The State of the Knicks Salary Cap for the 2016 Free Agent Season

I did one of these last week but then the Knicks traded everyone, so now let’s take a new look at the Knicks’ cap situation heading into free agency at midnight, July 1st. Enjoy!

Teams are technically not allowed to sign deals until July 7th, but can negotiate and basically agree to deals starting July 1st (teams are allowed to agree in principle with their own free agents before then). The reason for this moratorium is because the league isn’t actually sure about the salary cap figures until July 7th, as they perform an audit during the week (why they can’t do the audit right now is beyond me). Teams can sign their own draft picks in the moratorium period, plus players can be signed to minimum contracts (plus players can accept qualifying offers). These deals rarely take place during the moratorium, but they are possible. In any event, this is a long way of telling you all that we don’t actually know for absolute certainty what the cap will be. We will know for sure on July 7th. That said, the league gives the teams an idea of what they think the cap will be, and it tends to be pretty darn accurate, so let’s go with the figure that the league told teams recently – $94 million.

The maximum initial salary that a free agent can sign for is based on how many years of service they have in the league, 1-6 years, 7-9 years and 10 years plus. They are 25% of the cap, 30% of the cap and 35% of the cap, respectively. Oddly enough, though, the league uses different math to figure out these percentages, so they tend to be less than actual percentages of the cap.

Players with 1-6 years experience can sign an initial contract of $22.2 million
Players with 7-9 years experience can sign an initial contract of $26.6 million
Players with 10 years plus experience can sign an initial contract of $31 million.

Okay, with that out of the way, where do the Knicks currently stand?

The Knicks currently have six players under guaranteed contracts for next season:

Carmelo Anthony – $24,559,380
Derrick Rose – $21,323,252
Kristaps Porzingis – $4,317,720
Kyle O’Quinn – $3,918,750
Justin Holiday – $1,015,696
Marshall Plumlee – $543,471

They also have Ron Baker on a non-guaranteed contract worth $532,471. There’s not an absolute certainty that the Knicks will keep Baker on the roster, but since they just signed him, it appears likely.

The Knicks apparently are close to signing Willy Hernangomez to a 4-year/$4.5 million contract, so that $1.1 million would come out of the cap space, as well. I figure we should probably add him, right?

The Knicks have a bunch of free agents on their team, but most of them will be renounced, so they do not matter. Two of them, however, are unlikely to be renounced. Therefore, we have to deal with their cap holds.

Langston Galloway is a restricted free agent. His cap hold is his qualifying offer, which is $2,725,003. It is higher than a typical qualifying offer for a player like Galloway because the Knicks allowed him to play enough minutes to qualify for an increased qualifying offer given to players who are major parts of a team rotation.

Lance Thomas is an unrestricted free agent. His cap hold is based on his current salary. It is 130% of what he made last year. So his cap hold is $2,127,895.

The Knicks might still re-sign some of their other free agents like Sasha Vujacic, but since Vujacic will likely not make more than the league minimum (and thus, the Knicks can exceed the cap to re-sign him), they will still likely renounce him.

So the six guaranteed contracts, the one non-guaranteed contract, Willy Hernangomez plus the two cap holds gives us ten players and a total of: $62,174,638.

However, you also need to take into account the fact that the Knicks have to have cap holds for their remaining two roster spots (each team has to have a minimum of twelve roster spots. The Knicks can, and will, add three players later on to get to fifteen spots, but that’s not going to matter for this exercise, so ignore that). Each cap hold is the minimum, so $543,471 per slot. Two spots, so it would be $1,086,942. However, for every free agent you sign, you fill in one of those slots. So for the purposes of this exercise, let’s assume Phil Jackson signs two free agents, so we don’t have to factor in anything extra for cap holds (basically, Plumlee and Baker took the places of the cap holds that the Knicks were going to have to take into account no matter what, so Jackson figured that they might as well sign actual players if the Knicks were going to be stuck with those cap holds anyways). So it would remain $62,174,638.

Okay, so working under the presumption that the Knicks will sign two free agents, the Knicks would have: $31,825,362 in cap room to spend on two free agents.

If they wanted to sign three free agents, they would still have the same amount of money available, as they don’t have to concern themselves with cap holds beyond that.

As noted, free agents with 7-9 years of experience, like Nicolas Batum, have starting salaries beginning at $26.6 million. So if the Knicks were to sign Batum, they would have $5,225,362 to spend on another free agent. As you might have noticed, that is not a lot of money.

The Knicks could free up another $3,918,750 by trading Kyle O’Quinn for nothing. Then you would have to deduct $543,471 from that freed up salary (so basically $3.3 million), though, as that would be another open roster spot that you’d need to get a cap hold for.

If you got rid of O’Quinn for no return, you’d have roughly $8.8 million to spend on the second free agent (but no back-up power forward).

On top of all that other salary, the Knicks would also have their “room” exception, which becomes available to teams that are under the salary cap but then spend enough to get to the cap. The league allows them to go over the cap via a “room” exception of $2.898 million, that they can spend on anyone they want (they can split up if they’d like). The Knicks spent it on Kevin Seraphim last year. They used it on J.R. Smith years ago, as well.

Back to Galloway and Thomas. Okay, let’s presume that the Knicks have now used up all of their $31,825,362 on two free agents. They now can go over the cap to re-sign Galloway and Thomas. In the case of Galloway, they can give him a contract equal to the average salary, which I have no idea what it will precisely be this year. Let’s say it’s $5.8 million (it should be around there). So the Knicks can sign him up until that amount without using their other cap space. However, since he is a special kind of restricted free agent (a free agent following his second year in the league), no other team can sign him to a contract for MORE than $5.8 million in the first year of the deal. However, teams can backload contracts to them, just like the Omer Asik and Jeremy Lin “poison pill” contracts, so teams can offer Galloway up to $22.2 million a year for up to four years (they won’t, but bear with me here) and the contract would work like this:

Year 1: $5.8 million
Year 2: $5.8 million
Year 3: $38.6 million
Year 4: $38.6 million

Obviously, reduce those later two years based on how much he’s offered (if he’s offered $7 million a year for four years, it’d be $5.8 million, $5.8 million, $8.2 million and $8.2 million – that same deal over three years would be $5.8 million, $5.8 million, $9.4 million). But it shows how quickly the numbers can get nuts on the back end.

As for Lance Thomas, the Knicks are allowed to exceed the cap to give him a contract of roughly $5.8 million (the average salary – I don’t know precisely what that will be yet). If someone else offers more than that, well, the Knicks might be out of luck. Hopefully Thomas will repay the Knicks’ loyalty for giving him a guaranteed contract with a raise just because they liked him. And then if he signs a two-year deal for $12.6 million, he can have the second year be a player option and then he would have full Bird Rights next year, and the Knicks could re-sign him to a larger deal. Or maybe no one will offer him more than $5.8 million and we’re worrying for no reason.

If the Knicks were to sign, say, Joakim Noah for $18 million, then they would have $13,825,362 to offer a second free agent (or they could split that same money between two other free agents, like $5 million for one guy and $8.8 million for the other guy).

Okay, to recap, the Knicks currently have roughly $31,825,362 million to spend on two or more free agents, plus an extra roughly $3 million to spend on a single free agent (or two, but at that money, it’s tough to see you getting two guys for that little cash). It’s not going to be easy to add big time talent to this team, but it CAN be done!

NOTE: If Hernangomez doesn’t sign, then that’s another $556,529 to spend (his salary less his cap hold). So not really much of a difference.

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409 thoughts to “The State of the Knicks Salary Cap for the 2016 Free Agent Season”

  1. Thomas Robinson for the room exception.

    Also, Damien Iglis was cut from the Bucks, he had an awful rookie year but he only played 156 minutes last year so his numbers might not be an accurate reflection of his skills.

  2. Brian – you are doing a great job on these. There was a reason why I always waited until July 1 to do mine. At least you were able to re-use the bulk of what you did last week.

    I have no idea how much the Knicks are going to give Noah, the length of the contract or how many years will be guaranteed. If they end up guaranteeing him more than three years/$45 million (the remainder of the RoLo contract), I will hate that trade even more than I already do.

  3. If we sign Noah to anything more than a 1 + 1, we’ve essentially swapped out a healthy Lopez for a damaged Noah. I’m holding my breath on this deal….

  4. At least you were able to re-use the bulk of what you did last week.

    The shocking thing is that the numbers barely even changed! That’s how close the Rose deal came to even money this year. I think the Knicks gained, like, $200,000 of cap room in the deal!

  5. Yeah, the length of the contract really will be the key. Let’s hope for a 1+1!

  6. Why hope for 1+1? Is the assumption that Noah won’t take a 1 year deal? If he’s hurt this year, isn’t he going to exercise that player option for 2017-18 when he is 32?

  7. I don’t think Noah goes for a 1+1, this is his time to cash in. He knows that he can get at least 3 years @$18 mil somewhere else (at least, I think he knows it, would y’all agree? As his agent, anything less than that would make me want to at least shop around.) I don’t think Phil has shown the balls or negotiating skills to have any confidence that we would get Noah to take much less than he could get elsewhere, either in years or salary.

    So the question for me is: Is he worth 3 years at $18 million? Given his recent play and injury issues, probably not. But to be fair, none of his injuries seem to be of the “career threatening/altering” type. He rebounded well last year, and blocked enough shots to suggest that he wasn’t a “shell” of himself. He had a very good (except for TS%) stretch in December before the shoulder issue.

    I think its fair to say that at anything above, say, 85% of his peak performance in 2013, he’s a bargain that price, and his ceiling is higher than RoLo so definitely worth the extra 4 mill per.

    In short, not a slam dunk by any stretch, but a 50-50 gamble in a win-now situation, which we are clearly in right now. And by win-now, I mean make the playoffs to become better players in the much more interesting 2017 FA market.

  8. Brian,
    Thanks.
    Just in time for us to debate Noah’s value!

    By the way, Rose+Melo+KP+Noah=Pretty good … if they stay healthy
    Projected bench so far: Galloway, Holiday, O’q, WillyH, Plumlee, Baker
    Guesses: Early, Sasha

    Needs: Starting SG, backup PG, SF, C

  9. The rumor is..Noah for 18 mil a year? Almost cringe worthy considering his recent injury history. Healthy, he’s much better than Lopez, but shouldn’t his age and recent health be considered when making an offer? 18 is kinda steep.

  10. Let’s hope Phil at worst does 2 years + team option on Noah. He won’t but maybe it will be a 1+1 and cap flexibility next year.

  11. Just in time for us to debate Noah’s value!

    Whatever we conclude he’s worth, I’m sure Phil will offer three times that. And the last year, of course, will be a player option.

  12. With the cap rising even more next year, I think a lot of FAs are going to opt for 1-year contracts but I would rather have him sign for multiple years at 18M because next year that 18M will be like 14M because of the cap. It actually behooves teams to sign 2-year deals.

    Does that make sense?

  13. I think I would still start by chasing Batum and then Basemore.

    If you could have Batum for $18M / year for 4 years or Noah for $18M / year for 3 years, what do u do?

    If we sign Noah, he’s our C, Zinger is back to PF and Melo back to SF. Unless we go with a rotation with 2 backups (say Thomas and O’Quinn) so when Noah sits, Zinger is your 5 and Melo your 4. but, that means more minutes for Melo and Noah.

    Plus, if we sign Willy, he’s a C. Him and Noah become your C combo, and Zinger never plays the 5.

  14. Assuming Noah is a done deal, Phil has succeeded in putting together exactly the kind of roster that I did not want him to put together: a win-now type roster that is not even close to good enough to compete for a championship.

  15. In all likelihood Batum will be making well over $20M– I think he’s expected to get max offers.

    Our C rotation next year projects to be Noah, Zinger, and Willy H. O’Quinn can play sometimes but on a good team he’s probably not a rotation player. If I were coaching, I’d give ~20 minutes to Noah, ~20 minutes to KP, and ~8 to Willy H. Of course signing a 20mpg center to an $18M contract is pretty questionable, but I’d like to see KP get 20mpg at that spot. From watching Hernangomez’s DraftExpress videos and scouting reports it seems like he can play and will end up being worthy of a spot in the rotation. He and KP could also play together interchangeably at the 4/5.

  16. This is going to be a true dumpster fire of a season, especially if Noah gets hurt. He is confusing my desire to bet the under, though. I didn’t realize that he was still so nasty on the offensive boards.

  17. I really hope the $18m figure is BS, maybe just posturing by his agents. Noah is over 30, declining, and injury prone. If they do sign him at around that #, then Phil really is going for a Hail Mary for this year. Even if the deal were to be for just 1 year, that is a lot to commit to him at this stage of his career.

    The Knicks desperately need a couple of wings who can shoot and defend. Maybe they consider resigning LT to be one of those and only need 1 more (a starter). OK.

    Please, not Noah at $18m.

  18. I don’t believe any of the rumors if they weren’t reported by Howard Beck or Adrian Wojnarowski.

  19. @20
    Amen! Beck and Wojo are the only ones worth considering. I read Herring’s article this morning, and I don’t think he even mentioned the $18m rumor.

    As I said earlier, maybe that’s just Noah’s agency floating that # as a negotiating ploy.

  20. I’mean curious, why does Ron Baker make slightly less than the minimum salary?

  21. Eric Gordon has to be the other guard. It just makes too much sense. Might as well put every single egg into the “let’s hope this guy doesn’t get injured as usual” basket.

    A Derrick Rose-Eric Gordon backcourt has the added advantage of not being able to guard anybody whatsoever.

  22. A Derrick Rose-Eric Gordon backcourt has the added advantage of not being able to guard anybody whatsoever.

    I like that no perimeter defense whatsoever is now our thing.

    At least Gordon can shoot. I guess. You know, until he gets hurt.

    I can sort of talk myself into Noah for a year but I’m really hoping these negotiations fall apart.

  23. I really hope the $18m figure is BS, maybe just posturing by his agents.

    Have you seen his awards history? Multiple All-Defense selections, former 1st-team All-NBA, DPOY, the anchor of a 62-win team.

    Brand recognition fades slow in the NBA. People still think Joe Johnson is a valuable player because of the shit he did for Atlanta nearly 10 years ago. Joakim Noah will need to have both legs amputated before NBA decision makers stop throwing money at him.

  24. Since we have close to $32M, I’d give Bazemore $16.5M AAV and Noah $15M on a one and one where he can cash in next summer. If Joakim Noah stays healthy we have a shot to win 45. If Noah stays healthy and we sign Bazemore who then gives us that 15, 6, and 3 per 36 as a SG at the same efficiency, we have a shot at 48 wins. If KP explodes and his line looks like 18 pts, 11 reb, & 2.5 blk per 36 on a .575+ TS%, we have a shot at 52 wins. If Rose plays around league average, then we will win the division and be in the conference finals.

    If we sign Noah and Lee, we’ll max out at 48 wins even if everyone stays healthy, Porzingis takes a big step forward and Rose plays league average ball. I know a lot of you guys like Lee, but he’s 30 and the very definition of average. Bazemore is more like the business class version of the private flight Klay Thompson.

    It would also be nice if we could pull a trade for Danny Green and sign Noah for $15-16M AAV. Then we could have anywhere from $6-8M to offer a guy like Joe Johnson or something. Btw, if we’re looking to add old guards, Joe Johnson makes way more sense than Crawford since, you know, Joe can still play.

  25. If Rose plays around league average, then we will win the division and be in the conference finals.

    hahahahahah this was a 27-win team last year c’mon man

  26. I meant if Noah stays healthy, Porzingis takes a big step forward, Bazemore plays the same he did last year at the 3 but at the 2 for us, and Rose plays league average then we will be in the conference finals.

    And Joe Johnson gave Miami close to 800 regular season minutes with a TS% of .603 and an eFG% of .588. The guy can still play, Jowles.

  27. Okay, so we’re in agreement that there is virtually no way that all of that will happen.

    And Johnson was horrible for the Nets last year over a sample 2.5 times larger. Not going to exclude that from my evaluation of him.

  28. Johnson was worse in the playoffs, but have Miami another 500 minutes of decent ball with 12 pts, 5 reb, and 2.5 ast per 36 on a .504 TS and a .492 eFG%. Those numbers aren’t great by any means, but it beats the hell out of what Jamal Crawford would give us.

  29. I don’t understand why the max contracts go up when the cap rises, but the minimum contracts don’t. That seems like something Bernie Sanders would campaign against.

  30. F@CK — any more than 1 year at 18mm to Noah has a significant risk of being catastrophic to fielding even a competitive team over the life of that contract, let alone a contending team.

  31. First of all, the Knicks are not going to be able to afford both Noah and Bazemore, so fugheddaboutit.

    Second, you can do a Panglossian “if everything goes right we might be good” argument for just about every single team in professional sports. IF Noah stays healthy and IF Porzingis takes a big step forward and IF Bazemore also signs and doesn’t decline and IF Rose plays league average and IF none of those guys gets injured well then that’s not just good luck that’s divine intervention. Some of those “ifs” are less than 50/50 bets. Things tend to go wrong, especially when you’re building a core of aging and injury prone players.

    This is a fool’s gold team Phil is putting together.

  32. You shouldn’t, but there should be an asterisk put next to his name. Nets fans said Joe wasn’t motivated in Brooklyn at all. They were pretty upset when Joe Johnson went to Miami and was balling out. I guess the guy doesn’t like playing for dumpster fire dead end teams like the Nets.

  33. Eric Gordon really would be awesome. He is the Derrick Rose of shooting guards: used to be good back in 2011-2012 when he was able to drawn fouls. Now, he’s cobbled together just enough games to make someone want to pay him. Make it happen, Phil!

  34. Maybe, but that’s not the kind of thing that’s going to make me want the dude on the team.

    You know what’s crazy? He’s been in the league since 2001-2002.

  35. Well, if we get Joe Johnson, there will at least be a little intrigue at the end of the game as to whether he or Melo gets to force up the last shot after dribbling for 15 seconds.

  36. How is a 27 year old Kent Bazemore going to decline when he is in the prime of his career again? Let’s all take some time to think about that one.

    And let me clarify. I firmly believe this team as currently constructed is a 25 win team. Rose sucks. Melo doesn’t move the needle either way. Porzingis also isn’t a needle mover but I think it’s fair to say there is a 95% chance he improves significantly from rotation player to good NBA starter. We don’t have Noah yet, but he would be the best player on the roster by a wide margin. His injuries make him a guy who gives us 4 wins, so now we’re at 29 wins. And then Courtney Lee, the king of average basketball players who is supposed to be the 5th starter, probably gives us another 3 or 4. So bam. If the team projected is the one we end up with, then we’ll win 35 games max.

  37. I think you guys don’t quite understand how to build a basketball team. The important criteria to weigh when trading for players and making offers to free agents is this:

    1) were they a high draft pick once, preferably #1 or #2?

    2) have they ever scored 50 points in a basketball game before?

    3) did they grow up in or near New York City?

    That’s it. Nothing else matters. So we should all feel really good about our offseason of Rose, Noah, and Crawford.

  38. If the Knicks can’t get KD picking up Kanter is a much better option than signing Noah for 18m$.

  39. Confession: I come here for the rampant optimism.

    Anything short of signing the Western conference all-star team would trashed by you all. Sheesh. What do you want? Phil couldn’t satisfy this board if he …. wait, he just can’t satisfy this board. It’s a lost cause.

    Back to reality.
    Melo+KP+DRose+Noah+(pick a shooting guard) >>>>>> Melo+KP+AA+Rolo+Calderon.

    End of story. Maybe this team will be watchable this season.

  40. Nah. Eric Gordon is a better, more injury prone version of Afflalo. He has better stats but hasn’t played more than 66 games since his rookie season. Easy pass, but he’s been better than Afflalo.

  41. Cap doesn’t rise near as much next year. 27% jump from last to this year. 13% jump this to next year. Not that much more than built in 4.5-7.5% raises. Plus, you have to expect with 2-3 years notice, the jump is more priced in to current contacts, and with the cap falling in 2018, teams will be more cautious.

  42. Kanter is an easy pass too because he sucks on defense, but you’d be hard pressed to find another center as good as he is on the offensive side of the ball.

  43. Actually I don’t know if I could just pass on Kanter if he’s coming for free or if we could get an asset along with him. He’s like super Jonas Valanciunas.

  44. What other options are at C?Jefferson?Howard?Horford?None of those will came here(Horford) or have any significant impact(the first two).Maybe Whiteside but he will command the max (thats 22M for him) so it will leave no options at SG.

  45. Nah. Eric Gordon is a better, more injury prone version of Afflalo. He has better stats but hasn’t played more than 66 games since his rookie season. Easy pass, but he’s been better than Afflalo.

    Afflalo has a better WS, WP, BPM, VORP.

    eFG% and TS% are the same.

    Gordon has a better PER.

    Both are terrible on defense.

  46. I have to agree that Kanter at $17M is better than pretty much anybody not named Hassan Whiteside. He blows defensively, but there isn’t a player in the league who can stop that guy.

  47. And let me clarify. I firmly believe this team as currently constructed is a 25 win team

    I agree. ‘cuz we only have 5 guys.

  48. If KD resigns with Thunder ,they are looking at unloading Kanter for nothing to try bring Horford.

  49. What other options are at C?

    Kristaps Porzingis, Kyle O’Quinn and Guillermo Hernangomez.

  50. Jones had a terrible year but he used to be a good player and is only 24.

    Phil should call him.

  51. I’m genuinely curious about what Galloway and Thomas fetch. My guess is that both would get something like 4/50, we end up matching the former and ditching the latter.

    The market is going to be really crazy. Noah at anything more than 3 years feels like an abomination.

    After that I’d mostly like to user our cap space to 1) fill out our roster with NBA players and 2) maybe take a chance on a 1-year contract for someone at the 2

    Note that none of this adds up to ‘long-term-plan’

  52. Jones had a terrible year but he used to be a good player and is only 24.

    Phil should call him.

    Agreed, this is the type of risk we should be taking

  53. You know what’s funny? The Knicks like f’n with me lol. Damn near lifelong Georgetown Hoya fan, but we traded for Melo and I had 2 root for him because he’s the most talented player we’ve had in a very long time and he’s a Knick. Now? Joakim Noah gets under my skin much like Reggie Miller did, and he’s most likely gonna be a Knick. The irony! Ha!

  54. If I hear another “used to be good” about any player the Knicks are going to sign, my fucking head is going to explode.

  55. If I’m Phil Jackson I’m calling Sam Presti like “what’s good.”

    Kanter is the type of player we should be going after. He’s 24 years old and one of the best offensive basketball players in the NBA.

  56. Kanter and Porzingis can be an offensive juggernaut for the next 5 years at least.

  57. Do you guys think Phil could get Noah for 1 year, $20mm plus a player option for $20mm in year two in case he breaks down and never plays? Or do you think he’ll go straight to a 3 year, $75mm deal with a full NTC?

  58. Do you guys think we could get Noah for 1 year, $20mm plus a player option for $20 million in year two in case he breaks down and never plays? Or do you think we’ll pay more?

    @66 The reported amount (probably leaked by his agent) was $18/yr. No word on length but that means they don’t expect more.

    And everyone, let’s face it, until otherwise told, Noah is in the fold. Live it. Love it.

  59. i would gladly take jones over noah a million times over… he’s younger.. he’s cheaper… he’s had some strange injuries which i don’t think would be termed long term serious… and he’s a perfect fit in our offense if we plan to space the floor with shooters…

  60. I’m not mad about taking a flier on Noah.

    I’m worried about how bad the contract is going to be.

    As an aside, I’m not sure why we only talk about Lance Thomas as a guy to sign with Bird rights. I think he’s worth more than the $5.5mm we’re hoping to get him on. In fact, I think I’d rather have Thomas at $7.5mm than Bazemore at $15mm.

  61. If Beck and Woj didn’t talk about it, then I think that the rumors are driven completely from the agents’ side and that’s what they want for their client. I do not think the Knicks are gonna sign Noah for that money. He’ll get it, but probably not from the Knicks.

  62. I can’t even tell if Kanter is good tbh

  63. And let me clarify. I firmly believe this team as currently constructed is a 25 win team

    I agree. ‘cuz we only have 5 guys.

    Yeah, but if there names were all Kawhi Leonard or Kenneth Faried, we’re talking a 75 win team.

  64. Now that Bargnani is looking for work in Bora Bora, Kanter is probably the worst defensive center in the game. No way I want him.

  65. Joaquim Noah and Derek Rose gonna be studes this year LET ME TELL U

  66. Yeah, but if there names were all Kawhi Leonard or Kenneth Faried, we’re talking a 75 win team.

    Serious question, d-mar:

    Has Carmelo Anthony ever had a season as good as Kawhi’s 2015-16?

    And follow-up question, did I call Kawhi a future superstar in 2012?

  67. what if Noah’s $18M / year is like 15 / 18 / 21, and that leaves us almost $17M to throw at basemore?

  68. Serious question, d-mar:

    Has Carmelo Anthony ever had a season as good as Kawhi’s 2015-16?

    And follow-up question, did I call Kawhi a future superstar in 2012?

    When did I ever compare Leonard to Melo?

    Yes, you were correct about Leonard in 2012, a laurel and hardy handshake to you my friend, well done!

  69. If James Harden were a free agent would you offer him a max contract?

    He’d be better than anyone on the roster at getting the Knicks to the 2nd round of the playoffs, but I doubt he’ll ever make it much further as the #1 option on a team. Even the “defensive liability” Steph Curry is pretty damn good at defense.

  70. Can we all unanimously agree that if Phil gives a 4/72 contract or more to Joakim Noah that he’s a fucking idiot? Certainly that is a consensus we can all reach, no?

  71. “And follow-up question, did I call Kawhi a future superstar in 2012?”
    Was that before or after you proclaimed Jordan Hill to be “awesome at basketball?” Still waiting for that to happen…

  72. There are four types of players that are bad at defense:

    1. Slow players without the physical skills to stay in front of their man (Kevin Love, David Lee, Andrea Bargnani, late career Artis Gilmore, late career Magic Johnson). If a player is slow but strong (Mark Jackson, early career Artis Gilmore, early career Magic Johnson), he can be a passable defensive player;
    2. Physically gifted players with no defensive concept (Amar’e is the epitome, David Lee probably fits in this category also);
    3. Young players who pick up cheap fouls (virtually every first and second year player);
    4. Physically gifted players who just don’t give effort on defense (Harden, Dominique, Elvin Hayes, George Gervin, Pete Maravich)

    When James Harden actually tries on defense (stays mentally focused, plays on a string, does not ball watch), he has the physical skills and mental understanding of defense to be decent. Steph Curry became a decent defensive player simply by putting out more effort on the defensive end.

  73. If James Harden were a free agent would you offer him a max contract?

    James Harden will be a free agent next year, but since we’re adamant on blowing all of our cap space this year, it’s a non-starter

  74. The dude who, just 2 years ago, averaged 16.7 and 12.8 per 36 on .579 TS% with a WS48 of .141 and a WP48 of .199? At $3.5M salary?

    That’s really the “bust” you’re going to point to? You can do better than that. Point to my true scrubs like Will Barton. That dude couldn’t even start more than 1 game this year! And Mudiay started 66! He couldn’t even start over the worst starter in the league!

    (If one out of every three players I wanted to draft/sign turned out to be good values, I’d be one of the best GMs in the league.)

  75. I don’t see Noah signing for less than 4 years if the Knicks (or someone else) are willing to offer it. He won’t get a contract like this again

  76. Can we all unanimously agree that if Phil gives a 4/72 contract or more to Joakim Noah that he’s a fucking idiot? Certainly that is a consensus we can all reach, no?

    You overlook the fact — the fact — that there are people on this board and elsewhere who think that if a GM offers that much money to a player, it’s because the player is actually worth that much. Because expertise, experience, knowledge, ringz.

  77. C’mon, Jowles. You love this. You won’t be able to root for the Knicks until Melo is gone, which is at least half of the board. The more the Knicks can do to embarrass themselves with Melo under contract, the better.

  78. What about 4 year/$77,000,000? Because that’s the total for a 4 year contract starting at $18,000,000 with 4.5% raises :)

  79. “You overlook the fact — the fact — that there are people on this board and elsewhere who think that if a GM offers that much money to a player, it’s because the player is actually worth that much. Because expertise, experience, knowledge, ringz.”

    Reductio ad absurdum, your specialty.

  80. Right, this coming from the dude who actually blindly appealed to Jackson’s authority. You never answered my question about Carmelo’s no-trade clause.

    Do you simply appeal to Jackson’s authority w/r/t his decision-making, or can you explain it?

    Explain the no-trade clause. Explain why Jackson offered it and why it was worth offering. As I see it, it’s locked you into making this blog the locus for your rambling sophistry, so please count that among the “cons” to the no-trade clause.

  81. I didn’t get a chance to, Jowles. Let’s remember, you answered my question with a question.

    Yes, a NTC to any player is stupid. If Jackson was simply trying to ensure that Melo gave that small discount, it’s stupid. And it was incredibly stupid of Melo, with his hundreds of millions, to ask for another max when he’s trying to win a ring.

    Do I think the NTC will have a major effect if or when Melo were to get traded? Probably not unless it was purely a salary dump at the end of his contract.

    We’ve been over the arguments about the nature of the market and overpaying quite a few times on this board. To reduce it to what you did was so cheap.

  82. Obviously, that’s purely from a basketball perspective. Clearly there are/were other factors involved.

  83. Can we all unanimously agree that if Phil gives a 4/72 contract or more to Joakim Noah that he’s a fucking idiot? Certainly that is a consensus we can all reach, no?

    YES, I think we can all agree to this. Anyone, Bueller? Bueller?

  84. Oddly, si.com is recommending that the Knicks sign Maurice Harkless. Hmm. Is he even unrestricted? Athletic, yes. However, an awful shooter. Maybe as a possible value signing?

  85. Thank you. Was wondering if there was something I’d missed.

  86. My point in asking about wanting James Harden is that Enes Kanter is about as good as Harden on a per minute basis and by virtually every advanced stat out there. Toronto found a way to win 55 with Valanciunas in the middle, and that guy is not a good defender at all. If I had to rank the centers plus Kanter, it would be:

    1) Whiteside at max money
    2) Biyombo at whatever he signs for
    3) Kanter on his current deal
    4) Mahimni at whatever he signs for
    4) Dwight on a one year prove it deal
    5) Joakim Noah at $18M one a one and one
    6) Horford at the max

    Kanter is really good, and in time he can start at the 4 next to KP. It’s easier to hide a 4 than a 5 admittedly. Kanter would be the best big on our team barring KP’s ascension to superstardom.

  87. It will be interesting to know what Carmelo has told KD. Maybe that he can bring Wade now?And any PG he wants next year?

  88. I would take 24-year old Enes Kanter for 3/51 over 31-year old Joakim Noah for 4/70 in a heartbeat, warts and all

  89. Ya’ll know I’m getting one of those JR Smith t-shirts, right? LOL..sorry..had to say it.

  90. I did not like the Rose trade, but I understand the upside of signing a 27 year old former MVP to see if he can fully recover from his injuries.

    Noah is not going to recover from whatever he got last two seasons. He is an scrappy player that has lost his mobility and cant make a layup. His TS % is even worse than rose!

    The only possible explanation (if Phil gives him a really short contract) is that Phil is really trying to tank, and to misguide Dolan to think it was an accident, or bad luck with injuries, etc.

  91. Can we all unanimously agree that if Phil gives a 4/72 contract or more to Joakim Noah that he’s a fucking idiot? Certainly that is a consensus we can all reach, no?

    @85 – No, I disagree. It would probably make his year 2/3/4 salaries bargains (if he continues to play at a high level). Nobody knows the future levels (we don’t even know for sure the 2016 cap) but it is projected to be going to $94M this year. It was $70M last year (apx 25% increase). Next year it projects to around $110M (I’ve seen a lot of different numbers) which is a smaller, but still significant increase. The projected cap slows after that but the point is that crazy high salaries today are bargains tomorrow.

  92. If Joakim Noah is able to stay healthy for the next 4 years then of course that’s a bargain. It is just very unlikely for a 31 year old center with injury issues to stay healthy through age 35

  93. Not to be pedantic, but the increases were 34% and 17%. And it’s projected to fall the following year. They’re not just going to keep increasing forever. This is how bubbles are made

  94. It will be interesting to know what Carmelo has told KD.

    Carmelo told him that the Knicks would give him a No Trade Clause.

  95. @111 – You are correct. The projected cap for 2017-18 is $107M and for 2018-19 is $102M. The $102M is still a 10% increase over this upcoming season. So $18M today means $16M in 2018-19.

    @110 – You can say the same about any player but, from what I read, Noah’s shoulder injury is not going to hamper him going forward.

  96. I see the lesser posters are arguing over who is closest to being as right all the time as I am. Pity.

  97. @114,

    You’re asking the wrong question. The question you should be asking is if orthopedic surgeons wrote what he read.

  98. FWIW, in a new NYpost article Berman says the $18M figure for Noah may be inflated–let’s hope.

    The same article quoted Hornacek saying health is an important concern when evaluating a player. So hopefully they’re taking all that into consideration and will offer Noah a smart deal. We should find out tomorrow. I wish I had to use the word “hope” less in this post.

  99. “(If one out of every three players I wanted to draft/sign turned out to be good values, I’d be one of the best GMs in the league.)”
    This is probably true. The problem is that the two out of three who turned out to be misses would probably get you fired. I know that I got fired from my hypothetical GM job a couple years ago by supporting the Bargnani trade — which was the second hypothetical GM job that I lost. The first was when I drafted Emeka Okafor over Dwight Howard. By the way, this is also probably the first time that you have hinted at acknowledgement that you aren’t right 100% of the time. This is real progress.

  100. The funny thing is that the Knicks probably have a better chance to reach the ECF than they did when they reached the 2nd round in 13.

    But aww man Hate, Hate, Hate

    And if Phil constructs the contracts correctly they can build at the same time smh

  101. We don’t have a player as good as Tyson Chanlder anymore, so until we fill that void, we won’t do as well as the 2013 Knicks did. Tyson kept our defense from being bottom five and he was the P&R dive man needed for the offense we ran (which was #3 in the league).

  102. Are you an orthopaedic surgeon?

    No, and neither are you … if I read your moniker correctly ;)

    I have read that he’s 100% healthy. It was a dislocated shoulder. Given enough time, those sort of injuries heal. There’s never a guarantee about anyone’s health but Rose’s knees, which will take a lot of pounding than Noah’s shoulder (unless he start running on his hands).

  103. ESPN’s Rumor Central says that the Dubs might be shopping Bogut to make a run at Durant. If Phil could absorb him into the cap, does anybody think that would be a good move? Better than Noah? They tendered Festus and would likely go after Noah on a small 1+1 deal that he’d probably take to play for that team. Plus they’ll likely be bringing Speights back as well. I’d take Bogut. He’s great defensively, can pass, and has legit low post game- GS just hasn’t used it.

  104. We don’t have a player as good as Tyson Chanlder anymore

    Did you not see Porzingis defensively last year? Plus Noah?

  105. What I’d like to know is why Noah couldn’t score before he fucked up his shoulder.

  106. What I’d like to know is why Noah couldn’t score before he fucked up his shoulder.

    Like in the previous season, 2013-2014, when he was supposedly healthy but put up a .445 eFG% and a .482 TS%, making him a center who scores with the efficiency of Tony Wroten. I’m sure there’s a reasonable explanation for that.

    It’s all right though, we’ll get efficient scoring from our other guys like Derrick Rose and Carmelo Anthony.

  107. Noah and Porzingis are far more versatile offensive players relative to chandler. The two of them together are at least the equivalent defensively. I would argue that Noah shot a lot of long 2s which affected his %. If we can remove that part of his game there would be great improvement

  108. Joakim Noah was a big part of the Bulls triangle offense. They didn’t run very many P&Rs for Noah from what I remember so he got his buckets with jumpers and crazy drives to the rim. Not everybody is as lucky as DeAndre Jordan to be playing with somebody who spoon feeds you the NBA’s best percentage baskets every night.

  109. The Knicks are meeting with Evan Turner too, because you just can never have enough players with an eFG% in the .450 range.

  110. Jarrett Jack was waived by the Nets. Anyone think he’d be a good low-cost backup?

  111. turner and noah would both be bad shooters but the upshot is that our entire lineup would consist of decent passers… the ball would definitely move a lot better… i don’t think our offense would be that good though…

  112. You permabears in here are sick!

    Is this harumpherblogger.net?

    Really, reub?

    I’m the guy who came up with the phrase, “Now is a great time to be a Knicks fan.” I think that 90% of the posters here would love to be wrong in their prognostications of woe for the team. The other 10% are hoping for a total tank job to get a shot at the #1 overall pick next year.

    When the Knicks resigned Carmelo Anthony, I was in favor of a five year deal with a discounted second year. When the “discount” turned out to be a pittance (which meant that the Knicks had nowhere near the $$$ to make a run at Marc Gasol), I was disappointed. Nonetheless, I rooted for the Knicks with all of my heart in 2014-15 and 2015-16. When the 2015-16 Knicks were at .500 after 40 games and Kristaps Porzingis looked like the ROY, I once again proclaimed that “this is a good time to be a Knick fan.” Then, I watched the bottom fall out of yet another season.

    So, I fundamentally reject the argument that this Board is a bunch of “harumph”ers. We are, however, not credulous fanboys. If you want to participate in that, I can think of many other sites that will provide it.

  113. I think what everyone is missing here is this: Yes, it’s a feat or famine build, but if it’s a famine, we still win, with the cap rise, and Rose’s contract coming off the books, and Westbrook available, and a most likely high pick THAT WE KEEP.

    I see the impending Noah signing as a mentorship for Porzingis, seeing as Noah and ‘Zingis have similar builds, Noah can show him to maximize his defensive capabilities before he takes over for Noah at center. Think of Noah as a player/coach for 18 mil/year. This also includes the fact that yes, Noah will likely be injured. Means he can still mentor KP while he’s on the shelf. This is why I actually LIKE this signing, should it happen. (Also means the Knicks finally get one of their picks back :P)

    Now for Lee/Gordon…Lee can defend, at least, so he’s a decent 3nD (not great, decent), and Gordon can score, if he’s healthy. I think they go for Gordon on this continued “feast or famine” lineup. I also think those two contracts will be rather short in term for this reason. If Gordon and Noah do well, but Rose doesn’t, then it might give us a chance at Westbrook next season. If it’s a total flop, then as I said before, we got a high pick to build around GodZingis with.

    Either way, even if we lose, we win. That’s the first time anyone can say that in a while.

  114. Jarrett Jack was waived by the Nets. Anyone think he’d be a good low-cost backup?

    Yes, I am certain that Jarrett Jack and his family think that he’d be a good low-cost backup. He is also an incredibly ball-dominant, dribble-penetration, jack-up-22′-jumpers-with-:08-on-the-shotclock PG.

  115. Yes, I am certain that Jarrett Jack and his family think that he’d be a good low-cost backup. He is also an incredibly ball-dominant, dribble-penetration, jack-up-22?-jumpers-with-:08-on-the-shotclock PG.

    In other words, he’s 2nd half of ’15 Derrick Rose with a slightly better J?

  116. Yes, I am certain that Jarrett Jack and his family think that he’d be a good low-cost backup. He is also an incredibly ball-dominant, dribble-penetration, jack-up-22?-jumpers-with-:08-on-the-shotclock PG.

    In other words, he’s 2nd half of ’15 Derrick Rose with a slightly better J?

    Sigh, yes.

  117. Yeah, I think it was time to cut bait on Cle, I like him but he just didn’t develop.

  118. Qualifying offer to Galloway, Early UFA

    I read that as Galloway being an early unrestricted free agent and I had no idea what that meant. :)

  119. Yeah, I think it was time to cut bait on Cle, I like him but he just didn’t develop.

    There’s no way he should be guaranteed a spot (I didn’t even consider including him on the roster for cap room purposes), but I think they should give him a shot at winning a roster spot back during the summer.

  120. Yeah, I think it was time to cut bait on Cle, I like him but he just didn’t develop.

    I think that was mostly procedural. Early is on the summer league team (although he came up lame yesterday with a strained hammy). I think he’ll get a tryout when camp opens as will a number of other D-Leaguers. In listening to Horny yesterday, he said that his message to the summer league team was that the Knicks have a lot of roster spots to fill and that it’s an opportunity. I doubt that any team will sign Early.

    The qualifying offer for Galloway simply means that he becomes a restricted free agent.

  121. I don’t think New York, Los Angeles, they’re not markets that you are going, ‘OK, you’re going through a rebuilding process,’” Hornacek said Thursday. “You have the ability to spend the money. You have attractive cities to go to. I think they’re always on the win-now thought process.”

  122. “We don’t have a player as good as Tyson Chanlder anymore, so until we fill that void, we won’t do as well as the 2013 Knicks did.”
    Only if you ignore the fact the Knicks’ record was much better that year when Chandler was out hurt/sick than when he played — or you ignore the fact that, when Melo was out that year (and Chandler was playing), the Knicks had a winning percentage below .400 but that, when he played (sans Tyson), they had a winning percentage well above .700.

  123. “I think they’re always on the win-now thought process.

    “Win Now, Lose Forever”

  124. This mindset was installed by Isiah Thomas and James Dolan last decade and then perpetuated by Stephen A Smith and Frank Isola since.

    They can feel that way all they want as long as they don’t trade draft picks anymore. Please no more trading of draft picks. Because when your win now mentality fails you need to be able to pull the plug on the remaining 42 games of a season and draft Kristaps Porzingis. When the Knicks fell short of a playoff spot this season, they should have had a fire sale and ended up with a top 5 pick. If San Antonio went all in on David Robinson and traded their pick in the ’97 draft they would have never landed Tim Duncan or the 5 championships they got with his teams. Like when everybody gets injured this year we can blow it up for peanuts and draft a good young player to put next to KP.

    Hopefully when Masai Ujiri gets to town he’ll rob the Lakers of a 1st round pick for Derrick Rose and he’ll put together a good team. And the funny thing with Ujiri is he has rebuilt/altered teams on the fly without any high lottery picks, so he’s perfect for the Knicks. I can’t wait until that guy is in town.

  125. Give Phil credit for at least attempting to create a balance of win now, develop for later. Not his fault we had no picks this year.

  126. “ORLANDO — Jeff Hornacek, at no point mentioning Joakim Noah by name, said he wants to specify in recruiting meetings with free-agent centers that the Knicks are going for it now and seek a pivot who won’t be used just as a defensive specialist.”

    Hornacek was speaking to Hassan Whiteside here, people. Book it.

  127. Rondo wants to come to NY. Rose trade has probably taken the Knicks out of discussion and Rondo will most likely sign with the Nets.

  128. I should know by now to pay no attention to things Phil or Horny say to the press, but now I’m mad. I’m mad online.

  129. He was also 6th in the NBA in rebound rate (behind Robinson and Marjanovic, who averaged less than 13 mpg).

    He also had the 8th best assist rate in the entire NBA.

  130. You can’t win and rebuild at the same time, guyz. That’s why the 76ers suffer through a few losing seasons before they go on their big spurts, and the Spurs have never been able to regenerate the success they had in the late ’90s, early ’00s.

  131. For what it’s worth, on NBA radio just now, both Justin Termine and Eddie Johnson predicted the Knicks would sign Courtney Lee.

  132. Now that I hear the Sixers are willing to “overpay” I wish we’d run a craziest contract pool. Dion? JR? MaxiMarvin? Could this be Cole’s moment?

  133. You guys are talking about winning without giving credit to the Zen master? You kidding?

  134. You ever notice how fifteen years of “win now” basketball didn’t actually result in very much winning?

  135. So we got a phone call with Batum. Now there’s a signing I could get behind.

    “Okay, Nic, so we signed Joakim Noah at $18M, which means we have about $13M left for y– Nic? You still there Nic? Hmm, call must have dropped.”

  136. Noah looks like a done deal. Hope his price is about 2years 25 to 30 mil $.More years or more money will not be encouraging.

  137. You ever notice how fifteen years of “win now” basketball didn’t actually result in very much winning?

    That’s ’cause Dolan is the NBA’s version of Dan Snyder. Snyder’s hire of a football guy is working wayyy better than Dolan’s hire of a basketball guy. Snyder has 1 advantage though. Contracts and trades don’t wreck teams in the NFL to the same extent as they do in the NBA.

  138. “Jeff Hornacek and Phil Jackson should immediately be fired”

    Yeah, big Knick fans here for sure!

  139. Phil has not traded any picks. Please stop saying it’s the same. It’s sooooo not.

  140. I know a lot of you guys like Lee, but he’s 30 and the very definition of average.

    That would be a huge step up from what we’ve had.

  141. Phil has not traded any picks. Please stop saying it’s the same. It’s sooooo not.

    misusing cap space
    signing long-gone veterans
    trading away picks

    vs.

    misusing cap space
    signing long-gone veterans
    giving no-trade clauses for no reason at all

    yeah, different

  142. Phil has not traded any picks. Please stop saying it’s the same. It’s sooooo not.

    I actually think that trading Grant is the equivalent of trading a pick.

    The last Knick to outstay his rookie contract in New York was Charlie Ward, drafted in 1994.

    Yes, that was twenty two years ago. Not trading future draft picks is great, but trading recent draft picks is pretty much the same thing, and the Dolan Knicks have routinely done that and Phil Jackson is now doing it.

  143. Have been disconnected most of the day. The only thing I have to say is I wouldn’t put any credence into what Hornacek said about no rebuilding. Best way to lose your veterans (read: Melo) right away is to start talking about rebuilding. They can always pivot if the year goes poorly. (That is, unless.they sign Noah to a 4 year contract or something. )

    By the way signing RFAs to max contracts does not equal rebuilding just because they’re young. Anyone that doesn’t get matched is being let go for a reason.

  144. I actually think that trading Grant is the equivalent of trading a pick.

    Except that it’s not.

    Not to mention that that wasn’t even the Knicks pick.

  145. misusing cap space
    signing long-gone veterans
    trading away picks

    vs.

    misusing cap space
    signing long-gone veterans
    giving no-trade clauses for no reason at all

    yeah, different

    How has cap space been misused? Who are the long gone vets? Rose @ 27? Noah on probably a 2 year deal?

    Melo NTC…who cares?

    If you think that this is equivalent to the Steve Franchise/ Eddy Curry type of deals you are trippin man

  146. Best way to lose your veterans (read: Melo) right away is to start talking about rebuilding.

    Yeah, but if you’re doing a proper rebuild you’re supposed to lose your veterans :)

  147. Phil Jackson has been a C- president but you absolutely cannot equate the Rose trade and Melo NTC to trading away unprotected 1st round picks the way every GM since the Dolan era has started did. Kristaps Porzingis gives the Knicks a chance at sustainable success, and to a lesser extent Langston Galloway, Marshall Plumlee, Marvelle Harris, Hernangomez, and Ron Baker represent the similar mindset of cheap and young players with upside. From here on out the Knicks own all of their 1st round picks. Say what you want, but that is an improvement on the norm around here. Getting from dumpster fire on all faces to basic competence is a step forward. Phil Jackson and Clarence Gaines value the NBA draft. They suck at free agency and trades and probably won’t install a successful regime, but if they get fired today they left the incoming GM with $32M in cap space and all of his first round picks.

    I’m a Jets fan. Before John Idzik, we had Terry Bradway and Mike Tannenbaum and those guys traded draft picks and restructured contracts in a way that our roster was left with old guys, no young foundation, and no cap space. John Idzik was a terrible evaluator of talent, but he valued bargain bin guys and draft picks. When he got fired, we had a ton of cap space, we had draft picks, and we had good young players. Even though he sucked, he was the type of sucking that was easily fixable.

    My point is that even if Phil fails in the end, as long as he does not trade draft picks or sign us up for a Rose mega max, our next president’s job will be easier than Phil’s was. If Grunwald and Walsh didn’t get fleeced, Phil probably would have built a better roster.

  148. The Clippers have a meeting with Durant. To make him an offer, they’d have to renounce Reddick.

    Reddick would instantly become the best shooter, and best guard, on the free agent market.

  149. Our Knicks are in the process of becoming great again. And it’s happening fast so you nonbelievers better get out of the way lest you get flattened.

  150. My dream scenario for this blog would be Phil fired and Hinkie hired as the new GM.

  151. @ruruland — you can’t win and rebuild if you’re strategy for winning is to sign washed up, fading talents. YOu can win and rebuild. You just have to be able to risk NOT winning by gambling on lesser known, less predictable talents. If you win on your gambles, you win and rebuild. You grow your asset pool while improving the team. That’s not what the knicks are doing.

    Iserp: The only possible explanation (if Phil gives him a really short contract) is that Phil is really trying to tank, and to misguide Dolan to think it was an accident, or bad luck with injuries, etc.

    Yeah, Dubin and Herring brought up on Dubin’s podcast the possibility that these moves are a result of interference from Isiah (Chicago/PG connection) or Dolan. The argument was that the rhetoric Jackson’s been putting out about step by step growth doesn’t match these aggressive moves at all.

    You can also connect this to the rumors that Dolan forced PJ to fire Fisher because Fisher said he wouldn’t be upset if NYK missed the playoffs, and the corresponding uptick of veteran minutes we saw under Rambis.

    It’s possible. It’s also possible that pressure from Melo’s camp brought these moves on. Maybe this is a final concession to Melo, and if the team crashes and burns (which if we end up with Rose, Noah and Evan Turner seems pretty damn likely), then Melo starts looking at trade proposals.

    Ah, speculation.

  152. The entire Noah potential signing rests on the condition of his knees, not his shoulder. From training camp last year Noah was having a problem with a left knee that had cartilage surgery at the end of the 2014 season.

    Noah’s entire value is dependent on the condition of his left knee going forward. If it is going to be ok, Phil is making a steal….. if it isn’t…. the Knicks will be hamstrung depending on the length of contract.

    We can only hope Noah’s medical condition has been thoroughly vetted.

  153. I want no part of Noah. A one year contract is passable but anything longer is horrible.

    We don’t need a center, Porzingis is our future at the 5 and we need to move forward like he is going to be an all-star. He might not progress but this franchise’s future over the next 3 years depends on his growth, so the only choice is to assume he will be great, if he isn’t who we sign doesn’t matter.

    On top of that the NBA is moving away from the lumbering center’s of old. We need to run and let Porzingis take advantage of his range and speed which at the 5 is an asset but at the 4 is average. Porzingis at the 5 and Melo at the 4 is the only way an offense with them in it works. Them both starting with a traditional center is slow and every offensive possession will be a slog, full of iso ball and mid range jumpers and no spacing.

    Let’s sign a couple wings, hope Rose is at least mediocre and move forward with a fast team built around Porzingis.

  154. Yeah, Dubin and Herring brought up on Dubin’s podcast the possibility that these moves are a result of interference from Isiah (Chicago/PG connection) or Dolan. The argument was that the rhetoric Jackson’s been putting out about step by step growth doesn’t match these aggressive moves at all.

    You can also connect this to the rumors that Dolan forced PJ to fire Fisher because Fisher said he wouldn’t be upset if NYK missed the playoffs, and the corresponding uptick of veteran minutes we saw under Rambis.

    You know… if you squint really hard looking at the Zapruder film, you can just about make out the image of James Dolan on the Grassy Knoll with smoke emanating from his rifle :-)

  155. @183 – Reub,

    I know that I’ll get lambasted for saying this, but I’m in your camp. The Knicks are interesting and I won’t have to endure a 3rd year in a row of pure misery.

    Rose and Noah are health risks but I believe that it’s worth the gamble because without taking a gamble we’ll suck for another decade. If the gamble pays off, and both players play at 85-90% of their peak, we’ll have a real shot in 2017-18 We’ll have $20M extra to spend of free agents. We’ll have a starting-5. We’ll have a 1st round pick and two 2nd rounders (HOU and CHI). It looks like a good way to rebuild.

  156. let’s just hope this goes as well as our last july 1 FA meeting at midnite with greg monroe….

  157. I don’t consider myself an optimist, but the pessimism on this board is pretty outrageous. Obviously the Knicks have made a ton of terrible moves for the past 10+ years, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re going to mess it all up this summer.

    @185, you can also win and rebuild by getting players on one year “prove-it” deals. That’s exactly what Rose is. If he plays well, we win while rebuilding. If he doesn’t, we rebuild by getting a good draft pick. I don’t think there is any reason (yet) to suggest that we’ll re-sign Rose, especially since Woj reported earlier this year that we have a good shot at getting Westbrook in 2017 (http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/240719/woj-knicks-have-real-chance-on-russell-westbrook-in-2017). Even James Dolan is smart enough to realize that Westbrook is better than Rose.

    @187, I hear you but I also think it is an incredibly bad idea to run KP out as our starting center in only his second year in the NBA for 30+ minutes a night. Even if he has added muscle this summer, it doesn’t make sense to risk injury making him bang with the biggest guys in the NBA night in and night out in a year where we aren’t going to contend. It makes perfect sense to gradually ease him into the center role.

    I agree that signing Noah to a long term deal is a terrible idea, but we haven’t signed Noah to a long term deal. Actually, the very fact that we’ve scheduled an afternoon meeting with him while also having a call with Batum (who will command a higher salary) suggests that we’re not all in on Noah. I’m not willing to freak out over the Noah signing until we see the specifics of the deal, assuming there is one.

    Also, re: guys like Evan Turner, Courtney Lee, and Bazemore, because the Knicks play in a major market we’re going to be connected to every big-ish free agent at positions of need. Of those three, I would be encouraged by a Lee signing on a shorter deal. I think we’ll be outbid on Bazemore.

  158. @186

    The entire Noah potential signing rests on the condition of his knees, not his shoulder.

    Agreed. I think the shoulder injury actually gave him more time to let the knee heal and do rehab. Perhaps it’s a blessing in disguise. I also hope that he’s checked out carefully by the medical staff.

  159. Well, if the Knicks do sign Noah to a big deal, I hope the doctor that vetted him for the Knicks is not named Frank Burns.

  160. I agree that signing Noah to a long term deal is a terrible idea, but we haven’t signed Noah to a long term deal.

    Totally agreed. If it happens, then fine, complain about it. But let it happen first. There’s still a chance that this is a 1+1.

  161. For Noah, I think I’d be fine with one year 18MM, 2 years 30MM, or 3 years 36MM. Ideally with team options on the last year of the multi-year contracts.

    3/36 would probably be starting at 11.5MM or so. Trade KOQ and you’ve got about $24MM for someone like Batum. Or 12 for Lee and some left over for backup PG.

  162. There’s still a chance that this is a 1+1.

    @194 – Brian, I think it probably will be and that’ll be the case for a lot of players because of the cap and rise in max deals.

  163. Hassan Whiteside is meeting with Portland, Dallas, and Miami. Miami is heading in the wrong direction, Dallas doesn’t have a roster in place (but they have a bunch of cap space), and Portland had Plumlee and Davis. Whiteside apparently has no intentions of meeting with the Lakers. I really think the Knicks and Whiteside were meant for each other. Whiteside and Porzingis is like Gasol and Bynum except younger and more awesome because it’s New York.

  164. They should probably have something for Whiteside but he will go for 4/100 and I am not sure if that’s his true value.

  165. i watch and enjoy this board quite a bit…i don’t post too often but i think i recalled liking and posting about the melo deal phil made in ’14. Melo’s salary goes from being 33% of the cap the first 2 years to 25-ish the second two years (75-80% of the max). Depending on his health and state-of-play by year 5 he could very well opt out. If things go south this coming season, i see him waiving the NTC and this salary under the new cap is VERY trade-able as it will be small compared to new-cap averages and very short in length! You get the benefit of appeasing both melo, his boss and a large portion of the fan base while giving yourself outs. If things don’t go well this year, we could get a haul for him and tank for a great pick in a deep draft. Happy to hear any other viewpoints on the topic, but i think Phil deserves kudos here.

  166. Whiteside thinks of himself as a businessman so it would make sense he’d want to play for the shark tank guy

  167. whiteside seems like such an epic douche. on a good, no-nonsense team like the spurs he’d be an absolute monster. On a team he perceives himself to be the ‘leader of’, he’d be an absolute cancer imo.

  168. whiteside seems like such an epic douche. on a good, no-nonsense team like the spurs he’d be an absolute monster. On a team he perceives himself to be the ‘leader of’, he’d be an absolute cancer imo.

    Have you seen him play?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4Eiq7K6pl8

  169. This might not sit well with the resident fanboys, but ever since the Rose trade I’ve been pretty unexcited about the upcoming free agency period. It just seems like every move we make will be geared towards being marginally better next year, while still probably missing the playoffs, at the cost of having any semblance of a long term plan. Signing Noah to anything more than a one year deal would be the perfect example of that. I know it hasn’t happened yet and maybe Phil will surprise us all, but my impression is he believes Derrick Rose is conducive to winning basketball games and that pretty much shakes me of any delusions I may have had about his abilities as an executive. And before anyone asks, yes I would fucking love to be wrong about all of this.

  170. Have you seen him play?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4Eiq7K6pl8

    No doubt dude is talented. The production, physical gifts and game changing ability is there. i freely admit i have no data to support my opinion that he will get a big contract and proceed to mail it in. That is unless he goes to a legit team with strong discipline and true championship aspirations. Someone needs to begin compiling a douche index and a knucklehead quotient.

  171. Whiteside to the Mavs would be such an epic waste of time. He’s probably only going there because there are no state taxes in Florida and the Mavs are prepared to offer him a max contract. Conley, Matthews, ???, Nowitzki, and Whiteside would be the new Clippers. They would never beat the Thunder, Spurs, or Warriors, and the Clippers would probably beat them too.

    At least go to Portland. They’re young. Dallas and Miami are wastes of Whiteside’s time.

  172. It just seems like every move we make will be geared towards being marginally better next year

    I get this and i struggle with our situation alot and go back & forth on things. I am a fan of the true rebuild. As a matter of fact hornacek’s comments today about big markets not rebuilding made me vomit in my mouth a bit. That said, i think its been clear that we want to hold onto our picks and also leverage free agency. If there’s one thing we learned about free agency between 2010 and now its that its really f*&king hard to attract true top free agents when you suck so epicly bad. .500 play, a playoff birth and a hard-fought first round exit becomes your marketing for free agents next year..its advertising. so while i dont want to do this half rebuild…i want the full, trade-melo monty, i understand the need to show improvement as a way to market to free agents. You can convince a big fish to be the last piece when you’ve won 45-50 games.

  173. Conley, Matthews, ???, Nowitzki, and Whiteside would be the new Clippers.

    i dunno. that sounds pretty formidable to me. i like conley…i’ll be disappointed if the mavs get him. i assumed we didnt pursue cause it was clear memphis was locking him up.

  174. and a knucklehead quotient.

    Wilbon, is that you? If so, fuck you, hack.

    If not, disregard.

  175. ???

    That dude is on the Knicks.

    Him and his 9 twin brothers. well-played sir.

    I got to say thanks to you guys. This board has pulled me through the dark days of knick fandom.

  176. Wilbon, is that you? If so, fuck you, hack.

    If not, disregard.

    What bugs me now is that people is that people sit in their mother’s basements and write this crap and they don’t have any knowledge of what is going on in that place, and it’s too easy to get it.

  177. Well Wilbon doesn’t know what goes on here in my mom’s basement, so Wilbon can eat me.

  178. We have a state income tax of 9.9% here in Oregon. Texas is 0.00%. But then again, you’d have to live in Houston instead of Portland, so that’s, uh, not so good.

  179. Man. The years whizz by one after the other and nothing ever changes with the Knicks.

    Anyone remember the Eddy Curry trade? If you had told me then that the Bulls would still be fucking us over 12 years later…

  180. ess-dog!

    Long time no see. Get the fuck out while you still can.

    Love,

    Not an ortho surgeon

  181. I know it hasn’t happened yet and maybe Phil will surprise us all, but my impression is he believes Derrick Rose is conducive to winning basketball games and that pretty much shakes me of any delusions I may have had about his abilities as an executive.

    Well… despite your perception Mr. Rose IS conductive to winning basketball. He has never been on a roster with a losing record even when his teams were coached by Vinny del Negro! He was the best player on a 62 win team and played very well (if imperfectly) for his first 4 seasons in the NBA.

    His health may be an issue (and it may turn out to be a huge negative issue), but the notion that when healthy for some mystical reason he isn’t conducive to winning basketball is inconsistent with the facts.

  182. Well Wilbon doesn’t know what goes on here in my mom’s basement, so Wilbon can eat me.

    i’ll let him know

  183. Also trading Grant is absolutely similar to trading a pick. I know there’s been a huge rush to pretend everyone we traded away was a bum who we’re lucky to be rid of, but Grant actually played pretty decently for a rookie point guard, especially given our highly questionable offense and environment, and got better as the season went on. I personally was excited for his development and think there’s a perfectly good chance he’s a legitimate rotation player for a good team. That’s all you can really ask for in a pick.

  184. Well… despite your perception Mr. Rose IS conductive to winning basketball. He has never been on a roster with a losing record even when his teams were coached by Vinny del Negro! He was the best player on a 62 win team and played very well (if imperfectly) for his first 4 seasons in the NBA./blockquote>

    Bob… Bobb-o… Bobby… that’s not how it works.

  185. I was pretty upbeat about where the Knicks were headed before the Rose trade. Jackson had said enough of the right things and done enough of the right things that it felt like the Knicks were invested in a long-term strategy. Not a full rebuild but a culture change that valued acquiring good players on good contracts while taking the right kind of chances on guys that might turn into valuable players. Obviously with a bunch of missteps along the way but at a basic level trying to build an organization that was taking the way the Spurs operate as inspiration. Not perfect execution but making strides forward such as were possible given the pick situation and the FA/cap situation.

    The Rose trade is the opposite of that, a win now attitude instead of a build it up attitude. Overpaying for big names instead of finding diamonds in the rough (do you want to be the team that maxes Whiteside or the team that gets his production cheap because everybody else slept on him? The team that trades your rookie contracts or the team that develops those players?). I was hoping that trading for Rose and even the rumors about Noah were about doing a stealth tank because Jackson felt we needed a stronger younger base and picks are the easiest way to achieve that but politically he couldn’t explicitly tank. But with Hornacek’s comments today.. I know Jackson makes a point of trolling the press and I hope free agency doesn’t go the way it seems like it will but I feel like Charlie Brown and Jackson’s Lucy with the football.

    There’s a lesson there. Hope for the Knicks is something you should only indulge in after the fact or you’re always going to be falling on your ass.

  186. I personally was excited for his development and thing there’s a perfectly good chance he’s a legitimate rotation player for a good team. That’s all you can really ask for in a pick.

    There’s a solid chance he’s better than Derrick Rose this season.

  187. Guys Jerian Grant was not good last year. He posted a WS/48 of .030 and shot a ghastly 22% from 3 point range. And those numbers include the good Jerian Grant to close the season, so imagine just how bad he was before the meaningless games kicked in. If he becomes anything better than a replacement level player I’ll buy his jersey.

  188. And trading Grant, Calderon, and Lopez for Derrick Rose was incredibly stupid on a basketball level. It was a last ditch effort to get KDs attention, and it did so it’s a little forgivable on that level. It was plain dumb to trade those guys for Derrick Rose because Rose has been bad and there is like a 10% chance he gives you good and healthy minutes next year.

    All of that said, Jerian Grant was bad, he looks awkward when he plays basketball, and he cannot shoot. How good is that guy going to be in a league that is shooting 3s at an all time high?

  189. jerian grant should not have been a throw-in… i wasn’t thrilled with the pick to start with but it just seemed so unnecessary to include him…. he is an older prospect but pg’s do to tend to breakout later that the other positions…. i don’t think it will come back to bite us but he had >0 value….

  190. All of that said, Jerian Grant was bad, he looks awkward when he plays basketball, and he cannot shoot. How good is that guy going to be in a league that is shooting 3s at an all time high?

    Derrick Rose can’t shoot either. If we had move grant for a pick or a guy who can shoot or something I wouldn’t be annoyed. We moved him for a guy who might be worse and who has no long term value.

  191. Guys Jerian Grant was not good last year. He posted a WS/48 of .030 and shot a ghastly 22% from 3 point range. And those numbers include the good Jerian Grant to close the season, so imagine just how bad he was before the meaningless games kicked in. If he becomes anything better than a replacement level player I’ll buy his jersey.

    While Grant didnt have the greatest rookie season in the world, that doesnt mean he couldnt develop into something. is it guaranteed? no. But i understand the frustration over the trading grant for rose. Young potential for broken down has-been. If the rose gamble goes well, we get the single season production and marketing for next year’s free agency. If his health is reasonable, its an upgrade at PG. BUT, in the long term, its sacrificing youth/development for an expiring contract risk. But stop deluding yourself…we’re not in full rebuild mode anyway so until melo is gone we’ll be in this hybrid approach. We get off to a shitty first half and the rebuild is on!

  192. Bob… Bobb-o… Bobby… that’s not how it works.

    Read for comprehension, not trolling purposes Mr non orthopod :-)

    The man said Rose wasn’t conducive to winning basketball. You may not like his ball dominant style, but he posted a lot of wins and a lot of very good advanced stats. Whether he returns to anything near that form is conjecture, but I’m guessing the Knicks have better information than we do with respect to that.

    I train 4 legged athletes for a living for the last 43 years. In 1983 I claimed a horse for $40,000 that was a former champion but sat out 18 months with a severe knee injury. He raced back 5 times for another trainer and I liked the way he looked on the track and I claimed him for $40,000. He made $203,000 for me in the next 13 months and I sold him for $75,000.

    Two years ago I bought another horse for $68,000 who I knew had a very questionable health issue. He won $40,000 for me the first 30 days I owned him and set a North American record and got severely injured and hasn’t raced for 14 months.

    When you are dealing with athletes, you make the best decisions you can with the best info available. If you are correct in your evaluations in the majority, you prosper. Rose was a very low risk trade who may entice a better player to sign than if the Knicks currently had Rolo (who has had his own durability issues) and Grant.

    We will see…..

  193. My point isn’t that Derrick Rose is better than Grant. My point is that I did not care at all about losing Grant because I have very little faith in Grant’s ability to amount to anything. Losing Lopez and Calderon for Rose pissed me off because they’re actually good basketball players.

  194. Wait, Calderon is now a good basketball player?

    How?

    Yes, he doesn’t force shots and he makes the ones he takes at a high rate.

    But he serves no other basic function as a point guard and can’t play off the ball because he’s one of the league’s biggest defensive liabilities.

    Also, no proponent of the trade and giving up Grant and Lopez, but the Knicks essentially cleared 30 million in cap space.

    Yes, opportunity cost. Yes, good player/good contract. But include the space as an asset.

  195. But he serves no other basic function as a point guard and can’t play off the ball because he’s one of the league’s biggest defensive liabilities.

    Per 36
    Asst TO RPM DRPM
    Old ham farmer 5.3 1.5 .22 -.40
    New PG 5.3 3.0 -4.36 -2.35

    Jose wasn’t particularly good, and his biggest weakness (defense) was exacerbated by playing with the likes of Arron Afflalo. I liked Jose, and I enjoyed rooting for him, but I don’t care that he’s gone. I care that he and Grant are gone and the guy who is replacing them is at least a decent bet to be worse, and maybe much worse.

  196. Some of you should seek therapy immediately! Find a different team to call your own. Realize that you know next to nothing about basketball. All of the above.

  197. These board is infatuated with the “full rebuild” model of stockpiling picks, as this monolith has declared that draft picks are the most valuable asset, given their flexibility, etc.

    But for as often as the Knicks lack of success in free agency and trades is recited ad nauseam, very rarely is the poster franchise of the rebuilding model ever discussed here.

    In year five of the rebuild, the 76ers have five lottery picks on their roster (not including Carter-Williams). They have eight other players with three years or less experience, all of whom were mid to late firsts, second round picks, or upside undrafteds.

    And where are they at now?

    What about the Nuggets, who were supposed to be set up for long-term success after the Masai fleecing?

    They’ve averaged 33 wins over the last three years with all of those picks and assets.

  198. Man, what an epic thread…ess-dog, latke, Ben R coming outta the woodwork…who’s next, Caleb?

  199. Losing Lopez and Calderon for Rose pissed me off because they’re actually good basketball players.

    @232 – Lopez was good but not that good.
    How you can say that Calderon was good is simply shocking. Did you watch the Knicks at all last year? I’ve said it earlier, I would have traded Calderon for a bag of balls.

  200. I care that he and Grant are gone and the guy who is replacing them is at least a decent bet to be worse, and maybe much worse.

    I’m sorry, but other than Mudiay and DeAngelo Williams, was there a worse PG tandem in the league than Calderon/Grant? If Rose has a pulse he isn’t going to be worse, and if he is, they’ve cleared an ass load of cap space moving forward, picked up a pick and maybe a semi useful player.

  201. Why do we seem to forget that we essentially traded RoLo and Calderon for Rose, and Grant for Holiday and a 2nd round pick? It’s not like we got nothing back for Grant. So, no, we did not trade either a pick or the equivalent of a pick, we got fair value in return. Grant has potential, but no more potential than can be easily found in the D-League every year. I understand being upset at the first move, but please, stop about Grant.

  202. Calderon can shoot when he’s WIDE open. He’s maybe the worst defender I’ve ever seen.

  203. These board is infatuated with the “full rebuild” model of stockpiling picks, as this monolith has declared that draft picks are the most valuable asset, given their flexibility, etc.

    nah

    What about the Nuggets, who were supposed to be set up for long-term success after the Masai fleecing?

    They’ve averaged 33 wins over the last three years with all of those picks and assets.

    It’s better than averaging 28, and that’s fac-fucking-torial.

    There are many paths to the summit of the mountain, but we seem to be walking in circles. If we’d added some nice young players in free agency ala Portland last year I don’t think there would be a lot of complaining here that we don’t have enough draft picks. If we’d traded RoLo, Calderon & Grant for a solidish wing and a PG who had been good in the last 4 years I’d be okay with that. We haven’t done any of that.

  204. Before the chips start to fall, any predictions on who will get the most undeserved max contract of them all?

    I’m gonna go with Harrison Barnes.

  205. I don’t think this board is infatuated with any full rebuild. It’s just that when you trade your only assets for one of the league’s 5 worst and maybe top 3 most injury prone players people get mad.

    I totally get it. But I’ll still enjoy watching Derrick Rose break ankles and lose games.

  206. Yeah it’s hard to beat a 24 year old one time champion and member of Team USA’s gold medal winning men’s basketball team for most undeserved max contract. They’re gonna use the fact that he’s played on great teams to finagle that into his max contract. I hope Danny Ainge’s team pays him.

  207. Actually I’ll take Bradley Beal and his 5 year max deal as most undeserved. Yeah, no way you can beat that.

  208. Beal is another good possibility! I’m sticking with Barnes, though.

    A wild card could be whoever the Lakers max out. No telling how desperate they could become as everyone appears to be snubbing them, so far. I think they should max out Noah!

  209. Demar Derozan either took a leap last year and evolved into a good (if overrated) player, or he had a career season and is about to get overpaid in full. He’d be a good pick int he underserved max sweepstakes.

  210. It’s better than averaging 28, and that’s fac-fucking-torial

    Nah, dude. The 17-win season got us KP. Would u rather have Mudiay?

  211. @250
    Who are free agents right now? Two. LeBron and KD. No one else deserves it, but a few others will get one. IMHO.

  212. Why do we seem to forget that we essentially traded RoLo and Calderon for Rose, and Grant for Holiday and a 2nd round pick?

    If you look at it that way, it’s still a bad trade. If there was no Rose component of the trade, and the trade was instead Grant for Holliday and $2.4 million in cash. Would you be okay with that? Holliday is not young, and has never been good. And $2.4 million is what GS paid for the #38 pick last week. I think you’d be scratching your head over that trade along with the rest of us, no?

  213. The man said Rose wasn’t conducive to winning basketball. You may not like his ball dominant style, but he posted a lot of wins and a lot of very good advanced stats. Whether he returns to anything near that form is conjecture, but I’m guessing the Knicks have better information than we do with respect to that.

    I loved his ball-dominant style. He was a good player in 2010-11. He was overrated, but good.

    As I said, he was #12 on those Bulls in DRtg, which I admit is not a great stat, but why are we acting like he was the anchor in the league’s very best defense? #11 in DBPM, too.

    If he was such an explosive offensive talent — and if we’re attributing all those wins to him — why were they only 11th in ORtg as a team?

    This franchise tried to win last year and ended up with 17 wins. This year, they tried to win again, and ended up with 32. Do you really want to appeal to the authority of these decision-makers who have fielded just 3 better-than-.500 seasons since 2001? Do you really think the Knicks know better, when they consistently show that they do not?

  214. It’s better than averaging 28, and that’s fac-fucking-torial.

    Yah imagine if we had that “flexibility” 5 more wins baby

  215. Legit question: If RoLo was a FA this year, how much would he command in this market?

    Legit answer: $14 million per for 3 years

  216. If you look at it that way, it’s still a bad trade. If there was no Rose component of the trade, and the trade was instead Grant for Holliday and $2.4 million in cash. Would you be okay with that? Holliday is not young, and has never been good. And $2.4 million is what GS paid for the #38 pick last week. I think you’d be scratching your head over that trade along with the rest of us, no?

    No. We can still buy that pick and have 2. A pick is a pick is a pick.

    You can trump up Grant’s value all you want to feed your morbid hatred for Phil. At the end of the day, Donnie Walsh was the worst of the worst GMs we’ve had in the last 20 years. Everything you hate about this team is grounded in his bad decisions. Hard to take anything someone who chooses his name as his moniker seriously.

  217. Ruruland got me thinking. How many guys are likely to get max contracts, regardless of worth? LeBron and KD are obvious. Others? DeRozan is probably a lock. Drummond, Conley, Whiteside, Horford, Batum, Beal, Barnes seem likely. Parsons? Fournier? Player X by the Lakers?

  218. Alright, maybe that was uncalled for, sorry Donnie. Let’s just say that I vehemently disagree with your reasoning on this one.

  219. Christian Wood is back on the market. He might be a young guy to bolster the roster with.

  220. @261
    Heck with that! Carlos Boozer is back on the market. Seriously. And he wants to be a mentor for some young guy. I wonder who?

  221. what an epic thread…ess-dog, latke, Ben R coming outta the woodwork…who’s next, Caleb?

    Every July 1st the band gets back together again…

  222. Every July 1st the band gets back together again…

    Z! Mah bruthuh from anothuh mothuh!

  223. As I said, he was #12 on those Bulls in DRtg, which I admit is not a great stat, but why are we acting like he was the anchor in the league’s very best defense? #11 in DBPM, too.

    Not Orthopod… goal post shift much? Who on earth “acts like he was the anchor in the league’s best defense?” Stop pulling stuff out of you backside, plz.

    If he was such an explosive offensive talent — and if we’re attributing all those wins to him — why were they only 11th in ORtg as a team?

    Is the object of basketball to win games or lead the league in advanced stats? If you prefer to cherry pick stats, Rose had double the win shares of anyone on that team. Double. He was 5th in the entire league in win shares behind LeBron, Gasol, Paul and Howard. Are you saying he didn’t play well ?????

    This franchise tried to win last year and ended up with 17 wins. This year, they tried to win again, and ended up with 32. Do you really want to appeal to the authority of these decision-makers who have fielded just 3 better-than-.500 seasons since 2001? Do you really think the Knicks know better, when they consistently show that they do not?

    The 2001-2014 sample is irrelevant to the current administration. I am only interested in the current group running things. I realize Phil traded your boy Chandler who laid down on them on multiple occasions and wanted a long contract and was done but I judge his moves not in the context of what was done by his predecessors.

  224. Christian Wood would be a good signing for the vet minimum. He has good per minute stats and he’s a little under .100 in his WS/48 and WP/48. Get him on a multi year deal and you’ve got a good 21 year old prospect who might be a rotation player in this league.

  225. Listen skeptics, Phil’s Prime Directive: Undo the Curry Trade!!

    So far we are on the verge of getting Noah back…in a few years and knee surgeries we will sign LMA to a max deal and call it quits.

  226. It really is fun how basketball gives us this period where it is basically a whole separate season.

  227. @256 Z-Man,
    Robin Lopez’s salary this year is $13.5M. He was statistically better, across the board, last year than the year before. But convert that to 2016-17 salary reality and it’s $18M (see that table I posted a link to).

    I think you all are going to flip out by the free agency salary numbers.

  228. Yeah, Brian, then there’s summer league and then 3 months of horrible nothingness. I’m already dreading the dog days. Maybe the Mets will perk up and help a bit.

  229. Right, which is why it’s so stupid to think of Melo’s deal as a “Mega-Max”. It’s not anything near that.

  230. Tough question Z-Man. It’s a good year for bigs, so maybe his price would go down a bit?

  231. berman reporting they are working on a 3yr 48-53mm for noah… with 3rd yr partially guaranteed…

    not horrible.. but still not ok with it….

  232. @270 – That’s what I mean. It’s economics.

    Rolo’s stats last year were better than when the Knicks signed him. He would be more “valuable” to teams, meaning desirable. But the metrics have changed.

    A better way to explain what I mean is to say that last year he managed to get the Knicks to pay him 19.1% of the salary cap. But the cap went up an insane 34.3% this year. Let that sink in. It went from $70M to $94M! That means that if you spent 19.1% of the cap this year on Lopez, you expect to pay him $18.1M.

    But didn’t I say he did BETTER than before we signed him? I say, based on pure math and a slight increate, he would go for $18M or more.

  233. Vertical Sources: Joakim Noah and the New York Knicks are in discussions on the framework of a deal in range of four years, $70M-plus.

    LOL.

  234. Vertical Sources: Joakim Noah and the New York Knicks are in discussions on the framework of a deal in range of four years, $70M-plus.

    Lolololol

  235. So basically Phil traded a year of guaranteed, much higher floor, for 2-4 million more for one fewer year and much higher upside and a lower floor.

    I understand wanting to get more or something different for Lopez instead of another low floor/higher ceiling/increased flexibility piece, but how does keeping Lopez achieve anything?

  236. @278 that’s the point, what could he get in this market, vs. what is he actually worth? Is it fair to say that he would be a better deal in THIS market than he was when he signed him? In other words, is it less of a big deal that we traded him at his contract, since he would not command more in this market even though his statistical value has increased?

  237. 4 years/$70+m for Noah is an unmitigated disaster, IF TRUE. Even reub cannot spin that one positively!
    :-(

  238. lopez would absolutely get 4yrs 18mm in this market…

    if noah getes 4yr anything with no team options… we are quite possibly screwed for a little while….

  239. If Phil signs Noah for 4 years 70+ that’s a fireable offense

  240. Phil can go ahead and fire himself if he signs Noah to a 4 year deal. Don’t do it. Do not do it.

  241. Do people now see the value of Robin Lopez’s contract? And they got Derrick fucking Rose for it. This franchise is doomed.

  242. IF healthy and somewhat less productive then he was 2 seasons ago, Noah is good value at 17ish per. He’ll outproduce that significantly. I would be less annoyed at a 4 year deal for Noah without the Rose trade-even if we’d done Lopez for a second round pick just to dump the salary.

  243. the bright side is that berman’s source was probably someone in the knicks FO and woj’s sources are almost always the agents… so coming out of the meeting with no deal is a good sign….

  244. Right, we are disregarding Berman’s source, which is obviously front office?

    The FO wants 2 years guaranteed at 16-17. Noah’s agent wants three guaranteed years at 17. Noah REALLY wants to sign in NY. C’mon, Phil.

  245. I hate 4/70but I guess the thinking is that it doesn’t. Matter because of the exploding cap. Still hate it tho

  246. Yep, that’s the negotiation equilibrium. 2 years at 18-20. Not perfect, but could still absolutely CRUSH value in today’s market.

    Lopez will exceed value, but can’t crush it like Noah MAY be capable of.

  247. Do people now see the value of Robin Lopez’s contract? And they got Derrick fucking Rose for it. This franchise is doomed.

    Slow clap….great analysis here.

    Doooooom! Because Robin Lopez.

  248. @285 – I get what you’re saying, that his salary is a good deal now because of the salary inflation. Yup. That’s probably why we got the Bulls to make the trade. Rose is more, but his contract ends at the end of the year.

    But value to me is a relative term. Once we’ve landed the players in free agency, all that salary stuff goes out the window. The question is, would you rather have Lopez or Rose? Part of the value to Rose is scarcity. It’s easier to find a center than a point guard in free agency this year.

  249. Well, if Mozgov gets 4/$56m or so, maybe Noah is not quite so bad, but hopefully only 2 guaranteed years…?

  250. Berman’s article had a line about scouts reporting that Noah has a good post game, which is a weird statement on multiple levels. So I’m not putting much stock in his analysis of the situation.

  251. Phil was apparently the first to call Courtney Lee for whatever that’s worth.

  252. noah has perceived higher value than mozgov but he really should be getting less….

  253. it would be nice if the knicks had money left over for Crabbe if Portland goes with Parsons

  254. Part of the value to Rose is scarcity. It’s easier to find a center than a point guard in free agency this year.

    Just find one? There are lots of point guards. Should we care if they’re any good?

  255. YB90 you have a great mind and are quite the opportunist! Can Portland afford a maxed Parsons and Crabbe for $15M too? Plus Harkless?

  256. 17 mill is like average starter money. Maybe a shade higher. So that’s fine. It’s 4 years thats dumb.

  257. SJK: you can also win and rebuild by getting players on one year “prove-it” deals. That’s exactly what Rose is. If he plays well, we win while rebuilding. If he doesn’t, we rebuild by getting a good draft pick.

    No, this is being a farm system for the rest of the league. You invest minutes and cap space in a player who you then have zero advantage to re-sign.

    As far as RWB goes, isn’t there always that fantasy FA out there that if we just do X, Y and Z, we have a 1% chance to sign? We catered to CAA’s whims and threw away multiple picks to create cap space on the dream that all that work would get us Lebron. We ended up with Stoudemire.

    Maybe I’m being a little crazy here, but what about this idea: Build a sustainably good, cap flexible team. Maybe that’s a good way to lure FAs. And the bonuses are that if 99% likely outcome comes to be true and Westbrook or Lebron or KD don’t sign with you, you still have a good team, you have assets disposable in the event of the far more common situation where an under-contract star wants out, and you give yourself a better chance of finding a star internally.

    The expense is you can’t waste your time on aging, name brand players. You might have to give up 5 wins next season now and again to give yourself a long term likely outcome of +10 wins. Do this often enough though and you are so rich in talent that you can make that sacrifice. You can do things like trading George Hill level talents for the 15th pick in a draft when there’s a guy you like.

  258. I get the relative scarcity argument, but we literally had 2 PGs on the roster who are better than Rose has been for the last 4 seasons

  259. I hope that Courtney Lee signs with us before he realizes that he can be a max player this year too.

  260. Marginally. But would you argue that Rose’s ceiling isn’t significantly higher?

    We all know about his floor and that most of the posters here think that he’s going to be just as awful as he was the previous two years.

  261. I’d guess that the “framework” of the deal being negotiated between Noah and Phil is #of guaranteed years vs. options?

    Please, let it be 2+2 team options, but the Mozgov deal may kill that.

  262. Wait, latke, the Knicks are more cap flexible than they were before the Lopez trade.

  263. I don’t think Phil will go more than two guaranteed years. I bet it gets around $20M though.

  264. It’s getting late so if you’re going to trash Phil could you please do it in 15 words or less?

  265. Lee would be nice. Can shoot and play D. Good team guy. Just play D, spot up and shoot.

    Gonna be an older team, though, and injury prone. Depth will be huge. Please only 1 or 2 guaranteed years for Noah. Probably will end up 3, though.

    I’d imagine the Knicks are really trying hard to clear O’Quinn’s salary, esp. if Hernangomez really is coming over.

  266. The Bulls, one of the better organizations over the past decade are dumping Rose and Noah and the Knicks, one of the worst, are happily absorbing them. This team cares about the soap opera much more than it does winning.

  267. At best, this team is gonna cap out as a worse version of our 54 win team, with the same result–we exit in the 2nd round and crash and burn due to overeliance on aging veterans and have no contingency plan when it all goes to shit late in the season/the next year. And that’s the best case scenario.

  268. ?@sam_amick
    The Joakim Noah-to-NY deal isn’t done, but I’m told the fourth year of the $72 mil deal – as currently discussed – would be guaranteed.

    Guaranteed for crapola.

  269. I’ll believe it when I see it. Until then, you have people on both sides with interest to make up stories one way or the other.

    If it is 4 years/$72 million, then yes, that’s not good on a whole lot of levels.

  270. Rivers played well in the playoffs even when bloodied. Still young and plays defense.

  271. When I said Derrick Rose was not conducive to winning basketball games, I wasn’t referring to the version from half a decade ago. He was a very good, albeit overrated, player. When discussing a player’s ability I thought it was pretty well understood you’re talking about what they’ve done for the last 2-3 years, in which Derrick Rose has either been injured or fucking sucked.

    I love Joakim Noah as a player, but he’s also 31 and showing signs of decline. Even if he plays to his awesome career averages next year we probably won’t all that good, and he’ll only get older after that. If it’s longer than two years, it’s just plain bad.

  272. If Noah plays like he did in 14-15 but a few more minutes and a bit lower production, we’ll say he produced 8 wins. For 17 million that’s good! And there’s probably some upside if you believe he lost his shooting ability because of injuries that have been repaired.

    So, best reasonable case to me is he basically produces to his contract. Hell obviously decline, but the cap will go up. But again we’re taking a lot of risk (he keeps getting hurt or he’s done as a productive player in a year or two) for very little upside, and all the upside is in the years were not likely to be title challengers.

  273. the one possible saving grace to us caving on noah’s demands on a 4th year.. and i sure hope we don’t… is that we might get another amnesty provision in the next cba…..

  274. The Bulls, one of the better organizations over the past decade

    The Bulls are a notoriously shitty franchise. Cut it out.

    They got the number 1pick as a 9 seed and got jimmy butler. That’s literally all they have done. Cut the pity party

  275. But again we’re taking a lot of risk (he keeps getting hurt or he’s done as a productive player in a year or two) for very little upside, and all the upside is in the years were not likely to be title challengers.

    This is kind of seems to be the essence of Phil’s grand plan. Sign some guys who might be good but also might not, with the added bonus that even in the best case scenario we won’t be contenders.

  276. @ruruland

    The problem with giving examples is that a well run organization would never be coming off a 32 win season with a roster that looks like the Knicks’, and it’s pointless to compare the Knicks to already-good teams since your priorities shift when running a good team.

    How many bad teams are there out there who have both an aging star and a good young prospect but also missed the playoffs 3x in a row?

    But if you want examples of GMs I admire, my two favorite are probably Morey and Ujiri. If you aren’t looking at a title window of next year, your job is to look at the market and to become the supplier for whatever the market most demands. You respect the long term value of your assets, not just what they can give you next year, but you don’t dogmatically waffle between the two puritanical extremes of pursuing immediate wins and pursuing the best lotto pick. This allows you to negotiate from a position of power. Not that I don’t think there’s a place for tanking in building a good team. I just think (as Hinkie himself said repeatedly) that it’s not all that practical unless you really are totally bankrupt of assets.

  277. Grant, Lopez and Calderon condemned us to less than mediocrity. Like Icarus, I’d rather try flying closer to the sun.

  278. In light of Mozgov’s deal, can someone tell me more about how we could never have gotten a pick for mega albatross Robin Lopez?

  279. It’s getting late. Almost 2 hours into free agency and Phil hasn’t produced a single signing. Let’s fire him already.

  280. I love how Timofey Mozgov now makes $5,000,000 more a year than Steph Curry.

  281. I love how Timofey Mozgov now makes $5,000,000 more a year than Steph Curry.

    Mind blown.

  282. doesn’t matter how many times you read the Icarus story; he never doesn’t died

    the Knicks are suck again

  283. I just don’t get what the market for Mozgov was. He’s a fine player, but how could his market be that big?

  284. Bradley Beal makes more than Melo

    Yup, and they’re both paid a lot more than they should be, but at least now Melo is out of the running for worst contract in the league!

  285. Because that’s the price for an average bigman

    It definitely is, but when there’s a market. That’s what confuses me. Who else was in on Mozgov to get him to the level of an average salary?

  286. Mozgov at that price would make a lot more sense to me if the Lakers swung and missed at all of the better centers first

  287. Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account
    ?@WojVerticalNBA
    Sources: Free agent guard Eric Gordon has emerged as Knicks’ top perimeter target. Sides starting to discuss parameters of a possible deal.

    lol

  288. Yup, and they’re both paid a lot more than they should be, but at least now Melo is out of the running for worst contract in the league!

    Mannnn. Beal has played 60 games 1 fucking time in 4 years. And that’s with a career high of 63. He has a .7 win share and a sub .55 ts. That’s not even close. Beal is a barely below avg player who is always fucking hurt. Melo at 32 is twice the value of Bradley Beal. And he’s underpaid now relative to the values of new contracts. Don’t put them in the same sentence bruh.

  289. When Mozgov had his breakout game vs Detroit in late January of 2011 I knew then and there he was destined for a 65m-4yr contract….

  290. Mannnn. Beal has played 60 games 1 fucking time in 4 years. And that’s with a career high of 63. He has a .7 win share and a sub .55 ts. That’s not even close. Beal is a barely below avg player who is always fucking hurt. Melo at 32 is twice the value of Bradley Beal. And he’s underpaid now relative to the values of new contracts. Don’t put them in the same sentence bruh.

    Yeah actually the entire point of my post was that Beal is clearly worse despite being paid similarly

  291. Free agent guard Eric Gordon has emerged as Knicks’ top perimeter target. Sides starting to discuss parameters of a possible deal.

    And Phil Jackson has emerged as the guy every agent and GM in the league takes advantage of.

  292. Rose. Noah. Gordon.

    Phil Jackson is on a quest to sign any player who is in worse physical condition than the Zen Master himself.

  293. Has our medical staff found a magical potion to repair knees?

    BTW, I wouldnt be as angry with Eric Gordon if the price is right, since he is still a good shooter at least.

  294. I’m with Gordon over Lee. Younger and better shooter.

    Rose
    Gordon
    Melo
    KP
    Noah

    I’m with it man. It’s crazy enough to work.

    Everyone could be on the IR and we win 20 games. Hello 1st round pick here we come Or we catch lightning in a bottle and go to the ECF Hahahahahahahahahaha

  295. Rose and Gordon are both 27 yo, backcourt of the future!! In all seriousness Gordon is a very good offensive player, excellent shooter, pretty efficient overall too and is a good passer for a SG. But defensively he is pretty awful and of course after playing in 78 games his rookie season he hasnt played in more than 64 games in any of his next 7 seasons.

    Gonna be very interesting to see his contract if they do sign him especially compared to the other SG’s on the market.

  296. When I mentioned it being destined that Gordon would be their guy, I was just joking. The Knicks are the NBA equivalent of Poe’s Law.

  297. Gonna be very interesting to see his contract if they do sign him especially compared to the other SG’s on the market.

    He made $15 million next year, so I have to imagine it’ll be roughly that. The Knicks have room to sign him for $14 million a year and Noah for $18 million a year.

  298. Oh this is terrible. I’m gonna have to put $1,000 on the Knicks’ under this season. This feels like Isiah Thomas is signing the contracts.

  299. Man there’s so much potential for boom or bust here. The fucking Knicks will have the max national games this year. We will then

    A. Be mocked all year on national airwaves
    B: Phil being praised as the new Jerry West

    I got my popcorn ready

  300. This is so terrible. Wow. And multi year deals too? This feels like what the Pelicans did when they traded for Holiday and signed Gordon and Evans to long term deals in the same year. Oh man. Wow. This is so bad.

  301. A better over/under would be how many games do Rose-Gordon-Melo-KP-Noah start together??

  302. 82 games.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Over the lifetime of the contracts (presuming Rose re-signs here).

  303. But why are we signing these injury prone all stars to long term deals? What the fuck?

    Somebody has to stop this from happening. Please don’t drop a Woj bomb on me.

  304. I mean, they haven’t done anything yet. The Gordon deal might be a make good contract. We don’t know yet. So let’s not freak out yet. Now if it is a long term deal for whatever part of the cap Noah doesn’t get and the Noah deal is also a long term deal, then, well, yeah…not so good.

  305. And then they want Austin fucking Rivers to be the back up point guard. Somebody burn down the front office please.

  306. Howard Eisley will be asst coach/backup PG. When I read that they hired him I went back and looked at his stats with the Knicks and he was actually pretty good in the 2002-2003 season.

  307. And then they want Austin fucking Rivers to be the back up point guard. Somebody burn down the front office please.

    Lmao I loathe Austin. Phil you better not man. I with picket MSG

  308. Austin Rivers, our projected back up point guard, averaged like 2.5 assists per 36 last year.

    If this isn’t the very definition of burning your money I don’t know what is. Maybe everybody blows their knee out and we draft Josh Jackson or Harry Giles.

  309. I find it hard to believe that they can sign both Rivers and Gordon for $14 million. So that’s sort of good news there.

  310. @390 oh thanks. I guess I’m too enebriated to catch the dry humor. Jeez. Goodnight

  311. And in other “because Knicks” news, Hassan Whiteside is conducting meetings in New York and the New York Knicks are not currently scheduled to meet with him.

  312. And in other “because Knicks” news, Hassan Whiteside is conducting meetings in New York and the New York Knicks are not currently scheduled to meet with him.

    How is that the Knicks fault?

  313. Bro by all accounts the Knicks haven’t even reached out to Hassan Whiteside. They’re too busy chasing down the injury prone Joakim Noah.

  314. But why wouldn’t he want to come here? The Knicks have Melo and former NBA MVP Derrick Rose!

  315. Eric Gordon, by the way, is at least one of the nicer guys in the entire NBA. So that’s something.

  316. I can get over Joakim Noah. I really can. He’s a great player when he’s healthy. But Eric Gordon is below average when he’s healthy, and that was only half the season last year! He has never played more than 65 games in a season since his rookie year. There is no reason to sign that guy. Plain and simple. Not when there are better options out there.

  317. Jordan Clarkson has reached agreement on a four-year, $50M deal to return to the Los Angeles Lakers, league sources tell The Vertical.

    This seems like a really good deal for the lakers.

  318. This seems like a really good deal for the lakers.

    They had Clarkson in a real tough spot. No one was going to be able to blow him away with an offer due to the restricted nature of his free agency and it would be such a huge risk to play next year under his qualifying offer. But yes, that’s an excellent value for the Lakers.

  319. Nic Batum re-signs with Charlotte, as expected. He didn’t get the full max, which was interesting.

    Ish Smith signed with Detroit for three years. Good for him.

  320. So, everybody psyched to have that horseshit Joakim Noah contract on the books until 2020?

  321. Not at all, but I am going to let it sink in and see what actually occurs tomorrow before making a longer comment.

  322. Hold up.

    Berman says 3/$48M, 3rd year partially guaranteed

    Woj says 4/$70M…

    Broussard says 4/$72M…

    Well, which is it?

    Given what an ace job the press did on the Hornacek hire, I’m more inclined to not believe shit until anything’s official. Y’all can keep jumping out of plate glass windows as if the PTA was disbanded.

    (I may join you jumpers if it is, in fact, 4/$72M.)

  323. I want to do a slow clap for THCJ — who Phil Jackson obviously hates enough to spend all his offseason $ trolling. Derrick Rose, 4 years for Noah, Eric Gordon, and then Austin Rivers as the cherry on top.

    Seriously though —
    Given what Mozgov got, it’d be hard to argue against $17-18 AAV for Noah. I’m done talking about the Lopez deal, but like ruru said, Noah is a better player than Lopez but just comes with far greater risk — ESPECIALLY over a 4 year contract. 3 years guaranteed is not outrageous, but I’m not super happy about the AAV in that case. If Berman is right and the 4th year is nonguaranteed though.. that’d be a very nice trade piece before year 4.

    So Phil’s 1st call was to Courtney Lee – my hope is all this Eric Gordon talk is just to put some pressure on Lee. Sounds like the 2 teams with the greatest interest in Lee are the Knicks and the Kings — the sell could very much be to come and play for a little less in NY on a team that is at least not as much a dumpster fire as the Kings are.

    And Austin Rivers? Meh. We can’t be paying him that much if signing other people, so meh.

  324. That Icarus stuff is good.

    As was Owen’s quip about injured being the new market inefficiency, which we seem to have taken to a new level. Only thing is we don’t seem to be getting any of these crocked players at good rates.

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