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Wednesday, June 19, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2019.05.15)

  • [NYDN] Knicks fans should have known better than this
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:37:35 PM)

    Somehow, Knicks fans got their hopes up for Tuesday night’s lottery. As the Daily News reported live from a lottery party in Midtown, they were “shocked” by losing out on Zion Williamson. Even though the team only had a 14 percent chance of securing the No. 1 pick, once they moved into the top…

  • [NYDN] Behind the scenes at NBA lottery that landed No. 3 pick for Knicks and sent Zion Williamson to New Orleans
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 8:57:08 PM)

    CHICAGO — The Zion balls were drawn first, accompanied with a tense silence in the room as the numbers were read at the podium.

    “7-4-12-13.”

    The Knicks survived until the third number. “Twelve” officially removed them from the Zion sweepstakes, and Allan Houston, the Knicks’ representative in the…

  • [YahooSports] NBA rumors: Kevin Durant to Knicks ‘100 percent done,’ veteran player says
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:52:09 PM)

    NBA rumors: Kevin Durant to Knicks ‘100 percent done,’ veteran player says originally appeared on nbcsportsbayarea.com Every day now it seems we go back and forth with the Kevin Durant free-agency rumors. He’s staying with the Warriors. He’s going to New York.

  • [TheRinger] NBA rumors: Kevin Durant to Knicks ‘100 percent done,’ veteran player says
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:52:09 PM)

    NBA rumors: Kevin Durant to Knicks ‘100 percent done,’ veteran player says originally appeared on nbcsportsbayarea.com Every day now it seems we go back and forth with the Kevin Durant free-agency rumors. He’s staying with the Warriors. He’s going to New York.

  • [Newsday] NBA rumors: Kevin Durant to Knicks ‘100 percent done,’ veteran player says
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:52:09 PM)

    NBA rumors: Kevin Durant to Knicks ‘100 percent done,’ veteran player says originally appeared on nbcsportsbayarea.com Every day now it seems we go back and forth with the Kevin Durant free-agency rumors. He’s staying with the Warriors. He’s going to New York.

  • [Sports Illustrated] Spike Lee on Knicks Missing Out on Zion Williamson: ‘Dagnabbitt’
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 11:51:14 PM)

    The Knicks landed the No. 3 pick in Tuesday night’s NBA draft lottery.

  • [Sports Illustrated] Stephen A. Smith Is in Agony Over the Knicks Losing the No. 1 Draft Pick
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 10:12:27 PM)

    The Knicks earned the No. 3 draft pick and likely lost the chance to select Zion Williamson.

  • [Sports Illustrated] Knicks Land No. 3 Pick in 2019 NBA Draft Lottery
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:00:00 PM)

    The Knicks missed out on the No. 1 pick and a chance at Zion Williamson.

  • [Sports Illustrated] A Look Back at the Knicks’ History in the NBA Draft Lottery
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 3:11:06 PM)

    The Knicks haven’t moved up in the lottery since 1985, the year they took Patrick Ewing No. 1 overall. 

  • [Sports Illustrated] Report: Knicks May Target Anthony Davis Trade if They Land The No. 1 Draft Pick, Zion Williamson
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 2:57:12 PM)

    New York has a 14% chance of winning the No. 1 pick in Tuesday’s draft lottery. 

  • [Sports Illustrated] Spike Lee Asks ‘Basketball Gods’ to Give Knicks No. 1 Pick in NBA Draft Lottery
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 2:05:35 PM)

    Lee sought divine intervention ahead of this year’s NBA draft lottery.

  • [Hoops Rumors] Draft Notes: Hawks, Culver, Morant, Knicks
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 11:09:36 PM)

    The Pelicans and Grizzlies made meteoric rises in tonight’s draft lottery, landing the first and second picks respectively. It’s widely assumed that Zion Williamson and Ja Morant will be the selections, however, much can happen before the draft next month. Let’s take a look at some notes from teams that didn’t move up in the […]

  • [Hoops Rumors] Pelicans Win 2019 NBA Draft Lottery; Grizzlies, Knicks In Top 3
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 8:53:43 PM)

    With Tuesday night’s lottery results now official, the top 14 picks in the 2019 NBA draft have been set. The lottery order is as follows: New Orleans Pelicans Memphis Grizzlies New York Knicks Los Angeles Lakers Cleveland Cavaliers Phoenix Suns Chicago Bulls Atlanta Hawks Washington Wizards Atlanta Hawks (from Mavericks) Minnesota Timberwolves Charlotte Hornets Miami […]

  • [Hoops Rumors] Anthony Davis Would Consider Re-Signing With Knicks
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 5:57:09 PM)

    If the Knicks were to trade for Anthony Davis, the big man would consider re-signing with the franchise if he felt he could be successful in New York, sources Ian Begley of SNY.tv  Speculation about the Knicks landing three max-level players this offseason has surfaced and Begley explains how New York could put together an intriguing big […]

  • [Hoops Rumors] Knicks Rumors: A. Davis, Zion, Offseason Plans
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 3:29:52 PM)

    The winner of tonight’s NBA draft lottery will ostensibly be the winner of the Zion Williamson sweepstakes, but it’s possible that the team with the No. 1 pick will end up using Williamson as a trade chip. While most clubs wouldn’t pass on the opportunity to move forward with the Duke forward as a franchise […]

  • [Hoops Rumors] Knicks Have Interest In Terry Rozier, Marcus Morris
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 1:17:03 PM)

    While Kyrie Irving has been linked to New York for months, he’s not the only Celtics free agent that the Knicks will have their eye on this offseason. League sources tell A. Sherrod Blakely of NBC Sports Boston that the Knicks will also have interest in Terry Rozier and Marcus Morris. Rozier, who is finishing […]

  • [NYTimes] Warriors Beat the Blazers in Game 1 as Stephen Curry Sinks Nine 3-Pointers
    (Wednesday, May 15, 2019 4:38:04 AM)

    Opening the Western Conference finals, Curry shot 12 for 23 from the field in his fourth 30-point performance this postseason.

  • [NYTimes] 2019 N.B.A. Draft Lottery: Pelicans Win No. 1 Pick, and the Right to Select Zion Williamson
    (Wednesday, May 15, 2019 5:30:08 AM)

    New Orleans faces the decision of whether to select the N.B.A.’s most hyped prospect since LeBron James or to trade the pick for a king’s ransom of assets.

  • [NYTimes] Western Conference Finals Preview: Hungry for Its Own Title, Portland Aims to Dent Golden State’s Dynasty
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 2:28:32 PM)

    The Trail Blazers have run into the Warriors’ buzz saw in two of the previous three seasons, but led by Damian Lillard and C.J. McCollum they believe they can compete.

  • [NYTimes] Eastern Conference Finals Preview: Kawhi vs. Giannis: Tired Raptors Head to Milwaukee for Slugfest
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 10:35:48 PM)

    The Raptors, after one of the most memorable games in league history, have to immediately shift gears to take on the juggernaut Milwaukee Bucks. Here’s what to look for.

  • [NYTimes] In the N.B.A. Lottery, the Knicks Will Take Their 14 Percent Shot at Zion Williamson
    (Wednesday, May 15, 2019 5:36:00 AM)

    Under the previous lottery system, the Knicks — by finishing with the league’s worst record — would have had a 25 percent chance at getting the Duke star.

  • [NYPost] Vegas didn’t punish Knicks for losing out on Zion Williamson
    (Wednesday, May 15, 2019 1:01:45 AM)

    The Knicks may have lost out on Zion Williamson, but they weren’t losers, according to Westgate SuperBook. The Knicks, who finished with a league-worst 17-65 record, remained a 16/1 choice to win the NBA title in 2020, in odds Westgate released after the lottery. The lofty odds stem from the belief the Knicks will make…

  • [NYPost] Isiah Thomas talks Kevin Durant and Zion Williamson’s star power
    (Wednesday, May 15, 2019 12:26:10 AM)

    CHICAGO — Isiah Thomas believes any team that lands Kevin Durant one day may be sipping his champagne during a championship celebration. On hand at the Chicago Hilton to promote a champagne partnership with the Players Association on Tuesday night before the Knicks got the No. 3 pick in the NBA Draft Lottery, the former…

  • [NYPost] This fan’s Zion Williamson Knicks tattoo didn’t age well
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 11:02:28 PM)

    Maybe this Knicks fan should have waited until after the NBA draft lottery to get a tattoo of Zion Williamson with the team’s logo. The Pelicans won the lottery that was held in Chicago and are expected to take the Duke star with the No. 1 pick. The Knicks had to settle for the third…

  • [NYPost] 2019 NBA Draft Lottery: The night tanking died
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:52:46 PM)

    The Knicks, Cavaliers and Suns lost one more time. And the NBA won big-time. Tanks. For. Nothing! The league, in an effort to crack down on teams losing with a purpose, bumped down the worst team’s odds to win the draft lottery — from a staggering 25 percent the season before to 14 percent —…

  • [NYPost] Inside Knicks’ edgy lottery party: Zion Williamson grief and hope
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 8:18:47 PM)

    They chanted and screamed for an hour, hoping their vocal chords could somehow translate into NBA draft lottery luck. They chanted, “We Want Zion” and “14 percent” and “Let’s Go Knicks.” Slattery’s Midtown Pub in Manhattan sounded like the Garden used to sound this time of year, when the Knicks were fighting for championships, not…

  • [NYPost] Knicks’ Anthony Davis chances likely take huge hit
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 8:05:19 PM)

    CHICAGO — Not only don’t the Knicks have Zion Williamson to make the centerpiece of a package for Anthony Davis, but the Pelicans already have him. In a double-whammy, the Pelicans won the NBA Draft Lottery and the rights to Williamson. That has emboldened new Pelicans general manager David Griffin to attempt to sway Davis…

  • [NYPost] Zion Williamson’s heartbreak: He wanted Knicks before shocker
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 6:34:34 PM)

    Zion Williamson might be more heartbroken than Knicks fans. The wunderkind Duke phenom had been rooting for the Knicks to win his namesake sweepstakes, according to ESPN, only to see the New Orleans Pelicans jump from the seventh slot to the top overall pick following a chaotic lottery reveal. Williamson was “quickly whisked” out of…

  • [NYPost] Hey, Knicks fans: Zion Williamson lottery nightmare won’t sting forever
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 6:01:19 PM)

    WASHINGTON — In a few days, the disappointment will fade — honestly, it will — and reason will take over. In a few days — OK, maybe it’ll take a week — the reality that Zion Williamson is likely headed for Bourbon Street instead of Broadway will stop gnawing at you, and you will allow…

  • [NYPost] What Anthony Davis’ Pelicans future may look like after NBA lottery stunner
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 5:50:38 PM)

    Anthony Davis has been looking for his New Orleans exit, but could that change now that it appears likely the Pelicans will draft Duke star Zion Williamson? Before the 2019 NBA draft lottery, The Post’s Marc Berman reported that Pelicans GM David Griffin had a goal of changing Anthony Davis’ mind on a trade and…

  • [NYPost] 2019 NBA Draft Lottery reactions: Knicks fans can’t fathom the shock
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 5:23:25 PM)

    The Knicks survived the chaos until they didn’t. None of the three teams that came to town with the highest chance to win the NBA Draft Lottery — dubbed the Zion Williamson Sweepstakes — ended up winning in a shocking turn of events Tuesday at the Hilton Chicago. All that tanking from the Knicks, Cleveland…

  • [NYPost] NBA Draft Lottery order: Full list of where teams will pick in 2019
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 5:06:03 PM)

    We have a winner! After months of teams eyeing up the chance to take Zion Williamson with the top pick in the 2019 NBA draft, it’s the New Orleans Pelicans that have the chance to select him on June 20. The Duke wunderkind has long been tabbed as the top prospect, a sentiment only reinforced…

  • [NYPost] Knicks fall to No. 3 pick at NBA Draft Lottery, miss out on Zion Williamson
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 4:53:35 PM)

    CHICAGO — The Zion Williamson dream is dead. The Knicks, the NBA’s worst team, will select third in June’s draft — their 17-65 record failing to net them the golden ticket at Tuesday’s NBA Draft Lottery. In a three-star draft, however, No. 3 isn’t so bad. The Knicks will have a chance at either electric…

  • [NYPost] Fake 2019 NBA draft lottery results send Knicks fans into panic
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 3:30:16 PM)

    It is the nightmare Knicks scenario. It was also only a false alarm. Twitter user @NewLookKnicks caused chaos after catching ESPN rehearse the great Zion Williamson reveal Tuesday afternoon at the Hilton Chicago. The faux results in this run-through saw the pingpong balls bounce in the Phoenix Suns’ favor and the Knicks fall all the…

  • [NYPost] The hottest NBA takers go all-in on Kevin Durant-to-Knicks
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 1:57:14 PM)

    The suppliers of the hottest takes around are surprisingly in agreement with each other — and the masses. Colin Cowherd on Tuesday went all-in on the Kevin Durant-Knicks hype, one-upping ESPN adversary Stephen A. Smith and the conventional wisdom that’s been circulating for over a year. “An NBA veteran player very connected told me 15…

  • [NYPost] Patrick Ewing won’t reveal how he’ll fix NBA Draft Lottery for Knicks
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:39:27 AM)

    On the remote chance The Post’s appeals to the gods go unheeded, Patrick Ewing and the Knicks have their own covert operations in place. Before Tuesday’s NBA Draft Lottery, in which the Knicks (allegedly) have a 14 percent chance of landing the No. 1 pick and Zion Williamson, the New York icon allowed that of…

  • [NYPost] NBA draft lottery: Patrick Ewing joins these team representatives
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 7:00:09 AM)

    The Knicks hope that having the biggest star at the NBA draft lottery will bring long-awaited luck to the downtrodden franchise. Patrick Ewing, the prize of the first-ever lottery in 1985, will represent the team which drafted him at Tuesday night’s event in Chicago, with the Knicks tied for the best odds (14 percent) of…

  • [SNY Knicks] How Knicks landing No. 3 pick impacts a potential Anthony Davis trade
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 10:00:35 PM)

    One of the biggest questions for the Knicks in the aftermath of Tuesday’s NBA Draft Lottery? How does landing the No. 3 pick — and New Orleans landing the top pick — impact New York’s chances of trading for Anthony Davis?

  • [SNY Knicks] Zion Williamson was hoping Knicks landed No. 1 pick in NBA Draft: report
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 11:21:26 PM)

    When all the cards were shown to the masses, it was the New Orleans Pelicans that came out with the No. 1 pick in a wild drawing of teams. And it appears Zion Williamson wasn’t the biggest fan of that.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks get No. 3 pick in NBA Draft and will miss out on Zion Williamson
    (Wednesday, May 15, 2019 12:04:34 AM)

    No, the Knicks didn’t get the No. 1 pick on Tuesday night. But they ended up with, arguably, the next best thing.

  • [SNY Knicks] Why the Knicks landing Kevin Durant is now more crucial than ever
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 10:35:14 PM)

    Yes, the Knicks didn’t land the No. 1 overall pick in this year’s NBA Draft. And while fans mourn their loss of Zion Williamson to the Pelicans — the team that did land the first pick — the gears shift to a very important free agency period for New York.

  • [SNY Knicks] SEE IT: NYC back pages react to Knicks missing out on Zion Williamson
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 10:38:48 PM)

    New York could have fallen to No. 4 or No. 5. Getting the No. 3 pick is good. But the New York back pages treated it as a tragedy.

  • [SNY Knicks] Twitter, fans react to Knicks getting No. 3 pick in NBA Draft
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 11:33:29 PM)

    The Knicks’ dreams of drafting Zion Williamson went out the door on Tuesday when they drew the No. 3 pick during the NBA Draft Lottery.

  • [SNY Knicks] WATCH: Knicks target Ja Morant on NBA goals
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 10:45:12 PM)

    With the Knicks drawing the No. 3 pick in the NBA Draft Lottery on Tuesday night, they will likely land either Murray State guard Ja Morant or Duke guard R.J. Barrett.

  • [SNY Knicks] Patrick Ewing tells Knicks fans ‘Be happy with what we have’
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:27:46 PM)

    Knicks fans were let down on Tuesday night when it was revealed they will have the No. 3 pick in the 2019 NBA Draft.

  • [SNY Knicks] Here’s how Knicks can trade for Anthony Davis and still fit two max free agents
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 3:34:26 PM)

    Anthony Davis would certainly consider re-signing with the Knicks if he felt he could be successful in New York, per SNY sources familiar with the matter. And here’s how a Davis to New York trade could work…

  • [SNY Knicks] If Knicks get No. 1 pick, their focus will shift to trading for Anthony Davis: Report
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 2:17:29 PM)

    Any trade for Davis would involve the Knicks’ top pick and more, and the Pelicans recently gathered intel on Kevin Knox, according to SNY’s Ian Begley.

  • [SNY Knicks] Latest on Knicks target Kyrie Irving: People around him ‘trying to convince’ him to look at Nets
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 4:05:17 PM)

    Celtics star Kyrie Irving can be a free agent after the season, and the idea that he could team up with fellow free agent Kevin Durant on the Knicks this summer has picked up steam since the Kristaps Porzingis trade cleared two max slots for New York. Here are the latest rumors…

  • [SNY Knicks] Kyrie Irving isn’t only Celtics free agent Knicks have eyes on: report
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 10:47:24 AM)

    In addition to Celtics guard Kyrie Irving, the Knicks have taken an interest in Boston guard Terry Rozier and forward Marcus Morris.

  • [SNY Knicks] Patrick Ewing talks NBA lottery, conspiracies
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 12:01:47 PM)

    Knicks legend Patrick Ewing was drafted No. 1 overall by the team after New York won the draft lottery in 1985. Will the Knicks luck out with the top spot Tuesday?

  • [SNY Knicks] Why Mavericks’ spot in NBA Draft lottery is important to Knicks
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 9:42:56 AM)

    The Knicks will be pulling for the Mavericks to be picking outside of the top five in order to pick up two future first round picks.

  • [SNY Knicks] Latest on Knicks target Kevin Durant: KD to NY is ‘100 percent done’
    (Tuesday, May 14, 2019 1:25:23 PM)

    Warriors star Kevin Durant can be a free agent after the season, and the idea that he could team up with fellow free agent Kyrie Irving on the Knicks this summer has picked up steam since the Kristaps Porzingis trade cleared two max slots for New York. Here are the latest rumors…

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    183 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2019.05.15)

    1. DS

      I’m sure it was said amongst the 200 comments last night but: I’m disappointed to miss out on Zion, but played mock lottery enough to be relieved not to end up with #5.

      ESPN’s take that we “moved down” or that we lost when odds were that we would’ve fallen lower is annoying. Stephen A. continues to be the worst.

    2. KnickfaninNJ

      It’s actually not a lousy pick, and I can finally change my handle without jinxing the draft

    3. Hubert

      Yeah, the cap makes the Knicks’ options a lot more limited for trade partners than you would expect.

      Wait, Brian, are you ready to hit your head into a wall?

      Guess whose expiring contract would have been perfect to have right now as salary weight to combine with Barrett.

      Joakim Noah!

      Yup, you were 100% right about that one.

    4. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

      Just one question, since NO likely won’t accept the 3rd pick without MitchRob for AD…

      Can Barrett play the 2 defensively in the NBA?

      Just tryina warm up to the idea of not having Zion and Morant…

    5. alsep73

      Odds are we trade whoever we draft (and might have even with the top pick), but for argument’s sake, is there a circumstance where it makes sense for Memphis to pass on Ja for Barrett or someone else?

    6. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

      Don’t get me wrong, think Barrett is a fantastic prospect…but I want Zion or Ja.. dammit shit! LOL

    7. alsep73

      Can Barrett play the 2 defensively in the NBA?

      Some draft guys this morning even suggested he could be a big lead guard. Like a bigger Jamal Murray?

    8. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @5

      Maybe if someone does really well in a 3 on 3 workout, heh

    9. alsep73

      Don’t get me wrong, think Barrett is a fantastic prospect…but I want Zion or Ja.. dammit shit! LOL

      Same. But look at it this way: we have a long tradition of falling to the A-plus-1 spot in what are considered A players deep drafts. We fell to third in a three player draft. Zion is obviously in his own tier, and Ja might be, too, but Barrett is still considered a MUCH better prospect than anyone else. Which gives us lots of trade leverage.

    10. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

      @5
      I thought about that too, but realized there’s no one presumably available who I would trade the #3 for that’s not named Anthony Davis. Now..if Lilliard, Chris Paul, or maybe Simmons, Olapido or KAT could be had for that pick- that’s another story

    11. vincoug

      @4

      Can Barrett play the 2 offensively in the NBA? Dude can’t shoot. Unless he turns into Dwyane Wade I’m not seeing how he survives at guard in the pros. Of course, I’m not really seeing how he survives at the 3 either without a shot.

    12. Hubert

      Odds are we trade whoever we draft (and might have even with the top pick), but for argument’s sake, is there a circumstance where it makes sense for Memphis to pass on Ja for Barrett or someone else?

      It’s not inconceivable that a team would think Barrett is a better prospect than Morant. They could talk themselves into quality of opposition, size and length, etc.

    13. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

      @7
      Barrett fits better to me as a secondary playmaker. I wonder if his shot can be fixed though. Sometimes it looks like his shooting woes are a result of selection and other times…oof…at least from 18 and out

    14. Hubert

      By the way, I’m watching video on ESPN of David Griffin walking around taking bows and congratulations (for doing nothing) while Zion nervously talks about how he’s never been to New Orleans but will go wherever he’s drafted.

      The whole thing eerily reminded me of the bingo auction in Get Out. I don’t mean to go all Debbie Downer, but the whole lottery/draft thing is really kinda fucked up.

    15. geehee

      The silver lining of this all (besides the Dallas picks) is that the other 2 teams with the same odds of picking #1, got screwed worse.

      I’d be open trading down to get Culver all being said though. To those thinking Morant is going to drop – it’s not happening.

    16. Farfa

      My main points about the lottery results:

      1) No pre-emptive divorce (I kinda hoped for better, but #3 was ok). That’s good.
      2) The KP trade now becomes a solid B+, with the Dallas pick conveying in 2021 and the other protected one in 2023. Good.
      3) Fuck the Lakers.
      4) Fuck the Celtics.
      5) Actually, as Hubert already said, this year’s third pick is just perfect as a trade asset. RJ Barrett has a lot of reputation around the league (which means is/could be a coveted asset) but there’s no way that we’ll feel bad if/when we send him pack his bags goodbye.
      6) There’a chance that we can really trade for Zion, as absurd as it is. If the Lakers or some other big market team jumped ahead of us, that’d be way more unlikely. Now we only have to work all the angles of a potential trade if Zion makes it known that he doesn’t want to play in NO. Barrett + unprotected Dallas 1st in 2021 + own pick in (your year of choice) could be enough to grab him, if Griffin has to save face. Unlikely but not impossible.
      7) No chance in hell we’re drafting Cam Reddish. That wasn’t a guarantee from #4 on. Very good.
      8) There’s an off chance Memphis doesn’t draft Morant and goes for Barrett. That would be stupendous.
      9) Even if we keeping Barrett, if we nab Durant and spare pieces it’s a good roster. Token PG-Dotson-Barrett-KD-Mitch with a bench of DSJ/Frank (one has to go)-Trier-Knox-Morris-Kornet is a decent team in the East. If we get Kyrie or Kemba (and subtract the pieces needed) even better.
      10) Fuck the Lakers.
      11) The AD trade looks more likely. But I don’t want Mitch to go, so that’s kind of a bummer.

    17. Farfa

      I’d be open trading down to get Culver all being said though.

      I mean, if Culver and Brandon Clarke were there at #8 and #10…

    18. geehee

      I mean, if Culver and Brandon Clarke were there at #8 and #10

      Are Atlanta desperate enough?

    19. thenoblefacehumper

      The #3 pick is an objectively above average outcome, but it sure was a gut punch after being the worst team in the top-4. Since Zion and maybe Ja seem like the only two top-5 prospects who could realistically help a team win next season, if the KD and Kyrie plan is still intact it’s a little difficult to see how this pick ever suits up for us.

      If we assume we’re keeping whoever we draft, I probably lean Barrett over Culver by a hair at the moment (this has already changed multiple times though).

      The Dallas situation is a nice silver lining, and I agree with everyone pointing out that avoiding the lottery in 2020-2021 is no sure thing for them. It regularly takes around 48 wins to make the playoffs in the West, and right now they are simply not very close to that on paper. A lot will depend on what they’re able to do in free agency–without their picks they’ll likely have no compunctions about overpaying for veterans on short-term deals.

    20. thenoblefacehumper

      The whole thing eerily reminded me of the bingo auction in Get Out. I don’t mean to go all Debbie Downer, but the whole lottery/draft thing is really kinda fucked up.

      That’s a very good comparison, hyperbole and all. It’s always been this gross, but this year’s spectacle sure shined a unique light on it.

      I can’t fathom being one of the most highly sought after workers in your field, and yet having no say when it comes to your salary, living location, and co-workers for the next five years at a bare minimum.

    21. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I am firmly in the “do not trade Mitchell Robinson or RJ Barrett” camp. Having those two around $10M AAV over the next few years will prove to be very valuable. We just have to do something about this pesky Kevin Knox situation. That guy is, at best, a taller Marcus Morris without the toughness. Hopefully we can sell high and get a back up point guard for him.

    22. GoNYGoNYGo - Calling for KD

      I am, as all of you are, disappointed. It was a dream, but the odds were never in our favor. We just hoped to have the luck that New Orleans found. Oh well. On to new things. I agree with the fact that there were 3 tiers for the Knicks in this draft. Zion stood along in tier-1. Morant and Barrett were tier-2. Tier-3 might include a half dozen good players. We ended up in tier-2 which, any other year would be considered tier-1. Ja and RJ are both potential perennial all-stars. No, they aren’t the generational stud that folks predict Zion to be. Still, these are real stud players. Either kid would fit the bill for us.

      In an interview with Mike Greenberg, Barrett called himself the best player in the draft and said that in one-on-one battles with Zion, the results were “split”. I’m hopeful that the gap between Zion and Morant/Barrett is narrower than the Zion hype makes us believe.

      And I don’t want to make any trades. I’m ready to go to battle with Knox, KD, Kyrie, Barrett/Morant & Robinson. With 7 picks in the next 5 years, good things are coming our way. Let’s hope that Dallas sucks wind for the next few years.

    23. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Can Barrett play the 2 offensively in the NBA? Dude can’t shoot. Unless he turns into Dwyane Wade I’m not seeing how he survives at guard in the pros. Of course, I’m not really seeing how he survives at the 3 either without a shot.

      smh.

      His best chance of NBA survival would be to become 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 etc.. and practice his shot every day while finishing at the rim, making plays, rebounding, defending and doing everything else he already does well until his shot is better and he becomes a very good all around player.

    24. Hubert

      Of course it’s gross. It’s always been gross.

      You’re right, but something about old man Griffin being suddenly reinvigorated really drove it home for me this year, especially in light of that scene entering the public consciousness.

    25. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      @20 Tommy Beer is one of the better Knicks writers. He knows the game well and usually just lays out the facts, his views, and explanations. I read that article last night and thought it was a breath of fresh air from someone not consumed with Zion hype and emotion.

    26. DRed

      In an interview with Mike Greenberg, Barrett called himself the best player in the draft and said that in one-on-one battles with Zion, the results were “split”.

      Lol nah

    27. rama got that Fizdale Magic

      @20

      “He’s been a winner wherever he’s went”
      “Buckets in bunches”
      “Prototypical measurements”

      Seriously, have you learned nothing on this blog? Not saying RJ can’t become great, but very little of that article (save a mention of his high free throw rate) is significant evidence of star potential.

    28. KnickfaninNJ

      All you guys bashing Barrett should remember that up until the actual draft this blog was mostly in the camp that this was a three player draft. All of a sudden it’s a two person draft? It must be Knickerblogger’s Razor: whatever we get must be bad even if it looked good in foresight.

    29. Name is Bron - James Bron

      In an interview with Mike Greenberg, Barrett called himself the best player in the draft and said that in one-on-one battles with Zion, the results were “split”.

      Pfft. Talk to me when you’re the best at 3-on-3.

      Here’s a sobering QUERY after ignoring 4 or 4/5s:
      – Freshman
      – G or G/F or F
      – Greater than 250 MP
      – BPM > 7
      – FT% < 68%

      Perry should be fired if he doesn't:
      (1) Trade RJ for Covington (presuming KD and Kyrie/kemba ready to sign)
      (2) Offer RJ/Lance/DSJ/Frank/Knox/Mavs picks for AD

    30. thenamestsam

      It’s always scary with the prospects who “just” need to learn how to shoot because it has become such a make or break skill in the league. If Barrett’s jump shot is broken I think it completely takes away his ceiling as a star level talent because I donn’t think he’s high enough level as an athlete to dominate without it. But the key to me is that it also makes it hard for him to be all that useful as a role player. Wings who can’t shoot are a tough piece and the higher level the games get the more those guys get squeezed out if defenses won’t guard them. Look at Harkless and Aminu in Portland, both of whom are really nice role players but are causing them problems in these playoffs because they’re just not great shooters. And both of those guys are bigger than Barrett (I realize he can, in theory, do many things they can’t as well).

      Shooting, in my eyes, has become the skill around which everything else is defined, so it makes drafting guys who list that as a weakness very high risk. That’s not to say I’m completely out on Barrett because I’m not convinced the shot is broken – I’m not enough of an expert to say and there are some smart people who seem to think his issue is more shot selection (the FT% is concerning though). But I will definitely be happier if Memphis finds a way to talk themselves into him.

    31. Hubert

      Here’s our new baseline, btw, factoring in a max for Durant.

      x Noah – 6.43
      1. Durant – 38.15
      2. Barrett – 7.82
      3. Lance – 7.11 ($1.0 guaranteed)
      4. Frank – 4.85
      5. Smith – 4.46
      6. Knox – 4.38
      7. Trier – 3.55
      8. Dotson – 1.61
      9. Mitchell – 1.55
      10. Empty Penalty – .89 (You can put Kornet here, but I think he can be brought back on the min)
      11. Empty Penalty – .89
      12. Empty Penalty – .89

      Total – 82.58
      Cap – 109.00
      Space – 26.42
      Room – $4.49

      It’s really easy to come up with ways to create the space for Kyrie and put together attractive trade options featuring Barrett and Lance’s nonguaranteed salary. The flexibility Perry will have this summer to trade Barrett for a $20-25mm player is tremendous!

      And it’s not completely impossible that Durant and/or Kyrie would be willing shave a tiny bit salary, which opens many more possibilities. Kyrie, in particular, could be motivated to do a 1+1 like Durant did.

    32. The Infamous Cdiggy

      @36:
      1. I like Covington, but he’s not a guy that you should base the heart of a GM’s eval on.
      2. What if NO says no to that deal? What if they insist on MRob?

    33. geehee

      And I don’t want to make any trades. I’m ready to go to battle with Knox, KD, Kyrie, Barrett/Morant & Robinson. With 7 picks in the next 5 years, good things are coming our way. Let’s hope that Dallas sucks wind for the next few years.

      You forgot to mention Ntilikina

    34. ess-dog

      Well, I’m pretty sure they’ll trade Frank for a low first/early 2nd because 1. he sucks 2. we have too many guards now 3. he’s not a Perry guy and 4. they could use that cap space.

    35. Farfa

      What if NO says no to that deal? What if they insist on MRob?

      There’s a part of me that would prefer to fizzle out with Mitch in tow than to win the whole shebang with Kyrie, KD and AD. I guess that’s the part that makes me root for the Knicks.

    36. Farfa

      Well, I’m pretty sure they’ll trade Frank for a low first/early 2nd because 1. he sucks 2. we have too many guards now 3. he’s not a Perry guy and 4. they could use that cap space.

      If Perry gets a late first for Frank he’s a con man. I think Frank could nab at best a 2021 second round pick.

    37. Name is Bron - James Bron

      What if NO says no to that deal? What if they insist on MRob?

      I wouldn’t include Mitch because I think there’s diminishing returns to AD when KD and Kyrie are on the team. I’d rather have Mitch and Covington than AD in that situation.

      An interesting dilemma would be choosing between these 2 options (we keep Mitch in both):
      (1) Covington in a deal for RJ/Knox/Lance
      OR
      (2) AD, if he agrees to extension, for RJ/DSJ/Frank/Knox/Trier/Dotson/Mavs picks/one of our 1sts/two 2nd round Charlotte picks.

    38. djphan

      so the ft shooting is somewhat of a concern but it’s also way overblown if you want to believe that it’s the reason he’s going to fail….. ideally you want it to be over 70% but there’s plenty of players who have developed a shot later on with as bad a ft%…. below is a list from just 2010:

      josh hart
      victor oladipo
      brandon ingram
      kentavious caldwell-pope
      tj mcconnell

      jury’s still out but they’re probably fine:
      miles bridges
      og anunoby

      and the best comp i have for rj…. is the other rj… richard jefferson…. aside from scoring they have eerily similar college lines…. and i can do a deeper dive on this later… but the short of it is… jefferson is probably a likely floor for barrett….

      so yea barrett’s shooting is a bit of a concern… it may or may not develop as well as one might want… but it’s not so bad that there’s no chance of it…

    39. Hubert

      . I like Covington, but he’s not a guy that you should base the heart of a GM’s eval on.

      It’s weird, because Covington is most likely better than Barrett, but trading Barrett for Covington would be a criminal overpay.

      I would do Barrett for Covington, Saric, and the Wolves pick this year, though. I don’t know if they’d be keen on pairing Wiggins 1.0 with Wiggins 2.0, though.

    40. thenoblefacehumper

      If KD and Kyrie are willing to take very slightly less than 100% maxes, the Knicks could theoretically gut the roster of non-Mitch players to trade for Beal. I’m not sure how prudent that would be but the option exists.

      A smaller scale trade for Covington is more appealing to me personally. Barrett and Knox for Covington and the 11th pick makes some sense for both teams, though getting Minny to throw the pick in could be a struggle and I’m not sure I’d do it without it.

    41. Early Bird

      All you guys bashing Barrett should remember that up until the actual draft this blog was mostly in the camp that this was a three player draft.

      I’m not sure this is true. The NBA generally thinks this is a 3 player draft. Knickerblogger is more split. He definitely has some tools and his high usage may explain his not so great defense, but he can’t score efficiently. So why is he taking more shots than Zion? His numbers and even his highlights say he’s not an elite athlete. Can’t shoot + average athlete is a bad combo.

      Culver put up similar numbers. But his defensive numbers are better.

      Clarke put up significantly better numbers. I don’t know why Clarke isn’t higher. Except I do and it’s because he wasn’t number 1 out of high school.

      Bol Bol & Garland look good too.

      There are multiple tiers to this draft. Zion and Ja take the first 2. To me Barrett is in the third tier with the above and I don’t think he’s at the top. I’d rather pick 5th, we still get a top player and we don’t have to dump one of our guys to sign 2 maxes.

    42. thenoblefacehumper

      All you guys bashing Barrett should remember that up until the actual draft this blog was mostly in the camp that this was a three player draft.

      Uh what? Folks here have been sounding some alarms about Barrett pretty much since his first game at Duke. Opinions differ and no one really seems to think he’s a Knox-level catastrophe, but what you said is plainly false.

    43. Farfa

      I’d rather pick 5th,

      That would be a reasonable stance if they didn’t air the rumor that they liked a lot Cam Reddish.

    44. Z-man

      RJ would be a fine outcome given the probabilities going into the lottery and we should not jettison him for a role player like Covington just because he has similarities to some disappointments/busts in the past. He doesn’t turn 19 until June and is already a leader with a very high b-ball IQ in a very nice physical package. I’d rather have Zion or Ja, and would be OK trading him in a clear win for us, but considering how important the intellectual side of the game is, I’m not as down on him as I was on first glance. He’s got a much better chance than guys like Jaylen Brown or Josh Jackson to be a star. He might be on Jayson Tatum’s level (another guy who most here hated as a #3 pick). That would be a very fine outcome for me.

    45. DRed

      It’s always scary with the prospects who “just” need to learn how to shoot because it has become such a make or break skill in the league. If Barrett’s jump shot is broken I think it completely takes away his ceiling as a star level talent because I donn’t think he’s high enough level as an athlete to dominate without it. But the key to me is that it also makes it hard for him to be all that useful as a role player. Wings who can’t shoot are a tough piece and the higher level the games get the more those guys get squeezed out if defenses won’t guard them. Look at Harkless and Aminu in Portland, both of whom are really nice role players but are causing them problems in these playoffs because they’re just not great shooters. And both of those guys are bigger than Barrett (I realize he can, in theory, do many things they can’t as well).

      Barrett is (or I guess I should say was) a really good playmaker. Yes, he only averaged 4.3 assists per game, but that’s a very good number in college basketball. He was 5th in the ACC in assists per game. If you pull back a bit he was in the 89th percentile in assist percentage out of all college players. Sure, some of that is probably tossing up lobs to maybe the best college player of all time, but he was also on the floor with a host of dudes who couldn’t shoot.

      There were 15 forwards in the NBA who averaged more than than 4.3 assists per 36. Assuming RJ doesn’t take some massive leap in shooting he’s probably something like Carris LaVert early in his career, except much younger.

    46. Early Bird

      That would be a reasonable stance if they didn’t air the rumor that they liked a lot Cam Reddish.

      Yeah that’s my 1 worry. But if our staff sucks that much I figure we’re screwed either way.

    47. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Clarke put up significantly better numbers. I don’t know why Clarke isn’t higher.

      I’m all about Clarke, and I would easily trade Barrett for him at #5-7 with sweeteners coming back, maybe a future pick swap or 1st. But it’s true that he’s 3 years older than most of the freshman phenoms, so I see why his stock is lower. djphan is absolutely right that if he put up those numbers as a freshman, it’d be a different story, but the fact is that he did put up those numbers, which has to count for something. His team will probably get a lot of value out of him over the next four years, as opposed to the rest of the young guys who won’t start to be good until their first 4/$80M extension. I mean, the Lakers paid D-Russ to be a shitty player and locker room cancer, and now the Nets got like 4 months of excellent play out of him and likely will have to give him $100M to keep him. And we still don’t know if he’s legit. Contract year, baby!

      I think it’s a waste of a pick to get him at #3 when he could be gotten at 6 or so, but he projects to be at the very least a serviceable player in the NBA. No way (IMO) that he’s going to turn into a guy who shoots .480 TS% and can’t rebound and can’t defend (especially in the era of small-ball perimeter players at the 4). He’s a safe pick with a very high floor. I am happy to get that kind of player at any point in the lottery, given how terrible the average one-and-done player has been over the last few years. I mean shit, do we all remember that Kris Dunn was the #5? Ingram #2? Josh Jackson, Ntilikina and Monk between 4 and 11?

      If you can get a good starter who can defend 1 through (smallball) 5 through the beginning of his athletic prime at #6 while capitalizing on the Barrett hype train, why not?

    48. KnickfaninNJ

      Well I remember differently what this blog thought of RJ, but I don’t have the time Or the skill to go back and do the research to see so remembers correctly. Even if the board had some who didn’t like him, I think Knickerblogger’s razor still holds.

      whatever we get must be bad even if it looked good in foresight.

      Just look at the attitude towards new Knick coaches before we hire them and then after we get them.

    49. Brian Cronin

      All you guys bashing Barrett should remember that up until the actual draft this blog was mostly in the camp that this was a three player draft.

      Here are some comments from the last week (all before the draft lottery) about Barrett (all different posters):

      After the top 2 picks, there is not a single player that projects as a sure-fire star. Barrett, Clarke, Culver, Garland, Bol, Little, etc. all have high floors and low ceilings. Even Reddish is a consistent jumper away from being a very good rotation player or better. So at the end of the day,

      and

      1. Zion
      2. Ja
      3. Culver

      and

      3. Clarke
      4. Garland
      5. Hunter
      6/7. Culver or RJ Barrett

      and

      There’s no way I’m even considering Bol with a top 5 pick. I’d rank the top 5 Zion, Morant, Barrett, Garland, Clarke. Barrett is the player I like the least, but I think he’d have the highest trade value.

      In other words, I don’t believe that’s an accurate description of the blog vis a vis Barrett before the lottery. A bunch of people liked him and a bunch of people did not.

    50. Hubert

      I would say all you guys bashing Barrett should remember that he’s probably never going to play here.

    51. KnickfaninNJ

      I could remember wrong. I don’t follow college basketball and mostly get my player impressions from here. I did just look up some RJ scouting reports. He reminds me a bit of Carmelo or Wiggins or other guys who score but not with modern efficiency, except that he scores at the rim and gets fouled more than most of them. That gives me really mixed feelings. I think how much potential he has may depend on his mental attitude, and that is really hard to tell from the scouting reports.

    52. ess-dog

      Culver is a worse passer and rebounder than RJ, about the same shooter AND over a year older. Culver got a lot better during that extra year… who’s to say RJ won’t get a ton better over the next year? I like Culver, too, but I’d take RJ before him.
      Clarke is like a man playing with children. He’s almost 23! I still like him, but that has to be a factor.

    53. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      So Conley guaranteed his enormous 2020-21 contract by playing 70 games this season ($34.5M). That’s probably immovable, right? There’s a chance that Memphis takes Barrett, right?

    54. Hubert

      If KD and Kyrie are willing to take very slightly less than 100% maxes, the Knicks could theoretically gut the roster of non-Mitch players to trade for Beal. I’m not sure how prudent that would be but the option exists.

      No, they can gut the roster of non-Mitch players and trade for Beal without either of them taking a penny less than the max. Having them take a discount just helps you not gut the roster.

      Also, Beal is one of the more expensive targets (he makes $25.2). You can target a guy making $20-22mm a lot easier.

    55. djphan

      seriously… don’t look at college efficiency numbers…. his numbers are weighed down by 8 attempts per 40 at a 30% clip… it’s very likely that barrett doesn’t shoot as many 3s in the pro’s…. and if it’s way lower then he might even be really good out of the gate….

    56. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Clarke is like a man playing with children.

      Exactly! He roasted these freshmen (and non-NBA upperclassmen) who are going to contribute to the large contingent of “developing” players in the league next year. The players that are worrisome are the players who don’t roast the less-talented or -experienced players. He was freshly 22 for this NCAA season. He’s not 25. You’re basically getting a 19-year-old who makes huge strides in his game during his rookie contract. Only you get him age-wise at the end of his rookie contract… but on a rookie contract. That’s value, baby.

    57. thenoblefacehumper

      I would say all you guys bashing Barrett should remember that he’s probably never going to play here.

      Yeah, if we get KD and Kyrie I think not getting 1/2 makes it very unlikely whoever we pick ever suits up for us. If you have those two and an offer on the table for #3 and change that makes you clearly immediately better, can you really pass it up?

      It’s very, very hard to see a team that has those two taking time to develop 19 year old RJ Barrett.

    58. Z-man

      After the top 2 picks, there is not a single player that projects as a sure-fire star. Barrett, Clarke, Culver, Garland, Bol, Little, etc. all have high floors and low ceilings. Even Reddish is a consistent jumper away from being a very good rotation player or better. So at the end of the day,

      I believe I said this, and realize I meant to say LOW floors and HIGH ceilings (the “Even Reddish is…. follow-up wouldn’t make sense without that change)

      My favorite in the bunch is Garland, if his knee checks out. But I’m fine with Barrett at #3

    59. Early Bird

      Clarke was roasting players as a freshman too. It’s not his fault NBA teams have an aversion to mid majors.

    60. thenoblefacehumper

      No, they can gut the roster of non-Mitch players and trade for Beal without either of them taking a penny less than the max. Having them take a discount just helps you not gut the roster.

      In the scenario I put together we picked up Trier’s option and used him in the trade (not sure we have the firepower without including him), but it looks like you’re right if we decline Trier’s option and renounce him.

      This wouldn’t preclude us from re-signing him (the room exception would actually represent a raise for him, though he’d also be free to negotiate with whoever), but it’s possible there would be a wiser use of the room if we have Beal in the fold.

    61. Frank

      I’d be totally fine with drafting RJ, but I think it’s really really likely that he will be traded so it barely matters.

      Wonder whether Phoenix would send us their 2nd round pick for Frank? Probably not.

    62. Farfa

      Wonder whether Phoenix would send us their 2nd round pick for Frank? Probably not.

      Absolutely not. Teams should have understood by now that high second round picks have crazy value. Frank’s value right now is like, I don’t know, the 45th pick?

      I like Clarke but I’m pretty sure we’re not trading back

      I feel the same, given the impeding situation of the max free agents chase. You have to draft RJ or Morant because a) if you get two max guys you need a good trade chip, even if it’s not the best player you could get and b) if you don’t get two max guys you still need to make the safe pick for a lot of purposes (later trades, fan base, whatever).

      Since the draft will be held before free agency (and anyway I’m pretty sure that by then – tampering rules permitting, wink wink – we’d know if Durant will come here) I don’t see any reason for the Knicks to trade down.

    63. Farfa

      Who do you all think we’re trading RJ for?

      I guess it depends on roster fit, so it depends on whether or not we get KD and Kyrie/Kemba.

      Bradley Beal is a prime candidate. I wouldn’t discount Jrue if NO decides to tear it down. Mike Conley might be another piece.

      (My opinion on those trades: yes – but barely, yes, no – but if you need a steady PG maybe).

    64. Hubert

      It’s hard to project who will fall in love with RJ and who won’t. It would be terrific if Kevin Pritchard loves the kid, because the Pacers could be in a precarious position with Oladipo only signed for two more years. Beal seems ideal, but maybe Washington doesn’t like RJ.

      Let’s see this play out. All I know is Perry has a ton of flexibility. The problem may be the lack of targets.

    65. ess-dog

      Clarke was roasting players as a freshman too. It’s not his fault NBA teams have an aversion to mid majors.

      Wrong. His WS/40 and BPM were both far below Barrett’s during his first year at San Jose State. His numbers were almost Knoxian.

    66. djphan

      if we’re not willing to include the 2021 mavs pick then i don’t see us doing better than a lakers deal that probably includes than 3 of the ball, hart, kuzma, ingram cohort + #4….

      and trading #3 for beal wouldn’t be a good deal…. there needs to be some upside to the roster and it’s reasonable to expect barrett to be a solid starter from the jump….

      barrett and mrob can take the torch from kd and kyrie…. and you add in reinforcements from the mavs picks + our own (if we don’t light them on fire like we did with the knox pick) and we have a good shot at being decent for the rest of the next decade….

    67. Hubert

      and trading #3 for beal wouldn’t be a good deal…. there needs to be some upside to the roster and it’s reasonable to expect barrett to be a solid starter from the jump….

      I don’t have access to the database but I’ve read that SVU numbers indicate Bradley Beal is one of the best three-point-line defenders in the league. He’s also just 25 years old. Him and Kyrie would be like Lillard and McCollum, plus we’d have Durant and Mitch! That’s incredible upside!!

      The trouble is getting it done. Washington isn’t exactly shopping him, and they may not even like Barrett.

    68. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Seriously, have you learned nothing on this blog? Not saying RJ can’t become great, but very little of that article (save a mention of his high free throw rate) is significant evidence of star potential.

      Seriously, I’m trying to unlearn anything I was once foolish enough to consider correct as a result reading stats blogs. Stats have been monumentally important to the sport, but not the stats and all in one numbers many fans focus on. IMO, those are often misleading garbage because they missing things, misvaluing things, and can’t incorporate context and other factors.

      IMO, for an 18 year old, Barrett is an above average play maker for 2/3, a good rebounder for 2/3, defends well enough now and has the body type to be able to switch 3 positions, gets to the FT line a lot, and is efficient around the basket. So basically the entire knock on him is that his FT% and 3P% are below average and that means he has a low TS%.

      I’m totally horrified. I’ve never seen a 18 year get better at shooting.

      You can find flaws with virtually every 18 year old player that gets drafted including Zion. What you are buying is his talent, athleticism, work ethic, basketball IQ, mental strength, body, and skills that you hope are above average for his age overall. Then you go to work developing the package.

      This is a terrific talented young player who by all accounts is terrific young man. I don’t give a shit if he’s shooting 3s worse than Frank the 1st year. I’m worried about years 2, 3, 4, and 5. We got a very good prospect.

    69. Name is Bron - James Bron

      it’s reasonable to expect barrett to be a solid starter from the jump

      Huh? A guy who shot 30% from the 3 in college is gonna be a solid starter next to KD and Kyrie? Do we need a “playmaker” next to them?

      I will show you a subset of my previous query. Here are the 13 freshman tagged as G or G/F who put up a BPM > 7 and FT% less than 68 in more than 250 MP. All but one of them had a better 3FG% than RJ in college. RJ's a terrible shooter. Period. QUERY

    70. Frank

      Really is amazing how stable the Knicks seem right now. Manish Mehta just tweeted out that Christopher Johnson just fired McCagnan. So weird to do that right after the draft.

    71. JK47

      What you are buying is his talent, athleticism, work ethic, basketball IQ, mental strength, body, and skills that you hope are above average for his age overall.

      Sure, but RJ didn’t show many of those things at Duke.

      Talent? That’s a nebulous term. RJ had a reputation coming out of high school that he was a polished player with strong ball skills, and I for one was kind of shocked at how this turned out not to be true. He looked to me like a straight line player who did not have ways to get easy buckets.

      High basketball IQ and mental strength? Again, I didn’t see much of that. He had good assist numbers for a wing but he also turned the ball over a lot and took a lot of low-percentage heroball shots. Basically he created a lot of empty possessions, which is the number one enemy of winning basketball.

      Strength and athleticism? Good,
      but not elite for a high lottery prospect. Doesn’t have sick hops, isn’t lightning quick.

      It seems to me like Barrett is still coasting a bit on his high school rep, and that people are still attributing qualities to him based on a HS scouting report that turned out to be flawed. The hype exceeds the results, and I think there is a very high chance his perceived value right now is higher than what his actual value will turn out to be.

      Which is why he is a perfect trade chip.

    72. Owen

      I don’t think anyone on this board has been excited at any point about getting RJ Barrett. Unless it’s as a trade chip. Wiggins 2.0 is right.

    73. DRed

      Yeah, as someone who thought McCagnan should have been fired a while ago I have to wonder why you’d let the GM you don’t like draft for you one last time before you give him the sack.

    74. ess-dog

      Huh? A guy who shot 30% from the 3 in college is gonna be a solid starter next to KD and Kyrie?

      Oh, you’re right. KAWHI LEONARD (.250 3pt% in college) definitely couldn’t start next to those guys. Your arbitrary cherry-picking means nothing.

      I do think that if you have KD/KI, you generally want to surround them with rebounders/defenders/3-point shooters to win a championship, but it’s also not the best idea to mortgage the team’s future to do so (meaning trade Mitch or RJ/Ja).

      One thing this team hasn’t done in decades is draft the best-available guys and groom them/keep them through a 2nd contract. Maybe we should try it out?

    75. DRed

      I will show you a subset of my previous query. Here are the 13 freshman tagged as G or G/F who put up a BPM > 7 and FT% less than 68 in more than 250 MP. All but one of them had a better 3FG% than RJ in college. RJ’s a terrible shooter. Period. QUERY

      Wasn’t he a forward at Duke?

    76. djphan

      i think it’s absolutely reasonable to expect barrett to be a solid starter…. he’s a good prospect and good prospects generally play pretty well right away…. maybe not allstar caliber but a ws48 >0.075 is not hard to attain for guys as good as barrett….

      he might not… and if you don’t have a high opinion of him to start with then you probably think he’ll suck…. but guys who have been worse than barrett have routinely performed up to starter level quality from the get go….

      ppl shit on jayson tatum coming out on this board…. and im seeing a lot of those guys going back to that poisoned well to shit on barrett… and i’m saying… maybe you should re-think your assumptions on what prospects and rookies do…

    77. ess-dog

      There’s a real chance Memphis takes Barrett, right?

      I for sure think there is. He’s the next Penny Hardaway (hometown hero).

    78. djphan

      if you use a bpm > 6 you get the list i have further up the thread….. don’t draw too many hard conclusions from a narrow dataset….

    79. Early Bird

      Wrong. His WS/40 and BPM were both far below Barrett’s during his first year at San Jose State. His numbers were almost Knoxian.

      Where are you getting these numbers from? Clarke was better than Knox at the following:
      (1) Scoring efficiency
      (2) Rebounding
      (3) Passing
      (4) Steals
      (5) Blocks

      And a number of those weren’t close.

      Clarke was way more efficient, grabbed more rebounds, blocks, and steals than RJ. RJ gets a higher score because points and college players are inefficient.

    80. thenamestsam

      Barrett is (or I guess I should say was) a really good playmaker. Yes, he only averaged 4.3 assists per game, but that’s a very good number in college basketball. He was 5th in the ACC in assists per game. If you pull back a bit he was in the 89th percentile in assist percentage out of all college players. Sure, some of that is probably tossing up lobs to maybe the best college player of all time, but he was also on the floor with a host of dudes who couldn’t shoot.

      There were 15 forwards in the NBA who averaged more than than 4.3 assists per 36. Assuming RJ doesn’t take some massive leap in shooting he’s probably something like Carris LaVert early in his career, except much younger.

      His playmaking and ability to get to the FT line are both really, really nice attributes but I worry that a lack of shooting (if indeed he turns out to be not a good shooter at the next level) really causes those attributes to play down. LeVert is a an interesting comp but Brooklyn runs a very democratic offense – perfect for that kind of secondary ball handler/slasher. I worry about both whether he’d be the same in other types of offenses, and also about what the growth trajectory for that kind of player is. He needs the shooting to grow into a primary ball handler or to increase his off the ball potential. I’d love to see the Knicks run a Brooklyn-esque offense but I can’t see if with our current coaching staff, nor with the FAs we’ve been linked with. If he’s doing a lot of standing around on the wing the problems are only exacerbated.

    81. jazzfunk

      After 46 years, winning a championship becomes the singular goal. Mitch is the only player on the roster who has cemented his relationship with fans. If keeping Mitch means the Knicks lose the AD sweepstakes and a real possibility of contending for a title – do you do it? Should the fact that a championship earned by mercenaries alone is not wholly satisfying matter after 46 years? The New York Rangers shed several members of their homegrown core to acquire proven playoff performers for their ’94 Cup run. As a fan, there was still a healthy mix of developed talent (Leetch, Richter, Kovalev, Zubov, Nemchinov and Karpovtsev) and acquired stars (Messier, Graves, Beukeboom) who became fan favorites. The Knicks may not have that luxury.

    82. Frank

      I don’t think anyone on this board has been excited at any point about getting RJ Barrett. Unless it’s as a trade chip. Wiggins 2.0 is right.

      This comparison has been out there and I just don’t agree. Everything about Wiggins has been about how he’s not competitive, doesn’t work, and is willing to disappear into the background. Everything about RJ is how hyper competitive he is and how great his work ethic is.

      I think being hypercompetitive is an actual skill. The reason Westbrook is great is because while he has supreme athleticism, plenty of dudes have great athleticism (ie. Wiggins) but don’t have that drive to get every ball and compete to the last millisecond. I know this is difficult to quantify, but RJ strikes me as a guy who likes to be in the middle of everything — this is a good thing. Wiggins disappears for games at a time.

    83. Early Bird

      I’m not saying RJ is a terrible prospect, just that he’s not significantly better than many of the guys available at #3. I’d rather take the better athlete and nothing I’ve seen from RJ says dominant athlete. Mediocre athleticism + bad shooting = major question mark.

      Culver, Clarke put up similar or better numbers. Even though they’re both older than Barrett, the numbers they’ve put up since being freshmen indicate that they’re better athletes than Barrett. Barrett had some very uninspiring steal and block totals. Those totals and the highlights I’ve seen indicate that Barrett isn’t the same caliber athlete. I think his defense will be bad.

      Barrett could prove me wrong, and he is a good playmaker. But he’s definitely overrated if people have him as the surefire #3 pick.

    84. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

      We may be just a little harsh with the Barrett assessments. It’s not like he’s Ntilikina/Josh Jackson level bad on offense. He has proven he can score and be a secondary playmaker. And although his game is reminiscent of Melo type inefficiency, he does look to pass. He’s certainly got some growing to do, but I can see why some pundits think he may be the best all around player in the draft. At 3 and sans Zion & Ja, you hafta pick him- unless a winning trade down option is there. I LOVE Clarke, and I’m not so sold on Culver, but I can’t deny they would be great fits with the current projection for free agency. However, if we didn’t have all this cap space, I’d be ecstatic to pick 3rd in this year’s draft.

      Barrett’s a hard guy to project. He, by all accounts, has the work ethic and hoops IQ to mesh with his scoring and playmaking talents- but we were also proven very wrong to bet on Ntilikina’s work ethic and hoops IQ to drive him towards quicker improvement. Granted, Barrett’s floor is waaaaayyyyyyyyy higher than Ntilikina’s, but we’re still banking on his ability to improve upon his weaknesses which seem to be shooting and shot selection.

      I’ll tell ya this much though, I will riot..all by myself..if we select Garland, Culver, Bol, or Reddish at 3

    85. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

      So..back to my original question: How’s Barrett’s defense?

    86. Jack Bauer

      I was traveling yesterday when all this hit so didn’t have a chance to weigh in.
      Not surprised the Knicks didn’t hit the Zion jackpot that was too much luck to expect with this franchise.

      Picking third is not ideal, but it could be a lot worse, I was bracing for the fall to #5. From what I saw of Barrett, the hype seemed to outweigh the reality. He was ok, not great in my opinion. Handles the ball well, shoots a lot ( which was annoying with Zion on his team), and looks stiff in his movements. On the bright side he doesn’t turn 19 until later this year so there is a chance he’ll improve, especially with the Knicks superlative developmental staff ( not really).

      The thing that pissed me off more than anything was the Lakers, moving up from 11 to 4. With a 2.8 % chance of that happening, just of course it happened. The Knicks had a 14 % chance for the #1 pick, but nooooo, we have to suffer more. LA is the luckiest fucking team in the history of team sports. I hope they go down in a LeBron induced flaming wreck, but more likely they’ll get AD and some other good player and be in the WCF next year.

      Boston and the Mavs getting screwed was some good news at least.

    87. swiftandabundant

      So aside from whether people think Barrett is a good prospect or not, what is the game plan going forward?

      Personally, I’m all about keeping it simple. Draft BPA (which I guess is Barret), use the cap space to sign Durant and Kyrie/Kemb/Kawhi and then start the season, see where we are at and make more moves when they present themselves.

      I’m not really in favor of an AD trade because I think its going to take a Melo type trade to get him and I do not want to trade the farm again. I know AD is better than Melo and maybe its just PTSD but I’d rather keep the youth and let them grow with KD and Kyrie being the leaders. If anything I would look to do a smaller trade or two with some of our players/picks to get some really good veteran role players around those two. We can probably expect at least one really good bench/role player veteran to sign on for cheap if we get those two.

    88. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

      @99
      It might be a slight stretch to call KD & Kyrie leaders lol

    89. ess-dog

      I was kidding about Clarke being “Knoxian,” but the fact remains that Barrett had better overall advanced numbers than freshman Clarke, despite Clarke being a post player, and was similar to freshman Culver who had a much smaller role last year. But I agree with you that Barrett’s defense is a concern.

      My feeling is that he’s probably better suited as a point-forward when he bulks up, and that his steal numbers should go up against 3s. Culver is for sure a better defender, but he looked a little like he was on skates when trying to drive with the ball, and he shot poorly from three as well. Maybe they are all close, but I still have Barrett ahead of the other two.

    90. Name is Bron - James Bron

      There’s a real chance Memphis takes Barrett, right?

      Maybe if they think he could be the primary ball handler in the offense.

      Oh, you’re right. KAWHI LEONARD (.250 3pt% in college) definitely couldn’t start next to those guys. Your arbitrary cherry-picking means nothing.

      Uh you realize you’re the one who’s cherry picking, right?

      if you use a bpm > 6 you get the list i have further up the thread….. don’t draw too many hard conclusions from a narrow dataset….

      Let’s take BPM out of the selection criteria and make the query all freshman who played more than 250 minutes and posted a FT% less than 68 and 3FG% < 32 (sorted by bpm). Does this long list inspire any confidence? QUERY

      I don’t understand why a few people are so sure this guy’s a stud when the stats suggest a low probability of success. I’d be more optimistic if his steal % or block % were not so anemic. He looks like a straight line driver who’s got a bit of court vision and not much else.

    91. thenoblefacehumper

      It makes sense that Barrett is polarizing–his statistical profile is all over the place and the eye-test doesn’t clarify much.

      I think it’ll largely come down to his jump shot. If he can turn into an above average shooter, he’ll certainly have a wide array of skills. If not, it’s hard to see him being much better than someone like LeVert. I definitely cannot see him being all that productive as a rookie/sophomore, though, which is why I think he’ll be traded.

    92. abk

      Because it really is fucked that talented children have to sit there and watch some ping pong balls determine their future.

      Imagine campus recruiting day being like that. “Hey, kid, I know you really want to work for Goldman Sachs, and they’re prepared to offer you $500k to start, but here’s the thing: it was determined in the back room that you’re going to have to work for a paper company instead. Good luck. You can change careers in 7 years. Maybe 6 if you’re willing to be an asshole and let everyone drag your name thru the mud.”

      I don’t really agree with this line of thinking (and several people have endorsed it in this thread, including Brian). Consider:

      1. These guys are going into a collectively bargained league. Their negotiating power and assistance is far, far, far higher than the average 19 year old, who has absolutely no one negotiating on their behalf.
      2. The blame, to the extent that there is blame, should primarily rest on the the player’s union. They are (as is common in many organizations and groups) giving young employees the shaft to favor veterans. They could easily argue for many more protections for rookies, but they don’t because it would take money from the vets.
      3. Goldman Sachs vs a paper company? A more apt comparison is Goldman Sachs at $5M in New York or BofA at $4.9M in Charlotte. Boohoo. People move across the world for 1% of that amount. And most US college grads are making $30-50k at-will, maybe being fortunate enough to get health insurance.
      4. These rookies are all getting guaranteed contracts that make them multi-millionaires. Most first rounders will receive more money by around the time they can legally drink than the average American (forget about the rest of the world!) makes in a lifetime. These young men are among the most privileged people on the planet from this point on. For this reason the comparison to Get Out slave/body theft auctions is really quite preposterous.

    93. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I’m real worried about Barrett but I will be shocked if he’s anywhere near Knox or Ntilikina-level badness. I’m more concerned that he’s going to be mediocre and get paid like a star.

    94. yellowboy90

      I’d do a #3 and others for Beal if Mitchell was not included. Beal is a slightly better younger more well rounded C.J. McCollum. If he gets his 3pt shooting back up as he continues to improve his other areas going into his prime years he would become a great player.

    95. Bruno Almeida

      I don’t like Barrett much and I don’t see him being a future star. That said, I’m A LOT happier about drafting him than I was last season when Knox was the pick.

      I think he has good tools, he’s a hard worker and will probably end up being a good starter eventually. He falls for me in the category of a guy who I would probably like to trade for a better player, but I wouldn’t be unhappy with giving him a chance to see if he can develop.

    96. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      1. These guys are going into a collectively bargained league. Their negotiating power and assistance is far, far, far higher than the average 19 year old, who has absolutely no one negotiating on their behalf.

      This is objectively true, but their skills are far more valuable than the average 19-year-old’s.

      2. The blame, to the extent that there is blame, should primarily rest on the the player’s union. They are (as is common in many organizations and groups) giving young employees the shaft to favor veterans. They could easily argue for many more protections for rookies, but they don’t because it would take money from the vets.

      Agreed, but the outcome is still unfairness.

      3. Goldman Sachs vs a paper company? A more apt comparison is Goldman Sachs at $5M in New York or BofA at $4.9M in Charlotte. Boohoo. People move across the world for 1% of that amount. And most US college grads are making $30-50k at-will, maybe being fortunate enough to get health insurance.

      It’s still involuntary. Despite all of the privilege around banking recruitment, applicants are still allowed to choose exactly for whom they work. The only other American enterprises that eliminate prospective-employee choice (AFAIK) are the military and certain law enforcement jobs (like the FBI). Entertainer-athletes shouldn’t be subject to that kind of conscription, no matter the salary.

      For this reason the comparison to Get Out slave/body theft auctions is really quite preposterous.

      Having a bunch of billionaire white men (whose wealth is the end-result of 300-plus years of systemic and institutional exploitation) holding a lottery to decide the labor of black bodies? Is it really that preposterous?

      This argument has been around for a long time, and it has teeth.

    97. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Any scenario in which Beal is a Knick better include two far-superior max players so we’re not the Wizards North. Beal is never, ever going to carry you to a deep playoff run as the best player on your team.

    98. ess-dog

      I’m more concerned that he’s going to be mediocre and get paid like a star.

      That was our Porzingis issue, and I feel like this administration dealt with him correctly, so who knows?

      It’s just funny that someone said months ago that RJ was this team’s destiny, and it looks like now it’s actually happening.

    99. wetbandit

      Well, the lottery system to begin with is on shaky ethical grounds- to not have a say where you end up for many years, on what can be a relatively small contract relative to your production, doesn’t make any sense.

      What would solve it is a completely free market of teams offering contracts and players deciding. Should I take 15M from New Orleans, or 12M from New York? The cap would be enough of a limit for some teams that are doing well.

    100. djphan

      judging by 2 or 3 factors is cherrypicking…. and it is terrible analysis….

      this is you:
      a)’if he’s a bad shooter then he won’t succeed’… that’s false…. pretty obvious why…
      b)’his bad ft shooting means he won’t be a good shooter’… that’s false… i showed why…
      c)’his bad ft shooting and bad 3p shooting means he won’t be a good shooter because look at all these guys who are terrible…. ‘ …. again false… because you’re also looking at all the terrible shooters in college who never had nba careers…. by default that list is going to be filled with terrible players… you filter the list to folks who actually got drafted and you can see why this is false…

      you’re making bad assumptions to reach a bad conclusion… it’s weak…

    101. vincoug

      The real issue with Barrett isn’t that he’s going to be a total bust like Frank and Knox. The bigger problem is that he puts up a bunch of counting stats that don’t actually help the team win but convince everyone that he’s a good player so we overpay him.

    102. ptmilo

      djphan, of course his shooting might improve but you definitely didn’t show why.

      oladipo’s shitty freshman ft year was on like 80 attempts. ditto for kcp and tj. barrett shot 66.5% on 224 attempts, a different universe of sample size. and ingram is a bad example because he hasn’t actually shown he isn’t a problematic shooter. he’s been a terrible nba ft shooter so far. derozan might be a better example, but even that is saying very little. some guys improve but college ft shooting on more than 150 attempts is, on average, informative. it’s a yellow flag.

    103. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      What would solve it is a completely free market of teams offering contracts and players deciding. Should I take 15M from New Orleans, or 12M from New York? The cap would be enough of a limit for some teams that are doing well.

      I would love this. The players would love this. The well-run teams would love this. The inept teams would hate it.

      That was our Porzingis issue, and I feel like this administration dealt with him correctly, so who knows?

      Agreed, but the ACL injury might have saved us from a mistake. It might have also prevented us from seeing the magical 4th year where Porzingis suddenly becomes Dirk. No way to know, but I’m glad he’s gone. If Barrett is healthy but a chucker? All bets are off.

    104. djphan

      and i never contended otherwise…i said barret’s shooting is a concern… but this guy is saying he definitely won’t improve or a ‘low probability’…. that is a bad conclusion…..

      if you don’t like the current crop… let’s go back to the 2000 group of nba’ers….

      dwyane wade
      jason richardson
      andre iguodala
      jason kidd
      grant hill
      ron artest
      trevor ariza

      case closed…

    105. abk

      This is objectively true, but their skills are far more valuable than the average 19-year-old’s.

      Of course. And what’s your point? It’s hard to argue they are being treated like slaves when their working conditions and negotiating power are higher than 99.9% of people. They get way more pay, guaranteed contracts, incredible health insurance, lifetime pensions, etc. The one thing you are bickering about is location, which I would say is insignificant compared to the other things.

      Agreed, but the outcome is still unfairness.

      It’s certainly not ideal from the player’s POV, but I don’t think that necessarily means it’s unfair. They have a union representing them that agrees to this deal. I think that’s fair. It’s also not ideal for owners to guarantee contracts or pensions, yet the deal is fair for them too.

      It’s still involuntary. Despite all of the privilege around banking recruitment, applicants are still allowed to choose exactly for whom they work. The only other American enterprises that eliminate prospective-employee choice (AFAIK) are the military and certain law enforcement jobs (like the FBI).

      Most other organizations dictate where you can live when you work for them. I recently had a friend who was told he had to move from California to Virginia to a new call center. He’s making ~$40k a year. This is extremely common. While he can work for someone else, that will be difficult to do. And while the NBA has a monopoly on basketball in the US, there are plenty of options abroad if they don’t like the NBA’s terms.

      One other important thing to note is how limited the time is they actually have to spend in those cities. The season is only 6 months, and half that time they’re on the road. Even with practice and playoffs, it’s maybe 5 months a year living in a major US city you don’t choose. That’s equivalent to slavery?

    106. abk

      Having a bunch of billionaire white men (whose wealth is the end-result of 300-plus years of systemic and institutional exploitation) holding a lottery to decide the labor of black bodies? Is it really that preposterous?

      Yes!!! In Get Out they essentially killed the people!! You’re comparing that to 5 months a year in a situation so luxurious it’s hard to fathom. And it wasn’t “decided by billionaires”, but rather agreed to by the billionaires and the union that represents the players. This is a far better negotiating process than almost any employee gets.

      One final thing that’s important to consider: the rules may ultimately be in the players’ best interests. Would small market teams capitulate if the best rookies could choose their destinations? Might some teams even just fold if they have no chance of being competitive? Might basketball be less popular nation-wide if parity got even worse? Hard to say, but it is quite plausible that this could be detrimental to league popularity, and hence revenue, and hence player incomes. Would the players be willing to accept a say 10-15% paycut to have total free agency upon entry to the league? Maybe, maybe not. I don’t think this is even so clearly a complete negative for the players though.

    107. Hubert

      1. These guys are going into a collectively bargained league. Their negotiating power and assistance is far, far, far higher than the average 19 year old, who has absolutely no one negotiating on their behalf.

      Actually the kids don’t have anyone negotiating on their behalf, and that’s the problem. They’re not represented in the bargaining. That’s why in every CBA, the rookies get fucked over. The current players limit their salaries so more will go to them, and the owners make it so none of them have a choice.

      It’s impossible to fix unless someone tries to blow it up like Maurice Clarett did in the NFL. But you’re never going to win.

    108. Nick C.

      Isn’t it usually the case with every union, that they negotiate on behalf of their members not future members.?

    109. djphan

      The rookies do get sorta ‘fucked over’….. but the draft is a greater good…. it lets more teams from more markets be competitive and without it it’d be hard to own teams in half the markets the nba is in….

      more teams means more games you can sell… which ups the overall value of the league… and brings in more money to the players overall…

      on a philosophical level … it’s not great… it’s more a problem in the nfl and mlb…. but in the nba the only players who get jerked are really only the top half lotto level players… in the 90s those guys got paid like veterans… but everyone else was making relatively the same… and you can make the argument that they wouldn’t be making nearly as much if it wasn’t for teams in places like charlotte.. new orleans or utah…

    110. nicos

      There’s no way I’d trade the 3rd pick for Covington. He’s coming off of knee surgery (he missed almost 50 games last year) and is at the age where you might expect to see some defensive drop-off anyway. Even the third pick for Covington + 11 might be selling low for the Knicks depending on who’s left on the board.

    111. d-mar

      Any scenario in which Beal is a Knick better include two far-superior max players so we’re not the Wizards North. Beal is never, ever going to carry you to a deep playoff run as the best player on your team.

      Oh, absolutely. If the Knicks make a draft night deal for Bradley Beal, they better sure as fuck know 100% they’re at least getting KD and at most KD and Kyrie.

      But Beal as your third best player would be a damn good outcome. He had an outstanding season, 27-7-7 is nothing to sneeze at.

    112. JK47

      Isn’t it usually the case with every union, that they negotiate on behalf of their members not future members.?

      My wife teaches for LAUSD and they have a strong union. One of the things the district always tries to do when it comes time to negotiate is to grandfather in benefits for current employees but not guarantee them for future employees, and LAUSD always stands firm on this. They realize they will need more members in the future in order to survive.

    113. Name is Bron - James Bron

      if he’s a bad shooter then he won’t succeed’… that’s false…. pretty obvious why…

      If you’re an NBA SG/SF and a lousy outside shooter, you better be super elite like Roberson on defense or bring very strong skills across the rest of your game.

      his bad ft shooting means he won’t be a good shooter’… that’s false… i showed why…

      It’s more the combination of very low 3FG% and very low FT% which is what I provided on my 2nd query. We’re dealing in probability here so citing a few players who did make the leap is not compelling if all of those players constitute something like 5% of the universe. BTW Wade shot 35% and Hill 50% from 3 as freshmen.

      One of your arguments was he shot too many 3’s and his 3FG% would be better if he shot less. So the sample size is too large? That’s a new one. If you could show his spot-up 3FG% was much higher than his off-the-dribble 3FG% and he took a high number of off-the-dribble 3’s, you would have a stronger argument but you haven’t presented those stats.

      you’re also looking at all the terrible shooters in college who never had nba careers…. by default that list is going to be filled with terrible players… you filter the list to folks who actually got drafted and you can see why this is false…

      I gave you the complete list of G and G/F sorted by BPM. You may cut it off wherever you like. The BPM shows players like RJ who were poor FT and 3ball shooters but had a high 2P%. Other than Oladipo there’s not a single player who’s a star. Pope and Hart are OK players but not all-stars. You could argue sample size but I gave you the entire universe available on sports ref.

      I could be persuaded by data. Example 1: What was his FT% in high school? Example 2: What was his catch-and-shoot 3FG%? I just haven’t been shown those stats yet.

    114. Hubert

      There’s no way I’d trade the 3rd pick for Covington.

      If I can’t get a guy like Beal (and yes, Jowles, we only want Beal as support to Kyrie and KD), I would trade Barrett for Covington, Saric, and the 11 pick. I think that’s fair value.

      I don’t know if Minnesota would want two Andrew Wiggins, though.

    115. Hubert

      Think about it: Kyrie + Beal + Durant + Robinson isn’t as good as Steph + Klay + Durant + Green… but it isn’t too far off!

      We won’t three titles, but we might win one.

    116. Bruno Almeida

      I would trade the 3rd pick for Covington, Saric and the 11th for sure, obviously if we know we’re getting the stars in free agency. I’m a fan of Saric, I think he could flourish in the right team, and Covington is solid enough to be a very good 5th starter on a team, even though it would be a bit of an awkward fit with him at the 2 next to Durant and Saric at the forward spots. But I have no idea what Minnesota is doing and I don’t think they do either.

    117. abk

      There’s no way I’d trade the 3rd pick for Covington. He’s coming off of knee surgery (he missed almost 50 games last year) and is at the age where you might expect to see some defensive drop-off anyway. Even the third pick for Covington + 11 might be selling low for the Knicks depending on who’s left on the board.

      Agreed. Surprised people on this site are suggesting it. You should get a much better player than Cov for Barrett, or just hold onto him. His value likely won’t go down after his rookie year. Cov, Saric, and 11 is much more palatable though.

    118. Nick C.

      My wife teaches for LAUSD and they have a strong union. One of the things the district always tries to do when it comes time to negotiate is to grandfather in benefits for current employees but not guarantee them for future employees, and LAUSD always stands firm on this. They realize they will need more members in the future in order to survive.

      That’s a pretty good and farsighted union. Not being a union person leaves me to rely on anecdotes and such. The flip if you will might be the retired NFL players and I think health insurance. Anyway back to basketball

    119. GoNYGoNYGo - Calling for KD

      I accept that RJ has flaws.

      His biggest flaw was playing on the Duke team with Zion and Cam. Did he have to defer to them? Did he need to play in ways he shouldn’t be playing? I think there’s something about that. The good news is that the Knicks can’t be worse than last season. His shot needs improving. Is the possible? On yesterday’s post-lottery MSG-150 Wally pointed to Barrett’s low shot release. It might be a concern.

      Rumors have started now that KD and KI will choose between the Knicks and the Nets. The nets have to unload Crabbe’s salary to make it happen for them. Bleacher Report.

      Life’s never easy as a Knicks fan.

    120. ptmilo

      and i never contended otherwise…i said barret’s shooting is a concern… but this guy is saying he definitely won’t improve or a ‘low probability’…. that is a bad conclusion…..

      okay, maybe i missed the context if you were just shooting down someone who said he definitely won’t improve. but i don’t think it’s cherry picking to worry about rj’s FT% and low steal numbers. these are far from the whole story, but they are, on average, informative. and when you are picking a wing 3rd in the draft you damn well should be worried if those numbers are frowning at you.

      there’s a lot not to like about rj. he can’t finish right. he is fast, athletic and strong, but he doesn’t have anything like derozan’s silky fluidity. he has good vision when he’s on the perimeter, but he’s a bad decision maker when driving, which resulted in way too many turnovers and bad shots for a guy with zion on his team. he is supposed to be a good defender, and he looks like a good defender at the combine, but did he actually look like a good defender on the court? not to me.

      he’s still a legit prospect and he does look like an nba player. but for a #3 pick there’s a lot to be concerned about. i think i’m a lot less grateful than 90% of this board that we landed 3rd.

    121. iserp

      But Beal as your third best player would be a damn good outcome. He had an outstanding season, 27-7-7 is nothing to sneeze at.

      What? More like 25-5-5, although I agree it would be a great 3rd star if we keep Robinson.

      EDIT: The list of players with 27-7-7 is just Westbrook, Lebron, Jordan, Harden, Bird, Havlicek and Robertson, of course nothing to sneeze at!

    122. ClashFan

      What a day for Jets fans. I wanted Mac fired long ago, but the timing and all the drama around it shows how worse the Jets are run these days than the Knicks.

      I still don’t want Kyrie Irving here. KD, fine. Anyway he’ll come with someone else, but not at a max?

    123. Hubert

      Side note:

      There was a moment last night… after Chicago, Phoenix, and Cleveland all got shown… and they showed all 4 teams and we all realized that the odds were in our favor… for a couple of minutes, it felt incredible, like it was finally going to happen.

      I know it hurt after, but that moment was something. At that particular moment, I bet a lot of people threw away the “nothing good will ever happen here” attitude and believed. It sucks that it didn’t work out, but I really think things are turning around here and we can feel it. That Porzingis trade was fucking smart, and it looks like it’s going to pay off this summer with KD and Kyrie. We beat the odds last night. We seem to have a smart GM. I dare say… it’s a good time to be a Knicks fan.

    124. vincoug

      His biggest flaw was playing on the Duke team with Zion and Cam. Did he have to defer to them?

      I don’t know what Duke team you watched but it definitely wasn’t this year’s. Barrett dominated the ball at Duke. He had a usage of 32 compared to 28 and 25 for Zion and Cam. Barrett also took over 18 FGA/game compared to 13 and 12 for Zion and Cam.

    125. Hubert

      I was no match for this guy when it came to Law of Attraction this time:

      Upstairs in the ballroom, Griffin saw Celtics assistant GM Mike Zarren, embraced him and screamed, “What did I tell you?” In the leaguewide general managers meeting earlier that day, Griffin apparently told everyone New Orleans would win the lottery. “I’ve already seen it,” Griffin recalled announcing to the room. “We’re winning this thing.”

      This is exactly the sort of borderline spiritual language Griffin used when his Cavaliers trailed the Warriors 3-1 in the 2016 NBA Finals. He insisted that the Cavaliers were going to rally and win. If you looked at him funny, Griffin just stared back at you, dead serious.

      But I’m telling you, man, I’ve seen it, too. It’s coming.

    126. Hubert

      God, this is annoying AF, though. This guy has won 4 out of the 5 lotteries he’s been in, and now he thinks he’s a god:

      Griffin echoed that during a brief chat with ESPN.com after the televised reveal. “We can be Oklahoma City with Paul George,” he said. “We can hold onto [Davis] and let him see what we really are. [Winning the lottery] changes how quickly he can buy into it. It gets us closer. Every day, maybe he believes a little more. As much as elite talent likes to play with elite talent, I can’t imagine any elite player in his prime looking at our situation and saying to himself, ‘There’s a better grouping to play for’ than ours.”

      I really, really hope this is how it plays out:

      1. Davis sticks to his guns.
      2. Zion pulls an Elway/Eli and says “trade me, I’ll never play for you.”

      It’s what the league deserves for shoving this shit down the throat of its players and fans.

    127. wetbandit

      Can we actually discuss the numbers on Barrett before writing him off? So far, the similarities between him and Wiggins are (1) heralded #1 out of high school, (2) poor outside shooting.
      Barrett numbers (vs Wiggins)
      fg%: .454 (.448)
      3pt%: .308 (.341)
      2pt%: .529 (.493)
      reb/40: 8.6 (7.1)
      ast/40 4.9 (2.7)
      to/40 (2.8)
      usg: 32.2 (26.3)
      ast% 23.5 (9.2)
      TS: 532 (563)
      WS/40: 194 (170)
      PER 23.3 (21.4)

      Aside from being a poor outside shooter, Barrett isn’t a bad prospect. That’s not saying he’s good, but this is a wing who rebounds extremely well, passes extremely well (his assist numbers prove it and his film is exceptional in that regard), gets to the rim or the foul line a lot, has a good percentage from 2, and (granted I don’t know how to use analytics to evaluate defense) has been touted as a good defender.

      Does a wing HAVE to be a good 3 point shooter? And if he becomes decent, isn’t he a good player?

    128. djphan

      that dude was using a query filtering for college players who shoot less than a certain % from 3p and the line…. and based off of it returning very few nba ‘successes’…. barrett’s going to be bad…. that is an unfathomably bad way to look at it….

      yes he’s not a great shooter… his defensive numbers are on the low side…. he might be the SF version of jahlil okafor…. those are risks… but there are risks with any draft pick…. i like culver better… i have been on record the whole year that he’s been better than barrett…. but that does not mean barrett’s chopped liver either….

      you put barrett’s back into any other draft… and he’s very likely a top 5 pick in any one of them… and he is a slightly better prospect than kawhi or pierce or george or jefferson or iguodala was…. i realize that most can’t be happy with that… but those are solid players… and it’s not too hard to imagine barrett realizing his potential…. this isn’t kevin knox.. or harrison barnes…. or andrew wiggins… and if you keep that perspective you should be pretty happy with him…

    129. wetbandit

      Corrections: passes well *when he wants to, which was the latter half of the season; and, has a *decent* 2pt%, not good.

    130. ptmilo

      There was a moment last night… after Chicago, Phoenix, and Cleveland all got shown… and they showed all 4 teams and we all realized that the odds were in our favor… for a couple of minutes, it felt incredible, like it was finally going to happen.

      yep, i was even stupid enough to do the math during the commercial. if you assume zion is worth 10X, Ja 3X, RJ 2X and the 4th pick X (highly debatable to say the least), our equity during the top four commercial break was: 50% * 10X = 5X + ~32% * 3X = .96X + ~15% X 2X = .3X + 3% * X = .03X = 6.29X. But we walked out with 2X. boo.

    131. JK47

      Hubert, I want to believe. But I dunno. Until I see the KD/Kyrie press conferences I’m assuming Lucy is going to pull the football away again.

      I’ve just seen the movie a LOT of times at this point.

    132. d-mar

      But Beal as your third best player would be a damn good outcome. He had an outstanding season, 27-7-7 is nothing to sneeze at.

      What? More like 25-5-5, although I agree it would be a great 3rd star if we keep Robinson.

      EDIT: The list of players with 27-7-7 is just Westbrook, Lebron, Jordan, Harden, Bird, Havlicek and Robertson, of course nothing to sneeze at!

      My bad, for Beal it’s actually 26-6-5, with a TS% of .581. Still pretty damn good, and an above average defender also.

    133. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Fwiw, college 3Pt% is extremely noisy and pretty much unprojectable but for the most efficient high volume shooters. I wouldn’t use it as a way to question Barrett’s overall shooting ability. He has a good 2 pt%, and a questionable FT%. We simply don’t know if he’s going to be a good shooter, and combined with his other question marks (shot selection, low steals, only medium athleticism) it makes picking him at 3 tough. That said, all the models I’ve seen (only two or three so far) have him ahead of Culver, and that serves as a kind of tie breaker to me.

      But looking at Zion’s projected outcome makes me want to crawl into a hole and never come out:

      https://twitter.com/JacobEGoldstein/status/1116412886501527552?s=19

    134. Hubert

      Hubert, I want to believe. But I dunno. Until I see the KD/Kyrie press conferences I’m assuming Lucy is going to pull the football away again.

      Funny you mention that, because yesterday I felt like Linus foolishly expecting the arrival of the Great Pumpkin.

    135. DRed

      For the record I don’t want us to draft Barrett. I’d try like hell to trade the pick. But I don’t think he’s going to be Wiggins level bad, and there’s a chance he might be a good player

    136. DRed

      I could be persuaded by data. Example 1: What was his FT% in high school? Example 2: What was his catch-and-shoot 3FG%? I just haven’t been shown those stats yet.

      I’m on my phone, but based on memory his HS FT shooting was worse than his college FT shooting. He shot about 85~% of his 3 point attempts off passes

    137. Owen

      Barrett’s perceived value appears to be higher than his projected value. I trust the Knicks FO to exploit that opportunity.

    138. geo

      the thing i’ll remember the most last night was the rapidity with which i needed to drink and smoke to get in the proper frame of mind for the whole affair…had to pause the dvr for a bit to ensure i could indulge a little further before the top 4 picks were read…

      was ecstatic we didn’t get hosed like the bulls, suns and cavs…was extremely relieved we didn’t get stuck with pick 4…then felt a bit disappointed we didn’t get 1 or 2…

      all in all – better than i expected…

      maybe i’m naive, but, it seems the days of rampant tanking could be past…

      i like the line of thinking that’s going on – why limit ourselves to simply looking at a trade for AD…beal would not be so bad to have on our team…especially if we get to keep mitchrob…

      at this point though – if the KD/kyrie rumors are true – adding AD would make us a really solid team with damn near about anyone else on the roster…

      for the pels – running out DSJ, RJ, Zion, mitchrob, and whoever is left, plus picks from moving some other pieces – would be a nice way to get a new era kicked off down there in the big easy…

      at this stage, what else can the wiz do but re-build…

      next up is the draft on june 20, and, then free agent signings on june 30…

      now that this period is past, last of the quotes for a while…i kind of like this particularly secular perspective…

      We come from a dark abyss, we end in a dark abyss, and we call the luminous interval life.

    139. JK47

      Barrett’s perceived value appears to be higher than his projected value. I trust the Knicks FO to exploit that opportunity.

      Yeah, I feel exactly the same. Well, except the part about how you “trust” the Knicks FO to exploit the opportunity. I kind of expect them to fuck it up. But that’s cynical old JK47 for you

    140. rama got that Fizdale Magic

      I don’t know if Minnesota would want two Andrew Wiggins, though.

      Mo’ Wiggins, mo’ winnins…

    141. Hubert

      maybe i’m naive, but, it seems the days of rampant tanking could be past…

      This seems to be the take today. But consider:

      the teams that won two more games than us fell all the way to 5 & 6. The team with the 4th worst record is picking 7th. There’s going to be a lot of teams who will think “I better secure the worst record so I’m guaranteed not to fall further than 5.”

      Also, New Orleans, Memphis, and LA all shut it down and tanked hard down the stretch. That worked out well.

      We probably will never see another Process, though. It’s no longer as logical. That’s really all the league ever wanted. They didn’t like being shown up for their stupid system. That is why I hope Zion refuses to play for New Orleans and AD demands a trade. Shove it up their ass.

    142. The Infamous Cdiggy

      Note to self:
      Discussing (well, debating) basketball with Laker fans = taking an “L”.

      I’m in an office here with a bunch of coworkers, discussing the draft. I’m immediately dogged because they know I bleed Knicks. I told them they got lucky landing the #4 pick. Then they start in with their favorite anti-Knick highlight moments. I counter with THE John Starks’ dunk. One of them brought up Reggie Miller’s choke gesture as one of their favorite moments. I immediately said “YO FUCK REGGIE MILLER!!!!”. The other was surprised that I could remember that far back and joked how emotionally scorned I was over it. The others in the group chided in with the requisite #lolknicks banter.

      Laker fans will NEVER understand our strife and passion. I don’t even hate or dislike the Lakers, but their fans… @&%@#!*

    143. chriskZIPCODE

      My thoughts last night, best summed up in Haiku:

      Damn it Damn it Fuck
      Fuck Damn it damn it Fuck Fuck
      Damn it. Thanks, Patrick

    144. Dough Chew [dolan pls]

      Marc Stein:

      Zion Williamson has yet to sign with an NBA agent to theoretically leave open the possibility he returns to school. The Leverage Playoffs are underway, too

      The plot thickens?

    145. jazzfunk

      If anyone can control the trajectory of his career from day one – it is Zion. The Eli move is definitely on the table.

    146. d-mar

      Has any college basketball player actually ever pulled an Eli? And what if he says “if you draft me I’m going back to Duke” and they call his bluff, doesn’t that mean everyone else moves up in the draft and we lose out on RJ?

    147. Dough Chew [dolan pls]

      @161

      Yeah like as a human being, I’d like to see Zion go back to school if he doesn’t want to go to NO. But it would probably be bad for the Knicks.

      It puts Reddish back into play lol

    148. BigBlueAL

      My biggest thing about winning the lottery is drafting Zion would’ve made this an A+ offseason regardless of what happened during free agency. With Zion the front office could’ve stayed patient if they missed out on KD and sold the future with Zion and the draft picks and everybody, including the media, would’ve been on board. The future just cause of Zion would’ve been bright.

      But now I fear if they miss out on KD they will feel compelled to do something stupid cause just drafting Barrett and not signing anybody significant they would be criticized for having an awful offseason and how tanking backfired. I feel like drafting Zion would’ve basically been a safety net that allowed the front office to be patient and truly stick to rebuilding and that might not be the case anymore.

    149. Scorpio Dragon

      You know, if Zion really wants to come to the Knicks that badly, I say more power to him. By not signing with an agent he gave himself some serious leverage.

    150. Scorpio Dragon

      @161

      I’m not sure how it works exactly, by not signing with an agent he gave himself an out. I don’t think calling this bluff works in the Pels favor. They draft him and he goes back, they only keep his rights for the year then he can go right back into the next draft. They would completely lose out on drafting any other player from this draft. The Pelicans can’t afford to do that.

      It would be a very interesting exercise there.

    151. nicos

      Zion has to withdraw from the draft by May 29th to retain his college eligibility. He can withdraw later (June 10th) but wouldn’t be able to return to Duke. If he told NO tomorrow that the only team he would play for is the Knicks or else he’d go back to school then the Knicks would have a couple of weeks to work out a deal to swap picks. What would you be willing to give up to swap three for one? My guess is it’d take Mitch + the unprotected Mavs pick and that’s a pretty steep price.

    152. Ntilakilla

      Hypothetical time: let’s say that Zion does force Griffin’s hand to trade him to the Knicks for the 3rd overall pick and whatever assets we have. Would you give MitchRob as part of the deal if it cinched it for us?

    153. heavencent35

      Draft pcks are exciting, i hope we dont deal our future picks.
      Reg RJ Barret, he is a consensus number 1 before the season started. May i know why his stock drop to number 3?

    154. heavencent35

      Why not hit the jackpot by trading number 3, plus our pick next year and maybe 2 more picks and mitch, Knox and even dotson to NO for number and AD.

    155. Bruno Almeida

      @169

      Man, it would be very difficult to part with Mitch, but if it’s the 3rd plus Mitch, Knox and one of the Dallas picks I would do it. I’d rather trade literally everyone else plus those picks and keep Mitch, but if New Orleans won’t budge I’d probably do it.

      I love Mitch to death but he’s a guy who probably tops out as the 3rd, or maaaybe 2nd best player in a very good team. Zion can be the number 1 guy.

    156. ess-dog

      I fear that Mitch + Barrett + Knox + draft picks for Davis will make too much sense for the Pels, and then we’ll be in the Pels’ position with Davis, trying to scrape a team together for him.

    157. Hubert

      If Zion went back to school, even knowing it could hurt the Knicks, I would be fucking thrilled. Good for him. Please do it. Please let’s see AD and Zion bend the Pelicans over. This is a team that only exists so owners could get an expansion fee and has already wasted 12 hall of fame years from Chris Paul and Anthony Davis. Please fuck them over.

      And no fucking way do you give up Mitch if Zion puts New Orleans in a vice grip. You offer Barrett, Frank, and Dallas’ unprotected pick. That’s it. Because that’s more than they’ll get if he goes back to duke.

    158. Hubert

      I think I want to see David Griffin have to deal with trading the #1 pick and AD bc both of them refuse to play in New Orleans more than I want to see the Knicks get RJ Barrett over Darius Garland.

    159. ess-dog

      LOL when you put it that way, I kind of agree. But I don’t think Zion is the type to throw his weight around that way. But shit, he could pull out on the day of the draft and go play abroad for a year.

      The fact is, he’s already more marketable than most NBA players already. Why go back to school when you could go play in a massive market for a year? Shanghai, Beijing, Istanbul… or Madrid or Rome if he wants to do a euro year.

    160. TheOakmanCometh

      Zion refusing to play for anyone would be bad for the league. Even if it helps us, I hope it doesn’t happen. I don’t want to win that way.

    161. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I just listened to pom pom for like three hours, convinced it’s the best “pop” album of this aged decade

      Also fuck the pelicans thrice

    162. nicos

      The fact is, he’s already more marketable than most NBA players already. Why go back to school when you could go play in a massive market for a year? Shanghai, Beijing, Istanbul… or Madrid or Rome if he wants to do a euro year.

      It’d be interesting to see what would happen if he withdrew from the draft and then in September tried to sign overseas- I’m guessing the NBA would put pressure on the China/Euro leagues not to sign him (and I’m sure neither would want to cross the NBA- not even for Zion) if there’s not some sort of rule to prevent it already.

    163. JK47

      Thanks Jowles. I’m super proud of it and it was really fun and rewarding to make. At that particular time Ariel was getting away from the idea that Haunted Graffiti was a band and a democracy, and had taken over again more as a benevolent dictator. So it became kind of an expanded cast of characters, and a lot of different combinations of musicians working together. There was a core group of about 10 people who worked on that record a lot and it always brings a smile to my face to hear everybody’s contributions.

      It feels like a lifetime kind of achievement to have worked on a project like that. People are going to be enjoying that record for many years.

    164. Hubert

      It’d be interesting to see what would happen if he withdrew from the draft and then in September tried to sign overseas- I’m guessing the NBA would put pressure on the China/Euro leagues not to sign him (and I’m sure neither would want to cross the NBA- not even for Zion) if there’s not some sort of rule to prevent it already.

      I would imagine he just goes back to Duke and let’s Nike keep paying his grandmother or however it works there.

      Zion refusing to play for anyone would be bad for the league. Even if it helps us, I hope it doesn’t happen. I don’t want to win that way.

      You think any Broncos or Giants felt even a smidge of regret when Elway and Eli won them Super Bowls?

      Also, who do you mean by the league? The cartel of 30 owners? They’d be mad, sure. But is it really bad for the people who watch the league? You know what was bad for the league? Wasting 12 years of Chris Paul and Anthony Davis in New Orleans. Getting Zion to a real team – and I don’t even care if it’s us, frankly, just get him out of New Orleans – is *great* for the league.

    165. Z-man

      I totally disagree with the Goldman Sachs analogy. the NBA is an association with a vested interest in competitive balance. It can’t be compared to an autonomous corporation who would be thrilled if its competition went under. Goldman does not share revenue with its competition to prop them up. It’s ludicrous to make comparisons regarding the employer-employee relationship. Sure, we and Zion got screwed by the lottery, sure, teams will still tank , and sure, there might be better ideas out there. But discouraging tanking while accomplishing balance while penalizing mismanagement while ensuring profitability is a tall order.

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