2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks @ Pistons

The push for the #10 seed continues as the Knicks pursue their fourth win in a row against the Detroit Pistons, who recently gave away Andre Drummond for a half-eaten ham sandwich!

Let’s go? Knicks!

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133 thoughts to “2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks @ Pistons”

  1. Looks like starting lineup will have RJ back in it along with Bullock to go with Payton, Randle and Gibson. Would prefer Mitch to start obviously so he could get more minutes but I actually kinda like this starting 5. Will be interesting to see the backup PG minutes with DJ and Frank.

  2. Win or Lose it doesn’t matter to me.
    I wanna see young players getting better.
    Can we lose 82 games but see our youngsters improve significantly.
    Give me that.

  3. geo:
    can’t imagine there’s anyone out there not wishing for a 4 game win streak…

    I mentioned this in the previous thread, there are actually a ton of Knick fans who are pretty vocal online that the Knicks can make a run at the 8th seed this season. It’s batshit insane. Although I do admit the schedule is very soft looking the rest of the season, they’ll probably finish as Brian noted in this thread “battling” for the 10th seed which is beyond stupid but inevitable.

  4. Now if youngsters improvement means to win 33games and grab the 8th seed I’d take it instead of getting the number1 pick but see all the young ones being garbage again and again and again and……

  5. A bullshit offensive foul, and a foul in transition where no one picked up the ball handler. Ridiculous.

  6. Someone tell miller we have a guy on the bench who can guard henson…oh wait…hes got two fouls…save him for crunch time

  7. Mitch comes in with 2 fouls, plays great, and gets benched after 3 minutes. I’m done. Meanwhile Randle is having one of the worst games imaginable and is still being fed minutes.

  8. DSJr needs to figure out something to do when they give him the open mid range jump shot, taking it is not the answer.

    RJ makes a lot of really bad decisions.

  9. I’ve got to say, aside from Robinson, the current lineup must be one of the worst in the NBA. Portis/Knox/Ellington/Dennis. Even that mini run looked awful, thank god for the Mitchell Defense System.

  10. I’ve got to say, aside from Robinson, the current lineup must be one of the worst in the NBA. Portis/Knox/Ellington/Dennis. Even that mini run looked awful, thank god for the Mitchell Defense System.

    …And then they put RJ in for Mitch…

  11. There’s no reason Mitch shouldn’t be in the game right now. I’m losing my mind. Are they trying to boost Portis’s value so he can get a buyout deal?

  12. Mitch and Randle destroying the Pistons down the stretch on the boards, doing their best Ewing and Oakley impression lol.

  13. I know, I shouldn’t be happy about this…
    But I am enjoying the tough D. Yes these are beatable teams, but the D has been solid, the boards astounding, and Miller is making smart in game adjustments

  14. And we were losing all the close games. Now they seem to be playing smarter in the end.
    I almost expected Mitch to foul on that made 3, but he played it smartly

  15. Just moved ahead of Hornets in the standings Only 5 behind the Magic for 8th
    2.5 games & 3 teams from 9th

    We’re making a fake playoff run

  16. Resetting possessions instead of rushing bad shots and taking advantage of mismatches in the paint were the differences tonight. Miller is impressing.

  17. At least we dont have to worry about these wins saving Mills’ job since he was thankfully fired already.

  18. It’s just so funny how predictable the Knicks are. As the other bad teams start to try to lose after the trade deadline, the Knicks, well, you know.

  19. It’d be one thing if they were just so good that they can’t help but blow away the other teams, but it’s barely beating other shitty teams that aren’t trying.

  20. Miller gave youngsters their chance tonight.
    They didn’t seem to grab it.
    Mercenaries kept us in the game.
    He had no other choice than to ride the hot mercenaries to try get the Win.
    Miller ain’t tanking.

  21. hello my fellow knickerblogger posters – this is reality calling out to you…

    – our team, who barely knew each others first names at the beginning of the season, our starting to learn how to play together, and, laugh at this – close out games

    – elf playing at this level is an impact player out on the court…probably our team’s best player right now…not quite sure what’s going on with all these steals he’s got lately, but, elf can help win games, at least against mediocre competition

    – kevin knox is having a rough first two years in the NBA…him and DSJ nearly lost the game

    – why in the world would we cut wayne, let him play

    – please tell me again why mike miller shouldn’t be our coach next year…seriously – with our track record reference bringing in any human being in to the organization, would you really want to take your chance with replacing miller…hell no

  22. Didn’t watch but I can tell we will be talking about this game when we draft 11th this year. Can’t blame anyone for enjoying some wins. I was walking next to a guy today who was just cursing at the top of his lungs on the phone with his buddy about how stupid the Lakers were for letting the Clippers get Morris, “That guy can get you 20 so easily bro.” It was hilarious.

    It appears Dallas has a solid team even without Luka and KP. New Orleans got a win with Ingram and Zion too.

  23. putting aside the fact we beat arguably the worst starting five in the league…and struggled to do that…in the fizzzzdale era…we would have lost by 30…so there is progress!

  24. This is maybe the Knicksiest season ever.

    Start with getting the #3 pick in a draft with two superstars at the top, followed by the KD dream crashing down, followed by signing a bunch of mediocre veterans In some attempt to chase a #8 seed, followed by the team playing horribly to start the season, followed by the typical pointless late season run that results in finishing like 10th in the conference and getting a shitty pick the following year. Oh, and then getting teased by Masai Uijiri rumors and then hiring CAA to run the team instead.

    There’s much more Knicksiness to come, folks! The next several years are going to be endless repetitions of Jack Tripper walking into doors and Inspector Clouseau repeatedly trying and failing to say the words “I need a room.”

  25. putting aside the fact we beat arguably the worst starting five in the league…and struggled to do that…in the fizzzzdale era…we would have lost by 30…so there is progress!

    Miller legitimately is the type of coach who can wring extra wins out of teams. If this was, like, a 42-win team, I could trust him to get the team to 46 instead. There’s value there. It just isn’t the type of thing they should be looking for at this precise moment. But yeah, he’s a lot better than Fizdale.

  26. nothing in life is free…we’re rid of fiz, but, it’s costing us losses…we’re rid of mills, but, instead of just having a roster full of mercs, we now have ’em in the front office too…

  27. What is the upside to keeping either Portis or Ellington on the roster? Neither player will be back here next season. They can’t trade either one of them. Why are they still here? The Knicks could go through the G-League and pick whatever two players not on an NBA roster they’d like to give a look see and give them non-guaranteed contracts for next year and then play them, Iggy and Wooten for the rest of the season and see if there’s anything there. Why not just do that? Make the rest of the season actually have a point.

  28. The perception might be that these types of wins will quiet the ” sell the team” chants for most of the fan base. It also seems that they are doing Ellington a solid by letting him market himself prior to a buyout.

  29. “What is the upside to keeping either Portis or Ellington on the roster? Neither player will be back here next season. They can’t trade either one of them. Why are they still here? The Knicks could go through the G-League and pick whatever two players not on an NBA roster they’d like to give a look see and give them non-guaranteed contracts for next year and then play them, Iggy and Wooten for the rest of the season and see if there’s anything there. Why not just do that? Make the rest of the season actually have a point.”

    There actually IS a point to keep a few expensive dead weight players on the books. The trade market opens again after the Finals through July first when all one year contracts end. If they have a trade of a high salaried player for 3 or four picks and say Barrett, they need matching salaries.

    That doesn’t mean it is wise to play Ellington over Frank, though in the big picture.

  30. I feel like Mike Miller has more wins in his Knick career than Fizdale. Did Fizdale ever have a 4 game winning streak as head coach?

    Also, I love Florida. It’s 60 degrees warmer than my home here right now.

  31. “At least we dont have to worry about these wins saving Mills’ job since he was thankfully fired already.”

    lmao

    What about Miller?

    There’s still a lot of season to go, but if he keeps turning this team around and the players like and respond to him, I see no reason we should make a change. I remember when we first hired him for the G League club. People were happy about the Knicks hiring someone with some experience in the Spurs organization. He was a COY down there. Maybe he’s just a damn good coach that didn’t get his big break until later in life.

  32. Now there’s talk of potentially buying Trier out????

    He’s not my favorite player because I prefer defense and ball movement over shot creation and his tendency to stop the ball, but he can score. To me it always seemed like he had the potential to become a terrific 6th man eventually. Unless there are personal/behavioral issues in the locker room or off the court that we don’t know about, I think we are making a mistake if we just buy him out.

  33. bidiong the not so great:
    I feel like Mike Miller has more wins in his Knick career than Fizdale. Did Fizdale ever have a 4 game winning streak as head coach?

    Antarctica was 30 degrees warmer that where I was on Friday
    Also, I love Florida. It’s 60 degrees warmer than my home here right now.

  34. bidiong the not so great: I feel like Mike Miller has more wins in his Knick career than Fizdale. Did Fizdale ever have a 4 game winning streak as head coach?

    Fiz had 21 wins as Knicks head coach in 104 games.

    Millers has 13 in 31.

    He’ll have more than Fiz by season’s end.

    But seriously, we need to talk about RJ. He’s now below Knox’s rookie TS%.

  35. “But seriously, we need to talk about RJ. He’s now below Knox’s rookie TS%.”

    So far he can’t shoot at all. And unlike Frank who is generally passive and smart enough to weigh his open shot vs. passing and allowing someone else to shoot, RJ is aggressive and may hurt us more at the “team level” by taking more shots and being aggressive.

    It’s way too early to push the panic button because we knew coming in that shooting was going to be “the issue” and he’s still a baby, but it would be nice to see some progress.

  36. RJ’s shooting is terrible, but even his “magical” passing skills are nowhere to be seen. All he can really do is rebound well for a guard and draw more contact than the average rookie. He’s looking like a major flop for a #3 pick. At least with a trade down we would’ve had two shots at not picking busts.

  37. What is the upside to keeping either Portis or Ellington on the roster? Neither player will be back here next season. They can’t trade either one of them. Why are they still here?

    Ellington, Portis, Bullock, Payton, and Gibson are all on some version of a 2-year deal. Theoretically, any of them could be back, or included in a post-season trade. Not saying that it is smart to play them or keep them, just that I’m not certain that they wont be back.

  38. What about Miller?

    There’s still a lot of season to go, but if he keeps turning this team around and the players like and respond to him, I see no reason we should make a change. I remember when we first hired him for the G League club. People were happy about the Knicks hiring someone with some experience in the Spurs organization. He was a COY down there. Maybe he’s just a damn good coach that didn’t get his big break until later in life.

    I trust Miller.
    He knows how to coach. Perfect NY guy

    Gee, I said this a while ago and some moron characterized me as a Mark Berman-level shill and then suggested that I only felt that way because Miller is white…

  39. Ellington has actually spoken about being bought out. It’s not entirely out of the question they are doing him a favor by giving him some extra minutes so he can find a good new job. Giving Ellington some extra minutes is borderline meaningless basketball wise, but it may buy some good will with players and his agent. I think he’ll be gone shortly.

  40. “Gee, I said this a while ago and some moron characterized me as a Mark Berman-level shill and then suggested that I only felt that way because Miller is white…”

    The internet is fun isn’t it? lmao

  41. RJ is looking terrible, but I don’t want write off anyone his age based on their rookie season. His only NBA level skill seems to be drawing fouls, but he’s bad at free throws.

    To my surprise, Knox is starting to look like a three and D guy. He’s not doing either well at the moment, but he’s clearly shown he can be good at shooting threes and he’s showing signs of blocking shots and working hard on defense. If he can do that, which is a big if, that’s actually not a bad result for where he was drafted.

  42. “RJ’s shooting is terrible, but even his “magical” passing skills are nowhere to be seen. All he can really do is rebound well for a guard and draw more contact than the average rookie. He’s looking like a major flop for a #3 pick. At least with a trade down we would’ve had two shots at not picking busts.”

    A counter to that would be that spacing has been a major issue for this team and he’s not the only player that does his best work inside whose TS% is down, Randle is having the same problem.

    I suspect on a team built with a lot of spacing (call it the NY Mavs), both Randle and RJ (and maybe even Payton) would be more efficient because they could get to the rim one on one more often and finish better or get fouled. There would be less help defense and a less clogged paint impacting them negatively. That’s not going to make any of their outside shots better, but it might add enough to their TS% that we’d be less concerned about what someone like RJ DOES bring to the table at this stage.

    I still think his play making is a plus, but that’s party role. You have to have the ball in your hands tasked with creating shots for others to get a lot of assists.

    I think we are going to see the same thing with Frank if he plays off the ball more. That gives him fewer opportunities to get assists or even create a little pull up mid range shot like he has this year at times. How can you get assists if you are standing in the corner basically frozen out of the offense most of the time unless you are wide open and it’s later in the clock?

  43. Franks been put at the two sometimes recently, and it seems just in line with what you are saying. He kind of seems to vanish in offense then.

  44. Steve Stout does say at least twice in the article that the Knicks need to win more to get the fans back.

  45. like…dolan had to hire that guy to tell him that firing mills would increase the “brand” value ……that’s funny and scary…….at least it does say he is a lifelong knick fan….

  46. DRed is also a lifelong Knicks fan. Can Steve Stoute make pizza?

    Am I picking parasite or 1917 For best picture in my Oscar pool?

  47. There actually IS a point to keep a few expensive dead weight players on the books. The trade market opens again after the Finals through July first when all one year contracts end. If they have a trade of a high salaried player for 3 or four picks and say Barrett, they need matching salaries.

    this is not true. they could only trade them at their $1m guarantees.

  48. That seems surprising to me. But maybe they would have to pick up their options to trade them at the higher value.

  49. Everything I read about Stoute and the CAA guys just confirms my worst fears about this franchise, which is that everyone is simply interested in business decisions. Everything about them seems like PR bullshit, put a overall better product on the court, make the Knicks cool again, bring stars by showing them how cool the Knicks is. It’s the same BS we’ve heard over and over again, how Phil would clean up the team’s image and attract big guys because of his name, how Perry, Mills and Fizdale were well liked in NBA circles and would attract guys, and now how Rose, Wes and Stoute are going to change the team’s image and attract guys.

    I haven’t read literally anything about a real basketball management plan, nothing that really matters. These guys haven’t even taken over and I’m already depressed to be honest.

  50. alsep73:
    Sigh. The first glowing “Steve Stoute is here to save the Knicks” profile:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/09/sports/basketball/the-knicks-are-trying-something-new-a-rebrand.html#click=https://t.co/unWJ3MLncf

    This is a terrifying article.

    Somehow what Dolan took away from Durant & Kyrie opting for Brooklyn isn’t that he needs to copy their method of hiring top basketball folks and patiently rebuilding the correct way until you have an attractive infrastructure.

    No, Dolan’s big takeaway is that he needs to hire the guy who designed their logo and changed the team color to black.

  51. That seems surprising to me. But maybe they would have to pick up their options to trade them at the higher value.

    i am not actually sure what the rule is under the new cba, but this is the article claiming that you can no longer use the current year salary to trade a player between season end and june 30. but it might be wrong, because it sounds strange to me as i think about it.

    https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/03/how-non-guaranteed-salaries-will-affect-trades-in-new-cba.html

    Complicating matters further is that a team can’t simply circumvent the new rules by trading a player before a league year ends on June 30, then having his new team waive him when his non-guaranteed salary goes into effect on July 1. After the end of the regular season, a player’s outgoing salary for trade purposes is the lesser of his current-year salary and the guaranteed portion of his salary for the following season.

  52. Z-man, for the record, I challenged your assertion that Mike Miller was a developmental guru who would be great for our kids. Weird to see you taking a victory lap on that one.

    And I didn’t say you only like him bc he’s white. I said your assumption that Mike Miller works harder than David Fizdale was based on a unconscious prejudice that projects values onto people who look a certain way. But I’m sure I was wrong on that, too, and you’ve been tracking Miller’s hours at the gym on a spreadsheet and comparing them to your records of Fizadale’s time spent at the gym.

    Personally, I think a lot of people are wishcasting Mike Miller bc he reminds them of Jeff Van Gundy.

    As for my opinion on Miller, I’ve always felt he’d be a perfectly adequate coach who will look great compared to Fizdale. I’m not going to get carried away by close wins against tanking teams and change that opinion. He’s made some good adjustments and benefited from having a much better lineup. I don’t ever expect him to reach the height Z-Man predicted as the coach of an NBA title contender in the near future, but we’ll see.

  53. “Am I picking parasite or 1917 For best picture in my Oscar pool?”

    I think they give it to 1917 and give Best Director to Bong Joon Ho as a consolation prize.

    And Brad Pitt will win Best Supporting Actor for doing a spot on Brad Pitt impersonation

  54. D-mar –

    That is what I have written in. 1917 feels like the kind of very good but not great film that wins these things.

  55. At the end of the day, It doesn’t really matter what the background of the people in charge suggests when they don’t have an actual track record. A successful team building plan that involves shrewd asset and salary cap management can be executed by anyone, regardless of background. It basically comes down to being opportunistic, continually winning trades, and being an excellent evaluator of talent and fit, especially re: drafting players and finding gems in the bargain bin.

    Maybe Rose will be different than the guys from the past. I’m not gonna get too worked up about it until I have some data…probably until draft time. I’m expecting things to be quiet until then. If he does something between now and then like firing Miller and replacing hime with Mark Jackson, then I’ll join the chorus.

  56. 1917 seems more likely to win, but I think Parasite (and maybe even OUATIH) are more deserving. Joker is, well, a joke compared to the rest of the nominees.

  57. I don’t ever expect him to reach the height Z-Man predicted as the coach of an NBA title contender in the near future, but we’ll see.

    Did I really say that? Or are you just doing what you do all the time, which is making shit up to suit your too often asinine narrative? Like you did the other day about how we should have gotten more for Morris than was given up for Covington, and stuck with it even when a number of posters pointed out the obvious differences in the two situations?

    I don’t have a problem with you or anyone else disagreeing with anything I post, especially when it comes to something like a prediction about the trajectory of a coach or draft pick. My problem is that you were initially an asshole (or a dipshit, lol) about it, and then became more of one as things progressed. You know what you did and what you meant at the time, so don’t try to sugar-coat it now. You set the standard, so why get so prickly when I treat you accordingly?

  58. so, now that I’ve had a chance to read through the caa and stoute articles, sadly my take is exactly the same as bruno’s – somehow we’re going to shine up msg, and, let the garden do the rest of the work in regards to team building…

    sure why not, just cuz it hasn’t worked over the last couple of decades – maybe it suddenly will now…

    jimmy d is simply one of the greatest harbingers of fan doom ever…

    pretty clear picture that we will be scratching and crawling our way to about the 10th worst record in the league…

    who knows, maybe luck and some decent scouting will finally be on our side come draft time…not counting on it, but, it could happen…

  59. on a bright note – today is sunday… since i was a kid it’s always been my favorite day of the week…

    what’s not to love about a day of rest…and, hopefully we’ll hit five in a row today for the first time in forever…

  60. I was shocked at how much I liked Little Women. 1917 was pretty epic, my vote for best director. Parasite was an incredible screenplay, but I enjoyed the other two more. I find Tarantino’s work gratuitous, so OAATIH didn’t do it for me. Haven’t seen the others.

  61. Ptmilo, the article you linked is pretty convincing. I guess the owners felt trading contracts that didn’t have a guarantee was a loophole. But the article doesn’t say if you can somehow guarantee the contract and then trade it. Of course then the receiving team is stuck with say, Portis salary for the next season, but it might work as a match that way.

  62. Hubert
    December 4, 2019 at 10:10 pm

    Z-Man: Miller seems like the kind of coach that we have been drooling for…a non-retread, non-system, non-celebrity, non-ex-player who is best suited to developing and inspiring young players to go after it.

    This is complete conjecture. You have literally no idea if that’s what he’s best suited for. You don’t know if he runs a modern offense. You don’t even know if he’ll play the kids. For all you know, he might think “this is my chsnce, gotta play the vets to get wins.”

    ^^ I don’t think you’re on the right side of that argument. And there’s no chance you’re dragging me into the mud again with personal insults, so stick to the points.

  63. this is not true. they could only trade them at their $1m guarantees

    Correct. Which is why there is no reason to keep them on the roster.

  64. a non-retread, non-system, non-celebrity, non-ex-player who is best suited to developing and inspiring young players to go after it.

    Well, he’s clearly not a retread or a celebrity and seems to have been promoted because of demonstrated capability at a lower level. To me It’s not clear if he is non-system type coach because I’m not good enough at watching basketball to tell that. But I can see that he does call out plays from the sideline so he can’t be totally a system coach. So on there attributes it’s hard to argue with Z-man. Can he develop and inspire young players? Who knows? Well see if they improve over the rest of the season.

  65. NJ The real problem I have is with the unnecessarily condescending and insinuating tone of the response. I was just giving an optimistic opinion about how he seemed like a breath of fresh air compared to the last few coaching hires (relative novices who alienated key players like Fizdale, protoges like Fisher and Rambis, rigid system guys like D’Antoni, unimaginative retread ex-players like Woodson and Hornacek) Here’s a guy who toiled away in obscurity for 30 year at nothing colleges and the g-league until finally getting a shot in the NBA at 55 years old.

    Of course he’s going to play the vets and try to win, what would any coach in his situation do? The question is, can he do that and develop the kids at the same time? I think he’s done pretty well so far.

  66. So Tankathon has us taking Halliburton at the #6 spot now. He seems like a pretty good fit with RJ, but would that relegate Frank to the bench or maybe even part of the forward rotation? And would that be the final nail for DSJ?
    I also like the idea of grabbing Toppin to put next to Mitch, but we need better playmakers more, I suppose.

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