As noted, the Knicks had put together a compelling list of head coaching candidates, where only Thibs and Mike Woodson were typical retread candidates. Their list of candidates was really intriguing and taken by many, including me, as a good sign that Leon Rose might actually know what he’s doing.
So the Knicks have realized that that list wasn’t Knicksy enough and have now added Jason Kidd and Mike Brown to the list.
What’s funny is that if you’ve foolishly latched on to some silly “Thibs must be a good coach! Just look at his career winning percentage!” argument, then you’d certainly have to say that Mike Brown is even more impressive, as he has an even higher career winning percentage than Thibs (and he took a second team to the playoffs and won a playoff series, which is more than Thibs has done). And they both have Coach of the Year awards. But luckily, most of us get how stupid “Just look at his winning percentage!” sounds, or else we’d be pushing for Tyronn Lue, who also has a higher winning percentage than Thibs and is the only one of the three coaches (Thibs, Brown and Lue) to have won a title as a coach.
The rumor with Kidd is that the Knicks think that he would help them with Giannis. That sure sounds like one of the dumbest, Knicksy thing, huh?
I’m going to assume/hope that these two new additions to the now ten-person interview list don’t mean much, but hey, ya never know.
132 replies on “Knicks Realize They Are Interviewing Too Many Good Head Coaching Candidates, Add Jason Kidd and Mike Brown to the Mix”
That headline. Bravo.
Give me Ime Udoka or Kenny Atkinson. I don’t want to think about Mike Brown or Jason Kidd unless they get second and 3rd interviews.
In the case of Kidd, I just don’t understand how you hire him. The places that let him go hired guys who were clearly better coaches than him. All they really did in Milwaukee was replace Kidd with Budz and now they have the best regular season record two years running (after being bounced in the first round a couple times under Kidd).
So yeah, Ime Udoka or Kenny Atkinson, and then make some impressive staff hires. Sign guys like Kris Dunn, Harry Giles, Nerlens Noel, Davis Bertans, and Joe Harris, and then give RJ, Mitch, and whoever we pick in the draft this year a fair chance.
I’d be fine with Hammon, too, but yeah, I have Atkinson and Udoka ahead of her, for sure. I’d like them to hire, in order, Atkinson/Udoka/Hammon.
Udoka’s the lead assistant in Philly, right? So I wonder if he wouldn’t just prefer to see if Brown gets fired.
I want no piece of Kidd, but just noting that he left Brooklyn on his own. Milwaukee fired him, but he ditched Brooklyn because they wouldn’t give him GM powers. I mean, him trying to get GM powers and not getting them probably was going to lead to him leaving Brooklyn no matter what, but you know what I mean. One of the funniest things about that situation was that Kidd began to negotiate with Milwaukee once the Nets turned down his coup attempt and that was controversial since Larry Drew was already under contract as the Bucks coach. However, Larry Drew had scumbagged Mike Woodson years earlier when he was Woody’s lead assistant in Atlanta, so I thought it was just karmic justice.
If Brett Brown gets fired the 76ers instantly become the best job available and they’d likely field a more accomplished candidate like Mike D’Antoni or Tom Thibodeau.
I wonder, then, if Atkingson gets the job, whether Udoka would take a lead assistant gig, if he worries that Brown will get fired and that he wouldn’t get the job.
I remember that but he was also under contract and they weren’t exactly heartbroken to trade him for two 2RPs.
Atkinson and Udoka would be the dream for me, but I’d easily settle for Ime Udoka with Mike Miller as the lead assistant.
Oh sure, getting two picks for a guy who tried a failed coup is a good deal. Just noting that he wasn’t really fired by Brooklyn. And they replaced him with a shittier coach in Lionel Hollins (who isn’t a bad coach, per se, but nor is he particularly good).
That’s what I forgot! Lionel Hollins was so forgettable a coach I thought they went straight to Kenny Atkinson.
Point taken, though I’d argue Lionel Hollins is a better coach than Kidd.
Jason Kidd’s in the Mark Jackson tier of coaches no team should want. I don’t understand the thought process of looking at a team coached by Kidd/Jackson that’s pretty mediocre and can’t get out of the 1st round, the team replaces the coach, makes virtually no roster moves, and the team immediately becomes one of the best in the league and a title contender. Why would you want a coach that was clearly holding the team back? What the hell is the actual thought process?
He is a HOF point guard.
I think that’s it
I’d be fine with Hammon, too, but yeah, I have Atkinson and Udoka ahead of her.
Other than the PC reasons that got an extra 5,000 people dead in NY why do you believe that unproven head coaches are better than a coach who took a 41-41 team, added Carlos Boozer and became 62-20 in Thib’s first season not with great offensive play but with great defensive play. They were 50-19, 45-37 and 48-34 with his best player playing 49 of 246 games. And then 52-30 with a one legged Derrick Rose etc, etc….. He an excellent proven coach who tutored under Van Gundy and Doc Rivers with a long career of sustained success.
I have no Ideal if Idoka or Hammond can coach and neither does anyone else. It is a known fact Thib can get NBA teams to play at a very high level for sustained periods.
I don’t get the thought process.
I don’t think anyone argues Thibodeau wasn’t a good, even great, coach in Chicago. The playing time issue still loomed large but it’s impossible to argue with the results.
The problem people have is the game changed in profound ways and his time in Minnesota indicates he basically refused to make the necessary adjustments. There were tons of straight up indefensible trends on those Minnesota teams that actually were in the purview of the coach to some extent.
We could certainly do a lot worse. He’s not Mark Jackson. It would just be a frustrating hire because we could also do a lot better with significantly less fanfare.
Thibs gets a lot of credit and probably deserves it for his work in Chicago but it’s not like he was playing chess with pawns. He had some real talent to work with. Which strikes me is the the kind of situation he should try to find again.
Is Thibs a rigid “system” coach like D’Antoni or is he capable of adapting after being disgraced like he was in Minny? That’s the question. D’Antoni had the advantage of running a system that was ahead of the trend, which has since caught up. His response? Become even more extreme. Is it working? Well, he seems to be on his way out, so you be the judge.
For Thibs not to adapt, he’d have to be both rigid and stupid, and Rose would also have to be terrible at screening coaches if he doesn’t have coaching a modern system as a prerequisite.
i will say that after watching the video that Jowles posted, it is hard not to appreciate Budz. That defensive system is absolute brilliance. And if Thibs can do that, and let go of the reins on O (i.e hire and empower a brilliant offensive assistant coach) then I might be okay with him.
I also think it’s fair to say that Wiggins and Towns were a big part of Thibs’s “failure” in Minny. They haven’t done anything since he left, and good luck to GSW in getting him to play D…should be interesting to see how Draymond feels about him when the games start to count.
Pawns are the soul of chess, find a new slant
Shows how little I know about chess. More into games of limited chance.
The Knicks hiring the guy who was holding back Giannis’ career in an effort to appeal to him would be some truly big brained executive work. I absolutely adore the idea of our big free agent pitch to him being that we’re offering the chance for him to give up on his MVP awards and 65+ win seasons and go back to the time in his career when he was on mediocre .500 teams with a dipshit coach. It would probably be the most truthful free agent pitch in NBA history!
I’d consider hiring Kidd to mentor a young PG, say LaMelo Ball. But even then I’d hesitate a long time.
At this point I suspect Rose is simply cultivating goodwill throughout the league for his inevitable departure and return to CAA.
In addition to being a bad coach Jason Kidd is also a wife beating drunk
Can we all agree to skip the cockamamie justifications if we hire Jason fucking Kidd?
On the highway to getting a new coach, the Knicks now appear to have passed by the Due Diligence exit and are now at the Overkill exit, with Absurd Farce just down the road. Time to pull off the highway and pick a restaurant, Mr. Rose.
I can squint and see upside in almost anything. But even I would pass on trying to justify Kidd.
“Is Thibs a rigid “system” coach like D’Antoni or is he capable of adapting after being disgraced like he was in Minny?”
I’m not sure disgraced is the right modifier.
He took a team that was 29 – 53 and took it to 31-51 and 47-35 the next two seasons. You can say that wasn’t Thibs doing but Jimmy Butler’s but that’s the record. Butler took one season to figure out that Wiggins and Towns were overrated no defense playing self absorbed players who weren’t championship material and shot his way out of Dodge city.
You want to blame thibs for that…. fine but I don’t get the “modern offense’ RIP. He took MN from 12 to 4 in offensive rating his first 2 seasons.
And Mn was 2 games under .500 when he was fired after 40 games and 8 games under .500 the last 42. MN is 19-45 this season
To get a team to win 47 games in the West 2 years ago with the 27th ranked defense in the league must be a pretty good coach to me. I don’t get the he’s a dinosaur argument.
For the record…. his win % is better than JVG who only coached Ewing Yao and Mc Grady his entire career.
I really don’t get the hateraid and the desire to try totally untried options when a far, far better than average on is right under you nose.
Without question all great coaches were once “first time” head coaches, but I’ll argue there are many more Derrick Fischers. Rambises and Hornachecks than Pat Rileys. Phil Jacksons and POPs
Also when Thibs took over Chicago Taj Ginson had 1 year, Rose 2 years and Noah 3 years of NBA experience. Butler was a rookie the next year so the notion he can’t teach young players to play better is nonsense IF the players are amenable.
Thibs first season the went from 41 wins to 62 wins and from 12th to 1st in defense with the addition of that know defensive stopper center/pf Carlos Boozer.
The man can flat out coach.
In addition to being a bad coach Jason Kidd is also a wife beating drunk
[/THREAD]
So Thibs is a good coach who develops young talent unless that young talent is Karl Anthony Towns or Andrew Wiggins.
Bob, would you say our roster more like Thibs’ Bulls or like Thibs’ Wolves?
Well at least we can all agree that Jason Kidd is a terrible fucking idea
Welcome to the Knicks, Jason Kidd
#DolansRazor
Yup. I’d take Tyronne Lue 10 times out of 10 over Jason Kidd. The only worse candidate than Kidd is maybe Derek Fisher.
“Bob, would you say our roster more like Thibs’ Bulls or like Thibs’ Wolves?”
I think Frank, MR and RJ are completely open to being coached. Knox I have doubts. They are the Knicks top young players and 3 of the four have been zero problem in that way unlike , say, KP.
Knox…. I’m not sure if he just doesn’t get it, is incapable or resistant to anything other than shooting the ball. He seems more incapable to me due to lack of foot speed. But the other 3 seem perfectly amenable and open to coaching.
Is that a fair question to your query?
https://theathletic.com/1885457/2020/06/22/how-wed-run-the-knicks-our-team-of-analysts-fully-evaluate-new-york/?source=dailyemail
Good, realistic discussion about all aspects of our current situation.
Warning: do not read if any and all criticism of Frank Ntilikina sends you into a tizzy.
Wanted to read this but just can’t pay for another subscription. Please share the bullet points…
“The only worse candidate than Kidd is maybe Derek Fisher.
Derek Fischer would probably be ok if all the players wives and GFs were “Lying dog faced pony soldiers” TM and not hotties…..
I honestly don’t get the Thibs hate either. Sure I’d rather have Atkinson (shoot more 3s and point guard guru) or Udoka if only for the upside, but it’s justifiable to say that Thibs is a better coach right now.
He’s absolutely a very good defensive coach, all numbers agree. But to take that Minnesota team – only 3 players who shoot above league average 36.2% from 3: Teague, Bjelica, Towns- and four of your top five in FGA being Wiggins, Butler, Teague, and Jamal freaking Crawford, all not exactly modern or efficient types, and drag that to 4th in offense? Not bad. I mean, that’s not a modern roster, at, all. I mean, only two players had fg% above .500! Towns and freaking Taj Gibson! He wasn’t working with greatness here.
I think coaches don’t matter as much as players, and he took those players further than otherwise.
There’s something to be said for having a young team and a tough older coach. Again, a few people I’d rather have, but it’s tough for me to understand the hate.
Also, as down as I am on Knox, why the hell hasn’t he gotten more minutes at PF?! I get that he’s still light, but this seems like a no brainer. If he has any future, it’s as a stretch 4. The same goes for RJ not playing enough SF. I know the “East is Big, Man,” etc., but what’s wrong with coaches?
Pretty much yes…. KAT was 487/502 qualified players in D rtg and Wiggins was 424/502 (tied with DSJr!) so they both express epic suckitude defensively and neither of them have any physical limitation to cause that other than not giving a fuck about it. Hence, they are losing players even though KAT is a virtual deity on the other side of the ball.
FREE AGENT SIGNINGS, 2019, NY BIGKNICKERBOCKERS:
Glutius Randle , 32.5 mpg
Marcass Morris 32.3 mpg
Bobby Portass 21.1 mpg
Taj Bigson 16.5 mpg
Lil Kevin Knox 17.9 mpg
Nice one, Bandit.
Seriously, I’d be curious if anyone can come up with a worse free agent haul in terms of fit. Not dollars and cents, lots of hideous decisions exist out there related to cost. But just brain-fart bad fit. I was at a loss of words when it happened, and seeing it written again just leaves me aghast. But I’m excited to think that at least it might be the worst in NBA history. Let’s go Knicks!
I wouldn’t hire Kidd, but he’s in no way in the same category as Mark Jackson. Jackson is a clueless liar. Kidd was ahead of the curve on positionless basketball with the Nets. He was one of the first to embrace the idea of having multiple playmakers and lots of switchable, long players. He was also the Bucks’ coach as Giannis went from NBA nobody to superstar. It’s hard not to at least give him some credit there especially given how supportive Kidd was of Giannis in his early years when he was so raw.
Kidd seems stubborn and narcissistic and maybe isn’t capable of getting out of his head and accepting the continuing evolution of the league like he was when he was a player, but he at least has some positives on his resumé.
One other thing that doesn’t get talked about enough is that it sure seems like in retrospect that Kidd was doing a lot of the coaching of that 12/13 Knicks team.
And the only one who was moderately successful was a Shmey Drey (M Morris)
I don’t think the game has changed as much as people think.
Yes, teams shoot a lot more 3 pointers. but that’s mostly because teams realized how terrible long 2s were relative to even tougher 3s. So players worked on 3s (especially corner 3s) and got much better at them over time. Teams always played fast, they are still trying to get to the basket and draw fouls, and will still take high quality open mid range shots with a chance for a foul or an OREB put back.
It was just a few years ago everyone still thought you couldn’t win shooting a lot of 3s until the Warriors did it, but in many way they are a basketball aberration. They had 2 and then 3 of the greatest 3 point shooters of all time on the same team. No one else can presume to be able to copy a model that requires Curry, Durant, and Thompson. Of course you want great shooters. But what generally wins is good defense and team play on offense that leads to high quality shots. The Warriors did both of those at a high level also.
Does anyone in think if Thibodeau was coaching the Warriors he wouldn’t have had them shooting a lot of 3s?
Does anyone think Steve Kerr would have these Knicks shooting as many 3s as the Warriors did?
Coaches may have offensive and defensive preferences (some stronger than others), but good coaching means taking the players you have and maximizing their skills. The idea may be to match players to the coach’s style and vice versa, but arguing that the game has bypassed Thibodeau is just plain silly. He’s not an idiot. Give him good 3 point shooters and they’ll shoot a lot of 3s.
DRtg rank by coaching year
Bulls
1st
2nd
6th
2nd
11th
Wolves
27th
27th
24th
I see no indication that he’s any better than the players that actually play the game.
Are we talking about offense, right now? Because Towns is an all-time great scoring big already. Dude has played 12,307 minutes and has contributed 885 points to his team relative to league average shooting.
Look at the adjusted shooting numbers for the 2017-18 Wolves.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2018.html#adj-shooting::25
Towns added 242.7 points and his team still only sat at 195.1 TOTAL. And we want to call that a Thibs thing? Huh?
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200205100BOS.html
lmao what
>Wolves
27th
27th
24th<
The knock against Towns and Wiggins is that they refuse to play hard on defense every night. Thibodeau was insisting on hard work and they didn't want to do it. That's why Butler asked out and partially why Thibodeau was fired. I guess you can blame him for not being able to motivate a couple of young players to play defense on every possession, but I'm going to guess it was the players or Butler would not have bailed out and continued to defend the coach.
>lmao what<
I guess the Showtime Lakers and that era of fast basketball was before your time. Teams adjust to the rules. The only fairly consistent thing has been that the games tends to slow down from its usual pace in the payoffs (or at least teams try to slow it down).
I didn’t see it live, but I’m well aware of those incredibly high-scoring games. Was it Denver or Cleveland in the late 80s that routinely scored 120 a night?
Point is, you’re ignoring a 15-year stretch where NBA basketball transformed into a grinding slugfest, and ignoring it to make an argument, which didn’t land. Sorry.
“DRtg rank by coaching year
Bulls
1st
2nd
6th
2nd
11th”
I believe you neglected to mention the T-wolves were 12th in Drtg the season before Thibs came and made them #1 when they added that defensive stopper Carlos Boozer. The also improved from 41-41 to 60-22 or some other minimal improvement like that and then sustained the defensive excellence for 4 seasons.
You are what your record says you are……
Saying the league hasn’t changed that much is just factually incorrect. And this is not a story about one team playing differently; the whole league has dramatically altered their style of play. In 2010-2011 when Thibs was CotY the median team had a pace of 91.8 and took 22% of their shots from 3. This year those numbers were 99.8 and 38%. Maybe Thibs is capable of adapting to that but it’s a huge factor and the evidence from his time in Minnesota doesn’t look encouraging to me.
Yep
Sidenote, I/we spent years here arguing that long range 2s were stupid with Ruru and others. It’s funny how it suddenly became very obvious to everyone, which is just how things go sometimes.
You mean the Bulls? I see 12th in DRtg the year before.
Here are some of the changes in MP year over year (I’m estimating on some because I don’t feel like doing arithmetic for polemicists). Asterisks next to players who did not return in 2010-11:
Rose +130ish
**Hinrich -2481
Deng +500
Boozer +1882
Brewer +1781
**Miller -1950
Gibson -500ish
Noah -350ish
James Johnson -600ish
**Salmons -1695
**Tyrus Thomas -678
**Ronald Murray -680
**Jannero Pargo -829
**Warrick -533
Everyone else is negligible. So let’s do the math, Bob. That’s a full 44% of minutes given to players who did not play a single minute for the Bulls the following year.
But yeah, lol, roflmao, Carlos Boozer DPOY, lol, good one, nice argument.
Right, so, as noted, Thibs is a shitty defensive coach because the Wolves were among the worst defenses in the league for 3 consecutive seasons.
Jowles-
What’s your point, I don’t disagree with anything you said, including that players>coach, and KAT is a phenomenal offensive… and terrible defensive… player. The former I spelled out, the latter is well known. The issue at Minn seems to be a combination of an awful set of players to run a modern offense, terrible 3 point shooters, and terrible defensive players. Do you think any coach can overcome that, and create a team with an efficient offense and capable defense?
Did the team do better overall with him? Sure. Could I just chalk it up to KAT becoming great, and acquiring Butler? Sure. Also, he was GM, so the roster is mostly his fault right? Yes. But can I say that he’s a below average coach? No.
I don’t think he’s right for this team, but I don’t think he’s a bad choice. Atkinson for example has plenty to complain about- didn’t he basically just tell players to shoot more 3s?
Btw my top pick for coach- Joerger: good defensive mind, X’s & O’s, development and young player friendly, and modern. Also, a history of being a dick to bad front offices is good with me
Rose, Noah, Taj and Deng combined played ~ 9600 minutes combined both seasons
9/10 Bulls (w/o Thibs) VS 10/11 bulls (w/Thibs)
ROSE ws.48 = .100 ws/48 = .208
VORP = 2.7 VORP = 6.7
OR/DR = 106/109 OR/DR = 113/103
DENG ws/48 = .106 ws/48 = .149
VORP =2.0 VORP = 3.0
OR/DR = 106/106 VORP = 111/102
Noah ws/48 = .154 Ws/48 = .205
VORP = 1.7 VORP = 1.9
OR/DR = 112/101 OR/DR = 117/97
TAJ ws/48 = .104 ws/48 = .143
VORP = 0.0 VORP = 0.5
OR/DR = 104/103 OR/DR = 106/98
Every one of their core young players got massively better on BOTH sides of the ball in Thibs first year and they improved 20…
Right, and so those 44% of replaced minutes mean nothing. Let’s attribute it to the first-year coach when Derrick Rose improves between age 21 and age 22. Gibson was 25, Noah was 25, Deng was 25 — i.e. the peak age for an NBA player.
Uh huh. Ridiculous, a laughably bad argument, per usual.
yeah..Joerger would be a solid choice…I thought he did a good job that last year in Sacto…
Eye Nostalgia
During the last decade of NBA watching only 2 teams Impressed me defensively.
The one was Lebron’s Miami we faced on the playoffs.
The other was Thibs’ Bulls.
The intensity of their D at times was off the charts.
An eye delight for D connoisseurs.
When I look at Joerger and Atkinson, Joerger had a similar record with the Kings that Atkinson did with Brooklyn. Two years of crummy results then a decent year. Then fired (or left, technically, for Atkinson). There combined first two seasons, 20, 28, 32 and 27 wins. I think most competent coaches could get that record with the Knicks (I’m not including Kidd). If that’s what you want, just pick Miller. He’ll give you at least that, assume the Knicks don’t tear themselves down again, and he might be better.
Right, and so those 44% of replaced minutes mean nothing. Let’s attribute it to the first-year coach when Derrick Rose improves between age 21 and age 22. Gibson was 25, Noah was 25, Deng was 25 — i.e. the peak age for an NBA player.
Yeah rose improved from .78 to .100 his first 2 season and then he exploded to .208 in ws/48 for Thibs…. just a normal progression…. right! Went from “league average” to MVP but that was expected progression by Jowels!!!!!!!!!
And the added roll players Brewer 25, Korver 29, Bogans 30 Kurt Thomas 38 had some of the best seasons of their career all well above their career metrics…. but that was all dumb luck as they won 62 games…
Virtually every player on that roster well outperformed their career averages whether they were 23 of 38. Only Boozer had an average first season and then in his second with Thibs he had his career best.
But let’s get another untried coach because thibs was just “lucky”!
Nuff said….. nighty night……
what ya know, i done learned a new word today…might take me years to fit it in to a sentence smoothly, but i’ll get there…
po·lem·i·cist
/p??lem?s?st/
noun
plural noun: polemicists
a person who engages in controversial debate.
“a brilliant polemicist with an independent critical mind”
jeez bob, what time did you eat dinner at – 4:30pm…
that would be interesting…
hard to adequately evaluate a coach just on their record after just a couple of seasons, roster and organization play a huge role in their success…
i had little faith in the fischer hiring…he had no experience at all…i thought horny would at least be okay…not really okay at all…i was sure fiz would get the job done…turns out he’s a charming guy that sounds good on camera…
the difference between miller and fiz was so apparent, i’m pretty sure miller is at least an okay coach…same with atkinson, thibs, and joerger…it would be great to hire the next great coach, but, at this point it’ll be okay to just have someone that knows when to call timeouts and put guys in roles where they can succeed…
From wiki
The pre-Socratic philosopher Heraclitus described Polemos as “both the king and father of all”, with the capacity to bring all into existence and to annihilate.
For Heraclitus, Polemos “reveals the gods on the one hand and humans on the other, makes slaves on the one hand, the free on the other”.
The fragment leaves it unclear as to whether Heraclitus thought of Polemos as an abstraction, a god, or a generalization of war, and this ambiguity is perhaps intentional.
Heidegger interpreted the polemos of Heraclitus as the principle of differentiation or “setting apart”.
“jeez bob, what time did you eat dinner at – 4:30pm…
I’ll be up most of the night…. after I BBQ a couple of nice Delmonicos in a few. I made my point sufficiently, listened to criticism and rebutted such….. Who ever the Knicks hire , I’ll root for him/her. Nothing to get terribly exorcised about.
Didn’t a guy named George Santayana say something, something about history????
I am more with bob on the Thibs argument. He’s a good coach, even very good. And when two of your starting players are terrible defenders, it’s hard to be a good defensive team.
The numbers don’t lie. His record is not that a modern offensive coach. And he runs players into the ground. So I’d pass, but he’s probably the most accomplished coach on the list based on what he did with what he had.
i fucked up some rib eyes the other day…any steak grilling suggestions…it shouldn’t be that hard right, i did something wrong…i forgot to sear them first…i actually probably did some things wrong…
I suspect people will have steak tips….
I can’t figure out how you cooked these. You shouldn’t have to sear steak then grill it. Grilling a ribeye should sear it at the same time. Was your grill not hot enough?
It’s not a huge deal, but I’m pulling for Atkinson. KI doesn’t seem to like him, so that strikes me as in KA’s favor. Play the kids. Bombs away!
i’m too embarrassed now to say vincoug…
i’m just using salt, pepper, a little olive oil (i don’t know why)…i’m cooking them on low heat though (i use charcoal) with the top of the grill closed for just too long a period of time…i think i need to keep the top open, hit em with high heat to seal the outside, then put them to the side to slowly cook the inside part some more…
Once you close the cover you’re kind of baking them rather than grilling them and the insides will cook fast and before the outside gets brown.
Olive oil and keeping the grill closed are fine. You absolutely don’t want to cook on low heat, that’s for large cuts of meat with a lot of connective tissue that needs to break down like brisket and butt; steaks should be grilled on med-high to high heat. Steaks should be room temp when going on the grill. For rare to med-rare cook ~4 minutes/side. Let rest for a few minutes after you take it off the grill.
To make it even better you can dry-age/dry-brine your steaks in the fridge. Heavily salt your steaks on both sides. Put on a baking sheet and baking rack (or something similar) and put in the fridge uncovered. I’ve done this up to 2 days ahead of time for steaks and other cuts of meat. Really brings the flavor to another level.
Sous vide is your friend.
You can get a sous vide device for like $100 now. It’s impossible to fuck up a steak if you cook it sous vide.
I can’t get behind sous vide. I want to reduce the amount of plastic I use so using a device that requires single use plastic every time is a no go.
sometimes i think you guys are just making words up 🙂
my moms dad, popo used to use a pressure cooker…that thing looked and sounded like it was ready to explode…
this makes sense:
this is what i’ll do…
i forgot to do the salt thing the night before too…
I salt it, let it sit, heat a skillet till it’s piping, and then stick it on, three minutes a side. Works well enough for me.
Don’t they have reusable sous vide bags?
Msaai came out #1 on Ringer list of top execs. Was surprised Leon Rose didn’t make it. Oh wait….
I just add salt and pepper to a thick cut, no oil, preheat the grill to high, add room temp steak, and flip ONCE after four minutes and leave another four. A digital fast read thermometer is your friend to get it your preferred doneness. Now.. my favorite steak is on a cast iron skillet… and it is damn good.
Cast iron skillet is def the best way to go. Room temp when it goes on the heat is the biggest thing. It is illegal to do that in NYC restaurants so you can cook a better steak at home than you can get at a steakhouse, provided you can pony up for the high end meat.
I salted a massive tomahawk ribeye 2 days ago and left it in the fridge, unwrapped, for two days, drying it out so it would sear better. Heavy tri-ply pan with olive oil, pepper on the steak. Sear both sides on medium-high, then the butter/garlic/herbs thing like Gordon Ramsay does. Baste it like that, then into a 425 oven until my Thermapen (a kitchen essential) registered ten degrees under what I wanted it to be. I keep the stovetop sear on the light side so the oven can finish it off. The crust on the tender outer edge (farthest from the bone) was insanely good — Ms. Jowles gave it “best steak you’ve made me” marks, which I was not aiming for.
Cast irons are great, no denying that, but you definitely have to move it around the burner (or rotate if you have induction like me). Better yet, pre-heating in the oven. Iron’s an efficient heatsink but it doesn’t distribute nearly as well as a heavy All-Clad pan with an aluminum core. Nothing beats cast iron for casseroles, bakes, strata or bread pudding.
My induction range boils pasta water in like two minutes, so maybe that helps with using a thinner pan for cooking steak. But nothing can beat a commercial range with a carbon steel pan. If you can handle a high-maintenance relationship bordering on abusive, carbon steel is 100% the best pan you can buy for pan-frying. Woks made of other materials are sham kitchenware.
You definitely need a higher heat, which can be harder with charcoal. Finally got my first gas grill and it’s such a game changer. You can really perfect steaks, chicken, veggies, anything on it, and pretty quickly too.
I’d be fine with Thibs. I like that he seems to want it badly and he seems to be able to somewhat alter his plan based on the roster.
Could he maximize RJ, Mitch and the new lottery pick? Who knows. I’m not totally sold on Atkinson either. Not because of the KI/KD thing, but his players didn’t top out that great. I’m sure he’s fine though.
I’ll wait until Thibs is actually hired to spend any time writing about him, but anybody who thinks that he’s a bad coach and that winning percentage is a useless tool in evaluating coaches is throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Thibs is a lot like D’Antoni I think (in inverse). D’Antoni was good in Phoenix with the right personnel, and he was bad in NY with the wrong personnel, and he was a disaster in Los Angeles for a litany of reasons, and then he was suddenly good again in Houston with the right personnel. I wouldn’t dismiss Thibs outright because of the way it ended in Minnesota. Like D’Antoni, he could suddenly look really good again very soon.
“Thibs is a lot like D’Antoni I think (in inverse). D’Antoni was good in Phoenix with the right personnel, and he was bad in NY with the wrong personnel, and he was a disaster in Los Angeles for a litany of reasons, and then he was suddenly good again in Houston with the right personnel.”
Pringles was a genius and was able to get league average play out of a backcourt of Ray Felton, Toney Douglas and Landry Fields the first half of the pre Me7o year. Think about that for a minute!
His blind spot was not hiring a defensive coach as a lead assistant (Thibs like) and having his brother on the staff. Then Me7o tanked the team the following season because he couldn’t have some Harvard trained smart Chinese kid taking his limelight. Fuck him so many ways…..
As far as I can tell Thibs is a competent NBA coach. He helped teams with Kevin Garnett and Jo Noah play good defense and coached teams miserable on defense with Karl Towns. The Knicks have maybe 2 guys who play good defense.
I have the reusable sous vide bags and they’re great, they’re actually way more convenient than futzing around with a vacuum sealer. They’re $20 per bag but you can use them a million times.
Yeah, Thibs is definitely competent. Better than a lot of the recent Knicks coaches.
“Point is, you’re ignoring a 15-year stretch where NBA basketball transformed into a grinding slugfest, and ignoring it to make an argument, which didn’t land. Sorry.”
I didn’t think I was making a controversial point at all. It was probably worded poorly and misunderstood. When I said “teams have always played fast” I didn’t mean to suggest that teams played fast at every point in the history of the game. I meant that playing fast is nothing new in the development of the game. Teams have done it before and are doing it again.
It’s hard for me to believe we have to debate the merits of Tom Thibodeau as a coach. Aside from his impressive overall record and the turnarounds he engineered, he was also given a coach of the year honor. In fact, he just missed getting it in back to back years and was in serious consideration a 3rd time.
There’s an implication in that award that goes beyond just winning a lot of games with good players. It means the sportswriters think you did an excellent job with the players you had. I’m hardly in the camp that thinks sportswriters (on average) are experts in the sport they cover (lol), but when they are repeatedly talking about you as a COTY candidate, you are doing a lot of things well besides winning games with very good players.
One of the interesting developments of this pandemic for me has been the realization that I don’t need basketball to be entertained and happy. I haven’t been a big baseball or football fan for years. I slowly drifted away from those sports over time. But I remained a basketball junkie. I was into the lottery, draft, summer league, G league, trade deadline, followed every team and every player in the league almost nightly to stay on top who was playing well, who was hurt etc.. Right now I don’t miss it at all. I don’t even care if they come back or not. I am occupying my extra time with other things. It seems as though I need some kind of passionate hobby to occupy my mind and time, but it doesn’t have to be basketball. This may be the beginning of a drift away from basketball and into something new.
I miss basketball tremendously, and crazy as it sounds, knowing that I won’t see the Knicks until like December is really hard to take. Right now we’d be getting primed for Vegas summer league, I even miss that!
Thibs is a fine coach on his merits, just not necessarily the right guy at the right time. But hey, he’s far from a worst-case scenario. I’d prefer rolling the dice on a well-scouted neophyte, but since the FO will probably try to accelerate the development of a win-now team, might as well hire a win-now coach. I mean, does anyone really think that Rose isn’t gonna try to land a big fish in year 1 or 2?
I am missing basketball so god damn much I’m worried it’s giving me a massive blindspot about the objective merits of restarting the season
I don’t want to get hung up talking about Thibs because coaches only matter so much and he ain’t Mark Jackson, but my god some of arguments being made in his favor are just downright lazy.
Coach of the year? Should we be considering George Karl?
Raw winning percentage? Should we be considering Byron Scott?
Evaluating coaching isn’t easy but it’s glaringly obvious you need to start by looking at context. If you want to argue that Thibs got more out of his Chicago and Minnesota teams than the talent on the rosters merited go right ahead, there’s probably some truth to it with regards to Chicago in the earlier years.
I have no clue how anyone could defend the Minnesota tenure though, which is obviously more recent and thus, to me, a lot more relevant since, yes, the game has changed extremely significantly (like holy shit, we actually have people debating that?)!
Yeah, it’s strange how you can be so gung ho about safety and then I just sit there and mainline Premier League highlights.
A professional athlete or more likely a coach may die but I do think the risks to holding events in empty arenas are very very low. That’s how I justify how much I enjoyed seeing Pulisic come off the bench to score the other day anyway.
Y’all wanted a new thread topic? World wide Wes now named Executive VP.
Yep
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29358210/knicks-hiring-caa-william-wesley-advisory-role
Someone tell me how this won’t work out….
The Worldwide Wes thing is interesting as I have no real idea if he has any cachet with the younger guys in the league. It seemed like all the talk of him as a mover and a shaker peaked around the time of The Decision which was a full decade ago now.
Yeah, I also have no sense of what kind of connections Wes still has, and what value he is offering.
Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPtjyqgZAUk
“Now Jimmy D’s got CAA as a partner. Any problems, he goes to CAA. Trouble with the cap? He can go to CAA. Trouble with Adam Silver? He can call CAA. But now the guy’s gotta come up with CAA’s money every week, no matter what! Ticket sales bad? Fuck you, pay me. Oh, you lost 65 games? Place got hit by COVID-19, huh? Fuck you, pay me.”
Wash Post says Jokic tested positive for the virus, is stuck in Serbia for the foreseeable future
.
The pandemic numbers out of the Florida keep getting worse and worse. There’s some legitimate debate about whether targeted testing of certain areas and businesses is producing higher a positive rate and contributing to the numbers, but it’s unlikely that explains it all. The probability that the NBA is going to cancel has to be rising. They picked the wrong state at exactly the wrong time.
Dolan’s a starf*cker. World Wide Wes hugged Anthony Davis once.
You do the math.
“Coach of the year? Should we be considering George Karl?”
If he wasn’t old and hand’t burnt all his bridges, I’d say he’d be an excellent choice.
He got the Nuggets to out perform regularly. At one point Gallinari was his #1 option and they had one of the best teams in the west before he got hurt. Gallo is a good 2nd option now, but he wasn’t even at his best at that stage. He was a 3rd option player. That’s not good coaching. It’s other worldly God like coaching. Karl’s issue was his personality, not his understanding of basketball or getting the most out of playing in Denver with mediocre players. So yes, COTY counts for something. It’s saying that a coach is not just winning games. It’s saying he’s getting way more out of the players than sportswriters that cover sport think any other coach in the league could. It’s saying he was the best coach that year.
(and he played small, fast, and attacked the basket so he wasn’t exactly behind the times)
Hiring World Wide Wes makes me think the Knicks have taken another step backwards from an already terrible management position with Mills/Perry to now. How can any serious basketball player look at this organization and not laugh. It’s not like the team doesn’t have some talent that a good coach like Thibs can work with, but it’s impossible to be optimistic about the future.
Why Florida in the first place? Couldn’t they play on an out-door court in Montana to vest that TV contract?
Heck, it’s all laid out in the post itself. No one is in a rush to hire former Coach of the Year Mike Brown, who has a higher winning percentage than Thibs. And who is also a well-regarded defensive coach.
Or NBA championship-winning coach Tyronn Lue, who also has a higher career winning percentage than Thibs.
Yeah Montana in the summer would’ve been nice for players and their families. Orlando, on the other hand, is going to be a shitshow. Key players will get Covid haphazardly and have to miss playoff games, so any championship won’t be legitimate. It really doesn’t feel like this is going to work, and I’m fine with that — just gets us to the draft sooner.
Coach of the Year voting isn’t that helpful as an evaluating tool because it’s based primarily on winning percentage, which IS helpful as a tool, but only with proper context.
Don Chaney won coach of the year in Detroit, but didn’t have much success in New York.
Lenny Wilkens won it in Atlanta, but he didn’t have much success in New York.
Mike D’Antoni won it in Phoenix, but he didn’t have much success in New York.
Don Nelson won it multiple times, but he didn’t have much success in New York.
Basically, coaches are good, until they aren’t good anymore, but some get good again, only to seemingly forget everything they know about coaching, only to wake up from their temporary amnesia and remember how to be a good coach again, only to be thrown under the bus by their disgruntled star player, only to survive the bus accident and become an even better coach, but then for some reason they forget how to coach during a key moment in the playoffs, only to go into broadcasting where they say both smart and dumb things, then get hired to coach again, where they seem good at first, but then they lose the respect of the young players on the team because they are now boomers and even if they remember how to coach it doesn’t matter because the game has changed and they can’t adapt.
Aren’t they messing up next season by starting this now? Or do they intend to begin a full 82 game season two weeks after crowning a champ that no one will ever really consider a champ?
At least now WWWes has an official job with the Knicks rather than orchestrating from behind the scenes. Maybe now he can actually get fired and embarrass himself enough to remain gone.
ma starts them off on the stovetop and finishes them off in the oven also…they come out perfect…
hi jowles, about how long in the 425 oven do you leave them in?
I’ve thought about switching to a gas grill a bunch over the years…something about the whole charcoal process I enjoy…gas is a lot easier and more practical though…
Their plan is to push the start of next season to December.
Houston, but yeah, agreed with the overall point.
Novak Djokovic also tested positive. The Serbians aren’t doing well.
It all depends. This steak was like 2″ thick. I just pull it out and check it with the Thermapen, which gives me a reading in seconds. Letting it rest for 5-10m will keep a lot of the juice in the steak when you cut it, but it will also rise in temp a bit as some of the stored heat in the meat works inward. So if you want a 135F steak in the center, you probably want to pull it out around 130 or so, depending on how long you plan to let it sit. It’s hard to judge due to the many factors but perfect accuracy is only attainable with sous vide anyway.
Once you’ve perfected the sear/roast part, then you move onto pan sauces. I like deglazing with some red wine, garlic, coarse mustard, worcester, onion and heavy cream for special occasions, usually those occasions where I will not be compelled to move from the couch for several hours afterward. It’s a rare thing but kind of necessary if you’ve got a tender, but flavorless piece of meat like filet mignon.
They were hanging out together during the break, I believe.
It sounds like Jokic will only be delayed a week.
Love the steak thread! I used to use a cast iron skillet a lot (and a small frying pan that supposedly was owned by one of my wife’s great-grandmothers!), but I’ve read not to use it on our new glass top range due to the risk of scratching the surface.
I’ve considered converting from charcoal to gas for the outside grill, but the specter of Hannah Storm’s accident keeps me from that. Plus, I love the taste from charcoal with wood chips… I don’t have any trouble grilling whatever I want with charcoal. My father in law has a gas grill, and the food that comes off that doesn’t taste as good to me as mine do, but of course that could be lack of seasoning/prep when he grills…
Looks like MLB may be firing up for 60 games.
You can use cast iron just fine on glass. Just don’t drag it along the surface if you’re worried about the look. You could get enamel-clad cast iron for added protection.
Charcoal tastes better, gas is more convenient. That’s pretty much it. You can add a wood-chip smoking box to a gas grill to get some of that flavor back. You can’t really make charcoal anywhere near as easy as gas, though. You should test your gas connection/line regularly to make sure there are no leaks.
And most importantly: DO NOT WEAR SYNTHETIC FABRIC WHILE GRILLING! Those compression shirts and poly-blend zip-ups that everyone loves so much in the warm weather will melt instantly and graft onto your skin, turning a 1st-degree burn into a severe 2nd in the blink of an eye. Cotton fabric only when working with any flame or gas flare-up risk.
I have a glass range as well and from what I understand there’s no extra risk in scratching it with a cast iron pan vs any other kind of pan. The pan itself shouldn’t scratch the glasstop, it’s if there’s any grit in between the pan and glass that does the scratching.
Buzzkill public service announcement: Please limit your intake of charred organic compounds, like charcoal, wood burning, charred meat, burnt oil and fat. Aromatic hydrocarbons and heterocyclic amines do a number on your chromosomes and are a real risk.
Timely tip, considering what I’m currently wearing and what I’m going to do in a few hours.
Have you ever tried cooking steaks with the brown butter method? For the combination of texture and flavor, I don’t think it can be beat. You can put it in the oven but I find just basting it with the butter in the pan works well enough that I never need to.
But it tastes so GOOOOOOD!
During warm weather, I grill outside once or twice per week, max, mostly chicken (ribs, chops, steak from time to time). I wonder if that’s enough for harmful health effects from charcoal grilling?
Thanks all for the comments about cast iron. I think I’ll pull out our vintage frying pan and try it out on one of the back burners.
Hey, my favorite food in the world is a well charred 3″ Delmonico steak in lots of oil in a piping hot cast iron skillet then oven for a little bit, similar to Jowles (seriously, like I said before, an instant read thermometer is KEY in getting the right doneness, especially if using an oven at all)…. But it is important to know just how bad burning shit is. So I stay away from too much oil, too much butter, too much fat, and too much char. And I don’t use charcoal or wood anymore. I also wrap veggies in aluminum (garlic turns to butter mmm) so that the burnt fat/oil-infused smoke doesn’t coat it too much.
Yeah, shit, I’d hate to die young!
there’s a williams-sonoma by ma’s house…i’ll pickup a skillet there…
okay then:
1). salt steak, put in plastic storage thing in fridge for 1 to 2 days
2). add pepper, maybe a dab of olive oil (maybe a dab for geo – just kidding, geo don’t dab, cuz i don’t wanna burn my face off with a blowtorch, and, the pen is a sticky mess after a while)
3). cook on seasoned cast iron skillet on medium to high heat
4). turn after 1 to 2 minutes???
5). don’t forget to use the mitt – grab skillet and place in 450 preheated oven
6). check temperature after ??? minutes to see if it has reached center temp of 130
7). once again, do not forget oven mitt – grab skillet, place back on stovetop, remove steak to plate, let stand at least 5 minutes, enough time to finish prepping rest of meal…thank whomever 🙂
8). sauce away – red wine, coarse mustard, butter, maybe a little water and gravy flour stuff
i eat much healthier now, not necessarily due to increased knowledge – my rapidly aging vessel more and more dictates my consumption choices…lots of water (that may be cuz of all the weed though) and “light” eating…steak is like a three day digestive commitment…not something to be taken lightly…
well, maybe that is a factor of increased awareness…
You don’t want to put it in a storage container. It should be put in the fridge uncovered and have it elevated above the tray it’s on so the steak isn’t sitting in pooling liquid. It should be uncovered so the liquid being drawn out by the salt evaporates.
Where are all the vegetarian knickerbloggers? I need some new seitan recipes.
Dink, I’m trying to do intermittent fasting/vegan twice per week. In fact, today is one of those days, and all this talk of cooking out, steaks, etc. is driving me crazy.
No recipes, just Fiber One cereal (w/soy milk and a few blueberries) and two salads for the day to stay under 600 calories. Oh, and two cups of coffee (one each morning and night) plus tons of water.
I love how the same people that complain about coaches not adapting to a changing, data driven NBA are posting steak recipes.
Eating steak is like taking long 2 pointers, guys. Both are appetizing, and look good when they go in, but when you break it down, you realize you can be so much more efficient with a few minor tweaks…
Coffee at night? The fuck?
Lol. I’ve actually severely cut back on eating beef over the last like 18 months. Not that I never eat beef but it’s only like once or twice a month at most.
I’ve dabbled in vegetarianism but don’t have the willpower to fully commit. I’ve never cooked with seitan but I try to make vegetarian dishes once a week or so. A lot of pasta/veg, rice/veg, and shakshuka dishes.
So, about the NBA restarting. Avery Bradley isn’t playing because one of his children is at-risk for covid, Jokic and Malcolm Brogdon have both tested positive so far, and it’s taking place in Florida where cases are spiking and their idiot governor refuses to do anything about it in order to suck up to our idiot in chief. Anyone else thinking this might be a bad idea?
Yes.
The product will be shit (I will be shocked if I watch a single second of these televised scrimmages).
The champion will not be legitimate.
It’s a waste of time. Just get on with the off-season and be ready to not fuck up next season.