Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Tuesday, October 15, 2019

Deadspin.com: Dennis Smith Jr. May Have Fultzed His Shooting Form

It’s Deadspin, so feel free not to pay it much mind, but I’m so desperate for Knicks-related content, it’s the best I’ve got.

A Reddit user posted a video of Dennis Smith Jr. working out and his shot looked…different.

Look who came to my school…. from NYKnicks

From the Deadspin write-up, “Here’s Dennis Smith Jr. taking some free throws which bear the troubling artistic influence of Markelle Fultz. The clip comes from a Redditor who claimed to spot the Knicks point guard at school—judging by the banners, it’s the Manhattan private school Avenues—and some credibility is gained from the fact that three different people appear upset that the video is being taken. Can’t blame them.”

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121 comments on “Deadspin.com: Dennis Smith Jr. May Have Fultzed His Shooting Form

  1. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    Responding some posts in the last thread….

    Stefan Bondy indicated that Kyrie Irving hurt his elbow. in practice today and was taken to the hospital. No other word has leaked. Depending on the damage, it could be awful news for the Nets. I broke my elbow when I was young and it has never been the same.

    @218 (Hubert) –

    ….I think we have at least three young pieces in place (Randle, Barrett, Robinson) that I think can be part of a good team in the future.
    ….We have some scratch off tickets in Knox, Trier, Smith, Payton, and Brazdekis that could pay off.
    ….And PICKS! We have surplus of draft picks!

    I love the way you think bro!

    Where I disagree mildly is about the scratch-off tickets. Alan Hahn called Trier an “ideal 6th man” and I agree. Instant offense off the bench. I don’t expect that to change. Here’s a Barzeikis interview by Ian Begley. I love how the kid thinks but I’m betting he goes to the G-league until after the trade deadline. Elfrid is a reallllllly good #2 PG – a starter for most teams. He’ll do a good job of organizing the floor and nobody expects him to be a good shooter. That means he probably gets paired with Ellington or Dotson on the wing.

    Note that I didn’t list either Knox or Ntilikina. They’re in the same boat, which is sinking. If either of them becomes average, it’s a big, big win. They’re the lotto tickets.

  2. Brian Cronin Post author

    Stefan Bondy indicated that Kyrie Irving hurt his elbow.in practice today and was taken to the hospital. No other word has leaked. Depending on the damage, it could be awful news for the Nets. I broke my elbow when I was young and it has never been the same.

    I think you might need to re-read the Kyrie tweet. ;)

  3. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    So Bondy got it wrong. Kyrie took an elbow to his face. He doesn’t need his face to hoop.

  4. Brian Cronin Post author

    As I just joked, in the tweet you linked to before, Bondy said, “Kyrie Irving was hit with an elbow at practice and had to go to the doctor. He was accompanied by coach Kenny Atkinson.” So he never reported Kyrie hurt his elbow.

  5. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    reposting cuz I wasted workday time on this

    do we have a better outlook today than we would have if we had signed Kyrie and Durant?

    Fuck yes. There are three main ways the Nets can go with the Kyvin Durrving era:

    1) Their current role players and young’ns develop like crazy, Kyrie stays healthy, Durant comes back the same explosive sharpshooter he’s been for like 13 seasons, and they are a top-2 powerhouse in the East starting in 2020, while the Sixers lament their pisspoor, short-sighted management over the last couple seasons; the Bucks fail to keep the role-player glut intact and see Giannis superheroing the team to 55 wins and a threepeat of Conference Semis losses; Miami cries itself to sleep as it realizes it’s traded for Chris Paul’s hilarious max and will be paying a 30-something Jimmy Buckets to spray Cristal all over the world’s hottest Latina women on the average weeknight; and people completely forget that the Boston Celtics even exist. Oh, and maybe Mitch wins DPOY and R.J. turns into prime Wade.

    2) They realize it was a giant fucking mistake to sign an aged, injured guy (already on the decline!) to pair next to a malcontented weirdo and blow it all up for a haul of assets as oversized as KD’s risk-laden contract. This seems like career suicide for Sean Marks, even though Joseph Tsai might have this month made himself the smartest owner in American sports, so maybe the case could be made. But probably not.

    3) Most likely to my mind? The Nets struggle in the mid-40 win range and they start mortgaging virtually all of their future assets to make a big splash during trade season. And that maybe gets them up into the 50-win club, but certainly far short of the 57+ you’d expect from a contender.

    #3 is the one that would worry me most if I’m a Nets fan. And since I’m a Knicks “fan,” I can sleep at night knowing that we’re probably not trading the 2023, 2025 and 2027 1RP out of late-window desperation.

  6. Hubert

    thenamestam’s rebuttal from the previous thread is decent, but I think I’m on board with the fuck yes answer.

    My problem, though, is I constantly believe some savior is eventually coming here. If we don’t end up with Giannis or AD, or win a lottery and draft a franchise player, maybe peaking as a 50 win team isn’t the worst thing.

  7. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    This take is legitimately wild to me. I don’t think signing Durant was any kind of slam dunk – THCJ is right that the injury/age combination is legitimately terrifying. It’s a massive roll of the dice on him coming back healthy.

    I’m a bit confused, as you say that it’s a wild take but then point to the biggest issue of the Durant signing — that he may be an albatross on day one of the 2020-21 season.

    It’s also important to remember that if he does come back healthy he would have been by a not insignificant margin the best player to ever suit it up for the Knicks, and that a 100% Durant + Kyrie is a legitimately championship worthy 1-2 punch. Now even… but you’re in the mix.

    2014-15 Durant and 2017-18 Kyrie on the same team would be a top offense on its own. Kevin Durant will not play an NBA game until 2020-21. These are professional athletes, not bottles of Domaine de la Romanee-Conti being kept in a cool cellar. Even if Durant were perfectly healthy, and not returning from a catastrophic injury, it would be a big risk.

    but I’d rather roll the dice now with legitimate championship upside than kick the can down the road two years with no real plan.

    I had to trim your post but I largely agree with the paragraph that this is a milquetoast holding pattern, a C+ offseason at best. However, you say “roll the dice now with legitimate championship upside.” This is to my mind an inaccurate description.

    Rolling the dice in July 2019 means waiting until May 2021 before you find out if your enormous investment pays off. It’s not rolling the dice on the present. It’s rolling the dice today for a payoff 18 months from now with a soon-to-be 32-year-old guy who blew up one of his most important pieces of connective tissue.

    This isn’t LAL pushing the chips in on a healthy LeBron nor PHI paying Horford in 2023 for a championship in 2019. This is much riskier.

  8. bobneptune

    They’re in the same boat, which is sinking.

    C’mon man…. this is a Knicks blog….. The ship be sinkin’!!!

  9. thenamestsam

    THCJ,

    I just think you’re focussing too much on the risk/reward proposition of signing Durant – which I have freely admitted is not great, and not enough on the risk/reward proposition of what we’ve actually done, which while the risk is much lower, is pretty much reward free in my eyes (C+ is extremely generous for me).

    Durant is on a 3+1. But remember, the Knicks have already effectively committed to punting on the first two of those seasons even with the current move set anyway. So there’s not really a lot of meaningful additional risk associated with being in the Durant business over the next two years. The big risk you’re fretting over is basically having 2-years of completely dead KD money instead of the big chunk of space we will have in the Giannis sweepstakes. Two years of potential downside doesn’t seem like that much to me to roll the dice on Durant.

  10. swiftandabundant

    @ 10 – Sorry but I have to disagree with this take.

    First, everyone we brought in this year except Randle we have a team option on for next year. So in theory we can open up a lot of cap space this summer if, say, AD doesn’t resign with The Lakers. Or we have a lot of players with short contracts that can be used in trades (for AD, Beal, whoever). So we aren’t effectively punting 2 seasons but we can if we want.

    Also, if we signed Durant and Kyrie to those maxes, no Randle. Personally, I like that we went with the cheaper, younger, less flashy, less expensive free agent who actually could improve over his contract and is just entering his prime.

  11. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I just think you’re focussing too much on the risk/reward proposition of signing Durant – which I have freely admitted is not great, and not enough on the risk/reward proposition of what we’ve actually done

    I have long argued that the Knicks should stockpile picks and young players, not lead with overpriced veterans, and waiting for the right core to add legitimate stars to, whether by free agency or trade. For the former, you need cap space. For the latter, you need future picks and solid players or salable short-term contracts. Now we are nowhere close to the stage when these one-year deals become trade assets for an over-the-hump superstar, but the Knicks have only succeeded in winning some mediocre future draft picks, like the TBD 1RP from Dallas, whose year is unknown and will be protected top-10 through 2025, after which it becomes a 2025 2RP.

    I would have much preferred that the Knicks found a way to get guys like Carsen Edwards, who looks like a guarantee to be a Patty Mills or Dame Lillard-like player on the next level. (Not saying he’ll be as good as them, but he is clearly an NBA-worthy talent and for some reason, likely height, he slipped to the beginning of the 2nd round.)

    Durant is on a 3+1. But remember, the Knicks have already effectively committed to punting on the first two of those seasons even with the current move set anyway. So there’s not really a lot of meaningful additional risk associated with being in the Durant business over the next two years.

    Continued–

  12. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    So there’s not really a lot of meaningful additional risk associated with being in the Durant business over the next two years.

    If the Durant contract were a two-year deal with a team option, it’d be a completely different story. But it’s not. If Durant does not live up to his contract in 2020-21, there is virtually no way he opts out of that final year, so we might as well call it a 4-year contract. Good luck building a contender around a $44M man who’s 34 and has a bum achilles.

    The Knicks have very little reward from the vets on the roster, with the exception of Randle. But they do not have an injured 30-something commanding $41M AAV over the next four years. “Upside” will not convince me to throw my chips in on a guy who literally cannot walk right now.

  13. Donnie Walsh

    everyone we brought in this year except Randle we have a team option on for next year. So in theory we can open up a lot of cap space this summer if, say, AD doesn’t resign with The Lakers.

    In theory, sure, but the reverse side of dodging a bullet on Durant is the REASON that we dodged the bullet, which is that stars don’t want our money, no matter how much of it we have.

  14. Hubert

    is the REASON that we dodged the bullet, which is that stars don’t want our money, no matter how much of it we have.

    I don’t buy it. Durant really did seem headed here before he ruptured his Achilles and could no longer persuade a 2nd star. Anthony Davis made us (and not Boston) one of two teams he wanted to be traded to.

    I’m not saying we’re going to get AD & Giannis, but we have a respectable core of 4 players in place (like Randle, Mitch, Barrett, hopefully one more top pick), I don’t think it’s going to be hard to get stars to take max money.

    The problem was we had nothing to offer besides money.

  15. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    In theory, sure, but the reverse side of dodging a bullet on Durant is the REASON that we dodged the bullet, which is that stars don’t want our money, no matter how much of it we have.

    The Knicks’ ineptitude runs much deeper than, say, the Sixers’, but you don’t see anyone pointing to 2015-16 and saying, “No one will sign with Philly!” anymore. Hell, the Knicks won 42 games in 2011 and Tyson Chandler was all, “Hey, sure, I’ll join the Knicks after winning a fuckin’ ring.” The Knicks had money, he wanted money.

    Popular sentiment will turn around real fast if they build a low-seed playoff team that isn’t a veterans-first, short-term roster.

  16. DRed

    I’m going to be more skeptical about our player development machine if DSJ has lost the ability to shoot free throws

  17. dtrickey

    If the rhetoric is we shouldn’t put too much weight on good workout videos, then should the same also apply to bad? God camp and pre-season can’t come around quick enough.

  18. Knew Your Nicks

    My latest impressions on requirements to be a serious nba contender:
    1 having 1-3 Big Dogs
    2 High Efficiency on FTs
    3 Effective Team D
    4 Efficiency on 3s
    5 Health & Youth & Athleticism
    6 Depth

    If the ‘Steve Mills plan’ looks like my simplistic list I’d be fine with it.

  19. Donnie Walsh

    Chose to sign large long-term contract with the Knicks in the past 10 years:
    1. Tyson Chandler
    2. Tim Hardaway Jr
    3. Corpse of Joakim Noah
    4. Courtney Lee
    5. Robin Lopez
    6. Uninsurable Amar’e Stoudemire

    Chose NOT to sign large long-term contract with the Knicks in the past 10 years:
    1. LeBron James
    2. Dwayne Wade
    3. Chris Bosh
    4. LaMarcus Aldridge
    5. Greg Monroe(!)
    6. Kevin Durant
    7. LeBron James
    8. Kyrie Irving
    9. Kevin Durant

    We dodged so many bullets!

  20. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    As far as Julius Randle goes, he reminds me a lot of what STAT was as a Knick. Amar’e was a lot less explosive than Julius at the time of their respective arrivals in New York, but the brute finesse power forward role is similar. Of course the comparison isn’t perfect because their eras required different skills, but both guys are this kind of brute finesse type of player at the 4 spot.

    Re the Nets and KD; the Nets already have a pretty good team with Irving (who was twice as good as Russell was for the Nets last year), LeVert, Joe Harris, Jarrett Allen, Dinwiddie, Taurean Prince, and DJ. It’s not a championship team by any stretch of the imagination, but it isn’t hard to imagine a world where LeVert and Jarrett Allen turn into borderline all stars, and Taurean Prince is also a decent bet on a player who might turn the corner under Kenny Atkinson. The Durant contract is more likely to hold them back more than anything, but if he comes back healthy the league is in a lot of trouble.

  21. TheOakmanCometh

    Amar’e was a lot less explosive than Julius at the time of their respective arrivals in New York, but the brute finesse power forward role is similar.

    He was? Randle had 78 dunks last year. Amare had 187 the year before he came to NY.

  22. Donnie Walsh

    he reminds me a lot of what STAT was as a Knick

    Randle has flirted with not losing 50 games once in his life. He’s been the third option, at best, on a terrible team every year he’s played.

    Stoudemire was a 5-time All-NBA player who played on numerous 60 win teams before coming to NY. When he was here he had already played 18,000 minutes in the league, was beaten and beleaguered, and wasn’t very good.

  23. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    The Knicks need more big dog pitbulls I’ve been saying that for years

    Mitch Rob hears you….

  24. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    My perspective on both KP and Durant is that they both are an injury risk. I don’t know how their recovery will impact their game or if they can make the adjustments they need to make. Serious injuries are, well, serious. I don’t care if it’s a Ferrari. If I had to replace the engine or transmission, I become leery.

    The bigger issue I have with Durant and KP is the feeling of rejection. They opted to go elsewhere. It doesn’t matter if they’re not a good investment, it still smarts. And even my saying “we’re better off without them” might be a bit of a reaction to the hurt they inflicted on Knicks fans.

    We haven’t had a healthy player entering their peak years that had a chance to become a star for a long time with the exception of Carmelo Anthony. So pardon me if I’m excited about having a couple of youngsters with star upside in the fold at the same time. Barrett, Randle and Robinson are all in the discussion. I’ll add Dennis Smith Jr to that mix. They are the first building blocks since when? We also have those “scratch-off” tickets: Frank, Knox, Bradzeikis, Trier, Dotson and (I’m hoping) Wooten. If we hit on ONE of them that’s nice. Add the solid pieces that are trade deadline assets: Morris, Peyton, Portis, Ellington, Gibson and eventually Bullock. Not only will this year’s team be watchable, the situation can improve. We could add cap space and maybe add to the 6 #1 picks (hopefully) that we get in the next 4 years.

    So screw KP and KD. This is where we probably should be in the development process.

    When does the season start?

  25. Z-man

    Mitch’s rookie season was quite a bit better than KP’s. He’s not a unicorn but definitely some kind of mythical creature.

  26. ptmilo

    The Knicks need more big dog pitbulls I’ve been saying that for years

    my dog weighs 100 lbs and is named after the greatest knick of all time so move on find a new slant

  27. Early Bird

    Mitch’s rookie season was quite a bit better than KP’s. He’s not a unicorn but definitely some kind of mythical creature.

    The Blockness Monster

  28. Z-man

    my dog weighs 100 lbs and is named after the greatest knick of all time so move on find a new slant

    You have a dog named Melo?!

  29. thenamestsam

    Good luck building a contender around a $44M man who’s 34 and has a bum achilles.

    This is the downside. The upside is “Good luck building a contender around one of the 10 best players of all time in his late prime” which doesn’t sound quite as bad. But my real point, which I still don’t think you’re reckoning with is “Good Luck building a contender in the 2020-2021 or 2021-2022 seasons starting from where the Knicks are right now”.

    The risk associated with having Durant on the books is only a real cost to the extent that we end up doing good stuff with the cap space that not having him provides over the next 4 years. So far we’re 0 for 1, and well on our way to being 0 for 2. We will see what the summer of 2021 holds. I have my suspicions. Your argument is to be patient and I have absolutely no problem with that. I’d rather be patient while paying a ton of money to Kevin Durant than to Bobby Portis, Taj Gibson and Marcus Morris.

  30. Early Bird

    It looks to me like DSJr is working on his shot in the video, slowing it down and breaking it up to work on his form and muscle memory. I don’t think he Fultzed his shot up. I bet his in game shot looks much smoother. The people are upset because the video is stealing their training method.

  31. Hubert

    This is the downside. The upside is “Good luck building a contender around one of the 10 best players of all time in his late prime” which doesn’t sound quite as bad. But my real point, which I still don’t think you’re reckoning with is “Good Luck building a contender in the 2020-2021 or 2021-2022 seasons starting from where the Knicks are right now”.

    I see your point. The question is really “do you believe the Knicks can ever get someone with their space or draft a star in the lottery?”

    If you have Donnie Walsh’s outlook (and it’s fair, I don’t mean to pick on him), you assume nothing good will ever happen here, and yeah we’d be better off with Kyrie and Durant and their 50 win, 2nd round ceiling. That’s better than what we’ve had. But the reality is, like Jowles said, we’re probably going to mortgage more future pieces to complement those guys, and we’ll pay for that window the same way we paid for going all in on Stoudemire and Melo.

    I’m actually a quasi-believer in Scott Perry. I think he’s building something brick by brick. I think if we might even look semi-attractive after this season. If we keep adding bricks, we will eventually get the guy we want, so I’m all for keeping the options open instead of committing to post-injury Durant.

  32. bobneptune

    What I don’t get is the Knicks have one of the best “fundamental form” shooter of all time in Alan Houston 30 yards away and he can’t teach these guys the mechanics of jump shooting? His dad was an NCAA coach and I’m sure taught him.

    Also the unfathomable thing about the entire l’affair KP is his silence on what actually happened with the Knicks. That isn’t very much like internet boy to keep silent about anything. Did the sexual assault allegations against him play some part? He didn’t like Phil and they dumped him. Fiz went to Europe to kiss his ass and he rejected him, too.

    The Durant rumors were so pervasive there had to be something to them. I wonder what the chronology of it all going south actually was. Did Durant really want to come and play with KP?

    Someone is going to write a pretty good book about this sordid episode…..

  33. Hubert

    It’s funny, btw, that we’ve killed a digital forest with words on Frank, but Dennis Smith has inspired so little talk.

    All the flaws are evident. He is also just 21 years old and played only one season in college. It’s not like the data on him is definitive. The range of outcomes for him is wide. It’s not inconceivable that Dennis Smith makes a jump similar to D’Angelo Russell. That would be a potential game changer for this team, and is probably the most interesting thing to watch this season.

  34. Owen

    I was once bitten by a 130 pound pit mastiff named Shaka. That dog would make a great NBA floor spacer. Don’t see it happening for DSJ.

  35. Early Bird

    It’s funny, btw, that we’ve killed a digital forest with words on Frank, but Dennis Smith has inspired so little talk.

    Its because we all agree on Dsjr and Knickerblogger thrives purely off disagreement, the two point guard year, and Mitchell Robinson.

  36. thenamestsam

    I see your point. The question is really “do you believe the Knicks can ever get someone with their space or draft a star in the lottery?”

    If you have Donnie Walsh’s outlook (and it’s fair, I don’t mean to pick on him), you assume nothing good will ever happen here, and yeah we’d be better off with Kyrie and Durant and their 50 win, 2nd round ceiling. That’s better than what we’ve had. But the reality is, like Jowles said, we’re probably going to mortgage more future pieces to complement those guys, and we’ll pay for that window the same way we paid for going all in on Stoudemire and Melo.

    Well I disagree pretty strongly that Kyrie+Durant has a second round ceiling. If (and once again acknowledging that it’s a very large if) Durant comes back healthy, that’s a 1-2 punch that could win you a title. Yeah, you’re going to need luck around the fringes, to get it right with surrounding talent etc., but to cay the ceiling is 2nd round; I just can’t agree with that.

    Further, I guess I feel like the argument that having Durant is bad because it will encourage us to do something dumb ignores that dumb management is a huge risk in the current scenario as well. We’re being patient for now, but you’re sure that we’re going to stay patient when we win under 30 games again and we’re staring at just running it back next year? Management is going to do the right thing if Giannis decides to take his talents elsewhere? I guess I just don’t see bad management decisions as significantly more of a risk with Durant than without him.

  37. thenoblefacehumper

    I am so, so hesitant to derail this perfectly pleasant thread about basketball but I am curious as to what the spin on this Ukraine transcript is from our resident Trumpets.

    I’m sorry in advance :(

  38. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats

    Screw the players, the projections, and the herky jerky wristseses…what about those *alleged* new alternate(?) unis for this season? I’ve seen one pic..has anyone else seen it? I kinda like it..

  39. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    What I don’t get is the Knicks have one of the best “fundamental form” shooter of all time in Alan Houston 30 yards away and he can’t teach these guys the mechanics of jump shooting?

    The answer to that is pretty simple, and I think you’re capable of sussing it out.

  40. Donnie Walsh

    I guess I just don’t see bad management decisions as significantly more of a risk with Durant than without him.

    Yeah, it’s not like management said “let’s not pursue Durant because that could sting us in the long run and it caps our ceiling and we’d need to pour assets into procuring a supporting cast which would damage the long term health of the franchise”.

    Management said “we’ll give you the max”, and Durant said “no thanks.”

    So, yes, bullet dodged, perhaps. But for 30 years the Knicks have used free agency as their preferred method of rebuilding, and that process has to change because the product will always be the same: either you whiff and have to field a team of bad players, or you hit and end up with terrible contracts in their decline phase.

    Very few great players change teams via free agency every offseason. Yet, since the Isiah-era ended, the Knicks have made preserving cap space their number one priority, and it’s been as fruitless as Isiah’s luxury-tax balloon doctrine because it is driven by the false notion that players want to play in NY because of branding, or the big media market, the allure of MSG, etc…

  41. swiftandabundant

    But wasn’t it reported that after Durant got hurt, The Knicks changed their thinking and a lot of people became weary of the idea of signing him? I don’t think Durant scorned the Knicks. I mean, I think if he still came to them and said “look I want to be a Knick” we would have considered it, but from everything I’ve read, once Durant got hurt The Knicks kind of stopped the idea of getting him.

  42. swiftandabundant

    Acknowledging that Durant coming back is a very big if is basically admitting that most likely they area second round team at best. The odds are not in his favor that he’s coming back near his elite level.

  43. Hubert

    If (and once again acknowledging that it’s a very large if) Durant comes back healthy, that’s a 1-2 punch that could win you a title. Yeah, you’re going to need luck around the fringes, to get it right with surrounding talent etc., but to cay the ceiling is 2nd round; I just can’t agree with that.

    Are you talking on the Nets or on the Knicks? Maybe on the Nets that’s a team that can win the East. They have decent pieces in place. But on the Knicks, I don’t see it. Two one-way guys (and even a fully recovered Durant is likely to drop off defensively) plus Mitch plus flotsam and jetsam isn’t a title core. You could pull that off with Kawhi + George or LeBron + Davis, but those guys excel on both ends.

    Further, I guess I feel like the argument that having Durant is bad because it will encourage us to do something dumb ignores that dumb management is a huge risk in the current scenario as well. We’re being patient for now, but you’re sure that we’re going to stay patient when we win under 30 games again and we’re staring at just running it back next year? Management is going to do the right thing if Giannis decides to take his talents elsewhere? I guess I just don’t see bad management decisions as significantly more of a risk with Durant than without him.

    Very solid point.

  44. Hubert

    I am so, so hesitant to derail this perfectly pleasant thread about basketball but I am curious as to what the spin on this Ukraine transcript is from our resident Trumpets.

    I’m sorry in advance :(

    You should be sorry! We’ve been doing so well! No one take this bait.

  45. Hubert

    But wasn’t it reported that after Durant got hurt, The Knicks changed their thinking and a lot of people became weary of the idea of signing him?

    Yes. We never offered him anything and he never said no. He had a deal done with the Nets anyway, before anyone was allowed to talk to him, because tampering.

  46. Donnie Walsh

    He had a deal done with the Nets anyway, before anyone was allowed to talk to him, because tampering.

    But isn’t it assumed that our offer was presented to him, too, because tampering?

  47. alsep73

    This is where I saw the *alleged* new jersey

    I’d need to see a higher-quality photo, and or video of someone wearing it and moving around to be sure how I feel. The lighting there makes the blue look a bit lighter than we’ve traditionally worn, for instance. Glad the use of black is at a minimum, at least.

  48. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    I’m not taking any poli-bait right now. The season’s right around the corner and this is (most of the time) a haven from that crap. I’m OK with some baseball and football mixed in, but if I was in charge, I would set a no-politics policy.

    @38 – I think that DSJr is the big question mark, at least in my mind. I think he has the talent to be eventually be an all-star. He’s young and has been average for his first 2 seasons but that’s his floor. If you compare Russell’s 2nd season (now entering his 5th year) to Smith’s they you can see that they’re nearly identical. This is definitely a big year for Smith. I’m very hopeful.

  49. Hubert

    Smith has the same experience as Russell did before he joined Brooklyn (one year in college, two shaky pro seasons), but is one year older.

    The fact that Russell took a step forward doesn’t mean Smith will. But it’s not like we’re talking about Bargnani in year 6 here. It would not be statistically improbable for Smith to improve this year, just like it wasn’t for Russell.

    He’s the biggest wild card we have, unless Mitchell skips a step. Knox is probably a year away from his potential jumping off point. Frank is probably two years and a team away.

  50. d-mar

    Report: James Dolan called Adam Silver and 8 different times asked for dirt on Mark Cuban.

    Knicks fans have initiated impeachment proceedings.

  51. thenamestsam

    Acknowledging that Durant coming back is a very big if is basically admitting that most likely they area second round team at best. The odds are not in his favor that he’s coming back near his elite level.

    Maybe, but focussing on the most likely outcome isn’t particularly relevant when we’re discussing risk/reward dynamics. We’re talking about a situation with very significant downside, and also, potentially, very high upside. You can’t evaluate it only by asking what’s most likely. As always it’s important to remember that in the NBA reward structures are extremely non-linear.

    Are you talking on the Nets or on the Knicks? Maybe on the Nets that’s a team that can win the East. They have decent pieces in place. But on the Knicks, I don’t see it. Two one-way guys (and even a fully recovered Durant is likely to drop off defensively) plus Mitch plus flotsam and jetsam isn’t a title core. You could pull that off with Kawhi + George or LeBron + Davis, but those guys excel on both ends.

    I was talking about the Knicks. I don’t think healthy Durant+Kyrie makes them title favorites or anything like that, but championship equity? Yeah, I think so. They’d need hit on fringe moves (if Durant came back truly 100% then win-now moves look a lot less foolish), have some kids pop probably, it’s still only a chance but the hardest thing to do in the NBA (in my estimation) is get truly title-quality star players. I’ll take a chance at that (even a risky one) over the pu-pu platter offseason.

  52. JK47

    Remember that time back in 2011 when Barack Obama called up the president of Ukraine and was like “Hey bro, give us some dirt on Tagg Romney or we’re withholding that military aid” and then somebody blew the whistle on it and then all Republicans were like “whatevs, that’s chill”

    Yeah I remember that clear as day

  53. Hubert

    They’d need hit on fringe moves (if Durant came back truly 100% then win-now moves look a lot less foolish), have some kids pop probably, it’s still only a chance but the hardest thing to do in the NBA (in my estimation) is get truly title-quality star players. I’ll take a chance at that (even a risky one) over the pu-pu platter offseason.

    There’s enough low probability ifs in that equation to make me feel the 2nd round is the most likely ceiling.

    There’s probably a greater chance of us getting AD this summer than of all those things breaking our way.

  54. thenamestsam

    There’s enough low probability ifs in that equation to make me feel the 2nd round is the most likely ceiling.

    There’s probably a greater chance of us getting AD this summer than of all those things breaking our way.

    I guess this is the part I just can’t understand. You really think that the best case scenario for a team that has a Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving, and Mitchell core is the 2nd round? That…does not seem right at all to me. If Durant comes back healthy 2nd round exits would be much closer to the worst case scenario from that point in my opinion. Second round in the East is not an extremely high bar.

  55. wetbandit

    Remember that time back in 2011 when Barack Obama called up the president of Ukraine and was like “Hey bro, give us some dirt on Tagg Romney or we’re withholding that military aid” and then somebody blew the whistle on it and then all Republicans were like “whatevs, that’s chill”

    Yeah I remember that clear as day

    Umm, I hate left and right equally (that’s right)- so my 2 cents? You do realize Biden did the same exact fking thing in the same scandal, right? I mean, here you go:

    Remember that time back in 2011 when Vice President Joe Biden called up the president of Ukraine and was like “Hey bro, fire your prosecutor who’s investigating my son or we’re withholding that military aid”

    These are both impeachable offenses, but just like the Russia story, we should wait a bit for the details before going all New York Times AOC all over the place

  56. JK47

    Remember that time back in 2011 when Vice President Joe Biden called up the president of Ukraine and was like “Hey bro, fire your prosecutor who’s investigating my son or we’re withholding that military aid”

    Except for the fact that there’s zero evidence of that, you’re spot on.

    The entire international community wanted that prosecutor removed, and there is no proof that the prosecutor was actively investigating Biden’s son.

    Your logical fallacy is– (tympani roll) — false equivalence!

  57. wetbandit

    There is certainly evidence Hunter Biden was involved in corrupt dealings, whether it’s something that can be proven in court or not- He scored a large executive job with a top energy company with no experience after getting fired from the Naval Reserve for drug use, in a company with already well-established corrupt practices and dealings with the government. Joe Biden was heavily involved in shaping foreign policy in Ukraine, especially in the energy market. Why else would Hunter be there? (If this was Ivanka, you know what you would be thinking) At one point, Hunter and Joe together went to China, and 10 days later Hunter’s company scored a billion dollar deal with a Chinese company. Shokin was investigating Burisma, and Biden asked he be fired or $1B would be withheld. I don’t think it’s provable in court, but damn that’s suspicious.

  58. wetbandit

    BTW, as with Trump, I think unless there’s definitive proof, there is no need for outcry, dismissal, or impeachment. So if there was no definitive proof that Trump colluded with Russia, and there is no definitive proof that Joe Biden used influence to help his son and his son’s company, and there is no definitive proof that Trump threatened withdrawing aide unless Ukraine investigated Biden, then (1) we should DEMAND more evidence and (2) we should hold off on IMPEECH HIM rhetoric. If there is proof of any of this then Trump and Biden should be put out.

  59. JK47

    Yeah, well you can’t really DEMAND more evidence when those motherfuckers just ignore every subpoena and take daily shits on the rule of law. So IMPEECH HIM is kinda the only way.

  60. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    There’s a saying that goes something like this, “If you are sitting at a poker table for awhile and you don’t know who the fish is, you are the fish”.

    We are all sitting at the table with Washington DC politicians, the establishment media, the intelligence community, and miscellaneous highly influential individuals and corporations.

    IF YOU DON’T KNOW WHO THE FISH IS, YOU ARE THE FISH.

    They are all corrupt liars and incompetents that care way more about their careers and personal well being than about the country or your well being. Just stop paying attention. They are full of crap.

  61. JK47

    Well I for one am satisfied that “both sides do it” is the only defense being offered here.

    It’s a good day for me.

  62. DRed

    Hunter Biden sounds like one of those assistant coaches who sucks but bounces from job to job because his Dad was a famous coach everyone liked.

  63. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    I wasn’t a huge fan of the Durant/Irving combo for the Knicks even before the injury. It was hard to argue against it with much conviction, but it just seemed like a pretty short window at a time when we didn’t have many other pieces that were close to ready. It probably make more sense for the Nets, but they gave up some solid role players to make the space. The jury is still out on how good they are going to be. I think if you are a Nets fan you are betting on some more moves over the next 12 months so they can contend following year. At least all signs point to competent management over there.

    Once all the star free agents laughed their asses off at our incompetent management’s strategy, I didn’t have much of a problem with signing a mix of players on short term deals. I simply don’t like most of the players we selected and the prices we paid given some other options. I would have done some different things. But this is part of it. I disagree strongly with this management teams’s philosophy on basketball. I don’t think they know much about how to value players or how to play winning basketball. So I’m rarely going to agree with the players they target or use.

  64. Stratomatic: Sometimes referred to as Satan

    Or we could do the Stratomatic thing and ignore politics in general just as we should ignore statistics because they are a distraction from reality.

    I try my best to divorce myself from people I think are intrinsically evil. After 60 years of observing politics, I know who the enemies are. There’s just not much I can do about it unless we collectively decide to have another actual revolution. Our democracy is a sham and our media is scum.

    Statistics are another matter. I love statistics. I just think all the public single number models that try to capture player ability and value are trash. Reality requires a much deeper understanding and dig into the data along with skilled and experienced observation to know what it all means.

  65. wetbandit

    One thing right-wingers have right is their ‘fake news’ narrative. Vox (like Fox News) is hopelessly biased. I never quote from biased sources. Reuters, BBC, AP, and Bloomberg all note that there is no hard evidence against the Bidens. But also, the Bidens refuse to hand over any documents, so there’s that.

  66. Dink

    If Joe and Hunter need to be sacrificed in order to impeach Trump, I’ll gladly take that deal. Both guys are sundowning and have no business being president. Give me literally anyone else from the dem field.

  67. Donnie Walsh

    Your logical fallacy is– (tympani roll) — false equivalence!

    The absurd thing is that Trump today actually made this equivalency AND concluded that Biden should have been impeached for it!

    Ultimately, this story isn’t about Biden. It is about whether our current president is either too corrupt, too incompetent, or too insane to sit in that office. Hunter Biden and his business acumen has absolutely zero to do with it.

  68. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    One thing right-wingers have right is their ‘fake news’ narrative. Vox (like Fox News) is hopelessly biased.

    Did you see that they linked to about fifty articles from reputable news sources, mostly New York Times, in their summary?

  69. geo

    the ncaa, and their amateur rules, are just so dumb and wildly unfair…

    hopefully, DSJ can steer clear of too much press…

    I’m not sure exactly how the california proposed legislation reads (something to the effect that amateur athletes can be compensated for their likeness – I’m not gonna try to explain much more, cuz I got no idea really what the fuck I’m talking about, and, I don’t really feel like looking it up); but, interested to see how the ncaa will react if it passes…

  70. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    I heard Fran Frashilla on NPR, stumping for the NCAA a couple weeks back. There was the author of a book I haven’t read called Indentured, and then FF over there saying, “You weren’t a coach. You just don’t understand. I was there. I saw these men’s lives transformed by what we had to offer. And yeah, maybe we should compensate the stars at the big schools. But Manhattan College? It wouldn’t work.”

    The head coach of the Manhattan College team makes $400k a year, which is a 99.5th percentile annual salary in the U.S.

  71. geo

    naw dtrickey, we done moved past the donnie the dick talk…

    we’re on to unfair labor laws here in the states…which just so happen to involve our very own mister dennis smith junior…

    the ncaa has alleged he/his family got paid 40k to attend north carolina state…

    there was a big federal investigation in to the shoe companies and their ties to college athletics…

    as more cases make it in to the system, different information is still coming to light…

    the revenue some of these teams/sports/athletes generate is such that a small school can pay near half a million to one of its coaches…

  72. Owen

    Alabama has three AC’s making a million dollars right?

    College sports are ridiculous. The whole thing is dumb and indefensible. Especially the high revenue sports but not just them either.

  73. dtrickey

    we’re on to unfair labor laws here in the states…which just so happen to involve our very own mister dennis smith junior…

    Ha ha I did notice there was a slight shift to basketball related labour laws, so I am happy to retract my statement. The unfair labour laws in the US in relation to the NCAA is a pretty fascinating topic, mostly because a) collegiate sport is not really a thing here (other than university sports tournaments which is basically glorified drinking tours) and b) young athletes pathways here are usually via amateur/semi-pro competitions where athletes get paid some form of wage. To be able to derive the revenue college athletics does from their programs and then not remunerate athletes really does not make an iota of sense in equity.

  74. geo

    technically I guess they’re not actually working and considered “labor”, and, they’re simply eligibility rules put in to place by the ncaa, but, yeah – not being able to take advantage of your own name and likeness without jeopardizing your eligibility to participate is pretty crooked…

    I remember a year or two ago there was this “kicker” for one of the larger florida college football programs…he happened to also be a you tuber and was doing really well from that…

    because he talked about playing football on his show – ncaa let his team know that he could be jeopardizing his amateur status…

    I believe he ended up giving up football…

  75. geo

    young athletes pathways here are usually via amateur/semi-pro competitions where athletes get paid some form of wage.

    I know right, that’s pretty much the system in a lot of countries…

    we got the ncaa here…they’re huge…

  76. KnickfaninNJ

    Marc Stein of ESPN decided to predict the outcome of the 2019-2020 NBA season using computer simulations. He used an NBA 2K expert to simulate this. To his surprise,

    The Knicks and their many power forwards, as mentioned above, somehow made it all the way to the Eastern Conference finals as a No. 5 seed in 2K. They went 43-39 — which is sufficiently inexplicable given that most real-world projections have them finishing with a win total in the 20s — and upset Detroit and Philadelphia before losing to the Nets in six games.

    And the Nets were using Durant in the playoffs in the simulation, assuming he had recovered enough to play

  77. bobneptune

    Marc Stein of ESPN decided to predict the outcome of the 2019-2020 NBA season using computer simulations. He used an NBA 2K expert to simulate this. To his surprise,

    “Garbage in, garbage out?”

  78. Hubert

    Marc Stein of ESPN decided to predict the outcome of the 2019-2020 NBA season using computer simulations. He used an NBA 2K expert to simulate this.

    Nice to see the NY Times is still publishing the shit it finds in a simulated world that has no connection to reality.

  79. Hubert

    PSA: just because I dislike the NY Times doesn’t make me a trump supporter, and hating a newspaper is not a political statement. Thanks. Carry on.

  80. Scorpio Dragon

    As someone that used to play a lot of 2K, I can say that their simulations can be wildly inaccurate.

    Granted they did have Toronto winning a lot of the simulations last year (even accounting for a healthy Golden State), but in general never take an NBA 2K simulated season too seriously.

  81. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    It does indicate that there are potential synergies on this team and a good coach could tease them out, making the whole greater than the sum of the parts.

  82. JK47

    The NYT Opinion section is a pile of hot flaming garbage. At this point they should just consider shutting that thing down for a while it’s so bad.

    A young JK47 went to J-school briefly back in the day, I did a couple of years thinking I’d be a journalist before figuring out that profession was definitely not for me.

  83. rama got that Fizdale Magic

    As some may remember, my personal belief is that the Knicks’ strategy is to sign AD next year – not to wait and go after Giannis. He expressed interest in coming to the Knicks already.

    It occurred to me that the glut of PF may be connected to that plan: AD will get more money in a sign and trade, and if we have a lot of PF to trade, the Lakers may be happy enough to facilitate it.

    That’s my hunch.

  84. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    If the Lakers trade Davis after giving up everything they had save Kuzma, getting some picks and Bobby Portis and Julius Randle (whom they let walk for an $8M one year deal!) in return, they should be relegated to the G League. That would be an astounding failure.. Unprecedented.

  85. cgreene

    This is why I don’t understand how they did that deal without the assurance to get an extension. If we had traded Mitch plus our good picks to NO for him would it not have been with a verbal that he was ready to sign long term immediately?

  86. Hubert

    As some may remember, my personal belief is that the Knicks’ strategy is to sign AD next year – not to wait and go after Giannis. He expressed interest in coming to the Knicks already.

    As the resident believer in and originator of pie-in-the-sky fantasies, I agree that’s their plan. It needs a lot to happen before they can execute it, though: 1) We need to be half decent, and 2) The Lakers need to implode (which I think can happen if LeBron is, in fact, mortal). If those two things happen, then there is a chance.

    I will throw a new wrinkle into it, though:

    If Davis wants to come here, he’s going to pull a Kawhi Leonard and tamper with Giannis. If successful, Giannis will pull a Paul George and quietly inform Milwaukee to get what they can now via trade before he leaves in free agency.

    The Knicks would be able to match the godfather package LAC put together:

    Randle = Gallinari
    Barrett or (if he breaks out) Smith = SGA
    5 first round picks (our 2020, 2022, 2024 and Dallas’ 2021 & 2023) = 5 first round picks

    In the world where God finally smiles on us and all that happens, next year’s lineup could be:

    1 Payton (26 y/o)
    2 Barrett (20)
    3 Giannis (25)
    4 Davis (27)
    5 Robinson (22)

    And while all that may seem crazy, I *still* think there’s more of a chance that happens than there is that Durant comes back healthy enough to lead a bad team to a title.

  87. Hubert

    1 Payton (26 y/o)
    2 Barrett (20)
    3 Giannis (25)
    4 Davis (27)
    5 Robinson (22)

    You could actually maybe even carry Frank in that lineup.

  88. JK47

    I don’t really know why the very best players in the NBA would want to move heaven and earth to play for this sad sack franchise, but, uh, it’s possible I guess? I mean we’re kind of the Detroit Lions of the NBA.

  89. Donnie Walsh

    The Clippers were the saddest sack franchise of my entire life, and they were able to reform their image and become what they are pretty quickly through a scenario like Hubert proposes, so in that regard it’s not completely out of the question. But, yes, it’s hard to see it work out like this. Also, the Knicks are cursed and the Lakers are the opposite of cursed, so that makes this AD likelihood even less.

  90. Hubert

    I hear you. But the Clippers and the Nets just poached 4 of the 10 best players in the NBA. The Clippers. And the Nets. Got players to leave a dynasty, the defending champs, and the most accomplished franchise in the game. I don’t think franchise history is important anymore. You just have to briefly flash some competence and display a solid infrastructure, two things we’ve failed horribly at doing.

  91. Owen

    Yeah, all the nonsense about franchise history or past records meaning something always bothers me. The Clippers are in LA and no longer have a repulsive, racist, skinflint owner. Why wouldn’t people want to go there?

  92. JK47

    The Clippers have been a good, well-run team for a decade now. The last time they were crummy was 2010-2011.

  93. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Steve Ballmer is the polar opposite of Sterling and PG and Kawhi are from LA. It was a stunning turn, but not inexplicable.

    Winning solves all woes. And snatching two of the best wings in the league in the same offseason is a goddamn big W.

  94. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Bev/Lou
    Shamet
    Kawhi
    George
    Harrell

    Here are the 2018-19 TS% for those players:

    .561/.554
    .604 (as a rookie!)
    .606
    .583
    .636

    PIPM percentiles:

    79th/74th
    can’t find Shamet’s percentile but he was a rookie, -1.1 PIPM ain’t bad and he shot extremely well
    87th
    93rd
    81st

    That is an absurd offense on paper. Even if Shamet is a bit of a dud at everything else, he just needs to continue to be a good 3PT specialist and they will have an unguardable system. Having two DPOY candidates and 11 All-Defensive team nods — with every player still within the prime-years window — is also absurd. I would not want to face them with Kawhi and George playing 40+ a night in the playoffs. So many teams lack even one elite wing defender. Now try needing two.

  95. Donnie Walsh

    PG and Kawhi are from LA. It was a stunning turn, but not inexplicable.

    Yeah, there’s this little detail too. Those guys grew up playing in the same SoCal community. AD and Giannis grew up 5,400 miles apart, and neither is from the New York area.

  96. Hubert

    The Clippers have been a good, well-run team for a decade now. The last time they were crummy was 2010-2011.

    In 2011 they were owned by Donald Sterling, coached by Vinny Del Negro, and their GM was Neil Oshey.

    That was not a well run team. But they got Chris Paul. And he opted in.

    Ballmer didn’t turn that team around. Paul did.

    I’m sure Giannis and Davis would do the same here, and I think it’s safe to say they know that.

  97. ptmilo

    G league is using the “shoot only 1 free throw for 2 (or 3) pts” rule this year. this would take some getting used to in the final minute, but i think it’s an improvement.

  98. Hubert

    We don’t need much to be an attractive destination to stars. We’ve just had two decades worth of management that has been too inept to clear a very, very low hurdle.

    For all of Perry and Mills’ faults, they seem capable of figuring that out.

  99. d-mar

    A young JK47 went to J-school briefly back in the day, I did a couple of years thinking I’d be a journalist before figuring out that profession was definitely not for me.

    Sorry JK, a lot of journalists are heroes to me (not opinion writers, investigative journalists) They’re all that stand between us and a megalomaniacs like Trump destroying our country, or on a more local level, preventing some corrupt city councilman from taking kickbacks.

    And say what you will about the failing New York Times, many of their well researched investigative pieces have resulted in congressional investigations and/or criminals being sent to jail.

  100. ptmilo

    oh thx didn’t see that. not sure if that’s good or bad. the oft slow and anticlimactic pace of the end game ft parade is one thing that could most do with some improvement, tho i’m not sure cutting fts to 1 really solves that problem anyway.

  101. JK47

    And say what you will about the failing New York Times, many of their well researched investigative pieces have resulted in congressional investigations and/or criminals being sent to jail.

    I mean, sure. Journalism wasn’t for me but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect journalists.

    The NYT opinion section is a dumpster fire though, and the Times has had some serious ethical lapses lately. Like the one just today where they have basically outed the whistleblower as a CIA agent. That doesn’t seem to be serving the public good, but it does serve the NYT getting a lot of clicks.

    I suppose somebody else might have published that information anyway, but they’re the ones that DID publish it. Doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence for future whistleblowers.

  102. geo

    a rule like make one and then shoot 1 or 2 more would seem to encourage a lot more fouling during the game…

  103. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Like the one just today where they have basically outed the whistleblower as a CIA agent.

    Fucking incredible that they did that. “He was assigned to the White House, but has since returned to the CIA,” like Trump’s minions aren’t pouring over records right now.

  104. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    G league is using the “shoot only 1 free throw for 2 (or 3) pts” rule this year. this would take some getting used to in the final minute, but i think it’s an improvement.

    Give me a first-to-fifteen, win-by-two rule in OT, please. Every close game is a fucking hackfest and it’s stupid and I hate it.

  105. thenamestsam

    Give me a first-to-fifteen, win-by-two rule in OT, please. Every close game is a fucking hackfest and it’s stupid and I hate it.

    Zach Lowe had a piece once suggesting a similiar rule for the end of regulation as well. Something like once the game clock passes a certain point you turn off the clock, establish a winning score as the currently leading team’s score+10 (or whatever number, I don’t remember exactly what he said but it’s easy enough to base it on the average scoring in that period) and then play to that number. This would actually eliminate OT altogether along with the hacking nonsense. It probably has some weird kinks and edge-case strategies that I’m not thinking of now, but man would I be in favor of dramatically shaking up how the end of close NBA games shakes out. It really is a black mark on an otherwise fantastic entertainment product.

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