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Monday, November 20, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.08.23)

  • [NYPost] Frank Ntilikina’s fellow rookies think little of him
    (Tuesday, August 22, 2017 8:56:10 AM)

    Maybe this year’s NBA rookies didn’t know how to spell his name. In a rookie survey that took place two weeks ago during the league’s annual rookie photo shoot in Tarrytown, Knicks point guard Frank Ntilikina didn’t receive a single vote in any of the categories that were voted upon. Thirty first-year players received at…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo Anthony is going to have an awkward preseason
    (Tuesday, August 22, 2017 7:26:57 AM)

    In a cruel bit of irony for Carmelo Anthony, the Rockets are making an appearance on the Knicks’ preseason schedule, visiting the Garden on Oct. 9. According to widespread reports, Anthony has told the Knicks he is willing to waive his no-trade clause only for the Rockets, who feature his two buddies, Chris Paul and…

  • [NYPost] LeBron James doesn’t shoot down Knicks’ pipe dream
    (Tuesday, August 22, 2017 7:15:37 AM)

    So you’re saying there’s a chance? LeBron James, given an opportunity to shoot down a rumor he could look at New York as a free-agent destination next offseason, played dumb instead. “I don’t even know what you’re talking about, shawty,” James told TMZ when asked about Blake Griffin hypothesizing James would be a Knick before…

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks release NBA preseason schedule
    (Tuesday, August 22, 2017 12:58:00 PM)

    The Knicks released their five-game preseason schedule, with three games at Madison Square Garden.

  • [NYTimes] Cavs Trade Kyrie Irving to Celtics for Isaiah Thomas
    (Wednesday, August 23, 2017 2:32:46 AM)

    Irving had requested a trade away from the Cavaliers earlier in the summer despite coming off an appearance in the N.B.A. Finals.

  • [SNY Knicks] Cavaliers, Celtics agree to deal Irving to Boston, Thomas to Cleveland
    (Tuesday, August 22, 2017 7:28:00 PM)

    The Cleveland Cavaliers agreed to trade Kyrie Irving to the Boston Celtics in exchange for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic and the Brooklyn Nets’ 2018 unprotected first-round pick.

  • [SNY Knicks] Frank Ntilkina received no votes in rookie photo shoot survey
    (Tuesday, August 22, 2017 2:06:31 PM)

    Knicks first-rounder Frank Ntilikina didn’t find any respect from his fellow rookies as he didn’t earn one vote in any category during the NBA rookie photo shoot.

  • [SNY Knicks] LeBron James gave non-answer when asked about potential of joining Knicks
    (Tuesday, August 22, 2017 12:45:30 PM)

    LeBron James is set to become a free agent after the 2017-18 season, and at least one player thinks the four-time MVP could join the Knicks.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks announce 2017-18 preseason schedule
    (Tuesday, August 22, 2017 10:49:32 AM)

    The Knicks have announced their 2017-18 preseason schedule starting in October.

  • 71 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.08.23)

    1. Z-man

      Now that the trade has sunk in, I am feeling that it was a great deal for the Cavs and a very good deal for the Celts. It’s not like they don’t have any trade assets any more. They got the best of what was realistically available. Yes, they paid a high price, but they risked losing Thomas for nothing, or worse, signing him to a stupid deal. Kyrie is a young stud entering the prime of his career on a team-friendly deal. A lot of the value of this deal depends on how Jayson Tatum turns out. Getting the first rounder in that pick swap made the Kyrie deal more palatable. But had they just drafted Ball or Fultz, maybe in 3 years, they have a better player than Kyrie and could have traded Isiah and Crowder for a defensive player.

      The Celtics have lost much of their defensive identity from last year. They still seem to be a player or two away from being competitive with CLE and obviously GSW. I could even see a team like Milwaukee giving them some trouble.

    2. Totes McGoats Makes 18mil For 14ppg

      Continuing the conversation from yesterday(by the way I LOVE the way we can collectively just talk hoops here without the callouts, name calling, etc the way we have for the last 12 hours or so)…

      I’ve seen too many good comments to quote, but one I wanna touch on is the idea of trying to get that pick from Cleveland. That’s a great idea. At the same time, I’m inclined to believe Cleveland wants to keep that Brooklyn pick at all costs because they believe LeBron is leaving again. I’m not sure if they have their own pick next year, but if they do- maybe we can send KOQ/Lee for Frye, fodder, and that pick. Melo is definitely a better pickup for them as a combo forward 6th man in tandem with Crowder. So unless they are willing to give up that Brooklyn pick, then I don’t think Perry should speak with them regarding Melo. And I definitely don’t wanna hold on to Melo in hopes of LeBron signing next offseason.

      Let’s just go with the youngins and ask Melo to expand his list a little. I’m sure we can find a deal that’s palatable if it isn’t Houston. By the way, I think Houston is the best landing spot for Melo with the additions of Tucker and Luc Mbah a Moute. The question is or the questions are: can Morey find a 3rd team and are we certain Anderson won’t play better as a Knick 6th man so we can flip him at the deadline? I can see Charlotte being a sucker for Anderson if Hornacek can coax better play out of him. Maybe even Detroit. But it doesn’t feel like enough to accept a deal for him. I’d strongly consider it regardless, if we can get Ariza and a 1st in the process. I’m not a fan of it- I’m jist saying it would be worth considering. At least we know Anderson can play backup 4. Melo as a starting 3 nowadays? Not so much

    3. MSA

      It’s worth noting that despite IT’s great offensive numbers, he is arguably the worst defensive player in the league by advanced stats and eye test.

      Not that Kyrie is setting the world on fire on defense, but It would very risky for the Celtics to max a 30 year old 5’9″ no defense injury plagued PG next season, so I can see that maybe they are selling high.

      The other assets sent to CLE OTOH, are Knicks level bad negotiation IMO.

    4. Z-man

      I think this trade helps the Knicks in that a) we are no longer in a position to do something stupid to get Kyrie, like trading Porzingis and/or multiple draft picks and b) I could see both Boston and Cleveland being beatable in 3-4 years if the Knicks continue to be patient. Boston is now a very pedestrian defensive team. Maybe boy genius Brad Stevens coaches them up, but I just don’t see a good two-way team there. Cleveland’s future obviously depends on LeBron, but 3 years from now is murky at best.

    5. Ntilakilla

      Does anyone think we can leverage this new situation with Cleveland into getting Morey to sweeten the pot for Melo? Surely Cleveland might be interested in adding Melo now, no?

    6. Z-man

      I’m not sure how Morey can sweeten the pot in a way that doesn’t hurt his team beyond Melo’s value. Suggestions?

    7. Ntilakilla

      I’m not sure how Morey can sweeten the pot in a way that doesn’t hurt his team beyond Melo’s value. Suggestions?

      Continue to eat Anderson’s contract.

    8. DS

      This deal is good news for us. I mean, we’re probably going to suck forever. BUT if the hope is that we’re building a team that will be in good in 2020, then it helps to have the Celtics lose potentially a top 5 pick in the 2018 draft. A core of Tatum plus one or two of (with the Lakers’ pick) Doncic, Bagley, Porter, or Bamba would have been no bueno for us.

    9. DS

      Does anyone think we can leverage this new situation with Cleveland into getting Morey to sweeten the pot for Melo? Surely Cleveland might be interested in adding Melo now, no?

      As in: “Hi Daryl! Did you see that Kyrie trade? You still want us to take Anderson? You don’t?! Great!”
      No, I don’t see it.

    10. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      There is no trade to be made with Houston. Melo will retire a New York Knick.

      I hate the trade for Boston (but love it as a Knicks fan). They’re officially a 44-48 win team and that’s if Al Horford doesn’t decline. They should try to grab DJ from LAC if that team is going to compete. Kyrie, Gordon Hayward, and the Celtics probably lose to the Wizards in a playoff series.

    11. Z-man

      I think the issue is not keeping Anderson per se, but keeping him and making salaries match w/o giving up key rotation pieces like Ariza.

    12. wetbandit

      Again, I don’t care so much about taking on Anderson, but only if they give us fair assets which we need, like two first rounders and Jae. I’d even take Brooklyn’s #1, Anderson, crap, and second rounders for Melo. We ain’t gonna be decent in Anderson’s contract timeline anyway, so we might as well pick up youth, and maybe even great picks if Cleveland loses LeBron.

      For all I know Cleveland already said no to this. For all I know, the Knicks don’t value picks anymore. I don’t know shit.

    13. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I’m pretty sure Melo would be willing to play with IT, JR, and LeBron. The problem is he will under no circumstances come off the bench.

    14. thenamestsam

      One angle I haven’t seen anyone mention with regards to this trade is the truly impressive degree to which the Pacers played themselves in the Paul George trade. I mean that haul was embarrassing the moment it happened, it looks worse now that we’ve seen what Cleveland was able to get for Kyrie, and if they’d just waited there’s a 100% chance they’d be getting a Kevin Love+Brooklyn pick offer today.

    15. english_knick

      I just can’t see Cleveland trading the Nets pick in a deal for Melo. It’s a huge asset – good chance it’s a top 5 pick in a draft with 5 guys getting love for the top couple of picks. All the pre-trade coverage said they wanted a combo of win-now assets and assets that would help a rebuild if Lebron leaves. Turning round and trading that pick for Melo makes it an all win-now deal.

      What I do think is possible is that it opens up a Love for Melo deal. Cleveland’s strategy seems to be to push the chips in now for a one-year run at a second title for Lebron while almost expecting to have to clear house next summer. IT4 is perfect for that – if Lebrun stays they resign him and if not he’s off the books.

      In that context, a Melo/KOQ for Love/Shump deal makes some sense. If Lebron leaves, Melo and KOQ opt out – and they’ve just cleared almost all their cap in one fell swoop. Meanwhile we can almost certainly find third/fourth teams willing to take Love and Shump for some young players/draft assets, and unlike Melo, they don’t have NTCs. I bet Portland would give up assets for Love.

    16. vincoug

      So here’s what I don’t get about the Boston trade. Shouldn’t they have been able to trade the 3rd pick in this year’s draft, IT, and Crowder to Chicago for Jimmy Butler? A guy who by any measure is better than Kyrie? And they get to keep the picks next year? So they build around Butler and probably two top 5 picks in next year’s draft. Isn’t that better going forward than what they did?

    17. TheOakmanCometh

      The Brooklyn pick is 10 times more valuable than Melo. There is no reason why Cleveland would trade it for him, especially since they already have three forwards who are arguably better than Melo.

    18. Bruno Almeida

      @16

      Yeah, considering Butler is a superior player to Irving, his trade looks like highway robbery right now. The George one too, even tho I think he’s a bit overrated still.

      I think the Celtics will be fine for the next 2-3 years at least, they will win 50 games and probably even get the chance to be destroyed in the finals once or twice if Lebron does leave the east.

      I think they went with a half-assed plan to get the best of both worlds: contend now expecting Kyrie and Hayward to be stars on the level of Lebron, Kawhi, Harden / Paul, Durant / Curry / Draymond, which I don’t think it’s happening, and building for the future and expecting the young guys they already have (Tatum and Brown mostly) to become those superstars.

      The way I see it, it’s highly unlikely that both scenarios will yield the superstar production that would be necessary to win a title.

    19. Donnie Walsh

      I hate the trade for Boston (but love it as a Knicks fan). They’re officially a 44-48 win team

      Officially? So, like, it’s now April, and the celtics went 44-48? That’s cool. Can I ask if Trump is also officially not the president anymore, as well? Cause if so, I don’t really care what this NBA season holds. I’ll be happy.

    20. nygrec

      Melo is sitting on his NTC. The only thing that may happen is a buy out if D Wade joins Cleveland (widely speculated move) and Anthony finally decides to chase a a ring.

    21. Frank O.

      I think this is a brilliant move.
      I think Thomas is a great scoring PG, but he is small and will break down. 5’9
      Irving is a centerpiece. I believe Kyrie could be a guard that approaches Chris Paul-like performance when it is his team. He’s still a flat-Earther and I don’t like kids listening to him, but I think Ainge sees a chance to have a guy with Paul-like potential at age 25.
      In fact, they are remarkably similar players if you look at Chris Paul when he was 25. TS% and eFG% very similar. The difference is Kyrie was about 3 assists/36 fewer than Paul, but I think that is in part because Kyrie played with Lebron, who had 8.3 assists/36.

      Watch. I bet Kyrie gets 9 assists/36 next year.

    22. d-mar

      The difference is Kyrie was about 3 assists/36 fewer than Paul, but I think that is in part because Kyrie played with Lebron, who had 8.3 assists/36.

      Yeah, but on the flip side playing with LeBron makes everyone better, including Kyrie.

      I don’t see Kyrie changing his style much, in fact, with Boston he may become more ball dominant. But I guess we’ll see what happens.

    23. GoNyGoNyGo

      Frankly, I’m happy about the trade. It’s not a short-term happy, but a long-term happy. I think this helps prevent Boston from restocking and we need to focus on passing Boston to get to our first objective, winning the Atlantic. I believe that this weakens them in the long run, but I’m sure that Danny Ainge knows more than me.

    24. Bruno Almeida

      @24

      Offense is still pretty much 50% of the time Kyrie will spend on the court, and he couldnt be further from Chris Paul at any age on the other 50% of the court. I think theres no way he ever reaches Paul levels.

    25. iserp

      I’m not sure how Morey can sweeten the pot in a way that doesn’t hurt his team beyond Melo’s value. Suggestions?

      Ryan Anderson would be valuable to a few teams trying to reach the playoffs, the Hornets for example. If he can turn him into some picks, then it could work.

      Ryan Anderson, Eric Gordon -> Hornets
      Marvin Williams, Jeremy Lamb, CHO 1st, HOU 2nd -> NYK
      Melo -> Houston

    26. iserp

      On the Irving trade, I think it is a middling trade for Celtics, and nice for Cleveland.

      – It makes sense for the Celtics to cash in their assets and try to get to the finals as soon as possible. However, they are losing Crowder in a position of need. I guess they are really confident int Tatum, but i find it too risky.
      – I want to point out that it was impossible for the Celtics to make the trade without including Crowder. It is hard to trade cheap assets fairly, because you need to match salaries. Perhaps Ainge should have made some “intermediate” trades to raise the total payroll of the team. If you look at the Mavs under Mark Cuban, they usually had a really high payroll, but they always could make trades combining assets+expiring contracts.
      -Brooklyns 1st is a really nice asset for Cleveland, and Crowder is a versatile forward that will help the depth of the team. However, I dont think Isaiah Thomas is a good point guard for the team, he might be a better 3pt shooter but he is even worse defensively than Kyrie. He will dominate when LeBron is on the bench, but I dont think he will be able to contribute much when Lebron is on the court.

    27. Z-man

      Yeah, it can be argued that Ainge got burned for being too reluctant to pull the trigger when Butler and George were available. Looks like he could have had either for the same price, and then drafted accordingly. Butler in particular would have been a great fit for them.

    28. Bruno Almeida

      The Celtics could be starting this season with Ball, Butler, Hayward as their core, now they’re stuck with Kyrie, Hayward and hoping either Jaylen Brown or Jayson Tatum are ready to contribute now. I’m skeptical.

    29. Donnie Walsh

      The Celtics could be starting this season with Ball, Butler, Hayward as their core, now they’re stuck with Kyrie, Hayward and hoping either Jaylen Brown or Jayson Tatum are ready to contribute now. I’m skeptical.

      Remember: the celtics still have all sorts of picks coming their way over the next two years. Lakers, Grizzlies, Kings, Sixers, etc… (it’s virtually impossible to keep track of because of various protections).

      So, yeah, this trade could be a step back in 2017. But I think ainge was preparing for life after Thomas because he didn’t want to max a 5’9″ 32 year old based on a small sample of elite play. That’s good management.

      (That said, Butler is, for sure, better player and fit for Boston, but it’s possible that Chicago didn’t want to deal him to another eastern team? It’s kind of the only explanation as to why Ainge didn’t blow Minny out of the water)

    30. ClashFan

      I’m very happy to see this trade. No more Kyrie to the Knicks, at least until he opts out in 2 years.

      Pretty solid for Cleveland, about the best they could expect. The trade probably both appeases Lebron for this year but also can kickstart a youth movement/rebuild if he leaves after this season.

      The surprise is Ainge letting the Brooklyn pick go. Does he feel that BK will be better than expected this year? Doesn’t Boston still have its own pick?

    31. DS

      Kyrie could be a guard that approaches Chris Paul-like

      Kyrie will not be a defender like CP3 in this lifetime.

    32. Cock Jowles, #1 Usage Soaker

      In fact, they are remarkably similar players if you look at Chris Paul when he was 25. TS% and eFG% very similar. The difference is Kyrie was about 3 assists/36 fewer than Paul, but I think that is in part because Kyrie played with Lebron, who had 8.3 assists/36.

      http://bkref.com/tiny/AGyVk

      I don’t know if I’d characterize them as remarkably similar. Paul is an all-timer, Irving is just good. With the exception of TS% (and league TS% was worse overall in 2011 than 2017, making Paul’s .578 more more valuable than Irving’s .580), Paul is better in everything by a significant margin.

      Irving’s 25% worse at rebounding, 60% worse at steals, 40% worse at assisting, and turns the ball over, likely due to his propensity to ISO instead of PnR. I guess I’d say “less productive” than “worse,” but the point remains: that’s a huge gulf, man.

    33. ess-dog

      Yeah, I don’t love this for the Celts. Kyrie will play worse there and their athleticism has gone down significantly (although they’ve certainly got more outside shooting now).

      I’m actually pretty amped about the KP/Frank (and to some extent Willy) core. Despite all the ridic DSJ hype, I think we did the right thing drafting Frank and could now have 2 potential matchup nightmares in the future starting lineup.

      I’m happy to move Melo for Anderson if they throw in a promising young player and a top 15 pick. Then we can trade O’Quinn for a pick and settle in on a full rebuild. You can’t get distracted by guys like Kyrie… think 5 years down the line.

      Having Noah and Anderson for a while might even be a good thing, as the Knicks wouldn’t be able to barf up more THJ-type contracts – they could let the kids develop instead.

    34. thenamestsam

      Remember: the celtics still have all sorts of picks coming their way over the next two years. Lakers, Grizzlies, Kings, Sixers, etc… (it’s virtually impossible to keep track of because of various protections).

      The Celtics are still in undeniably pretty great shape. They have a very good team right now where the core is still awfully young, nice extra future assets, a good coach, etc. 25+ teams would happily switch places with them. This trade is pretty bad for them I think, but it is worth it to see the big picture also. They’re very well positioned going forward.

    35. Brian Cronin

      And that’s without Brown or Tatum taking a leap, which is certainly possible (especially Tatum).

    36. Cock Jowles, #1 Usage Soaker

      I don’t know about you guys, but if I have $10,000 in my checking account, dropping $1,000 in cash on the ground is still going to be dumb. Maybe not as dire as if I had $1,001 left, but it’s still dumb.

      You need as many picks as possible to rebuild through the draft. And if you’re a top-10 team and plan to be for the foreseeable future, the possibility of having a top-5 unprotected pick (and the Nets will be bad again) is so goddamn valuable that I just don’t see how you flip it unless it’s bringing back a legit superstar. Kyrie is not that kind of player when Harden, Curry, Westbrook, Giannis and Paul round out the top tier of PGs.

    37. Jack Bauer

      The deal looks bad because Boston included that unprotected Nets pick. That pick may or may not be as high as has been predicted. Although the Nets will suck, they made some moves to pick up a few decent players and might not be the dumpster fire they looked to be a year ago. The east is pretty awful right now so who knows, we’ll have to wait and see. All around I think Kyrie is better than IT, who is injured right now, so Boston has improved, if only by a little. They also got out from under the decision on maxing out Thomas after next year which is a positive as well. While they could have probably done better, I agree with the comments that they still are young, talented , and in very good shape going forward. Special bonus. they saved the Knicks from doing something stupid.

    38. stratomatic is despondent

      I don’t like the deal for the Celtics in terms of value, but I can see it strategically.

      To build a serious contender you need star players. If you think Kyrie is the best player in the trade (Ainge does) you just upgraded a key spot on the team, got younger, and probably got way more upside. IT was so much better last year than previously he may revert back to the mean while Kyrie keeps getting better.

      Giving up both Crowder & the pick are the value part of the equation I don’t like, but once you have your stars (the hard part) guys like Crowder can be found (I think Crowder is very good and on a bargain contract). Giving up the pick also hurts, but Brooklyn is going to be more competitive this year so it may not be a top 5 pick.

      I wouldn’t have made the deal, especially given all the deals Ainge let slip by, but it’s not a disaster strategically.

    39. Bruno Almeida

      Yeah, it really does not matter much of Boston still has a bunch of assets, they just wasted away a significant portion of their “guaranteed” assets in Bradley, Crowder, Nets pick, potentially Fultz or Ball to build this team.

      Lakers, Grizzlies, Sixers or Kings picks are not even surely great assets in a vacuum, specially since the Grizz are going to be decent for a while and all other 3 teams are bound for eventual leaps in terms of production / making win now moves.

      The way I see it, either Tatum or Brown becomes the next superstar, or they’ll have a team capped at an ECF run. Of course the Celtics are still in a good position, they are in a better position than pretty much every eastern team, it just doesn’t seem good enough to win a title which is obviously their goal.

    40. yellowboy90

      How good will IT be next to LeBron? If he is healthy he could put up even better numbers.

      Also, if I’m Boston I’d go after Nerlens to get some rebounding and defense.

    41. Frank O.

      Cock Jowles

      With the exception of TS% (and league TS% was worse overall in 2011 than 2017, making Paul’s .578 more more valuable than Irving’s .580), Paul is better in everything by a significant margin.

      Good perspective. I did not go that far. Thanks.
      As for the D, true. I was focused on offensive output. I think Kyrie will show improvement. He is 25. There is still time to improve.
      I was careful in saying I thought Irving could improve to a level where he “approaches” Chris Paul-like play.
      Paul maybe one of the greatest to play the position.
      But if Irving can boost his TS% and his assists, plus focus more on defense, he may not be Paul, but he will be very, very good, if not great.

      But I get the defensive liabilities. Thanks

    42. stratomatic is despondent

      @43

      I’m not disagreeing with conventional wisdom about the deal. I’m explaining what I think is the thinking. Let’s say we rate players on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being the best. To win a championship, you need a few 1s and 2s. Those are the toughest players to get.

      If you trade away a boatload of 3s, 4s, and 5s you are giving away a ton of value. A lot of teams (including the Knicks) wish they had those players. But if you are getting a rare 1 or 2 in return you may be better off because it’s way easier to get those 3s and 4s than to ever get a 1 or 2.

      Ainge must thinks Kyrie/Hayward are on their way to becoming a 1s or 2s (Tatum also). He doesn’t care about giving away a bunch of 3s and 4s to get them because he still has a cupboard full of players and picks to develop into solid 3s and 4s like Bradley and Crowder.

      Whether it works or not is dependent on whether he is right about Kyrie, Hayward, and Tatum (and some of the other role players that will get promoted into bigger jobs).

    43. plenty

      Yeah, I was having similar thoughts on the trade yesterday. Sure he waited a bit too long, but the sunk cost of not making a move was too great. The last thing you want is a bunch of middling assets that never really push it over the top. Will Kyrie be that player? Maybe maybe not, but I’d say he has a better chance of developing under a more disciplined coach/system.

    44. Donnie Walsh

      I know KB is in “Kyrie sucks” mode because there was a chance he’d come to the Knicks, and in that case he would suck, obviously. But now we have to take our knick hats off and put on our Celtic hats. They can bank on the positives happening.

      Irving is 25, was healthy last year, and has had his highest PER, pts/36, FT%, FG%, and Usage last year. There is an extremely good chance that he improves on his past season while Isaiah Thomas regresses on his outlier of a year. Since neither played defense at a high level, the trade is at worst a wash at PG, and at best a net gain this year and beyond for Boston. (Of you want to say that Crowder is worth 9+ wins, fine, we’ll just have to wait and see, but I’d be surprised if Boston actually plays to a worse record).

      Question: has a team ever traded its star player (Thomas) that wasn’t demanding a trade? In his absolute prime? To a conference rival?

      Thomas was exceedingly popular in Boston as the heart and soul of that team. I think it took balls to trade him. I look forward to seeing how this plays out.

    45. Bruno Almeida

      @46

      Sure, I agree. I’d say its pretty clear what Hayward is at this point in his career, a solid 2/3 using your rating system, so if Irving and Tatum can eventually be 1/2s it’s a solid chance and people will be praising Ainge in the future.

      I just think it’s to steep of a price to pay for the eventual chance that nothing will go wrong and those players will develop as needed, if he was so desperate to make a splash Jimmy Butler has a bigger chance of being a bona fide star than Irving for example. We have basically never seen a player improve or even keep his performance levels after they leave a Lebron team, granted the Irving case is quite unique, but I wouldnt bank on it.

      If Irving feels the pressure to carry this team and starts hero balling out, which is not an unlikely scenario at all, his numbers might suffer even more and it will be tough to compensate for that with a poor supporting cast. The Celtics will be relying a lot on unknowns from the get go, dudes like Brown, Tatum, Smart, Baynes to provide depth and adequate minutes. If we recall what happened with Kyrie and Hayward in the last playoffs against GSW, theyll need a lot of help and I’m not sure the help is going to be there.

    46. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      The deeper I dive into the overall Celtics off season is the worse it looks. You lose Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder, and Isaiah Thomas to replace them with Marcus Morris (he’s not good), Gordon Hayward (he’s really good) and Kyrie Irving (who, while good, isn’t a good bet to be as insanely good as Isaiah Thomas was last year). The Celtics took a step back this summer and they’re worse off. Also, Ante Zizic posted great numbers in Euroleague play last year and is only 20. Kyrie Irving might end up winning an MVP trophy (the storyline is there and the East is weak), but the Cavs could win 60 games. By WP48, the Cavs got around 11 wins better and by WS/48 the Cavs got 10 wins better, and we haven’t even added Ante Zizic’s potential wins into the pot. AND THEY GAVE UP A LOTTERY PICK. This was a terrible trade. Even if Kyrie Irving turns out to be a double digit win share/wins produced guy, the Celtics would be worse off defensively and they still can’t rebound. In fact, the guy they brought in to fix the rebounding was added to the Irving trade. That’s a lot to be giving up for a guy who isn’t a bona fide superstar.

    47. johnnyhoops

      Think about how sweet it will be 2 years from now when we sign Kyrie away from the evil Celtics as an UFA and begin our championship run.

    48. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      @51 that’s the best part about this whole thing. I can easily see Kyrie Irving in a Knicks jersey after KP, Willy, Frank, and TH2 form a formidable line up in New York.

    49. Bruno Almeida

      Id be damn fine with Kyrie if he’s going to be sharing offensive possessions with Doncic.

      The Slovenian Lebron will be what Kyrie need to win another chip!

    50. johnnyhoops

      There has to be a way to pry that pick from Cleveland for Melo plus Lee or other vets. There just has to be a way.

    51. english_knick

      sorry Johnny – there is no way. At least, not one that doesn’t involve KP going the other way.

      What logic could possibly be constructed for Cleveland to do that? It would be the definition of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

    52. Bruno Almeida

      The issue is also that the Cavs do not have the contracts to match Melo now. They would have to do something like JR + Crowder or Shump + Frye just to match Melo and add the pick to that, destroying their depth and giving up the pick… it just makes zero sense unless there’s a 3rd team involved, and that seems hard to believe as no 3rd team has been willing to help the Knicks + Rockets deal.

    53. Ntilakilla

      Celtics fans are the worst. They have to be one of the most ungrateful fanbases in the league. You can add this one to the way they ran Bill Russell out of town.

      this man played a game for y'all a day after his sister died https://t.co/DTSpHV1KOr— Micah Peters (@micahpeters_) August 23, 2017

    54. plenty

      time will ultimately tell if this is a terrible trade, but i highly doubt things will blow up that bad that kyrie would willingly go to the knicks, of all teams. that would be cold as hell, and he would have to watch his back every time he played in boston! those fans are the worst

    55. Bruno Almeida

      Archie Goodwin is incredibly only 23 still, so not a terrible idea, but Jack is completely done, can’t see how he would be useful.

    56. ClashFan

      I can’t see Melo to Cleveland at this time unless, again, Love comes in exchange.

      How about this one? Lee and OQ to Cleveland for Shumpert and Frye? The Knicks would want something else, of course. Ask for the Nets pick; then when they say no, suggest giving the Knicks swap rights for that pick next year? Can a team even offer swap rights on a pick that is not originally its own?

      Cleveland improves its depth (Lee is way better than Shumpert, Korver, or Calderon), and the Knicks double their chances for a top 5 pick next year, plus get out of the 3rd remaining year of Lee’s deal.

    57. KnickfaninNJ

      Why is Archie Goodwin available? Three teams have signed him and then waived him despite good stats (for his age). He first played with the Suns and played for two seasons with intermittent assignments to D league. Then he signed a multiyear contract with the Pelicans, but was waived two weeks later in November of 2016. Then he signed two ten day contracts with the Nets in April of this year, followed by a multi year contract. But in July he was waived by the Nets. So three teams have tried him out, signed him to what are probably low end contracts and then waived him. I would want to know why before hiring him, because his actual advanced stats are very good for someone who’s finding it hard to get traction in the NBA.

    58. KnickfaninNJ

      Clashfan,

      I think you are basically proposing two useful players for two non useful players in the hopes of getting another pick and salary cap flexibility two years from now. It’s not a bad goal, but not a strategy I think the Knicks will do. What is more, the Knicks would take in too much money for what they are sending out (I checked in the trade machine). I also think the Cavaliers would like the better players, but don’t think they will give up the Nets pick for them. Their stated goal is to prepare for the future as well as be good in the present, and this gives up a key part of their future.

    59. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      The Cavaliers could trade Love to Charlotte while Charlotte gives us MKG and Melo goes to Cleveland. This way Melo starts, Cleveland doesn’t give up any assets, and Cleveland can sell a plan where they can stay competitive while shedding salary. Melo, IT, and LeBron would all expire next summer so Cleveland could truly rebuild.

    60. KnickfaninNJ

      Bruno, Thanks for the pointer. It’s an interesting read. Seems like he’s incredibly athletic, but can’t shoot. I agree he’s only 23, but his lack of progress in any area is a big red flag. I’m with Jowles on this one. I think his shooting stats really reflect the player that he is. We could give a straight D-league contract (not a two way one), if we want to be the fourth team to try him. Admittedly, the last two teams didn’t spend much time coaching him, since they were very short stays at each one. I’d rather recruit Zhao Jiwei, who is probably one of the four best point guards in China, although he doesn’t start for his team, since the best point guard in China plays for the same team.

    61. Bruno Almeida

      I mean, why not? The kid is 23 and hasn’t exactly played for model organizations, so maybe there’s potential still there, and he played under Hornacek in his first 3 seasons, so probably there’s a connection there.

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