Knicks Morning News (2016.06.12)

  • [New York Times] In the NBA Finals, the Losses Linger More Than the Wins (Sun, 12 Jun 2016 04:03:34 GMT)

    Often lost in the euphoria of confetti blizzards and champagne showers of an NBA Finals triumph is the crushing despair just down the hall.

  • 48 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.06.12)”

    @2 some interesting guys there, but more for a 2nd guy rather than a main signing. What kind of offer does, say, a Troy Daniels get?

    Troy Daniels would be an excellent addition for the right money. A small sample size indeed and he’s a inch or two shorter than the ideal 2 guard, but if he could sign a Kyle O’Quinn type of deal we could have a steal on our hands. Of course he is an RFA and it would likely take Charlotte to not offer him his QO or a trade for some future 2nds, but he is the type of buy low candidate that could come around and turn into Danny Green. In order to win big in the NBA, you need to have guys who play above their contract value. Daniels is a good bet that, given minutes, he will be worth 3-4 times the value of his contract.

    So odd that Green gets suspended for this and not the OKC incident. It’s almost as if the NBA didn’t want the Warriors to lose that earlier game but would be okay with them losing this game to prolong the Finals.

    he got a flagrant which alone doesn’t merit a suspension but he’s accumalated enough to get one….

    he just went after the nuts one too many times….

    An excellent article about sleepers in free agency:

    http://dailyknicks.com/2016/06/12/knicks-under-the-radar-shooters-to-target-in-free-agency/

    There was a comment by Donnie Walsh (is that our Donnie Walsh?) promoting the idea of signing a few of these guys. Jerryd Bayless, Troy Daniels, Ish Smith to name a few. Daniels, a 24 yr old RFA shot 48.4% from beyond the arc while posting a defensive field goal percentage of 36.2% from the SG position!

    Good read. Considering the info from that article, I wouldn’t be upset at all if the offseason ended up with a Lopez-type signing or trade(not a big splash but very useful), retaining Williams/Thomas/Galloway, and Teletovic and Daniels. As a matter of fact, I wouldn’t mind if Phil bet on Wroten improving under Hornacek and pulled an all role player haul like Dudley/Teletovic/Daniels while retaining Williams/Thomas/Galloway and taking a flier on Lawson. And of course, I wanna see Hernangomez added to the roster. All of that, plus the natural evolution of KP’s game might not be so bad in an EC with a fading Miami (Wade getting old; Bosh’s questionable health), questions in Chicago with Rose’s health & Butler’s status, a 30 year old Lowry in Toronto (will he still be that good going forward after seemingly slowing down a bit in the playoffs), and an underachieving Milwaukee squad. On top of that, we still don’t know if Ty Lue is a real coach yet- I’d say the Knicks have as good a chance as any EC team to improve significantly this coming season. Maybe we should have more faith in Hornacek, Melo, & KP. If KP takes that next step like we all expect him to, he could be really good in year 2. The league has never seen anything like him at that size and skill level. But at the same time, if there’s even a remote chance of KD in blue & orange, Phil should shoot his shot of course.

    RE: The Finals
    I think Cleveland goes home tomorrow even with Draymond suspended. Dubs are just too good and very well coached. Iguodala and Barnes will step up and the Dubs will squeak out the final win of the series. As great as LeBron is, that team just can’t guard GS consistently enough with Love, Kyrie and JR playing heavy minutes. JR has been playing better defense lately, but it’s gonna take him being locked in consistently for Cleveland to take the series. And we all know that ain’t happenin lol. I thought it would be a great series until I saw games 1 & 2. Game 3 was a gimme and I wasn’t surprised by the outcome. That’s kinda been the Warriors MO. Dominate, get bored and lose badly, then keep winning.

    To me a Lopez type of signing for the backcourt points right at Evan Turner. Unheralded, not flashy, smart, makes teammates better.

    Phil Jackson will be ceremoniously booed out of town if he only signs role players. That being said, being able to grab Conley while adding Teletovic (who really should only back up Carmelo Anthony because he’s a terrible power forward) and maybe Daniels that would be a great summer. I’d probably go for Teletovic for 3 years/$30M, Turner for 4 years/$60M, Daniels 2 years/$10M, and then we can retain a couple of our guys.

    Do you like Teletovic better than the younger. cheaper Jon Leuer, who also excelled under Hornacek? Also maybe Bayless is a better bet than Daniels and wouldn’t cost much more.

    You know we’re less than 30 days from becoming a vastly superior team! I’m thrilled with anticipation.

    i feel like turner is going to get a lot less than what ppl think…. the last time he hit the market he was actually just a mediocre 3pt shooter and he’s two years younger than he is now…. and given GS’s success i’m pretty sure a shooting guard who can’t shoot isn’t going to be too popular…

    i wouldn’t exactly be thrilled nabbing turner for 15mm but i think he could be had for less than 10 which makes him attractive….

    I asked this yesterday but will repeat the question with a few additional players added. Who would you sign from this list?

    Conley 26 mil per
    Fournier 20 mil
    Barnes 20 mil
    Whiteside 19 mil
    Crabbe 17 mil
    Clarkson 17 mil
    Bazemore 15 mil
    Turner 13 mil
    Lee 11 mil
    Rondo 10 mil
    Seth Curry 8 mil

    Phil Jackson will be ceremoniously booed out of town if he only signs role players

    Phil isn’t going anywhere he doesn’t want. This is why fans are such morons, in general.

    Look at it from Dolan’s POV (the only POV that counts!) The building is full and he has the 17th payroll @ 74 M when he is used to having the highest and not making the playoffs. He is making money hand over fist and Jackson is methodically building a long term winning team.

    Value asset acquisition and take a few flyers on cheap high risk / reward types. Get enough good players on the roster and a “big fish” will eventually come. And draft wisely 🙂

    There was a comment by Donnie Walsh (is that our Donnie Walsh?)

    It’s an imposter!

    There is only one REAL Donnie Walsh, and it is I.

    @15

    Fournier, Crabbe and Conley rank between 391th and 396th in the league in Drating. Seth Curry 437th. I can’t pay big dollars and get a one way player. I know stats can be deceptive and there is a team aspect to the stats, but I’m skeptical.

    An obvious player we never discuss is Harrison Barnes. He looks like a Phil type player to me. Long… versatile, can switch defensively to a 2, 3 or 4 with no discernible problem. Can shoot the 3 ball well.

    Plus, he has played clutch in the biggest spots. I think he singlehandedly saved GS twice in the OKC series with ice like execution of open 3 balls when they were teetering on the brink. He’s 23, too…

    He just looks like a player that’s intangibles makes him more valuable than the sum of his parts. And if Durant is interested in GS…. he becomes readily available. He can play on my team.

    I agree about barnes but can he fill a backcourt position for us or do we then have to move KP and trade Rolo for a guard?

    I should have added Batum to the list at, say, 21 mil. He’s someone that I’m sure Phil would be interested in.

    Harrison Barnes is a barely average basketball player offensively who defends really well and rebounds about averagely for a 3. That is not a guy I am interested in making a max offer to, and that’s the only way he will be leaving Golden State.

    Harrison Barnes is a barely average basketball player offensively who defends really well and rebounds about averagely for a 3. That is not a guy I am interested in making a max offer to, and that’s the only way he will be leaving Golden State.

    Barnes is 23 and 3.5 years younger and 9,000 minutes less wear and tear than Batum. He’s an improving player that has shown a propensity to be more than up for the big spot.

    GS is looking to have to pay Curry > 30m/year after next season and already have Klay and Draymond locked up thru ’19 and 20 and I’m not sure they want another 20M/yr player with Barnes ability.

    Don’t spend! Don’t spend! Don’t spend!

    I truly hope we don’t overpay for a slightly above average player. We are almost out of “no draft picks and hopelessly over the cap hell” and now is not the time to screw it up.

    Phil Jackson will be ceremoniously booed out of town if he only signs role players. That being said, being able to grab Conley while adding Teletovic (who really should only back up Carmelo Anthony because he’s a terrible power forward) and maybe Daniels that would be a great summer. I’d probably go for Teletovic for 3 years/$30M, Turner for 4 years/$60M, Daniels 2 years/$10M, and then we can retain a couple of our guys.

    Probably so. Well..booed enough to make anyone want to resign, at least lol. But this year, it should be acceptable for Phil to assemble talent on good contracts. Cleveland’s got the EC for at least one more season, and then it’s kinda wide open. Phil probably can’t do what Ainge has done before next offseason, but he can make similar moves with a coach who can actually coach and put a good product on the floor. Kinda like what Doc Rivers did in Orlando. We probably won’t get the haul that they did, but good coaching + improving team with a building block like KP and a developing winning culture + NYC= more talent willing to play for NYK. Or at least it should. So that said, THIS SEASON, Phil doesn’t necessarily have to make a huge splash. Unless Durant wants to play for the Knicks of course. Sure, we’d all like to see rapid improvement, but at least Phil seems to be building with useful parts. I had high hopes for Fish, but he wasn’t quite ready at the time. Now I have high hopes for Hornacek, who at least has proven that he can coach. The only player in free agency this offseason who is actually worth wrecking the cap for, is Durant. Regardless of how bad we need a PG like Conley or a per 36 darling like Whiteside- who is a better player than Lopez but not a better fit (my biggest issue is that he hunts for blocks and rebounds sometimes to the detriment of team defense). Or even a good all around wing like Batum. Stay the course, Phil. Don’t jump unless you have to.

    If Phil can pull off another Tolo type signing while retaining Gallo dwill and Lance and find another dwill type surprise for cheap I would be happy. Keeping the core with zinger and Gallo improving and a better coach and one clear upgrade at one of the guard positions would improve us by ten games or so. I believe a tipping point with a team can happen and we might be close. The team last year was decent despite fisher and an incomplete roster until Melo got hurt. Just need internal improvement and better coaching and any improvements we get from free agency would push us higher.

    Don’t spend! Don’t spend! Don’t spend!

    I truly hope we don’t overpay for a slightly above average player. We are almost out of “no draft picks and hopelessly over the cap hell” and now is not the time to screw it up.

    I agree, but come on, how are they not going to spend?

    @15 If you can get Courtney Lee for only 11m, you do that in a heartbeat! Then, take a flyer on a young 2/3 shooter with upside (Troy Daniels?). You’d probably still have another $10m or so to spend on a quality vet (Lin? Whoever?).

    But, Lee will get a lot more than 11.

    I’d pay Fournier and Crabbe. Barnes was intriguing to me but his all around game is lacking. Why is he not doing more play making like Green, Iggy, or Livingston? There is a part of me though that wants to see him play the 2 guard to see what he would do against smaller players.

    Also, does Houston keep Jones and/or Motiejunas

    I caution anyone who assumes that if we get better, we move up in the standings. Other teams in the 6-10 EC group will get better too.

    Bottom line: there is no deal out there (other than Durant) that turns us into anything but a 7th or 8th seed for a couple of years. So a low-leverage low-cost signing makes sense. We should definitely NOT max out fool’s gold guys like Fournier or Bazemore, or has-beens like Rondo or Howard. Patience is key here.

    Look, Phil has had some hiccups but he’s also made some very strong moves. I feel confident that he’s not gonna F this up. While I’d really like it if he rolled the dice on Felder, it’s all a guessing game that low in a sketchy draft. Little moves for now, one roster spot at a time.

    Sign a max or near max and make the playoffs. Then do the same next year, plus a draft pick, and we’re contenders. Let’s seize the obvious opportunity and stop thinking like losers.

    We should definitely NOT max out fool’s gold guys like Fournier or Bazemore, or has-beens like Rondo or Howard. Patience is key here.

    That’s why I like Solomon Hill

    I’d like Hill as my second acquisition. But I want a bigger and better fish to play in the backcourt too.

    Eric Gordon is a name we should look out for I think. He legit does nothing well besides score (a .565 TS% on a usage around 20%) but he could be useful in the right situation for the right money. I don’t expect him to take anything less than $15 million a year, and for that money I’d at least like to see him average 4A/36, but he’s an unrestricted free agent in his athletic prime who doesn’t foul and has been an above average scorer his whole career. I wouldn’t mind him if the money is right.

    And what’s with Draymond’s fascination with going after other people’s nuts??

    I really wish that we had about 5 second round picks this year. So much talent out there!

    Eric Gordon is a name we should look out for I think. He legit does nothing well besides score (a .565 TS% on a usage around 20%) but he could be useful in the right situation for the right money. I don’t expect him to take anything less than $15 million a year, and for that money I’d at least like to see him average 4A/36, but he’s an unrestricted free agent in his athletic prime who doesn’t foul and has been an above average scorer his whole career. I wouldn’t mind him if the money is righ

    Gordon is the type of player you used to see teams get on the cheap and then settle into a 6th man role. I doubt he gets $15m because of his flaws and injury history.

    Sign a max or near max and make the playoffs. Then do the same next year, plus a draft pick, and we’re contenders. Let’s seize the obvious opportunity and stop thinking like losers.

    OK, so the question then, is which “max” level FA’s moves the needle enough and isn’t a restricted FA? Obviously, if a restricted FA that moves the needle that much and is a max-level guy, he’s gonna have any offer matched. I only see Durant. I like Mike Conley, but he’s 30-ish and coming off of a major injury. And as solid as he is, he doesn’t move the needle that much alone. He had Marc Gasol and Z-Bo- that kinda made things easier. Oh, and he had Tony Allen checkin perimeter players. I’m not suggesting he’s not good, I just don’t think he moves the needle enough to justify taking a huge chunk of the cap.

    Conley moves the needle (will be 29). I think Batum does too. Maybe Fournier if he keeps improving.

    The reason I think Eric Gordon gets at least $15 million is because he just made $15 million this year and chances are it’s going to be tough to have him watch Batum, DeRozan, et al get $20+ million and not give him $15 million. Who knows. He could sign here and find a groove under Hornacek the way pretty much every Hornacek coached guard has and have a .600 TS% season. I think he’s a good buy low candidate in the RoLo mold (except no metric besides PER I’m guessing has ever ranked EG as a good player) and at the very least he would be a better version of Afflalo without the post game hijacking of an offense. I actually really wouldn’t mind pairing Rondo with Eric Gordon. I’d even be happy if we went from Calderon/Afflalo to Rondo/Gordon.

    If a home run would be signing Durant and getting Conley and Batum to split our cap space was two doubles, I’d say Rondo and Gordon on non bloated deals would be two singles. Rondo on $15M AAV, and given Gordon’s injuries let’s say we get away with giving him $12M AAV, we could potentially offer guys like Teletovic, Leuer, Daniels, and Solomon Hill cheap deals to fill out the roster. I think Phil is going to opt to bring back LT and Galloway though. Our roster is pretty much going to be Wroten, Calderon, Grant, Galloway, LT, Melo, Porzingis, Lopez, O’Quinn, Hernangomez, maybe Vujacic, a UDFA, and three free agents. Rondo, Gordon, and Teletovic would be three I wouldn’t mind. My big thing is not offering $20 million AAV just because we have the money. I want us to pursue the big guys, fail, and then settle into the 2nd/3rd tier guys on good deals.

    The only guys worth max money from the Knicks, considering our situation, are Durant and Whiteside. The only other guys worth long term deals in the $15-$20M range are Conley, Batum, and Fournier.

    Do you really think that Rondo gets 15 mil? Hasn’t he been a cancer more than once? Wasn’t Sacramento terrible?

    I could see Whiteside if we get a guard for Lopez. Otherwise he’s not what we need.

    Conley is a winner. He brings good karma which the Zen master will appreciate. Batum is the kind of all around player that Phil likes. Gordon is too risky. How much do you think Fournier is worth? They have 3 SGs and need bigs. Sign and trade for Lopez and then max Whiteside?

    See this…this is where it gets tricky for Phil. Reub’s plan is actually a sound 1, but it could lead to cap disaster if that max player isn’t Durant this year. But, if Conley or Fournier can sustain that play, and improve even more in Fournier’s case, then Phil’s a genius. It’s as big a crapshoot as the draft. On one hand, you want that impact player now, but on the other- you don’t want to put all your eggs in next offseason’s basket considering recent history of the Knicks not getting the marquee name they targeted. Personally, I think its best to spend this year’s money on shooters and defenders and not overspend or give lenghty contracts unless the new additions are young.

    I would max Whiteside even if I didn’t have a sign and trade that netted me Fournier because Hassan Whiteside is excellent. Say what you want about him, but he just gave us a 2,000+ minute sample where he averaged 14 points on a .629 TS%, 11.8 rebounds and 3.7 blocks for a 48 win Heat team that would have made the EC Finals had he not been injured. He also had the best DRtg in the league at 95. Play him 2,000 minutes and he will add a minimum of 10 wins to your team. He’s amazing and worth a max contract. When we played the Heat, I watched Hassan Whiteside single-handedly wreck our game plan. He completely shut down the paint because you knew he would either block the shot or alter it into a miss. I’d give Whiteside a max contract and trade Lopez without thinking. He spent two years in South Beach without getting caught up in the paparazzi or the Miami night life, and that’s quite honestly enough for me to trust him for the next four years.

    Re: Rondo, I can only recall his being a cancer in Dallas with Carlisle. For all intents and purposes, they loved him in Boston and I heard nothing about him in Sacramento. Maybe towards the end he got cranky but that may or may not have had something to do with the Celtics’ openly wanting to trade him for a rebuild. Not just that, but Melo has been endorsing Rondo for years now. Agreed that EG is a risk, though. Same with Rondo, but at least Rondo will play all the games and lead the league in assists.

    I say no to Gordon, he’s just too one-dimensional and injury-prone to use up cap space on.

    I’m not a Rondo fan per se, but that’s a move where I’d have to trust Phil’s judgment. Rondo at less than $10 million is probable good value. Anything higher than that would be very iffy. Anyway, the guy won 11 championships with PGs like BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Derek Fisher and Jordan Farmar. Not sure why so many people think he only wants tall guys at that position.

    Conley is intriguing. If healthy, he’s a top-10 PG and certainly worth $15-20 million but probably never a max. The health concerns are very real, though, and saying he makes us a playoff team is very contingent on that. I’d pass but it’s an understandable move.

    I have watched Fournier torch us, so I may be biased, but he’s a player I like very much. Again, not a max player though.

    Jeremy Lin at $6-10 mill is a guy I’d like to see us take a good run at. Just don’t know if Dolan would allow it.

    Batum is the only guy on the potential max list I would overpay for, but he’s almost certainly staying put in Charlotte. Bazemore is interesting, but not anywhere near a max player at this stage, you’d be banking on improvement which is always iffy.

    Forget about Whiteside, he’s staying in Miami. If Riley lets him go, buyer beware, something is wrong with him.

    conley is definitely someone who would move the needle… even including the 2017 pg list he stacks up favorably… he’s a year younger than lowry, two years younger than cp3…. he’s a year older than teague but he’s also clearly better than him… he’s also head and shoulders better than holiday and hill….

    the only question is health and missing a lot of games at this age is a red flag…. he didn’t have surgery or anything so i think he’s relatively safe… signing him would be the best outcome this summer…. short of nabbing whiteside somehow….

    fournier i think is a trap…. his improvements this year have basically all come from the shooting side of things so it’s more than likely that he just had a good shooting year than any sort of actual improvement… he’s probably somewhere in between the last couple of years and that’s no different than a healthier eric gordon…

    bazemore is also going to be a trap…. he’s just a lot better within the hawks system… and d carroll wasn’t exactly great when he left the hawks… bazemore’s going to be similar…

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