ESPN Sources: Jackson and Knicks to Part Ways

According to ESPN:

The New York Knicks and team president Phil Jackson will announce that they’re parting ways early Wednesday morning, sources told ESPN.

Conversations about what was best for the team’s future between Jackson and Knicks owner James Dolan accelerated this week when the franchise decided it would not buy out embattled forward Carmelo Anthony, sources said.

Jackson, 71, had made it well known that he felt it was best for Anthony and the organization to part ways, both publicly and privately, but Anthony refused to waive his no-trade clause, and the Knicks were determined not to accommodate any request for a buyout. Anthony has two years worth more than $54 million remaining on his deal.

With no end to the stalemate in sight, and free agency beginning on Saturday, Jackson’s discussions with Dolan accelerated late Tuesday night and the decision was made to part ways.

I’m shocked at this move, because it’s pretty logical. Jackson managed to get under the skin of the Knicks two best players, so it was clear that given his tenure of under-performance (80-166, 32.5%) Phil would lose the battle if push came to shove. Yet Dolan usually doesn’t make the logical move, especially when it comes to GMs. He stuck with the spontaneous Isiah for too long, and then overruled and eventually forced out the sensible and pragmatic Donnie Walsh.

It’s ironic that Jackson’s last straw was apparently the “No Trade Clause” he gave to Carmelo Anthony in the first place. Phil could have been fired for a number of other sins: Noah’s contract, failing to get proper return on trades, forcing the triangle on the team, etc. And while one could argue that the Knicks were pretty barren at Jackson’s start, especially with regards to draft picks, Phil didn’t seem to have a a good comprehension of his roster by over-predicting their potential before each season.

On the other hand, it’s hard to argue that Jackson has left the team in a worse state than he inherited. The Knicks have a few prospects (Porzingis, Ntikilina, Hernandez) and some trade bait (O’Quinn, Lee) so a good GM could make a go of it in short time. The hard part will be dealing with Carmelo Anthony and Joakim Noah, both whose contracts and talents don’t fit a young rebuilding franchise. Now it’s just up to Dolan to find the right GM.

Oh god.


Edit 9:28am

And it’s official.

Phil Jackson, New York Knicks Agree to Part Company

NEW YORK, June 28, 2017 – MSG Executive Chairman Jim Dolan and Phil Jackson announced today that, after discussing the future of the New York Knicks, they have mutually agreed to part company. Mr. Jackson is leaving his post as President of Basketball Operations, effective immediately.

“After careful thought and consideration, we mutually agreed that the Knicks will be going in a different direction,” said Mr. Dolan. “Phil Jackson is one of the most celebrated and successful individuals in the history of the NBA. His legacy in the game of basketball is unmatched. We wish him the best and thank him for his service to the Knicks as both a player and an executive.

“While we are currently evaluating how best to move forward regarding the leadership of the organization, I will not be involved in the operation of the team,” continued Mr. Dolan. “Steve Mills, the team’s general manager, will run the day-to-day business of the organization over the short term. Tim Leiweke, who brings tremendous expertise and experience in sports franchise management from both Toronto and Los Angeles and is our partner in the Oak View Group, will advise and work with Steve on an interim basis to help develop a go-forward plan.”

“The New York Knicks will always hold a special place in my heart,” Mr. Jackson said. “This team and this town launched my NBA career. I will forever be indebted to them. I am grateful to Mr. Dolan for giving me the opportunity to return here.

“I had hoped, of course, to bring another NBA championship to the Garden. As someone who treasures winning, I am deeply disappointed that we weren’t able to do that. New York fans deserve nothing less. I wish them and the Knicks organization all the best – today and always.”

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Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

310 thoughts to “ESPN Sources: Jackson and Knicks to Part Ways”

  1. Adrian Wojnarowski?
    Verified account @WojVerticalNBA 1h 1 hour ago

    Knicks owner James Dolan is targeting Toronto’s Masai Ujiri to replace Phil Jackson as N.Y.’s President, league sources tell @TheVertical.

    Just WOW.

  2. Ding dong the witch is dead!

    No more conjoined triangles of success…

    Maybe we will get pabs as an AC after all.

  3. well shit, if we get Masai Ujiri I will forgive Dolan for all past sins (except being a dick to Oakley)

  4. I hope this means “bye-bye Rose” and “bye-bye triangle”, above all.

    Well, it’s very knicksy (it sucks) that Frank Ntilikina was suposedly drafted ahead of DSJ because he fits better the triangle, but just one week later the Knicks decide they’re not running it anymore. Come on :(

    Don’t know if it was mentioned in some thread, but what you guys think about David Griffin? He drafted Anthony Bennett, but he also put a competent roster around LeBron (with kinda limited money) and helped to got Cleveland a title.

  5. Now the players have no excuses for the system. That goes for you too me7o.

    Kp and melo need to play the 4 and 5 and Willy as the 6th man

  6. I have not posted in a long time. I had to come back to say:

    I WAS WRONG! I WAS AS WRONG AS WRONG COULD BE.

    I am curious now to see what a PnR offense with a competent PG, Carmelo/Porzingis as the Diveman, and the other of Carmelo/Porzingis set for the corner 3 can do. I think that is the beginning of a competent offense.

    Dolan cost himself $24 million by not doing this six weeks ago.

  7. There is absolutely no point in trying to accomplish anything with Carmelo Anthony on the roster. He’s not good anymore and will only get worse. Even if he has some kind of renaissance (unlikely) we are so far away from competitiveness that the only effect it’ll have is to mess up our draft pick.

    That doesn’t mean there’s no scenario in which we keep him that I’d be okay with. If the next regime phases him out as a sixth man or whatever, that’s fine. But re-committing to the idea of being competitive with Melo would be a disaster.

  8. Glad to see Phil (and the triangle) go. I’m guessing he demanded that the Knicks buy out Melo, but Dolan was having none of that. That said, wasn’t part of the rationale for selecting Frank at 8 was that he was a better fit for the triangle? Had the Knicks fired Phil 2 weeks ago, would they have drafted someone else instead?

  9. If the next regime phases him out as a sixth man or whatever, that’s fine. But re-committing to the idea of being competitive with Melo would be a disaster.

    Yeah I think melo is a fine role player. If Frank Willy and KP progress nicely and there are good free agent pickups I think it could be ok. I think today solidified that melo will retire a knick. So going forward I think the gm will have a tough job but not impossible

  10. I feel like, applying Dolan’s razor, Isaiah will soon be GM again. That’s the most logical thing that could happen.

    All kidding aside, this could be great. A great front office and some luck are important pieces of the championship puzzle. I think Masai could be the guy to lead us to the promised land. Although if Melo hangs around it will be more difficult.

    And you have to give Dolan a little credit for not letting 24 million stand in the way of the right decision.

  11. Silver lining- we will probably see a re-invigorated Melo this season with out Phil’s shadow looming large. How good he’ll be at this stage after knee surgery is unknown, but the change in direction should be a good thing- provided we can ink a PG who isn’t high usage like Rose.

  12. Did we extend Melo and give him a 5 year max yet?

    Do we still have the 2018, 2020, and 2022 1st round picks or did we trade them for Deron Williams?

    Seriously, if we extend Melo after this contract I will make it my life’s purpose to ensure that no poor young child will ever be a Knicks fan again and have to suffer like this.

  13. I think this significantly increases the chances of re-signing Rose and doing some other win now moves because that’s what Melo will want. Although at a high level I am in agreement with this move I think it will hurt the tank/rebuild.

  14. Well if we resign Rose we’re certainly not winning more than 30 games this year unless Willy or KP make the leap lol

  15. Seriously, if we extend Melo after this contract I will make it my life’s purpose to ensure that no poor young child will ever be a Knicks fan again and have to suffer like this.

    You can start now.

  16. I think this significantly increases the chances of re-signing Rose

    I don’t think so. We also don’t know what the others thought about the whole awol situation

  17. I guess this both increases the likelihood of us doing really stupid shit and increases the likelihood of us doing something good, but probably the chance of the later is higher. With Melo & Noah this team is seriously hamstrung for the next year or two, so it’s very important whoever we bring in understands that we are not trying to win a lot in the short term. History suggests Dolan has no idea and will fuck this up badly, but hey, there’s a chance!

  18. We’ve seen over the years that Dolan always sides with Carmelo, so this isn’t shocking news. That buyout talk was insane. The entire MMM saga has been a fireable blight for Jackson since day 1, and it’s gotten worse and worse each year.

    But, ultimately, Dolan is firing Phil Jackson for the wrong reasons (in true Dolan fashion). He’s firing Phil because Phil doesn’t want Anthony on the Knicks anymore, and that is his hubris.

    Like he was with Isiah, Dolan is dilussionally loyal to Anthony. The Anthony era will never end.

    So instead of limiting his role, or building up his value for a February trade, the next GM will have his hands tied with regard to “fixing the Knicks”. Dolan will say he’s hands-off, but the new GM will know the truth.

  19. The 2017-2018 season was shaping up to be a clusterfuck of unimaginable proportions with Phil still running the show and his little toady Rambis still on the sidelines screaming and yelling at everybody. Phil’s attempt to fix this involved shopping Porzingis around and floating out a plan to buy out Melo, which would have resulted in Dolan paying $55M so Melo could play for the Cavs. Dolan did the simple calculation that it was better to pay Jax $24M to not be the GM than it was to pay Melo $55M to not be the small forward.

    For once it’s kind of nice to see an incompetent blowhard who is really full of himself get his comeuppance.

  20. Buying out Carmelo is less insane than keeping him on the roster for two more years and playing him in basketball games. I guess the key is figuring out how likely it is that he will opt out after this season, and I really have no idea.

  21. (Ported over from the last thread.)

    Phil firing, pro/con:

    PRO
    1. No more obsessing over an antiquated offensive system that the players hated, and that the team was destined to abandon in two years had Phil’s contract just run out.
    2. The constant fear of Kristaps being traded because Phil’s ego was bruised over the exit interview thing is now gone. It’s hard to imagine any replacement being dumb enough to try to get rid of KP.
    3. Related: His replacement will almost certainly be able to multi-task in a way Phil never could. We wasted all that time at the draft deadline haggling over the Rubio/Rose trade (a deal we should’ve made, but whatever) and thus missed chances to flip Lee or KOQ or Kuz for anything, and we apparently did the same on draft day with making calls about KP.
    4. While the odds of a Melo trade are still tiny (due to the NTC that Phil stupidly gave him), we can at least remove “staying just to spite Phil” as one of Melo’s motivators.
    5. While team is surely still not a FA destination, given all the other problems, we at least no longer have to worry about players saying they don’t want to come here to play for the stubborn old man who won’t stop insulting people.
    6. Rambis almost certainly goes immediately, and if he doesn’t, he’s also not protected by anybody. And we get to see if Hornacek is actually the coach of the future now that he’s not being forced to run a system he never played in or coached before.

    CON

    1. Gaines might leave with Phil, and his draft picks were one of the few positives of the Phil era.
    2. Dolan could always hire someone worse (i.e., Zeke).

    I’m pro all the way, even if the timing this close to start of FA stinks.

  22. I mean Phil was not a good executive, so I guess this is good, but with the Knicks there’s always good reason to take the devil you know. The Masai rumors are nice, but it’s not clear to me how we’d get him (we’d have to give up an asset I assume) or why he’d want to come here ($$$ excluded – maybe I answered my own question).

    Not sure really enough is being made of how incredibly dumb it was to let a GM make an important draft pick based seemingly in part on the anachronistic system which is his, and only his, personal obsession only to turn around and fire the guy a week later. If DSJ is a superstar and Nkitlina isn’t, Knickerblogger will be having heated discussions about where that ranks among our dumbest moves until about 2050.

    Will be interesting in the coming days/months/years to discuss where Phil’s tenure ranks among recent Knicks GMs. He doesn’t have many positive accomplishments on his resume, but he leaves the team in a reasonable position. The only really black mark that lingers after his tenure is the Noah deal, but otherwise he at least has left a relatively full cupboard for whoever follows him. If Porzingis-WHG-Nkitlina ends up being the core of the next good Knicks team Phil will come out of this smelling relatively rosy.

  23. If the next regime phases him out as a sixth man or whatever, that’s fine. But re-committing to the idea of being competitive with Melo would be a disaster.

    I’ve been saying this for years. Melo will retire as Knick with a HUGE contract the same way Kobe did and have his number retired after that regardless of the results.

    Masai is a smart guy. If he’s the chosen one, I doubt that he would commit to 40yo Melo. He will try to fool some dumb F.O. the same way he did with Bargnani and Rudy Gay. And will do it with some class, not with the cryptic press conferences BS. It’s our only hope.

  24. There were reasons to take Frank over Smith or Monk beyond his Triangle fit, starting with the fact that he plays defense and the other two do not, and how much of a problem our PG defense has been since… Charlie Ward left?

    Yeah, if either of those guys is a star and Frank is a role player, that would stink. But I don’t know that Phil would be the only executive who would’ve taken him over those two in that spot.

  25. With Melo & Noah this team is seriously hamstrung for the next year or two, so it’s very important whoever we bring in understands that we are not trying to win a lot in the short term. History suggests Dolan has no idea and will fuck this up badly, but hey, there’s a chance!

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out because absolutely any real candidate for the job (meaning a smart, qualified person with basketball management experience) would see that clearly. The obvious path forward is to be terrible this year, add another high lottery pick, hope Melo is sick of this shit and heads elsewhere. At that point 12 months from now you’ve got a reasonable young nucleus, a fairly clear cap (still have the Noah problem but you’re still a couple years away from competing anyway) and things are looking pretty rosy.

    The big question is: does Dolan want to hear that in an interview? If Dolan’s first question to any candidate is “What would you do to get us back in the playoffs next year?” and still thinks competing with Melo is realistic there’s a serious chance this gets worse, not better.

  26. I still think Melo gets moved. A resonable GM/person will simply start a dialogue with Carmelo and honestly talk about what’s best for him and the franchise. Carmelo being a seemingly resonable person as well will then work with the Knicks to find a location that is mutually beneficial. I don’t think he wants to stay I just think the whole thing was a bitter spiteful mess that is now over.

  27. Phil was here for 2 reasons:
    1) Use his credibility to recruit
    2) Be Dolan’s shield
    I genuinely believe that’s what the job entailed. Somewhere along the line, Phil had a senior moment and saw nothing but Triangles…
    Well, here’s to Square 1.

  28. There were reasons to take Frank over Smith or Monk beyond his Triangle fit, starting with the fact that he plays defense and the other two do not, and how much of a problem our PG defense has been since… Charlie Ward left?

    Yeah, if either of those guys is a star and Frank is a role player, that would stink. But I don’t know that Phil would be the only executive who would’ve taken him over those two in that spot.

    I don’t disagree with you. I just don’t think we’ll remember it that way 5 years from now if DSJ is tearing up the league and Nkitlina is a role player. Know what I mean?

  29. Yeah I don’t think Frank being picked over DSJ or Monk is that big of a deal. Every mock had those 3 around the same place and if DSJ becomes a star (or Monk) then isn’t it also on the 7 teams that picked before us for not picking them? I would say most people think that Frank has all around tools and skills that those two lack…ie, smart player, good defense, ridiculous wingspan, and great defense. Its not like Phil picked some guy who was mocked way lower than those 2 because he fit the triangle.

  30. Ntilikina over Dennis Smith was a reasonable choice, regardless of system. They were comparable prospects. Smith might turn out to be the better player, but Ntilikina was not an indefensible pick.

  31. the one thing that makes me hopeful is that Dolan is very self-centered and vain, and all the reports were that he felt Ujiri out negotiated the Knicks heavily… so he might want to bring him to run the show.

    I can’t trust Dolan but who knows, his complete ineptitude might be a plus here.

  32. All of the high upside DSJ comps were like Starbury and Steve Franchise. He may be an all-star some day but even that doesnt mean he’ll be a key piece on a good team, or somebody most on this site would want. We need to minimize the number of headcases and Frank looks like he could be a hell of a teammate that works his butt off.

    KP led the league in contested shots at the rim. That definitely took something out of him on the offensive end and maybe contributed to his sophomore slump. Knicks NEED perimeter D, so I’m happy with Frank. The pick could come back to bite us but I’m not losing sleep over it.

  33. A resonable GM/person will simply start a dialogue with Carmelo and honestly talk about what’s best for him and the franchise.

    Believe it or not, this is how Phil Jackson started his job in New York.

    He took Carmelo out to a steak dinner and asked him to take a pay-cut in order for the team to have the salary flexibility to put a winning team around him.

    The problem Phil faces was when Anthony refused, he didn’t engage in S&T talks. He just dumped the money, and the NTC in his lap, despite his better judgement. Was this mandated by Dolan? Maybe not explicitly, but it does seem strange that Phil would cater to Anthony after stating all the reasons why he shouldn’t.

    That was the defining decision of the Phil Jackson era: not drafting KP, or trading Chandler, or buying the Willy pick. The wheels were going to come off from the second Carmelo Anthony’s ink was on that contract.

  34. It’s almost like if you give a player a max contract with a no-trade clause, he has an incredible amount of leverage! Who could have ever guessed such a thing?

  35. The problem Phil faces was when Anthony refused, he didn’t engage in S&T talks. He just dumped the money, and the NTC in his lap, despite his better judgement. Was this mandated by Dolan? Maybe not explicitly, but it does seem strange that Phil would cater to Anthony after stating all the reasons why he shouldn’t.

    That was the defining decision of the Phil Jackson era: not drafting KP, or trading Chandler, or buying the Willy pick. The wheels were going to come off from the second Carmelo Anthony’s ink was on that contract.

    CORRECT. I will never understand Phil doing this. I will look forward to reading Phil’s next book, “Carmelonoma: Affliction to the Soul of Success” explaining how all this came down.

  36. Phil had undoubtedly been exploring the trade market for Melo since last year’s trade deadline. The fact that a buyout was being discussed with Melo’s camp suggests that Phil never found an acceptable trade partner, and had moved to Plan B. Our new GM will probably find the same thing.

    That means we’re stuck with Me7o for at least 1 year and probably 2. I hope I’m wrong.

  37. Let’s hire Hinkie

    HA! We would go from “you can’t rebuild in New York” to “you can’t do anything other than rebuild in New York.”

  38. Masai just signed an extension with the Raptors in 2016.

    Then again, Phil just signed an extension with the Knicks in April.

  39. Great move Dolan. You pick up Phil’s contract for another two years and then fire him 5 months afterwards. If I were a cynical man I’d say you were played like a sucker by yet another conman after Melo has played you.

  40. The natural order of things here in Los Angeles was backwards for a while as the Lakers were irrelevant and the Clippers were decent. That period is now over.

  41. Woj:

    Sources: After Paul informed Clippers he’d sign w/ HOU in FA, teams agreed to deal sending Beverley, Decker, Williams and 2018 FRP for Paul.

  42. This seems like a good time to remember that Carmelo Anthony never committed to signing with the Knicks prior to being traded, thus allowing Denver to get every single valuable asset the Knicks had at that time.

    The anti-Chris Paul trade.

  43. Kinda doubt Doc Rivers is interested in rebuilding with the Clips. Seems like a very Dolan-ish hire. Just saying…

  44. This seems like a good time to remember that Carmelo Anthony never committed to signing with the Knicks prior to being traded, thus allowing Denver to get every single valuable asset the Knicks had at that time.

    And then on the back end, Melo gets veto power over any possible trade, assuring that the Knicks have no leverage and will get jack shit in return. What a glorious decade we have wasted.

  45. This means the Banana boat team is happening. CP3 opt in to his final year. Next year is the year of the Banana.

  46. Whoa– I was just telling my son about Free Agency and who was likely to move. He’s a Clippers fan (what?!), and asked if Paul was going to leave. I said probably not. He said “what about to go to Houston?”

    I have no idea where he was getting that from. He’s 15 but doesn’t read anything, let alone rumor mills.

    I told him Houston wouldn’t be a logical destination, even if he left, because they already have a ball-dominant guard and his value would be diminished.

    Turns out I can be wrong. Who knew?

  47. I just realized that Phil has made more than Steph Curry in NBA contract money the last 3 years.
    Wow.

    And wow to CP3 to the Rockets. Clips made out pretty damn good in that trade. Rockets are gonna need depth really bad.

  48. There’s no way Blake’s staying in LA now he’s not going to be interested in being there without Paul. Also, how about kicking the tires on a melo trade to Houston now that Paul is there. You have to think he wouldn’t mind going there to play with Chris Paul and James harden. Problem is he would have to reunite with dantoni.

  49. I wonder if Derrick Rose heard about Phil, but I can’t find him anywhere. Has anyone seen Derrick?

  50. Yeah, I don’t know if this is Paul doing a kindness for his former franchise, or simply trying to extract more money through a sign-and-trade, but that’s more than I’d have expected the Clips to get if he wanted to go.

  51. I think Phil leaving makes it much more likely that Melo can be dealt for 2 reasons:

    1) I really believe their relationship was so poisoned that Melo would veto any deal just to piss off Phil. Now he can make a decision for basketball and career legacy reasons.

    2) The rest of the league, esp. Cleveland, should realize that the Knicks are not going to buy out Melo’s contract and if they want him, they have to offer something. And I do think some team out there will be willing to do that.

  52. If Paul George doesn’t go to Houston there’s a good chance that Melo is their back up plan. Idk how we would make the salaries match tho.

  53. @72. I agree dantoni most likely wants nothing to do with melo on that team but I doubt he would really have a say in the matter. If Paul and harden want melo dantoni is going to have to accept it.

  54. There is absolutely no way Morey forces Melo on D’Antoni. The Clippers, on the other hand, could now really be on the lookout for another “superstar”.

  55. Any way you slice it Melo is piss-poor value at $27M. Only dummy teams would want Melo at that exorbitant price.

    Just let him play out the string. That’s the only play here.

  56. Jax leaving should be an improvement unless Dolan brings back Isaiah, which he is absolutely stupid enough to do. Then this will turn into a real shit show…..

  57. Is there a Melo to Houston trade we would want? Obviously we’d have to take Ryan Anderson’s deal which has an extra year on it. I think Melo for Anderson and Harrell would be cap-legal.

  58. That Clippers team is so barren now. We’ve all been hard on Phil, rightfully so, but bringing in Doc to replace him would be a disaster

  59. So happy Phil is gone.

    1) I really believe their relationship was so poisoned that Melo would veto any deal just to piss off Phil. Now he can make a decision for basketball and career legacy reasons.

    I really believe Melo cares much more about location than winning.

  60. I think the Clippers are in straight blow it all up mode right now. Jerry West had to see the writing on the wall that the team isn’t good enough to contend, so why spin your wheels. I’m curious as to if they can convince Blake to do the same type of deal that CP3 just did. Opt-in and get traded to a contender that has good pieces to give away.

  61. If you’re a contender and you have $27M of cap space to burn there are simply better ways to use that than spending it on Carmelo Anthony.

  62. @IanBegley 21m21 minutes ago

    FWIW: associate head coach Kurt Rambis is here at Knicks practice in Orlando.

    Doesn’t necessarily mean anything long-term, but it would be nice if both had been given the heave-ho at once, as opposed to waiting for the new boss.

  63. Damn, the Rockets fleeced the Clippers. Not sure if Paul will be worth $40M in a few years, but they might be a 3rd 60-win team in the West next year. Crazy.

  64. I am pretty depressed about this move. Not because I love Phil (he’s an ego-centric dick), or because I think he’s done an amazing job (Noah, NTC, etc). But because one way or the other Melo’s time here was clearly coming to an end.

    Now I feel certain that Melo is never going. Whatever GM we bring in will be keeping him. He will retire a Knick.

    That makes me more than depressed. I’ll try not to think about it – it’s always possible that isn’t how things play out – but those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. And the lessons of history? Jimmy Dolan cares a lot more about having his star pals around (Isiah) than about the team’s success. He seems to buy whatever they’re selling.

    Christ, we were so close to a true clean slate!

  65. @ 86 – I would not be so sure about that. I mean, there is a very good chance that this move makes it MORE likely Melo is going. I honestly think it was to the point where melo was like “fuck phil, I’m not leaving” because of what he said about him in the press. And maybe now this actually creates a space in Melo’s mind where he will be more open to getting traded.

    And if he does stay (for now), I’d rather him stay and be happy and play harder, which I think is much more likely now. It means that he’s gonna be easier to trade come the deadline.

  66. I think these are the numbers: With Phil:
    -Odd of trading Melo: 5%
    -Odds of buying Melo out: 5%
    -Odds of Melo being here 2 more years: 90%
    -Odds of Melo playing better than he did last year: 20%

    Without Phil:
    -Odds of trading Melo: 5%
    -Odds of buying Melo out: 5%
    -Odds of Melo being here 2 more years: 90%
    -Odds of Melo playing better than he did last year: 50%

  67. Morey is not trading for Melo.

    He had interest in the past, but Melo was younger and the offer mostly 4 year/80 million contract.

    But a declining 33 yo Melo + 30 million? He´s too smart for that.

  68. Melo ain’t going anywhere. He was only going to the Cavs for the extra kicker/buyout/vetmin. He cares about staying in NYC with family, and he cares about money.

    I hope I’m wrong but he’s staying a Knick for a long time

  69. @88 I think you’re overrating Melo’s pettiness. It seems like he likes living in New York and having his family here. Maybe he’ll entertain a buyout eventually to go join Cleveland or Houston for half-a-season, but I don’t see him approving a trade anytime soon.

  70. I do want to see what Hornacek is capable of with this roster. I mean, assuming this Teague (vomit) noise is real, he could end up with a roster like TeagueOrComparable/Lee/Melo/KP/HG, with Frank, Baker, Kuz, Noah and O’quinn off the bench. That’s good enough for mediocre-purgatory.

    I hate to say it, but we may have ended up better off with The Phil ShitShow with excellent draft picks.

  71. Why not just promote Warkentien to GM? The off-season is already in full swing, somebody needs to be running the show, and that guy has some base-level competence.

  72. Steve Mills, the team’s general manager, will run the day-to-day business of the organization over the short term. Tim Leiweke, who brings tremendous expertise and experience in sports franchise management from both Toronto and Los Angeles and is our partner in the Oak View Group, will advise and work with Steve on an interim basis to help develop a go-forward plan.

    This makes enough sense it’s scaring me a little. Leiweke was part of the Seattle Seahawks brass responsible for bringing in and negotiating the power-sharing arrangement between Pete Carroll and John Schneider. He’s a well-respected guy in terms of organizational-level strategic management, which is precisely what the franchise needs. That’s not a bad look. Not at all, actually.

  73. Holy crap am I ever glad that Jackson is leaving.

    Getting Ujiri at the cost of draft picks is something he himself would object to so strongly that he would negate his own existence in a little cloud of swirling antimatter bubbles over the tiny table as he signed his contract. This would be interesting but not good.

  74. I think Melo will miss Phil, only because with Phil around he was starting to look like a sympathetic figure to the public. Now that he’s gone, everyone will start realizing that Melo was to blame as well for this team being this bad.

  75. Really glad that phil is gone but hate that we essentially wasted a draft pick on a ‘triangle’ guard….

    In either case… the decision was a good one even though it shouldve came a month sooner…

  76. I’d agree that Paul and Harden are not the ideal fit but they are going to be awesome nonetheless. Not good enough to beat the Warriors though.

  77. Ironically, announcing the Phil departure today will now be relegated to minor importance in NBA media due to the Chris Paul trade. Good news for Dolan.

    I’ve read that Blake Griffin hated Paul, so maybe he stays now? Or not?

    Will Paul and Harden be able to mesh? Seems unlikely to me, but we’ll see.

  78. I think Melo will miss Phil, only because with Phil around he was starting to look like a sympathetic figure to the public. Now that he’s gone, everyone will start realizing that Melo was to blame as well for this team being this bad.

    This. The scapegoats have gone. The next candidates are Hornacek and then KP himself.

  79. @101 – I don’t think it was a wasted pick. I think what we got was a young talent that needs molding. He comes here with a rep for defense. Nobody has learned the triangle outside of MSG. The kid’s been raised on Euro-ball and pick-and-roll. The bigger issue for him, and what I’m interested in seeing, is if he’s a smart, take-charge leader. The point guard needs swagger, vision and smarts. Is he a floor general or can he be? It’s hard for a teenager to answer that.

  80. Jowles, CP told LA he was going to walk if they didn’t trade him, so they didn’t have any leverage.

  81. Can we unban Reub for like an hour so we can all make fun of him and then ban him again forever?

  82. Why was Reub banned? Is being a homer a violation of some rule or was he caught on Instagram partying with JR?

  83. @101 – I don’t think it was a wasted pick. I think what we got was a young talent that needs molding. He comes here with a rep for defense. Nobody has learned the triangle outside of MSG. The kid’s been raised on Euro-ball and pick-and-roll. The bigger issue for him, and what I’m interested in seeing, is if he’s a smart, take-charge leader. The point guard needs swagger, vision and smarts. Is he a floor general or can he be? It’s hard for a teenager to answer that.

    One of the things I liked best about Ntilikina is that I thought he was so young and adaptable that I thought he could adapt in two years when the Knicks replaced the Triangle. Now he doesn’t even have to!

  84. He’s obviously an older (and worse) player now, but the last time that Melo was in a position where he had no scapegoats left to blame was when D’Antoni was fired and Melo responded in a big way. Maybe it will happen again.

  85. Reub got banned because he thought rape apologism was a fun thing to add to his trolling toolbox.

  86. What the hell are with the calls to bring in Mark Jackson? I’ve seen comments in favor all over the internet and now dumbass SAS is calling for it. What in his time at GSW would give anyone the idea that he’d be a good hire?

  87. In response to many points, I’m confident we selected Frank because we liked him better than Smith, not because he fit the triangle better. Frank is bigger, doesn’t have a surgically repaired knee, and is a plus defender. I trust Gaines selected him for those reasons.

  88. Why was Reub banned?

    Reub was banned – that sucks…i get he enjoyed getting under folks’ skin – but, come on man – this is the internet…isn’t that kind of what social “discourse” is all about…

    as the saying goes – “it takes two to tango”…and, if he got under your skin that badly – that’s on you…

    i get that more than likely he was asked/warned to toe the line a little better on several occasions…people are who they are – but, i would hope being a knick fan alone would pretty much guarantee inclusion on this site…

    every one has that crazy relative whom shows up at family gatherings making things a little weird…it’s what makes being a family – being a family…

  89. Though their styles aren’t an obvious fit, I’m guessing Paul will figure out how to make Harden better. Dantoni+Paul is also a promising beginning to an equation. It will be fascinating to see what it equals.

  90. Reub got banned because he thought rape apologism was a fun thing to add to his trolling toolbox.

    okay…forgot about that one…yeah, that wasn’t good…

  91. Well, Hubert, so much for the knee angle…

    Ian Begley
    ESPN Staff Writer

    Frank Ntilikina was icing his knee and appeared to walk gingerly out of the practice gym. Unclear if he’s hurt.

  92. I’d give up a lottery-protected pick for Ujiri. Not a potential top 15 pick.

    I wouldn’t even give up a first rounder for him period, and I think he’s brilliant. That’s just too much for a bad team to give up. If the Knicks were a decent team, fair enough, but anything less than a #20 pick is too much for an executive, even a really good one, and the Knicks won’t be picking in the 20s for some time. But fine, I guess I should say I would trade a Top 20 protected first rounder.

  93. I really think we got lucky, though, with Phil being able to run the draft before departing. The one thing the team has been good at since he came has been drafting talent (even if you think it was all Gaines, Phil had the discretion). So he was allowed to do that, and thankfully not allowed to do what he has been not so good at, which is free agency and offseason trades.
    I consider this a victory for us downtrodden Knick die-hards! Maybe we are due for more good fortune…

  94. If you’re a contender and you have $27M of cap space to burn there are simply better ways to use that than spending it on Carmelo Anthony.

    Yes but if you have ~$22mm of dead salary on your roster (and most contenders do), you’d consider trading it for Melo.

  95. Harrell is apparently part of the deal so my Anderson/Harrell for Melo deal is already dead.

  96. too funny…my same exact thought when i heard the news:

    Ding dong the witch is dead!

    second thought:

    DRed for GM

    reference phil: well, looks like melo wasn’t such a bad mentor to kp after all…

    still happy with the frank pick…wasn’t that i thought DSjr was gonna be a bust, or have his knee blowup – just didn’t think he’d fit in smoothly in NY…

    can we just give toronto melo for ujiri…seems like a win win for all :-)

  97. Reub got banned because he was guilty of offending SJWs. You see, he’s a misogynistic rape apologist, and probably a bigoted racist cis hetero shitlord on top of that.

    For the record, he wasn’t being a “rape apologist”. An apologist is someone who excuses an act. Reub did not excuse or defend rape. He said that the kid was accused, not convicted, so maybe he didn’t do it.

  98. Sad day. This means the Melo cancer will continue to rot the Knicks for the forseeable future. Don’t believe the Houston rumors. Just 3 months ago D Antoni said that Carmelo was the reason he left NY. He won’t bring him to Houston. I hope they at least don’t trade Frank and future picks for Griffin/Love or DeAndre.

  99. Reub was not here in good faith. He was here specifically to be an asshole, and the posts that got him banned were fully in that spirit.

    I don’t have a problem with any other person who posts here.

  100. I shouldn’t be bothered by Stephen A Smith, but I just saw he was campaigning to hire Mark Jackson as coach. Can you shut up until there is a job opening? There’s no need to fire Hornacek right now, certainly not to bring in Mark Jackson.

  101. Why would Houston want melo when they have Ariza, who’s better? I could definitely see Paul George being a good fit though.

  102. Wow, I mean, you’re never going to win a deal when you’re the one who is giving up CP3, but in a situation where they were going to lose CP3 no matter what, the Clippers got a huge return.

  103. Reub was not here in good faith.

    that’s a pretty legitimate point jk47…and, i’ve only really been tuned in for about a year…thinking about it in terms of “years” though of purposefully rubbing folks the wrong way…i can kind of understand the decision a little better…

    just always came across to me as someone whom simply wished to “connect” with others – which in a way is something we’re all doing…doing so in this fashion:

    He was here specifically to be an asshole

    does though kind of detract from the focus being on the knicks…

    wherever in the world you might be at this moment reub – wish you well sir…

  104. From FanSided:
    “According to Ian Begley of ESPN New York, Dotson impressed Knicks executives at his pre-draft workout on Tuesday, June 6.

    Houston’s Damyean Dotson impressed in his workout on Tuesday, per a source with knowledge of the proceedings. Dotson shot well and showed versatility on the defensive end in the workout, per the source.
    That’s a promising sign for Dotson, who should be considered a legitimate option at No. 44 and No. 58 overall in the 2017 NBA Draft.

    The 23-year-old Dotson stands at 6’6? and 205 pounds with a 6’9? wingspan and plus athleticism. He recorded a 38.0? max vertical leap and ranked fourth at the 2017 NBA Draft Combine in the three quarter sprint—a drill that measures end-to-end speed.

    With the size, strength, length, leaping ability, and speed of a prototypical shooting guard, Dotson has the physical tools that Phil Jackson has proven to covet.”

    https://dailyknicks.com/2017/06/08/knicks-rumors-damyean-dotson-impresses-draft-workout/

  105. I’m going to make a bold prediction: Dotson will prove to be one of the most productive players in this draft during his rookie year, and possibly a ROY candidate.

  106. @126

    Reub got banned because he literally said that being from a tough household excuses you morally from gang raping someone

  107. @120 – Agree 100%. You don’t give up anything for a coach or a GM.
    On the other hand, the Patriots did well with Belichek and all the Jets got was Curtis Martin.

  108. sure, Z. Rookie of the year is going to come down to Ball, Fox, Fultz, Simmons or Dotson

  109. Just because Phil is gone, it doesn’t mean we should start entertaining trading draft picks!

  110. Only b/c Dotson is old compared to those guys. The freshman PGs are all gonna get smoked next year. Simmons is coming off of a bad foot and is also tres young. They’ll catch up, but being 24 is a huge advantage out of the gate. Making 100+ 3’s as a senior at 44% and 8 rebs per 40 with a pro-ready body and athleticism doesn’t hurt either, nor does being MVP of Portsmouth tournament. Look, we picked up Willy in the 2nd round and he could have easily been ROY with more minutes and better coaching.

  111. Reub is gone? Good riddance to that shitbird. His entire shtick was lame and contributed nothing of substance to this blog.

  112. How much of Ujiri’s trademeister rep is really due to the Knicks’ ineptitude rather than his own skill? Was it candy from a baby or did he have to be really good to pull those off?

  113. How much of Ujiri’s trademeister rep is really due to the Knicks’ ineptitude rather than his own skill? Was it candy from a baby or did he have to be really good to pull those off?

    This. It will be a lot harder to look like a trade genius if he’s working for the one team he kept ripping off… But I still think he would be a great hire!

  114. So what does Houston need now? Another 3? Another 4? I presume they bring Nene back, so the 5 will be set.

  115. I think Smith Jr. wins rookie of the year. He’s going to get a ton of minutes and should put up numbers on a team that won’t totally suck. Fultz and Simmons will have to share the ball (and probably roy votes) with each other and the Lakers will stink plus Ball won’t score that much. Dotson can’t create his own offense so he’ll be dependent on the Knicks’ point guards or Melo to get him open shots which means he has no chance barring a trade/signing. I should add that if Sacto surprises and Fox shoots okay he has a shot too.

  116. I think both melo and cp3 will play together next year.

    LeBron will also be a FA right?

    Dude… LeBron to Houston makes sense. Paul, Harden, LeBron, literally anyone, Capela. They would win 70.

  117. @149

    This. You can have a lot of leeway as a GM if you know how to attract easy marks in trades. Ujiri is excellent at this. He’s also good at player evaluation besides the Derozan contract (which I think was probably something he did for reasons other than basketball productivity, too.)

  118. How much of Ujiri’s trademeister rep is really due to the Knicks’ ineptitude rather than his own skill? Was it candy from a baby or did he have to be really good to pull those off?

    Carmelo, Bargnani, Gay. No matter who was responsible for it, those three transactions were better than anything the Knicks have done since they traded for Camby.

  119. 6/30: Knicks acauire Ujiri
    7/1: Joakim Noah traded to Sacramento for a first round pick and three second-round picks.

  120. What’s with ujiri? He is under contact with the raptors right so why are we targeting him?

    Teams get guys under contract all the time. They just often have to give draft compensation for them. When Chip Wallace was signed away by Memphis, they only gave up a second-rounder, but the really good guys like Ujiri would probably cost a first rounder and I’d probably balk at that (unless it is at least lottery protected, but even there, I might balk at anything in the teens). Maybe a 2021 lottery-protected pick?

  121. I would never want anyone that drafted one of the biggest busts ever, not to mention a guy who was on nobody’s draft board, at #1.

  122. I’d so be down with Hinkie, but I doubt it’d ever happen. Dolan’s reason for wanting Ujiri is mostly the cachet of Ujiri, not that Ujiri is really smart. Hinkie very much does not have that cachet. He has, like, anti-cachet.

  123. Along those same lines, Paul reportedly became fed up with Rivers—who is also the team’s president of basketball operations—when he nixed a trade last season that could have landed the Clippers Carmelo Anthony.

    “New York offered Carmelo and Sasha Vujacic to the Clippers in exchange for Jamal Crawford, Paul Pierce and Austin Rivers, a deal to which Rivers ultimately said no. That event led Paul to feel that keeping his son on the roster was more important to Doc than improving the team.”

    Citing a league executive, Eaves reported Paul now “despises” Rivers because of how those situations were handled.

    Wow

    This guy is definitely worse at his job than Phil

  124. Griffin would be fine but I’m not really sure what his credentials are besides taking over a team that happens to be in the state where LeBron James was born. I guess he’s done a decent job of adding some depth, but nothing extraordinary.

    He’s probably only 1,000 times better than Phil Jackson, so we could do better.

  125. I wouldn’t be opposed to Griffin on the general 0.000001% chance that signing him might make Lebron want to come here.

  126. @167 We need to engage the Clippers in Melo trade talks ASAP before Ballmer realizes what a dumbass Rivers is.

  127. @167 We need to engage the Clippers in Melo trade talks ASAP before Ballmer realizes what a dumbass Rivers is.

    Clippers might b in fire sale mode if Blake leaves

  128. I say no to trading a 1st round pick for Uriji. He’s a great GM but the Knicks must keep their picks and acquire more if possible.

    ANYONE but Isaiah – Have Mercy we’ve suffered enough!

    Not sure how CP3 and Harden will mesh. Harden was ridiculous at the 1 last year and now has to share the ball with Paul – should be interesting

  129. There’s no way I believe that

    The part of the quote I cut off was referring to how Doc was easier on Austin in practice, and players resenting that. So it’s possible.

  130. The aim in re-signing Carmelo Anthony to a no-trade contract was (as the triangle unfolded) to have Melo get the ball at the pinch-post, i.e., one elbow or the other. From there, he would be one or two dribbles away from the hoop, and too isolated to be easily double-teamed.

    When the triangle fails to generate a good look and the shot clock is expiring, getting the ball to someone who can create his own shots is a necessity. In other words, Melo was given the chance to be the next Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant.

    But Anthony wanted no part of sacrificing his hold-and-shoot game in favor of a team-oriented attack.

    (By the way, despite its many critics, the triangle can still be a viable and effective NBA offense … but that’s another story.)

    Uh, what? Was Phil expecting for Melo to turn into MJ at 29 years of age because of Triangle set spacing? Jesus Christ.

  131. All told, signing Noah was an unmitigated disaster — not totally of Jackson’s making.

    Lord, one day grant me a friend who is as blindly loyal to me as Charley Rosen is to Phil.

  132. Good, now I want to see Hornacek coaching without anyone telling him what to do. It would be nice to get him a playmaker PG, hopefully Rubio, since PGs in free agency might get too expensive.

    Phil Jackson was not that bad until last year, when he messed it really bad. I was hoping to see the team with some continuity, and then he had to trade half the team again. I kind of understood the upside of signing Rose, although I thought the odds of him becoming good again were really low (in the end he improved a bit, but not that much). But signing Noah was brutal, he could not make a layup for the last two years before coming here. Now again injured and then on PEDs. Terrible.

  133. yeah – old charley and phil definitely not helping to give “seniors” any kind of good rep…

    other than halfway decent punctuation – why is charley still writing – more importantly – why is fanrag posting his stuff…

    whatever the definition of journalism is – that can’t be it…

  134. Warriors relieved CP3 didn’t end up in San Antonio. Not exactly sure how this Houston thing will work, but Paul on the Spurs is scary!

  135. I can’t envision an offense where cp3 and harden coexist. They’re both way too ball dominant.

  136. This is Charley Rosen’s closing line.

    Jackson should be remembered not only for his rings, but for his honesty, loyalty, willingness to take risks, and above all for being, to all who know him well, a championship-caliber human being.

    is there a vomit emoticon or one of those kissy face memes they do with Putin and Trump.

  137. https://www.fanragsports.com/nba/knicks/rosen-analyzing-phil-jacksons-tenure-knicks/

    Rosen is right on all counts. The hysteria by Phil’s critics (e.g., overblown concern about the LBJ posse comment; griping that Phil gently told the truth about Carmelo’s ball-stopping and obliquely implied he didn’t play defense; among many others) is spot-on.

    Rosen didn’t described how Phil erred in granting the NTC; that’s the biggest error and deserves a truthful explanation.

    Noah was not seen as an error at the time of signing. He’s a defender and an enthusiastic teammate. He could have and still may help this team play better.

    Carmelo should go. As long as he’s a Knick, they will fail.

  138. Noah was not seen as an error at the time of signing.

    Yes it was. By everyone. Even the people who thought he might be healthier at the start of the contract said it was too much money for way too many years.

  139. “I can’t envision an offense where cp3 and harden coexist. They’re both way too ball dominant.”

    This +1

  140. Phil inherited a team of immature disruptive players (Felton, JR, Shumpert, and I’d possibly even include Chandler in that), no 1st round picks in 2 of the 3 years of his leadership, and no cap space.

    He turned it into Porzingis, Hernangomez (back to back all rookie players), Ntilikina, all our draft picks going forward, and cap space this year to add some key role players.

    That’s the best position the team has been in for about 2 decades.

    Did he make mistakes?

    Sure.

    1. He gave Noah 4 years despite his injury history and age.

    2. He brought back Melo (an overrated player set to start declining) and trusted that he could change someone that wouldn’t change for coaches D’Antoni and Karl (coach of the year winners).

    3. He gave Melo a NTC and compounded error #2.

    But all in all we are in MUCH better shape now.

    All this team needs to do is rid itself of Melo once and for all, play an offense that will be more popular than the triangle so we can attract free agents better, bring in a management with the ability to think beyond the current season. and hope that the incompetent anti Knick parasites in the NBA media give our new management team a break and stop trying to stir the pot and create controversy where none exists and other wise destroy the progress of this rebuild.

    I am confident all that can happen other than us getting neutral coverage from the hateful excrement in the media.

  141. And someone (Woj?) tweeted this morning that Paul chose Houston over San Antonio because he wants to play off the ball more, as opposed to being responsible for everything on a team’s offense. It still doesn’t make sense to me, but if both guys are willing to take turns as the primary ballhandler, maybe it works?

  142. It’s not ideal, but Westbrook and Durant did fine together and with a smart coach like D’Antoni, it should be fine. They’re both so good and they both love to pass, as well.

  143. Yeah, and these two chose to team up. It’s not like (TRIGGER WARNING from the Isiah Thomas era) the Knicks trading for Z-Bo when they already had Eddy Curry, or the Knicks trading for Steve Francis when they already had Marbury. These are two players with similar skillsets who want to play together and feel they can complement one another.

  144. I’m with you more or less strat until your last paragraph, because James Dolan still owns the team

  145. Hinkie would be hilarious

    Most Knicks fans and NBA media types are incapable of thought beyond the current season. Bringing in a brilliant guy that thinks in terms of 5-10 year value investing would be so hilarious I might hurt myself laughing. There isn’t a beat writer that could even understand his writings on value, let alone disagree with them coherently.

  146. I’m with you more or less strat until your last paragraph, because James Dolan still owns the team

    I’m trying really hard to be balanced.

    Phil made some mistakes and didn’t handle players in an ideal fashion, but I think Rosen is correct in saying that he got HORRIBLE press that made matters much worse for him and the team than they should have been. They were reporting one side of the story on everything.

    We are in very good shape right now even though we aren’t that good yet. I hope we don’t blow it.

  147. I’m not sure hornacek is still the coach going into next season. If Dolan goes outside the organization to bring in a big name to run the franchise that person is going to want to bring in their own guy to be the coach. Unless Dolan brings in JVG to do both lol. With that being said, I would like to see what hornacek can do without phil telling him how to coach.

  148. Phil didn’t give up any draft picks and we have a few nice young players. And I can almost forgive the Melo signing if he hadn’t given him the damn NTC.

    But forcing the stupid triangle on a coach and on the players was one of his cardinal sins. And it showed what a stubborn, arrogant prick he is who no NBA player in their right mind would ever want to play for.

  149. If Dolan goes outside the organization to bring in a big name to run the franchise that person is going to want to bring in their own guy to be the coach.

    Dwane Casey predated Ujiri, didn’t he?

  150. I think that Paul and Harden will figure it out. I also think that if _’Antoni could get over himself (and if Paul George is unattainable) that Melo would be a good fit. His critics here have always said that he is not suited to be a #1 option (or even a #2 option) but as #3 he might be perfect. He’s not gonna dominate the ball in an offense with Harden and Paul. But _’Antoni probably wouldn’t let it happen.

  151. @205
    Agree. As I said before, he tried to build around Melo, gave him the NTC, and that was a big mistake. The Rose and Noah deals were also to win with Melo. Fail.

    On the good side; he traded away no first round pics and the there are a few nice young pieces here, and cap space going forward.

    The next hire is so very important, but I’m cynical that Dolan poisons everything. Now Melo needs to go.

  152. Jeff van gundy has been floated around on the radio today as a possible replacement for Phil doubt he’d be interested though and doubt there’s any possibility of that happening.

  153. Jeff van gundy has been floated around on the radio today as a possible replacement for Phil doubt he’d be interested though and doubt there’s any possibility of that happening.

    Please stop hiring people who have never been executives before to be our chief executive. Thank you. If the team wants to bring JVG back as coach if Hornacek gets fired, I’m all ears, even though he’s been out of the game for so long. But get a good executive to be our PBO.

  154. Most of Phil’s major decisions were ill-considered. MMM/NTC was an abomination right from the get-go and the endgame of how that played out was completely predictable. The Rose trade was instantly panned and the way it played out was completely predictable. Hell, Rose actually played better than most thought he would and he still sucked. The Noah signing was instantly panned and went even worse than most predicted.

    He got bad press but mostly because he made shitty moves and acted like an ass.

  155. He got bad press but mostly because he made shitty moves and acted like an ass.

    Nope, it’s because people thought he wanted Jeff Van Gundy’s job in 1999. That’s the only reason. Just that. Not anything else.

  156. Sorry but you’re giving him way too much credit. That team of ‘immature disruptive players’ was a 2-seed a year before Phil inherited them. The team was going to get cap space anyway via its players’ contracts expiring and the cap blowing up by $30 million dollars. Phil was president for over three years, including four drafts, and the Knicks have three draft picks to show for that along with a ton of money committed to past-its-prime/overrated talent for the next three years in Melo/Lee/Thomas/Noah.

    I don’t see how he didn’t do, quite frankly, a terrible job at GM. His first coaching hire was a total bust, and the interim coach he installed was even worse (jury’s out on Hornacek). For all of the talk about ‘immature disruptive players’, his hires nor him personally didn’t do anything to reverse that culture. How are you going to kick out JR Smith but hire Derek Fisher in the name of locker room presence? Or trade for Derrick Rose and then show interest in re-signing him after he went MIA but lash out at KP for skipping an exit meaning? The veneer of ‘culture change’ was paper-thin, and was nothing more than a loyalty test for the coaches and players.

    Worst of all, his arrogance and combativeness alienated him from the league, the media and his own players. I could live with that if there was some evidence of success or even progress or even an ounce of introspection on his part. All I heard, for three fucking years, was ‘the triangle’, despite the fact that it’s a largely antiquated system that has nothing to do with defense, which has been this team’s weakness for seemingly forever. The stupid ‘triangle’ scared off coaches and players, and didn’t make the team any better!

    Fuck him. Good riddance. He was a horrible GM and, I hate to say it because people have said he’s nice, seems like a horrible person. Stubborn and accusatory until the very end. Take your fucking paychecks and go back to Montana.

  157. Has the offseason been better than the regular season? Jimmy Butler traded, Sixers trade up, Phil fired, and Paul traded all before free agency.

  158. Woj just said Knicks are still intent on trading Melo, but no buyout.

    That clippers no trade should make doc unhireable.

  159. Rosen’s article is one of the worst pieces of journalism I’ve ever seen. It’s like a fan-blog written by a 15-year-old.

  160. Whoa the next gm?
    Do we have patience for Sam Hinkie? Any available gm from long list of Spurs management team? How about any ex Knicks who can be a gm?
    Come on Dolan. Give us hope.

  161. That clippers no trade should make doc unhireable.

    That was a great move. He a) doesn’t have $54,000,000 in aging Carmelo Anthony, and b) just got a really good package for Paul. LAClips weren’t going to be much better with Anthony on their roster. Now they get to retool in responsible fashion.

    The nepotism is worrying, of course. But in this particular case, I think it worked in his favor.

  162. That was a great move. He a) doesn’t have $54,000,000 in aging Carmelo Anthony, and b) just got a really good package for Paul. LAClips weren’t going to be much better with Anthony on their roster. Now they get to retool in responsible fashion.

    The nepotism is worrying, of course. But in this particular case, I think it worked in his favor.

    Yeah but they would still have Paul. Not a package.

    Reddick,Paul,Melo, Blake and DJ would have been a good team for the next couple years.

  163. I originally thought CPS and Harden would be redundant until I realized that it allows for both to get breathers in what is a very high octane D’Antoni offense. This way he doesn’t have to burn out his primary ball-handler by playoff time.

  164. That Charley Rosen article is even more terrible than I expected; the man’s so far up Phil’s ass he called Lou Amundson a useful player.

  165. I hope the Houston gets George or even Melo. It will be interesting for paul, harden, Arriza, Melo/George , capela.
    That can surprise the warriors and I think the ex factor is d antoni. He’s a better coach than kerr

  166. I had to stop reading that ridiculous Rosen article when he stated melo needed to go right after whitewashing the NTC Phil gave him for reasons that have still not been explained.
    Plus the punctuation made my head hurt.

  167. I really hope Frank gets to play in Summer League for us. I’d understand if he didn’t, but still. I wanna see him lock up DSJr so you guys can stop clamoring for him. Frank is going to be a beast.

  168. I think a CP3 Harden backcourt is going to do wonders for Harden’s TOV% and effort level on d. Literally no one else is going to handle the ball besides the two of them so there will be plenty of time to share imo. It’s gonna be real nice.

  169. Isn’t it a rumor that Blake emphatically did not want to play with Paul anymore? I could see him returning to the Clips if that was the case, especially since they have a decent-ish team that’s a little younger and maybe a little deeper after the trade.

  170. Yo you guys realize that melo, Lebron, cp3 and wade are going to free agents at the same time right…… melo is opting out for sure. I would try to trade him/buy him out we need to tank this year

  171. It’s interesting that Woj is talking trade because I think he’s also a CAA guy. With LA presumably off the table I can’t imagine where we could trade Melo that he’d willingly go to though

  172. If Blake leaves I would be calling the Clippers on a DeAndre Jordan deal. I’d take DJ and whatever shitty contracts they wanted to dump on us for DJ.

  173. After having just attended a funeral I can attest that Rosen’s article had nothing to do with actual journalism but was instead a eulogy for Phil Jackson’s NBA executive career.

  174. Stop dreaming of Melo leaving. Its clear that Anthony went to Dolan and said its me or him regarding Phil. And of course, our lowly famed musician of an owner chose Carmelo again as it has happened over Amare, D Antoni, Lin and more from 2011 until now…

  175. When Doc Rivers decided not to trade for Carmelo Anthony in a trade that would have included Austin Rivers, Paul’s position on the matter solidified as he viewed the Rivers as putting family over team.

    Seems like Phil almost traded Carmelo in the past too

  176. Its clear that Anthony went to Dolan and said its me or him regarding Phil. And of course, our lowly famed musician of an owner chose Carmelo again

    This doesn’t really make sense.

    MELO: It’s me or Phil.
    DOLAN: Okay, we choose Phil.
    MELO: Okay, then I’m out of here.
    DOLAN: But you have a no trade clause.
    MELO: I’ll waive it.
    DOLAN: Oh, cool!

  177. Its clear that Anthony went to Dolan and said its me or him regarding Phil. And of course, our lowly famed musician of an owner chose Carmelo again as it has happened over Amare, D Antoni, Lin and more from 2011 until now…

    Damn. I wonder why he didn’t do this since during the season. Man, he’s lost his team control fastball

  178. My guess is this had as much to do with Phil’s handling of the KP situation as much as with Melo. Melo’s been here for years and the Knicks haven’t won anything- Dolan can’t like him that much. But KP is the face of the franchise now- the guy who sells jerseys- I’m sure Dolan wasn’t happy about alienating him. The “let’s spend 50 million so Melo can go play with his buddy LBJ” was probably just the last straw.

  179. -ujiri isnt the best option in my eyes for the exact reason that its going to cost a pick.. and we need all of them at this point… connelly in denver is another decent name if we want to give up picks…

    -warkentien would be a solid internal promotion.. def better than houston but feel like itll be more of the same… hughes is another name to look out for but dunno much bout him..

    -weaver (thunder) and zarren (celtics) are solid next in line gm names… not sure how i feel bout hinkie and griffin… hinkie would probably clash with some folks… griffin.. wasnt too thrilled with most of his moves…

  180. FWIW, Woj says the plan is still to move on from Melo. That gives me hope that Phil’s ouster had to do with this absurd KP situation after three years of bumbling incompetence.

    If Dolan actually stays uninvolved like he says he will (enormous “if”), it really would be hard to get worse from here. By the end of Phil’s tenure I truly believe he was in the running for worst executive in the NBA. It didn’t help that he was operating in an era in which a lot of teams made a point to modernize their front offices.

  181. No Hinkie please- he did a great job stockpiling assets and a poor job using them- not the best drafter and didn’t find any real diamonds in the rough despite loading his team up with d-leaguers. The Knicks have KP and Willy (and hopefully Frank) to build around so I’d much prefer someone who has actually built a winning team rather than someone who just used cap space to acquire draft picks. Hopefully, Nobleface said above, Dolan will get someone good and stay out of his way- he does that with Sather and did it with Phil so it’s possible he’s learned his lesson.

  182. “For the record, he wasn’t being a “rape apologist”. An apologist is someone who excuses an act. Reub did not excuse or defend rape. He said that the kid was accused, not convicted, so maybe he didn’t do it.”

    That’s how I remember it too.

  183. I think with hinkie he def had the right mindset… he literally won every trade… hes had mixed results with actual picks….

    We def need to jettison some folks out of here… which is why i think hes a decent name at this point… but its def going to be polarizing which ia why ita probably not gonna happen…. whoever the next name is… it’s def going to come with some warts…

  184. So Jeff Teague maybe? Total Meh move but fine: An actual living, breathing point guard for once.

  185. I think reub was banned for language. It’s a shame. He was a Phil apologist, but he did pay attention to college basketball and made reasonable comments about potential picks

  186. Here’s a fun stat for you: Phil was paid $60 million for his tenure at the Knicks. He was GM for about 1,200 days, meaning he was paid approximately $50,000.00 per day.

    Probably a good move giving Phil the flick. It seemed he wasn’t super keen to initially go past the 1st 3 years anyway. Classic Knicks though. Extend your GM for $24 million, then fire him 6 weeks later. Just screams business acumen right? As far as where Phil stands in comparison to some, he gets a solid “meh”. Some bad moves mixed in with good, means the team is now in a slightly better position than when he inherited it, but not so much that he gets a pass.

    Teague is an underwhelming FA prospect, but on a team friendly deal you could do worse. I would be fine with Teague as long as his deal didn’t extend beyond 2019. All I really want is to see Hornacek get a bit of autonomy over the team, I feel if he can implement more of the system he ran in Phoenix before management stooged him, I think we will see a happier locker room.

  187. Reub was banned for getting under people’s skin and being an unapologetic homer??? That’s fucked up! The rape thing is nonsense in my opinion. He just firmly stated that the guy was accused and not convicted and didn’t deserve to be spoken of as if he had been found guilty.

    There are several irritating posters on this forum (depending on your point of view). Reub, was Reub and for the most part I thought he was mostly entertaining. Nothing I took to seriously. Still don’t get what he posted that was worthy of being banned for.

    Anyway, Phil was awful and basically stealing Dolan’s money in my opinion. I hope we don’t lose Gaines in the process. Why is Rambis still here???

  188. Knicks could have paid me 6 million and the team would unquestionably be in better shape

    We have all been saying DRed for GM for years. Can we get a change.org petition going? Not sure how much pull those have with billionaires, but worth a shot.

  189. He just firmly stated that the guy was accused and not convicted and didn’t deserve to be spoken of as if he had been found guilty.

    Did you read anything about the case or are you looking to get banned too?

    The DA said the rape happened but they wouldn’t be able to indict.

    Keep in mind this is an slam dunk for the defense if she consented to entering the room with the players and was raped after entering.

    Don’t defend a rapist just because he wears a jersey that you like. That’s fucked up.

  190. I consider myself a Knicks fan but have been rooting against them since JVG resigned and will continue to do so until Dolan sells the team. Ok there were a few months where I got sucked into the Rasheed Wallace, Shump, Novak team.

    Anyway, I root against them as a tough love / greater good mentality. Melo was never bringing a championship. Dolan is never bringing a championship. Every time something “Knicksy” happens I come to this site and feed off your tears (no offense).

    I’ve been skimming through this thread looking for reubs rosy take on this mess only to learn he’s been banned?? Come on guys, let him back so I can enjoy his ridiculous optimism on this miserable franchise.

  191. First of all, there is nothing in my post defending anyone except perhaps Reub. I didn’t read anything in his posts that indicated that he was necessarily defending the accused rapist. I think he disagreed with the comments that several people posted about the incident. There is no possible defense for the act of rape. I sat on a criminal trial jury once and saw a young man being tried for a crime that any reasonable person would have reasonable doubt that he could have committed based on the evidence and testimony presented. And yet, the DA was adamant that the crime had occured and the accused was guilty of said crime. The case presented to the jury proved otherwise and we returned a not guilty verdict in less than an hour of deliberation.
    Secondly CJ, I didn’t realize you were in a position to threaten anyone with being banned anyway. Is this your way of censoring all dissenting opinions?

  192. Stephen A. Smith reporting that if Carmelo Anthony receives a buyout from the NY Knicks, he'll head to Houston to join Harden and CP3.— Fletcher Mackel (@FletcherWDSU) June 28, 2017

  193. See a few people are disappointed that they can’t see what reub is saying today. If you’re curious, feel free to come over to Ultimate Knicks. He hasn’t been banned there (yet).

  194. Lmao at Jowles. Oh, the DA said he’s guilty, so he must be guilty! A real student of the criminal justice system we have here!
    That’s dumber than anything reub has ever said.
    And fuck off for threatening to have people banned.

  195. So – what would people here give up to get Masai here?

    I think I’d cap it at two 2nd rounders. Figure we could buy picks to make that up.
    Hard to say though – I could be convinced to do a top 20 protected 2019 1st round pick that turns into two 2nd-rounders in 2020 if not conveyed.

    Check out his executive record — really impressive trade history, reasonably good draft history as well.

    What about guys like Mike Zarren from Boston (Ainge’s lieutenant)?

  196. I feel we will go the usual course of going after a brand name GM (e.g. going hard for an Ujiri, Hinkie, Griffin type) which is fine I guess. I wouldn’t be opposed to a first timer that has good pedigree/comes from a good system ( e.g. Zarren).

    I wouldn’t have much of an issue with a promotion from within, but I think the better option is to always go with an outsider.

  197. “For the record, he wasn’t being a “rape apologist”. An apologist is someone who excuses an act. Reub did not excuse or defend rape. He said that the kid was accused, not convicted, so maybe he didn’t do it.”

    That’s how I remember it too.

    Before you canonize reub and vote on his sainthood, this was his last comment on this site while arguing about gang rape:

    We’re all glad that you’re thrilled now put that salami back in your arrogant mouth.

    /nuffsaid

  198. Masai Ujiri would be a dream come true. He’d rob Doc Rivers of DeAndre Jordan, steal Ricky Rubio from Thibodeau, and we’d instantly be competitive in year 1.

    In all seriousness, I would be so excited for our future if we had a genius like Ujiri running the organization. The Raptors were a healthy Kyle Lowry away from going to back-to-back conference finals. He’s made some errors (like the Carroll contract), but in a conference dominated by LeBron James he’s put together about as competitive a roster as you could hope for. Imagine what he would do on a team with Ntilikina, Porzingis, and Hernangomez?

  199. I’d give up a top 20 protected 2019 pick for Ujiri or two seconds

    I’d also hire Mike Zarren . We can only go up as long as Allan Houston or Zeke aren’t involved

  200. There are lots of opinions I’d like to share publicly that I keep to myself. The overarching law to this board is keep the discussion going, and when multiple people are complaining about the comments of one person, over a long period of time, there are only two results. Either the person changes their behavior or they get banned. Reub had a warning, and for the short time after ward his posts were actually enjoyable (by me at least). Yet shortly after he reverted to his disruptive self.

    I don’t think I need to justify his banning past this. His own words doomed himself.

  201. understood mike…at the end of the day it’s both yourself and brian’s task to control the decorum and flow of the site…

    I’m not a part of too many forums, so – I really appreciate what you both do, and, what knickerblogger is…

    as wonderful and entertaining as some of the personalities are here – the focus should be on the knicks…

    personally, I’m just kind of disappointed by the situation (mostly for reub)…seemed like the knicks and this site meant a lot to him…

    it is what it is though – sometimes folks have a hard time of staying out of their own way…

    kinda like he was 60 or 70 something going on 16 or 17…

    ma always told me – “a hard head makes for a soft ass”…

    hmmmm, we made need to find another total contrarian though to keep things lively…

    Phil apologists are a bit of a rare breed…maybe just a club of two – charley and reub…

  202. I’m just a dumb person here that Jowles doesn’t really like, but I’m glad to be here to read about everything. :)

  203. I’m not a Phil apologist, but I think most people here are way too hard on him. We are decently positioned going forward, and that’s because of Phil. It isn’t damning with faint praise to say he kept his picks and did well with them – it’s absolutely essential. He did better than Hinkie in that dept, for instance. Our cap situation is decent. Hornacek seems to be a decent coach. And he stressed system basketball over iso.

    The Melo NTC is awful. The Noah signing was bad (though I suspect it may end up not being the disaster people see it as today). The Rose rental went better than I expected and was still terrible. But all of those bad moves seem to flow from a point of view of “we have Melo, so we should build a win-now team around him.” Melo is the original sin; Phil was just dealing with it, as our new GM will be as well.

    I don’t think he was great. Maybe not even good. But he isn’t the unmitigated disaster people claim. I mean, he was trying to make the exact Melo trade with the Clips we were all talking about! And same with rubio – we’ll never know if the Rose/Rubio thing was real, but it sounded like he was trying to do it without giving up a pick. Which, again, almost all of us would have been thrilled with.

    Don’t let frustration disrupt reason. He did bad stuff, he did good stuff, we’re in decent shape. Hell of a lot better than it has been.

  204. How funny would it be if we do end up with Ujiri and he’s responsible for shipping out melo a second time?

  205. I was listening to some podcast today where someone mentioned some player only meeting in December where things really turned to shit, and, then so did the season…

    folks were also wondering exactly what was the final straw for dolan…

  206. I find this site to be very tolerant of all the “personalities” that people bring here. The problem is always when that personality takes over the forum and drives actual And reasonable contributors away.

    If Italian Stallion only posted now and again about billiards, no one would have minded. But, he posted every three minutes about it, and it grew tiring.

    If Clyde Police only posted about Clyde’s negativity causing the Knicks to lose when Clyde was actually being nagtive, that would have been tolerated. But he blamed the Glide for everything all day long, and it made the blog truly dumb.

    DogRufus, too, while annoying, only drove people completely nuts because he made 40% of all the posts on every thread during his time here.

    I found Reub’s schtick annoying, and tuned out of most threads because of him. But that was because, like the other banished personalities, to skip over his posts meant to basically skip over entire threads because he responded to everybody and everything in the same inane and conciously contrarian manner.

    I think KB will survive his departure. I look forward to better conversations taking place in his absence.

  207. Philmelo actually contributes to discussion despite his occasional flamey behavior and he doesn’t manage to apologize for gang rape in the process

    There’s a small period of time here when reub was tolerable. But his takes were by and large unutterably dumb

  208. I hope Ron comes back too despite his putrid numbers

    I like the guy

  209. So if you contribute to the discussion (a very subjective term) it’s alright to say things that are disgustingly offensive?

    I don’t think think so.

    People who say offensive things here typically get warned privately to stop. And if they don’t, they get banned.

    That’s the way it’s worked in the past, and Mike indicated in this thread that that policy stands.

    (And, the way I see it, this site is pretty much the only sports site I’ve ever read that doesn’t devolve into base behavior in every thread. It’s a testament to the moderators that the conversation on this site remains as elevated as it does).

  210. @291

    There was a deleted post (not deleted by reub) about how we shouldn’t judge because he came from a rough household (which he also just assumed, stereotypically)

    Never mind how the whole discussion was in bad faith. But let’s not waste any more breath on the dearly departed.

  211. I know reub gets an erection every time he’s mentioned, but reub can get *****

    Good riddance, *** him

    This is just as obnoxiuous as anything Reub said and just as foul language, if not more so. I’d rather read most of Reub’s posts. Are you trying to get yourself banned too?

    Mike, I would like that post deleted.

  212. I cosign Jowles’ post reub was a dumb and obnoxious garbage poster and deserves most any flame he receives

    It’s not about civility, people, it’s about not being a piece of shit

  213. It seems that there’s a mob mentality in here where if you’re in the mob you can say anything no matter how vulgar or tasteless. If you’re not in the mob you can get banned.

  214. I distinctly recall reading anofher poster on here saying things along the lines of “keep him in a dark room and feed him shit.”…that seems to be a glaring double standard.

    Yeah. I agree it is. But I didn’t hear you complain about it at the time. I heard people complaining about Reub on virtually every thread, and dozens of people on his final thread.

    If you don’t like something somebody says, voice your concerns. It’s how civil forums take place.

  215. That’s entirely in your imagination, sorry. This site has always had a relatively high tolerance for vulgarity especially if you weren’t a totally irredeemable poster to begin with

    There’s no double standard if one poster has earned his or her way towards some goodwill and another hasn’t

  216. Charley– You seem to be deleting your posts, so I’m going to stop responding to you. But I’ll say this: if there seems to you to be a mob mentality, you probably haven’t been reading this site very long. Several well-liked, long-time posters were banned for their inability to conform to the decorum standards (not the “mob” standards).

  217. Back to the topic of Basketball and the Knicks, I am reading on twitter (mostly Begley at this stage) that the Knicks are going to extend a qualifying offer to Baker for those who mentioned it above.

  218. Some people have different opinions than me about basketball, Phil Jackson, the Knicks, advanced stats, the eye test, you name it. That’s all well and good. I welcome the debate and the discussion. This place is the most highbrow forum I know about when it comes to hoops. People here are smart and have a good sense of humor, and the caliber of discussion is very high. It’s a great blog.

    Reub was trying to wreck it, because he enjoyed the attention. He’s the worst poster in the history of the blog. There have been some posters here over the years who seemed to have some screws loose (the Clyde Frazier guy) or who were just not very bright (dogrufus) but Reub was something more insidious. He’s not as stupid as he pretends to be, he just play-acts like an unbelievably stupid person because it gets him the attention he so desperately craves. If I want to argue with trolling morons who are not acting in good faith, I’ll go to a YouTube comments section. I don’t need that bullshit here.

  219. Wasn’t Hinkie forced out by the league for too obviously gaming the system? I don’t think anyone’s going to be hiring him for the top spot anytime soon because of that. Once we’ve finished whiffing on Ujiri, Dolan should just bow to the inevitable and hire DRed as PBO. Keep Mills as GM, that part seems fine.

  220. The league definitely pushed the Sixers to hire Jerry Colangelo because they were sick of the Sixers openly tanking, but the Sixers owners originally wanted to keep Hinkie (because the guy kept making brilliant trades), it was Colangelo who ended up convincing them to move on from Hinkie and appoint his son in his place.

  221. I’d rank Reub above Ted Nelson. Tedious Ted. At least Reub’s posts were short, and his actual bball ideas were OK. He was the first to say we’d be picking Ntilikina.

    Forgot about dogrufus. Worse than Ted.

    Wish Jon Abbey were still here, though. Even if he and Jowles together could be like a bleach cocktail….

  222. Well, Hinkie’s a savvy trader and knows how to run an organization so we could definitely do worse than Hinkie reporting to Mills. I don’t think we need multiple years of The Process though, one more year of tanking then we need to be building up.

  223. Lol Ted Nelson & dogrufus were waaaayyyy worse the Reub. We almost need a bracket system to determine this ha ha.

    I wouldn’t be opposed to Hinkie. I also don’t think if he were to come in it would automatically mean he was going to process things up. That Philly team needed to be blown up. He just took it further than anyone ever had. I think if he were to look at the current roster, I don’t think it is a total tear down worthy of 4 years of the process. Just getting a savvy trader in would be great as well. If we could keep Gaines around that could offset Hinke’s so-so drafting record; then to use the word of Car Weathers – “Baby, you’ve got stew going”.

  224. Yeah, Hinkie isn’t like, “Give me your team – I will destroy it!” He just took over a team with no future besides competing for 8th seeds and he rightly blew it up, but he just took a more drastic approach at a total rebuild (although not even all that different than what Presti did in OKC, just more blatant about it). He clearly planned on eventually competing, it just hadn’t come to that point yet. The Knicks are closer due to KP and Willy, so he likely would not recommend tanking as long as he did in Philly.

  225. If the Knicks renounce Rose and use the cap space on Teague, that wouldn’t be too bad, no?

  226. reub deserved to be banned solely because, despite being warned, he refused to let go of an immoral position on an explosive social justice topic. That said, it always tickles me when Jowles, he who has been threatened by the banhammer on several occasions, is the voice of reason.

  227. This is just as obnoxiuous as anything Reub said and just as foul language, if not more so. I’d rather read most of Reub’s posts. Are you trying to get yourself banned too?

    Mike, I would like that post deleted.

    Done, and you are correct. Personal attacks are not allowed here, be warned THCJ.

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