desire to remain a New York Knick one day after he addressed the rumor that team president Phil Jackson might not want him to be a Knick anymore.

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose, Anthony miss shots in final seconds as Knicks fall to Hawks 108-107
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 3:31:37 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony and Derrick Rose both missed opportunities to secure the lead in the final seconds of the game as the Knicks fell to the Hawks 108-107.

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose, Hornacek discussed Knicks’ defensive effort
    (Monday, January 16, 2017 9:50:59 AM)

    Derrick Rose approached Jeff Hornacek after practice Saturday to encourage the coach to be harder on his team regarding their defensive effort. When Rose made news of this meeting public, Hornacek was defensive in the nature of the conversation between the two.

  • 274 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.01.17)”

    WTF? First #25 throws the coach under the bus, and now Jennings is throwing the coach under the bus AND throwing teammates under the bus in-game? I don’t like either thing. Anyone else notice the way Jennings acted when Kuz made a mistake and how he almost got completely frozen out? But all Jennings had to do was tap his own chest and say “my bad” when he made a mistake. A good test of chemistry and heart is usuallywhen adversity comes-a-knockin. Our Knicks aren’t handling it well at all.

    Recently I watched a swedish movie where a young family is having a skiing brake lunch high up in the french alps. They sit on a wonderful terrace with white mountaintops around them. At some moment there is a sound of explosion in the distance and the avalanche on the opp side is apparently triggered in a controled fashion. The avalanche is huge and the people on the terrace get a little ave-ish with ooohs and aaah(clyde style)…as it comes bigger and bigger father calms his children and wife that it’s controlled and that the triggers now what they are doing ect…
    And in the moment it is clear the avalanche is going to hit the terrace in a bizarre manner father runs away like crayzy pushing people to clear his way to safety of course leaving his family behind at the table.
    Seconds later it turns out that it was just snowy fog that hit the terrace.No harm done other than people being in shock but quickly returning to their vines and dines.
    And then our hero returns to his family….like nothing was wrong.
    One has to be greatful to Adversity.It blows the masks away.

    I’m with Brian on this one, I’m happy the stealth tanks are still roling but Im so sure this team will fuck this up somehow and draft right after Ntilikina and Anunoby are off the board

    this can still be disastrous

    anyway good loss yesterday and the rats are showing up more and more, exposing Phils lack of fucks given

    Lee’s Instagram post was silly if not racist, but I think he got thrown under the bus. His postgame comments after Toronto were pretty critical of the effort. Later they asked Melo about the comments and he kept his composure but seemed unthrilled. It’s almost like both Lee and Rose’s general comments are like they walked into a crazy house when they came to the team. Anyway, this team seems to be like the Marbury Crawford et. al. teams all over again

    So of course this sad season has come down to a power struggle between Phil and Carmelo Anthony. I think we probably know how this ends — which is that Carmelo is the only one who has total control of the situation. He has a full NTC and 2 more years on his contract whereas Phil does not. And honestly, I actually sort of hope Carmelo wins this tug of war. Phil and his mind games work when he’s the coach and it’s just in the locker room and his actual coaching skill matters. But to be President of the Knicks and de facto GM and to be totally non-accountable and weird? That can’t help but infect the entire franchise– a franchise that doesn’t need this at all.

    It has become extraordinarily clear to me that while players matter a LOT, the person constructing the roster and negotiating the contracts/trades matters a lot more. Carmelo is still a really good (but declining) player whereas Phil Jackson has been pretty much an abject failure as an executive.

    I really hope Dolan steps in and dumps Phil before the trade deadline. Trade Courtney “dumb and dumber” Lee since he is a finishing piece for a contending team as opposed to a team like this. You could probably fashion some sort of trade for a protected first (or at least multiple high 2nds) with teams that need shooting like Memphis, Milwaukee, or some such team. Brandon Jennings might bring a 2nd round pick if sent to a team like Cleveland that needs a backup PG that can play 10 minutes/game.

    I’ve come to terms with the fact that Melo is not going to leave — and that’s ok. Yes, I’d rather get a nice package for him, but I’m not sure what we could actually get back for him that wouldn’t hamstring us worse for the future. On top of that, if Melo leaves it seems likely that Phil will survive this, and that is not good for the franchise.

    I’m also worried that we’ll mess up the tank. Porzingis coming back healthy might get us into Ivan Rabb/Robert Williams territory. I like the both but top 11-12 is where we should be aiming for.

    Melo vs. Phil?
    Phil wins that one every time.

    I think you’ll be surprised. Melo has always had Dolan’s ear, and has the NTC.
    Phil has 11+2 rings but just a trail of losses and dysfunction as an exec.

    I hope our draft positioning and Clarence Gaines win this latest bout of Melo v. Phil.

    Melo can’t be fired, Phil can. That alone gives Melo the advantage.

    Plus, Dolan seems to legitimately love Melo. Melo will still be a Knick long after we’re all dead.

    Brandon Jennings is totally right. The whole problem w/ this team is that coach started Ron Baker for Lee one game.

    I wish we had given Randle a roster spot so we would be guard-heavy. Jennings seems like a contract we could move for something at the deadline.

    I mean, there’s bound to be at least one dleaguer that won’t do stupid shit like Jennings seems to want to do now, so just dump him anyway.

    he started kinda promising and focusing on passing but now we’re having the old Brandon Jennings experience with the broken jumper and open mouth

    Yeah Melo and CAA will win any internal battle. But there’s still some hope that Melo might want to be traded to Clippers. There’s an obvious deal out there of Melo for Crawford/Rivers/2021 1st round pick (note Crawford contract could be dropped in final year). We might even be able to get a 2023 pick if it’s protected and we somehow throw in Jennings. Clippers have to do that deal and before the deadline (not the summer) to optimize their Melo window. The owner will make sure it happens even if Doc balks because he doesn’t want to trade his son.

    If Melo is traded, the team might consider selling off other players. Pelton had Delon Wright and Tyus Jones ranked 10 and 11 in the 2015 draft. Toronto needs to be like Pistons chip team and have deep roster of 2-way players. Perhaps we could get Wright in exchange for Lee/Holiday since they got Lowry and Cory? Also I’m not convinced Thibs (if he strikes out on Taj or Lopez) wouldn’t take Noah/Kuz/maybe KOQ? for Jones plus Pek (and maybe Cole if they want to dump his contract). And finally maybe KOQ for Hezonja? Not sure I’d do it but it is intriguing.

    The SS Ntikilina faces the most treacherous waters in the next nine games. The trade deadline is March 1 and there 18 games until then. NYK face Cavs twice, Spurs, Clippers, Raptors in 6 of the last 9 games before deadline. But the next 9 games should be very competitive. If we go 4-5 and then 3-6, we’d be 10 games under .500 so Melo wanting out and a sell off could be possible. Let’s hope the God of the oceans Kumugwe will guide us to the deadline.

    I can understand Lee’s frustration in the sense that he’s not the one making big mental or effort mistakes on defense (Rose/Melo/Jennings) and he probably has some bias against a nobody who looks like the long lost fourth Hanson brother taking his starting spot.

    On the other hand, Lee has kinda sucked. He might be the lowest impact player in the NBA. No other player with real minutes this year has less than 5/10/14 in TRB%/AST%/USG% like Lee, which smells a lot like like last year’s Afflalo. And Lee has something else in common with Afflalo. His defensive reputation is way better than his Knick defensive product (in both cases it is probably only partly being overrated and partly aging); he doesn’t wander around aimlessly, miss rotations or fail to hsutle back, but no way has this guy been a plus defender for us; I would actually say below average: zero disruptive impact and has a ton of trouble keeping guys in front. Since both our PGs are really bad and Baker’s not really a PG, Horny’s only smart option if he wants to shake up our terrible back court defense is to sit Lee.

    Every other trade machine fantasy seems impossible for us, but we should definitely trade Lee ASAP, because he might bring a little something back and his out year contract when he will almost surely be replacement level makes no sense for this team.

    Rose and Jennings both play a dumb, selfish, lazy brand of basketball. They’re the two worst players in the rotation, hands down.

    They’re great at tankball, though. Their horrendous defense generates many losses, and their inefficient chucking also helps the effort greatly.

    @14 The deadline is the 23rd of February.

    @16 Jennings is great if we go full blown tank. He may be the worst P&R defender I’ve ever seen.

    I would love to steal Tyus Jones from the Wolves, he looks very solid and is a very good shooter

    The deadline is the 23rd of February.

    You’re right, the waiver deadline is March 1. I don’t think it changes what I wrote since we play Raptors and 76ers after the 23rd.

    I would love to steal Tyus Jones from the Wolves, he looks very solid and is a very good shooter

    Tyus isn’t getting any playing time since he’s after Rubio/Dunn. Delon Wright’s injured but he’ll be after Lowry (who they’ll re-sign) and Cory (3 years left on deal). So I think there’s some incentive to trade these players; the question then is whether they get better offers that fit their teams’ needs from others.

    This team is too good to tank. I don’t understand how true fans can root against their own team.
    I’ll say it again.
    It’s perverse.

    This team is too good to tank. I don’t understand how true fans can root against their own team.

    They’re not even trying to tank and they’re tanking. This roster has tanking in its blood. They just need to keep “trying” to win and the tank will take care of itself. They don’t have to tank on purpose, it just happens naturally. Melo and Rose need to keep carrying the offense, it’s sinking like a stone. Down to #17 overall now. On defense they need to just stick to the “never fight through a screen” and “everybody rotate in a confused manner” strategy that has led the defense to its strong #25 ranking. Defensively their tank game is sound.

    When you’re below average on both sides of the ball, you’re gonna lose a lot more than you win. If you made this team the opposite of itself it would be the #14 offense and the #6 defense, and it would be on pace to win around 48-50 games. That would be fun if that was the team we had. But unfortunately we have the opposite of that team. And so we tank on.

    If we tank by accident it wouldn’t be as bad, I guess. At least it wouldn’t be our fault.

    If you’re the 11th seed in the conference, and are now getting beat by teams ‘behind’ you, you have to be realistic about what your expectations should be and how to take advantage of the situation. You either try really hard to maybe get into the playoffs (and what does that do for ya with this crew that mostly won’t return), or draft better.

    If we tank by accident it wouldn’t be as bad, I guess. At least it wouldn’t be our fault.

    I feel exactly the opposite.

    Worth nothing, the last Phil-Melo talk lasted just a few moments. That was in Dec after Jackson criticized Melo in a CBS Sports interview— Ramona Shelburne (@ramonashelburne) January 17, 2017

    Regarding Melo’s trade kicker, it is spread out over the rest of the contract (excluding the player option year), up to the max salary for a 10+ year player. So, I’m pretty sure that would make Melo a super max guy next season (~$35mil) for anyone who trades for him. The player option year would go back down to $27mil, though.

    So… Melo would like, really really make money on a trade?

    Given what we know about Melo and his motivations, I like it. Does the Knicks paying the extra money impact our cap?

    Per Coon’s website, but I always get this wrong:

    1. Since Melo’s contract was pre-new CBA, the receiving team has to pay the kicker.

    2. It is for 15% of the rest of the contract (including prorated the rest of the season the trade is made), not to exceed his max.

    3. The annoying thing is, the receiving team has to account in its team salary the incoming player’s salary and kicker, including the rest of the season in which the trade was made.

    4. I’m unsure how much of the ETO year the receiving team pays.

    I find it very hard to believe Melo will actually waive that NTC. We’ll see how this plays out as Melo and PJ will be meeting soon.

    @31- agree, just makes for good academic discussion. I still say Phil’s out before Melo.

    Melo makes more for a trade to a contender?

    Good…good…

    Mr. Microsoft Jr can easily afford him…..

    No. No tanking. We’ve got too much talent. Maybe just add a defensive presence at PG. GP2?

    I would like to trade Melo though. He is not a good basketball player despite his points.

    Question.

    If this was a team full of young players with KP (healthy) and we were right around the 8th seed, would people feel differently about us barely making the playoffs and getting killed by the Cavs or Raptors? Would people still want us to “tank” to get a higher draft pick?

    I ask this bc I think it brings up an interesting question about the term “tanking” which I think has become overused. I totally get not wanting a team of aging veterans barely make or miss the playoffs and put us in no man’s land. But I think the feeling would be completely different if this was a team full of players under 25 overachieving and it looked like each player could get better the next few seasons and therefore we’d be adding a mid first rounder who might not be a star but is a rotation type player hopefully. I mean were warrior fans a few years back mad that they were a lower seed team in the playoffs? What about OKC when they were first ascending with Westbrook and Durant? They were the 8th seed against the Lakers and their fans were ecstatic to even be in the playoffs. But they knew their pieces were just getting warmed up.

    @39

    I would be all in it to win it. Being an 8th seed with an unfulfilled ceiling and a future is different that being an 8th seed which has peaked and will decline in the immediate years after.

    Well yeah. If we were younger, better, and had more flexibility we’d feel all feel a lot differently. Being a lower seeded playoff team isn’t inherently bad, it definitely wasn’t for the examples you mentioned. Being a lower seeded playoff team (or in our case, much worse) with an old, expensive roster that can really only improve through the draft is the problem.

    So lets say Phil does make moves before the deadline. Trades Rose and Melo, Jennings, even Lee.

    And then Hornaceck with the young guys, led by KP, KQ and Noah (assuming he can’t be traded now) all buy in and the weight is off their shoulders and they start winning games but we barely miss the playoffs. Would people be mad about that? It would mean our first rounder is not a top 10 pick but we gained some picks through the trades of the vets. Assume none of those picks were lottery picks but maybe we gained another late first rounder and some second rounders. Just throwing out hypotheticals.

    If Porzingis, Oquinn, Noah, Baker, Billy, Kuz, etc. are good enough to make the playoffs on their own, I’d be very happy

    why isnt anyone talking about the drudging the Cavs took last night; dont theyt need rose or Melo?

    So lets say Phil does make moves before the deadline. Trades Rose and Melo, Jennings, even Lee.

    And then Hornaceck with the young guys, led by KP, KQ and Noah (assuming he can’t be traded now) all buy in and the weight is off their shoulders and they start winning games but we barely miss the playoffs. Would people be mad about that? It would mean our first rounder is not a top 10 pick but we gained some picks through the trades of the vets. Assume none of those picks were lottery picks but maybe we gained another late first rounder and some second rounders. Just throwing out hypotheticals.

    I’d be thrilled as these Knicks would have a ton of cap space, a bunch of low first round/high 2nd round picks and a legit young star with legit young players (they would be playing .500 ball in your hypothetical)

    They would be in a better spot than the 24-20 knicks pre Melo trade…. and everyone appreciated that team and liked its future

    @ 43 – its just a thought experiment. I’m curious where people actually stand when it comes to tanking. I think the word gets overused (also “blow it up”) and I’m curious which people would want us to go the philly route or if people would be ok with us being a middling team if we were a young middling team.

    I would not be crazy with the young guys making such a playoff run because I think it would mean KP playing major minutes he’s just not equipped to take on at this point in his career but I would welcome the experience. We still need major surrounding talent on this team and with a deep draft our making the playoffs means us getting a Kennard instead of a Ntilikina or Anunoby which isn’t bad.

    why isnt anyone talking about the drudging the Cavs took last night; dont theyt need rose or Melo?

    Unless they begin the conversation with the words “Kevin Love” what is there to talk about?

    I would not be crazy with the young guys making such a playoff run because I think it would mean KP playing major minutes he’s just not equipped to take on at this point in his career but I would welcome the experience.

    The Unicorn must be sat until his leg is completely healed and 100% rehabed. That is just master of the obvious stuff. When he returns he should be on a minutes limit that balances his physical maturity with the positive he gains by playing minutes. Making the 8th seed shouldn’t enter into the discussion…. merely what is best for his long term growth as a player while maximizing his long term health.

    @52

    I would love to have Love so we can trade him to Boston for that #1 pick and some of their depth.

    As someone currently dealing with achilles tendinitis, I strongly hope they let KP sit out as long as he needs to get to 100%. I normally play basketball once a week and run/jog another day or 2, but once this injury popped up I stopped doing both for about 2 months straight to try and get fully healed. 2 months of no athletic activity and it’s still here. Granted, I’m 35 and not 21, and I don’t have a full professional medical staff at my disposal to help with rehab, but it’s become a nagging injury, and I’ve never had any issues with this part of my body until now.

    I think we should sit all the Knicks in a room, give them an IQ test, give them some kind of psychological exam that helps determine if you have an emotional development disorder, and trade everyone that gets a below average score on either. We might only have 5-6 pieces left, but as long as KP & Hernangomez are 2 of them, that’s a better idea than anything else we’ve been doing so far. I’d be happy with KP, Hernangomez, Justin Holiday, Kyle O’Quin, Ron Baker & Cheese going forward. All are young and seem bright and sensible. I wouldn’t mind a couple of others, but they aren’t good enough or young enough to include.

    The team is utterly unwatchable.
    It is just not worth investing so much time into a franchise so inept.
    It was fun watching KP daily. I enjoy his effort.

    I think from the moment Melo arrived, more specifically how he arrived, tainted his stay here.
    We gave up way too much for him. He forced the Knicks to make too big an offer for him and it set the franchise back.
    There are a lot of other problems, but it all isn’t on Dolan. Frankly, the Rangers are a fantastic franchise and he bears responsibility there, too.
    No, I think there have been some poisonous trades and hires.

    The Rose decision appears to be blowing up. He seems to be emotionally unstable (remember his flight to Chicago?), which seems to be reflected in his play. It’s a low basketball IQ team.

    I won’t be surprised if Melo forces a trade now. He’s running out of time.

    I think Love has found a comfortable niche as a player in Cleveland and the rest of the players have finally accepted him in a way that makes him feel wanted and important. It’s amazing how one series, and especially one defensive play, can change things.

    @53
    that would be good; does that make clevland any better?

    doesn’t matter…. It only matters if LeBron thinks it does….

    The Rose decision appears to be blowing up. He seems to be emotionally unstable (remember his flight to Chicago?), which seems to be reflected in his play. It’s a low basketball IQ team.

    I won’t be surprised if Melo forces a trade now. He’s running out of time.

    The Rose decision doesn’t hurt anything. He can go at the end of the year and Phil took a flyer on him and the dice came up snake eyes. No damage done.

    As mediocre as Noah has played , he is out performing Lopez by a bunch and is trending up, so no damage done by that entire episode. Phil took a shot and whiffed but with really no long term damage done.

    I have a feeling that Rose is going to get another deal from the Knicks. How many Knickerbloggers defend it — that’s the real question.

    Call me crazy but I don’t think the defending champs are shaking up their core midseason for no reason other than to help the Knicks out.

    The Rose decision appears to be blowing up.

    It never made sense.

    Not only did he seem like he was years past anything resembling a good player, it seemed very unlikely we would sign him long term due to injury risks even if he was better than last year. We also gave away 2 decent contracts in Lopez and Grant (and I don’t want to debate Grant again because he’d still be fine as the 2nd or 3rd string PG at that salary) which forced us to sign Noah to a bad contract (and he’s not even much if any upgrade over Lopez).

    We should have stayed with what we had, tried to add a sensible piece like Lee if possible, and used the rest of the cap space prudently. We all know why we went this route. It was to appease Melo. This is just another of an endless number of reasons why thoughtful fans resent him so much. He was the reason we blew up the beginnings of a decent rebuild under D’Antoni and he’s the reason we went down this idiotic path. All for a guy that is not even very good.

    I have a feeling that Rose is going to get another deal from the Knicks. How many Knickerbloggers defend it — that’s the real question.

    If Rose gets another deal, that will be it for me. I’ve been a fan since I was a young boy in the mid to late 60s. I will not go to a single game and I will boycott watching them. No one on earth can be that stupid and expect me to stay the course. I’m already at the stage where I am watching more Nugget and Rocket basketball because I like those teams a little. (Jokic is going to be special). Sign Rose again and I’m done. That’s it.

    @62

    everyone agrees; but the 40 pt blowout yesterday is right on time with the melo rumors.

    Ive defended melo over the years but yeah I always resented how he got here. I didn’t expect him to wait until Free Agency to join us as that would have meant giving up a lot of money and it was before the current CBA so he had no idea how bad it could have been, but he totally screwed us in the negotiations by leaving the Brooklyn window open. All he had to do was say “I will only go to The Knicks and if you send me to any other team I will leave them at the end of the season” and we would have had all the leverage in that deal. I was fine giving away Gallo and Chandler. I knew we would give up more than that too. But I think if he had said that we probably could have kept Felton and Mosgov and not had to take back Billups.

    Think about how different the next few years could have played out. We could have amnestied STAT when it was obvious he wasn’t going to live up to his contract (maybe before the 54 win season). If we still got Chandler somehow then maybe Mozgov is his back up, so no need to get Camby in a trade that was stupid and then no BARGs trade. Maybe we have more money to keep Lin, etc.

    I don’t know the specifics of cap and money but Melo not playing poker in the melodrama forced the Knicks to give up more than they had to in that trade.

    @6: so you’re pulling for Melo to outlast Phil. I get that the way Phil has gone about thing has been increasingly douche-ee, but I ask you to really think ahead and consider what you’re asking for.

    I will never understand people trying to appeal to Jim Dolan to straighten out anything… ANYTHING. You trust him to replace Jackson with someone competent? After finding the one guy that finally got him to finally back the hell off this team, you want him to get involved again??? Are ya serious??? It’s like someone being attacked by Freddy Fazbear and you’re begging Hannibal Lecter to come save you, who just so happens to be the only person nearby to hear your screams.

    And look, the team is imploding, and Phil has to answer for that. But we knew this season was a gamble. I was with the optimists: I believed 45 wins were defintely in play. 14-10 wasn’t that long ago. Rose’s ability to drive was just what the Dr ordered – so I thought. Melo was Melo. Noah was still getting right, but KOQ and WillyBilly were producing well. Hornacek was mostly making good use of his personnel and mixing triangle with p-n-r. Most importantly, our Unicorn was taking the next step.

    But unfortunately, the pessimists were right in terms of pointing to the Knicks point differential and team defensive metrics to predict the team’s success wouldn’t hold up. Throw in a few missed games here n there to KP and a few others, including Rose’s AWOL, and Phil’s insistence on keeping Rambis on the coaching staff (and having an EPIC FAIL getting this team to play credible defense), and here we go.

    If I had to pick between Melo and Phil I’m picking Melo all day. Melo didn’t trade for Derrick Rose.

    Noah just doesn’t have the lateral movement he used to have, which really limits his impact. He’s a pretty weird player at this point of his career– he still gets lots of rebounds and is a good passer– but he’s not really the impact defender the team needed. He’s always just a split second late to make the play.

    I would be absolutely shocked if we could get anything of value from trading Melo to a team he actually would be willing to go to. You would think that the NTC would limit the pool to contenders only, and the trade kicker would mean that team would have to be willing to pay a 33 year old Melo over $30mil. I’m sure if we just want to dump Melo, someone will take him, but we’ll probably get back some awful contracts and few, if any, picks. We really are probably better off keeping him and hope he doesn’t execute his player option after next season.

    If I had to pick between Melo and Phil I’m picking Melo all day. Melo didn’t trade for Derrick Rose.

    You have it backwards. Phil essentially felt forced to make these dumb moves to appease Melo. The alternative was a war with Melo that he would probably lose. So he tried to both appease the Knicks anti-Christ by bringing in some vets while staying on course long term for the KP rebuild by not giving up picks to do it. He failed.

    I don’t care if all you guys want to admit it to yourselves or not.

    This franchise has been run for and by a primadona that is not even a very good basketball player. We threw away 7 years of Knicks basketball for this idiot.

    kevin,
    someone said here yesterday that the knicks have to pay the trade kicker not the other team

    Great posts by stratomatic ITT. I can’t fathom how Melo apologists still exist. The numbers speak for themselves..

    The present team has plenty of upside potential. KP plus Willy plus Baker plus Kuz plus NDour plus Plumlee plus Oak all have upside potential. I trust in Phil and Gaines to add at least 2 or 3 good young players next year as he did this year with no draft picks. The future is bright. So why tank?

    If Phil felt forced to re-sign Melo he should have turned down the job. If complete autonomy wasn’t a condition of him taking the job then there was no point in bringing him in here, and he basically just did it for the money. The MMM contract was the foundation that this ridiculous house of cards was built on. Astute observers of the game recognized it as a mistake immediately.

    You can’t blame Melo for Phil Jackson’s short comings. It’s Melo’s fault PJ has never put together a winning season?

    That was me, Mase. I corrected myself above. For contracts signed before the new CBA the receiving team pays, post-new CBA its the sender.

    Look, it’s clear that Rose – while demonstrating some abilities that the team can really use – is not our long term answer at the point. But that doesn’t make him an abomination (just talking basketball ability, not his personality or intellectual capability) – for the sake of all that is holy, he’s not Bargnani.

    @82 Derrick Rose’s TS% and WS/48 are both currently lower than the ones Bargnani posted in each of his two seasons with the Knicks.

    The point I’m trying to make is that Phil Jackson has been more harmful to the franchise in recent years than Carmelo Anthony has been. Twice he overestimated the defensive ability of a shooting guard. The Tyson Chandler trade was terrible. The Lee and Noah contracts are terrible even if they’ve been productive players. Kristaps Porzingis is the crown jewel of this franchise, but PJ did nothing else well. This isn’t the NFL where you get to draft Andrew Luck and keep a job even though everything else you’ve done was terrible to okay. PJ doesn’t have the chops to run this franchise.

    Rose is not much better than Bargs. Mediocre offense, nonexistent defense. Rose sucks pretty bad.

    Remove both of them, but I think Phil is decidedly more harmful–Melo’s done pretty much all the damage he’s could, so far. Phil is a rigid, arrogant ideologue–the worst kind of person you could have running any organization that requires sober analysis and sound decision making. And he’s worried about his legacy, which might lead him to make even more boneheaded moves.

    If we can’t get assets back for Melo we might as well hang onto him, I imagine.

    It’s still hard to choose which was worse. The Melo trade or MMM+NTC+kicker?

    And likewise difficult to rate those two in the pantheon of bad Knicks decisions in the post-Ewing era.

    The Eddy Curry trade still was worse imo. In some ways signing Amare’s uninsurable knees might have been more obviously stupid. And then there was Marbury. Bargnani! Too many to mention.

    Re-signing Rose would be almost a blessing for me, just put me out of my misery.

    does anyone here suspect that rose does not respect melo’s game…? i get a feeling that this team, as constructed, is even more doomed than we know… i just get that feeling that melo rubs almost everyone he plays with the wrong way… im into feelings lately…

    @ 84 – I disagree.

    Chandler trade – bad in hindsight. Pretty much supported by everyone when it went down. If you trade for young players no matter how promising you take the risk they don’t turn out.

    KQ – good signing
    KP – great draft pick
    Willie H – great draft pick (in the second round!)
    Kuz – good non draft pick up
    Ron – good non draft pick up

    Plus we have all our first rounders and more second rounders going forward.

    Now the thing is, right now, this moment in time, is where Phil has the toughest (well we’d say easiest but politically it might be tough) decision to make. IF he blows it up and trades some of the vets/KQ for picks and pivots towards a real rebuild, he could look like a genius. If he does nothing and then resigns Rose, he’s immediately very bad.

    As bad as things are right now, I still think the team is only 3 pieces away from being good, even with Melo. It’s just that Rose, Jennings, and to a lesser extent Noah, were all bad fits. We need 2 point guards that could play D and a starting caliber 3/D wing to put next to Melo.

    IMO, the best-case realistic scenario for this team is not trading Melo (b/c that’s unrealistic): tank the season, get rid of Rose and Jennings, re-tool at the above-mentioned spots with younger players in the off-season. This is total speculation at this point obviously, but fun to think about. Imagine if we sucked enough to get a top-10 pick, then draft one of Anunoby/Tatum/Fox/Isaac/Ntilikina/Bridges and sign say Jrue Holiday. It probably makes sense to try to deal OQ for a back-up PG or wing as well, given the big-man glut. This could be as fun a team to root for as we’ve had since the Stat/Gallo/Felton squad:

    1: Jrue/back-up FA/Baker
    2: Lee/Holiday/Baker
    3: Tatum/Anunoby/Isaac
    4: Melo/KP/OQ
    5: KP/Noah/OQ/Willy

    That team wins 45 games in 2017-18, with room for growth in the development of KP and the new draft pick. Key is not to go all out for the 8th seed this year. It’s clear we’re not competing, so shut it down, let the Rose experiment run it’s course, and get a good draft pick. Without trading Melo, I can’t see a better outcome.

    This franchise has been run for and by a primadona that is not even a very good basketball player. We threw away 7 years of Knicks basketball for this idiot.

    This is the problem i have with some knick fans. If you do that same Melo trade, the knicks could have become contenders if not perennial 2 seeds in the East.

    The Billups amnesty set the ball rolling in the wrong direction. Once that happened, the Knicks were stuck with Amare stoudemire (Making more than Melo mind you) as an anvil around the team. A non defending oft injured big.

    That is what cost the Knicks. not Melo. Imagine if the Knicks played the next season with Billups on the last year of his deal and with an Amnesty in hand. CP3 is more likely than not , then who knows? Its so fucking lazy all of the Melo hate.

    Then idiots say he isnt even good. lol

    @93
    handler trade accomplished 2 2nd round picks and got rid of felton, that was a plus!
    -found galloway
    -hornacek(my fav coach since van gundy)

    i never really understood why we gave away iman and J.r. to slevland; dont they owe us a favor?!?

    Okay, so Rose is comparatively bad to Bargs. But Bargs wishes he had anything close to the success of pre-injury Rose.

    His contract ends when the season ends. The team didn’t mortgage the future to get him (As in giving up a FUTURE first round pick). So he’s a blown gamble who’s losses we can cut after the season. Unless they resign him, which they really shouldn’t.

    Bargnani’s problem was never TS% — well, except in 2012-13 when it was 48.3%, the season before the Knicks traded a 1st round pick for him.

    It was rebounding. He averaged 7.7 PER FORTY-EIGHT MINUTES over his career. Not per-36, not per-game. Per-48. This year, here’s a list of guards and G/F who have better rebounding numbers than that.

    J. Lamb
    A. Bradley
    T. Allen
    J. Butler
    K. Oubre
    T. Sefolosha
    R. Westbrook
    J. Harden
    R. Rondo
    P. Beverley
    T. Rozier
    C. Paul
    N. Batum

    Rose is an awful PG and has somehow bounced back from the last two year, in which he was the league’s worst PG (outside of maybe Mudiay and Wroten), but he’s never reached the depths of Bargnani. I cannot believe that the Nets put him on the floor last year. Rare to see a player quite that bad in the NBA, and this is a league in which Jerome James got a $30M contract and Anthony Bennett was a #1 overall pick.

    More craziness from the stat sheet:

    In ’12-’13, 7’0″ “PF/C” Andrea Bargnani averaged 6.1 rebounds per 48 in over 1000 minutes. In ’08-’09, 5’9″ guard Nate Robinson (you might remember him) averaged 6.3 rebounds per 48 in 2000 minutes.

    If it weren’t for Melo, we’d have Kurt Rambis as our head coach and Phil Jackson would be trying to triangulate his way to wins. That’s the kind of guy we have running the organization. Phil Jackson isn’t a good executive. If we trade Melo we’ll end up with another Tyson Chandler level trade, we’ll hear Phil bad talk Melo in the Phil Files, and then we’ll somehow find a way to put together another 30 win team.

    I just hope Hornacek, who has had the stones to bench every starter on merit (except Melo but that’s forgivable), and Clarence Gaines survive and stay with the organization for the foreseeable future.

    I like all of the Holidays. We should draft the one at UCLA to get Jrue to sign here. In the 2nd round, of course.

    This team is getting close, folks.

    I’d argue that it was really the Jared Jeffries trade that set everything in motion and made every win now move that followed so much easier to rationalize. We gave up swap rights in 2011 and our 2012 pick (unprotected) just to clear like $6m of cap room.

    And maybe you could say it was worth the risk in this one instance where there was a chance Lebron might come, but had we not made that move, I think there’s a reasonable chance that Walsh doesn’t feel compelled to sign Stoudemire or any other older player and continues to build with the existing core.

    No Stoudemire means the Knicks feel a lot less pressure to go all in for Melo and perhaps that Melo isn’t interested in coming to the Knicks.

    And I’m not saying that team would have been good. I think a core of Gallinari, Lee, Hill, Robinson, Chandler, 2011 lotto pick probably maxes out in the upper 40s in terms of wins similar to the Bulls from 04/05 – 06/07, but they have their draft picks, and they have players who are young enough where there’s no imminent pressure to try to capitalize on their talents before they decline. They have guys with stable trade value due to their relative youth so they can pivot and do another year in the lottery if that seems necessary (they also have their pick!).

    One thing I should add. I don’t think it’s easy to build a great NBA team unless you are DRed.

    We could have had all the cap space in the world the last couple of years and still not have struck gold in free agency. Scratch Melo and Noah off the cap and we’d still have struggled to build an elite team. 45 million in cap space doesn’t go that far. It’s not all on Jackson, though he has been pretty bad. Unless you have a cornerstone piece it’s not easy.

    But I really hope Jax and the FO are smart enough to realize that they have one last chance to pull something from the fire here and figure out how to tank like we mean it.

    In order for the Knicks to get to 38-44, they would have to go 20-20 over the last 40. I think we go 15-25 to end with 33 wins.

    From Ramona Shelburne:

    Phil Jackson met with Carmelo Anthony today and asked him if he wanted to remain with the Knicks, sources told ESPN

    Melo has a no trade clause. So he’d need to waive that. No specific teams discussed. Everyone just processing now.

    One source described the meeting as far more contentious than previous sit downs between Jackson and Anthony.

    In Melo’s defense, none of the damage that having him around has done would’ve been possible without multiple GMs (or whoever the hell was making the decisions) enabling as much. It’s true that he could’ve ruled out re-signing in Brooklyn, been amenable to a far more reasonable contract in free agency, etc. but it’s also true that the Knicks could’ve called his bluff in both situations.

    I don’t think acquiring him and then re-signing him was a good idea to begin with, but even if you assume both had to happen our front office(s) still fucked up majorly. Melo just signed the shitty deal they put in front of him. They were mostly negotiating against themselves in both scenarios and still managed to get taken to the woodshed. Players unworthy of big contracts have been trying to get them since the advent of free agency, it’s the job of NBA decision makers not to dole them out.

    If Phil is trying to do something other than force Melo out he’s going about it in a very strange way.

    Phil is a rigid, arrogant ideologue–the worst kind of person you could have running any organization that requires sober analysis and sound decision making.

    Massive, I like your posts, but the argument you present is as irrational as anything you accuse Phil of. He’s made some terrible decisions, but you can’t limit the good things he’s done to “draft KP and that’s it.” With sober analysis, you’d have to acknowledge that that isn’t it.

    Ironically, between him and Melo I think Melo is marginally better at his job, but we should be rooting for Phil to win this battle. Melo’s value will only decline; we will never win a title while he’s here; if we deal him now we may get some value and may end up losing more games (because criticize him all you want, the team is better with him on the floor). Losing games will improve our draft ranking, and we could get the distributor to pair with KP for the next decade.

    Meanwhile, Phil has drafted very well, and his main sin as GM has been to try to have it both ways – retain some flexibility while (theoretically) building a decent team. If he is allowed to deal Melo, he’ll certainly blow it up and build around Porzingis. He was quoted during summer league as saying that KP is the core of the franchise, so clearly he sees what we see – it’s all about KP going forward. I think we’d all be fine with that, and if he were truly cleaning house, there is little damage Phil could do. He might fail to get adequate value back in trades, but just clearing the books of bad contracts without giving up picks would be a win.

    So I’m hoping this is our moment. Melo has to go.

    If we can somehow, some way get a lottery pick back for Melo (and I don’t even care about the flotsam we’d have to take back to match salaries) I will sing to the heavens.

    But since this is the Knicks, we’ll end up with Rudy Gay or Evan Turner and a 2020 2nd round pick.

    aaaaaaaand Isola reporting that Melo said he wants to remain. Well fuck. Don’t give out enormous contracts with NTCs to mediocre players, kids. You just might have to, you know, honor them.

    Melo reaffirmed his desire to stay with the Knicks and has no interest in waiving his no trade clause, per Woj and Isola.

    Shit. Guess Jackson’s next on the chopping block (or, *shudders* Hornacek)

    Thought I have to commend Melo’s persistence and loyalty, however boneheaded I think it is.

    As @FisolaNYDN reports, Anthony wants to win in New York — nowhere else.

    From Woj.

    The phrase “win in NY” makes me worry that Jackson is going to be roped into making more win-now moves before the season is over. Or his successor will be. Hope to God not.

    I hope Jackson at least said something along the lines of “well we’re fine with you staying, but just know our moves are going to be geared towards the future from this point forward.” No more Derrick Rose trades.

    So now it would be fair to bench him or make him the sixth man. No?

    In ’12-’13, 7’0? “PF/C” Andrea Bargnani averaged 6.1 rebounds per 48 in over 1000 minutes. In ’08-’09, 5’9? guard Nate Robinson (you might remember him) averaged 6.3 rebounds per 48 in 2000 minutes.

    Maybe the greatest stat ever……

    I hope Jackson at least said something along the lines of “well we’re fine with you staying, but just know our moves are going to be geared towards the future from this point forward.” No more Derrick Rose trades.

    Nothing about the way Phil has handled this makes that seem very likely. He certainly seems to be taking the fully passive aggressive tact, presumably because he’s trying to avoid any heat for chasing Melo out (either that heat would come from Dolan or Phil is badly misreading the temperature of the fanbase…or I am). I expect Phil winced and said something along the lines of how happy he is to hear that and how they’re totally on the same page. Phil seemingly wants him gone, but not enough to take the full weight of the decision.

    Melo is the scourge of the team. Not Phil.

    Melo could’ve been gone, and even traded for nice things! You know who prevented that by giving him the biggest contract in the NBA (at the time) and a full no trade clause?

    @115: I can understand that. But really, Melo can’t pressure him – he wants to stay here too badly. So if all Jackson does is occasionally pay Melo lip service but then continues this stealth tank, what is Melo really gonna do?
    @117: I hope so too, although I never really believed that this year’s team was “win-now”, but “let’s improve on last year and make the playoffs while keeping some roster flexibility with an eye twds the future”.

    So now it would be fair to bench him or make him the sixth man. No?

    Of course it would. He is obligated to be paid, not played if he doesn’t conform to the wishes of the coach and management.

    If they think it is in the best long term interest of the team Rose, Lee, Noah and Jennings should be jettisoned for whatever picks they can garner. KP should be sat until COMPLETELY healthy and his minutes then managed sensibly with zero regard to wins this year. Willy, Kuz, Baker, N’dour, Plumlee and Holiday should be force fed as many minutes as possible to see where they are and accelerate their progress without regard to wins this season.

    Let Melo look into the abyss for a while and see what he does. I would not be beyond giving him the Marbury treatment, but I would certainly bench him the instant he hero balls it a single time when it isn’t indicated. If he doesn’t hustle on defense bench him and talk about why in the post game presser. Everyone is going to be held accountable from now on.

    There is zero reason to treat him any different WRT minutes than the 15th man on the roster. They can make him yell uncle if they are serious.

    I don’t blame Melo for any of this. He got his and why shouldn’t he have? I have always felt that way. Can’t fault a guy for getting the best deal possible.

    I don’t think he wants the indignity of being shopped though. Nothing would wreck his rep like the mass realization that no one wants him.

    You don’t need to be Nostradamus to see where this is headed.

    1. Porzingis will return and the Knicks will perform just not shitty enough to get a top 12 pick and end up with, say, Luke Kennard, at #13 (a reach, I know, but I couldn’t think of any other good guard prospects at around #13. Most of the good ones are gone by then).
    2. They’ll sign a decent point guard like Jrue Holliday for as much as they can pay him, then go over the cap to re-sign his brother to the MLE.
    3. The improved Knicks (as Holliday and Kennard are huge improvements on Rose and Jennings) win 44 games.
    4. All season long, there is debate over whether Melo will opt out after the season. We’ll have conversations here where we say, “Please opt out, Melo, so we can finally move on.”
    5. At the end of the season, he WILL opt out.
    6. Melo then re-signs with the Knicks on a slightly-less-than-max contract with (he’ll be 34, so he won’t be greedy and try to get the full max).

    I don’t think he wants the indignity of being shopped though. Nothing would wreck his rep like the mass realization that no one wants him.

    And that’s precisely the reason he should be publicly shopped.

    Jackson played on and coached teams predicated on defense, It must make him crazy watching this team give up >110 points every night

    @122 Dolan.

    So the great Phil Jackson has agreed to be the puppet of a moron? Just for a nice check?

    It is in Melo’s financial and professional interest to be traded. He is being totally pig-headed so I hope that he is treated based on his performance from now on and not his ego.

    The Timberwolves have attached Rubio to multiple offers with Shabazz Muhammad to several teams around the NBA, league sources said. Minnesota has been seeking something of a “bridge” guard in return, a player capable of starting in the short term, but who’ll ultimately settle into a backup role and give way to rookie Kris Dunn to become the long-term starter, league sources said.

    How’s this sound?
    http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=zsjjlth

    continuing the nostradamus thread:
    also, i think we try to move jennings before the deadline but no one will want him… i can see us getting offers for koq and kuz

    The most fascinating thing about how horribly Jackson played the MMM situation is that clearly Melo doesn’t want to be anywhere but New York, hence him clinging to and insisting on he no trade clause. Which is fair enough, but you not only A. agreed to give it to him (which he shouldn’t have, as it it foolish to give a NTC to an aging star when you’re not a good team but B. also paid him $50 million more than any other team could. Only the exploding cap (something that no GM knew was going to happen at the time – if they did, there’s no way Jackson would have spent so much effort dumping Felton and JR’s contracts) made it so that the MMM wasn’t a cap killing contract. And he gave that to Melo on top of the no trade clause, despite it being obvious that Melo wanted to be nowhere else but here. That was like the Goofus side of a “Goofus and Gallant” piece on how to negotiate a super-important contract.

    @127 – Brian, All that is fine with the exception of item #6. That’s where PJ needs to say “No”.

    There’s another story line today and that’s Courtney Lee. We’ve all been relatively quiet about it, but he has not, IMO, lived up to the defense that I expected. True that Melo and Rose are awful defenders these days, but Lee isn’t the stopper I had hoped for – especially 3-pt defense.

    If there’s a move to be made it involves trading him.

    Brian do you really believe that Dolan wasn’t involved in Melo’s deal?

    basically we negotiated against our selves for melos services

    Yep. And gave him a mega max contract and a no-trade clause. Every shitty Knick decision has to have that extra little, “Oh yeah, and by the way, we also did this, too.”

    @127 – Brian, All that is fine with the exception of item #6. That’s where PJ needs to say “No”.

    Jackson will be saying “No.” To the full max contract, of course. They will be able to sell it as Melo taking a millions of dollar paycut to retire a Knick!

    And as to your other point, holy shit, yes, they should be burning the midnight oil to dump Lee when they can actually get some value for that soon-to-be albatross of a contract.

    We traded Novak for Bargnani?

    And a pick?

    And it was the “last little shitty thing” of the original Melo trade that made the Bargs pick available, as no way they trade it if it was not already in a swap situation with Denver, and the “swap 2016 picks” was the last little shitty thing in the original awful Melo trade.

    And as to your other point, holy shit, yes, they should be burning the midnight oil to dump Lee when they can actually get some value for that soon-to-be albatross of a contract.

    Get down off the roof, Cronin. Lee’s $13 mil per contract is under market value, nowhere near an albatross.

    Man, this board really is schizo. PJ is the absolute worst! The Knicks are doomed! Rose will reclaim greatness and we’ll win 48 games! Calm down, people, we are currently neither the worst or best NBA franchise. We are mediocre. And yes, that sucks – but it doesn’t make Lee an albatross, or PJ the worst exec of all time. And no, we won’t be signing Melo when he’s 34, and no, we won’t be trading a #1 pick in the desperate hope we become a winning team this year. You are experiencing post-traumatic Knicks disorder (PTKD), which is typical for fans who have been through what we’ve been through…but it doesn’t mean any of it is real.

    The odd thing is when Jackson came here he had about as much cachet or basketball credibility as anyone in recent history. Despite that he still went and not only signed Melo, thereby putting the team on a five years window, but he gave him the MMM. Dolan brought him in and publicly said words to the effect of I’m staying out of it an leaving it to a professional. So either he just tuned out and took Dolan’s money or he really believes he needs guys like Rose and Melo

    Get down off the roof, Cronin. Lee’s $13 mil per contract is under market value,

    NBA decline is not some slow and steady thing. It happens quickly. And while yes, his contract for this specific year is fine now, he’s signed for three more years and he’s already dramatically declined as a defender. Look at Arron Afflalo, do you think he gets $12.5 million if he was a free agent this coming offseason? No way. Similarly, Lee wouldn’t get this same deal next season, which is why they should trade him now when they can get something of value for him (hence the “soon to be” part, not “currently an albatross contract”).

    The standard moronic NBA GM move is “We can’t trade him now, he still has trade value!”

    Lee’s $13 mil per contract is under market value, nowhere near an albatross.

    Under market value? What makes you say that? He’s #163 in total Win Shares, #94 in salary, #200 in WS/48 (qualified leaderboards) . Trying very hard to figure out how that’s “under market value.”

    And no, we won’t be signing Melo when he’s 34,

    Don’t be so sure. No other team could have legally offered Melo a NTC (the CBA restricted that). No other team could have offered Melo the fifth year at 30m which had to be pretty important to a 30yo. I could have understood offering the 5th year at 30m but why the NTC? It made no sense. Either Phil is a complete moron or that was a gift from Dolan to keep those blues gigs via CAA. It therefore wouldn’t be a complete surprise if Melo opts out and Dolan again gifts him something like a 4 yr 60m contract so that JD & The Straight Shot could stay on the circuit.

    I think 4/$80 is more likely, but yeah, that’s the basic concept. Since his max would be something like a starting salary of $35 million, then a $20 million salary is nearly a 50% discount! Look at how much hardball Jackson is playing! And it would come with only a partial NTC, since they don’t want to let Melo totally get over on them.

    EDITED TO ADD: Actually, I think 3/$75 is probably closer to it. That’s roughly what Kobe got at the end of his deal. And that was before the cap exploded.

    Minnesota and the Knicks seem like good trading partners right now. I can see us making a trade with them and increasing our chances of greatness.

    Lee for Rubio, make it happen Phil.. tell Thibs he can have Rose as half year rental too

    We’re halfway through season one of the “win now” Melo/Lee/Noah Knicks and we’re discussing how to best blow it all up and realizing that it’s essentially impossible because of all the poor, irreversible decisions that led us here.

    Keep Knicksing, Knicks! Don’t ever change.

    For Christ’s sake. Just let him play out the season and then waive him. The Kings will trade some more draft picks to clear cap room and then claim him off waivers. I have a hard time believing that the Knicks couldn’t sell him on a trade at least to the Clippers if they show a willingness to waive him. He is bad for the team at this point just because he takes so many minutes and shots and improves their win total.

    I don’t understand why you say, “We should have a conversation about whether I belong here” or whatever and then go in and say the same shit you’ve always said. You won’t allow a trade.

    At this point though with Melo and PJ seemingly at odds, I’m in favor of Jackson staying. If he’s willing to fight Melo on this and just commit to a rebuild and let Melo do whatever he wants, that’s better than whatever replacement we might get, whom Melo might have an easier time bullying.

    Melo says he wants to “win in NY.” I’m curious if he actually believes that’s possible or if he knows it’s a lie.

    I think he believes he can, but he is not a moron, he knows it is increasingly unlikely, it is just more important for him to be here than to win. Remember, the guy decided to commit to this team after the shitty 37-win season when it was clear that the roster was going to be in for a slog the next couple of years (we didn’t know that the bottom would fall out, but we knew it was not going to be some great team any time soon).

    If winning was ever Melo’s primary goal, his NBA career would look much differently. Which is fine, of course, he’s chosen money and living in the greatest city in the world over winning. Can’t say that I blame him. It’s the Knicks’ fault for letting him control everything.

    Even if we’re stuck with Melo, I just don’t think it’s that hard to fix this team. It starts with making a few key, related admissions: 1) Melo is a 4. 2) Melo is a horrible defender, and must be surrounded by plus defenders at all other positions. 3) We have too many big men if Melo is a 4.

    Here’s how you go about creating a balanced roster given those admissions:

    1) Let go of Rose and Jennings in the offseason. Neither works on this roster because neither plays D.

    2) There aren’t enough minutes for Melo, KP, Oquin, Willy, and Noah. Since Noah is untradeable, O’Quinn is the odd man out. Trade him for the best you can get of either a pick, a young wing who can play defense, or a young back-up point guard who can play defense.

    3) Target a plus-defending point guard AND wing in the draft. Spend the first round pick on one of those positions, and one or both of the second rounders on the other.

    4) Target a plus-defending point guard AND wing in free agency. Allocate the money here based on how you allocated the draft resources. (I.e. if you end up with a pg as your first rounder, you spend more of your cap money on the wing). We’ll probably have $20M in cap space, so use most of it on one player and sign the other with whatever exception we have, mini-mid level I think.

    You go into the next year with the current team:
    -Rose, Jennings and O’Quinn
    +Starting plus defending 1, starting plus defender 3, back-up plus defender 1, back-up plus defender 3

    The rotation the following year starts defensive 1, Lee, defensive 3, Melo, KP with Thomas, Noah, Willy, Kuz and the other defense first guys you picked up off the bench.

    Check out this Kelly Clarkson performance about her dad leaving his family when she was a kid.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FHYBQxURQo

    That’s the sort of mindset Melo had about moving his kid from New York. He was never going to leave. He had way too much trauma from when he was forced to leave NYC as a little kid.

    Isola on ESPN said that Melo “will not give Phil the satisfaction of outlasting him in New York.” What kinda shit is this? I’m depressed. He really won’t go anywhere.

    Like everyone else I’ve been clamoring for more Melo at the four for a while, but implementing it at a time when we need to lose as many games as possible is so…Knicks

    The Knicks just CAN’T ruin the tank, can they? Are the players we have good enough to ruin the tank?

    The Knicks just CAN’T ruin the tank, can they? Are the players we have good enough to ruin the tank?

    Nah, our tank is safe

    Melo at the 4, KP at the 5 seems like it’s going to be one shittay defensive rebounding team. So KP goes to the bench so old man Noah can get rebounds? Good Lord what a badly constructed pile of shit this team is.

    LOL. Is Melo admitting he won’t see Phil outlast him to the press? What a fucking bunch of babies. I thought he’d take the easy way by leaving but I see I underestimated his pettiness. Now is the time to make his life a living hell on this team.

    They could easily ruin the tank. There are a decent amount of average to above average players on this team. It’s a pretty standard 30ish win team.

    I’m not thrilled with either Phil or Melo, but I dont want to blow up the team again either. As I’ve written before, I think Phil is not the worst GM in the world, there are others that are worse. Melo may not be worth the money he’s being paid, but he’s still a good player. What the team needs now is some continuity in coaching and personnel. If it comes to changing Phil or trading Melo, I’d rather trade Melo, but I’m not willing to give him away and want something back. Then it’s changing one player rather than a probable breakdown and rebuild that you inevitably get with a new GM.

    Watching the team recently, it seems to me that the offense is smoother, with more motion and passing than at many times in the past. I want that to continue. Our defense has been horrible. It was never good, but no Porzingis and no Thomas have made it worse. Staying the course this year, getting a decent draft pick, and getting more team continuity doesnt seem so bad to me. Of course, that is the most non-Knicksy thing to do, so we probably won’t do it; but sometimes hell is getting what you wish for.

    The tank is secure as long as Rose continues to get major minutes, especially in crunch time.

    If Melo doesn’t waive that NTC this season, here’s the new path to getting rid of Melo;

    1) Phil Jackson gets fired.
    2) Dolan brings in a GM from a great program.
    3) The Warriors win a championship and Blake signs with the Boston Celtics.
    4) The new GM says “look Melo, I’m tearing this thing down.”
    5) Melo waives his NTC.
    6) The Knicks start a bidding war between CP3 and LeBron.
    7) The Knicks involve a 3rd team for assets.
    8) Accidentank 2017 wins in the end.

    I’m already looking forward to missing on all the good PG prospects. Luckily Ivan Rabb is supremely underrated in this draft.

    I’m already looking forward to missing on all the good PG prospects. Luckily Ivan Rabb is supremely underrated in this draft.

    It it is so crazy how they’re all scheduled to go in, like, the first ten picks. That’s a bizarrely PG-stacked draft.

    If KP is going to be a center long term he’s going to have to figure out how to rebound. If you bring Noah in for rebounding you can also slide KP to the 4 and sit Melo for periods of time. KP/Noah is a good rebounding front court.

    @rama I’m all for steadiness and rational thinking but I mean, this team as constructed is fucked. This stretch of games in 2017 is the dead canary. As has been pointed out repeatedly, they’ve even been lucky with injuries so far.

    The half of the roster that’s making all the money is only getting worse, but not fast enough to realize meaningful improvement through the draft, which as someone else mentioned, is the only way they can actually get better. Unless you wanted to go full Isiah and trade Porzingis + picks for Boogie or some equivalent bullshit. And even then, who knows.

    Lee took the move to the bench in stride when speaking with reporters after the game. He posted pictures from the movie “Dumb and Dumber To” on Instagram later Monday, but he explained that the photos were not a passive aggressive shot at anyone in the organization.

    Oh, okay, Lee, thanks for explaining. I love silly articles like that that just accept the player’s stupid explanation.

    it’s essentially impossible because of all the poor, irreversible decisions that led us here.

    If they are irreversible, I guess there’s no point in firing Phil. I mean, nothing can be done, right? It’s all impossible!

    Jowles, Courtney Lee is getting a bit more than $11 mil today. He’s practically the definition of league-average player – good shooter who doesn’t shoot enough, passable defender who can’t lock anyone down. That player is valuable to a team needing a competent 2-guard. And $11 mil is bupkis in this league, come on.

    I don’t see any inherent value to continuity. Keeping a bad roster intact is not going to turn it into a good roster. Statistical projections for the team going into this year were bleak (correctly so, turns out) not because the players hadn’t yet played together, but because it’s just not a very talented group.

    Unless you wanted to go full Isiah and trade Porzingis + picks for Boogie or some equivalent bullshit.

    I thought you were for steadiness and rational thinking…

    This team is good. A small tweak is all that is needed

    I guess you’re just gonna keep on keeping on with being 100% dead wrong about every single fucking thing.

    Sometimes I’m sure you’re just trolling, but then other times it’s apparent that yes, you’re just that delusional.

    This team is bad, dude. That’s just factorial.

    Every good team in the league has had basically several years together with changes of only a few players a year. I dont think our current player set is awful, at least on offense. And we have young guys who can grow. The defense needs more talent but that doesn’t mean you have to totally tear down the team. Skiles is likely to get fired in Orlando. If we hired him as an assistant coach and made him responsible for defense, that might be better for the team than any trade. Basketball is such a team game, its more than the sum of the players talents. Look at the difference Kerr made with essentially the same players. Look at Boston, two years ago, it looked like their talent wasnt so much and all they had was draft picks. But they won anyway.

    Oh, god no, I did not mean to suggest at all that the Knicks do that.

    But it is likely true that they could turn our fandom into a waking nightmare in exchange for a handful of additional wins, if that’s their sole aim.

    Phil is the GM, but this is MSG, and he’s not wielding absolute power. There were quotes around the Bulls trade saying that Grant was a Phil pick, but the rest of the FO never liked him, and Grant is gone. With Dolan and the Knicks everything is always murky. I don’t think Donnie Walsh really wanted to make the Melo trade. Since we can’t deal Melo, I assume Phil is a dead man walking, so who knows who is going to be calling the shots the rest of the season. We should absolutely try to trade anyone on this team over 25 years old.

    If they are irreversible, I guess there’s no point in firing Phil. I mean, nothing can be done, right? It’s all impossible!

    Well, the MMMNTC deal seems to be quite the millstone. Not really sure how Phil undoes that mega max mistake. And Joakim Noah is another contract that is probably just gonna have to run its course. Don’t nobody want that contract.

    Here’s an idea: prevent the guy who makes colossal mistakes from making further mistakes by firing him. Hoping he stops sucking at his job seems like the less wise approach.

    I don’t care if you’re Stephen Hawking on brain steroids, you still don’t know dick about NBA basketball.

    The Knicks don’t need to worry about “if KP is gonna be a center long term.” Nobody said you can’t play 2 Cs on the floor at the same time. If one (or both) guys can shoot and cover 4s then it doesn’t matter.

    @183
    Don’t trade Kuz!

    Trade Rose, Jennings, Lee, and OQ (if a #1 pick or in a nice package). Get Rubio. Minny wants to unload him. He holds the fort while the 2017 #1 pick gets seasoning…

    We’re stuck with Noah and Melo. To the bench with both!

    Our team is not going to get better with age. Sure, Kristaps will probably get better, maybe Willy/Kuz/Baker too. Will it offset the inevitable descent into uselessness from Melo, Noah, and Lee? Even if it does, an even offset leaves us with the same shitty team we have now. Even if their improvement outweighs the decline, it ain’t gonna be the 25 win improvement we need to even sniff contention.

    If it’s really true that Phil didn’t have full autonomy, that is a very bleak signal for the future of the franchise. That means that Dolan is GM for life and you have to wait for him to die and hope whatever son he bequeaths the team to is less of a cretinous shitstain.

    Bleak times.

    I don’t think the Knicks can get past the trade deadline without shaking the roster up. They have to trade those big contracts.

    I also feel like Dolan is coming around slowly. Don’t trade draft picks.

    I don’t think the Knicks can get past the trade deadline without shaking the roster up. They have to trade those big contracts.

    “Should”? Sure. “Have to”? Well, since they won’t, I dunno.

    Can you guys imagine if the team looks the same next year? If we keep Melo and bring back Rose? Lord save us.

    I’ll give them this much, I at least don’t think they’ll actually bring Rose back. That’s something.

    i think the folks who expect either noah, lee, thomas or melo getting moved before the deadline are going to be severely disappointed…

    Jennings and maaaaaaaaaaaaaybe KOQ are the only ones that I think miiiiiiiiight get traded this season.

    Phil’s only move left is to start trading whoever isn’t Melo. Its the perfect way to isolate and piss him off.

    Courtney Lee can be traded. Melo won’t leave and Noah is untradeable (which is cool because he’s been our best player). But dammit we can trade Courtney Lee to Memphis or Sacramento.

    Look, I like Melo a lot and even I realize we should trade him. But given that we can’t I don’t think we’re that screwed if we put the right guys around him. You can build a good team around a KP-Melo 4-5 combination. Those two alone are good enough to give you a middle of the pack offense. You just have to surround them with guys that play good D. Melo HAS TO be surrounded by 4 plus defenders. That’s the only way to make it work.

    Rose needs to go, Jennings needs to go, Lee could go. Noah can’t go so you move him to back-up C and trade OQ for wing/pg depth as he’s the only non-KP/Willy/future draft pick asset we have.

    It’s possible and not actually that difficult to construct a good team here, Phil just doesn’t seem to be up for it.

    What if he’s Stephen Hawking on brain steroids on a boat on the Spanish Main?

    Courtney Lee can be traded.

    Lee could definitely be traded for a team in need of shooting.

    Oh, Lee absolutely could be traded. And he absolutely should be traded. But again, this is shitty GM 101. “Why trade him now? He still has value for us!”

    @SJK

    No, we cannot build around the KP-Melo combination for simple reasons people haven’t gotten into their brains. KP isn’t at a point where he can play full starter minutes and stay healthy. We continue to play him full starter minutes and he will break down.

    @204

    we cannot build around the KP-Melo combination for simple reasons people haven’t gotten into their brains. KP isn’t at a point where he can play full starter minutes and stay healthy.

    What???? The problem is NOT with KP. Just because he can’t play 35mpg doesn’t mean you can’t build around him. The entire franchise should be built around KP regardless of how many minutes he can play.

    You can build around a Melo-KP combination without playing KP 35mpg… That’s why you have multiple capable back-up Cs in Noah and WillyH. If you wanted you could play KP 20 mpg at the 5 and 8-10 at the 4 when Melo goes to the bench. That’s <30mpg, which is about the minutes restriction Embiid is on for Philly.

    i don’t quite understand all the doom and gloom…. the future isn’t that bleak… there are actually some good young pieces on this team…. obviously there’s kp but both wily and baker look like they can eventually be rotation guys…. koq should have been starting a month ago but he’s there if we want to start winning….

    us being bad right now is the best thing that could’ve happened to us… the draft takes a nosedive after the lottery picks and if we make the playoffs then we really have no shot at any of that backcourt help we desperately need… there’s a lot of big men in that mid-first rd area that we have absolutely no need for….

    we have bad contracts but we have one last chance left to grab a pg in FA… after this year we can forget about that for the next three… but if we do… i think we can be pretty good…

    will we contend for a title? no that’s not happening unless kp actually makes a dirk leap…. but can we be an entertaining team in the playoffs? absolutely yes… and all we really need is to hit on this next draft pick for this to be sustainable… the bad contracts will eventually fall off and we can reload again in 3 years….

    2015 was a key offseason and we succeeded… 2017 is going to be equally as important…. aside from kp’s health… everything else is window dressing…

    @200: there’s always the off season for those kinds of moves if they can’t do all of that by the trade deadline.

    @206

    That’s <30mpg, which is about the minutes restriction Embiid is on for Philly.

    And Philly is a winning team? The problem is that the only way this team wins is if KP plays 34 minutes of all star caliber basketball. Anything less and we have the situation we’ve seen during the losing streak since Christmas after KP injured himself and his productivity/minutes declined. We play him less than 30 minutes and this team isn’t a contender. Hell, its barely one with him being ridden like Seattle Slew.

    If we are stuck with Melo for another few years, the plan should be to build around KP exclusively, get experience for the young players, and let Melo live with it or waive the NTC. No more appeasing Melo!!!

    1. I like Courtney Lee. He’s on a fair contract. The timing is not perfect for a KP rebuild, but I have no special desire to trade him or keep him. We should keep our options open.

    2. There are things I like about Jennings, but overall I think if Baker proves he can hold down the fort as a backup, Jennings could be moved.

    3. I am very against moving KOQ. He’s a good player, improving, on a terrific contract, a lovable teddy bear, and young enough to fit with KP long term. I would be really upset if we moved KOQ.

    4. I always liked Noah. He’s not the player he once was, but he’s playing better lately. If we could move him I would do it only because I don’t like the length of his contract, but I’m not as upset about him as I was earlier in the season when he looked like he was totally shot.

    5. Rose has to go at the end of the season unless someone is crazy enough to trade for him.

    6. Lance Thomas is barely an NBA caliber player. He can be traded.

    7. The priority in the draft is obviously PG.

    A helluva lot more comments since I left for work this morning lol. Too many to quote or reference, so I wanna just make some random blurbs.

    Melo- maybe I’m crazy, but I don’t think he’s this team’s biggest problem. Sure, the NTC is heavy, but he still has some real value to this team. If the team can move him, fine..great! If not, I’m ok with it as long as the decision to keep him isn’t followed by more crazy moves.

    25- Got to go. Hopefully other teams see the showcase and bite on a trade. Either way, I don’t want to see that jersey with the name on his birth certificate emblazoned on the back.

    Jennings- Oy Vey! He started the season as a refreshing sight.I dunno..if 25 is moved, then we probably hafta keep him and Lee.

    Lee- Sucks to be him right now. I’d like to keep him, but he’s deserving of a shot at contention. He won’t get it as a Knick unfortunately.

    Noah- LOVE the rebound- metaphorically and literally. Can’t see another team trading for him, so…blah

    Baker/Burgundy- More please! Not for heavy minutes yet, though.

    Holiday- I’d love to see him and Baker develop at the 2, which means Lee has to get traded.

    Thomas- Right when he was slowly rounding back into form, he gets injured. Such is the fortune of Knickland

    KP- SHUT HIM DOWN NOW(until he’s 100%)!! I DON’T GIVE A DAMN IF HE HAS A SHOT AT THE ASG!! Then when he comes back, see if he can handle center.

    KOQ- Don’t wanna lose him, but he’s the only player on the roster whose trade value is up. Tough call on that…sighhhh…

    Willy- Needs a consistent role. Unfortunately for him, Noah is finally starting to play and KOQ is playing well.

    Chasson Randle- Fuck, Phil! Why’d you let that happen???

    @209

    Philly is a losing team because everyone that gets minutes not named Embiid and to a lesser extent Noel isn’t very good. If embiid played 40mpg they would still be bad.

    I put him out as a comp only bc 28 minutes seems to be a reasonable limit for an injury prone young big.

    Obviously our current team sucks without KP playing 34 mins of all-star play but I’m talking about retooling the team with guys that actually play defense so that it doesn’t suck. The offense can function absolutely fine with KP playing 20-30mpg.

    If a trade opens up for Kyle we should look into it. The fact that we have KP, Willy, Noah and bigs in our draft range leaves KOQ as the odd man out.

    No need to rush a trade though.

    Philly is a losing team because everyone that gets minutes not named Embiid and to a lesser extent Noel isn’t very good.

    Welcome to the Knicks sans KP, KOQ and Melo. Mind you, the Knicks surrounding players aren’t as bad as the Sixers surrounding squad but, then again, the Knicks don’t have as good a player as Embiid’s been for Philly. We’re just not a winning team. Anyone who thinks we build around a combination consisting of player two years away from being washed up (Melo) and another player two years away from assuming full time allstar status (KP) is fooling themselves.

    You’re ignoring my argument but whatever. Obviously we are not a winning team right now, but if you add a few of the right pieces, which we have the draft picks and cap flexibility to do, we could become one. The point is you have to get guys that will play D, not names like Rose who only get points, which you already have with Melo.

    djphan, I agree that in a vacuum the situation isn’t unsalvageable. The problem is salvaging it would require A LOT of front office savvy that Phil Jackson and co. have yet to demonstrate. These are the guys who thought Derrick Rose would help a team win more basketball games than Robin Lopez, and I have no faith in their ability to learn from their mistakes.

    So if, say, DRed was GM we could reasonably hold out hope. But I have no confidence that our current front office will be able to make the difficult moves necessary to fix this thing.

    Also I like KOQ a lot and he’s the best value we have on the team, but he has a player option for 2018-2019 that he’s certain to use. So he’ll basically be an expiring going into next year and we still won’t be good. Then we’ll either re-sign him at a number that makes him not valuable or let him walk for nada. So yeah if something appealing comes around for KOQ I say, sadly, that you have to look into it.

    You don’t build around KP, you look to build a team that will be a contender in like 3 years. Obviously, you hope KP is a big part of that, and you try to get players that compliment him, but he also might never be good enough.

    Obviously we are not a winning team right now, but if you add a few of the right pieces, which we have the draft picks and cap flexibility to do, we could become one.

    I love this line about the “right pieces.” Its always the same warped logic no engineer would ever accept – we can build on a shitty foundation so long as the tiling, roofing, and fixtures are alright. There are no right pieces available. This is an old, overpaid team being propped up by a young promising player. Let us have the intelligence and dignity to scrap this abomination and start from scratch the way Philly has.

    @220 if you actually go back and read what I wrote (see below), you will see that the very premise of my argument is based on the fact that Melo doesn’t want to go, so we can’t get rid of him:

    In post 200 I said: “Look, I like Melo a lot and even I realize we should trade him. But given that we can’t I don’t think we’re that screwed if we put the right guys around him.”

    Obviously the best case scenario is to blow the team up and tank, but we are stuck with Melo. I’m noting that it is still possible to build a good team around him.

    Shop Jennings around the league.

    If he can’t be moved I would release him right after the trade deadline and bring someone from the D-League.

    I would not trade Rose. He’s helping a lot our stealth tank.

    Let the contract expire and don’t even dare to answer his phone calls.

    @221

    So what is your argument? That because we can’t get rid of Melo, this team isn’t so bad? This team is bad with him as our star player. If we assumed more mediocre FA talent to cover up for his declining efficiency and defense, it would still be a bad team because he is a fading talent.

    @222

    But getting rid of Jennings would mean playing Ron more, which will also hurt our tank.

    I think the guy we should look to trade is KOQ. He’s good, has a terrific contract, and his absence will make our team worse.

    It’s interesting that the meeting with Phil & Melo was apparently ‘contentious’. Maybe you shouldn’t have given him that NTC you big dummy

    @225

    According to another source the meeting was actually business-like and cordial.

    But getting rid of Jennings would mean playing Ron more, which will also hurt our tank.

    I think the guy we should look to trade is KOQ. He’s good, has a terrific contract, and his absence will make our team worse.

    Ron is not that good and the D-Leaguer probably would get some PT too so no problem there.

    I love KOQ but I agree. We should move him. This is one of those sell high opportunities that we never take advantage.

    Serially, is there no way Melo wouldn’t consider being traded to the Clips now that CP3 is out for 2 months?

    The Cavs will get killed in the finals. Then they’ll be begging for Melo after he plays really well for us at the 4.

    Nerlens Noel hasn’t been very good?? He’s far and away the best player on Philly or the Knicks this year

    If by some wild chance a team were to offer a #1 pick in this draft for OQ or Lee, you do it. This is a great, deep draft coming up.

    Phil does like to collect draft choices, so maybe soon he’ll go into tank mode. I still think nothing will happen until February, but if/once the team falls 5 or 6 games back of the 8 seed, surely he’ll see the light.

    @229
    If the Clips come for Melo, and he decides to waive that NTC, then the Knicks must get Boston involved as a third team.

    Nerlens Noel hasn’t been very good?? He’s far and away the best player on Philly or the Knicks this year

    Few understand this. Certainly not anybody in Philadelphia

    The CP3 injury practically cancels the Clips as a trade option for Melo. I dunno…if we can make some moves that leaves us with a bunch of young guys around Melo and Noah, I’m ok with that.

    Agreed. If we can move Lee and some other guys for expiring deals and have Melo, KP, Noah, and the 2017 1st rounder to build around I wouldn’t be too upset. I’d be pretty pissed if we ended up with Miles Bridges, though.

    The Clips should be playing for any seed between #3 and #6 in the West, so they shouldn’t be concerned about a midseason injury to their best player. Right now, they’d likely have to go through Utah, Golden State, Houston/San Antonio and then Cleveland for a title.

    If they end up as a #2 seed (and bump SAS and HOU down one seeding), it’d be OKC, HOU, GSW/SAS, CLE. That is a rough, rough road to the Finals.

    Looking at this makes my asshole clench, as there is no way the Knicks have a chance in hell of being even relevant in the playoff picture. LA has a top-3 all-time PG, a great dunking/rebounding big in the prime of his career (as we also saw up-close during the 54-win season), a nice 3rd scoring option, and Blake Griffin, and they still are going to lose in the Semis.

    Silky, I like your trade idea. It’s one of the few reasonable ones I’ve seen posted here. If Minnesota wants to move Rubio and Lee is unhappy, then it might work for both teams. But then who starts at the two for the Knicks?

    Baker? That’d be gutsy by Hornacek, but he’s already benched Lee once. If we trade Lee we basically admit to punting the rest of the season anyway

    The Clippers are an interesting study. They have CP3, Blake, DJ, and JJ Reddick but their management sucks so bad that pretty much everyone else on that roster is a bad player. Wesley Johnson, Ray Felton, Jamal Crawford, Austin Rivers, What Remains of (Paul Pierce), and Marrese Speights? That’s terrible.

    The Knicks really just need a lot more athleticism and unselfishness on the roster. I’m convinced we would be a lot better if we could run down court and catch dunks, jump into the passing lane, recover on defense, and things of that nature. The only plus athletes we have right now are Porzingis and Rose. Everybody else on the roster is either, slow, skinny, or Ron Baker.

    I’m sorry, but I don’t think Holiday or Baker is enough for your starting 2 guard, so that worries me. On the other hand, Rubio would be a breath of fresh air for the Knicks guard crew. What if he started alongside Rose?

    Holiday is better than Lee at pretty much everything besides 3 point shooting. Not to mention that Lee is already showing signs of decline.We wouldn’t be losing much giving his minutes to Holiday/Ron.

    If the Wolves trade Rubio they’ll get way better offers than Courtney Lee’s undesirable contract. He’s not going to be a Knick. Stay focused on the tank.

    I mean, Lee is theoretically what the Wolves are looking for, but yeah, they can get better than Lee if they really want to trade Rubio.

    We could probably get something from the Bulls for Courtney Lee. If there’s one thing they need, it’s shooting.

    Boy, the Clippers are a cursed team. I think we are too but they have serious bad luck in franchise history

    I am sure the Wolves will shop Rubio until the deadline, looking for the best offer they can find. He has good advanced stats, but he’s not considered a scorer, and that may hurt the Wolves in the trade market.

    We could probably get something from the Bulls for Courtney Lee. If there’s one thing they need, it’s shooting.

    That I could see. The Bulls like to sign old players in a quest to be mediocre. Sort of like the Knicks. So it would be smart to try to deal with them.

    Yes, but who could the Bulls give us that they actually want and they would consider trading? They can’t just give us picks since we are both over the cap. We could ask for Butler, and throw in, say, Kuzminskas, which does work in the trade machine, but it’s obvious they wouldn’t go for something like that.

    They could give us Rondo+pick and we could just waive him and pay the $3m next year

    I don’t want Rondo anywhere near the Knicks, so I would waive him immediately. So we give them Lee and pay $3Million dollars that counts against next year’s salary cap for a draft pick? Even assuming they are willing to give up their 2017 first round pick (likely to be in the middle of a supposedly deep draft), that doesn’t seem like a good deal to me.

    I would add that we have become used to draft pick salaries that are so low that picks have become extremely valuable. But in the new CBA, rookie salaries are much higher. This will somewhat lessen the value of draft picks compared to existing players under contract.

    I don’t want Rondo anywhere near the Knicks, so I would waive him immediately. So we give them Lee and pay $3Million dollars that counts against next year’s salary cap for a draft pick? Even assuming they are willing to give up their 2017 first round pick (likely to be in the middle of a supposedly deep draft), that doesn’t seem like a good deal to me.

    That extra $3m shouldn’t factor into the equation. We’ll still have a lot of space but more importantly we really need to be done chasing after expensive free agents for a while anyway. I wouldn’t expect much more than a mid 1st round pick for Lee.

    A mid first for Lee and 3m cap hit would be a coup

    I disagree, but reasonable minds may certainly differ on this point. Think of it this way. Mozgov, a role player of a center was worth two first round picks from the Cavaliers. Lee is certainly equivalent to this.

    Boy, the Clippers are a cursed team. I think we are too but they have serious bad luck in franchise history

    Maybe, but having a bench of Crawford, Rivers, Speights and a 39-year-old Pierce reeks more of “bad design” than “bad luck.” “Bad luck” is your all-time Point God going down for 6-8 weeks with a thumb injury. “Bad design” is paying Austin Rivers $10M+ to take his minutes while he’s down.

    I agree about the Clippers. They’ve been in win now mode for a while and their bench has paid the price.

    I disagree, but reasonable minds may certainly differ on this point. Think of it this way. Mozgov, a role player of a center was worth two first round picks from the Cavaliers. Lee is certainly equivalent to this.

    Dude was making $4.5 million and the picks are pretty heavily protected. Plus doing business with the Cavs is a different animal, they have no regard for distant future (which is fine).

    Lee has been traded for PJ Hairston and two second round picks when he was an upcoming free agent, but he has also been traded for Jeryd Bayless straight up, when he was three years younger and signed to a cheap deal for two more years. So if we’re looking at Lee precedent, it’s all over the place.

    In today’s market, $4.5 m is probably the equivalent of $9 million. It’s still a little less than Lee is making, but not so much. I will concede that if there is some draft pick the Knicks really want, like they apparently did with Jerian Grant, It would be worth trading Lee for that, but we have to wait for the draft to do that. And Lee is definitely more valuable than Hardaway was, so we should get a better pick or more picks than we did for THJ. I am not saying this is easy to do, but it’s fair to set this as a target. It’s not like trading Lee now or at the end of the year is going to make a large difference to the Knicks future.

    Let me propose something different. The Sixers are weak at guard. They have a lot of talent, but it’s concentrated on big men. They also have oodles of picks to trade and they have cap room, so you don’t have to match salaries. At the end of the season, trade Lee straight up for a 2017 first round pick and a 2017 second round pick.

    Jesus, Jokic is becoming the best damn big to coming into the NBA the past two years. I can’t believe how fucking good he’s been. The positive news is that his dominance is propelling the Nuggets to one less win than us after defeating the Lakers. Our tank situation improved well in fact with the Mavericks, Heat and Nuggets winning tonight.

    THJ was on a rookie deal and was exponentially younger. These things matter. If you’re expecting a big haul for 31 year old, expensive, mediocre Courtney Lee you’re going to be very disappointed. Frankly, I’d be shocked if we could even get Chicago’s first rounder for him. There is zero chance Philly surrenders their top-8 pick for him.

    We differ in our opinion of Lee. He’s not expensive in today’s market, and he’s good for a team looking for veteran help, especially somebody who can shoot threes. Of course some teams are looking for youth, but some teams aren’t. Honestly, I don’t really see the need to trade him.

    It makes me so sad that Denver may have picked the best player in that draft at 41

    I’d take him over KP probably

    It makes me so sad that Denver may have picked the best player in that draft at 41

    I’d take him over KP probably

    And to think that he wasn’t getting a ton of burn…EARLIER THIS SEASON. Coaches can be so dumb sometimes, even otherwise smart guys like Malone.

    Brian, I think that might have been part of a stealth tank to land a replacement for Mudiay in this summer’s draft. I mean only 9 players had a WS/48 > .180 in their rookie year in >1000mp: mj, magic, bird, the admiral, duncan… and Jokic and Magic were the youngest on that list.

    The thing with Jokic is that the Nuggets are smart enough to know not to overuse him. They’ve just begun giving him major starter minutes after barely playing him. So now he’s nice and rested at 24 minutes per game.

    Shit like this is the difference between a team that plans to develop talent smartly and a team like ours which overuses its young stud to support an over-the-hill, washed up squad.

    It could also be that Jokic started figuring things out about what he was supposed to do on the court and then got more playing time.

    Jokic played the same in limited minutes as he has since he’s gotten more minutes. And this was following a historic rookie season. It was either dumb coaching or, as Zanzibar noted, some sort of weird stealth tanking thing.

    Here’s what Malone said early in the season about why he wasn’t playing Jokic more:

    “You guys got to understand, he’s not going to be the same player he was last year. Gallo was out, Wilson Chandler was out. Last two months of the season we played our young guys, we played them 35 minutes a night almost. We’re healthy, we have guys playing, so everybody stop expecting Nikola Jokic to be something he’s not. I think it’s unfair to him.”

    Since Jokic is pretty much precisely the same player he was the previous year (just even better), then other than some kind of stealth tanking deal, that’s an awfully dumb comment by Malone.

    Mensa material here, sir.

    And what do you know, I’m an actual member and I’m a realist.

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