Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Wednesday, October 18, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.10.02)

  • [NYDN] Kristaps Porzingis ready to live up to expectations with Knicks
    (Sunday, October 01, 2017 10:53:07 AM)

    Porzingis is now the center of the Knicks’ universe.

  • [NYDN] Tim Hardaway Jr. focused on taking Knicks to playoffs
    (Sunday, October 01, 2017 10:24:17 AM)

    Returning Knick Tim Hardaway Jr.’s intentions are pure, but this comment immediately conjures up images of Jim Mora’s famous rant.

  • [NYPost] Tim Hardaway Jr. wants to make everyone forget huge contract
    (Sunday, October 01, 2017 7:57:07 PM)

    When Tim Hardaway Jr. was introduced to the estimated 4,000 fans inside the Garden for Sunday’s Knicks open practice/intrasquad scrimmage, he heard as loud a cheer as there was for Kristaps Porzingis. If fans still are irate over the contract (four years, $71 million) Hardaway was given in July, they also seemed happy he’s back…

  • [NYPost] Porzingis is opening his own wallet to stay healthy this year
    (Sunday, October 01, 2017 10:22:43 AM)

    When it comes to staying healthy, every little bit of preparation helps in the eyes of Kristaps Porzingis. Porzingis, 22, is trying something new. His longtime Spanish physiotherapist will live in New York for this season, as The Post reported Friday. Porzingis indicated his physio will travel to road games, too — on Porzingis’ dime….

  • [NY Newsday] Tim Hardaway Jr. expects to help get Knicks to playoffs
    (Sunday, October 01, 2017 10:41:02 PM)

    The last time fans at Madison Square Garden saw Tim Hardaway Jr. in a Knicks uniform, he was making $16 million less a year than what the Knicks will be paying him this year.

  • 114 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.10.02)

    1. Totes McGoats Makes 18mil For 14ppg

      Wow..non basketball related but…

      I woke up with my heart in my throat today. My ex and sons live in Vegas. One in college and one a Junior in high school. You never know when somethin crazy is gonna happen and that’s why you must cherish what you have- warts and all. You all have no idea how panic stricken and stressed I was when I tried to contact my sons and their mother, and then how relieved I was when they picked up on the first ring to tell my they are in bed and fine. I kinda don’t wanna go to work today lol. Just..wow..times are CRAZY

      Just one thought on our Knicks before I pewwnnn..
      I’m actually more anxious to see how TH2 looks than Ntilikina, KP, and Willy. If he is playing well on both ends- even if he averages no more than 15 ppg- his contract is worth it. I hope that he can get a stat line this season (too manic this morning to think of advanced stats) of 15ppg 4rpg 4apg 1.5 spg. Low bar, but he hasn’t done that yet. If he can get those numbers then Mills will have shrewdly signed a young FA truly on the upswing .

      Anyway..that’s all I wanted to share. Be good be safe..all that good stuff

    2. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      The one thing I’m worried about is Porzingis isoball. I don’t want that to become a thing where he’s a strong-side bailout option instead of a P&R dive man.

    3. Frank

      What horrible news this morning out of Vegas. There are some seriously deranged people in this country and this world. Hope everyone’s friends and family are safe this morning.

      On a far less important but more enjoyable front — I managed to watch some of the Facebook stream of the scrimmage yesterday. Besides the horrible video quality (seriously, how about some HD quality?!), it really seemed like THJ and Ntilikina were the stars. For all our talk about Ntilikina starting as a 2, it looked pretty much he was starting and playing PG only yesterday. Looked really smooth with the ball and seemed to make the right pass as far as I could tell. Still not clear how much he will be able to get to the rack. He definitely doesn’t have the John Wall explosiveness, but with his size and length he probably doesn’t need it to get where he’s going.

      Kanter is going to a load on the offensive end. He is just great around the basket. If he can just be the 80th worst big man on defense rather than the actual worst big man on defense, he could be a semi-useful piece.

      I sort of feel like this team might just surprise, much like my Jets have so far. I still don’t think they’ll win more than 35 games, but they might be pretty fun to watch.

      Starting McDermott is an interesting choice. Could be a lot of high-scoring games. Ntilikina’s perimeter D and THJ’s supposed improved defensive awareness will be key.

    4. Totes McGoats Makes 18mil For 14ppg

      @2..

      Indeed! Though I wouldn’t mind as much if it came from the Center position.

      @3..

      That starting 5 should be a good offense. If Kanter locks down the starting C, and KP checks C’s on defense the defense shouldn’t *knocks on wood* be as bad as expected as Kanter lost weight and already guards PF’s better, plus McBuckets still can improve on defensw as well. I don’t he will be worse defensively that Melo was. Well..maybe he will because Melo rebounds better. But we need him to be able to check 3’s well enough to stay on the floor over TH2 or Lee at SF because he still opens the floor and TH2 & Lee are too small to guard most SF’s. I can’t wait to see what they look like against real competition.

    5. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      Starting McDermott makes a ton of sense to me. He’s an excellent shooter and can put the ball on the deck to attack close outs. I’d go Lee/McDermott with Tim off the bench because he’s the best ball handler of the three, but the Knicks have so much money invested in TH2 that he’ll likely start. The one thing I worry about with McDermott and Hardaway Jr is that they won’t do enough rebounding, defending, and passing to be as productive as we would need.

    6. stratomatic's love hate relationship with The Knicks because of Melo is over

      If he can just be the 80th worst big man on defense rather than the actual worst big man on defense, he could be a semi-useful piece.

      lmao

      I’m going crazy waiting for this season to start.

    7. johnno

      @3 — re: Kanter’s defense — a few weeks ago (in a string about Hardaway’s defense), someone posted a link to a site that had DBPM stats. According to that stat, the worst defensive big man in the league last year (by quite a bit) was Karl Anthony Towns. Not sure what (if anything) to make of that, but I thought that it was interesting.

    8. er

      Derrick Rose admits he played “revenge basketball” last season. The now Cavaliers said he was trying to get his and prove the doubters wrong rather than playing team basketball (facilitating). Via NBC Sports

      LOL and Phil was like yea. I want more.

      Sorry I had to repost this from the last thread hahaha

    9. er

      On a serious note. I’m done “praying” for victims of gun massacres. We have a fucking government that refuses to make laws to stop this thanks to the nra and other gun nuts and lobbies. I’d just like to say a hearty fuck you to all of them.

    10. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Things that make sense:

      Ban ARs and other similar semi automatic and automatic weapons

      Increase the amount of hurdles required to get guns

      Eliminate or heavily regulate gun shows.

      But you won’t see any of these things done. If it didn’t happen after Newtown, it’s not going to now.

      Also: it’s funny/sad how white mass shooters aren’t called domestic terrorists and that the presumption is always that you can only be a terrorist if you’re a Muslim.

    11. er

      “Also: it’s funny/sad how white mass shooters aren’t called domestic terrorists and that the presumption is always that you can only be a terrorist if you’re a Muslim.”

      Welcome to America in 2017:

      1.Donald Trump is president
      2. Most white Americans are more against a non violent protest than are upset about police violence against blacks and over civil rights of blacks.
      3. We are all at the mercy of the over 400 million guns (more guns than people) in america at anytime.
      4. Ignorance runs rampant

    12. stratomatic's love hate relationship with The Knicks because of Melo is over

      We have a fucking government that refuses to make laws to stop this thanks to the nra and other gun nuts and lobbies. I’d just like to say a hearty fuck you to all of them.

      The republicans HAVE to be the ones to fix it because the gun advocates will never in a million years trust the long term motivations of democrats that say they just want sensible restrictions, background checks, etc.. It’s 100% on the republicans to gain trust and do sensible things. I have nothing else to say.

    13. Ntilakilla

      This country is not run by voting public choice, its run by the special interest groups. The health insurance lobby, big pharmaceuticals, banks, investment firms, defense contractors, credit card companies, high-tech firms, energy conglomerates, and yes the NRA/gun manufacturers are all listened to instead of the public majority opinion. They have the money and we don’t. It is sick what rampant capitalism is doing to our politics, culture, society, and environment. Until that problem is fixed, it won’t significantly matter who the president is because he/she will be largely powerless to change the problems facing the country alone against all of their money and influence.

    14. bobneptune

      Also: it’s funny/sad how white mass shooters aren’t called domestic terrorists and that the presumption is always that you can only be a terrorist if you’re a Muslim.

      There is a little difference sometimes.

      Mc Vay in OKC certainly was a domestic terrorist because he blew up people/Gubmint buildings for a political /religious end. Obama’s buddy Wm. Ayers and his lovely blushing bride were domestic terrorists because they went way outside of the process for a political end.

      They were all white and rightfully called domestic terrorists.

      The guy who wasted all those kid on the UT campus years back was a deranged fuck if I remember correctly, not a domestic terrorist (no political or religious motivation). Those high school kids who wore goth outfits and attacked the movie theater in Colorado were sick, unbalanced kids who never should have been near automatic weapons, not domestic terrorists.

      Multiple homicides are not default acts of domestic terrorism unless their aim is to spread fear for a political or religious reason, IMO.

      I honestly hope this guy was some deranged mentally ill guy not a member of either the far right or far left…. the country doesn’t need that bullshit.

    15. stratomatic's love hate relationship with The Knicks because of Melo is over

      The problem is not free markets as intended. It’s that we don’t have free markets. The capitalists are using government and its institutions to benefit themselves at the expense of others.

      There’s a quote “attributed” to Willie Sutton.

      Why do you rob banks?

      Ans: Because that’s where the money is.

      It’s no different in Washington or at the state or city level.

      If you can buy elections, you can control corrupt politicians. If you can control corrupt politicians you can have laws written that benefit yourself. And the more money and power under the control of government, the more you can benefit or outright steal for yourself.

    16. stratomatic's love hate relationship with The Knicks because of Melo is over

      Multiple homicides are not default acts of domestic terrorism unless their aim is to spread fear for a political or religious reason, IMO.

      This is correct.

      The difference between terrorism and a deranged individual is whether or not it is part of an organized or loosely organized political effort.

    17. er

      Well we don’t know his motivations yet but I don’t agree with that definition regardless.

      I always think of the Klan and the terror they inflicted in the south by snatching people out of homes and lynching them. Unless if you think white supremacy and black subjugation aa political cause then I agree

    18. bobneptune

      Well we don’t know his motivations yet but I don’t agree with that definition regardless.

      I always think of the Klan and the terror they inflicted in the south by snatching people out of homes and lynching them. Unless if you think white supremacy and black subjugation aa political cause then I agree

      You are entitled to believe whatever definition you please but if you don’t think the KKK was motivated by the political/religious motivation of “Keeping America Pure for White Anglo Saxon Christians”, I don’t know what to say…..

      I mean this is particularly poor example, IMO.

    19. DRed

      I wonder if Kanter’s better defense at the 4 is a result of him being better defending forwards or just a result of him being on the floor with a good defensive center. It just seems odd intuitively that he’d be better guarding more mobile players.

    20. Ntilakilla

      Very well put. America is run like the wu tang clan.

      Cash Rules Everything Around Me

      CREAM

      Ironically, WTC is the favorite music group of Martin Shkreli, the Pharma Bro hedge fund manager who buys the patents on life-saving drugs to jack up the price on the customers who need them to live. Its pure gangsterism.

    21. er

      “But if you don’t think the KKK was motivated by the political/religious motivation of “Keeping America Pure for White Anglo Saxon Christians”, I don’t know what to say…..

      I mean this is particularly poor example, IMO.”

      I know what the kkk is. My thinking was that all of the murders were not political. Some were just grudges or something petty, not anything regardin the “greater cause”

      Maybe I worded it poorly

    22. Owen

      Sounds like Kanter is a best shaper too, lost a lot of weight in the offseason. He actually said that he felt like he needed a bra at the end of last season, which seems crazy for an NBA player to admit, but there it is. Going to be interesting how that working out works out, sometimes those big transformations have funny results. I hope he doesn’t lose his edge on the o-boards with the belly.

    23. DRed

      Based solely on 4 seconds of practice footage I watched on my phone last night he’s still very slow on defense.

    24. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      The point was less that all mass shooters are terrorists and more that there is an obvious double standard where any mass killer with any relation to Islam (or other disfavored ideologies in America) whatsoever (no matter how tenuous) is presumed to be a terrorist; this isn’t so with anyone white–they’re just considered “deranged” or “mentally ill” (which is also stereotypical and offensive to the mentally ill, considering that mentally ill people are, in fact, less interpersonally violent than the average population.) No one in the media called Dylan Roof a terrorist, despite his being obviously racist. That double standard should be ended.

    25. Frank

      interesting tidbit from cleaningtheglass.com –> Patrick Patterson’s 3 year 16.4MM contract was the biggest FA contract ever given by Presti to another team’s FA. Amazing.

    26. english_knick

      Presti has done such a great job at OKC. They’ve been competitive for years in a small market while generally not overpaying FAs.

      But the Harden deal is just such a huge blip. Harden, Dutrant, Westbrook and Ibaka could have been as much a homegrown dynasty as Curry, Thompson and Green. Now they’re entering luxury tax purgatory for an older and less talented core. All front offices make some mistakes and in my view OKc grades out well ahead of the curve overall. But wow – that’s a killer.

    27. GoNyGoNyGo

      I hate that I have to chime in about politics again. I see both sides to the gun regulations argument but nobody should be able to stock an arsenal of weapons like that or buy assault weapons or have silencers. When I read and hear from the NRA after a mass shooting like the one yesterday, I want to put them in front of a firing squad. It’s greed that motivates them. That makes them evil.

      @27 – I also read about Kanter losing weight in the off-season. The pre-season hasn’t even begun. Let’s see if he can approach being at least average defensively. IMO his defense is why he wouldn’t start.

      Looking at the roster, I see a lot of balance (meaning a lot of average players). It’s going to be difficult to come up with a starting 5. At this point only KP seems assured of a starting role. I like this.

    28. bobneptune

      No one in the media called Dylan Roof a terrorist, despite his being obviously racist. That double standard should be ended.

      not to go round and round with this…. but I forgot this putzes name and Googled it. The first listing was a wiki article with no mention of domestic terrorism. The second listing was:

      https://www.gq.com/story/dylann-roof-making-of-an-american-terrorist

      and also on page one:

      https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/dylann-roof-death-penalty/484274/

      However, the NY Times and New Yorker labeled him a “racist white supremacist” so, you are partly correct.

    29. Z-man

      Ian Begley
      ESPN Staff Writer

      Frank Ntilikina (sore left groin) didn’t take part in all of practice today. Severity of his injury is unclear. Ron Baker (ankle) didn’t practice.

    30. Donnie Walsh

      I have never agreed with ER when it comes to basketball, but I agree with everything he’s said here on this thread. Thanks for stating it.

      (Btw, I know this is a Knicks blog and all, but I find that I care very little about the Knicks and pro-sports these days. Still, I come here out of habit and read most of the threads. I have to say I do like it when the subject veers from basketball to current events because I feel like I know you guys, and respect your opinions, and like to see how they get applied to the actual issues facing this country (not just about Phil Jackson and Carmelo Anthony:)

    31. Bruno Almeida

      @28

      Very well said. It’s a sad narrative in my opinion, as someone from outside of the USA but who has been studying american society for quite a while, to see the “these sick fucks” argument coming up all the time. Murderers are sick people, just kill them and everything goes away.

      I live in Brazil, where murder is, so to say, more widespread than most places, and this over-simplistic narrative is getting stronger and stronger here too. All it does is ignore structural and systematic relations of power that affect people in multiple ways, while targeting the same usual demographics as the cause for a phenomenon that has its roots in societal life a lot more than in some incapacity to be “normal”.

    32. Ntilakilla

      I live in Brazil, where murder is, so to say, more widespread than most places, and this over-simplistic narrative is getting stronger and stronger here too. All it does is ignore structural and systematic relations of power that affect people in multiple ways, while targeting the same usual demographics as the cause for a phenomenon that has its roots in societal life a lot more than in some incapacity to be “normal”.

      All people have to do is see City of God to get the point – which, btw, is Brazil’s greatest contribution to popular culture in the 21st century. Slumdog Millionaire was the stupid, dumbed down version.

    33. ClashFan

      I live in the South where the gun culture is pretty strong, and there’s really no reasoning with most people on gun control. You get stuff like bumper-stickers that say, “If you ban guns, only outlaws will have guns.” And, “Guns don’t kill, people do” type thinking that ignores the evidence that guns, esp. semi-automatic ones, are easy to get tools that allow people to kill rapidly, at great range, and with great efficiency.

      I’ve actually had people say to me, “Are you going to ban bows and arrows and knives, too?” As if those items could kill in the volume that any gun can. And this is not just from “rednecks.” Lots of simplistic but emotionally powerful thinking rules.

      Lots of people down here think that more gun ownership and open carry is the solution. Yesterday’s events show the main flaw in that thinking. And, that any gun control is just another domino toward the gov’t taking away all guns to suppress all our freedom.

      Anyways, back to the Knicks. Hopefully everyone stays healthy for the season.

    34. Bruno Almeida

      @38

      We were just talking about The Wire and how brilliant it was, City of God is Brazil’s The Wire, so to say. City of Men, which is a more light-hearted series made by the same directors is also pretty damn good (it has a darker movie adaptation too if I remember well).

    35. Grocer

      this over-simplistic narrative is getting stronger and stronger here too.

      We’ve built a society where violence is talked about publicly and frequently as not just an answer to problems but a good one or as “the only thing they understand.” People are paying attention and internalizing that. The guy in Vegas, the kid last week who stabbed his bully, the driver in Charlottesville. We’ve created a society where they think violence against others is the only solution because we keep telling each other that violence is a good solution. From the politicians who advocate war and bombing campaigns to solve foreign policy problems to street level conversations where we express our anger in terms of violence. The people who commit these acts are responsible for their actions. But we’ve built that option into the national discourse.

    36. geo

      This country is not run by voting public choice, its run by the special interest groups. The health insurance lobby, big pharmaceuticals, banks, investment firms, defense contractors, credit card companies, high-tech firms, energy conglomerates, and yes the NRA/gun manufacturers are all listened to instead of the public majority opinion. They have the money and we don’t. It is sick what rampant capitalism is doing to our politics, culture, society, and environment. Until that problem is fixed, it won’t significantly matter who the president is because he/she will be largely powerless to change the problems facing the country alone against all of their money and influence.

      this pretty well sums up how i see things…just not sure if it’s because i’m a realist, or, cynic…

      given the human “condition” – true democracy may not be achievable…and, may not even be in the best interest of all (particularly those in the minority)…protecting ourselves – from our ourselves, doesn’t exactly ring of freedom…

      and yes, to a large degree this seems to be the main facilitator for these tragedies:

      Cash Rules Everything Around Me

      i do believe though that the world and societies on a whole have become less violent over history…it sure doesn’t feel that way though – at times america feels like some over the top peckinpah movie…

      some how or another, manufacture and distribution of semi-automatic/automatic firearms needs to be addressed…learning about “trigger cranks” and “gat cranks” today…what a tragedy…

    37. Grocer

      I doubt any of us are in a position to influence the gun lobby or change the politics that prevent regulation. But maybe we can have some positive impact just by changing how we talk about problems and anger. I’ve been trying but it’s hard. Trying to unlearn 40 years of reactions isn’t easy. But I think maybe it’s worth it, though obviously a single person impact is very small.

    38. freethrow

      They used to have rifle clubs at schools not long ago, it’s not the regulation, society is changing, it’s not even fundamentally changing for the worse, in the long run murders are down and continue to go down

      Mass shooters aren’t a societal level problem, more people die to drowning in their own bathtub than of rifles of any kind. The problem with mass shooters is the same one that’s with streakers, and the only way they “fixed” or greatly reduced streaking in sports was to stop showing it on TV.

      If you can get the TV stations and mass media outlets to stop plastering the shooters name and face everywhere and give them a national stage this stuff would stop because they are being rewarded with national attention.

    39. GoNyGoNyGo

      @39 – I’ve had my arguments with pro-gun advocates. The only one that they had that made any sense to me was that a family living out in rural America needs to protect itself because law enforcement is not around the corner like it is in a big city. They need guns and the threat of guns to keep their family safe. Still, military grade assault weapons, silencers, etc should not be in the hands of civilians. People should be trained on the safe use of guns and we shouldn’t be selling them to paranoid schizophrenics. There’s a reasonable middle of the road that we need to find.

    40. ClashFan

      @42 and 45
      I’ve tried to reach common ground with some people on at least removing gun technologies for the general public that provide so much firepower, but it doesn’t work. The domino effect argument comes up, and the freedom one.

      Could people be okay with just revolvers, single or dual barrel shotguns, and bolt action hunting rifles for personal defense and hunting? Not in my experience. The cool, empowering feel of semi-auto weapons combined with people feeling that the gov’t is out to get them remains. The NRA and other gun groups really foster that sentiment. The arguments are powerful.

    41. ess-dog

      The really scary part is to think about all the years semi-automatic weapons have been LEGALLY sold in this country (not to mention how many have been sold illegally.)
      How often do they leave possession of the registered buyer? How many are stockpiled around the U.S.? How many future shooters will we be helpless to stop?
      And most importantly, how can any politician with anything resembling a soul accept campaign money from the NRA?

    42. ClashFan

      @47
      Great questions. It is a massive problem. Millions upon millions of guns, though I’ve not sure how many of those are semi-auto type stuff.

      We’d have to first totally stop the supply line to the general public, starting with gun manufacturers. Then, try incentives to get people to turn in what they currently have. What incentives? Other than cash $$, I don’t know what might work even in a small way. Forcibly taking would not go. You’d have to “grandfather clause” in ownership of what’s already out there, then try to get people to willingly part with the semi-auto stuff.

      I’d like to be wrong, but this is not going to happen.

      Frank’s groin injury concerns me. Even minor ones can linger for weeks or even months, as I know from personal experience. I’d love to see him play tomorrow, but they probably need to make him sit it out.

    43. Grocer

      If you can get the TV stations and mass media outlets to stop plastering the shooters name and face everywhere and give them a national stage this stuff would stop because they are being rewarded with national attention.

      We only see the big events get national attention. There are hundreds of these incidents every year that don’t. It’s not as rare as it seems, most just have lower body counts. Murder suicides, shots fired at a crowd, all of these frequently have the same thing of anger with violence as the answer.

      I don’t know. It’s not a manifesto, just trying to think of ways I can personally have some kind of positive impact.

    44. TheOakmanCometh

      I’m with Silky. If nothing changed after Sandy Hook, it’s not going to change now.

      Politicians will send their thoughts and prayers, gun control advocates will cry out for more restrictions, and gun rights advocates will accuse them of politicizing a tragedy. We all know the pattern. In two weeks everyone will move on, until the next shooting. Wash, rinse, repeat.

    45. JK47

      I’ve tried to reach common ground with some people on at least removing gun technologies for the general public that provide so much firepower, but it doesn’t work. The domino effect argument comes up, and the freedom one.

      Lots of people don’t really understand that the “slippery slope” argument is actually a logical fallacy. I’m a left-leaning guy and I don’t want to take people’s guns away. I think it’s reasonable to own a firearm. I do not think it’s reasonable to own all kinds of high-powered fully automatic military grade shit. You’re just not going to need it for any legitimate purpose. The percentage of The Left™ that wants to actually confiscate and ban guns is vanishingly small. But you can’t really talk about any sort of common sense regulation without the “slippery slope” canard coming out very quickly.

    46. Grocer

      Then, try incentives to get people to turn in what they currently have. What incentives? Other than cash $$, I don’t know what might work even in a small way.

      Australia did a buy-back after a mass shooting that worked well (and murder rates dropped fast) but that’s a non-starter here.

      Not worried about Frank’s injury. He’s barely 19, we just need to bring him along slow regardless of how well he performs. He’s highly unlikely to be able to handle the minutes load of a full season anyway.

    47. Mike Kurylo Post author

      First off, thanks for having a calm political discussion.

      Second, nothing will change with our government/laws because a large segment of our population doesn’t want it to change. Until gun control at some level is popular, and politicians start getting voted out of office for an issue like this, there’ll be no change.

      Third, if we did want to change, there are a lot of ways to go about doing it. Australia was similar to the US. A “newer” country formed in the age of gun powder, where guns were a part of life and even their liberties. Then in 1996 they suffered a gun massacre in Port Arthur. The government with the support of a majority of the people implemented strict laws on guns which included buy-backs, licenses, etc. Most Australians feel this has been a huge success as the country’s gun death’s rates declined. It’s a model we could copy here.

      Of course, there was a popular gun-control movement that had started decades prior, and the country rallied around the shooting. Again it comes down to the people wanting it, which we don’t really have in America.

    48. Nick C.

      I don’t get why anyone would want to or need a semi-automatic weapon. The thing is we are a strange or unique country in that we overthrew a monarchy to come into being. Some of that right of the individual being superior to the right of the government is hard wired into our national psyche. FFS look at the flag issue, that is all about individual choice. What this has to do with guns, I can’t quite pinpoint other than there is a “don’t tell me what to do” attitude.

      As for the “slippery slope” that argument seems to be used by every side when convenient. It seems to me it comes out with respect to abortion restrictions and back in the day Medicaid/Medicare.

    49. Grocer

      We only see the big events get national attention.

      I don’t want to hammer this point but the first mass shooting after Vegas happened around an hour later in Lawrence, KS. Five shot, at least three fatally.

    50. stratomatic's love hate relationship with The Knicks because of Melo is over

      I can’t verify this yet, but I saw some information that leads me to believe the weapons this guy used are illegal. They weren’t the controversial semi automatic weapons. These were military level automatic weapons that have been illegal for a very long time. For the sake of conversation, let’s assume this is true. How the hell did he get an arsenal of illegal guns?

      “Experts who have listened to audio of the gunfire Sunday night from the Mandalay Bay Hotel say the continuous gunfire indicates Paddock used at least one automatic weapon, meaning he could unleash the contents of an entire clip by pulling the trigger once and holding it down.

      Semi-automatic weapons, by contrast, automatically reload but require pulling the trigger each time a shooter wants to fire a bullet.

      ATF, FBI and Homeland Security Investigations officials have not yet responded to messages seeking comment on the weapons used Sunday.”

    51. Count de Pennies

      All it does is ignore structural and systematic relations of power that affect people in multiple ways, while targeting the same usual demographics as the cause for a phenomenon that has its roots in societal life a lot more than in some incapacity to be “normal”.

      Spot on.

      This is why I disagree with those who maintain that “mass shootings” should not be considered political acts unless they can be affiliated with some widely recognized ideology. The mere act of carrying an arsenal into a crowded venue with the express purpose of inflicting as much harm as possible is obviously done with the intention of making a very public statement.

      Because such statements come off as largely incoherent when they do not fall under the umbrella of an established religious or political “movement” it is all too easy to write them off as the actions of an unhinged lunatic; a “lone wolf.” But given the frequency with which these type of events now occur in America, it’s getting harder and harder to dismiss each one as a one-off. I believe it’s incumbent upon us as a society to ask ourselves what the unifying thread might be beyond just the easy access to high powered weaponry.

      I think investigating the “structural relations of power” that Bruno spoke of would be an excellent place to start. An inevitable consequence of the decades-long disenfranchisement of the non-monied majority is a growing sense of powerlessness within individual actors. A handful of those individuals in our country, with its toxic culture of violence, may conclude that their only opportunity to be heard, their only opportunity to exert any kind of power, is with their fingers on the trigger of a high powered assault rifle.

      If that does not meet the classic definition of “terrorism,” it’s only because we as a society have not bothered to engage the very real grievances that compel certain unbalanced individuals to express themselves in this way.

    52. Ntilakilla

      I think there is a segment within this country who won’t be happy until we’ve become a complete simulacrum of the Wild West seen in old Hollywood Westerns. I say simulacrum because the actual history of the Western frontier was a lot less dramatic than the cowboy culture touted by the NRA gun nuts. I mean, we elected a man who played cowboys for a living in B-Hollywood films back in the 1980s and then elected another president who pretended to be a cowboy off his Crawford Ranch. All of this preening you see in segments of the American Right about rugged individualism, white nationalist nostalgia and worship of winner take all rugged capitalism are all beckoning that era of Manifest Destiny when the expansion of Anglo-Saxon civilization either wiped out or dispossessed entire populations of brown and red people. Now in today’s scenario, however, the Muslims are the Indians, the Mexicans are still the Mexicans, and whatever right-wing strongman oligarch (Donald Trump, Joe Arpaio, David Clarke) is in charge can be the sheriff civilizing the land from barbarians.

    53. stratomatic loves this new Knicks team

      Lots of people don’t really understand that the “slippery slope” argument is actually a logical fallacy. I’m a left-leaning guy and I don’t want to take people’s guns away. I think it’s reasonable to own a firearm. I do not think it’s reasonable to own all kinds of high-powered fully automatic military grade shit. You’re just not going to need it for any legitimate purpose. The percentage of The Left™ that wants to actually confiscate and ban guns is vanishingly small. But you can’t really talk about any sort of common sense regulation without the “slippery slope” canard coming out very quickly.

      Before I comment again, I want people to understand where I am coming from.

      I’m not a gun guy.

      I never owned one.
      I never fired one.
      I never even held one.

      I think you are spot on when it comes to the average American on the left. I have more liberal than conservative friends (I am libertarian) and pretty much all would agree with you.

      However, from what I gather, the UN has a stated goal of disarming citizens around the world. It even has a strategy laid out with bullet points for how to do it. That’s the kind of thing that leads to the paranoia we see on the part of the gun advocates.

      That’s also why I said earlier that to get reasonable gun control, is HAS TO be republicans that do it. There’s no way the gun people are going to trust democrats. That’s never going to happen. But if republicans do it, they will be more sensitive to the fears on the right and do it in a way that will be tolerable to them. It’s doable, but it’s going to be tough because some people love hunting, sport shooting, and feel that they need guns to protect themselves, especially in an environment with so much anti police rhetoric.

      Strange fact: Gun sales exploded under Obama but have been declining under Trump.

    54. freethrow

      That or look at Mexico which has very strick gun laws, low gun ownership and higher intentional homicide rates. why people want to cause violence to eachother is more complex than couple laws.

    55. Frank O.

      freethrow
      October 2, 2017 at 2:53 pm
      They used to have rifle clubs at schools not long ago, it’s not the regulation, society is changing, it’s not even fundamentally changing for the worse, in the long run murders are down and continue to go down

      Mass shooters aren’t a societal level problem, more people die to drowning in their own bathtub than of rifles of any kind. The problem with mass shooters is the same one that’s with streakers, and the only way they “fixed” or greatly reduced streaking in sports was to stop showing it on TV.

      If you can get the TV stations and mass media outlets to stop plastering the shooters name and face everywhere and give them a national stage this stuff would stop because they are being rewarded with national attention.

      Tucker Carlson made the more people die in bathtubs than by guns argument.
      REspectfully, it’s complete and utter bullshit. It is my experience that most of was TC says is bullshit. There is a reason John Stewart went on Carlson’s own show and embarrassed him.
      If you don’t believe me, just read this: http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/aug/15/tucker-carlson/carlson-guns-dont-kill-people-bathtubs-do/

    56. freethrow

      I speficially mention rifles because rifles are used in these events.

      RIFLES are not handguns, cheap handguns are the king of murder by far, and you can trace most of that violence to certain zipcodes within cities. alot of that activity is already illegal, just like it’s illegal to own a fully automatic rifle which this guy used.

      that politifact article is pretty crappy btw, it explains that the numbers are extremely close and depending on the year tuckers logic construction is true.

    57. Ntilakilla

      I also think we need to start having a very honest and factual reconsideration of what the Second Amendment means and what rights it actually provides. To me, it is the most misinterpreted amendment in the entire Bill of Rights. The original framers were civic republicans who believed in the necessity of citizen’s militias to protect their communities against the tyranny of an autocrat. They granted the right to bear arms insofar as it was practiced within “a well-regulated militia.” If anyone has a doubt as to this question go and actually read The Federalist Papers and see what Hamilton and Madison thought on the issue. They were miles away from what right-wing revisionist Supreme Court Judges have ruled on the issue by making this an individual property rights issue.

    58. 2FOR18, understands math

      Can I politely request an “OT” proceed any post not about the knicks or basketball. There are about a zillion sites dedicated to politics.

    59. Frank O.

      Machine guns are legally sold in Nevada.
      What was used was definitely automatic.
      If you have ever fired a machine gun, I have, or a submachine gun, I have, the sound is unmistakable.
      But no worries, Congress wants to make silencers legal, for the protection of the ears of the shooters….

      If you’re a Federalist Society Constitutional purist, a conservative, whatever, I’m perfectly happy allowing you to have a muzzle loaded musket. THAT is what the Founders were referencing.

    60. Ntilakilla

      That or look at Mexico which has very strick gun laws, low gun ownership and higher intentional homicide rates. why people want to cause violence to eachother is more complex than couple laws.

      Mexico is in the middle of a civil war. It isn’t reported as such in our media because our media is full of shit and doing so would expose the role of the War on Drugs in perpetuating that conflict, but that entire country is a war zone for a struggle between rival factions competing to control the economy of the world’s largest narco-state.

    61. Bruno Almeida

      Brazil is also a place where legal guns are very hard to come by, you need to have proper training and a spotless slate to be able to own even the simplest pistol. However, murders are prevalent and a part of most people’s reality.

      I think the argument should be somewhere in the middle. Yes, strict gun regulations won’t outright stop killings or even mass murders from happening. It’s an issue that has roots much deeper in the way society organized itself throughout centuries of imbalanced relations and struggles for power.

      However, seeing as those issues exist and they’re not likely to fade away anytime soon, restricting easy access to killing machines could have a role in preventing some cases from happening. Not the solution, more a prophylactic treatment.

      Gun regulations haven’t stopped murder in Brazil, but it’s incredibly rare that a mass murder happens in similar circumstances as it happens in the US. Obviously nobody can know how the situation would be around here with guns sold at every Wal-Mart, but I can bet it would be worse.

    62. ClashFan

      @69
      Bingo! As a former English teacher, I’ve often used the “well-regulated militia” clause to argue that modern local, state, and national law enforcement and the military IS what the constitution protects in the modern world, not everyone and anyone being able to buy firearms.

      That amendment was written in an era when local militias pretty much were law enforcement, etc. Also, firearms back then were single shot muskets, not even close to modern guns with incredible ranges, accuracy, firing rates, and destructive ammunition.

      The argument falls on deaf ears.

      I’ve also noted the use of “infringed” in the amendment as a point of contention. We already do “infringe” on the right to keep and bear arms; it’s just a matter of how much.

    63. freethrow

      yeah well oppressive forces and gun suppression kinda go hand in hand, Venezuela also in the last few years banned private ownership.

      There’s no shortage of violence there either.

    64. GoNyGoNyGo

      @50 – They took Tom Petty off life support. RIP.
      @70 – We typically refrain from politics but some days it’s not possible. I agree with Mike’s opening statement @55:

      First off, thanks for having a calm political discussion.

      I also appreciate that this group of very sane individuals is probably as diverse a group as can be found having the discussion. I’m sure that some of us are White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, rich, poor, young and old. The fact that we can be civil here is a compliment to all. Sports is a great, unifying force where we all can become brothers.

    65. 2FOR18, understands math

      With all due respect Mike, this is an echo chamber, not a calm discussion. Unless you call advocating for the murder of nra members and other hateful bile calm

    66. 2FOR18, understands math

      Lmao at the old musket argument. By that logic, the Federal Government has the right to restrict speech taking place on this blog, because after all, how could the founders have possibly envisioned the internet.

    67. GoNyGoNyGo

      Update on Tom Petty, there were false reports of his death but his condition is grave.

      @77 – Where did ANYONE here advocate the murder of NRA members? Not in this thread!

    68. 2FOR18, understands math

      ” When I read and hear from the NRA after a mass shooting like the one yesterday, I want to put them in front of a firing squad.”

      At 79 that was from 32

    69. thenamestsam

      Lmao at the old musket argument. By that logic, the Federal Government has the right to restrict speech taking place on this blog, because after all, how could the founders have possibly envisioned the internet.

      I don’t think you’re really understanding what those who put forth that argument are saying. They’re not saying anything that didn’t exist at the time of the bill of rights should be automatically unprotected, only that the constant changing of the world makes treating any several hundred year-old document as a sacrosanct text foolish. The founders certainly didn’t anticipate blogs or ar-15s so assuming that trying to interpret their few simple rules as literally as possible is a good way to construct public policy seems pretty asinine to many of us.

      I think if the country had a serious conversation about gun control there actually are a lot of moderate solutions that appeal to the majority and could save a lot of lives. I don’t think what anyone in 1789 thought should have much bearing on that conversation to be honest.

    70. 2FOR18, understands math

      @81 I’d like to point out that there are thousands of state and federal gun laws already, so it’s disingenuous to pretend that moderate gun laws have not been discussed . There isn’t any law that would have prevented this nut job from doing what he did.

    71. stratomatic loves this new Knicks team

      Machine guns are legally sold in Nevada.
      What was used was definitely automatic.

      Machine guns are illegal in the US and have been for a very long time. He either obtained an illegal weapon somehow or more likely bought a legal semi automatic weapon (which requires pulling the trigger for each shot) and illegally adapted it.

    72. fmikieo

      If this dude really did go crazy, the most reasonable question should be, what made him snap?

      Until we, the people, can have the honest discussion about providing folks with the opportunities (occupational and/or economic) and human services that this nation sorely lacks, we’ll continue to have this sort of thing happen.

    73. Ntilakilla

      I really believe, when a future race excavates the remains of our long-fallen civilization, they will believe the United States was by far the most violent nation on Earth by the long sea of firearms we will have left behind.

    74. stratomatic loves this new Knicks team

      The original framers were civic republicans who believed in the necessity of citizen’s militias to protect their communities against the tyranny of an autocrat. They granted the right to bear arms insofar as it was practiced within “a well-regulated militia.”

      I’m no legal scholar, but if it was clear, there would be no debate.

      The government did not provide guns to the militias the way the military does now. You used your own gun and ammo. It was basically understood that almost everyone had guns for a variety of reasons. There is also a debate over what the second half of the amendment means.

      I find the very idea of “interpreting” what some people 100s of years ago meant to be appalling.

      If it’s not specifically spelled out or if reasonable people can differ in their opinions, we should not be interpreting anything. We should require new laws and amendments.

    75. Ntilakilla

      I’m no legal scholar, but if it was clear, there would be no debate.

      Clarity does not necessarily equate to the finality of debate. For instance, we’re still debating the reality of anthropomorphic climate change in our political discourse despite there being a near scientific consensus among the world’s top climatologists that it is a growing problem. Obviously, that debate is continuing for political reasons that have little to do with actual facts on the ground.

      There is also a debate over what the second half of the amendment means.

      Not in the Federalist Papers, which is the authoritative exploration of the Bill of Rights. Read Alexander Hamilton’s Federalist Paper No. 29. The terms of the “right to bear arms” debate had zero to do with the individual right to property. It is not even in the conversation. The issue was one regarding common defense and the autonomy citizen’s militias should enjoy from federal government control. Those men who were supposed to brandish arms were supposed to be well trained, organized, and regulated by some form of government authority. The disagreement was whether you believed, as Federalists had, that Congress should have ultimate authority over these men, or if you believed, as did the anti-Federalists, that the states need more control to ensure their autonomy from an all-too-powerful federal government.

      The idea being that if times change or there is a dispute as to meaning, the constitution can be changed/clarified.

      I agree, but the problem is that we’re not beginning the debate where it should start in order to “clarify” the Bill of Rights – which is what the original framers intended in their drafting of the law. People reference the Second Amendment in a very misleading and ahistorical way to argue the framers were anti-regulation when the opposite was, in fact, the case.

    76. 2FOR18, understands math

      @85, if you think the US is violent, Google Africa genocide.
      On another note, the violent crime rate in the US is lower now than at any point in the last 40 years.

    77. Ntilakilla

      @85, if you think the US is violent, Google Africa genocide.

      Africa is the world’s second-largest continent so comparing it to the United States, the world’s third largest nation, is kind of ridiculous. Anyways, African nations get most of their arms from us so you could make an argument that we’re exporting our violence to that region, like we do to most of the world.

      On another note, the violent crime rate in the US is lower now than at any point in the last 40 years.

      This is the irony of my point. We love the idea of violence, not the reality. This gun fetish people have is a product of our divorce from the actual consequences of war, conflict, and strife experienced around the world.

    78. geo

      Knickerblogger.Net

      Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks…and, the fact that clarity does not necessarily equate to the finality of debate…

    79. Ntilakilla

      clarity does not necessarily equate to the finality of debate

      Damn, that rhymed. I’m a poet who didn’t even know it. I’m glad I showed it.

    80. geo

      Damn, that rhymed. I’m a poet who didn’t even know it. I’m glad I showed it.

      yes sir…you most definitely have a way with words mister ras :-)

    81. fmikieo

      I find the very idea of “interpreting” what some people 100s of years ago meant to be appalling.

      If it’s not specifically spelled out or if reasonable people can differ in their opinions, we should not be interpreting anything. We should require new laws and amendments.

      Be careful, as an argument like this could be used against having a constitution altogether…a slippery slope none should care to explore.

    82. ClashFan

      I think this was a great day on the board. Great posts, and I liked 2for18 joining in on the contrary side.

      Props to Ntillakilla for bringing the Federalist Papers into the thread! The Federalist Papers?!
      :-)

      I reupped with NBA League Pass, so I’m assuming that I can watch tomorrow night’s game!

    83. geo

      I reupped with NBA League Pass, so I’m assuming that I can watch tomorrow night’s game!

      i was debating whether to sign up once again (last year was the first time)…while deciding i received a notification letting me know i already had (ugh, the auto renew conundrum)…

      so, it quickly became an internal discussion as to whether to cancel or not…

      i used to get jealous when i would read the posts here detailing the games prior to the time i signed up for league pass…i haven’t seen the schedule for this year – but, i’m guessing we won’t be on national tv too often…so, looks like i’ll keep it…

    84. rama in the JING

      @Grocer

      I hear you, man. I was raised Catholic and left the faith because I couldn’t abide a religion that codified hypocrisy through Augustine’s “Just War” argument and the steady disenfranchisement of women over the centuries. (Never mind the Inquisition, the pederasty, the anti-intellectualism, etc.) I found a home in Quakerism (and not only because of a gorgeous woman I dated who was Quaker…and whom I married eventually…) The practice of non-violence is core to what they believe, for the reason that we all have that of God in us, so to harm another person is an act against God. That sounds about right to me. Plus it’s a bit of a mystical religion, with the idea that you don’t need a priest or rabbi or imam to contact The Divine – you can do it directly.

      But I’m an angry guy, so it’s very, very difficult to live by those principles. It isn’t practical, that’s for sure, and it isn’t respected – to be a man you’re supposed to be macho and beat people down and show your enemies how tough you are and so on. As Gandhi said, though, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, so I’m sure it’s the right way. That way is the true opposite of Trump – not vitriol with an opposing political bias, but steady, compassionate, positive engagement. Which sounds like PC bs when I type it, but it takes incredible fortitude and passion to practice, and is the real Opposition. Just know that you’re not alone in trying to practice it.

    85. ClashFan

      geo, did you not get a notification before it automatically renewed? Both NBA and MLB send me email updates well before actually charging.

      I got my NBA email on 8/31 telling me that it would be renewed on Sept. 26, so I had nearly a month to cancel.

      I just hope that the quality improves. I’ve had lots of problems with the Roku app, and watching on a PC also had problems last year with commercial breaks stopping the live game feed.

    86. Ntilakilla

      Dennis Smith Jr. has been meh. So has Monk. Taytum looks like he could be special though, he’s shown an all-around game.

    87. KnickfaninNJ

      If you interpret the “right to bear arms” amendment as something to always enable citizens to fight back against tyranny, then you could conclude that you need modern weapons to fight against a modern state. But that interpretation also means that the guy who shot policemen because he was angry about all the police killings of unarmed people was more in the spirit of the amendment than the shooter in Las Vegas. I don’t think any modern gun rights supporter would admit that.

    88. Ntilakilla

      But that interpretation also means that the guy who shot policemen because he was angry about all the police killings of unarmed people was more in the spirit of the amendment than the shooter in Las Vegas.

      There was nothing “well-regulated” about that nutjob’s firing spree. He wasn’t a citizen militiaman, he was a lone insurrectionist.

    89. KnickfaninNJ

      Thats certainly true, but no NRA supporter thinks there should be any reguation at all, much less “well-regulated” arms. So the nutjob was doing what many gun rights supporters claim they want the right to do.

    90. Ntilakilla

      @1o1

      The fact he calls an 8th overall pick a “diamond in the rough” tells me he thinks Ntilikina can be a top 5 player in this draft.

    91. Brian Cronin

      It strikes me more that the anti-Ntilikina backlash grew so big that people seem to forget that he was a consensus top 10 pick, so now somehow a consensus top 10 pick is an underdog! I mean, I’m all for it (underdog narrative is great), but it doesn’t make much logical sense. We’ve been talking about Ntilikina for, what, a YEAR? But now he’s out there in the rough?

    92. Ntilakilla

      Yeah, after re-reading the article its clear his analysis is considering our selection of Frank ahead of the more conventional alternatives in Smith and Monk.

    93. Bruno Almeida

      I think it’s the hype, it’s normal. Ntilikina doesn’t jump the highest and doesn’t have widespread highlight videos, and he is said to be have a ceiling of more “overqualified role player” than “potential superstar”. It’s only natural that the general narrative won’t pay much attention to the fundamentals / high IQ guy and will be skeptical.

      He’s also super young and even I, who had very high expectations for him, am pleasantly surprised by the amount of praise that has come out so far.

    94. rama in the JING

      Dude was the #8 overall pick!

      Yeah, but the Knicks picked him, and the media hates the Knicks and everything they do is stupid, so automatically he’s “in the rough.” Never mind that the Knicks have drafted very, very well the last few years.

    95. Grocer

      steady, compassionate, positive engagement. Which sounds like PC bs when I type it, but it takes incredible fortitude and passion to practice, and is the real Opposition.

      Thanks rama. That means a lot. You wrote about it better than I did.

      I fought a lot when I was a kid. It took a long time to realize I was making the world a worse place. That resentment, that aggrieved sense of having been wronged, it took a longer time to let that go. But I’d like to leave the world a better place if I can. Yeah, it sounds like bullshit. But words are how we know the world, and maybe if we stop talking about violence as a legit solution, maybe it’ll stop being one. For some people. Hopefully.

    96. KnickfaninNJ

      109, exactly right. And in addition, the media thinks the Knicks only pick players br their triangle skills, despite the Knicks draftng Porzingis, who, for all his talent, doesnt seem to be the sort of passing big man the Triangle is best for.

    97. Ntilakilla

      Lonzo Ball went out of the game with an ankle issue. NYC media would spin it as if he was done for the season.

    98. Donnie Walsh

      ” When I read and hear from the NRA after a mass shooting like the one yesterday, I want to put them in front of a firing squad.”

      I think that comment was referring to the NRA individual making that statement, not all of the NRA’s members. But, your point is taken.

      Re: “the old musket argument”, I think your internet free speech parallel is a false equivalency. (And if you really can’t see the difference, then you must hate the 3 pt line and the 24 second clock.)

    99. GoNyGoNyGo

      @80 & @113 – You’re right. I shouldn’t have said it that way. What was intended to be said is that the NRA should be put on trial for being an accessory to murder – that the NRA is culpable for the death of the people at the concert.

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