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Wednesday, April 24, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2017.05.28)

  • [NYPost] Phil Jackson’s closest adviser knows what champions look like
    (Saturday, May 27, 2017 8:01:12 PM)

    Unheralded out of the small school, Arkansas-Little Rock, Derek Fisher played 18 NBA seasons and won five NBA titles with the Lakers — proving to be a leader, clutch 3-point shooter, rabid and prideful defender, playing hurt and playing “bigger than his size’’ — all attributes found in Clarence Gaines Jr.’s scouting report filed in…

  • [NYPost] Meet Phil Jackson’s Knicks draft guru — a respected ‘odd duck’
    (Saturday, May 27, 2017 7:39:46 PM)

    Clarence Gaines Jr. walked into the Quest gymnasium in Chicago for the draft combine earlier this month wearing a brown/beige/orange-checkered African gown known as a dashiki. Gaines avoided all personal contact, darting through a phalanx of scouts, general managers and media. He silently took a seat in the metal bleachers. He sat alone, as is…

  • [NYPost] How Knicks and Nets unwittingly created the NBA juggernauts
    (Saturday, May 27, 2017 11:37:59 AM)

    With June approaching, that emptiness every New York basketball fan has felt since 2003 is returning. Here come the NBA Finals. Where are the Knicks and Nets? Right, lounging. The Nets last made the Finals in 2003 and lost to the Spurs, the team that beat the Knicks in their most recent Finals run in…

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    45 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.05.28)

    1. Accidentank 2017

      Clarence Gaines Jr was responsible for Scottie Pippen and Kristaps Porzingis?

      Phil Jackson might have been worth the $12M just by getting this guy to come work for him. I’m a lot less worried about picking 8th if he’s the guy behind our draft.

    2. DS

      Phil Jackson might have been worth the $12M just by getting this guy to come work for him. I’m a lot less worried about picking 8th if he’s the guy behind our draft.

      Agree.. although it also makes me think that it’s more likely that Frank Ntilinka will be the pick. “Outside the box” and all.

    3. Accidentank 2017

      Super athletic high IQ tenacious defender Donovan Mitchell might be the pick there, too. His shot selection at Louisville seems to be a function of that offense in general (and it didn’t stop him from posting a .580 TS% in ACC play). Mitchell feels like a triangle point guard. If Ntilikina is the pick there I won’t be surprised, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we went with Mitchell either.

    4. english_knick

      To me, the same thing applies about Mitchell as applied in the discussion about Diallo and in the sixers debate about Monk. If we want him, there’s an arbitrage opportunity because others don’t rate him as high. So by all means pick him, but trade down to do it and nab a second asset, even if only a second rounder…

    5. english_knick

      I’ve been wracking my brains for trades for Melo that could be done at the draft rather than after. I think Boston, clippers have to happen later in the summer… because it’s so tied up to CP for the clippers and other trade/FA options for Boston.

      There are two teams I think we should be targeting – Miami at 14 and the Bulls at 16.

      If Miami came calling you assume Melo would listen? With their newfound cap space post-Bosh they could essentially do Winslow and the pick for Melo. I’d definitely take that

      Bulls are trickier. I think Melo would ok it to play with wade and rondo (and of course butler). If they get really creative, they could essentially take Melo into cap space by trading is the pick and pretty much all of their young talent (Portis, Valentine, Payne). If that was too much, they could instead build something around. S&T for Mirotic plus the pick and a second asset – maybe a big one year deal for mirotic to make the salaries work but limit our commitment?

    6. ess-dog

      I think they want Monk but won’t trade up for him, and he should be gone by 8. If they stay at 8, it’s probably going to be Frank, since Dallas likes him too and he doesn’t have AAU disease. But that could change if a too-good-to-pass-up big drops (Isaac). I think Mitchell is their safety pick in case Frank, Fox and Monk are all gone by 8.

    7. Accidentank 2017

      If Fox, Frank, and Monk are all gone that means somebody slipped.

      Fultz
      Ball
      Monk
      Jackson
      Fox
      Frank
      Tatum

      In this scenario, Isaac and Smith Jr fell out of the top 8 where taking Mitchell would be foolish. Mitchell is currently ranked between 11 and 12 on most draft boards available to us. If we take Mitchell, it’s because we have him rated higher than Frank and Monk. We’d take him in this scenario:

      Fultz
      Ball
      Smith Jr
      Jackson
      Fox
      Tatum
      Isaac

      Then it’s between Monk, Mitchell, and Ntilikina. I really don’t see a plausible situation where the board falls and we don’t take Ntilikina. He fits the mold of everything we’ve been about in the past 3 years, but I worry myself about the kid’s ceiling. Part of me sees a shorter Giannis (the way I see Steph Curry as a shorter KD), but the other part of me sees a taller, kinder Pat Beverley. I guess that’s a good player, but you kind of want more than a potential stud role player for the pain and suffering of a 30 win season. With Mitchell I see more. I see a leader on defense and a kid with more offensive game than he’s given credit for.

      Then again, the culture in France Pro A basketball is they pull young guys for making mistakes so Frank doesn’t have the freedom Mitchell, Monk, or Smith Jr had. It doesn’t excuse his poor finishing around the rim but it explains why his numbers are so pedestrian.

    8. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      I get we all want a star, but a Pat Beverly esque player with the #8 pick is an absolutely great outcome

    9. Totes McGoats

      Clarence Gaines Jr was responsible for Scottie Pippen and Kristaps Porzingis?

      Phil Jackson might have been worth the $12M just by getting this guy to come work for him. I’m a lot less worried about picking 8th if he’s the guy behind our draft

      Agreed. This is definitely the draft that will emphatically prove his worth and cement our faith in him if he nails this draft. I love that his scouting report on Fisher proved to be true while no one else would draft him as high as he got drafted. I would love to see his actual scouting report on DSJ, Ntilikina, Monk, and Mitchell.

    10. Totes McGoats

      A thought just hit me:
      Suppose we end up drafting Monk, who hasn’t proven to be a lead guard type?
      Assuming he starts, with no Lee not being known as a playmaker as well, I can see us keeping Melo- wich gives us a starting 5 of Willy/KP/Melo/Lee/Monk. Not a bad starting lineup. I’d rather see KP at the 5 with a starting 4 that plays D, like KOQ- but he’s more of a 5 and if Noah’s healthy he gets minutes and I’d rather him play off the bench with KOQ than start alongside KP.

    11. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @10 That team would be scary both offensively and defensively for opposite reasons.
      But I kinda like it.

    12. Z-man

      I disagree on the Patrick Beverley front. It’s a consolation prize outcome but not great. Beverley is a small step above a journeyman player. You can virtually guarantee that several players significantly better than Beverley will be selected after #8. In another draft that would be an OK outcome, but I’d be very disappointed if that’s the level of player we got in this draft.

    13. english_knick

      Better players than Beverley will be drafted after 8. But at least one that is worse will be drafted before 8. I want a star too, but a decent long -term starter is,m probably par or slightly above for 8…

    14. thenoblefacehumper

      Beverley is a small step above a journeyman player.

      Obviously I hope the player we draft is better than Beverly, but no offense, this is a pretty insane take. Beverly has been a very reliable 2 way player for a while now and I’m almost positive the average return on the 8th pick is worse than him. Perhaps significantly so.

      I mean, he probably would’ve been the 3rd or so best player on the Knicks this past season. That doesn’t exactly say a lot, but we’d be lucky to have a player like him.

    15. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      He’s been a well above average player for a while now

      Mileage may vary on just how good you think Pat is, but let’s put it another way: if Frank turns into Beverly but taller and longer, then imo he’ll be a really good value at 8.

    16. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      I think that Gaines must love Frank Mason too. He was a lights out 3 point shooter last year….a better shooter than all of them… strong body, great leaper, tenacious defender, a leader with vision. He’s the same height as CP3, Lillard, Kemba. 2 inches taller than IT. I think he’d be perfect for our system too. I’d like to grab him with our #44 pick if not sooner. Like a cross between Conley and CP3.

    17. ess-dog

      I like DSJ but a) the ACL injury is a real worry and b) nothing has shown me the Knicks like him. I do give him a break for “taking plays off ” because he had to test that injury throughout the year. His defense isn’t great, but neither is Monk’s. I also think Mason could be a real steal in the 2nd round.

    18. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Honestly, I like Mason better than all of the higher touted PGs . He’s built like a tank and has smarts and a great motor. His elite 3 pt shooting (47%) is off the charts. I could actually see him starting for us next season too. I’d use my #8 pick on the absolute BPA whether its a long guard like Frank or if its a wing like OG or a big like Collins.

    19. kevin5318

      I love the idea of a 4 inches taller Beverley at #8. We could have two game changing defenders at the guard and center positions with Frank and KP.

      If Smith, Isaac and Fox are gone by #8 then getting a high quality role player like Frank would be a fine consolation. He’d have to actually live up to the hype of course.

    20. lavor postell

      Ojeleye’s lack of defensive contributions in rebounds, steals and blocks is really concerning imo.

      D.J. Wilson would be very intriguing in the late first. A poor man’s Jonathan Isaac, but brings a lot of the same versatility and defensive potential to the table although his defensive rebounding is a weakness.

    21. stratomatic

      RIP Gregg Allman, one of my very favorite musicians ever.

      +1

      Clearly a lottery pick.

    22. stratomatic

      I really wish we had 2 1st round picks. We could fundamentally transform this team with 2 picks.

    23. Z-man

      “Obviously I hope the player we draft is better than Beverly, but no offense, this is a pretty insane take. Beverly has been a very reliable 2 way player for a while now and I’m almost positive the average return on the 8th pick is worse than him. Perhaps significantly so.”

      And I think you saying that Patrick Beverley would be an “absolutely great outcome” is an insane take. Sure, it’s far from the worst case scenario, but absolutely great?? There is not a single GM in the league that would trade the #8 pick in this draft for Beverley. He’s a very low usage, low asst% PG, essentially a 3 and D undersized 2. He’s very good defensively, but at #8 in a VERY deep draft by all accounts, I want and expect better.

    24. lavor postell

      I really wish we had 2 1st round picks. We could fundamentally transform this team with 2 picks.

      This is the right draft to acquire picks for and I think we have some assets that could net us a late first. It’s up to Phil to make it happen and if he doesn’t I would consider it a major failure.

    25. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Get me Frank and Frank and I’ll be very happy. (Ntilikina and Mason).
      Because Mason is 23 years old who knows he might be available at pick #44 but I would move up to get him.

    26. kevin5318

      Yeah but Z-man we’re talking about a version of Beverley who’s taller, younger with a 7 foot wingspan.

    27. Brian Cronin

      This is the right draft to acquire picks for and I think we have some assets that could net us a late first. It’s up to Phil to make it happen and if he doesn’t I would consider it a major failure.

      But because it IS the right draft to get another first rounder (which does seem to be clear), other teams will be valuing them highly, no? And since the Knicks already couldn’t deal KOQ or Lee for first rounders during the season, I doubt that that will change now.

      Then again, I also didn’t think anyone would trade a first rounder for THJ, so crazier things have happened. :)

    28. Z-man

      “Yeah but Z-man we’re talking about a version of Beverley who’s taller, younger with a 7 foot wingspan.”

      Then he’s no longer Beverley, is he? I mean, a version of Isaiah Thomas that’s 6’2″ is no longer Isaiah Thomas.

      I’m specifically saying that if whoever we draft has an NBA career very similar to that of Patrick Beverly, I’d be disappointed. If he’s like Beverley, only a better passer, or shooter, or rebounder, or defender, then it’s a different conversation.

      I also think it’s not relevant to look at the history of picks taken at a certain number. There’s so many variables to consider that it’s a useless exercise. Myles Turner was drafted #11 and will likely have a better NBA career than everyone drafted above him not named Karl-Anthony Towns (and maybe KP.) I’m not talking about the freaky 2nd rounder that becomes an all-time great. I’m talking about guys that are considered top-10-20 players in the draft, but teams are afraid of not going chalk and reaching (Kawhi Leonard comes to mind, he would not have been a “reach” to pick in the top-10 in that weakish draft, but still went right around where he was slated to go. Who is that guy? Is it Frank? Collins? Jarrett Allen? Markkanen?

    29. geehee

      I love Frank Mason, but I can’t help but think a Josh Hart might be a better fit. A do-it-all SG with great defensive instincts.

    30. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Harts good but Thornwell put up better numbers with worse teammates on higher usage with similar efficiency over at South Carolina. He’s also 10 pounds heavier with a longer wingspan. And his defense is positively elite whereas Hart’s is “merely” very good. I’d take Thornwell over Hart.

    31. nicos

      Frank averages 4.5 fouls per 36 in the French league- that doesn’t bode well considering the caliber of athlete he’s going to be facing is going to increase dramatically. I could understand it more if he was getting tons of steals/blocks but 1.5 steals and .4 blocks per 36 while fouling at a high rate doesn’t exactly scream future all-NBA defender to me. And 2.7 assists vs. 1.7 turnovers per 36 doesn’t look too good either if you’re thinking of him as a future point. Most of the hype around him is from his performance in the 18 and under tournament last year- he hasn’t done anything this season to warrant being a high lottery pick. I know he’s really young and has great length but those numbers sure make it look like there’s a pretty good chance he’ll be a bust.

    32. Jack Bauer

      Small sample size, but sign me up for Thornwell too. He looked like a player in the tournament based on what I saw. I’d be ok with Hart too, does a lot of things well.

    33. Sir Robin

      @33. I agree, Z-man. That’s why for my money we go best player available. The 7 FA on our roster are a direct result of years of a scorched earth roster policy. The cupboard is still bare, so restock the roster and balance it later. See Eddie Donovan and the Bellamy trade in 1968 for how it’s done. The value of each draft pick, roster spot and cap dollar must be considered very carefully.

    34. KnickfaninNJ

      Draft picks are over valued relative to what they actually get on average because they give a chance at a game changing player at a relatively low cost. Of course, I’m hoping for a game changer and a lot of potential picks seem to have that possibility. But I would be happy to get someone who is a bench player this year and a competent starter after that. Then we would have three starters gotten through the draft, KP, WH and the new guy. That would be a big improvement over past Knick teams.

    35. Z-man

      I would never be “happy” with a bench player at #8. I’d accept it as a reasonably probable positive outcome, and would be happy that it wasn’t a bust, but unless most of the players picked 3-4 picks before and especially after we pick turn out to be league-average or worse, I’ll be pissed on some level.

    36. Accidentank 2017

      Sindarius Thornwell is going to suck at the next level. He has bad shooting mechanics and he has a total of zero lift.

      You know, as bad as I want Luka Doncic there are so many threats to the Knicks being a bottom 3 team next year. For one, Joakim Noah might give us 2,000 minutes. Then what if KP and Willy Hernangomez improve significantly? A Ricky Rubio trade? No more Melo or Derrick Rose? I don’t see where the lack of production is coming from for us to land Wonder Boy. The Knicks were a 31 win team this year because Melo, Noah, and Derrick Rose gave us maybe 1/3 of what we needed from them. I really can’t see a situation where we are among the worst teams in the league next year.

      I was so ready for a 25 win season where Doncic is at the end of the tunnel. Only way that happens is if we trade Melo to the Clippers for Crawford and Rivers.

    37. KnickfaninNJ

      I dont mean you get a bench player who is always a bench player. Hernengomez was a bench player, but i expect he will be better than that in the future. Would you be happy getting someone of his quality at #8?

      Any point guard we is unlikely to be a starter right away. Because they take a while to develop

    38. Totes McGoats

      You know what’s encouraging? KOQ. Remember how we all saw how he looked slimmer and more athletic last season? Well, I just saw video of him in a charity game down in Norfolk and- dare I say it- he looks leaner! I think he really wants that starting job this season. I say unless Phil can get a 1st for him, that KOQ stays no matter what.

    39. Z-man

      WHG is a GREAT second round draft and stash player. He’s bee a reasonably good outcome at #8 in this draft, assuming he continues to develop. But he never would have been considered at #8. Would I be OK with Ricky Rubio at #8? Sure, he’s not Jonny Flynn. But would I be lamenting for the rest of my life that we passed over Steph Curry to draft Rubio? Definitely. But don’t worry, Rubio is a hard worker and will improve his shooting any day now. Just like Shump will. And Mudiay, and Winslow, and Wiggins.

      This is probably the best odds we’ll have of having a future all-NBA player available to us in the draft. Hopefully Gaines can lead us to that guy.

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