Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, October 15, 2019

SNY.com: 5 things that need to happen for Knicks season to be considered a success

This Rafael Canton piece isn’t exactly reinventing the wheel, but hey, he’s talking about the Knicks, and that’s what we’re all sort of desperate for, right?

I figure that I’ll just post his five things and you can read the above piece to see his explanations and I guess everyone here can share the five things that YOU think that needs to happen for this season to be considered a success (I think Canton nails most of these, so I doubt many of us would quibble too much with these five. I personally think #4 isn’t that big of a deal, as I don’t think any of the 1s on the current roster will become the longterm Knick point guard).

1. Second Year Players Kevin Knox And Mitchell Robinson Taking The Next Leap

2. Will R.J. Barrett Shine?

3. Julius Randle Embraces The Number One Option

4. Finding A Long-Term Option At Point Guard

5. Gaining Assets For Veterans At Trade Deadline

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255 comments on “SNY.com: 5 things that need to happen for Knicks season to be considered a success

  1. Brian Cronin Post author

    I guess I’d move #5 to #4 and then make the new #5 be something Fizdale related, like “Fizdale showing he’s good at more than talking about how good he is.”

  2. bidiong

    I’d like to think we might be players at the deadline, but I know better. We aren’t the best asset hunters.

  3. Name is Bron - James Bron

    The summer/fall ritual of fans think middling vets are gonna fetch us anything of value is going in earnest. The notion of D’Antoni and Morey in a conference room saying to one another Ellington is the missing the piece is beyond ludicrous. The most we’d get is a late 2nd round pick. Let it go. It’s a non-starter.

    I don’t know that RJ needs to “shine”. He’s young, most guys struggle in their 1st year. He needs to not be Knox, that’s for sure. And sure it’s important that Mitch improve but heck he was so damn productive last year I just hope he doesn’t regress. He needs to be our defensive captain which means he needs to talk more and improve his positioning. Fortunately we have Joakim Noah and Tyson Chandler here to help him…oh wait, never mind.

    If Randle breaks out to be all-star caliber I think you’d have to consider the season a success if nothing else positive happens and Mitch doesn’t regress. But let’s settle for Randle is not Amare on defense and progresses to be an above average player versus just net average. We need more then. The next most positive thing would be EITHER Payton continues his above average performance of 2nd half of last season OR DSJ shows significant progress. A headless offense just won’t work. Randle above average and Payton or DSJ playing well would make the season a success.

    Let’s say Randle is above average but Payton and DSJ don’t pan out. Then we need other positives:
    – Kevin Knox has to show significant improvement; if not, he will be neither tradable nor playable but Fiz will continue to play him and he’ll decimate chances to improve team defense.
    – One of Dotson OR Trier emerges as average+ player who we are able to re-sign to a reasonable contract.
    – Frank posts 500+TS. Best lineup in 93min against other starters (Frank/THJ/Dot/Vonleh/Mitch). Frank/Beal/Randle/Mitch/35m wing could be our future.

  4. Brian Cronin Post author

    The summer/fall ritual is going in earnest where fans think middling vets are gonna fetch us anything of value. The notion of D’Antoni and Morey in a conference room saying to one another Ellington is the missing the piece is beyond ludicrous. The most we’d get is a late 2nd round pick. Let it go. It’s a non-starter.

    Normally, I’d be right there with you, but I think there will be an actual market for Morris this season. The issue, though, is that we’ve yet to see this team actually trade a veteran player outside of dumps, so I fear that if Morris plays well, they will think it is better to re-sign him than trade him.

  5. alsep73

    I think finding a real point guard should be high on the list. Whether it’s DSJ improving, Payton staying healthy and continuing to play like he did in his better moments in NOLA, or, improbably, FIBA bronze medalist Frank getting a long and productive stint at the point of attack, we need someone who can run an actual offense, instead of the shapeless iso-nonsense we’ve basically run every year of this century except for the Kidd/Felton/Pablo season.

  6. Z-man

    Coming into the 2018-19 season, no one could’ve predicted that second round pick Mitchell Robinson would outshine lottery pick Kevin Knox.

    Really? Half the posters here thought so. The writer lost me there, any of us could have done better than this.

    Agree with alsep73 on the PG front. DSjr worked on fixing his broken shot this offseason, but I think Payton is really the guy to watch. I don’t think you can post 5 consecutive triple-doubles in the NBA without being good.

    Knox getting better is pretty key. He showed stuff in brief flashes but you wonder if his b-ball IQ is just too low to overcome via hard work, which I assume he is putting in. I’m not worried at all about Mitch other than injury. RJ will likely stink as most young rookies do, the hope is that he sucks less as the season goes on and shows some hope of becoming a productive starter next year.

    Trading any signed vets for assets is pretty irrelevant to me. They’re all on short term/team option deals so the work there was already done. Anything beyond that is gravy.

    I think Trier’s development is a huge part of whether this season will be successful. I’m expecting a major step forward from him and he’s probably the most talented scorer on the team.

  7. Brian Cronin Post author

    I think finding a real point guard should be high on the list. Whether it’s DSJ improving, Payton staying healthy and continuing to play like he did in his better moments in NOLA, or, improbably, FIBA bronze medalist Frank getting a long and productive stint at the point of attack, we need someone who can run an actual offense, instead of the shapeless iso-nonsense we’ve basically run every year of this century except for the Kidd/Felton/Pablo season.

    Finding a real point guard is a high priority, I just don’t see how it could happen with this season. The options just aren’t really there. Payton’s best qualification is that he isn’t Smith. Smith’s best qualification is that he isn’t Ntilikina. Ntilikina’s best qualification is that he played a good quarter against Team NBA in the World Cup.

  8. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Have we all read about Mitchell Robinson’s pit breeding business? I’m sure this story will end well.

    Why can’t we have nice things?

  9. Bruno Almeida

    @9

    It’s on reddit today, but the link to the Instagram account on the post no longer works, so it might have been taken down already. It seems legit.

  10. Name is Bron - James Bron

    One bite to one of his slender ankles and he’d be Enes on defense. Remember when Mills and Perry made a big deal about how they’re developing players on and off the court? Well Mitch needs a life coach. There’s been other stuff that have me worried. Mitch has a history of making poor impulsive decisions.

    Somewhat related, on the Nate Duncan pod, their FIBA guy said Frank has potential but the rumors are that he’s a “head case”. He didn’t elaborate. Did he misuse the term and mean that he’s too timid (deer-in-the-headlights) or is there something else there? Maybe the FO is putting stuff out for when they trade him?

    Just listened to earlier pod where Duncan gave Knicks F+ grade and LeRoux gave them an F for the off-season. Oof. Way too harsh. I gave them a “C”. They included the draft as well as summer signings. Neither of them liked RJ pick but still. The draft’s a crap shoot and they shouldn’t have dinged them for that. I favored swapping #3 for 8 and 10 picks, but would I have done that in reality? If RJ ends up a star, I’d be forever known as the guy that didn’t pick RJ unless one of those 8 and 10 picks were also a star.

  11. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    The concern about hin being a bully breeder in the Deep South is not accidental bites.

    Re: the offseason, it would have been given an F by pundits if they had signed a bunch of young guys to value deals, too. They would only validate big splash signings.

    Kyrie is a malcontented moron. Durant is injured, aging and needs a therapist. Kawhi was never coming here. Kemba and Horford do not align with our win curve. Anthony Davis wanted to Carmelo his new team to get there a year early, and the Knicks would have been far worse for him than just staying put and playing next to Barkley 2.0. for a year. Davis wanted to play next to LeBron, period.

    There was no way to win this offseason except to steal value players from the scrap heap and trade the 3 for a bunch of picks. No long term debt was taken on for players like Noah or Hardaway. It’s not close to an F, even if it wasn’t good.

  12. Brian Cronin Post author

    It’s ridiculous to call this an F offseason. It’s just moronic. I don’t even like what they did this offseason, but I sure as fuck wouldn’t give it an F.

  13. Z-man

    Honestly, I think this is a case where it is impossible to grade the offseason until we’re well into the regular season. Right now, it’s about how much the moves align with one’s personal preferences. The only thing you can say for sure is that they should have saved some cap space for a rainy day.

    It’s one of the things that makes this upcoming season so interesting. While some might disagree, there’s no one on this team that I personally can’t wait to get rid of. Last year, there was Kanter, Hardaway Jr., and Lance. Mudiay and Hezonja too, but less so because there was a least a glimmer of hope that they would turn it around. There was also the KP chronicles last year, and although it’s too early to judge whether the trade was a win or a loss, at least the drama is gone.

    It’s a bit weird in that we’re neither a tanking nor a win-now team going into the season. That may change as things unfold, but there’s just so many unanswered questions.

  14. Bruno Almeida

    Yeah, its 100% not a F. I could see an argument for something like a D- if none of the veterans are good or provided anything, but even then the cap flexibility is still there and we still have all the picks. It would be a F if we have signed Portis, Gibson, etc to 4 year contracts or some craziness like that.

  15. TheClashFan

    C-. Nothing terrible done, but should’ve facilitated a trade somewhere to get another 1st round pick. One of the vet contracts was really silly; we all know which one.

    It would be nice if Morris were traded for something of value later on, but I’m not counting on that. These guys aren’t really much interested in future assets.

  16. Z-man

    At least they actually have future assets for a change. They have 2 surplus #1’s and 2 top-notch #2’s in the next 3 years.

    Serious question: Who’s better value at their current salary, Bobby Portis or Kristaps Porzingis?

  17. BigBlueAL

    No mention of Frank’s stellar game today which left him finishing his amazing FIBA WC run scoring 8 pg on 43% shooting and 33% from 3pt??

  18. DRed

    Just listened to earlier pod where Duncan gave Knicks F+ grade and LeRoux gave them an F for the off-season. Oof. Way too harsh. I gave them a “C”. They included the draft as well as summer signings. Neither of them liked RJ pick but still. The draft’s a crap shoot and they shouldn’t have dinged them for that. I favored swapping #3 for 8 and 10 picks, but would I have done that in reality? If RJ ends up a star, I’d be forever known as the guy that didn’t pick RJ unless one of those 8 and 10 picks were also a star.

    Yeah, that was idiotic. They were like they blew the RJ pick taking him 3rd, I had him like 6th or 7th on my board. I don’t think RJ is a particularly great talent, but there’s not enough difference in those valuations for it to be a terrible decision. Trading for Derrick Rose and signing Jo Noah to a big long term deal-that’s an F- offseason. Not optimizing your cap space in the short term and drafting a guy a few spots too high is, I dunno, a C-. Those guys also thought DSJ was the best young prospect on the Knicks last season because (essentially) all Mitch can do is dunk and block shots.

  19. Bruno Almeida

    @20

    That’s specially funny considering all DSJ can do well at this point is dunking without the blocks, but he’s 6’3″ and supposed to be a Point Guard.

  20. DRed

    The idea that a good PG is more valuable than a good big man is defensible, but it’s so much more likely that Mitch will be a good bigman than DSJ will be a good PG.

  21. thenoblefacehumper

    There’s been a weirdly hyperbolic reaction to our offseason. I think even in the GM survey a plurality said we had the worst offseason in the league, which is insane considering the single Terry Rozier contract is worse than everything we did. I guess it’s the letdown factor, because objectively our offseason was pretty mundane.

    I think a C or C- is about right–we didn’t hurt ourselves much, but we also came away with embarrassingly little in the way of assets gained from spending $70M AAV. Yes, I know that can change via trades, development of Payton/Portis, etc. No, I ain’t holding my breath.

  22. Early Bird

    What does RJ shining look like? It’s unlikely he’ll score efficiently even if he turns into an efficient scorer later.

    I suppose you look for the assists and rebounds?? Avoiding terrible defense? I’m not sure but if we could, collectively, come up with some baseline numbers ahead of time it would be helpful.

    I’d be ecstatic to see RJ with 13pts/8reb/3ast per 36 with a .500 TS%. It’s what T-Mac put up in his rookie year.

    However, I expect him to have a TS% closer to .480. With more pts, and fewer blks/stls than T-Mac.

    Any other thoughts?

  23. JK47

    RJ’s strengths and weaknesses seem pretty obvious, and the things he needs to improve seem obvious as well. He’ll need to get the FT% higher, he’ll need to improve his outside shot, he’ll need to show something on the defensive end. He’s already good at getting to the line, rebounding, and playmaking.

    I’d also like to see him refine his game around the basket, work in more Euro step finesse type moves. Right now he moves in a straight line and is not real crafty around the hoop. That does seem to be something he can develop.

  24. geo

    interesting couple of games coming up for the g-men…at least interesting in terms of results…

    gotta figure 0 – 4 means the beginning of the daniel jones era…

  25. geo

    finally got to watch the FRANK versus argentina game…realized as soon as frank subbed out, i didn’t really care…

    I’m interested to see mitch, rj, randle, and payton play…got my fingers crossed hard that DSJ and trier both “breakout” a bit…

    frank, knox, iggy, and mostly everyone else…we’ll see…who knows – maybe bobby portis shocks us all…

  26. geo

    sometimes I wonder if you have more fire and passion in your left pinkie than I have in my entire body…

    who in the world has the energy to be angry on a sunday :)

  27. JK47

    I’m kind of more bemused than angry.

    The Raiders weird ass defense with no star players on it just held the Chiefs scoreless for a quarter and had three TFLs. It’s… well, it’s weird.

  28. geo

    i’ve always preferred to think of myself as just having more of a sardonic outlook on life as opposed to just being sarcastic at times…it makes me feel like less of a dick…

  29. Z-man

    I drove back and forth to the North Country of NY for a college thing. On the way, I listened to most of Lou Reed’s Rock and Roll Animal album. It’s crazy how far removed this concert version of the Velvet Underground tracks are from the studio versions, not sure if I know of any artist who covered his own songs in this way. Steve Hunter’s guitar work was about as good as it gets for me. JK, a bit before your time but were you ever into his stuff?

  30. JK47

    Lou Reed is one of my heroes.

    If I could transport myself to any moment in rock history, I’d probably want to transport myself to the Velvet Underground playing at the Exploding Plastic Inevitable in like 1966.

  31. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    I’d give them a D- for this off season. The only way it could be worse is if they gave out long term contracts to these guys.

    I’m not a huge fan of any of the players they picked up. I’m OK with Payton, Portis and Randle because they are young and improving, but we sharply overpaid for Portis, imo Randle may not be an ideal fit and we overrpaid him, and none of them can defend.

    The only move I like is taking RJ Barrett, but every team in the league would have taken Barrett 3rd. So it’s not like they actually deserve credit for that unless you consider it an improvement over last year when the reached for Knox against consensus and came up with one of the worst 2-way players in the NBA that got significant minutes. Maybe Iggy will turn out to a good value.

    These guys are absolutely horrible.

    They aren’t making catastrophic GM level mistakes, but they are clueless about basketball.

  32. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    It’s the reverse situation.

    Phil, Gaines, and his guys were generally looking for young two way team oriented players for the long term. Those are the types of players I like. But they lacked draft picks and made some dreadful GM level decisions with salaries for older free agents.

    Maybe some day we’ll finally get some “plus” management.

    I just want to throw one other thing out there. Dotson has totally fallen through the cracks. Not that he’s ever going to be a star, but imo, he’s not that far away from being a solid two way rotation player. He has some things to work on to become a more complete efficient offensive player, but it’s not impossible. The problem is that this was a lost summer for him. I’d be surprised if he even comes back where he left off. It’s going to take time for him to recover from his surgery and get his form back after not playing at all when ideally he’d be improving.

  33. JK47

    Phil, Gaines, and his guys were generally looking for young two way team oriented players for the long term.

    Like Carmelo Anthony? Boy, nothing says “we’re looking for young, two way team oriented players for the long term” like giving a megamax contract to a 31 year old Carmelo Anthony.

  34. vincoug

    Phil, Gaines, and his guys were generally looking for young two way team oriented players for the long term. Those are the types of players I like. But they lacked draft picks and made some dreadful GM level decisions with salaries for older free agents.

    This is a joke right? Phil Jackson had nothing to do with free agents that were signed here? That would be hilariously dumb if it weren’t so obviously racist.

  35. JK47

    I’m a huge fan of John Cale’s solo work as well, specifically the amazing albums “Paris 1919,” “Vintage Violence” and “Slow Dazzle”

  36. Bruno Almeida

    Phil Jackson was hired in march of 2014. He added the following list of players to the Knicks: Quincy Acy, Jose Calderon, Lou Amundson, Samuel Dalembert, Cleanthony Early, Langston Galloway, Shane Larkin, Alexey Shved, Lance Thomas, Travis Wear, Arron Afflalo, Thanasis Antetokounmpo, Jerian Grant, Kyle O’Quinn, Robin Lopez, Kristaps Porzingis, Kevin Seraphin, Derrick Williams, Sasha Vujacic, Ron Baker, Willy Hernangomez, Derrick Rose, Joakim Noah, Brandon Jennings, Justin Holiday, Courtney Lee, Mindaugas Kuzminskas, Maurice Ndour, Marshall Plumlee and Chasson Randle, Frank Ntilkina, Damyean Dotson and Luke Kornet.

    That’s about 33 players signed. Outside of Courtney Lee, Kyle O’Quinn, maaaaaybe Arron Afflalo, Justin Holiday, Dotson and Porzingis, literally nobody else was a two way player, and Porzingis, Dotson and O’Quinn were the only young ones . Also, none of those guys were “long term oriented” aside from Porzingis, Ntilikina and maybe you could add Hernangomez and Dotson to the list if you’re feeling very kind.

    Stop inventing literal bullshit for the sake of your crazy obsession with Phil Jackson.

  37. thenoblefacehumper

    Phil, Gaines, and his guys were generally looking for young two way team oriented players for the long term. Those are the types of players I like. But they lacked draft picks and made some dreadful GM level decisions with salaries for older free agents.

    Lmao I mean at a certain point you kind of have to admire the dedication to the bit.

    Carmelo Anthony is the NBA-watching community’s go-to fucking example of a one-way chucker and Phil Jackson made him the highest paid player in the NBA.

  38. vincoug

    Carmelo Anthony is the NBA-watching community’s go-to fucking example of a one-way chucker and Phil Jackson made him the highest paid player in the NBA.

    Not just the highest paid player in the NBA but also gave him a no-trade clause!

  39. Early Bird

    Randle was probably the best signing we could have made, unless Kawhi came here. Even if Randle regresses a bit, he’s still the best signing we could have made.

    I have no real faith in Dotson putting it all together. I’d be pleasantly surprised, but he’s shown why he was a second rounder.

  40. Bruno Almeida

    The problem about Dotson is that there’s nothing to like about his profile other than the 36% from 3 in 5 attempts or so. Even with that decent number his ts% is below average and I don’t see much defensive upside. If the only thing you can do is shoot 3s at about the league average, it’s hard to be a very valuable player, you’re just the next version of Wayne Ellington.

  41. Hubert

    If I could transport myself to any moment in rock history, I’d probably want to transport myself to the Velvet Underground playing at the Exploding Plastic Inevitable in like 1966.

    When I used to run the intern program for my company, I would always ask this question on interviews. There was no right answer I just liked seeing how well-prepared kids reacted to something they weren’t expecting.

    My picks tended to be someone who was playing CBGB circa 1977…. patti Smith, the heartbreakers, talking heads, etc. Seems like a decent time and place to be transported to.

  42. Hubert

    Phil, Gaines, and his guys were generally looking for young two way team oriented players for the long term. Those are the types of players I like. But they lacked draft picks and made some dreadful GM level decisions with salaries for older free agents

    It seems like he’s saying they looked for two way players with their picks and fucked up with their free agents.

    I also liked the Clarence Gaines draft profile more than the Mills/Perry profile. I’m confident he wouldn’t have considered Knox at 9. Of course, he did take frank at 8, so…

  43. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    Lou Reed is one of my heroes.

    Be glad you didn’t meet him. Which goes for most heroes, probably.

    share the five things that YOU think that needs to happen for this season to be considered a success

    There are really only two:

    1) Mitch continues to grow, limiting his fouling while retaining his impact both on O and D, and

    2) Payton turns the corner (literally and figuratively) and becomes consistent enough to consider the PG going forward. If DSjr broke out, great, but I don’t expect it and won’t be looking for it. Payton, though, has a chance. Right age, has shown flashes, will have big men to pass to after he penetrates.

    No one is trading us picks for players except (as Brian points out) for Morris. And we still won’t get much, as he’s only signed this season. And I couldn’t care less about Knox; while I wouldn’t write him off completely, I am not optimistic he’ll be more than an overrated chucker. As for Randle, I don’t believe he’ll be anything other than what he is: a good volume scorer and indifferent defender. Not a bad signing, but unlikely to surprise, either.

    Oh, and RJ? He’s a rookie, and not a particularly promising one. If he recognizes his limitations and focuses on rebounding and passing, I’ll be pleasantly surprised.

    Really, it just comes down to Mitch and Payton for me. I just don’t expect pleasant surprises from anywhere else….including Fizdale.

  44. Early Bird

    Randle and Mitch playing well together is probably the second most important thing that could happen for the Knicks.

    RJ playing well is number 1.

  45. JK47

    Be glad you didn’t meet him. Which goes for most heroes, probably.

    I was chatting about him with a friend of mine, and my friend said “Lou is such a miserable asshole, I can’t believe anybody respects him.” To which I replied that Lou being a miserable asshole was the whole point. Nice Guy Lou Reed would not have been even a little bit interesting.

    There’s a lot of humanity and empathy in his music despite his ridiculous misanthropic persona.

  46. KnickfaninNJ

    No mention of Frank’s stellar game today which left him finishing his amazing FIBA WC run scoring 8 pg on 43% shooting and 33% from 3pt??

    Since I recall a lot of shots were three pointers and he did get some free throws, that probably puts his TS close to 0.500. That’s not great, but it is a significant improvement if it holds up.

  47. Z-man

    Does that mean that you think of the Rock and Roll Animal album as kind of a commercialized sell-out? The guitar work kind of overwhelms the “underground” aspect of the music, but it is brilliantly executed. The live version of Heroin is filthy good. It just seemed like a performance that no one would have expected sound-wise. Maybe 2nd on my list of concerts to be transported back to, Allman Brothers Live at the Fillmore East is probably first.

    From Wikipedia:

    “As it happens, I had seen Reed and a mediocre pickup band at Lincoln Center some months earlier in his first New York non-Velvets appearance and he was tragic in every sense of the word. So, at the Academy, I didn’t expect much and when his new band came out and began to play spectacular, even majestic, rock & roll, management’s strategy for the evening became clear: Elevate the erratic and unstable punkiness of the centerpiece into punchy, swaggering grandeur by using the best arrangements, sound and musicians that money could buy; the trimmings, particularly guitarists Dick Wagner and Steve Hunter, were awesome enough so that if Reed were merely competent, the concert would be a success. And it was, as one can judge from the resultant albums. The band does not emulate the violent, hypnotic, dope-trance staccato power and subway lyricism of the Velvet Underground, but rather opts for a hard, clean, clear, near-royal Mott the Hoople/Eric Clapton (Layla) opulence and Reed sings out most of the songs in his effective street-talk style. “

  48. Oaktrees

    RnR animal is weird one, took more than a few listens for me to appreciate it. I’m pretty firmly in the 1969 camp (man that version of Ocean) or even Take No Prisoners (that version of Leave Me Alone).

    Coney Island Baby might be my fav solo Lou record.

    But for a time machine, gimmie an pre Touch of Grey, 80s Dead show at MSG, specifically 3.9.1981

  49. Frank

    I’d prob give them a C- for the offseason.

    I like the Randle signing.

    I think one of Ellington or Taj would’ve been sufficient for the “vet who can show kids how to play” role.

    Portis seems completely superfluous unless Taj isn’t expected to play at all. I honestly would rather have kept Kornet.

    I think the problem is that all the signings are justifiable when looking them one at a time, but at the end of the day, the most likely thing that happens is our young players don’t get enough time on the court and the old vets a) win a few games that we probably will regret come lottery time; b) get cranky when they realize they’re on a bad team sitting on the bench come March; c) don’t get traded for meaningful assets.

    meanwhile they should already be making calls on Marcus Morris. I assume some part of the informal deal is that they would not trade him to a bad team (who prob wouldn’t want him anyway). I would love to trade him to OKC, who I assume may be on the playoff bubble.

  50. Hubert

    Re: offseason grades, I’m willing to give them a pass on not renting the cap space for assets because I doubt they could have pulled off trades with GS and Brooklyn. But they should have kept some space to facilitate three way deals during the season. There aren’t as many teams to choose from at that point. The decision to value Gibson, Portis, and Ellington over that flexibility reveals a flawed process.

    So I agree with the people handing out C’s. I’d have given them a B if they picked up some vets who can fill that leadership void while maintaining flexibility for in season trades.

  51. alsep73

    Good Begley piece where he asks several anonymous NBA coaches, past and present, about the challenges Fizdale will face coaching this particular roster of green prospects and short-term vets. The money quote:

    “It’s safe to say that it’s going to be tough to keep everyone in that locker room happy,” the coach said.

  52. Fetch

    @51
    Hubert, Walter Lure from the Heartbreakers and his band play every year at the Johnny Thunders birthday bash at the Bowery Electric a block away from CBGBs. A bunch of old timers from from back in the day show up and it’s always a good time. He’s been playing the LAMF album with an all-star band every year too at the same bar. A lot of gray hair, torn jeans, and black leather jackets. Takes you right back

  53. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I’m not into the woo woo, talismanic-fetish aspects of it, but Patti Smith’s book about her relationship with Robert Mapplethorpe was worth the time and effort. Just Kids, I think it won the National Book Award or something. Pretty incredible story of making it as an artist in the grime of 70s NYC.

  54. Donnie Walsh

    If Iverson was still in the league Phil prolly would have signed that dude too

    I’m not one to defend Phil Jackson, but in this case Phil didn’t target Carmelo Anthony. Anthony was already here, he was already the face of the franchise, and 90% of the Knick fans in the world, I imagine, wanted him back (just not the “faux-fans” that post here).

    The upsetting thing is that Phil was brought in, presumably, with full autonomy from Dolan and could have decided to move on from Anthony, which he should have done, especially after not being able to talk him into a more team-friendly deal. The mega max with no-trade clause was a franchise-killing move, and it didn’t really matter what he did from then on, it was never going to go well. (https://knickerblogger.net/woj-carmelo-to-sign-5-year-deal-with-new-york/).

    But he didn’t go out of his way to sign Anthony. (He was too lazy to go anywhere at all, in fact, except to one dinner where he tried to talk Carmelo down, Carmelo said no, and so he signed the check.)

  55. Fetch

    @65
    Yeah. The cool thing about Just Kids is you don’t even need to know who Patti Smith or Robert Mapplethorp are to enjoy it. Just a cool New York story

  56. Donnie Walsh

    When I used to run the intern program for my company, I would always ask this question on interviews [where would you transport yourself?]. There was no right answer I just liked seeing how well-prepared kids reacted to something they weren’t expecting.

    My picks tended to be someone who was playing CBGB circa 1977…. patti Smith, the heartbreakers, talking heads, etc. Seems like a decent time and place to be transported to.

    For me, it would be December 22nd, 1808: the night Beethoven premiered his Symphony #5 and his Symphony #6, as well as his 4th piano concerto, which he played as the soloist for. It was a Springsteenesque 4+ hours, and was the last time he’d be able to appear as a soloist due to his declining hearing. (And the best part is, the concert was panned by critics! The BeethovenBlogger.org community was like “the music is fine, but it’s too cold in the theatre to make it worth the price”, and “why max Beethoven when you can have two-way composers like Hummel, Goethe, and Joe Hadyn instead?!”)

    And then, from there, I’d take the rock n roll time machine to SF for thanksgiving, 1976, and attend the Last Waltz. (And then maybe hang out a few months and catch the 1977 Little Feat shows that became Waiting For Columbus, before returning home to the painfully shitty music of 2019).

  57. swiftandabundant

    Though call but Manchester in the late early 80s when the New Wave scene was getting off the ground (Joy Division, Happy Mondays, New Order) would have been a lot of fun.

    Or late 70s NYC…you got disco, punk and up in The Bronx hip hop all going at the same time.

  58. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I would not give that book to any young arty person who fetishizes living in NYC. Might give them hope that they’ll rub elbows with this generation’s Warhol (Banksy?) at Chelsea dive bars (do those exist anymore?) before heading back to a cheap artist’s loft in Brooklyn. Oh yeah, and then you fall ass-backwards into becoming an acclaimed voice of one of the most influential cultural movements of the century.

  59. swiftandabundant

    Revisiting Phil coming here and resigning Melo.

    Do you think looking back that maybe Woodson got a raw deal?

    He took over from Dantoni when the team was in a downward spiral. The team then finished that season on a tear and got into the playoffs. He then coached the single most successful Knicks season in the last 18 years and even got us a playoff victory. His last season the team missed the playoffs by ONE game despite Chandler breaking his leg and missing several months, having Bargs traded onto the team replacing Novak, who at least did one thing VERY well. Plus JR was off his rocker that year. And when Phil came in, Woodson even incorporated some of the Triangle into their offense and the team ended that season going 18-6 or something like that, missing the playoffs by one game.

    I’m not saying he was great. JKidd was a big reason why they were so good that year. But Woodson also did a pretty good job in Atlanta building up a young team to a decent playoff team. And since he left the Knicks he hasn’t gotten a head coaching job. But like, he’s better than a lot of coaches out there when you look at his record.

  60. JK47

    Does that mean that you think of the Rock and Roll Animal album as kind of a commercialized sell-out? The guitar work kind of overwhelms the “underground” aspect of the music, but it is brilliantly executed.

    I’m sure people thought of it that way at the time, but for me that album makes sense in Lou’s discography because it comes after Berlin, which featured big Bob Ezrin production and highly accomplished players like Jack Bruce, Aynsley Dunbar and Steve Hunter himself. Rock And Roll Animal is a classic live album, no question.

    Lou Reed was, at the time, sort of one degree of separation removed from Kiss, believe it or not. There’s the Bob Ezrin connection, and the guitarist who played all the beautiful lead stuff on Coney Island Baby was Bob Kulick, who played as a session guy on a bunch of Kiss records. Bob Kulick almost got the Kiss gig instead of Ace Frehley, and his brother Bruce Kulick joined Kiss in the 80’s.

    I quite like the run of Lou Reed records from the late 70’s/early 80’s: Street Hassle, The Bells, The Blue Mask.

  61. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    I agree with the 5 objectives. Of the 5, having a PG emerge would be the #1 goal. My hope is that either Dennis Smith or Elfrid Payton emerge as the PG of the future. Both are young and have talent. If either played decent defense it would be a slam dunk. I am skeptical that either will emerge.

    After reviewing his FIBA experience and stats I’m very disappointed in Ntilikina. Some folks, straw-graspers, think that they saw improvement. I saw much of the same. He wasn’t efficient. His handle is still lacking. He does not have a consistent jump shot. The numbers back it up. Those 8pt, 43.6 FG% and 33.3 3pt% are pedestrian and he had a horrible 8th game. His line: 16:11 mp, 2 pts, 14.3 FG% (1-7) %, 20% 2pt% (1-5), 0% 3pt% (0-2), 4 rb, 2 ast, 1 to.

    BTW, looks like a 2nd accuser came out to claim Antonio Brown sexual misconduct. Is Tom Brady the first QB to throw TD passes to both a murderer AND a rapist?

  62. Owen

    My music taste is all aughts. Saw Arcade Fire with Bowie. That was probably my favorite show.

    Will check out Just Kids. That sounds awesome.

    I am going to enjoy the anticipation of Elfrid’s first triple double as a Knick and then I am going to fake disappointment when he turns out to be exactly what we thought he was.

    Mitch is breeding fighting dogs? For money?

    And yes, this year is really going to be ridiculous unless we have a bunch of injuries.

  63. Brian Cronin Post author

    Do you think looking back that maybe Woodson got a raw deal?

    I don’t think Woody would have been willing to change his coaching style to fit Phil while on a lame duck contract. Firing him was probably the fairest thing Phil could have done for him.

    But yeah, by just being mediocre, Woodson was better than most Knick coaches of recent vintage.

  64. Hubert

    I’m not into the woo woo, talismanic-fetish aspects of it, but Patti Smith’s book about her relationship with Robert Mapplethorpe was worth the time and effort. Just Kids, I think it won the National Book Award or something. Pretty incredible story of making it as an artist in the grime of 70s NYC.

    I second this. It was particularly enlightening for someone with only a cursory knowledge of Mapplethorpe (like me). I had the good fortune of reading the book at the same time a comprehensive exhibit of his work was up at the Getty museum in LA for me to visit.

  65. Hubert

    Do you think looking back that maybe Woodson got a raw deal?

    No.

    If anyone got a raw deal from that time, it was Mike D’Antoni.

  66. Hubert

    “It’s safe to say that it’s going to be tough to keep everyone in that locker room happy,” the coach said.

    I would like to think that when we overpaid these guys, it included the expectation that they might have to accept being a little less happy with their playing time. I’m not handing Bobby Portis $15mm (when he arguably might have struggled to find half that) without telling him “but all this extra money is buying your compliance down the line. You get that, right?”

  67. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    If anyone got a raw deal from that time, it was Mike D’Antoni.

    D’Antoni was/is fatally flawed because he has little defensive acumen but his offensive philosophy has transformed the league.

  68. Hubert

    Hubert, Walter Lure from the Heartbreakers and his band play every year at the Johnny Thunders birthday bash at the Bowery Electric a block away from CBGBs. A bunch of old timers from from back in the day show up and it’s always a good time. He’s been playing the LAMF album with an all-star band every year too at the same bar. A lot of gray hair, torn jeans, and black leather jackets. Takes you right back

    Thanks for the tip, Fetch. I’m old enough to have been to CBGB but only way past its prime (late 90’s, early 2000s).

  69. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    There’s the Bob Ezrin connection

    Man, totally forgot that he was potentially interested in investing in my current company, and I didn’t talk shop because I was focused on business. Which was doubly stupid after he passed and I didn’t even get great stories out of it! Oh well.

    I agree with Hubert: D’Antoni got a total raw deal, though to be fair, being an inflexible prick wasn’t helpful. Still, he was right, Melo was wrong, and management of course backed Melo.

    But Woodson was probably underestimated a bit. The big problem was that he did not understand WHY his team did well (“the east is big, man”), so he made changes that played into the opponents’ strategies instead of going with the team’s strengths (which he didn’t recognize).

  70. Brian Cronin Post author

    If anyone got a raw deal from that time, it was Mike D’Antoni

    Oh, of course D’Antoni got a raw deal. Heck, in 2011/12, the Knicks had a top five defense, for crying out loud!

  71. Hubert

    But Woodson was probably underestimated a bit. The big problem was that he did not understand WHY his team did well (“the east is big, man”), so he made changes that played into the opponents’ strategies instead of going with the team’s strengths (which he didn’t recognize).

    That, to me, is why I will never say he got a raw deal. Yes, his team won. But I think his team won in spite of him. I think if you took him off that team and let them go coachless, they would have done better.

    Maybe Glen Grunwald is the guy who deserves more credit. He brought in a lot of good players on that team. Chandler, Kidd, Prigioni, Copeland. Even Kurt Thomas was an important player.

  72. Donnie Walsh

    D’Antoni got a raw deal by being given Chris Duhon and Ray Felton as the point guards to run his offensive machine.

  73. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    @82 – That year Tyson Chandler was DPOY but D’Antoni was (18-24). Woodson’s record that year was (18-6).

  74. Brian Cronin Post author

    D’Antoni got a total raw deal, though to be fair, being an inflexible prick wasn’t helpful. 

    Yeah, even though he got a raw deal, D’Antoni was a real dick during much of his tenure, so it was hard to feel too bad about it.

    Plus, they hired him at such a moronic point in time. Getting a win now coach when you’re not going to win now was such a Knicks move.

  75. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    I think the Knicks thought they were a win-now team. With Stoudemire, Melo and Chandler, the Knicks were a solid playoff team.

    BTW, it looks like Hasheem Thabeet might get a shot with the Knicks. He hasn’t played in the NBA for 5 years and wasn’t anything special when he did play. Why would they even consider him?

  76. Early Bird

    BTW, it looks like Hasheem Thabeet might get a shot with the Knicks. He hasn’t played in the NBA for 5 years and wasn’t anything special when he did play. Why would they even consider him?

    2 Theories:

    1) He’s a center
    2) He can approximate Mitch during Preseason so the 2nd unit guys get somewhat used to having a shot blocker behind them

  77. Bruno Almeida

    Woodson was totally incapable of understanding why his team was winning, and that’s the sign of a terrible coach. He was fired in 2014 and had no other head coach job since then. He might be a good assistant, but I think its clear he wasn’t a good head coach.

  78. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Thabeet was picked #2 so he must be good. Probably just in the wrong system with the wrong players. Once he gets out of the shadow of Russ and Durant and Ibaka and Caron Butler and Nick Collison and Steven Adams he has a chance to be a real complementary piece on a contender.

    Nevermind that he’s been out of the league for five years. He has a lottery pedigree and elite size. I blame the coaches that failed to maximize his potential. Wingspan length elite upside Fiz intangibles trust the process intriguing

  79. alsep73

    2) He can approximate Mitch during Preseason so the 2nd unit guys get somewhat used to having a shot blocker behind them

    But we already have Kenny Wooten as our Destitute Man’s Mitchell Robinson.

  80. TheClashFan

    Love the music discussion. I’m a bit of a casual Lou Reed fan, but definitely love the Velvet Underground. I wished when they reunited for a short time that they could’ve done a new album, but I read at the time that Reed ruined that by insisting that he produce the album, and the others did not want that.

    At any rate, I still listen to New York from time to time. Lots of his social commentary on that one are fully relevant today, just change most of the names he calls out.

  81. Brian Cronin Post author

    I think the Knicks thought they were a win-now team. With Stoudemire, Melo and Chandler, the Knicks were a solid playoff team.

    And if that’s when they hired him, that would have made sense. But they got him two seasons before STAT was signed and he was such a good coach that he took two terrible teams to a #6 and a #8 pick.

  82. swiftandabundant

    The first 3 years Woodson coached the Hawks they were bad. But they got better each year. (13 to 26 to 30 wins)

    After that, his last 6 seasons as a head coach (which included a 37 win campaign with the Hawks and a 38 win campaign with The Knicks)…his overall record that time was 246-188.

    If The Knicks had a coach that coached for 6 seasons and had an overall record of 246-188, I think we would all think that coach was pretty decent.

    Also, that “east is big” comment has turned into a meme that everyone throws out like its definitive proof that Woodson was an idiot. But that comment was taken in the context of us playing The Pacers, who WERE A big, physical defensive team.

    I’m not saying the guy is Popovich or anything. But could it be that he hasn’t gotten a head coaching job since because he coached The Knicks and we’re considered a joke of a franchise?

  83. Hubert

    Also, that “east is big” comment has turned into a meme that everyone throws out like its definitive proof that Woodson was an idiot. But that comment was taken in the context of us playing The Pacers, who WERE A big, physical defensive team.

    It *was* definitive proof that he was an idiot. Actually I won’t say idiot. He knows more about basketball than I ever well. But he was *ignorant*.

    The Pacers were big. They had trouble with small lineups. The Knicks had an incredible small line up with Copeland at the 5. All he had to do was deploy it. It was as simple as 2 plus 2 equals 4. But Woodson was so ignorant of statistical evidence that he thought the equation was 11 divided by 7 equals 46.

    I’m still not over it.

  84. alsep73

    And the way the team played in the rest of Woodson’s tenure suggests he was as uncomfortable with that style as the front office. Admittedly, the roster changed a lot, and many of the beat writers have suggested that Melo asked to not play the 4 so much. So it wasn’t entirely under his control, but there’s also plenty of circumstantial evidence suggesting he was on board with the new/old direction.

  85. swiftandabundant

    Woodson didn’t make that adjustment until after The Knicks were down 2-1. So in that series, The Knicks playing their typical style wasn’t getting it done.

    I’m not trying to say he was great or that it wasn’t a mistake to “go big.” But Kidd was useless at that point. And as I remember it, we won game 5 because he went back to play small ball. But then we lost game 6 playing that way too. The big mistake was not playing copeland.

  86. Donnie Walsh

    Also, that “east is big” comment has turned into a meme that everyone throws out like its definitive proof that Woodson was an idiot. But that comment was taken in the context of us playing The Pacers, who WERE A big, physical defensive team.

    Woodson made the statement 6 months after the Pacers series ended, in December of 2013, when Chris Herring asked him why he had abandoned the two pg lineup that had worked so well the season before. If it wasn’t proof that Woodson was oblivious to his own success, then it was proof that Dolan had mandated that his employees defend and explain the Bargnani trade at every possible moment. Cause when he made the statement, they weren’t matching up with Roy Hibbert… they had just lost to a Celtics team that had started 6’8” forward Brandon Bass at center, dropping the team to 5-15 in the Bargnani era.

  87. geo

    For me, it would be December 22nd, 1808: the night Beethoven premiered his Symphony #5 and his Symphony #6, as well as his 4th piano concerto, which he played as the soloist for. It was a Springsteenesque 4+ hours, and was the last time he’d be able to appear as a soloist due to his declining hearing. (And the best part is, the concert was panned by critics! The BeethovenBlogger.org community was like “the music is fine, but it’s too cold in the theatre to make it worth the price”, and “why max Beethoven when you can have two-way composers like Hummel, Goethe, and Joe Hadyn instead?!”)

    that was great donnie, made me smile…

    When I used to run the intern program for my company, I would always ask this question on interviews [where would you transport yourself?]. There was no right answer I just liked seeing how well-prepared kids reacted to something they weren’t expecting.

    man, tough question – still not sure how i would answer – no doubt i wouldn’t have made the cut…

    i don’t know man, although i mostly prefer rock now…i’d have to probably go with NWA and LA during that time…i don’t think i ever listened to something that bit me as hard the first time as when i first listened to: straight outta compton…that was sheer force coming out of the speakers…

  88. Brian Cronin Post author

    If The Knicks had a coach that coached for 6 seasons and had an overall record of 246-188, I think we would all think that coach was pretty decent.

    Tyronn Lue was a head coach for three full seasons. He won over 60% of his games and won three conference titles and an NBA title. How many people think Tyronn Lue is a great coach?

  89. Brian Cronin Post author

    Can you even imagine if there was a team today whose philosophy was “beat the shit out of the most famous player in the game”?

  90. DRed

    Jason Kidd was completely shot by the start of the Pacers series. He hadn’t played well in months, and Pablo Prigioni was. Not too many Knicks played well that series-I can’t promise you that if Woodson had benched JR and Kidd and played more Prigs, Copeland and idk Novak the Knicks would have certainly won, but they probably would have played better.

    Game 4, the Knicks lose in Indy by 11. Pablo Prigioni, probably the best guard on the team at that point, played less than 4 minutes while JR, Kidd and Shump combined to shoot 7-31. A certain handsome poster wrote after the game:

    So we didnt play Prigs because we needed someone who could make shots, and then gave 61 minutes of hoopless floortime to an injured Shumpert, Zombie Kidd, and noted scoring machine Kenyon Martin while two of the better shooters in the nba cooled their heels on the bench. Does this make sense to anyone?

    I liked Woodson-that was a really fun season and he was a fun personality as a coach, but that playoff run showed he had no idea what he was really doing. We kept trying to beat the Pacers by playing their game.

  91. Z-man

    I hated that fucking series! For me, the difference was Tyson Chandler playing like Andrea Bargnani while Hibbert looked like a HOFer-to-be.

  92. d-mar

    Let us not forget that in the previous series vs. Boston, chucklehead JR Smith elbowed Jason Terry in the head in a game 3 blowout, and a series that should have been a sweep went to 6 games.

    Then we got blindsided by the Pacers in game 1 at the Garden and never recovered.

  93. DRed

    We had the 3rd best offense in the NBA and a middling defense. We should not have been trying to out muscle the fucking Pacers, who had the best defense in the league.

  94. Donnie Walsh

    Then we got blindsided by the Pacers in game 1 at the Garden and never recovered.

    Are you talking about 2013 or 1995?

  95. dtrickey

    That JR elbow really changed the whole dynamic of the playoffs. I still see Hibbert’s block on Melo in my dreams. I know there is a lot more to it than that, but we were rolling up until that point.

    Great music talk too. Top 3 concerts would time travel for would be 1) Jimi Hendrix at Filmore East in 69, 2) Queen at Live Aid in 85 (I know it is a cheesy choice, but I couldn’t tell you how many times I watched that performance growing up) and 3) Crowded House’s farewell concert in 96 at the Sydney Opera House. I saw reference to Arcade Fire before. I have seen them a handful of times and they never disappoint. The shows with Bowie would have been a treat and are a real rarity as far as concerts.

    On the NYC book front, Kim Gordon of Sonic Youth’s biography has some good NYC music/arts scene anecdotes from the 80’s. Meet Me In The Bathrrom by Lizzy Goodman which chronicles NYC indie rock between 2000-2011 is worth a read if you are like me and from that era.

  96. Hubert

    Woodson didn’t make that adjustment until after The Knicks were down 2-1. So in that series, The Knicks playing their typical style wasn’t getting it done.

    The first part is correct but the second part isn’t.

    The Knicks flourished that season with a 2 PG system. It worked with either Kidd or Prigioni next to Felton. Woodson went away from that in the first three games of the pacers series. He fell in love with Melo-JR isolations. The Pacers handled that easily in game 1. They were handling it well in game 2, also, when Woodson finally went to his 2 PG lineup in the 3Q and the Knicks responded with a 20-2 run that knocked the Pacers out. Did Woodson learn? Nope. He went away from it in game 3, and we got beat easily.

    Here’s where his ignorance came. He couldn’t attribute the problem correctly. He thought we needed to rebound more. That was an idiotic assessment. I agree that Kidd was washed but Pablo was playing well. Even before Woodson failed to use Copeland at the 5, his real crime in that series was moving away from the two PG lineups that were our bread and butter all season.

  97. Hubert

    Checked espn to see the jets score and stumbled across this fascinating piece on how many calories a chess grandmaster burns while playing chess:

    https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/27593253/why-grandmasters-magnus-carlsen-fabiano-caruana-lose-weight-playing-chess

    In October 2018, Polar, a U.S.-based company that tracks heart rates, monitored chess players during a tournament and found that 21-year-old Russian grandmaster Mikhail Antipov had burned 560 calories in two hours of sitting and playing chess — or roughly what Roger Federer would burn in an hour of singles tennis.

    Robert Sapolsky, who studies stress in primates at Stanford University, says a chess player can burn up to 6,000 calories a day while playing in a tournament, three times what an average person consumes in a day.

  98. Z-man

    I’m sure people thought of it that way at the time, but for me that album makes sense in Lou’s discography because it comes after Berlin, which featured big Bob Ezrin production and highly accomplished players like Jack Bruce, Aynsley Dunbar and Steve Hunter himself. Rock And Roll Animal is a classic live album, no question.

    Lou Reed was, at the time, sort of one degree of separation removed from Kiss, believe it or not. There’s the Bob Ezrin connection, and the guitarist who played all the beautiful lead stuff on Coney Island Baby was Bob Kulick, who played as a session guy on a bunch of Kiss records. Bob Kulick almost got the Kiss gig instead of Ace Frehley, and his brother Bruce Kulick joined Kiss in the 80’s.

    I quite like the run of Lou Reed records from the late 70’s/early 80’s: Street Hassle, The Bells, The Blue Mask.

    I did some research, and it seems that Steve Hunter and Dick Wagner recalled that Lou Reed was pissed that the guitars were getting the lion’s share of the praise by critics during that tour. Wagner said that as the tour went on, Reed told them to tone it down and stop playing so much to the audience.

    Apparently, Reed went on to be forever resentful that Rock and Roll Animal upstaged his groundbreaking VU work and became his most celebrated album. I get that, as his best work and its place in the historical continuum is not really reflected in the album’s sound and pop appeal. But the Hunter/Wagner guitar work is pretty mind-blowing, and if anything, the album probably attracted fans to his other work.

  99. Early Bird

    Can you even imagine if there was a team today whose philosophy was “beat the shit out of the most famous player in the game”?

    To be fair, some would argue that’s the favored playoff strategy against Harden. It’s not on the same level and I don’t agree with it, but some would.

  100. Knew Your Nicks

    I wouldn’t mind sacrificing a protected 1-8 first round pick to see live these Music Beasts:
    1.Pink Floyd during their psychedelic period.
    2.Joy Division.
    3.Tangerine Dream mid 70s.
    4.Judas Priest in 1979.
    5.Can,Guru Guru,Ash Ra Tempel,Popol Vuh during their prime.

    Lou is cool and VU are legends but if you made me pick my fave NYC album that would have to be:
    Marquee Moon by Television.

  101. Knew Your Nicks

    Damn !
    I forgot Frank & his buddy CptBeefheart !
    Sign me in for a time travel to watch them during the Hot Rats period !

  102. Z-man

    I wouldn’t mind being transported back to that Beatles rooftop jam…

    I don’t know if it was the norm for colleges in the mid-late 70’s, but my small liberal arts college had some ass-kicking concerts while I was there:

    Santana
    Bruce Springsteen
    Grateful Dead
    Return to Forever
    Fleetwood Mac
    Billy Joel
    Little Feat
    Bob Marley

  103. d-mar

    I would loved to have been at Nirvana’s MTV unplugged performance in 1993. Their live version of The Man Who Sold the World was sublime.

  104. JK47

    Meet Me In The Bathrrom by Lizzy Goodman which chronicles NYC indie rock between 2000-2011 is worth a read if you are like me and from that era.

    I’ve been meaning to read that.

    I played on a bill that The Strokes headlined in 2001 in Toronto, and they blew me away. They were fucking amazing. It was no frills: just the five of them, no light show, very little chit chat, played pretty much their entire first album, played with great energy and fire and sounded perfect. It was truly one of the best shows I ever saw. They never really matched the greatness of that first album but they were the real deal in those early days.

    Maybe my all time favorite show was Guided By Voices at the Great American Music Hall in 1995, which was the perfect time and place to see that band. That venue is like a tiny little arena and they were like a miniature version of The Who. You could kind of half close your eyes and pretend they were playing a football stadium or something. It was the Alien Lanes tour, classic lineup. I bought a tour t-shirt for $5 and I gave it away to a friend of mine who still has it and refuses to give it back.

  105. JK47

    Other historical musical events I would like to have attended:

    Prince and the Revolution at First Avenue the night they debuted “Purple Rain”
    Bill Evans Trio at the Village Vanguard the nights they recorded the live album
    Fred Neil at any of the McDougal Street/Greenwich Village clubs he played
    Any of the “Good Vibrations” recording sessions
    Any of the “Another Green World” recording sessions
    Van Halen at the Whiskey Au Go Go circa 1977
    Jane’s Addiction at Scream circa 1987

  106. TheClashFan

    Man, there’s dozens of artists I would have liked to see in their prime.

    I’d love to go back to the 1590’s or early 1600’s in London and see one of Shakespeare’s plays with him onstage with the Lord Chamberlain’s Men.

    I saw REM in late 1982, way before they got big and inflated. Amazing club show on a Thursday night with like 20-30 people in the club. I stood just a few feet away from Michael Stipe while he thrashed about the stage, then would stop and stare intently out at individuals in the crowd. They instantly became my favorite band for several years.

  107. Donnie Walsh

    I don’t know if it was the norm for colleges in the mid-late 70’s, but my small liberal arts college had some ass-kicking concerts while I was there

    Colgate.

  108. Donnie Walsh

    Bill Evans Trio at the Village Vanguard the nights they recorded the live album

    I find myself there almost every time I mix pot and red wine.

  109. swiftandabundant

    Troubadour in the late 69s/early 70s must have been wild especially seeing The Doors live.

    Also, Pink Floyd in the 60’s when they were the London house band for the acid experiments must have been….a trip. Or later the dark side tour.

  110. dtrickey

    I played on a bill that The Strokes headlined in 2001 in Toronto, and they blew me away. They were fucking amazing. It was no frills: just the five of them, no light show, very little chit chat, played pretty much their entire first album, played with great energy and fire and sounded perfect. It was truly one of the best shows I ever saw. They never really matched the greatness of that first album but they were the real deal in those early days.

    That is pretty sweet. Julian Casablancas really epitomises that 00’s era of indie rock. I saw them in about 2006 around the time First Impressions of Earth came out, so their sets were a bit slicker on the production values, but Casablancas was just effortlessly cool. I would tend to agree that Is This It is easily their best work, but I always thought Room On Fire was underrated in the grand scheme of 00’s indie rock (if it is indeed possible for The Strokes to ever be underrated when they are consistently over hyped ha ha).

  111. KnickfaninNJ

    I’d be interested in seeing the Newport music where Dylan was booed because he went electric instead of acoustic. I have no idea if it was a great concert or not, but it was certainly a significant musical event. That and some of the club stuff mentioned above.

  112. Donnie Walsh

    History has it as Dylan getting booed for going electric, but the people that were there said it was because he only did three songs and they all sounded terrible.

    I’ve enjoyed this thread of time machine scenarios. I’d take it to any MSG show ever, I suppose, cause it would guarantee me not accidentally watching a Knicks game that night.

    (and I’ve been waiting patiently for Giana Dani to say “she”’d take the time machine to 1978 to catch the Cheeseburger In Paradise Tour at every stop)

  113. JK47

    The best thing about Dylan at Newport was that after he got booed, he got back up and played acoustic, and closed with “It’s All Over Now, Baby Blue,” a sublime kiss-off to the squares who wanted to keep him in the safe little folkie box. The actual electric performance was “meh,” the hastily assembled band was under-rehearsed.

    Soon after that he went on tour with The Hawks backing him and gave his uptight folk audience a proper middle finger. Those people booing Dylan and the Hawks (The Band minus Levon Helm) were turning their noses up at some of the best rock music ever created at that time. Those shows are well documented and were definitely time machine-worthy.

  114. Brian Cronin Post author

    The actual electric performance was “meh,” the hastily assembled band was under-rehearsed.

    And even there, it’s definitely a case where the people there were just so shocked or outraged that they greatly exaggerated what it actually sounded like at the time. It’s a fairly straightforward performance, really…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8yU8wk67gY

    I do agree that yeah, it wasn’t nearly as good as the more rehearsed stuff later on.

    Soon after that he went on tour with The Hawks backing him and gave his uptight folk audience a proper middle finger. Those people booing Dylan and the Hawks (The Band minus Levon Helm) were turning their noses up at some of the best rock music ever created at that time. Those shows are well documented and were definitely time machine-worthy.

    The 1966 audiences were so stupid, because “Like a Rolling Stone” was a major hit at the time that he was touring, so obviously his “electric” stuff was very popular, and yet people would still go to the concert of the very popular artist performing his very popular songs and boo when he plays his hit song. It was just stupidity.

  115. Nick C.

    Reading all these reminded me of our HS band concert early 80s in Peekskill New York. There was a kid, well friend actually we were in most of the same classes, sitting playing along on an electric guitar. They played Johnny B. Goode. He started duck walking during the solo and the auditorium went wild.

    I saw most of the big names of the mid 80s that played the Dome at Syracuse. I saw a double bill of Iron Maiden/Judas Priest downtown and an Aerosmith show that seemed way too short, presumably because Tyler came out doing back in the saddle while the band was playing Last Child.

    There were block parties in the fall at Walnut Park that had some eclectic performers, including pre-Buster Poindexter, post NY dolls David Johansen and Psychedelic Furs before Love My way hit. I was more interested in the block party aspect of it to recall anything magical.

    On the time travel note The Whiskey A Go Go Doors or whatever the club was where they broke came to mind. My mom has a real life one, being that as a exchange nursing student in England in 1963 some friends took her to the beach at Southampton to see the Rolling Stones play.

  116. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    I apologize about nudging this conversation back to hoops.

    Yesterday the Knicks signed Amir Hinton, Lamar Peters, VJ King and Kenny Wooten to training camp deals. I really like the idea of Kenny Wooten on this team and having a second legit rim defender. Who does he bump?

  117. ess-dog

    Some good lists here!

    Best shows I’ve seen were:

    1. Prince during the Purple Rain tour when I was 11, and I was forever changed.

    2. Guns n Roses at a racetrack in Alabama. I’m not sure which tour it was but it was definitely the original lineup and they brought it. Skid Row opened and was awful.

    3. Radiohead on the OK Computer tour – just absolutely brilliant. Nothing else to say.

    I’ve seen a lot of others, but many not in their purest heydays, so it wasn’t as memorable. I was also in Athens Ga during the whole Elephant 6 thing, and it was very cool but not earth shattering.

    Shows I realistically wished I’d seen was Nirvana and Pavement on their first tours but c’est la vie.

  118. Hubert

    Meet Me In The Bathrrom by Lizzy Goodman which chronicles NYC indie rock between 2000-2011 is worth a read if you are like me and from that era.

    That was a wonderful read, too. 2000-2008 was my peak time, having moved to NYC as a 21 year old. I probably would have faded sooner if James Murphy hadn’t arrived and revitalized my interest as it was waning. I was probably at a few arcade fire shows w Owen (tho definitely not the Bowie one, sadly).

    My personal highlight was seeing the Strokes, shortly after they broke out, play their first album at mercury lounge under the moniker “the shitty Beatles.”

    That was a pretty epic time if you were into that kinda music. There were so many strokes derivatives playing around NYC and a lot of them were pretty darn good. I remember being miffed that one of my favorites, a band called stellastarr* whose bassist was my platonic ideal of a female, didn’t have more fame while the band that used to open for them, the killers, broke out. I wasn’t a big mr bright side guy.

    There was a pretty big emo scene that wasn’t in the book, too. I was captivated by Elliot Smith from the first moment I heard “xo waltz” on WFUV. Was lucky to see him at Iriving Plaza before it was too late. Conor Oberst was pretty ubiquitous back then, too. And Mason Jennings was big in my little circle.

  119. alsep73

    I really like the idea of Kenny Wooten on this team and having a second legit rim defender. Who does he bump?

    If he plays well enough in camp to earn the second two-way slot (which opened up after the Knicks withdrew their offer to Kris Wilkes), then he doesn’t bump anybody. But that’s the only way he can realistically be a part of the big club before the trade deadline. Because Perry and Mills spent all their cap space like it was running out of style, all 15 roster spots are filled with guys whose deals are guaranteed for this season. So one of three things can happen with Wooten for the time being:

    1)Signed to a two-way, mostly plays in Westchester, but possibly comes up if one or more of our redundant big men gets hurt.
    2)The two-way deal either goes to someone else or is held in reserve in case another NBDL prospect catches Perry’s fancy. Wooten stays on the Exhibit 20 deal we already gave him, plays in Westchester at least until we may clear a roster spot at the deadline, if not for the whole season, and is more of a consideration for the 2020-21 squad.
    3)Some other team likes what they see of Wooten and signs him away because we didn’t want to give him that two-way slot.

  120. Early Bird

    I really like the idea of Kenny Wooten on this team and having a second legit rim defender. Who does he bump?

    I believe we voided Kris Wilkes contract, so we have a 2-way spot available. Wooten should be the #1 choice.

  121. Hubert

    man, tough question – still not sure how i would answer – no doubt i wouldn’t have made the cut…

    The trick wasn’t to have a good answer, it was to compose yourself enough in the face of something you weren’t prepared for and be able to give a well thought out response.

    I once hired someone who’s answer was “Bon Jovi in the 80s in New Jersey”. It was 2008. I told him he wasted a time machine to go see someone who’s probably going to play at the meadowlands next summer, but it was ok. He’s getting the job despite that. I wasn’t judging his musical taste. Which was good for him bc I really don’t like Bon Jovi.

  122. Hubert

    I’ve been waiting patiently for Giana Dani to say “she”’d take the time machine to 1978 to catch the Cheeseburger In Paradise Tour at every stop

    I saw Jimmy Buffett unexpectedely come on stage to play with Lukas Nelson two weeks ago on Labor Day. Not gonna lie: I was pretty excited.

    I don’t know if Buffett has the respect of the cool music crowd, but I can tell you for sure that many artists are in awe of him. This was the second year in a row I saw him pop up at the same place, out in Montauk. Last year he joined Wyclef Jean, who was following Lupe Fiasco. You wouldn’t think those two were parrotheads, but I’m telling you, they turned into fanboys when he got on stage.

  123. mase

    You saw him at the surf lodge?
    I saw in sag harbor play impromptu At a bar on New Year’s Eve ten years ago. He had a real presence and I walked away impressed but haven’t ever gone out of my way to listen to any of his songs since.

  124. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    “Fournier about frank (p2)

    Question:
    Frank was in full confidence at this World Cup,did he surprise you?

    For me, he’s a very good player & unfortunately he’s in a crappy situation in NYC. He doesn’t have the opportunity to show what he can do. In the NBA it depends on the system”

  125. Donnie Walsh

    I saw Jimmy Buffett unexpectedely come on stage to play with Lukas Nelson two weeks ago on Labor Day. Not gonna lie: I was pretty excited.

    I don’t know if Buffett has the respect of the cool music crowd, but I can tell you for sure that many artists are in awe of him. This was the second year in a row I saw him pop up at the same place, out in Montauk. Last year he joined Wyclef Jean, who was following Lupe Fiasco. You wouldn’t think those two were parrotheads, but I’m telling you, they turned into fanboys when he got on stage.

    You’re more likely to convince Jowles that Andra Bargnani is a good basketball player than you are to convince me that Jimmy Buffet is a good musician. (I know Buffet has got good “counting stats” with his #1 all-time hit song and all, but, seriously, there has never been somebody who’s done so much with so little… like Steve Mills, but with a guitar:)

  126. Scorpio Dragon

    Well, Eli’s washed. And there’s no sense in putting a delay on getting Jones’ playing time with Barkley. I don’t think it’ll matter much for this season, but Eli does nothing to help the franchise this season by playing. He’s not going to get the Giants wins and he’s not going to be playing meaningful football in the future. I just hope he retires at the end of the year instead of trying to latch on to some different team.

  127. Brador

    I went to Motown Revue shows at Fox Theater in Detroit in early seventies, Two different years. All the stars would come out and do 3 song sets. Later a friend, who was a studio musician would bring Marvin Gaye over to smoke weed.

  128. d-mar

    I was fortunate enough to see Bob Marley at MSG about 6 months before he died. Incredible show and the entire arena was one giant cloud of pot smoke.

    (Funny story, my friend asked the rasta looking guy next to him for a match and he handed him a joint.)

  129. alsep73

    Well, Eli’s washed. And there’s no sense in putting a delay on getting Jones’ playing time with Barkley. I don’t think it’ll matter much for this season, but Eli does nothing to help the franchise this season by playing. He’s not going to get the Giants wins and he’s not going to be playing meaningful football in the future.

    All of this. The team has enormous problems, and I fear Gettleman is just an arrogant blowhard who doesn’t understand how the game has passed him by. But we need to see what we have in Jones. And there’s a chance that someone who is way more mobile than Eli is at this point might be able to more in this offense going forward. Eli’s not the reason they’ve been losing, but he also hasn’t done anything suggesting he’d be the primary reason they won games this year. It’s well past time.

  130. swiftandabundant

    I’m not even a huge fan but I saw TV On The Radio’s second gig ever in a bar in Williamsburg back in 2001 or 2002. It was an afternoon slot at like 4pm on a Wednesday and there were about 20 people there. My friend briefly dated one of the dudes from that band. Me and her and a few other people went and I remember they just blew everyone away with how different they sounded. The set was all over the place but the songs they played were incredible. That’s probably the coolest gig I’ve ever been to as far as catching a band that got big before they got big.

    I recently saw Ghosts Of The Forest at The Greek here in LA (with Yo La Tengo, one of my favorites, opening). Ghosts of the Forest is Trey Anastasio’s side project. I’m not a huge Phish fan but they definitely can play but this concert was incredible. It was like Phish meets Dark Side of the Moon era Pink Floyd. It was a great concert because I had no expectations going in of what the music was going to sound like and it ended up being an incredible concert, maybe the best one I’ve ever been to.

  131. The Infamous Cdiggy

    @146 co-sign.
    Here’s the thing about football: I’ve always believed that, more than the other major sports, it’s an emotion-fueled sport. At best, it actually can be a tangible asset to a team. For example:

    I’m sure most of yall by now have heard of Toni Harris. Guess where she played last year? So I had a conversation with the head coach about her impact – his initial concern was her size and moreso talent level (as a 5′ 6″ DB). But he also said she worked her tail off and was extremely persistent, and her teammates responded to that. And he agreed with me that that kind of thing can raise the spirit of a team which can manifest itself tangibly on the field.

    So my point is that if Jones’s play can ignite an emotional spark in his teammates, it can translate into a more competitive team. Probably won’t equal more wins, but it can tangibly improve the product on the field from what we’ve seen so far… and give everyone hope for the future of the franchise.

  132. JK47

    TV On The Radio ended up having the most impressive career of all the NYC bands from that time.

    I love Yo La Tengo, have seen them a million times and make sure to check them out every time they come through LA. They’ve been making incredible records for a solid 25 years now, not a dud in the bunch.

  133. Hubert

    You saw him at the surf lodge?

    Yeah, he joined Lukas Nelson (who was remarkable, btw, and is Willie’s son fwiw).

    You’re more likely to convince Jowles that Andra Bargnani is a good basketball player than you are to convince me that Jimmy Buffet is a good musician.

    I don’t think he’s a good musician. I’m just saying he generated awe among the musicians I saw him with. Wyclef is a great musician. He was the headliner that day, and he was remarkable. But when Jimmy Buffett came on, Wyclef jumped in the crowd and was standing next to me taking videos. I would imagine the awe comes from how prodigious his work is, not necessarily the quality.

  134. DRed

    Kevin Knox is bigger and likes the competition for playing time this year, and Evan Fournier thinks we should play Frank more. That’s the news roundup.

  135. Owen

    Hubert, you and I probably have been to a lot of the same shows. I saw stellastarr play but can’t remember if it was with the killers. It might have been, I saw them a couple of times. 2004-9 I saw a ton of shows and most are a blur.

    Meet Me in the Bathroom is a fantastic book. It’s an oral history so it’s all primary source material. I am not sure how interesting it would be to someone who has no interest in that era of music but if you were at all involved it is deeply fascinating.

    As for Jimmy Buffett, you have to respect the business sense.

  136. The Infamous Cdiggy

    And by the way, Eli’s career record stands at 116-116. Mara ain’t letting another losing season drag his QB to a sub-.500 record. He not about that life, and he ain’t fooling us either.

  137. TheClashFan

    For fans of current indie rock, I drove up to Lexington, KY last week to see Hot Snakes, who put on a great, energetic show for guys in their late 40’s/early 50’s. My wife and youngest son (19) went with me, so a family affair. My son’s first rock and roll show.

    One of the opening bands was the weird Des Demonas, who I rather liked. After their set, I had a nice chat with their lead singer, who is originally from Africa and has a thick British accent. They’re sort of like the Doors on acid, and with chanting vocals.

    Wow, what an ugly game for the Jets last night. Sheesh. And the Mets are finally fading away…

  138. ess-dog

    @Hubert,

    Ha, I slightly knew the bassist from Stellastarr from art school. She was very cute and dated the drummer I think. I wasn’t crazy about their sound, but it did seem like they should’ve gotten really big. No idea what became of them.

  139. The Infamous Cdiggy

    I haven’t been to many concerts. The first was in 1990 – Geto Boys and Public Enemy at the Garden.
    I remember when Wu Tang hit in ’94. I’m living in the Bronx during my high school years. I mean, it was like nothing I’ve ever seen in hip hop. Cats were like, “I gotta have my Wu”. It wasn’t just a movement, but a penetration, a literal swarm over hip hop and NY. Just genius.

    Back to Knicks: I’ve never seen so much digital ink spilled about a seemingly underwhelming player such as Frank. Not just here or on P&T either. It almost makes you think the stats, advanced stats and eyetest from last year are missing something.

    I just want to see him play this year with high confidence.

  140. Bo Nateman

    1973 or 1974
    George Clinton and Parliament-Funkadelic ( Bootsy Collins. Bernie Worell) at a place called Joint in the Woods somewhere in New Jersey.

  141. JK47

    Those clips of the early live Wu shows in that recent documentary are incredible. The atmosphere in the room is palpable.

  142. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    I gotta say, I’m sorta happy that Darnold has mono. If he didn’t, he would be under center, running for his life. That could have been his leg that bent in a way that a leg shouldn’t bend yesterday. I feel bad for Trevor Seimian but he’s not the future of the Jet franchise.
    Going to the Yankee game tonight and lucked out – I’ll be seeing Severino pitch.
    As a Jet fan and Knick fan I wake up every day thanking God that I’m a Yankee fan.

  143. DRed

    Yeah I’m glad my Dad was a Yankees fan.

    the Jets should really sign Kaepernick just for fun but there’s no way the ambassador to great britain is going to sign off on that.

  144. Dink

    the Jets should really sign Kaepernick just for fun but there’s no way the ambassador to great britain is going to sign off on that.

    Hell yes. This could actually make the season interesting. Lil’ bro Chris seems to be slightly more progressive than Woody, so I’m hoping they make it happen.

  145. Hubert

    I kind of wish Saquon Barkley had mono so we wouldn’t waste him this season. We really should put him in bubble wrap until the rest of the team is ready.

  146. wetbandit

    1973 or 1974
    George Clinton and Parliament-Funkadelic ( Bootsy Collins. Bernie Worell) at a place called Joint in the Woods somewhere in New Jersey.

    Jumping in just to say Funkadelic’s Maggot Brain is one of my favorite tracks ever. Mind-melting.

  147. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    One of my favorite concerts was also one of my favorite gigs, opening for Blues Traveler at Columbia University, to maybe 80 people. They destroyed us, but it was totally OK because they were obviously headed for real success and it was a treat just to see Popper go for it. All I knew at that time was Little Walter, James Cotton, and that kind of Chicago harp player, so it was pretty mind-blowing. And they were super nice dudes, which made it all the better.

    Second was probably a Prince concert where I ended up in the fourth row dancing with a hot chick. He was so, so good live, and somehow it was even better because I belonged in the bleacher seats instead and had just snuck down to the front.

    I think a sneak album debut gig by Fishbone at CBs might be up there, but it’s hard to remember because I was knocked unconscious. Now those were some wild shows.

    But yeah, Wu is at the top for sure, because I worked with RZA and was in a privileged spot for any gig I wanted. One of my favorite memories is making them all smoothies because they were too high to work the blender. Then I was on smoothie duty for like three shows after that.

    I try not to think about all that because it would really make me miss music. Super envious of JK!

  148. JK47

    One of my favorite concerts was also one of my favorite gigs, opening for Blues Traveler at Columbia University, to maybe 80 people. They destroyed us, but it was totally OK because they were obviously headed for real success and it was a treat just to see Popper go for it. All I knew at that time was Little Walter, James Cotton, and that kind of Chicago harp player, so it was pretty mind-blowing. And they were super nice dudes, which made it all the better.

    One of the first tours I ever did was opening for Blues Traveler. I was playing with Pete Yorn at the time and their fanbase was not into us at all, we were a really weird choice for an opener. But they really were the nicest guys. Jam band music is not my cup of tea at all, I’m a punk rocker at heart, but I liked those guys a lot. They were sweethearts. Plus I got to play at Red Rocks as part of that tour.

    They also had amazing food, it was a relatively small tour but they brought a personal chef and she had ovens and shit in big road cases. Southern cooking every day. Good times.

  149. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    the Jets should really sign Kaepernick just for fun but there’s no way the ambassador to great britain is going to sign off on that.

    I agree that there’s no way that happens because of J&J but it’s the right move. And yeah, I would love to be a fly on the wall at Thanksgiving if Chris signed off on Kap!

    BTW, I think the Jets and Giants should get lots of bubble wrap for their studs. This year’s another disaster.

  150. Knew Your Nicks

    Got myself a used cd copy of Ariel Pink Haunted Graffiti – House Arrest on Sunday and listened it just a few minutes ago.
    WoW !
    Lofi garage pop psychedelia of the highest order !
    Pretty Unique production, very eclectic underground arrangements and A class writing.
    Jk47 I don’t know if you’re playing on this one man but gotta say that if you’re still in this band you just earned one more fan.

    Best Live I’ve ever seen: Portishead with dj Andy Smith on 1998 right next to the sea during the summer along with Spiritualized and Asian Dub Foundation.

  151. JK47

    “House Arrest” is all Ariel on his four track. It’s a fucking powerhouse of an album. We played just about every song from that live at one point or another during my tenure in the band. If you like that one, you should check out “Worn Copy,” which is probably my favorite of all his lo-fi four track stuff.

  152. Knew Your Nicks

    First listening in the car while driving wasn’t what we’d say a close one but i must confess i was impressed !
    The guy KNOWS what he’s doing PRETTY WELL and sounds to me like he has a unique compositional talent + pretty good knowledge of the music that interests him + love for music in general.
    Thanks for the recommendation but i must admit that you+your band entered the category of my ‘get whatever you find from this artist/band’ so I’ll grab whatever passes in front of me !
    A category which includes bands&artists like Stereolab, flaming Lips, Bardo Pond, Screaming Trees, Legendary Pink Dots, Sonic Youth, David Bowie, Brian Eno++++
    Bands that have never betrayed me !

  153. Knew Your Nicks

    Fortunately for me in music i have the privilege/choice/will to search and listen whatever soothes my soul without need to stay loyal to my childhood listenings (unless they’re good!)
    while on nba loyalty has destroy my psychology for 3 decades !!!

  154. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    Worst concert I can remember is David Bowie, not because he was terrible – though it wasn’t his best phase – it was because Nine Inch Nails opened for him, and though some people were there for him or for both bands (like me), a lot of people were there for Reznor, and they were literally throwing stuff at the stage during Bowie’s set. THROWING SHIT AT DAVID BOWIE. I was incensed. He cut the set short, and it was a serious bummer of a night for me.

    I mean, I’ve seen some bad performances, but as an experience, that was the worst.

  155. bidiong

    Hopefully Eli wants to go to Pittsburgh and gets to finish his career out with a good line and a winning season. He may just want to stay in NY with his family though.

  156. Knew Your Nicks

    Bowie is universally known and adored for his 70s albums but 2 albums that he made in the 90s (the time when he and Reznor made some stuff together) are among his best/and among decade’s best imo and kick ass pretty seriously.
    Outside & Earthling.
    Guys that throw bottles at Bowie need help.

  157. geo

    love this thread…got me jonesing for some live music…

    i really haven’t been to a ton of live shows, but i remember being home for the weekend and driving on the LIE into the city to go catch the simon/garfunkel show in the park…it had been drizzling outside the whole way from patchogue…i’m not sure where exactly, but, there’s this one rise on the LIE as your heading west where you can suddenly see the whole city – it just so happened to have stopped raining right at the spot…i pulled over to find a puddle to splash some water in my face, and just stared at the city for a minute…

    ended up parking somewhere on the west side…must have left my lights on or something cuz i remember after the show needing to step out in to the street with cables in my hand to stop someone for a jump…i remember getting goosebumps when mrs robinson started coming out of those monster speakers…

    most impressive thing i remember seeing was george thorogood opening for the stones at jfk in philly…i just couldn’t figure out how one guy with his guitar (no disrespect to the rest of the destroyers) could rock a whole stadium like that…i was in awe, fan ever since…

    first time i ever learned that currency could be used for paraphernalia was watching earth wind & fire at the garden…why in the world is that dude rolling up a bill like that :)

  158. Nick C.

    Dont you just love those momentary spots on the road where a majestic view opens up for an instant or something special first comes into view.

  159. Z-man

    My first concert was Johnny Winter at MSG in 1973…my older brother took me down in a ’65 GTO with a 389 and 3 carburetors. I don’t remember the concert very well, but the car ride was harrowing, especially the stretch on the old elevated West Side Highway. I’m sure some old folks here know what I’m talking about.

  160. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    This is my only entertaining music story.

    I’m not s serious musician, but I play some guitar, primarily acoustic and electric blues. When I was going through my acoustic phase, I went to BB Kings club in Manhattan one night to see Robert Lockwood Jr because I liked his style and it was within my limited range. (Robert Johnson was his huge influence). He was really old at the time. He was playing with some other famous old timers. One of them was David “Honeyboy” Edwards. I was sitting at a table right in front of the stage. They were playing an acoustic finger picking number and HoneyBoy started playing a lick that I absolutely loved. It’s blues tradition to steal licks and this was great one. So I started straining to see what he was doing by leaning forward and focusing entirely on his left hand. I must have been obvious because after the song he held his guitar out right in front of my face and played it slowly. He looked down at me and said, “You have it?” I said “Yes. Thank you”. He smiled and went back to business.

    What a moment for me. An old time blues legend took the time to show me his lick before they went on to the next song. The only problem is that it was a number of years ago and I can’t remember much about it other than it had a nice bass run to 5 chord.

  161. geo

    Dont you just love those momentary spots on the road where a majestic view opens up for an instant or something special first comes into view.

    it’s funny, for the life of me, i’ve been trying to think of another instant where something similar occurred – the only thing that comes to mind is when i used to travel back and forth from monmouth, nj to out on the island (the southern state parkway was a blast to drive on as a kid) on the weekends…there was this huge landfill on staten island that i used to pass all the time…it just amazed me that a mountain of trash like that could exist anywhere…i’m sure somewhere up in my mental rolodex there’s gotta be something more pleasant than that buried somewhere…

  162. Z-man

    In fact, it’s hard to think of a concert I’d rather be at than Woodstock…so many all-time greats in their primes, the historical significance…probably an ordeal but one I would gladly weather.

  163. Nick C.

    I was at the 25th Anniversary. The Allmans were awesome. Now that I’m thinking Blind Melon played, Metallica as well. It was with a girlfriend and other friends. Screaming the words to Liar with the guys when Rollins played, in retrospect, might have been a not so hot idea. Getting Love the one You’re With sung to you seemed special at the time. In retrospect the breakup within a month or so was foreshadowed.

  164. dtrickey

    On the topic of worst concerts, I think mine would be MGMT back in about 2008. Oracular Spectacular was an absolute beast at the time and they were playing at the Meredith Music Festival. They were the hyped band on the lineup and they sounded absolutely shit house. Probably didn’t help it rained all weekend which made the experience not great, but it was such a massive let down because they were very mediocre. I have seen them since and they were definitely better, but not a band known for their live chops.

    P.S. if you ever find yourself in South West Victoria in December, seriously get along to this festival. It only sells a limited amount of tickets and is held on a family farm that has a natural amphitheatre. Lineups are the odd semi big name with a lot of small acts. Chances are you will leave having discovered a new favourite. All ages festival so you get a diverse crowd of younger people looking to have a big one, to families coming along for a day for a picnic and live music with the kids.

  165. ess-dog

    Re: the coming dumpster fire of a season,

    Who do you think – if anyone – will make a legit leap this season? You know, to a level of improvement where other teams would suddenly really want that player on their current contract?

    If you had to pick one.

    I don’t particularly have a lot of faith in him, but I’m going to go with DSJ, mostly because he’s around the right age to take a leap, and who knows, maybe he’s fixed his shot?

  166. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    The performances, engineering and arrangements on that newest MGMT album are so good that there’s no way it could translate live. I had never been a fan until that one and it’s pretty funny to hear my friends incredulous as the guy who got them into late-era Talk Talk and early psych-punk MBV is trying to convince them to listen to the band that infected their college years with the Urban Outfitters fest-bro jams.

    Best live band I’ve seen is Death Grips, hands down. My wife, for whom industrial glitch hip-hop is decidedly not a thing, joined me for a Bottomless Pit tour date and was converted as soon as the lights went down. The reason I bring this up is that Ministry played as headliner and all of the crowd save a smattering of crusty 40-somethings vanished when DG left the stage. That must have been quite the set (I too vanished).

  167. dtrickey

    DSJ and Mitch seem the most likely. DSJ especially if his rebuilt jump shot is legit. Payton maybe as well if there is a market at the deadline for backup PG’s. That being said, I gave up on making Knicks predictions a while ago ha ha

  168. JK47

    P.S. if you ever find yourself in South West Victoria in December, seriously get along to this festival. It only sells a limited amount of tickets and is held on a family farm that has a natural amphitheatre.

    I played Meredith Music Festival with Sia in 2009, before she went nuclear famous. I did Golden Plains with Ariel Pink in 2012, which I think is on the same grounds. We also did the Laneway tour in 2011, which was one of the most fun things I ever did in my touring career. You ever go to that? That was a blast.

  169. Z-man

    The guy I expect to surprise is…..Kevin Knox. I see him making major strides from where he left off last year…more passing, better shot selection, stronger moves to the basket, somewhat better defensive conceptualization. I see him around league average in fewer minutes and far less of a role.

  170. dtrickey

    The performances, engineering and arrangements on that newest MGMT album are so good that there’s no way it could translate live. I had never been a fan until that one and it’s pretty funny to hear my friends incredulous as the guy who got them into late-era Talk Talk and early psych-punk MBV is trying to convince them to listen to the band that infected their college years with the Urban Outfitters fest-bro jams.

    I quite enjoyed their recent one too, although I have always at a minimum appreciated everything they have done post Oracular Spectacular without loving it. Could have easily fallen into the rut of producing more Kids and Electric Feels, but opted to go down a pretty un-commercial route with their sound. Laughing Stock by Talk Talk also rules since you raised them.

  171. dtrickey

    I played Meredith Music Festival with Sia in 2009, before she went nuclear famous. I did Golden Plains with Ariel Pink in 2012, which I think is on the same grounds. We also did the Laneway tour in 2011, which was one of the most fun things I ever did in my touring career. You ever go to that? That was a blast.

    No shit! I was there in 09. I had had a few beers by the time Sia’s set rolled around, but remember it being very good ha ha. Jarvis Cocker from Pulp played that year too IIRC. I missed Laneway in 2011, but that is always a great festival. Always has probably the best indie/alternative lineups. It’s starting to have a few commercial elements creep in, but the lineups are always so good you have to give it serious consideration even if your festival days are a bit behind you ha ha. Golden Plains is always pretty good value too.

  172. Brian Cronin Post author

    I think Trier seems like he has an easiest path to a leap.

    Mitch doesn’t need to take the leap, so I’m not counting him. Otherwise, he’d be the clear choice.

  173. geo

    I think Trier seems like he has an easiest path to a leap.

    do you mean in terms of passing, rebounding, facilitating – or just as a more efficient and consistent scoring threat?

    look, i’m like one of the millsperry d’oh boys – i ain’t thinking in terms of defense…

  174. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    That’s an awesome first concert, Z-man. Mine was…the Beach Boys. Oh well, I was 11.

    Strat, love that story. When I was a kid I got to hang out with James Cotton – I loved him because of Muddy’s “Hard Again” album (though I was too young even to get the double entendre). He put on a great show, though the second time I saw him his voice was so shot I gave him my cough drops.

    Biggest surprise of the season? That I’m going to have to check out an MGMT album…

  175. Z-man

    If I recall correctly, my second concert was Bowie at MSG in 1974 during the Diamond Dogs tour. He was great then…no thrown debris!

  176. Knew Your Nicks

    I saw an ‘Oracular Spectacular’ used cd copy 2 weeks ago at my local cd store.
    I knew them from their pretty hyped & successful singles that were heavily been played on tv&radio and was little afraid to ‘touch em’.
    The cd was placed among the pop stuff next to madonna&co….
    A sticker on the front tho was writing ‘produced by Dave Fridmann’.(From Mercury Rev)
    Yes Sir ! Grabbed it without second thoughts.
    Pretty solid neopsychedelic pop.
    Recommended.

  177. Brian Cronin Post author

    I guess I’m expecting Trier to make a leap, Knox is more of my dark horse pick…

    Well, if you take out Trier (and Mitch is excluded, which I agree that he should be excluded), then Knox really is the only other feasible candidate, right? The odds of DSJ or Payton or Frank taking leaps now seem to be highly unlikely, while Knox is still enough of an unknown that there is still the possibility of it happening.

  178. geo

    millsperry d’oh boys

    lol

    that ain’t me – ugh for the life of me can’t remember who here put that together…

    fuck, I can remember shit from 1981 like it happened this morning, but, last week is a complete blur…

  179. Early Bird

    I’m going out on a limb and will say Randle will make another leap. In popularity, if nothing else.

    I certainly see Knox improving, but going from league worst to “he might be better than Ntilikina” isn’t much to write home about.

  180. ess-dog

    I wanted to say Randle, but I don’t know where he can really improve because of his limitations… unless he becomes a really great post distributor and 3pt shooter. Idk who the comp would be… Laimbeer?

    I assumed that Mitch really wouldn’t count here. And I don’t think there’s any way Knox gets to league average this year… maybe next year though.

  181. Hubert

    What would constitute a leap for Allonzo Trier?

    I think his ideal is my main squeeze, Buddy Hield. He only needs to get his percentages up slightly and to reduce the turnovers. That would make him better. Is that a leap?

    I think a leap for Trier is marginal improvement on offense combined with becoming good on defense. Unfortunately I don’t ever see that happening.

  182. Hubert

    I don’t really see a leap from any of these guys. Even Mitchell. I expect improvement, but no leap.

    The best one is Early Bird’s pick of Randle. If he becomes a more complete offensive player and does it as the team’s #1 option, that’s a pretty big step forward for him. He seems capable of it.

    I still like Knox and expect him to improve, but I’d circle his age 21 season if I’m looking for a year he potentially breaks out.

    The best candidate for a leap is Dennis Smith. I just don’t expect it to happen.

  183. Hubert

    https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/9/18/20871049/giants-jets-helmet-catch-butt-fumble-daniel-jones-sam-darnold

    ^ this was an enjoyable and well-deserved mockery of our two area football teams.

    Reporter: “[Odell] is one of the dynamic players in the league”

    Gregg Williams: “That’s your opinion…what did the Giants do?”

    See what I mean about the maelstrom of incompetence? Here we have the Jets’ billion-decibel fart of a defensive coordinator pointing to the Giants’ brain-optional decision-making as hard evidence for his own correctness, seemingly unaware that it’s a bad idea for an assistant coach to spend his days trash-talking hypertalented players on upcoming opponents.

    Sigh.

  184. KnickfaninNJ

    I find it hard to believe Trier will get enough playing time to demonstrate a leap. If I had to pick one guy who might make a leap it’s actually Ntilikina. He got very good experience this summer and probably had a TS of about 0.500 for the tournament. He played with well respected NBA professionals. If he could replicate that TS in the NBA and actually run effective pick and rolls (which he did in FIBA) I think most people here would consider that a big leap.

  185. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    I like this question. It had me thinking. In a perfect world I might have gone with Dotson to take the leap but I think he’s not getting the opportunity. Dotson has been solid boring since we drafted him in the 2nd round. But I don’t think he’ll have the opportunity. That being said, I give the nod to DSJ. It’s boom or bust for him this year. Either he or Elfrid needs to grab hold of that starting PG role. So my #2 choice is Peyton. I’m down on Ntilikina and Knox.

  186. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    Part 1

    Trier doesn’t defend well and plays low IQ basketball. As of right now, his ceiling looks like a very good scoring 6th man off the bench.

    Dotson has a shot to become a solid two-way rotation player on a very good team, but his injury and surgery this off season is going to set his development back at least a year.

    Knox looks like a volume scorer that will improve his efficiency over time with more strength around the rim and better shot selection, but as a strongly negative defender without many other skills, unless he can get his scoring efficiency up to an elite level, he’s a bench player. Personally, pending what I see early this season, I’d probably look to move him.

    Randle is a high efficiency scorer that can rebound and pass well enough to really like. However, since he’s a negative defender he’s bound to be very overrated by boxscore models and fans. Still, in the right lineups he’s a good player, especially if he can extend out to the 3 point line when actually defended.

    Ntlilikina has a chance to become an elite impact 3-4 position switchable defender than can disrupt opposing offenses and make smart plays on offense. The key will be developing a consistent 3 point shot and ability to finish better at the rim along with more aggression on the boards. He can become a very significant impact role player on a championship team, but that’s on a team that already has 2-3 offensive stars and its 2-3 more years of development away.

  187. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    Part 2

    Dennis Smith Jr is an athletic freak that can use those talents to score and defend at an acceptable level, but he’s a low IQ player, injury prone, and needs to improve his shot, efficiency, and decision making. I see him as more of a wildcard that could go either way, but lean towards him never being a high level player and instead winding up as a PG version of Hardaway Jr.

    Peyton is a good playmaker/rebounder, but needs work on his shot, efficiency, and defense to break out and become a high level PG on a very good team . I’d say DSJr’s upside may be higher, but Peyton is more likely to become a solid well rounded player.

    Robinson has a chance to come an elite rim protector and high efficiency low usage scorer that could anchor the middle on a championship team with a few scoring stars. An obvious keeper.

    RJ Barrett has a chance to become a two way star. Sure, he’s a long way away, but with improved shooting range and a little more work on defense, there’s not much of a limit given that he’s
    already a good scorer inside, a terrific passer playmaker for the position, and terrific rebounder for the position. Sky is the limit, it’s just at least 2-3 years away.

    Bobby Portis is an underrated stretch 4 that needs work on defense, but he’s still a useful piece on a good team. I’d still rather have Noah Vonleh (especially at the prices), but I’m willing to take a look at Portis.

  188. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    Part 3

    To sum it up, the pieces I like best long term are Robinson, Barrett, and Ntilikina. I’m OK with Randle in the right lineups. I like Trier off the bench and I’m at least hopeful about Peyton (though admittedly I need to see more on defense). If we still had KP and drafted Mikal Bridges instead of Knox I’d be over the top with pure joy.

  189. mase

    I was going to say something intelligent but god took over( i’m Going to start every response this way).
    Having said that I think Mitch shouldn’t be overlooked as having a huge season coming up. Can he go from high flyer to defensive qb is huge?! Worthy of being a max player in his second season is the second part of the question . It would represent the biggest leap we’ve seen in ny sports in a long time.
    I also view trier as an X factor type. 6th man or more? I saw a video of him , harden and a third dude playing one in one and he was as unguardable as harden. Crazy I know.

    For us as Knick fans having a pg is the biggest need so any of the three showing improvement is magnified.

  190. d-mar

    Back to concerts for a moment, here’s a good one for you. I was 13 years old and in summer camp in Connecticut, and our camp director decided our section should go to Tanglewood, MA to see The Who (Jethro Tull was the opening act, no one had heard of them in 1969) My counselor played us the whole Tommy album on his Victrola before the concert so we’d know what we were listening to, which was kind of cool.

    The Who (with Keith Moon) played the whole Tommy album start to finish, and us 13 year old dorks in our camp t-shirts and shorts were standing on our seats the whole time (probably got a contact high) grooving to the music.

    I still have the program (It’s a Beautiful Day was the 2nd warmup act) A crazy and wonderful experience.

  191. Hubert

    To sum it up, the pieces I like best long term are Robinson, Barrett, and Ntilikina. I’m OK with Randle in the right lineups. I like Trier off the bench and I’m at least hopeful about Peyton (though admittedly I need to see more on defense). If we still had KP and drafted Mikal Bridges instead of Knox I’d be over the top with pure joy.

    I feel like you and I share a preferred player profile. I love what a 5-man unit of Frank-Barrett-Bridges-Porzingis-Robinson would bring to the defensive side of the ball.

    We diverge on a couple things, though. Unless RJ is the second coming of Dwyane Wade, that lineup would be stagnant as hell on offense due to Frank’s ineptitude. The other, of course, is KP on a max, but we don’t need to relitigate that.

  192. Early Bird

    I generally disbelieve any claim that player x fixed his shot (or really any other aspect of their game). Still, I don’t think DSJr is a bad choice. I just think he’s a few years off from really putting it all together. He’s 21 which is still young for a pg.

    I think Payton has a high chance of improving, but I don’t think it’ll be a leap. He’ll have more of a modest all around improvement.

    I’m excluding Mitch, because Mitch is a God and that’s unfair to everyone else.

    I can also see Portis making a true leap on offense. Problem with Portis is his defense and his contract.

    Knox will suck. His cumulative advanced stats may skyrocket due to 2 factors: playing less and shooting less. If he never steps on the court, he should win the most improved player award.

  193. TheClashFan

    I have no idea who will make a nice step forward. Maybe no one?

    However, probably at least one guy will. I just hope the Knicks give all the young guys decent court time so that we can see.

  194. Early Bird

    RJ says he wants to posterize Porzingis.

    I’m really starting to love this dude. I really hope I’m wrong about him.

  195. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    My counselor played us the whole Tommy album on his Victrola before the concert

    Was this 1927 or something?

  196. Hubert

    Steph and Draymond stopped short of pledging, but they both sound like they’re keen to rep USA at the 2020 olympics.

  197. geo

    @ 217, way cool story d-mar…

    Knox will suck…If he never steps on the court, he should win the most improved player award.

    oh man, that’s just mean, and seriously funny/sadly true…

  198. d-mar

    Was this 1927 or something?

    Haha, no 1969. Cassettes hadn’t been invented yet, and since we were in a tent the only option was a portable record player.

    (And no, we weren’t all wearing Davy Crockett hats (-: )

  199. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    I just saw some Ron Baker highlights. He looks good. We need to bring him back! :-) Video can be found here.

    NYKTerryandTray
    @Nykterryandtray
    Ron Baker, hesitation, dribble move, step back three point ala James Harden…

  200. JK47

    We should run out a Frank/Ron backcourt just to see if we could break the record for fewest points in an NBA game

  201. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    Knox will suck…If he never steps on the court, he should win the most improved player award.

    That was certainly true last year.

    If Knox never played last year we probably would have won 25+ games.

  202. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    We should run out a Frank/Ron backcourt just to see if we could break the record for fewest points in an NBA game

    Yeah, but with the right players on the court with them we might win 65-63 instead of losing 130 -124. :-)

  203. Early Bird

    @Strat & Hubert,

    I agree a KP-Mitch frontcourt would be devastating defensively. Adding Bridges in would also be fantastic.

    However, I think that lineup is the exact kind of lineup you don’t want Frank in. An offensive star would add more value and you’d still have an incredible D. Think the Rose/Noah bulls (I know those two are a sore subject, but still).

    Frank is optimized on a contender looking for a lockdown wing defender. If I’m only a few pieces away, I’d overpay Frank to lockdown Harden and other wings/pgs a few minutes a game. I think that’s his destiny following this contract.

  204. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    Cassettes hadn’t been invented yet, and since we were in a tent the only option was a portable record player.

    The acceleration of technological advances is really pretty astonishing over the last 50 years.

  205. swiftandabundant

    I love Mitch but I hope we can all tamper our expectations for him to take some monumental leap next year. He overproduced for a rookie. If he can do what he did in the second half of last year playing starter’s minutes that will be a step forward but I worry some people are expecting him to come in with a bunch of Hakeem post moves and some deadly 3 point shot. So I think he actually has the chance to disappoint people this year but only because we are all giddy with the potential right now. But again, if he does what he did last year but with starters’ minutes, that’s huge.

  206. swiftandabundant

    My guess is Knox will be the one to take the biggest step forward and pleasantly surprise people. I think he’ll be stronger, rebound better and be more efficient in less minutes (maybe off the bench). I don’t think he’s an idiot or beyond hope. I actually think he has a lot of potential just came into the league beyond raw and was thrust into a huge role last year on a shitty team. He will be a lot better and people won’t think he sucks by the end of this year.

  207. Hubert

    I agree a KP-Mitch frontcourt would be devastating defensively. Adding Bridges in would also be fantastic.

    However, I think that lineup is the exact kind of lineup you don’t want Frank in. An offensive star would add more value and you’d still have an incredible D. Think the Rose/Noah bulls (I know those two are a sore subject, but still).

    This is actually what I said, too. I’d love it on D, but you can’t trot that lineup out and expect it to score. Bridges is just a shooter and Porzingis is a black hole. It would be a terrible offensive lineup that would require herculean effort from Barrett to make plays.

    The best Knicks’ lineup that could most closely imitate France and offer Frank a chance of success is Smith-Frank-Barrett-Randle-Robinson. You’d have three guys who can initiate the offense, like France did. And on D you can put Smith on the off guard and let Frank defend the 1.

  208. Early Bird

    @Hubert

    Yeah, sorry. I did a bad job of explaining why I mentioned you 2.

    I was agreeing with you. I was partially agreeing with STRAT also.

  209. DRed

    Most likely to break out is tough. DSJ has been pretty bad his whole brief career, so a breakout still doesn’t mean that he’s going to be good. Obviously that’s even more true for Knox and Frank, who have been two of the worst players in the league in their brief careers and Trier, who was a nice story on an awful team but who lowkey sucked. That leaves Payton-he’s getting a bit old for a break out, but his FT% has trended up for his career and his finishing at the rim seemed a bit flukey bad last season, so maybe he finally learns how to hit 3’s, finishes more in line with his career norms and you have yourself a good point guard.

    I forgot about Bobby Portis. He has a skillset that could be useful on offense if he would take more 3’s. At his price it would probably still be tricky to move him for something useful but teams love 3 point shooting so who knows

  210. dtrickey

    I think Knox could be candidate for a leap, but only on the basis the bar is pretty low for him after his rookie season. If we are talking about a leap for a guy like DSJ or Payton, in my mind that is 6th man of the year candidate/fringe All-Star. What is a leap for Knox? Becoming a decent rotation player without being a total net negative?

    Questionable signings aside, I think this will be an intriguing season, simply to see who out of the under 25 crowd will step up. Team has a bit of the same vibe as the 10-11 roster pre-Melo trade.

  211. Early Bird

    Unfortunately, the most likely scenario is that no one makes a great improvement, only a few small ones, while a few players regress.

    I actually think I have Randle as the most likely to make a minor regression and most likely to take a leap forward. His 3pt shooting is a big question mark due to the inherent variation.

    Portis had a down year from a TS% & WS standpoint last year (excluding his rookie year which may not be fair), despite hitting a higher percentage of 3s. So he may regress upwards, add any actual improvement and he could seem like he made the jump.

  212. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    I actually think I have Randle as the most likely to make a minor regression and most likely to take a leap forward.

    That’s a bold statement.

  213. Early Bird

    That’s a bold statement.

    It means Randle is less likely to play at the same level, make a minor improvement, or make a significant regression.

    For instance, I think Payton is the most likely to make a minor improvement, but less likely to suddenly become a star.

    I think Trier is the most likely to make a large regression.

    There’s a continuous scale to evaluate a player, not a binary improve/decline choice. You can improve by .001 WS (or other number) or by .150 WS. One is a small improvement, one is large. I’d describe the first as no improvement at all, .150 WS improvement is a leap, .010 WS improvement is minor.

  214. Z-man

    My guess is that a pretty good percentage of successful NBA players would have been terrible had they played 2100+ minutes and put up 900+ FGA on an NBA team at age 19.

  215. Donnie Walsh

    Who on the knicks is going to regress this season? That is a much more knickerbloggeresque question, I love it!

    I’m gonna go with Frank. Cause his “sophomore slump” had “junior crisis” written all over it.

  216. Hubert

    Here are my expectations.

    Mitch: minor improvement

    Knox: minor improvement

    Frank: won’t earn minutes

    Trier: will be the same

    Barrett: will impress, be up & down

    Dotson: will be forgotten

    Smith: biggest standard deviation of
    outcomes, I have no idea what to expect.

    Payton: will be good

    Randle: will be very good

    The vets will all be themselves. Team probably wins 28-30 games.

  217. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    @242 – I am SELFISHLY happy that the Yankees are blowing home field against the Astros. I have tickets for home game 3 of the ALDS and that is scheduled for Saturday Oct 19. I stupidly signed up for another event with lots of people involved for that day and would need to get rid of the Yankee ticket. It’s them or the wife. I don’t want to have to choose. But deep down, as a Yankee fan, I’m with you.

  218. thenamestsam

    I feel like so much of the “breakout” potential depends on Fiz, and man I am just not sure what to expect from him. In theory I think this should be a much more structured team this year with all the vets, and in a team with more clearly defined roles I’d be looking at Frank and especially Knox as potential breakout candidates, both of whom I think really suffered (albeit in completely opposite ways) from Fiz’s “everybody do whatever makes you happy” offense last year. However, I do not have as much confidence as I wish I did that we weren’t still going to be running that same offense this year. If Fiz is just a bad coach (and I have my suspicions) then who knows what happens this year. At that point all bets are off.

  219. Hubert

    I am SELFISHLY happy that the Yankees are blowing home field against the Astros… But deep down, as a Yankee fan, I’m with you.

    It’s little shit like this that annoys me so much.

    When they feebly lose another game 7 in Houston, maybe they’ll realize you can’t get sloppy at the finish line.

  220. Hubert

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    I am SELFISHLY happy that the Yankees are blowing home field against the Astros… But deep down, as a Yankee fan, I’m with you.

    It’s little shit like this that annoys me so much.

    When they feebly lose another game 7 in Houston, maybe they’ll realize you can’t get sloppy at the finish line.

    Hmm… can’t imagine what got this stuck in moderation. Surely not the use of a 4 letter word that rhymes with hit.

    EDIT: nope, a copy and paste works. I must have edited out the bad word.

  221. swiftandabundant

    The promotion of Mike Miller is promising though. Either he can be the offensive coach and Fiz can play the Woodson role of being the cheerleader who makes everyone happy and motivated OR Fiz actually sucks and gets fired and Miller takes over.

  222. thenamestsam

    The promotion of Mike Miller is promising though. Either he can be the offensive coach and Fiz can play the Woodson role of being the cheerleader who makes everyone happy and motivated OR Fiz actually sucks and gets fired and Miller takes over.

    I would be pretty stunned if Fiz didn’t make it through the year, even if the season is ugly. It’s only year 2, the team has gone through a ton of turnover, and I think (although we will know better once training camp starts and we start hearing more public statements) the organization still sees itself as in transition. I don’t think there’s going to be a lot of pressure to make the playoffs this year or anything like that, and Fiz definitely seems like Perry and Mills’ guy. I think he can probably suck as much as he wants and still keep his job this year.

  223. alsep73

    Our management has always been starstruck when it comes to coaching hires, though Woodson (who was mostly a success in Atlanta but not a name) got the job as an interim coach and stuck to it. I could see Miller as an interim coach, but more likely Keith Smart would get the job temporarily if Fiz is axed.

  224. swiftandabundant

    Either way, Miller getting promoted is a positive sign for this franchise. Maybe they’re learning a bit from other teams where they’ve had success bringing up successful G-League coaches.

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