Quick Recap: Knicks 111, Raptors 109

Prior to tip off, Carmelo Anthony said this was a “winnable game.” And it certainly was. A few quick points:

* This felt like a team effort. A lot of different players contributed down the stretch. Lance Thomas, Jose Calderon, Robin Lopez, ‘Melo, etc. I liked the feel of it.

* New York appeared to be pulling away when they took a 98-93 lead. However they let Toronto back into the game. Also they got the benefit of a controversial call late in the game. Both things are very un-Knicky. Usually those things don’t go in our favor.

* Nice interview from ESPN with Galloway. It appears he’s got a great head on his shoulders and a fantastic ability to improve through hard work and motivation. Tonight he had 15 points on 10 shots. Going forward it may not be that Calderon deserves to lose his job, but that Galloway is just too good to pass up. Fish needs to find more than 27 minutes a night for Langston, period. (And if he doesn’t can I start the chant for 6th man award?)

Liked it? Take a second to support Mike Kurylo on Patreon!

Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

135 thoughts to “Quick Recap: Knicks 111, Raptors 109”

  1. Was there anything wrong with Porzingis that caused him to not play in the fourth quarter? I mean I know he didn’t shoot well but he hustled and idk, I really think he’s gotta be out there.

  2. It’s useless to try to understand or make sense of Fisher’s lineups and substitution patterns. Just go with the flow and hope in the end it somehow leads to a win like tonight.

  3. On the Melo non call, fuck the Raptors. They got every whistle tonight and Melo was hacked a few mins earlier on a shot attempt

  4. Yeah, Fisher seemed to be pushing all the right buttons for once. And somehow decided that this would be the game where everybody (including Early and Amundson) played.

    We’ll be tired on second game of a back to back, but so will Charlotte. Afflalo should be back tomorrow, and the one plus of KP being so cold tonight is that he’ll be relatively well-rested.

  5. Lance Thomas had 17 points on 7 shots and played big on both ends in the clutch. And it’s becoming a freakin’ pattern. What?!
    Anyhow, that’s why KrisPKareem wasn’t in much at the end. Hard to complain about IMO.

  6. I can understand not playing Porzingis-he was 3-11 from the field and his offense has not looked particularly developed so far. It’s 8 games into his NBA career-20 minutes on the road sounds pretty fine to me. Now, those 8 minutes he gave to Seraphin-there’s no excuse for that shit.

  7. FIsher makes some puzzling moves at times, but are we blaming the 4 losses to the Hawks, Spurs, Cavs and Bucks on him? I don’t think it was substitutions that lost those games, we just lost to better teams (and somehow John Henson dominated in the 4th quarter of the Bucks game)

    And tonight he pushed all the right buttons to beat a playoff team that’s very tough on their home floor.

  8. I thought Lopez had a very nice game. His blocks and rim/paint protection were particularly important against Lowry/Derozen. They would have taken over otherwise.

  9. I would say thought that when Zing does something special he lifts the whole team, his putback sparked a run at the end of the half. And while +/- may not be much of a stat we were +7 with him out there and I do think he’s worthy of at least getting some burn in the 4th quarter. Also from a mental standpoint I think it’s good to show confidence in him early on. Right now I think we win despite Fisher, rather than bc of him.

  10. @11 ive led the fire fisher bandwagon. But tonight is not the night. Cleanthony even had 5 big points. Fisher lucked into good rotations tonight. Even subbing Porzingis in to get the ft rebound was a good move, he just fumbled it out of bounds.

  11. Tonight was a coaches dream. We beat a divison rival in a nail-biter on their home court, 13 guys contributed, a min+ player that everyone doubted came through, and a precocious rookie was sent an important message..play better or we will win without you. Hail, Fish!

  12. Obviously this is small sample size theater but Galloway and Thomas looked to have really improved since the middle of last season. Is it possible we actually have player development happening here on a Knicks team?

  13. Speaking of Thomas- offensively he was great but I thought he did a really nice job on Derozan down the stretch. He really is a versatile defender.

  14. If fishers substitution patterns were played out in a song it would not sound good and read something like this A-D-C-G-A-F-B-A-G

  15. Lance Thomas is blowin’ up so far this year. I agree with the comments above, his defense has been mostly impressive. The Knicks luck may have finally turned.

  16. Anyone else notice that when KP gets pumped up after a huge putback slam that his face contorts so much that he looks like one of the vampires from Buffy? I love that. It’s like his true self comes out, and it’s a monster.

  17. I think that by the end of the season we will be raving about Cleanthony.

    Who is Lance Thomas?

    Why is Grant looking so bad? He couldn’t even stay on his feet half the time.

    Lopez was terrific.

    Melo, Gallo, Calderon ok.

    A nice road win for us!

  18. Grants not used to playing that fast for as long as he is. He was trying to do too much on the drive and kicks, so he looked like a baby derr, kps poise is yet another freakish factor in his favor. Grant will be fine tonight was a learning curve

  19. Oops, meant to post this here.

    I don’t think it is a coincidence that the two games that Thomas really played well in were also their two biggest wins of the season (he played well in the Milwaukee win, as well, but that really just seemed to be more like a “in the right place at the right time” deal – the Washington win and tonight he just flat out played really well). When that dude is giving you excellent minutes, it changes the complexion of the team completely for the better. It’s really like found money.

  20. Not to cross sports here, but lance Thomas is the knicks version of Brian Noonan with the rangerd, a career 3rd liner who came to ny and stepped his game up. In a 41 game season thry were like 18 and 2 in games he scored, the logic being, if your 3rd line is svoring, you’ll be ok. Same with lance, if he drops 17, than the knicks better win…lol

  21. Lance Thomas and Derrick Williams are killed Raptors early runs with clutch 3 pointers. That may have saved the game right there – I totally saw the Raptors running away with it. So that happened.

  22. What’s funny is that there were so many lucky plays tonight and so many reasons that they should have lost the game, but they didn’t! That is huge! This team doesn’t get lucky breaks! This team takes three pointers up two with less than 24 seconds left on the shot clock! It’s like Jackson is exorcising the ghosts of the shitty Knick teams of the past.

  23. Right, that Cleanthony 3 was sort of huge also. But by then there had been so many back and forths that I was mentally prepared for anything.

    It must be weird defending the Knicks because when Melo isn’t on the floor you’re not really sure who will beat you. It’s kind of a whack a mole offense. If they keep passing and moving (of course hitting shots) they’re going to find a way to score. Maybe it’s fluky, or maybe they’re just feeding off each other.

  24. I’m OK with letting Fisher play people that I and other fans and the press disapprove of. He can’t evaluate players and combinations without seeing them for a few games. My own expectations about KP’s D and rebounding and Lance Thomas overall have been off enough to want Fisher to ignore the pressure.

    That said, I’m eager to see him implement sets designed to get KP the ball down low. If he gets it high and keeps it high I expect good things to happen that will break up the parade of missed 15 footers.

    How long does Galloway have to play like the best player on the team before he starts getting the rep he deserves? What rep does he deserve? How much of a real two-way star is he?

  25. Re: Grant.
    Lowry makes a lot of NBA guards look bad. He’s one of the best in the league.
    Not too worried about Grant. Rookies can be uneven. It’s part of their education.

  26. Man did Thomas play well, especially defensively. He was the only guy effectively guarding the Raptors on the perimeter last night, including even Gallo and Grant. But you just cannot put Kevin Seraphin on the floor. He is like Amar’e without the hyper-efficient scoring. He is a black hole on offense and is out of position on any defensive possession that involves the other team’s players moving around in any way. I am fine sticking Aumndson out there if you’re not feeling OQ for matchup reasons, but please no more Seraphin.

  27. Exactly. In prior years an opposing guard would have banked in a 3 pointer at the buzzer, the refs would have missed an opposing player stepping out of bounds in a crucial moment and one of our layups would have been halfway down and rolled out in excruciating fashion. And we’d be talking about a heartbreaking, agonizing defeat.

    Just seems like a whole new world now.

  28. In the postgame interview Fisher said the following about going 13 deep:

    “We have to that some nights because we’re trying to demand that they play so hard that they can’t play longer than they are playing. Obviously fouls make a difference as well. But we’re also trying to build a team where every guy understands that they matter. The five minutes that Cleanthony played, the five minutes that Lou Amundson played, that makes a difference on a team”

    I kinda get it. Is Melo able to go 100% for 42 minutes? Can Lopez and Porzingis give us 36 each? Calderon? Afflalo? Maybe, but to do that they’ll need to rest (slack off) while they play. It’s an interesting philosophy, what do you think?

  29. It wasn’t just Lowry, Luis Scola was having his way with KP. On the offensive end KP’s shot looked flat, every miss hit the front of the rim, its like he had no legs. Against milwakee he allowed Henson go off down the stretch with KP defending . It was a good adjustment by Fisher to limit his minutes. (Especially on the front end of a back 2 back)

  30. @31 – I don’t understand the hate for Seraphin. He played 8 minutes, went 1-3 from the floor and blocked a shot. On the season he’s played a total of 34 minutes, has 5 rebounds, blocked 4 shots and scored 8 points. I’m not saying I love him. He’s just the third big man off the bench, the 11th man. I’ll take that from someone that’s buried that deep on the bench,

  31. Both the block on derozan and the shot he made were key. For whatever reason the knicks stand around a lot when the ball goes into the post.

  32. We got lucky for a change. Fish pressed the right buttons. Melo had a great quarter before doing some dumb stuff down the stretch. RoLo was a beast. And we have another bullet in the chamber in Afflalo. Good times, good times…

  33. @31 – I don’t understand the hate for Seraphin.

    In the history of the NBA, there have been only 13 guys to play 5000 minutes and average a TS% below .520 with an A/TO below .5. Pretty much all of the others were either defensive specialists like Manute or Biyombo or at least much better rebounders. Like Amar’e, Seraphin is an okay shot blocker but makes a ton of mistakes/failure to hustle plays on defense. Not a fan.

  34. How long does Galloway have to play like the best player on the team before he starts getting the rep he deserves? What rep does he deserve? How much of a real two-way star is he?

    Ummmmm… hopefully after this offseason so we don’t get stuck matching a gigantic offer for him.

    Meanwhile he’s no longer leading the NBA in 3 point percentage. Sir Lance is shooting it at 71.4% from 3. Hear that NBA teams? Gallo is NOT leading the league in 3 point percentage!!!

    Meanwhile – I’m very happy for Lance Thomas. This will almost certainly be the best 2 week stretch of his career, and he deserves every minute of it. 3 teams in 4 years, undrafted out of Duke (even Chris Duhon can get drafted out of Duke), toiled away for 65 games in the D-League, plays his butt off whether in games or in practice, obviously has a great work ethic, and seems like a genuinely good dude. And he’s an NYC guy – born in Brooklyn. This must be a dream come true for him.

    Re: his 3 point shooting — there’s almost no data on this before this year – his career prior to this year had a total of 22 attempts, of which he made 7. He basically never shot a 3 pointer in college or in the D-League. That said – he seems to have a green light to shoot it whenever he wants. I would assume that means that he hits that shot regularly in practice. Maybe it’s for real – not like 71.4%-real but league average real? He becomes a very interesting player at 6’8″ guarding 2 through 4 if he plays with the effort level he’s already know for, and can hit 3’s at a league average rate.

    But yes — I am getting so far ahead of myself.

  35. The unfortunate consequence of everyone calling Langston “Gallo” is that I am forced to relive the Melodrama day in and day out. It’s a major hobgoblin of my little mind…..

    So far this year….

    Gallinari .142 WS/48
    Carmelo .141 WS/48

  36. This team is so new. It’s reasonable to believe they have yet to fully gel. That means a lot of upside.
    To all the folks who use the term Pollyanna with regards to the optimism some have expressed, I ask this question: if at the start of the season, looking at the first 10 games, largely to be played against playoff teams, would you have been pleased to see the Knicks winning 50% of those games? Would you have believed it. And yet, after eight of those games the Knicks have won four…
    They are playing .500 ball with about one-eighth of the season done, and this during a time when the team is still learning about itself.
    A young team, with 11 of the 15 man roster new, figured out how to win against a very good team in their house…and they played a flawed game no less. Grant and KP were off. Melo was hot and cold. But their defense was stout when it had to be, they got enormous help from their bench, Lance hit big free throws down the stretch, and they hit big shots when needed.

    This is a group of guys I can root for. Fisher made good moves. Phil has made some great personnel moves. He saw something in Galloway no one else did. Same for Thomas. The Lopez move was viewed negatively. Grant was a steal. KP looks like the second best pick of the draft.
    Phil deserves kudos

  37. So far this year….

    Gallinari .142 WS/48
    Carmelo .141 WS/48
    Galloway. 221 WS/48

    Our Gallo is the one who isn’t banally above average

  38. @Frank

    If Lance Thomas hits league average from 3 and is locking down dudes 2-4 he’s the exact type of forward you want to play with Carmelo Anthony and moving forward Porzingis. I’ve been very skeptical of this guy, but I’m enjoying every minute of being wrong so far. This is just an easy team to root for overall with guys like Langston and Lance populating the roster. Also helps that I don’t find Melo nearly as reprehensible or at all as many seem to.

    A few things I found weird :
    -I don’t know why Seraphin ever gets minutes next KOQ, especially when DWill played well in the first half. Would much rather play DWill/Lance/KOQ off the bench in the frontcourt at all times

    -KOQ really struggled for most of that game and deserved to be pulled at various points of the 3rd, but then he actually seemed to find his mojo by hitting a couple of shots and coming up with some solid defensive rebounds at which point Fisher set him for Amundson. Thought the timing of that was really weird.

    -Seraphin shouldn’t see the floor until he gets in to NBA shape. I’d much rather see Fisher throw Lou Amundson out there for all of Seraphin’s minutes.

  39. So far this year….

    Gallinari .142 WS/48
    Carmelo .141 WS/48

    Knicks win at Toronto in pretty epic fashion and this is what you’re thinking about because people call Langston “Gallo”? Jesus…….

  40. looking at the leaders in 3pt% I saw this:

    4. Toney Douglas NOP .533

    Grant is great, but man, we’d have the greatest shooting backcourt in NBA history if we’d just kept the faith in TD to DWTDD

  41. Knicks win at Toronto in pretty epic fashion and this is what you’re thinking about because people call Langston “Gallo”? Jesus…….

    I do believe I said it was a hobgoblin. Nasty little creatures….

  42. “I kinda get it. Is Melo able to go 100% for 42 minutes? Can Lopez and Porzingis give us 36 each? Calderon? Afflalo? Maybe, but to do that they’ll need to rest (slack off) while they play. It’s an interesting philosophy, what do you think?”
    I don’t know yet, but tonight could be interesting. Last night, three Charlotte starters played 35 minutes. For the Knicks, Melo at 33 minutes was the only guy who played more than 30. It will be interesting to see which team looks less tired tonight. I find it encouraging that, unlike last year, when the game felt like it might be getting away at the end of the third, Fisher didn’t give into the temptation to rush Melo back in the game and have him play 40 minutes.

  43. It’s crazy that even with the 4-4 start, there are a couple of other games that they had a great shot at winning: at Cleveland and vs Bucks. So this isn’t too far off a 5-3 start against relatively good opposition. They have a more forgiving schedule in December , so maybe they have a chance of finishing the year at or above .500.

    Yesterday was easily Porzingis’ worst game so far. I don’t mind the missed shots as much as the shot location. I wish he could trade some of those mid-range (and at times off-the-drible) for something closer to the basket.

  44. Yesterday was easily Porzingis’ worst game so far. I don’t mind the missed shots as much as the shot location. I wish he could trade some of those mid-range (and at times off-the-drible) for something closer to the basket.

    I was a little concerned by how off the shots were. some of them were waaaaay off. seems like he’s rushing.

  45. I’m not sure why, but Lance Thomas reminds me of Shawn Williams.

    Seraphin should never see the court.

  46. Great win. What I love about this team so far is that the stats are coming from everywhere and from everyone. This isn’t a team where Melo scores 28, our bigs get all the rebounds and our PG gets all the assists. You’re seeing scoring spread around the team. You’re seeing guards rebound. Bigs get assists. Steals and blocks. The team seems to play as a team and they scrap and fight the whole game. We’ve had Melo (of course), Gallo, DWill, Quinn, Calderon, Lance Freaking Thomas, Rolo, etc…all get double digits. The balance between in the defense and offense is good too. Its not like the 54 win team where the offense was ridiculous but the defense sucked. Once the team really gels, Affalo comes back and Fisher gets his rotations down we’re gonna be a tough team to game plan for.

  47. I met Lance Thomas a few times when I was teaching high school in New Jersey, he was a really nice kid, very happy for him. He was teammates with Derrick Caracter, who was ridiculously talented and played briefly for the Lakers , and they actually got knocked out in the state semis despite the huge talent advantage.

  48. im not sure how anyone can be concerned with kps shot 8 games in. he played like 15 mins a game in spain. hes still getting his legs under him, also he hesitates on wide open shots because he wants his teammates to be invilved which is hurting his flow. the kid can shoot, he will shoot 45 percent or better this year. look at the positive spin, even with his shot “off” hes getting to the line, pulling double doubles and rebounding like a demon

  49. Porzingis looked tired yesterday and out-of-whack. He was weak on his jump shots. Also, the front court of Scola and Valanciunas was a good match for Rolo and KP. It was a good challenge. Interestingly, KP was the only one of the four that had a positive +/-.

  50. only 2 players in the nba lead their team in blks rebs and steals, kp and andre drummond, kids gonna be fine

  51. So what are the reasons that Carmelo sucks this year? I need more Carmelo apologism in my life.

  52. So what are the reasons that Carmelo sucks this year? I need more Carmelo apologism in my life.

    Let me see if I can oblige, THCJ:

    1)Still recovering from injury, needs to get his legs back to get proper elevation on jumper and/or to drive better to hoop.

    2)He’s old, the injury has forever robbed the necessary spring from his legs, and we’re trapped with an albatross of a contract that will doom us forever, despite having cheap assets around him.

    3)Somewhere in between those two narratives?

  53. So what are the reasons that Carmelo sucks this year? I need more Carmelo apologism in my life.

    Yawn

  54. Seriously, the “Melo needs to get his legs back” disclaimer is starting to wear thin. There’s been a whole preseason and 1/10 of a regular season now, so that’s enough of the “Melo needs to get his legs back” bullshit. The legs ought to be back by now. How long does this dude need to “get his legs back,” like a half a season?

  55. So what are the reasons that Carmelo sucks this year? I need more Carmelo apologism in my life.

    He’s underrated. Your model of thinking is just flawed. #sarcasm

  56. THCJ trolling notwithstanding, it feels great to not be a laughingstock this year (so far).

    Nets are an atrocity, which unfortunately may lead to Boston being amazing in a few years with some lottery luck.

    And the Kings. Wow. Check this out: http://thebiglead.com/2015/11/11/demarcus-cousins-cursed-out-george-karl-sacramento-kings/

    Short version – DMC cursed out Karl in front of the whole team. Karl walked away. GM Divac came in and asked the players if they thought Karl should be fired. Players were like WHAT?!?

    Here’s a great part too:

    During the players-only meeting, the team’s 2013 lottery pick, Ben McLemore, spoke up. He said he was frustrated with his role, and he didn’t even know what his role was. Teammates responded: “Your role is to make 3-pointers and defend. That’s everyone’s role on this team except DeMarcus and Rajon.”

    Wow. Meanwhile the Knicks are all singing kumbaya.

  57. @ 60 yeah. Funny a dude 20 years old has no legs on his shots and it’s cool. But a 31 year old off of knee surgery, playing 10 more mins a game is having issues getting his legs under him is wearing thin. Sound logic

  58. Knicks are 4-4 with young talent that looks good and THCJ has to make some annoyingly stupid and pointless remark about Melo’s shot being off. Seriously just stop being a Knicks fan if that’s where your focus is right now. Unreal.

    @63 – Don’t use logic like that

  59. @ 60 yeah. Funny a dude 20 years old has no legs on his shots and it’s cool. But a 31 year old off of knee surgery, playing 10 more mins a game is having issues getting his legs under him is wearing thin. Sound logic

    Is one of these things not more concerning than the other…?

  60. His shooting percentage is down this year, but his assists are up compared to his season averages. everything else is about the same, except that he’s not playing quite as many minutes a game and his turnover % is lower than usual. So that brings the question: Is eight games a long enough stretch to conclude someone is a worse shooter than before? Honestly, I doubt it’s long enough, particularly since shooting ability changes with age slower than other things. On the other hand, if you thought Carmelo sucked for his whole career, then he clearly still sucks. Personally, I think he’s a better than average NBA player and is letting the team around him do more than he used to and I am OK with that.

  61. I would like them both to shoot 100%. I’m just not complaining about dumb shit 8 games into the season.

    I was just pointing out the idiocy of the comment.

    Sorry Lavor :(

  62. Melo’s not “having his legs” hasn’t stopped him from posting career highs (or near career highs) so far this year in defensive rebounds/36, total rebounds/36, assists/36, steals/36, blocks/36, DRB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, BLK%, and a career low in defensive rating (at 104, his DRTG this year is lower than ‘defensive stopper” Shumpert put up in any year but his rookie year). In addition, his turnover rate of 8.3% is 25% lower than his historically elite 11.1%. His usage rate is also at or near a career low and his WS48 is .141 which, while not great, is pretty good. But he’s shot terribly so far, so let’s all talk about how much he sucks. By the way, he’s also shot 91.7% on foul shots, but let’s all trash him for taking the technical foul shots.

  63. Knicks are 4-4 with young talent that looks good and THCJ has to make some annoyingly stupid and pointless remark about Melo’s shot being off. Seriously just stop being a Knicks fan if that’s where your focus is right now. Unreal.

    It’s not pointless when 37.5% of your committed salary next year goes to that player whose shot looks terrible. It’s hard to be excited about Galloway, Porzingis, Grant and O’Quinn when your team has no chance at signing Kevin Durant, Al Horford, Hassan Whiteside, Mike Conley, Nic Batum, or any of the UFA on the market after this season. Oh, and then in 2017, the possibility of signing Drummond or any of the other free agents from that class. It should frustrate you as much as it does me, if you’re so optimistic about their development.

  64. Lmao. Are u a fuxking fortune teller? How do you know who the Knicks are signing?

    Drummond is not meaning Detroit and Durant is probably not leaving OKC.

    Everyone else is second tier anyway. The problem is not having a pick this year

  65. No it doesn’t frustrate me at all because you’re delusional if you think marquee free agents are going to line up to sign with the Knicks without Melo because we have Galloway, Porzingis, Grant and KOQ. I would pay money to watch the Knicks try to sell Durant, Horford, Whiteside (why do we need a center right now?), Conley or Batum (lol) on coming here to play with that core. Drummond isn’t hitting free agency in 2017 but keep dreaming. Are you Jim Buss? Is there some desperate need that we need to sign stars?

    Amazing for somebody who talks about patience and the long game you’ve all of a sudden shifted the debate to “OMG the Knicks can’t get starzzzzzzzzzzzz” because Melo.

  66. Melo’s not “having his legs” hasn’t stopped him from posting career highs (or near career highs) so far this year in defensive rebounds/36, total rebounds/36, assists/36, steals/36, blocks/36, DRB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, BLK%, and a career low in defensive rating (at 104, his DRTG this year is lower than ‘defensive stopper” Shumpert put up in any year but his rookie year). In addition, his turnover rate of 8.3% is 25% lower than his historically elite 11.1%. His usage rate is also at or near a career low and his WS48 is .141 which, while not great, is pretty good. But he’s shot terribly so far, so let’s all talk about how much he sucks. By the way, he’s also shot 91.7% on foul shots, but let’s all trash him for taking the technical foul shots.

    http://tinypic.com/r/f3ajja/9

    Yes. Let’s talk about his shooting, because it’s important.

  67. @69 – I’ve gotta take issue with you here. Your entire argument is about salary, not quality. Would Melo be OK if he was making $1M? If so, it’s a cost-to-value thing with you and that’s flat artificial. It’s not Melo’s fault he gets paid what he gets paid, it’s the Knicks fault. As for his play, it’s better than I expected coming off of knee surgery. The odds of ANY free agents moving is very low because of Bird rights.

    Judge a player by what he brings to the table, not by his value compared to his contract.

    I’m excited about Porzingis, Galloway, Grant and O’Quinn because they could be the core of a championship team down the road.

  68. Amazing for somebody who talks about patience and the long game you’ve all of a sudden shifted the debate to “OMG the Knicks can’t get starzzzzzzzzzzzz” because Melo.

    Considering that Carmelo and Bargnani fleeced the team of picks, this is the window right now. Right this very moment. And yeah, if you think Carmelo is going to attract some Superfriends because he’s Carmelo, I guess you’d have to explain why Tyson Chandler left the sinking ship when he could have stayed and waited for the Melo Recruitment Plan that literally cannot happen because his contract is too big.

  69. @69 – I’ve gotta take issue with you here. Your entire argument is about salary, not quality. Would Melo be OK if he was making $1M? If so, it’s a cost-to-value thing with you and that’s flat artificial. It’s not Melo’s fault he gets paid what he gets paid, it’s the Knicks fault. As for his play, it’s better than I expected coming off of knee surgery. The odds of ANY free agents moving is very low because of Bird rights.

    I do not judge Carmelo for taking every dollar offered to him. I blame Phil Jackson, the rest of the front office, and any delusional fan who defends that albatross as if he’s earning it in production.
    And the NTC! The freaking NTC!

    Judge a player by what he brings to the table, not by his value compared to his contract.

    Uh, what? What does this even mean? That’s exactly the point of value, ESPECIALLY in a game where you have limited resources. He brings to the table both (1) middling production and (2) a huge burden to the salary cap. The two things are inseparable. You cannot have his production without his cost of production.

  70. Funny a dude 20 years old has no legs on his shots and it’s cool. But a 31 year old off of knee surgery, playing 10 more mins a game is having issues getting his legs under him is wearing thin. Sound logic

    I don’t even know what it is you’re trying to say. If you’re trying to suggest that I shouldn’t criticize Melo because a 20-year old rookie is also not hitting his shots, than I don’t really know how to respond to you. Let me know when you think it’s okay to start saying that “Melo needs to get his legs back” is no longer a valid excuse. Game 20? Game 40? Game 60?

  71. First 8 games of 2014: 45 ts. Rest of season .548 ts
    First 8 games of 2013: 522 ts. Rest of season: 566
    First 8 games of 2012: 529. Rest of season: 564

    He looks fine. He’s playing with a starting unit with zero penetration and close to zero playmaking, which isn’t going to help anyone’s efficiency, including KP, who is almost exclusively assisted by Carmelo among starting players.

    His passing has been very good, his quickness is there, as we’ve seen him easily blow by Leonard, GA, and basically everyone who’s guarded him, and the elevation on his jumper looks good.

    His peripherals are very solid, but the Knicks need to get more production into the starting lineup because eventually Melo is going to try to take over things more frequently.

  72. Considering that Carmelo and Bargnani fleeced the team of picks, this is the window right now. Right this very moment. And yeah, if you think Carmelo is going to attract some Superfriends because he’s Carmelo, I guess you’d have to explain why Tyson Chandler left the sinking ship when he could have stayed and waited for the Melo Recruitment Plan that literally cannot happen because his contract is too big.

    Again why do I care about recruiting star free agents if Melo is here or not? That’s not relevant to establishing a solid foundation. Have another summer like we just did where you add a couple of pieces that can grow with the young guys and you’re moving in the exact right direction with all of your draft picks moving forward and the cap set to jump again the following summer.

    If Melo hates everything about this year and wants to be traded after the season that works too. I don’t really see what the issue is except your constant need to be negative about every fucking thing that ever happens.

    Dude you’re still cying about the assets we gave up in the Melo deal? Jesus get the fuck over it.

  73. Re: Carmelo’s shot. The “does he have his legs under him” question is pretty irrelevant. Sometimes players get stuck in shooting slumps. At this point, I’m inclined to trust Melo will revert to somewhere near his career average TS% of .546, over an 8 game sample size of .497.

  74. The Knicks could also easily find takers for Afflalo and DWill if they opt in and they want to create cap space. There’s about 15 different things the Knicks could do to create max space over the next 2 summers that are being ignored because it’s way more fun to bitch about anything related to Melo.

  75. With the cap increase, the Knicks could have enough cap room to sign some of the guys THCJ pointed out, though. Like Drummond in 2017, for example. Even without cap-room gymnastics. Or am I reading the cap status incorrectly?

  76. He looks fine. He’s playing with a starting unit with zero penetration and close to zero playmaking, which isn’t going to help anyone’s efficiency, including KP, who is almost exclusively assisted by Carmelo among starting players.

    His passing has been very good, his quickness is there, as we’ve seen him easily blow by Leonard, GA, and basically everyone who’s guarded him, and the elevation on his jumper looks good.

    His peripherals are very solid, but the Knicks need to get more production into the starting lineup because eventually Melo is going to try to take over things more frequently.

    Thank you! This is what I was looking for, not complaints about my question. This is 100% pure gold from ruruland, exactly the kind of apologist prognostication that makes my ears hum. Thank you, ruru.

  77. Re: Carmelo’s shot. The “does he have his legs under him” question is pretty irrelevant. Sometimes players get stuck in shooting slumps. At this point, I’m inclined to trust Melo will revert to somewhere near his career average TS% of .546, over an 8 game sample size of .497.

    This is basically what I’m saying. “Melo needs to get his legs back” is becoming a cliche here, as if this somehow isn’t the “real” Melo. He’s played badly, and hopefully soon he will start to play better. In the meantime I’m enjoying watching some of the other guys. But man, criticize Mr. Mega Max and some of the fanbois here get very, very testy.

  78. Outside of Durant, basically every potential max guy is a second tier player. There just isn’t much draft or FA value next off-season.

  79. Yeah but Carmelo isn’t a second tier player and we’re giving him vet max money with AN NTC

    How is this not seen as a problem? The NTC makes it one of the worst contracts in the NBA even if his first two years are above-average-but-nothing-special Melo that we’ve seen over the course of his career. Think about signing a 30 year old player just coming off a knee injury who was never that great in the first place to a mega-max AND THEN giving him an NTC. It’s madness and it is seriously going to hamper our roster construction in the next few years as opposed to if we just let him walk.

    That being said, it’s over and done with now, and there’s not much we can do about it, so I’m just trying to enjoy the ride. But if you think the Melo signing was in any way a good idea, you’re just deluding yourself.

  80. Outside of Durant, basically every potential max guy is a second tier player. There just isn’t much draft or FA value next off-season.

    I don’t think Hassan Whiteside is a second tier player.

    http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players/298-hassan-whiteside

    Those are video game numbers. But I agree otherwise. Unless LeBron murders the entire Cleveland metro area again, there aren’t many players of note hitting the open market.

  81. We’d all do Melo’s contract differently if we could. However, he will get his shot back and the other parts of his game have been fine so far. The team is performing better than expected. Let’s enjoy it!

  82. Yeah I think the proper moral to draw is “fuck it, we’re stuck with him, might as well hope for the best and try to enjoy it.”

  83. Melo gave indication that he would be taking a much bigger discount and I agree that compared to other max contracts (not necessarily vet max’s) his is not good. It was foolish of him to take such a small “discount.”

    And yeah, Whiteside is amazing. I’d take him over Drummond every time, especially if he learns tocurb his fouling, which Drummond has.

    But it looks like the Knicks have a seriously formidable frontcourt moving forward.

    The Knicks need a guard that can create. And even if Melo signed for 10 million less than he could, I’m not sure a Mike Conley is going to do the trick (though he’s obviously a massive upgrade over Calderon).

  84. @72 — and your point in posting the link to the “tiny pic” was to demonstrate that, playing on one knee last year, Melo’s TS% was about the same as those other high usage stiffs Russell Westbrook and Dwyane Wade? OK, he must really suck. Funny how, when Melo is shooting well, you want to point out all the other stuff that he doesn’t do well but, when he’s shooting poorly, you want to ignore all of the other stuff that he has improved on this year –including defense. And you can’t argue that the other stuff doesn’t matter because, despite really bad shooting so far, he’s got a pretty good rating in one of those “all-inclusive” stats that takes all the other stuff into account — i.e., WS48.

  85. Yeah, there’s a very obvious improvement in Melo’s mobility from last year. The first step quickness is there and as good as it’s been in a few years, same with his jumpshot elevation.

  86. @72 — and your point in posting the link to the “tiny pic” was to demonstrate that, playing on one knee last year, Melo’s TS% was about the same as those other high usage stiffs Russell Westbrook and Dwyane Wade? OK, he must really suck. Funny how, when Melo is shooting well, you want to point out all the other stuff that he doesn’t do well but, when he’s shooting poorly, you want to ignore all of the other stuff that he has improved on this year –including defense. And you can’t argue that the other stuff doesn’t matter because, despite really bad shooting so far, he’s got a pretty good rating in one of those “all-inclusive” stats that takes all the other stuff into account — i.e., WS48.

    bruh is Carmelo the only player in the NBA who plays through injuries?

  87. Also the tinypic is invalid. The title includes something like “min 58 games”

    So how is 15-16 there after 8 games?

  88. The Knicks need a guard that can create. And even if Melo signed for 10 million less than he could, I’m not sure a Mike Conley is going to do the trick (though he’s obviously a massive upgrade over Calderon).

    To be fair, I would be an upgrade over Calderon and I have literally never driven with my left hand in a basketball game in my entire life.

  89. Thank you! This is what I was looking for, not complaints about my question. This is 100% pure gold from ruruland, exactly the kind of apologist prognostication that makes my ears hum. Thank you, ruru.

    Yep as opposed to your trolling/ whoa is me analysis

  90. Yeah I think the proper moral to draw is “fuck it, we’re stuck with him, might as well hope for the best and try to enjoy it.”

    Agreed. This is crying over spilled milk. I’m still upset the Knicks traded Nene, Marcus Camby and Mark Jackson to the Denver Nuggets for Antonio McDyess, Frank Williams and a 2003 2nd round draft pick. What good’s that doing me?

  91. I can’t wait til Melo drops 45 tonight. What will the debate be then? I can’t wait

    You are really not the world’s most mature person.

  92. Whoever starts, I hope Kemba looks up and finds Galloway attached to him like a curse most of the game. He’ll still get his points probably, but I think it will at least tire him out and make him uncomfortable.

  93. @thcj, with the rise in the cap the knicks can easily afford a max, so steep up your troll game

  94. You guys let cocktail joules get away with blatant falsehoods? Like the cap is only gonna rise for 29 teams and not the knicks, they’ll have more than enough to sigh a max player, and guys in the league already wanna play with kp, so let’s see if he can draw a free agent, I’m betting he can

  95. @100

    Yes. Me wondering about the next complaint about Melo, is so immature.

    He will play well tonight, then get criticized. Isn’t that the cycle here? Sorry for wondering aloud. I guess Jowles troll jobs are mature, sorry. I’ll go.

  96. let’s look at some players we could get next season though, because I think there’s at least a few pretty good players:

    Kent Bazemore
    Al Horford
    Nic Batum
    Tyler Hansbrough
    Harrison Barnes (RFA)
    Andre Drummond (RFA)
    Jordan Clarkson (RFA)
    Deng
    Conley
    Hassan Whiteside
    Hassan Whiteside
    Hassan Whiteside
    Hassan Whiteside
    Kevin Durant

    Even assuming all the rfas are a no-go, a Melo-less universe where we end up signing some combination of those guys with some of our cap and waiting for 2017 (where you can get some pretty good players) or just blowing all of our cap next year both look like better teams than the Melo-verse we currently inhabit.

    Again, this is all crying over spilled milk, and we best enjoy the next few years as best we can, because we’re stuck with the decisions the FO made, but you get the picture. Things would’ve been better; but, FWIW, I think Phil has done a solid job outside of the Chandler trade and the mega-max Melo signing–like Cronin has said though, I think the MMM signing was a condition of employment as the Knicks FO head, so I’m not sure if I even can really blame him for that. So he’s done at least a decent job in making this team watchable again, despite MMM and the horror of Jose Calderon (which he’s entirely to blame for).

    I figure it’s time to stop talking about what might have been since we have real basketball to talk about though. Save all the counterfactuals for the offseason when we really need it!

  97. So, straying off subject, how do we all feel about tonight’s game?

    Are Jeremy Lin and Kemba going to run circles around Calderon? Is KP going to play more minutes? How will Afflalo fit in?

  98. I’m trying to avoid any sort o Melo discussion.

    It’s worthless.

    I’m just hoping that his contract finish soon enough and we can move on for good.

  99. phil made a suicide pick at 4 and came out smelling like rises, fleeced jerian grant from atl, and got rolo and dwill on bargain deals relative to their production, oh and he made sure the knicks gave galloway a long look last season

  100. kemba wont gove calderon as much trouble as lowry teague mcw etc.. because he doesnt have the size they do. rolo will contain jefferson to 15 or less and lin will get his but the knicks will win by 8. thomas will have a high efficiency double fifs again, kp will have a bpunce back night and melo will have a season high in reb and assts

  101. @msa if the knicks arent in the pkayoffs at the asb melos demanding a trade to either chi, cle or the dark horse, phoenix

  102. I’m just hoping that his contract finish soon enough and we can move on for good.

    The 2019-2020 season is right around the corner.

  103. I jump on this site after getting home from work hoping to read posts about that great road win last night against a 5-2 team that hadn’t lost at home, about Langston Galloway and Lance Thomas, and its all about Melo sux, shitty contract, NTC, blah fuking blah.

    We’ve got a rookie from Latvia who may develop into something truly special, another rookie PG who if he develops his shot could also be special, and at the same time Phil has completely remade the Knicks roster into a team that plays hard and is really fun and easy to root for.

    And still it’s all about Melo…SMH

  104. @95 – OK, we’ll assume that Melo had two healthy knees last year. So, Melo, on two healthy knees, had about the same TS% as those high usage stiffs Dwyane Wade and Russell Westbrook. Great point! He must really suck.

  105. Didn’t the joker have a line in the dark night referencing how he needs batman? Feel like Jowles vs Ruru is like batman vs joker. Melo is the city of gotham.

  106. Maybe we need to set up a rule, that if you say, imply, infer, bitch, moan or whine about Melo and his contract that you are forced to watch Nets-Sixers games nonstop with toothpicks keeping your eyelids open so that you must watch that horror show. Just sayin…

  107. I blame cocktail joules from drawing attention away from Mr Third In the Whole Goddamn NBA in made up nonsense stat wins produced Langston Galloway. So fuck you, Lebron. Try harder, Russel Westbrook. Say your prayers and take your vitamins, Kevin Durant, and maybe one day you’ll put up Langston numbers

  108. We’ve got a rookie from Latvia who may develop into something truly special, another rookie PG who if he develops his shot could also be special, and at the same time Phil has completely remade the Knicks roster into a team that plays hard and is really fun and easy to root for.

    And still it’s all about Melo…SMH

    it’s like doing a luxury bathroom remodel and everything looks great and wonderful but your super-expensive toilet pukes water all over your floor half the time and has a cracked foundation and you’re just staring at it like, “please stop doing that, everything else is so nice”

    that’s how it is to me

    ¯\_(?)_/¯

  109. I’m just hoping that his contract finish soon enough and we can move on for good.

    The 2019-2020 season is right around the corner.

    That got a lol from me. Melo is Joe Johnson 2.0. He’s a little better but that’s the neighborhood. And it sucks, because this team would really have some potential going forward if he weren’t on it.

  110. Feel kinda bad for Earley. He’s played hard and looks improved. The Knicks should keep him active just to take end of quarter half court shots.
    :-)

  111. I think the Melo salary v production criticism is fair, but dated.
    I think someone making that kind of cash catching shit from fans when he shoots poorly is fair and typical.
    I think ruru’s comments about Melo and his salary and the starting guard play also is fair and surprising, given ruru sees Melo as a friend he backs.
    I disagree that his elevation and explosiveness looks fine. He’s not yet the same guy. It’s one thing to get past someone when you know where you are going; it’s another entirely to react to either help defenders or in defense. In both those areas Melo struggles right now.
    I do believe Melo will get his shot back and revert to past shooting form.
    I believe because he actually has a deep team around him his efficiency may in fact improve.
    I think he has not tried to take over games. He’s trusting his team.
    I think he is doing other things on the court that helps the team.

  112. Two camps to the ‘Melo wars’. I’m firmly planted on the side of those who think Melo hinders, rather than helps this team. That’s easy to see.

    What seems quite strange is that everybody takes it out on Melo and provides this and that stat to show Melo is not a real superstar. Like more evidence is needed. We have known for 12+ years that Melo is a gifted scorer and little else. A great player, not a franchise player, not someone you can successfully build around because the holes in his game won’t allow it.

    So, why aren’t the people addressing the Melo shortcomings never, ever, criticizing Phil Jackson and the front office for the many blunders? If Melo’s contract is bad, what about Fisher, Calderon? What about the money given to bench player, eternally mediocre Afflalo? What about giving money to Lopez like he is Tyson Chandler?

    Yes, we are doomed to mediocrity for the next few years. There is no way to significantly improve the team next year (the added cap space does not mean much, given that all teams will have it).

    Our ceiling for the next 3 years is the Mike Woodson Atlanta Hawks.

    Just lay off Carmelo’s case. He is not guilty of anything. He has given us his best: lots of inefficient scoring at max money. That’s what he is capable of – it’s not like he was LeBron in Denver and now has become a lazy bastard with the Knicks. Get off his back and climb on Phil Jackson’s. If you guys have the balls, of course!

  113. “Yes, we are doomed to mediocrity for the next few years. There is no way to significantly improve the team next year (the added cap space does not mean much, given that all teams will have it).

    Our ceiling for the next 3 years is the Mike Woodson Atlanta Hawks.”

    That’s it, guys, stop watching now. The genius has spoken.

  114. We’ve got a rookie from Latvia who may develop into something truly special, another rookie PG who if he develops his shot could also be special, and at the same time Phil has completely remade the Knicks roster into a team that plays hard and is really fun and easy to root for.

    And still it’s all about Melo…SMH

    it’s like doing a luxury bathroom remodel and everything looks great and wonderful but your super-expensive toilet pukes water all over your floor half the time and has a cracked foundation and you’re just staring at it like, “please stop doing that, everything else is so nice”

    that’s how it is to me

    Boy, talk about your tortured metaphors. Is your real name Dennis Miller?

  115. Last night’s win was good defense, good 3-point shooting and Carmelo toasting a weak defender. Hope they don’t rely on the 3 tonight because that strategy usually backfires. Wonder if Afflalo will debut.

  116. Boy, talk about your tortured metaphors. Is your real name Dennis Miller?

    oh j.c. back up off me

  117. Joe Johnson’s career high in WS48 is very similar to Melo’s career avg WS48, but yeah, they’re basically the same player. Johnson has a career .93 WS/48.

    Melo is 20th in the league in WS since he became a Knick.

    That would make him one of the better players in the league, no?
    http://bit.ly/1GXoYca

  118. i love how thcj ignores how i eviscerated his melos contract screws us out of a max player arguement, actually all you guys seem to be ignoring my posts..lol back to lurk mode, but if anything thcj is joker and ruru is batman

  119. Melo is 20th in the league in WS since he became a Knick.

    That would make him one of the better players in the league, no?

    No. That means (depending, obviously, on how accurately win score reflects actual value) that he was one of the better players in the league. Melo was obviously not one of the 20 best players in the league last season, and he hasn’t been one in the early part of this season.

  120. Jowles — I must say that I’m really disappointed in you. I’ve given you several opportunities but you’ve been so intent on coming up the snarky retort and the tortured metaphor that you’ve missed the most obvious (and probably most legitimate) response to the “he doesn’t have his legs back yet” crowd — if it takes so long to come back from the surgery maybe he should have had it a month or two earlier…

  121. i dont get the melo hate, dude put up 24 6reb and 3 ass injured on a team where he was the only player being guarded and that doesnt make him one of the top players in the league?? how many guys with a supporting cast outperformed that? im guessing its a short list

  122. “So, why aren’t the people addressing the Melo shortcomings never, ever, criticizing Phil Jackson and the front office for the many blunders?”

    I don’t hate Melo. I just hate his contract and Jim Dolan for foisting it on a fanbase that deserves and knows better. If you sweated through the Isiah/Eddy Curry era it’s just really hard to stomach.

    But it’s not really personal for me. I just want to spend the money elsewhere.

Comments are closed.