Knicks Morning News (2016.10.19)

  • [NYTimes] Jury Hears Closing Arguments in Derrick Rose Case
    (Wednesday, October 19, 2016 2:33:48 AM)

    A woman who has sued Rose and two others is not just seeking a payday, her lawyer said.

  • [NYTimes] On College Football: Big 12’s Stasis Preserves a Broader Status Quo
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 7:27:04 PM)

    The Big 12 Conference’s decision not to expand from 10 teams had an impact even on programs that weren’t bidding for membership, like Middle Tennessee State.

  • [NYDN] Kaepernick talked to Melo before anthem protest began
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:18:03 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony has a message for Colin Kaepernick: Don’t give up the fight!

  • [NYDN] Derrick Rose will start in Knicks opener… on one condition
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:13:18 PM)

    Derrick Rose’s legal troubles won’t keep him out of the starting lineup assuming the Knicks point guard is able to do this one thing.

  • [NYDN] Atty. call Derrick Rose, pals ‘sexual deviants’ as case closes
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 7:35:43 PM)

    Lawyers for a California woman accusing Derrick Rose and his friends of gang rape closed their case Tuesday.

  • [NYDN] Charles Barkley says he knows the key to the Knicks’ season
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 4:14:47 PM)

    Charles Barkley was optimistic when asked about the Knicks Tuesday night.

  • [NYDN] Knicks, Jeff Hornacek get no love from NBA’s GMs
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:21:12 AM)

    In the annual survey released Tuesday by NBA.com, zero GMs picked the Knicks to finish in the top 4 of the Eastern Conference.

  • [NY Newsday] Derrick Rose rape trial lawyers call accuser a liar in closing argument
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 9:09:00 PM)

    Lawyers for Derrick Rose and two friends say the woman accusing them of rape is a liar trying to trick jurors with her tears.

  • [NY Newsday] Charles Barkley believes a healthy Joakim Noah a key to Knicks’ playoff hopes
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 6:30:00 PM)

    If Joakim Noah can stay healthy — and that’s a big if, considering his history — he could very well be the key to making the Knicks a playoff team, Charles Barkley said Tuesday.

  • [NY Newsday] Derrick Rose likely to start in Knicks’ season opener against Cavs
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 3:57:00 PM)

    Derrick Rose has been away from the Knicks for two weeks, but if he can get a few practices in before the start of the regular season he likely will start opening night in Cleveland.

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: The absence of Derrick Rose
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 11:54:49 PM)

  • [SNY Knicks] Early officially re-signs with Knicks, expects to start season in D-League
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 2:20:02 PM)

    The Knicks have re-signed their 2014 second round pick Cleanthony Early, who is expected to start the season with the team’s D-League affiliate in Westchester.

  • [SNY Knicks] Several Knicks players recognized in survey of GMs
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 2:15:33 PM)

    Several Knicks players, including Carmelo Anthony, Kristaps Porzingis and more, were recognized in the annual general manager survey.

  • [SNY Knicks] Anthony fighting for increased salaries, ‘rebranding’ in D-League
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 12:00:40 PM)

    Interesting and insightful words from Carmelo Anthony, who also serves as the Vice President of the NBA’s Players Association when asked about the NBA’s Development League.

  • [SNY Knicks] Melo acting as mentor, understands pressure put on Porzingis
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 9:07:53 AM)

    Forward Kristaps Porzingis had a strong rookie season with the Knicks, but Carmelo Anthony hopes fans and media alike give the budding star room to improve in his sophomore season, according to ESPN New York’s Ian Begley

  • [ESPN] Wednesday’s Knicks News: Noah key to the season says Barkley
    (Wednesday, October 19, 2016 5:26:42 AM)

    Wednesday’s Knicks News: Noah key to the season says Barkley

  • [ESPN] Jury to begin deliberations in D. Rose rape case
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:57:16 PM)

    Jury to begin deliberations in D. Rose rape case

  • [ESPN] Stuart Goldfarb, Carmelo Anthony’s business partner, on the duo’s tech connection
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 9:00:58 AM)

    Stuart Goldfarb, Carmelo Anthony’s business partner, on the duo’s tech connection

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose verdict won’t end fiasco for Knicks’ new coach
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:37:34 PM)

    This was going to be a hard enough job anyway. Jeff Hornacek already was going to have to deal with the massaging of egos, with the development of Kristaps Porzingis, with the aging of Carmelo Anthony, with the natural wariness a new coach and a new approach always brings a new locker room. He already…

  • [NYPost] Rose’s lawyer points to potential money woes, calls rape accuser ‘a liar’
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 7:32:43 PM)

    LOS ANGELES — Race played a major role at the close of the Derrick Rose sex attack trial Tuesday — as the NBA star’s lawyer said the woman accusing him of gang rape used ugly stereotypes about young black men acting like “sexual deviants” to try and prove her $21.5 million civil case. “Those adjectives…

  • [NYPost] Charles Barkley refuses to BS about these Knicks risks
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 6:43:43 PM)

    A new coach and a host of new players have done little to alter what NBA Hall of Famer Charles Barkley thinks of the Nets. “I can say the Nets are the second best team in New York,” Barkley said before being honored at the 26th Broadcasting and Cable Hall of Fame Awards on Tuesday…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo’s protest warning to Kaepernick: You’d be ‘f–ked’
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 4:16:53 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony is committed to going the distance with his social activism efforts, and he strongly advises Colin Kaepernick to do the same. In a sit-down interview with ESPN’s Howard Bryant published Tuesday, the 32-year-old Knicks forward detailed the conversation he had with Kaepernick the very night the quarterback’s decision to sit for the national anthem before…

  • [NYPost] Hornacek hedges on Game 1 lineup with Derrick Rose in limbo
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 1:15:46 PM)

    Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek acknowledged it won’t be “ideal” going into the regular season without having played their starting five, and he hedged ever so slightly on Derrick Rose starting in one week on opening night in Cleveland. There’s diminishing hope Rose will be ready to play in either Wednesday’s preseason game in Boston or…

  • [NYPost] Rose rape accuser breaks down during final testimony
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 10:30:45 AM)

    LOS ANGELES — Derrick Rose’s accuser broke into tears after she took the witness stand for the last time Tuesday ahead of jury deliberations in her $21.5 million civil rape case, testifying that she’d always resisted the NBA star’s requests for orgies. “Did you ever have group sex with Mr. Rose prior to Aug. 26,…

  • [NYPost] NBA GMs pay revamped Knicks a big compliment
    (Tuesday, October 18, 2016 7:29:36 AM)

    Most improved team? The Knicks only can go up after the last two seasons of horror under Knicks president Phil Jackson, and the NBA’s general managers agree. In the annual GM poll, the Knicks finished third in voting for most-improved team for 2016-17, receiving 10 percent of the vote. Minnesota, under new coach Tom Thibodeau,…

  • 178 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.10.19)”

    In reference to the Jennings vs. Grant conversation from the last thread —

    Grant was a 23 year old rookie. There’s been a lot of ink spilled on Knickerblogger pages about how little improvement one can expect once a player gets to his mid-20s. Grant had a WS/48 of 0.030 at age 23, which is <50% Jennings's WORST WS/48, even as a 20 year old rookie with zero college experience and 1 terrible year playing in Italy, or last season when he was recovering from a torn Achilles. And much as Grant was playing better later in the year, Jennings's trend lines were improving also until his injury.

    And re: locking in players on rookie contracts. That's definitely a useful thing if players are outperforming their contracts. But what if they're not, or at least not markedly so? Every year there are 4th-guard type of guys available on short term cheap contracts at the end of free agency. Seth Curry, Brandon Jennings, even Langston Galloway for instance. I think teams would rather have these guys on $3-5MM cheap 1-2 year contracts — guys who have proven at least average productivity, ie. a bird-in-hand on a cheap/short/tradeable contract. I think the major benefit of the rookie scale contract is the potential of vastly outperforming that long-term contract — but at age 23-24, with a full year of watching him in practice, it’s hard to imagine that Grant will suddenly turn into a real lead guard that would prompt “wow, that dude is SO outperforming his contract” types of discussion.

    Bulls scooping MCW seems to suggest they also have concerns over Grants viability as a rotation level player

    why are we still talking about this? We don’t talk about Toney Douglas anymore

    Grant was a 23 year old rookie. There’s been a lot of ink spilled on Knickerblogger pages about how little improvement one can expect once a player gets to his mid-20s. Grant had a WS/48 of 0.030 at age 23, which is <50% Jennings's WORST WS/48, even as a 20 year old rookie with zero college experience and 1 terrible year playing in Italy, or last season when he was recovering from a torn Achilles. And much as Grant was playing better later in the year, Jennings's trend lines were improving also until his injury.

    So what you are saying is that a high basketball IQ rookie with a strong work ethic that was playing in a system that stifled his game is unlikely to improve much at 23 & beyond even if he gets into a system that accents his skill set and keeps working hard, but a player whose biggest problem seems to be making foolish plays was showing sign of improvement at 25. Therefore the 2nd will be better than the first.

    How about this line of reasoning?

    If Jennings could show a bit of improvement at 25 (before getting hurt), then someone with a higher basketball IQ moving into a better system for him should be able to improve at least as much or more.

    why are we still talking about this? We don’t talk about Toney Douglas anymore

    Mostly because I’m not buying the Jennings hype. I don’t think Jennings had a particularly good pre season. However, since everyone is focusing on the occasional great play he makes they are overrating the “net” of everything he does.

    I brought up Grant as a comparison and said it would not shock me if he winds up as the better all around backup before it’s over. I don’t think that’s a particularly controversial view even if it turns out I am wrong.

    If Jerian Grant had been drafted by any other team he’d be mocked constantly here

    I don’t think that’s a particularly controversial view even if it turns out I am wrong.

    The last 2 days refute this… no?

    If Jerian Grant had been drafted by any other team he’d be mocked constantly her

    I doubt anyone would talk much about him. Hezonja was worse than Grant and he was the 5th pick in a loaded draft and I don’t think anyone here talks about him very often. Grant was a mid first round pick who was not very good as a rookie. There’s nothing notable about that. He wasn’t exceptionally bad.

    As for Jennings, he’s a good bet to be better than Grant this year, and then he’s gone. So if Rose plays a bunch, we’ll win another game with Jennings over Grant. If Rose gets hurt maybe we get 3-4 more wins. I think the difference is meaningful since Rose has such an extensive injury history, but it does leave us with another hole to fill.

    Jennings will play well this year, and will deserve to be resigned. We will find someone to replace Rose after this year is over. We will be fine without Grant, IMHO.

    PS- I loved Grant in college, was my favorite player his senior year. I just did not see that guy on the knicks at all, which was disappointing.

    This is my case for why the Knicks offense will be much better this year than the last 2 years:
    Judging by preseason so far, looks like the Knicks will be trying to get more easy buckets via transition situations, and also take more 3pt shots. These two factors alone should have the offense looking better as well as score more points per game. Now add at least one pg(Jennings) that can distribute the ball and break down a defense, you have a possibly very good offense.
    And finally all these things add up to less iso-ball and a more efficient Melo.

    Hezonja was 20 last season and displayed elite athleticism and league average 3pt%. I think he’s definitely still worth talking about. Rookie years are often throwaways for guys that young.

    @jkhar

    I’m not as optimistic as you, but I definitely see some of what you’re saying. Melo was butter in those transition threes, and the lack of them the last couple seasons hurt his efficiency. I don’t think he’s ever getting back to 56% TS% just because he’s older and doesn’t have the same stamina, lift or speed as a few years back, but I do at this point expect an uptick to his efficiency relative to the last couple seasons.

    Every team says they want to run. Not every team has the roster to really take advantage of it. I think the Knicks’ projected starting lineup will not be an effective running team and will struggle badly offensively no matter what the team runs.

    However, I could definitely see the team running effectively with lineups that don’t include Rose, Noah or O’Quinn. I think we’ll see at some point due to how injury prone Rose and Noah are how much more effective the team is on offense without those two. I could see a lineup like this really surprising people:

    Jennings, Lee, Kuzminskas, Melo, Porzingis

    I could even see if Melo misses time Hernangomez playing alongside KP up front and performing better than most would expect.

    Noah is one of the best transition passing bigs of all-time and runs the floor extremely well. Are you kidding? Rose is best in transition.

    KP can run, and Melo is money on those transition 3s.

    The Knicks should be a great running team, but will they run enough?

    We didn’t pick Brandon Jennings and his $5m over Grant. We picked Rose and his $20m over Grant and Lopez.

    Yes agreed, in order to run, the personnel on the court has to be right. But I disagree about Noah, as far as I’ve seen, he is good at initiating the break after the rebound with his passing and has good ball handling skills. He also likes to run.

    Yea @16 you are right about that. But my opinion is we chose to not have Calderon as our PG, as he was a negative in his role for us all of last year. Calderon is not a completely bad player, unless he is your primary pg and ball handler/playmaker….and unless he has to guard the other team’s primary ball handler and playmaker. Can any one really dispute this?

    The Bulls were a wretched transition team last season. I don’t know if that’s scheme or what because I didn’t watch many Bulls games. They ran almost as infrequently as we did and were even worse at scoring on the break, at Rose was particularly awful.

    Porzingis was involved in more transition plays than any of our bigs last year but he was a lousy finisher. Good transition big men averaged around 1.3 PPP in transition-Kristaps had .95PPP. The only player we brought back who was a solid transition finisher last season was Lance.

    Of course, I’m not sure we had anyone aside from Langston who could start fast breaks, so it’s entirely possible we were missing some high percentage breakaway chances that other teams generate and that will improve this year.

    The Bulls played at a faster pace with Rose than without him, but their backup guards were terrible. Also think Butler was their only good transition player last year as Noah was hurt for most of it and came off the bench.

    I agree that the Knicks will get some easy buckets because they should be able to push the ball more, but I have to think some of that is going to be offset by the loss of some of the team’s more efficient offensive players, who were replaced by less efficient ones.

    The Knicks’ leaders in eFG% last year were:
    1. Jose Calderon .552
    2. Robin Lopez .539
    3. Arron Afflalo .500
    4. Lance Thomas .500
    5. Derrick Williams .488

    Their leaders in TS% were:
    1. Lopez .574
    2. Calderon .571
    3. Thomas .557
    4. Williams .550
    5. Afflalo .531

    Of course four of those five are gone. The primary replacements for those guys are Joakim Noah, Derrick Rose, Courtney Lee and I guess Mindaugas Kuzminskas? That is a lot of makes being converted into misses.

    Derrick Rose: .448 eFG%, .479 TS%
    Joakim Noah (2014-2015 season): .445 eFG%, .482 TS%
    Courtney Lee: .516 eFG%, .551 TS%
    Mindaugas Kuzminskas: ????

    Lee’s a little bit more efficient than Afflalo and he’s a better overall player because he’s a better defender but he is a low-usage guy on offense so his shooting doesn’t move the needle a ton.

    So sure, they might get some more easy buckets because of an improved transition game. But a whole lot of other high percentage buckets just walked out the door. Noah can’t really finish around the rim well anymore and Derrick Rose is an empty possession creator. For this offense to be good they’re going to need Derrick Rose to play a hell of a lot better than he has played in a long time.

    In Rose’s last two seasons he has a combined .485 TS% with a USG% over 30. If he plays anything like that again, this is probably not going to be a real good offense.

    I mean, I just can’t see how a point guard who lacks the ability to dribble the ball beneath the 3-pt line without turning it over is going to have any impact on the quality of shots his teammates get.

    I think you are looking at those numbers in a vacuum though and not considering the circumstances.
    Can you really point to calderon’s TS and eFG% to make any argument that those numbers translated to making the Knicks offense good or efficient? And that with him being gone it will make the knicks offense worse and less efficient?
    If I remember correctly, Calderon was always hesitant to shoot, even when he knew he was the best shooter on the damn court. Maybe he was trying to preserve his precious TS or eFG%
    I think his stats made him look better than he actually was.

    I mean, I just can’t see how a point guard who lacks the ability to dribble the ball beneath the 3-pt line without turning it over is going to have any impact on the quality of shots his teammates get.

    And this isn’t offset at all by the fact that the point guard burns shitloads of possessions with his inefficient chucking.

    If I remember correctly, Calderon was always hesitant to shoot, even when he knew he was the best shooter on the damn court. Maybe he was trying to preserve his precious TS or eFG%
    I think his stats made him look better than he actually was.

    Good, so instead of having the guy who is good at shooting but is hesitant to shoot, we have the guy who is fucking terrible at shooting but just blazes away anyway, and so the offense should be a lot better.

    Look, I’m not saying Derrick Rose’s penetration won’t create easy buckets for some other players. I’m just saying a whole lot of that sure seems to be offset by the fact that, you know, the very same Derrick Rose misses a lot of shots. I don’t think some people are really grasping how detrimental it is to an offense to have a guy with a .485 TS% and a 30+ USG% out there wasting loads of possessions. That’s like taking a guy with a .280 OBP and making him your leadoff hitter. You’re giving the opposition lots of free outs.

    JK, if the good shooter is passing up shots wouldn’t that mean those shots are likely to be taken by lesser shooters, in which case if those shooters are no better than Rose isn’t it a wash from a team standpoint?

    Hopefully the adjustments on offense, and new coach, better personnel can help to correct this.
    Hey, the best time to be optimistic is right before the season starts, so please allow me this brief moment. Go Knicks!

    Of course four of those five are gone. The primary replacements for those guys are Joakim Noah, Derrick Rose, Courtney Lee and I guess Mindaugas Kuzminskas? That is a lot of makes being converted into misses.

    Not really. Those 4 guys took 32 shots a game. Melo and Porzingis alone took 30 a game last year…..I expect that number to get closer to 36 this year. Lee and Jennings need to hit 3s at league average and we will be fine. Add to that the passing from Noah that will = easy baskets and also Billy doing the same as well as operating in the post. Rose may shoot poorly but hopefully his rim attacking increases the teams ftr

    Is it too soon to say that all this Calderon hate is irrational and the he was the epitome of a break even league average player?

    The offense ran much better on the floor with him regardless if his shot selection counted as cherry picking. The defense performed worse. He was not our main problem, even though he contributed to our total inability to push the pace

    It is not hate….Calderon in a different role is still serviceable. Just don’t make him your starting pg, and surround him with other non play-making players…

    I’ve said it before, it won’t take many 2016 version of Derrick Rose games before people are nostalgic for Calderon. There are worse players to have than a 41% 3PT shooter who’s still a decent playmaker and doesn’t turn it over much. Yes, he is very limited and sucks on defense, but we may find ourselves wishing Rose would do some self-limiting on offense, and all indications are he’s just as dreadful on defense.

    The primary reason the Knicks weren’t very good last year is because their offense was bad (24/30 in ORtg). Seeing as how it was rather significantly better with Calderon on the floor, it’s hard to argue losing him constitutes addition by subtraction.

    Calderon created more assist chances for his teammates than either Jennings or Rose did last year. Maybe that had something to do with our offense, or maybe Hornacek will be able to use the skills that Rose & Jennings have that Calderon clearly lacks in a better way, but you just can’t assume that either one is going to be an upgrade over Calderon in terms of assist chances.

    I’ve said it before, it won’t take many 2016 version of Derrick Rose games before people are nostalgic for Calderon

    Did the Houston game?

    JK, if the good shooter is passing up shots wouldn’t that mean those shots are likely to be taken by lesser shooters, in which case if those shooters are no better than Rose isn’t it a wash from a team standpoint?

    Yeah, but many of those shots undoubtedly went to players who WERE better shooters than Rose. In fact, the overwhelming majority of them. Rose has a .449 eFG% over his last two seasons. That would have ranked him below every Knick last year except Jerian Grant and Kevin Seraphim. Same goes for his TS%.

    Literally nothing will make me nostalgic for Calderon. Rose sucking ass and Jennings being awful wouldn’t make me miss Calderon’s shitty play, it would just make me dislike all of them equally.

    If he was a breakeven league average player some team would have taken him for free instead of the Bulls needing to attach two second round picks to him for the Lakers to get interested.

    Yeah, but many of those shots undoubtedly went to players who WERE better shooters than Rose. In fact, the overwhelming majority of them. Rose has a .449 eFG% over his last two seasons. That would have ranked him below every Knick last year except Jerian Grant and Kevin Seraphim. Same goes for his TS%.

    But that’s besides the point right?…and has nothing to do with Calderon’s value. Its a completely uncorrelated variable.

    If he was a breakeven league average player some team would have taken him for free instead of the Bulls needing to attach two second round picks to him for the Lakers to get interested.

    Or NBA teams don’t think he’s a break even player even though he is or they recognize that at his age it’s likely he’ll be worse and/or injured next year, or they would prefer players slightly worse than jose who have a chance on improving.

    Wasn’t there a study a few years back on the value of shots early in the clock? I think the difference this year is going to to be less about actual transition buckets than secondary breaks and quick hitting pnr’s- initiating the offense before the defense is fully matched up. Waiting ten seconds before initiating any kind of offense- like the Knicks’ guards (especially Calderon) did last year is the kiss of death. The only guard who would reliably push was Sasha and he would pull up just past half court. Both Jennings and Rose will push and neither is an egregious turnover guy so I’m pretty hopeful that despite the Knicks lack of shooting they’ll have an increase in efg and get to the line a little more. Rose has never played with a guy like Melo- a guy whose rep as a scorer definitely outweighs his own so I’m hopeful he defers enough that even if he’s sub-.500 TS% he won’t derail the entire offense.

    Or NBA teams don’t think he’s a break even player even though he is or they recognize that at his age it’s likely he’ll be worse and/or injured next year, or they would prefer players slightly worse than jose who have a chance on improving.

    Right, so he’s not breakeven. Thanks.

    WS/48 .096
    BPM -0.1
    Real plus minus .22

    That says roughly break even to me. I don’t think using a trade is a good way to evaluate what a guy did last year.

    What was up with Carton accusing the pipe of being racist towards Jeremy Lin? Can you do that?

    Wow – Rose NOT liable on all counts.

    Do all the early judger people here want to post a mea culpa?

    Not that I take any joy in this whatsoever. The whole episode was unseemly at least in my own worldview. But those who were writing him off as guilty from the start were doing a little bit of that “rushing to judgment”.

    Someone here posted that it seemed like those that thought Rose was not guilty also seemed to be those that think he might regain his previous basketball form. That probably is/was true. At least from my point of view, it’s not because we’re delusional – it’s that we don’t believe in making quick judgements based on incomplete info.

    I stand by the reasonableness of my argument while simultaneously acknowledging that I was indeed wrong.

    That being said, this leaves everyone involved pretty slimy, innocent or guilty.

    the biggest difference between this year’s team and last year’s team is going to be shot selection… that’s primarily why rose and jennings are so inefficient…. we did replace afflalo but they are going to get less quality looks and more of them than calderon and grant….

    I haven’t logged in to post in forever, but I had to say that my body is ready for the post DoeVsRose discussion here… *grabs popcorn*

    GREAT news for Derrick Rose and the Knicks.

    You gotta feel great for someone who knew he was innocent and went to court to clear his name instead of taking the easy way out and settling.

    I assume some heartfelt apologies are in order from the many, many people here who rushed to judgement. But this is Knickerblogger, so… not holding my breath.

    Someone here posted that it seemed like those that thought Rose was not guilty also seemed to be those that thought he might regain his previous basketball form. That probably is/was true. At least from my point of view, it’s not because we’re delusional – it’s that we don’t believe in making quick judgements based on incomplete info.

    It was me who posted it so point taken. I still don’t think he’ll play well enough to justify losing assets for, but we’re very close to the season so no need to speculate, we’ll know in a month or two.

    I think if you thought Rose was guilty before today, you probably still think he is guilty, even after the verdict.

    Speaking only for myself there’s a significant gap between what may be legally considered rape and where I personally draw the line on acceptable behavior vis a vis issues of consent. From the facts of the case as I’ve understood them I don’t feel bad at all for judging Rose to be a scumbag in how the situation went down and wishing a guy like that didn’t play for the basketball team I root for. I’m not at all surprised he was found not guilty but if he “feels great” about what happened that night and what came out of it then he has some very serious issues.

    Speaking only for myself there’s a significant gap between what may be legally considered rape and where I personally draw the line on acceptable behavior vis a vis issues of consent. From the facts of the case as I’ve understood them I don’t feel bad at all for judging Rose to be a scumbag in how the situation went down and wishing a guy like that didn’t play for the basketball team I root for. I’m not at all surprised he was found not guilty but if he “feels great” about what happened that night and what came out of it then he has some very serious issues

    How is this all on him though? Did you not see where the young lady was mad at him for not boning her other friend. These people were clearly engaging in “scumbag behavior” together.

    As an experienced trial attorney in federal court, a jury returning a verdict in less than four hours with that many defendants (3) and that many counts (3) tells me that none of the jurors found the accuser credible. Without seeing the body language, hearing the tones of voice and perceiving the other indicators of credibility myself, I have no way to make an independent assessment.

    @58 I agree that text and the withholding of that text in discovery was a problem for the plaintiff both in an evidentiary sense and as a horrific legal strategy.

    enjoy it, that’s the best defense you’ll see from rose all year. too soon?

    whoo boy this take is blazing hot

    Personally I don’t think I would’ve been able to watch the Knicks this year if Rose was found guilty and was able to play.

    He’s not a guy I would want to associate with at all but I will happily cheer him on as long as he wears a Knicks uniform.

    You gotta feel great for someone who knew he was innocent and went to court to clear his name instead of taking the easy way out and settling.

    I agree completely.
    We’ll never know for 100% sure what actually happened that night, but the fact that Jane Doe and her lawyers couldn’t even clear the much lower bar of proof for a civil case (and as ephus wrote, had all counts and all defendants non-liable within a matter of a few hours) makes me feel pretty comfortable with the idea that Rose basically did nothing more than participate in group sex, which lots and lots of people in this country and world do. Hard for me to judge what someone else does behind closed doors. My guess is that pretty much every NBA player has either participated in group sex already or has been offered it, so if we’re going to say he’s a scumbag and we can’t root for him, then we literally should all find another thing to burn hours and hours of our lives watching.

    I don’t know what happened in Doe’s apartment. Only the principles do. From the beginning there were two things that tugged at me. On the one hand I think that lots of athletes are spoiled, misguided and privileged. They live in a world that is very different from us. Yeah, Rose could have done really bad stuff and thought he could get away with it. On the other hand they are also potential victims of gold diggers. I guess that I would have been a good juror because I can see scenarios where Doe could be the villain or victim and where Rose could be the villain or victim.

    After following the proceedings in the media, I started to be convinced that Rose was being victimized by a gold digger. There’s no denying that if I behaved like that at his age that my mother would have thrown a hot iron at me. But I really don’t care where an athlete puts his pecker. Thankfully it’s over and we’re on to basketball now.

    It’s pretty unhinged to assume someone who couldn’t physically prove they were raped was lying when they said they were.

    Anyhow, I have a non-legal question. If Hornacek is waiting for Rose to get back to install his offense, what have the Knicks been practicing the last week or so?

    It’s pretty unhinged to assume someone who couldn’t physically prove they were raped was lying when they said they were.

    What?

    Obviously a lot of people feel differently but if a woman ever wept recounting a time that I had sex with her, I would feel absolutely beyond awful and carry that guilt with me for the rest of my life, regardless of what I thought had transpired between us, or whether I was found innocent in a court of law.

    Also posing for pictures with jurors is such a bad look for Rose. What was his attorney thinking letting him do that?

    Also posing for pictures with jurors is such a bad look for Rose. What was his attorney thinking letting him do that?

    Case was over no?

    @58

    These people were clearly engaging in “scumbag behavior” together.

    That sums up my feelings succinctly.

    Obviously a lot of people feel differently but if a woman ever wept recounting a time that I had sex with her, I would feel absolutely beyond awful and carry that guilt with me for the rest of my life, regardless of what I thought had transpired between us, or whether I was found innocent in a court of law.

    What if she was lying?

    I’d be curious to see what the verdict sheet actually said. Reporting on litigation and what it actually means are frequently two very different things.
    That being said, I rushed to judgment after the deposition transcripts were released. I guess this case goes alongside the Duke Lacrosse case

    Glad the case is over. So many superstars are actually highly flawed people…Tiger, Kobe, Vick, Ben, etc. And then there’s the owners. I don’t get too wrapped up in that shit…my sports obsession is one step removed from a video game or a hit tv series for me. I’ve never been an autograph hound or memorabilia collector. Any positive character stuff (like Kristaps and the latest from Melo) is gravy.

    It’s good now we have the guy who is likely to be much worse than Jose Calderon back in the fold.

    I still don’t like Derrick Rose, never have. I’ll try to root for him as a Knick; maybe he’ll be a more efficient, less selfish player this year. Yeah, right…

    As someone said in an earlier post, he strikes me as the poster boy for the pampered, enabled, entitled athlete. I’ve taught a few of them over the years.

    Perhaps this experience will mature him a bit. I seriously doubt it, but maybe.

    However, having said that, I wasn’t on the jury, but did read a fair bit about the case. Doe’s case did not sound credible to me. Perhaps it is a big leap to call her a “gold digger,” but I believe she perjured herself in this case out of a sense of vengeance and perhaps greed.

    A few posters here have, at least, serious egg on their faces about this in their prejudging of this, but I doubt any will concede that. I’ll be happy to stand corrected on that, though.

    This is the way I’ll sum up my feelings about Rose.

    There are certain players that are hard for me to root for. Rose is one of them. I prefer rooting for high character and high basketball IQ players.

    No Melo tonight!

    I’m guessing that Ndour needs to show something tonight or will be cut.

    The icing on the “this woman is going to lose this case” cake was when she called her former boss to the stand and he testified that she said she was raped and that she had a bandage wrapped around her arm the morning of the incident. Personally, I cannot imagine any decent human being who would have an employee stay at work after she tells them that SHE HAD BEEN RAPED AND BURNT. Then there was the whole “I called my ex-boyfriend, who broke up with me because I wasn’t sexy enough, to my apartment after 2AM so we could watch Netflix” line she threw out.

    The pathological liar line her ex roommate threw out made sense. She lies to her family about being a devout Christian women when she’s actually out in LA banging basketball players. And there’s nothing wrong with banging ball players, but the trend of lies with the family plus the lies in her deposition and texts painted an ugly picture for the woman.

    Good for Derrick Rose. Good for the Knicks. Now we can forget about this case.

    enjoy it, that’s the best defense you’ll see from rose all year. too soon?

    +1

    As for Rose, I am with Stratomatic. Just tough to get excited about rooting for Derrick Rose, whatever the outcome.

    More hilarity. Trying to watch the game on ESPN via Sling TV. Getting audio, but no video. Go Sling!

    So it’s official: Derrick Rose isn’t financially liable for being unlikeable.

    I just hope we have a different jury when we bring our civil case against reub.

    A juror named John echoed what Jared said, telling reporters there was “no true evidence.” The lies Jane Doe told in her text messages were a factor for John, as well as her asking Rose for money. “That was questionable for me,” he said.

    Jared said he doesn’t watch sports, while John said he did but wasn’t a Rose fan. After speaking with reporters, both went back inside to get their pictures taken with Rose and his attorney Mark Baute.

    Un-fucking-believable. I really can’t believe this happened.

    I’m not going to say they’re playing better than they did the other night with Melo.

    Obviously a lot of people feel differently but if a woman ever wept recounting a time that I had sex with her, I would feel absolutely beyond awful and carry that guilt with me for the rest of my life, regardless of what I thought had transpired between us, or whether I was found innocent in a court of law.

    I would love to live in your almost comically naive world, where nobody would ever do something like fake cry on a witness stand for TWENTY MILLION DOLLARS.

    @114 With ESPN and SlingTV not working for me tonight, I’m now watching the Celtics feed. Interesting to hear their comments vs. the usual Knicks stuff.

    @117. They’ve generally been complimentary of the Knicks (I guess they have to win the Knicks leading). They did mock Jennings a bit early on, pointing out his career under 40% FG. They praised KP.

    Oh, they also wondered about how Jennings would get his shots after Rose comes back from his “injury.” I guess we can’t blame them for that mistake!

    OQ has been excellent tonight

    So have sash and baker

    O’Quinn had 9 points, 7 rebounds 1 block 1 assist and 0 TOs in 10 minutes. That’s pretty good from a back-up big man, no?

    I fail how to see 9 points on 4-7 shooting, 7 rebounds (5 of them offensive), an assist, a block, and non-Brandon-Jennings defense in 10 minutes is bad play.

    Ainge’s inability to draft is going to cost his Celtics a title. You can’t trade your way to the top. I say all of that to point out that Jaylen Brown is never going to be a good NBA basketball player. He is good at nothing but running and jumping.

    DRed beat me to it.

    And the Celtics bench mob is overmatched against our Latvian basketball idol

    We are going to regret not giving Derrick Williams the Lance Thomas contract. I promise you we will regret that decision.

    @137
    How do you know that he would take it? No being a smartass, just curious.

    BTW, the Celtics announcers LOVE Jalen Brown. FWIW.

    I don’t know who Jordan Mickey is, but he needs to rethink bringing that weak shit inside.

    People gonna sour on Jennings so fast if he does this shit in the real season

    He’s been playing like crap all pre season (just like I’ve been saying), but because he’s made some terrific highlight plays people have been raving about him.

    Who really thinks that they’re going to dunk on an in position Porzingis besides, like, Deandre Jordan?

    I give vets the benefit of the doubt in the preseason-there’s no particular reason for Jennings to play all that hard. But that shit isn’t going to fly when the games count.

    @138, he probably wouldn’t have as he’s 25 years old compared to a guy like Lance who is a bit older. Looking at what he signed for in Miami compared to what we gave Lance, though, and I have to say that Lance’s propensity for missing jumpers makes me want D Will more and more every day.

    In LT’s defense though he was just as dreadful last pre-season and ended up playing decent ball for us in the regular season.

    Ron Baker is an NBA player. He is a reaction player that seems a step ahead most of the time. I really hope he sticks and gets a chance to earn a rotation spot.

    Sasha is in phenomenal shape. He may turn out to be a very important player off the bench.

    Celtics announcers quick to point out that the Knicks have 3 starters on the floor…
    🙂

    I feel like Ron Baker is sitting right next to Porzingis, just the two
    of them, in that Venn diagram of things we all agree on.

    I don’t understand how Brandon Jennings got so far as a basketball player without having a set shooting form. No two jumpers look the same with him, and that is exactly why he is so inefficient.

    I don’t understand how Brandon Jennings got so far as a basketball player without having a set shooting form. No two jumpers look the same with him, and that is exactly why he is so inefficient.

    That is one ugly ass shooting form. And the interesting part is that its not even the ugliest shot on this team as Noah shows.

    yeah it’s hard to see how someone can succeed with such arbitrary, inconsistent positioning. Sorry wrong channel.

    Hornacek strolled into men’s wearhouse and said “I wanna look like I work in the appliance department of a 1975 sears Roebuck”

    Plumlee messed around and made the team tonight, book it! I like the hustle and the size…

    Ron Baker is a Derek Fisher type guard that Phil Jackson loves. He does little of everything well and is smart about his on the floor.

    Offense didn’t look bad running through KP and he didn’t even have a good game from the perimeter.

    I find it hilarious how many people all of a sudden like rooting for high character guys, but will spend the next 8 months shitting on Melo because his TS% isn’t high enough. Or that I’d bet money those same people determined Melo was a selfish and self-centered person when he signed his max extension with the Knicks after forcing a trade here and re-signed on a max contract and have probably never admitted how fucking short-sighted and full of shit they were.

    Double-digit positive +/- for Lee (13), Tokoto (16), Noah (13), NDour (12), Kuzminskas (14), Baker (13) and Vujacic (24).
    KP only +5
    Jennings and Thomas only negatives with -3

    Who do we cut from this awesome team?

    OQuinn looks to be in great shape and was impressive tonight.

    Plumlee is very active.

    Same for NDour and he started to show his jump shot.

    Holiday gives them a long active 3 and D guy and is getting better every game.

    Baker is a god.

    Who’s left? Randle, Lou, and Tokoto. Randle has good potential and I would hate to lose him but how can he stay with the many players ahead of him? Tokoto even looked good tonight. I think Lou should go at this point.

    What do you think?

    Rose,CLee,Melo,KP,Noah
    Jennings,Vujacic,Thomas,O’Quinn,WilyH
    Baker,Holiday,Ndour,Kuzminskas,Amundson

    All the rest to the D-league (Tokoto, Randle, Plumlee, Baker)

    We can’t send Tokoto to the dleague-someone else has his rights (OKC?).

    I think the obvious guys to cut are Tokoto, Randle and Lou.

    DRed I agree with your cuts. However I’m greedy and worry about another team signing Randle because he has good potential and I’d like to find a way to keep him.

    I’d be really surprised if the cuts are anything other than what Dred said. The bigger issue is who’s actually going to be in the rotation- Holiday vs. Baker (or does Shasha get the back-up 2 nod despite playing mostly point during the preseason), Koq vs. Willy, where does Kuz slot in, etc… I think Kuz will struggle to get consistent minutes unless Lance completely craps the bed and Koq and Willy will both get a decent amount of minutes in the early going. Back-up 2 is completely up in the air; I really have no idea which way they’ll go though if I had to bet on who’ll wind up getting the most minutes early on I’d guess I’d say Sasha. And what’s really crazy to me is that I think he’s probably earned it.

    Ron Baker is not only going to make the team, he’s going to be in the rotation. He is better than Holiday already. If we didn’t know he was a rookie, that would be obvious.

    Tokoto never had a chance. My guess is that the cuts are either Ndour or Plumlee and then Randle.

    I’d cut Plumlee and Lou to keep Baker (who I agree should be in the rotation) and Randle (who I think we’re going to need when the inevitable Rose/Jennings injuries strike). Sasha has continued his surprisingly non-terrible play from the end of last season, and Willy, KOQ, and KP’s ability to play the 5 gives us enough big man depth to cover for Noah’s own inevitable injuries.

    That’d put the roster at

    C: Noah, Hernangomez, O’Quinn
    PF: Porzingis, Ndour
    SF: Melo, Thomas, Cheese
    SG: Lee, Holiday, Ron
    PG: Rose, Jennings, Sasha, Randle

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