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Monday, November 18, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2017.03.30)

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks fall to Heat and fall out of playoff contention
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 11:49:45 PM)

    Phil Jackson sat in his usual seat about 10 rows off the court, watching as the Knicks put the finishing touches on another lost season.

  • [NY Newsday] NBA agrees with Knicks doctors that Joakim Noah can resume playing, so suspension starts
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 8:46:02 PM)

    Joakim Noah should make his 2017-18 season debut for the Knicks in Game 13, if he’s healthy.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks legend Bernard King relates to Carmelo Anthony’s burden
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:00:00 PM)

    If anyone can relate to being a Knicks forward who must carry a heavy load on offense, it is Carmelo Anthony’s favorite player, Bernard King.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks podcast: Will Joakim Noah ever live up to expectations in New York?
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 1:01:02 PM)

    Joakim Noah’s signing was viewed widely as a disappointment this season. And that was before his 20-game suspension.

  • [NYDN] Sore knee keeps Derrick Rose out of Knicks’ lineup vs. Heat
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 9:25:07 PM)

    The aches and pains continue for Derrick Rose.

  • [NYDN] NBA says Joakim Noah healthy enough to start his 20-game ban
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 9:24:30 PM)

    Joakim Noah is officially healthy enough not to play.

  • [NYDN] Jackson still far from matching Riley’s front office success
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 9:22:49 PM)

    There’s little to no chance Phil Jackson would study Pat Riley’s management style and emulate his old coaching rival.

  • [NYDN] Knicks eliminated from playoffs with loss to Heat
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 9:02:45 PM)

    A “Let’s go Heat” chant broke out at Madison Square Garden late in the fourth quarter. The Knicks obliged.

  • [NYPost] Rose and Noah’s absences symbolic of a Knicks’ lost season
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 8:45:34 PM)

    Before the Knicks were eliminated from the playoffs Wednesday after their 105-88 blowout loss to the the Heat at the Garden, their two key offseason additions from the Bulls were missing. Mark their absences as symbolic in a season gone astray. Point guard Derrick Rose and center Joakin Noah were supposed to lift the Knicks…

  • [NYPost] Hubie Brown on where Kristaps Porzingis must improve as a player
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:39:15 PM)

    Former coach Hubie Brown, on hand for the 1984 Knicks reunion, once had a pretty good post man in Bill Cartwright. Though the league is moving away from post-ups strategically, Phil Jackson’s triangle is not. That is why Brown, now an NBA analyst for ESPN , stressed Porzingis has to get better in that area,…

  • [NYPost] Bill Cartwright: Cut the triangle talk, defense is Knicks’ problem
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:23:15 PM)

    Bill Cartwright, who won three championships playing for Phil Jackson in Chicago, cannot understand all the talk about the Knicks and the triangle offense. Cartwright said he believes the focus should be upon the Knicks’ donut defense. “This has always confused me. … You’re scoring 105 points a game. How many you giving up?” said…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo sees ‘writing on wall’ after Knicks get ousted from playoff hunt
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:07:23 PM)

    After the first practice of the preseason at West Point, Carmelo Anthony said, “I haven’t been excited like this in a long time to actually get going and get ready to create something.’’ What the Knicks created was a mess, and they were mathematically eliminated Wednesday from the playoff race in a 105-88 Garden meltdown…

  • [NYPost] Start the clock on Joakim Noah’s 20-game ban
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 6:42:25 AM)

    The countdown on Joakim Noah’s 20-game suspension imposed by the NBA on the Knicks center for violation of the league’s anti-drug policy starts Wednesday against Miami. An independent doctor confirmed the assessment of Knicks physicians that Noah, who underwent left knee surgery Feb. 27, is fit to play. Noah returned to practice on Tuesday, though it…

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks fall to Heat, officially eliminated from playoff race
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 10:12:08 PM)

    The Heat topped the Knicks, 105-88, on Wednesday night at MSG.

  • [SNY Knicks] Rose, Thomas out against Heat
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 5:47:05 PM)

    Derrick Rose and Lance Thomas will both be unavailable to play against the Heat on Wednesday night, the team announced.

  • [SNY Knicks] Tonight’s Game: Knicks vs. Heat
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 5:00:09 PM)

    The Knicks host the Heat on Wednesday night at 7:30 p.m.

  • [SNY Knicks] Noah medically cleared by NBA, will begin suspension Wednesday
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 12:00:30 PM)

    Noah will miss the final eight games of this season and the first 12 of the 2017-18 season.

  • [NYTimes] Joakim Noah’s Suspension Starts as Knicks Are Eliminated From Playoffs
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 2:35:30 AM)

    Hours before a loss knocked the Knicks from postseason contention, Noah was cleared medically to play, triggering the beginning of his suspension for taking a performance-enhancing substance.

  • [NYTimes] Steve Kerr Wins 200 Games Faster Than Any Other N.B.A. Coach
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 1:49:01 PM)

    The Warriors’ coach reached the milestone in 238 games, 32 games fewer than Phil Jackson did with the Chicago Bulls.

  • [NYTimes] Repeal of Bathroom Law Could Be Boon for North Carolina Sports Fans
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 7:27:04 AM)

    The law, which curbed protections for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, had led sports organizations such as the N.C.A.A. to cancel events in the state.

  • [NYTimes] Warriors 110, Spurs 98: Warriors Erase 22-Point Deficit to Beat Spurs and Build Lead in West
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 4:58:24 AM)

    Stephen Curry had 29 points as Golden State earned its first win over San Antonio this season.

  • [ESPN] Thursday’s Knicks News: Clock starts on next season after loss to Heat
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 5:02:35 AM)

    Thursday’s Knicks News: Clock starts on next season after loss to Heat

  • [ESPN] Bernard King: Carmelo Anthony ‘hasn’t had the cast around him’ to compete for a title with the Knicks
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 2:00:02 AM)

    Bernard King: Carmelo Anthony ‘hasn’t had the cast around him’ to compete for a title with the Knicks

  • [ESPN] Melo accepts role: ‘I see the writing on the wall’
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 1:18:00 AM)

    Melo accepts role: ‘I see the writing on the wall’

  • [ESPN] Noah cleared, but now his suspension kicks in
    (Wednesday, March 29, 2017 12:17:51 PM)

    Noah cleared, but now his suspension kicks in

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    81 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.03.30)

    1. chrisk06811

      well, at least game 1 of the suspension is behind us. I’m sure Noah is eager to getting back to getting paid for games he’s not playing in

    2. Frank

      didn’t watch any of the game last night. How did KP look? 20p 8r 2a 3b in 36 minutes on a TS of 57.5 looks pretty good, but naturally we got smoked so I’m not sure whether those were empty garbage time stats or what.

      Willy somehow only played 22 minutes.

    3. Mike Kurylo Post author

      Pearl was one of my favorites as well. I was so happy (but skeptical) when he joined the Knicks, but he graciously deferred to Clyde, who still speaks of all of his former teammates with reverence. I recall hearing Clyde, on different broadcasts, call each of Willis and Dick Barnett and Red Holzman his idol.

      You know, Clyde always speaks well of others. Listening to him speak so highly any of his contemporaries, you’d think he was a just a bit player surrounded by greats. He’ll lay down grand complements to the most mediocre player.

      Now that combination of greatness and humility is just as rare as his ability to play offense and defense, at least for this franchise.

    4. lavor postell

      KP was bad offensively in the first half, but much better in the 2nd half. Also he did a good job of contesting a few Dragic drives without fouling and even grabbed a few difficult defensive rebounds in traffic while boxing out.

      Is there any other coach in the league that routinely plays 2 or 3 of his starters entire quarters at a time and does it multiple times every game? He played KP the entire 1st quarter, Ron the entire 2nd quarter and Ron, Willy and KP the entire 3rd last night. He did this with Rose and Melo quite often for most of the year as well. I’d love to know how many other coaches do this and how often. I don’t even think Donovan does this with Westbrook very often, if at all.

      Willy looked good in his 23 minutes. Not sure why Hornacek decided he shouldn’t play more than that at all.

      Pretty clear that the entire focus of this draft needs to be about adding talent, speed and athleticism 1-3.

    5. Accidentank 2017

      I don’t think KP currently has the stamina to play entire quarters in an NBA game. He should play 7 minutes in the first quarter of each half and then play the final 9-10 minutes of the second quarter of each half. 32-34 minutes a night is what he should be seeing. He’s still anemic.

    6. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      I don’t think playing full quarters is a good idea even if your mpg stays the same because I’m pretty sure you’re more prone to injury during the game the more fatigued in-game you get and obviously concentrating the minutes will increase your fatigue on the back end

    7. DRed

      Obviously, the higher in the draft we get the better, but if we keep losing like this and wind up with a top 7 pick we should have a chance at drafting a very solid prospect

      Edited to allow for the possibility of us fucking it up

    8. Hubert

      Now that combination of greatness and humility is just as rare as his ability to play offense and defense, at least for this franchise.

      I swear De’Aaron Fox is going to be the second coming of Clyde. Or at least as close to it as we’ll ever see as knicks fans.

      I’m already emotionally preparing for the moment he is available when we draft but we pass on him in favor of someone who fits the triangle.

    9. Totes McGoats

      I swear De’Aaron Fox is going to be the second coming of Clyde. Or at least as close to it as we’ll ever see as knicks fans.

      I’m already emotionally preparing for the moment he is available when we draft but we pass on him in favor of someone who fits the triangle.

      I’ve quietly felt the same way about Fox, so I’m glad you said that. But..are we sure? That’s pretty high praise even though there are some strong similarities. Clyde’s IQ was off the charts on the court while Fox seems to win more on athleticism. Either way, it feels like it’s been ages since we’ve had a PG with that skill set. It’s always been defense heavy (Ward, Childs, Anthony, Harper), offense heavy (Vaseline, Francis, Lin, Felton, Jackson), or too-far-past-their-prime/good bus drivers (Bibby, Davis, Rivers, Duhon, Kidd). That said, it WOULD be nice to have a talent like Fox if he’s available. I like both he and Ntikilina just about the same.

    10. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      De’Aaron seems like a Clyde type player and I wouldn’t be surprised if his pro numbers kind of looked like Clydes (6 assists per 40 5 rebounds 27% assist percentage, 2 steals, 55 % TS and low foul rates doesn’t shoot threes–that’s kind of what Fox’s college numbers looked like, incidentally.) clydes basketball IQ is really high though but De’Aaron is no slouch either even though he’s not Clyde level in that department. it’s actually a pretty good comp, though Clyde obviously is an all timer so that’s more like his ceiling than his reasonable expectation

    11. chrisk06811

      My 2 fav comments from Clyde last night……Billy is terrible at defense (paraphrasing), and he thought Sasha was from Italy.

      Clyde has become an absolute living legend in the Phil Rizzuto mold. I have never heard anyone say a bad word about Clyde the announcer, the player, or the fashion icon.

    12. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Clyde also thought we were still playing the Pistons. He just gets better with age.

    13. Hubert

      I’m not even a little bit sure, Totes. He just reminds me of him physically and stylistically.

      I will say I was really impressed watching Fox on the court (in an admittedly small sample). He seems to have a really high basketball IQ and had a knack for always being in the right position on both ends of the floor.

      He’s a player I would love to have on our team next year.

      The last player I wanted this bad was Steph Curry, and I still remember being at the draft when he went one pick ahead of us.

    14. Hubert

      Oh.

      I probably should have looked at his season long shooting stats before I fell in love with him. Apparently he is a 15% shooter from 3.

      Of course, who knows if Clyde could have hit a three. It’s entirely possible that Fox could be the next Clyde and might not be a good player in the current NBA.

    15. d-mar

      Speaking of Knicks legends, I was at a Knicks season ticket holder’s event last night, and Bernard King was there (my favorite Knick ever) He could not have been more of a gentleman, posed for pictures with me and my buddies, and made sure to ask our names. Just a genuinely good guy.

      Also, for those of you old enough to remember him, Rory Sparrow was there also, and we had a great talk with him also. We were joking about how the announcer Jim Carvalis used to call him “Spiro”

    16. thenoblefacehumper

      I understand being wary of Fox’s shooting, especially in the current NBA, but I really just don’t see it being a huge issue. His FT% is actually better than that of both Smith and Fultz on a lot of attempts. The 3PT% is admittedly quite ugly (though it did improve as the season went on) but it’s based on just 69 total attempts. It’s hard for me to believe there’s a lot to discern from that. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s a decent three point shooter very quickly, and even if he never is I still think he can be a good player.

    17. lavor postell

      His mid-range seemed quite alright, especially from around the elbows when I watched him this year, but I can’t find a breakdown of his shooting from various ranges. His defensive potential helps to alleviate concerns I have about him as a shooter. His form doesn’t seem broke either so it’d be a risk worth taking.

    18. DRed

      De’Aaron seems like a Clyde type player and I wouldn’t be surprised if his pro numbers kind of looked like Clydes (6 assists per 40 5 rebounds 27% assist percentage, 2 steals, 55 % TS and low foul rates doesn’t shoot threes–that’s kind of what Fox’s college numbers looked like, incidentally.

      In Clyde’s prime the league average TS% was .511. This season it’s .552. Clyde was a very efficient scorer for his day. De’Aaron essentially has to become a good 3 point shooter if he wants to be Clyde 2.0.

    19. Hugo Busto

      yea the one positive to Fox’s projectory is that his FT% isn’t god awful. its what like 70%? i think that shows that he could potentially develop a outside shot

    20. Philmelo

      The chances Fox fixes that broken jumper are pretty low. I know people like to find the outlier to compare him to, but the chances are that a guy shooting 25% from a college 3 point line on two attempts a game won’t be a viable NBA 3 point shooter.

    21. JK47

      I think the only way Fox ends up here is if the Knicks win the #3 pick in the lotto. If they win #1 or #2, they’ll go with Fultz or Ball, and if they stay where they are at #6 there’s a very good chance Fox is off the board by then.

    22. Frank

      Really nice article outlining the Triangle offense and how crappy the Knicks are at running it – basically making the case that a) the Triangle isn’t really the problem; b) the players aren’t doing it right and the coaches aren’t being detail-oriented enough; and c) ultimately it’s Phil’s fault because this entire roster and coaching staff was put together by him.

      I guess it sort of converted me, at least to the point that the Triangle is not the main problem.

    23. Frank

      I think the only way Fox ends up here is if the Knicks win the #3 pick in the lotto. If they win #1 or #2, they’ll go with Fultz or Ball, and if they stay where they are at #6 there’s a very good chance Fox is off the board by then.

      Not totally sure about that — depends on who the teams ahead of them end up being. Fultz/Ball will likely go 1-2, but Josh Jackson and Tatum could easily go in the top 5 depending on the team, and if Philly ends up ahead of us, I think there’s a good chance they take Malik Monk.

      I’m a big Fox fan, but we’re going to have a choice between multiple good options even if he’s gone by our pick (barring some crazy winning streak these last 7 games). 3 or all 4 of Dennis Smith, Ntilikina, Tatum, and Isaac are likely to be there when we pick.

    24. Hubert

      The chances Fox fixes that broken jumper are pretty low. I know people like to find the outlier to compare him to, but the chances are that a guy shooting 25% from a college 3 point line on two attempts a game won’t be a viable NBA 3 point shooter.

      While it’s not encouraging, 69 attempts is hardly enough to draw serious conclusions from.

      And thank you, it was 25%, not 15% like I said earlier.

    25. Philmelo

      I guess it sort of converted me, at least to the point that the Triangle is not the main problem.

      Anyone who watches the Warriors can see that the Triangle isn’t the problem since they run a modified version of it all of the time.

    26. JK47

      The problem is that we have shitty players because the guy running the team sucks at evaluating talent.

    27. thenoblefacehumper

      The chances Fox fixes that broken jumper are pretty low. I know people like to find the outlier to compare him to, but the chances are that a guy shooting 25% from a college 3 point line on two attempts a game won’t be a viable NBA 3 point shooter.

      Otto Porter shot 22% as a freshman. Kawhi shot 20%. Lowry shot 22%. Brogdon shot 32%. Channing Frye didn’t take a single three. Neither did Anthony Tolliver. This list is pulling only from the top 20 3PT shooters in the NBA. If you dig just a little deeper there’s even more weird stuff, like CJ McCollum shooting 31% as a sophomore.

      3PT% as a freshman in college is simply not predictive whatsoever. The sample size is too small and players are focusing on other things. This is an area in which scouting is still very important (along with FT%). You can think whatever you want about Fox, but history says he’s hardly precluded from becoming a passable 3PT shooter.

    28. lavor postell

      I think Fultz and Jackson are likely the top 2 players on the Knicks board. Fultz is a big guard that can play both and off ball and profiles similarly from a size perspective, though a much better athlete, to D’Angelo Russell who they were high on as a prospect at the time of that draft. Jackson is very Pippen like in his skill set as a wing with the potential to go 2-4 defensively and has flashed superior ball handling and vision for his position.

      Ball is probably up there too just because of his size, but not sure he ticks all the boxes both of those 2 do for what Phil would likely want from a guard or wing.

    29. JK47

      Ball is probably up there too just because of his size, but not sure he ticks all the boxes both of those 2 do for what Phil would likely want from a guard or wing.

      He ticks the box of “being good at basketball” but I guess that’s not necessarily what Phil is looking for.

      #goink

    30. Philmelo

      And it was Kerr’s modified Triangle system that made the current Warriors offensive juggernaut as much as their talent made that system work. When they were a PG dominant offense under Jackson their offense was mediocre. Under Kerr’s offense Draymond Green went from a bench piece no one looked twice at to a HOF caliber player. He would still be languishing as a bench piece if it weren’t for Kerr.

    31. Philmelo

      69 attempts is hardly enough to conclude that a shot is broken.

      You’re also missing the subtext of the small sample size (69 attempts) in your analysis – he didn’t have the confidence to shoot more threes because he couldn’t make them. This is why his combination of poor shooting percentage and low attempts is problematic – he must be really bad to not take more, especially with all the open 3 point opportunities I’ve seen him have.

    32. JK47

      Under Kerr’s offense Draymond Green went from a bench piece no one looked twice at to a HOF caliber player. He would still be languishing as a bench piece if it weren’t for Kerr.

      This is not really true. Green broke out as a player at the end of the 2013-2014 season. I remember this clearly because Golden State fans at the time knew they had a superstar on their hands from his playoff performance that year against the Clippers when Jackson was still coach. The Warriors lost in the first round that year to the Clippers in seven games but Draymond almost carried them to a series win. He was clearly an emerging player at the time.

    33. thenoblefacehumper

      You’re also missing the subtext of the small sample size (69 attempts) in your analysis – he didn’t have the confidence to shoot more threes because he couldn’t make them. This is why his combination of poor shooting percentage and low attempts is problematic – he must be really bad to not take more, especially with all the open 3 point opportunities I’ve seen him have.

      Every player I just listed actually took fewer attempts as NCAA freshmen except Kawhi, who took 9 more. Again, think what you will about Fox but the data says he can become a fine shooter.

    34. Philmelo

      Otto Porter shot 22% as a freshman. Kawhi shot 20%. Lowry shot 22%. Brogdon shot 32%. Channing Frye didn’t take a single three. Neither did Anthony Tolliver. This list is pulling only from the top 20 3PT shooters in the NBA. If you dig just a little deeper there’s even more weird stuff, like CJ McCollum shooting 31% as a sophomore.

      I could spend the time showing you how most if not all of these guys shot a higher percentage of 3s at a higher rate than Fox, but I will let you look it up because it takes too much time the other way.

    35. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      In Clyde’s prime the league average TS% was .511. This season it’s .552. Clyde was a very efficient scorer for his day. De’Aaron essentially has to become a good 3 point shooter if he wants to be Clyde 2.0.

      True, forgot the massive TS% difference between that era and now. Isn’t it amazing how much better the NBA got?

      Ball is probably up there too just because of his size, but not sure he ticks all the boxes both of those 2 do for what Phil would likely want from a guard or wing.

      I think Ball is someone Phil is really interested in because he’s a big, low usage PG who is an excellent passer and doesn’t rely on dominating the ball through penetration to score, preferring to take shots from the perimeter. That seems like a pretty triangle-friendly point guard.

      I think Fox is pretty much a lock at 5 unless Philly is picking. It seems like Tatum is solidly considered the #4 pick as far as I can tell, though that of course can change.

    36. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @31

      It was Curry and Dray taking a MASSIVE leap that catapulted Golden State to greatness. The modified triangle works nicely for them because they have a lot of good cutters and plus passers at most positions but they could just run one screen pick and rolls every game, chuck up shots and still win 60. It ain’t the system, it’s the players. Unless it’s D’Antoni or Thibs.

    37. thenoblefacehumper

      I could spend the time showing you how most if not all of these guys shot a higher percentage of 3s at a higher rate than Fox, but I will let you look it up because it takes too much time the other way.

      As I just said, all of them except Kawhi took fewer attempts. Kawhi took 9 more, so you have that going for you, which is nice. You probably should’ve googled this one before you fired it off.

    38. Philmelo

      Every player I just listed actually took fewer attempts as NCAA freshmen

      This is the special caveat you are quickly brushing over. If you’re going to get finicky about sample sizes show me the list of guys who were 1 and done, came to the NBA and became bonified 3 point shooters shooting as low a percentage on as low a usage rate as Fox did.

    39. lavor postell

      I think Ball is someone Phil is really interested in because he’s a big, low usage PG who is an excellent passer and doesn’t rely on dominating the ball through penetration to score, preferring to take shots from the perimeter. That seems like a pretty triangle-friendly point guard.

      Ball is good at shooting 3’s and passing. He’s not very good at defense to the point that he was hid throughout the year on the opposition’s worst perimeter player. He also hasn’t shown much ability to create shots within the arc and doesn’t finish at the rim through contact. Those seem like things Phil would weigh heavily.

      He’s a hell of a talent, but I don’t think he’s the “prototype” guard Phil probably jerks off too. Fultz does and Jackson does for the type of wing he’s tried to find with previous long shot picks like Thanasis and Cleanthony with a much more well rounded skillset.

    40. Philmelo

      There’s a lot 20/20 hindsight with Draymond Green. In that series against the Clippers he was used as a traditional big man. I am talking about the Draymond Green who became the primary halfcourt ball handler of the Warriors offense we know about. The guy who leads his team in assists. His quantum leap as an offensive player was tied to the fact that he initiates the Warriors offense out of the post just as Curry’s leap was tied to the fact that he was freed off the ball to come off any combination of screens, curls, etc. to shoot the ball.

    41. thenoblefacehumper

      This is the special caveat you are quickly brushing over. If you’re going to get finicky about sample sizes show me the list of guys who were 1 and done, came to the NBA and became bonified 3 point shooters shooting as low a percentage on as low a usage rate as Fox did.

      …but Fox was a freshman. 3PT% is probably the single most common thing college players improve on as they get older. What does being one-and-done have to do with anything? Are you implying that Fox would have a better chance at being a good NBA 3PT shooter if he stayed in college?

    42. Nick C.

      In Clyde’s prime the league average TS% was .511. This season it’s .552. Clyde was a very efficient scorer for his day. De’Aaron essentially has to become a good 3 point shooter if he wants to be Clyde 2.0.

      True, forgot the massive TS% difference between that era and now. Isn’t it amazing how much better the NBA got?

      You don’t think the lack of a three point shot (as in it did not exist) was a significant drag on TS%?

    43. Philmelo

      Though, I will admit, that Mark Jackson probably would have started Draymond Green if he stayed as Warriors head coach in 2014.

    44. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      You don’t think the lack of a three point shot (as in it did not exist) was a significant drag on TS%?

      I think it did, of course, but just from eye test it seems like players back then were simply much worse at shooting in general.

    45. Philmelo

      Are you implying that Fox would have a better chance at being a good NBA 3PT shooter if he stayed in college?

      Yes, I do, based on the prospect of incrementalism. Expecting a player to remake their shot and consistently execute an NBA distance 3 when when they don’t even have the repetitions to master a college distance 3 is a problem. Fox is not an example of a player with solid shot consistency from 3 who is shooting a low percentage in a small sample. His shot has mechanical flaws, and because of it he’s struggled to drain shots 15 ft and out. The days of nonshooters like Rajon Rondo being able to thrive at the position have come and gone. Of the point guards who have started at least 15 games in the league this season, there are only 12 who shoot less than 33 percent from 3. Its really really big risk.

    46. Philmelo

      The thing that scares me about Fox is that his 3-point percentage in his freshman season at Kentucky would be the worst mark any current starting NBA point guard right now had in college. That means lower than Rose, Wall, Rondo. Even if he fixed it that will take around 4 years of development based on what we’ve seen with dudes like Wall and Lowry.

    47. wetbandit

      So this seems like the largest/closest MVP race I can recall. Westbrook and Harden are gunning for it, with Kawhi and Durant making strong cases too. Funny, recent recipients Curry and LeBron seem to be slacking a bit in preparation for the trilogy.

    48. thenoblefacehumper

      Since whoever we draft will hopefully be here for a while I kind of hope it isn’t Josh Jackson. The details of his particular set of “character issues” are pretty bad. I know people can change, and we’ll never know exactly what happened, but just what’s known makes it difficult to root for him. I think he’s close enough talent wise to Fox/Isaac/Smith that it’s perfectly sensible to take any one of them over him.

    49. DRed

      You don’t think the lack of a three point shot (as in it did not exist) was a significant drag on TS%?

      what I’m saying is that for his era, Clyde was an efficient scorer. If Fox puts up a 550ish TS in the NBA, he won’t be. Assuming the rest of his game is good, that’s a fine player, and I’d be happy with that, but it’s not Clyde Frazier good.

    50. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Fox’s shot isn’t mechanically broken it’s actually quite good form-wise

    51. Hugo Busto

      what was PhilMelo’s old account here? terrible poster

      the triangle has nothing to do with the Warriors success

    52. ClashFan

      @54
      I think he threatened a female basketball player and vandalized her car? Minor damage. Kansas may have swept it under the rug…

      @55
      Ras1980, I think. I still think the “triangle” is meaningless to argue over. Whatever the system, the team needs better plays who fit well together. I wish Phil really had changed the “culture” he like he originally claimed, but that has not happened. Exhibit One: Derrick Rose.

    53. Hugo Busto

      FWIW, Ron Adams deserves a ton of credit for the Warriors success. He was the defensive guru for the Celtics and Steve Kerr recognized it and was his top priority of getting him on staff. Made the Warriors defense elite

    54. 2FOR18

      Screw character. Bernard, Reggie Jackson, Jordan, and LT were SOBs. Melo is by all accounts a nice dude and great family man.

      The supporting cast and coach can be your character guys, but your alpha dog has to play with furious anger and a high sports IQ.

    55. 2FOR18

      I think some of you are going prematurely gaga over Josh Jackson. He’s very athletic and I’d draft him after all of the top pgs and Isaac are gone, but not where the knicks are likely to pick.

      Fultz, Ball, Fox, Smith, Frank and Isaac, all have to go before the Jackson, Tatum and Bridges trio

    56. MSA

      Screw character. Bernard, Reggie Jackson, Jordan, and LT were SOBs. Melo is by all accounts a nice dude and great family man.

      +1

      Also Kobe Bryant, Shaq, Kevin Garnett, Mason and the whole Detroit Pistons team.

      We need good players that work hard. As long as they are not commiting any felonies I couldn’t care less about character.

    57. KBrazilian

      @44

      Though, I will admit, that Mark Jackson probably would have started Draymond Green if he stayed as Warriors head coach in 2014.

      I don’t know if you can state that… Actually, Green only started the 2014-2015 season as a stater because of a David Lee injury. During the preseason, Lee was killing it in the practices (as the starter and the second All-Star of the team), while Draymond was “trying too much” in showing his skills to the new coaching staff. He was trying to make fancy passes and all the stuff, but that was frequently leading to turnovers. Kerr said he was trying to be “Draymond James”, and said that he should be himself, instead. Then Lee got hurt and the rest is history: Kerr inserted Green in the starting line-up and that gave the Warriors a new defensive and playmanking dimension. When Lee healed, the Warriors were already the best team in the league, thanks to Curry’s explosion and Green’s and Thompson’s leaps.

    58. Z-man

      I think it did, of course, but just from eye test it seems like players back then were simply much worse at shooting in general.

      Wow. How do you even respond to this?

    59. Z-man

      Is anyone really seriously comparing Fox to a top-50 all-time player?

      Fox is more likely the second coming of Rory Sparrow.

    60. Philmelo

      the triangle has nothing to do with the Warriors success

      Nothing to do with the Warriors success? You make a hyperbolic, absolute statement like this without any sort of qualifications or explication of your view and I am the horrible poster? Right. I’d argue against your post but you don’t even present enough of a premise to argue against. I don’t know whether to disprove the premise that the Triangle isn’t part of the Warriors success or that its implementation hasn’t made the Warriors a historic offense. Either way, both points would be wrong.

    61. Z-man

      The closest thing imo to Clyde since Clyde was Brandon Roy, but only on O. Shooting 50+% in the 2-pt era was a big deal, especially for a guard.

    62. Hugo Busto

      Nothing to do with the Warriors success? You make a hyperbolic, absolute statement like this without any sort of qualifications or explication of your view and I am the horrible poster? Right. I’d argue against your post but you don’t even present enough of a premise to argue against. I don’t know whether to disprove the premise that the Triangle isn’t part of the Warriors success or that its implementation hasn’t made the Warriors a historic offense. Either way, both points would be wrong.

      Yes that is what I said.

      Wow big deal they use some “triangle concepts”. Guess what? they also use a bunch of Spurs sets and even before that some old Dantoni concepts. Quick ball screens, pace, handoffs, etc. etc.
      then you add in Ron Adams to the staff for defense. and voila!

      and at the end of the day its also magnified because they went from Marc Jackson’s busted ass ISO offense that wasn’t maximizing his rosters talent or potential at all.

      but yea lets keep talking about this triangle

    63. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Wow. How do you even respond to this?

      It was more that I was just too lazy to look up the stats, but, as an example: The Memphis Grizzlies this year have a league worst 2 point % at .477. If they played in 1969-70, they’d be 4th in the league. The top 2 pt fg% in 1969-70 was the Bucks at .488, which would be tied with this year’s Suns for the 25th best two point field goal percentage. The top team in the league this year in 2 pt % is GSW at .556.

      So yeah, people weren’t nearly as good at shooting as they are now. The Fox comparison to Clyde was talking about his *ceiling* as a player and how his playstyle looks, not that he is in fact that 2nd coming of Clyde or anything. To prognosticate that would be ridiculous.

    64. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      It’s all about standard deviation. Unfortunately, no one wants to talk about that because it’s borrrrrrrrrrrring.

      I have a buddy who is very good with data visualization. Does anyone know where to get easy-to-manipulate season data?

    65. heavencent35

      Whats with ricky Rubio? He is posting great numbers lately and has been a stud in my fantasy team. The funny thing is it don’t translate to NBA wins. Will he be actually a fitnpg for us? The way he is playing the wolves might ask for more. Also a player having a great year before going to the Knicks is always a red mark for us

    66. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Andrew Wiggins has a below-average TS% with high usage. Considering that he does nothing else well, he is a bad player.

      WS48 .065 (meh)
      BPM -2.7 (haha)
      VORP -0.5 (yup)
      WP48 -0.019 (of course)

      Dunn, LaVine, Bjelica, and Rush have been pretty bad, too. Rubio and Towns have been carrying the team. The Wolves would be as bad as the Nyets if not for them.

    67. Hugo Busto

      its not out of the realm of possibilities to imagine Wiggins leading the Wolves on some playoff runs in a few years. Remember he just turned 22 last month. Furthermore, I would actually argue against Rubio. Seriously, Wiggins doesn’t get enough credit for putting up 23 PPG and ~league average TS% at 21/22 while surrounded by 2 bigs/non-shooting 1s. Their starters spacing is terrible.

      Wiggins has the athleticism to be a elite defender and I think another offseason under THIBS could really help him. Right now he’s inconsistent with positioning, awareness and technique. Teachable things. He had to play under Sam Mitchell and Flip Saunders, not the best coaches.

      and i know i know, this board is in love with Rubio right now but he is highly flawed

    68. Brian Cronin

      I mainly think of two things regarding Wiggins…

      1. He’s young enough to still improve dramatically (but he’s running out of time on the likelihood of that happening)
      and
      2. He would be a better player had he not been given the keys to the offense as a rookie.

      For right now, he’s just not that good at anything in particular, not even defense, which he clearly has the skills to be good at.

    69. Philmelo

      Wow big deal they use some “triangle concepts”. Guess what? they also use a bunch of Spurs sets and even before that some old Dantoni concepts. Quick ball screens, pace, handoffs, etc. etc.

      I know you read this brushing through an article so I am going to educate youu because no one in their right mind would say that the Warriors are as influenced by D’Antoni concepts after arguing the Triangle has nothing to do with their offensive success.

      The Warriors halfcourt is mainly run out of triangle sets, even the Spurs motion offense which you mention is based off of triangle spacing concepts. Phil basically called out the Spurs motion offense as specifically deriving their spacing concepts from the Triangle.

      Jackson: Popovich made significant growth 10 years ago or so after David Robinson left. It had been pretty stilted. You know, two big guys. A lot of stuff he does represents the triangle offense. They flow into it a different way. Strong-side triangle. Pinch-post action. Some of it may have come about because we were going at each other all the time in the playoffs and he had to defend against it.

      So, yeah, the Warriors run a modified Triangle. If you want to actually learn something about how what they run compares to what Mark Jackson practiced you can learn about it here in this video breakdown from a former disciple of Tex Winter. If you want to learn how it compares to what we run, read this article which talks about how they are a modified Triangle offense.

    70. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      its not out of the realm of possibilities to imagine Wiggins leading the Wolves on some playoff runs in a few years.

      I get it: because he dunks high on the dunk board. Highlights! But over the course of a season, he’s a bad scorer. Thanks for your eyetest.

      Remember he just turned 22 last month.

      He’s played 3 below-average seasons in the NBA. Yay for potential, though!

      Furthermore, I would actually argue against Rubio.

      Excellent analysis here, but you’ve said literally nothing. Why? Because he routinely leads the league in steal percentage? Because he’s consistently among the league leaders in assists? Because he’s elite at drawing shooting foul contact (albeit in lower usage)?

      Seriously, Wiggins doesn’t get enough credit for putting up 23 PPG and ~league average TS% at 21/22 while surrounded by 2 bigs/non-shooting 1s. Their starters spacing is terrible.

      If that’s the case, how the fuck does Rubio have a career best in TS% this year?

      Wiggins has the athleticism to be a elite defender and I think another offseason under THIBS could really help him. Right now he’s inconsistent with positioning, awareness and technique.

      There are incredible athletes on every team in the league. Zach LaVine and Aaron Gordon are total freaks of nature, yet neither one is good at basketball. Nate Robinson is one of the most athletic people to ever play in the NBA, yet he was never better than a bench player, either. Steph Curry can’t dunk the basketball, but is one of the best steal artists in the league and had the single greatest offensive season of the modern era. JaVale McGee could probably dunk on an 11′ rim and he commits mistake all over the court. Athleticism is not the determinant of defensive potential. It’s much more than that.

    71. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      By the way, league average eFG% is .512 and Wiggins’ eFG% is .482. That is well below-average. That means that his average shooting night puts his team at a disadvantage, whether you believe it or not.

    72. Z-man

      Silecto, the game was played totally differently back then. The lack 3-pt shot (stretches the D), dunking and hand-checking were detrimental to shooting at a higher percentage.

      But even if I went along with your premise, I would argue that the top players then were simply great players and great shooters in their day, and if raised with today’s many advantages (e.g. year-around training and nutrition, skill-specific coaching, etc.) that they would be great shooters in today’s era. Clyde, Jerry West, Oscar, Earl, etc. were immortal offensive guards in their era and would have been today.

    73. Brian Cronin

      Lance returning to Indiana on a three-year deal at the end of March is one of the odder signings I’ve seen in recent memory.

    74. geehee

      I think I have a man-crush on Josh Jackson. His passing is incredible. One mock draft has him falling to us, which I have my doubts on.

    75. Brian Cronin

      You should doubt it. No way he drops past #3. The right team might even take him #2. But hey, the Knicks could move up to #3!

    76. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      @77

      I have no doubt that players like Jerry West would be great players in the contemporary environment. Maybe I was stating things improperly but I think it is the case that the NBA as a whole has gotten better at shooting. That’s partially due to stylistic differences with the lack of hand checking and a three point shot, but I also think it just has to do with more training.

      I was flippant when I was saying how amazing it was that the NBA got better. A more responsible way of saying what I meant to say would be: the difference between the average nba players 2ptfg% today and the average player back then is really stark.

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