Knicks @ Pistons: 2nd 2020-21 Preseason Game Thread

Game 2 of the preseason!

Thibs, annoyingly, is sticking with his starting lineup from the first game.

Here’s to hoping that we see Quickley tonight!

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479 thoughts to “Knicks @ Pistons: 2nd 2020-21 Preseason Game Thread”

  1. I guess Q4 of a Jets game is a good time to start preparing my eggplant parm for the start of the Knicks game.

  2. Well I’m going to put Tencent Sports to the test and try to stream basketball on my one hour bus commute to work.

  3. Well, after watching the latest Jets/Adam Gase debacle, I’m looking forward to a game that is competitive after the first few minutes.

  4. One observation not noted about the first pre-season game. Alec Burks set the tone defensively. You didn’t see a lot written about it but if you watch the start of the game and focus on his play, you can tell that he’s the type of player that won’t get the stats but really helps a team win.

  5. if this is the starting lineup we’re gonna see a shit ton of zone like the pistons are trying now

  6. I think Detroit didn’t like losing to NY two nights ago. They seem to be playing harder tonight

  7. I don’t think I have ever seen an easier bucket than Griffin just got. It’s not Mase and Oak in there.

    And it appears Burks really can shoot. Refreshing

  8. The Jets were up 3-0 and clearly coasting to a victory and then out of no where Seattle wins????
    What crap. Clearly the Jets won big…
    ;)

  9. Dear DSJ,

    You can’t dribbled the ball back over mid court once you’ve crossed.
    Love, Frank

  10. thibs needs to learn how to shout it’s a fucking zone thru a mask, they can’t read his veins

  11. Will Mitch ever be able to play a legitimate amount of minutes in his NBA career?

    Or will fouls be the ceiling that limits his game?

  12. Frank’s shooting stroke has looked good in these two games.

    Yeah, Bey destroyed RJ.

    Quickley seems to be running the PG spot, if anyone is.

  13. Wally just proudly announced how his daughter committed to UK . . . all the pieces are starting to fall into place. The CAAntucky Conspiracy is tightening its grasp on the Knicks.

  14. Thibs is the new coach, a proven commodity, and yet somehow some way Julius Randle is still doing the same shit.

  15. Ugly half of basketball.

    RJ has been pretty good cutting to the basket.

    DSJr looked awful.

    Obi looked awful.

    Quickley played but I don’t think you can conclude much. His floater did not look good and I think he went to it too soon.

    Edit: The starting lineup didn’t look like they were on the same page. Not sure if it’s the zone, the lack of a set offense, or both

  16. this is the kind of thing we get when we don’t get good pg play and elf only played 8 minutes….

  17. The game is surprisingly close. Detroit must really suck.

    Basically. Have they scored in the second half?

  18. Randle has been really aggressive running the court with the ball after rebounds. I do like that

  19. The Knicks have cut into the lead with good defense.

    They’ve played some good defense, but the Pistons also look terrible on offense. It’s basically Fizdale’s “Kill what you catch” offense.

  20. Grant is wide open and can’t hit the broadside of the barn and yet the Pistons just keep settling for outside shots. It’s hilarious.

  21. Casey’s offensive scheme – “Eh, you figure it out. Maybe get the ball to Blake if you can.”

  22. BigBlueAL:
    Hayes looks pretty bad, this might really turn out to be an awful draft.

    He made a good read and pass to Grant. Grant just decided to make RJ’s 3pt shot look good.

  23. Noel fouls at the same clip as Mitch. We’ll need both – just for the minutes.

  24. He made a good read and pass to Grant. Grant just decided to make RJ’s 3pt shot look good.

    Yeah, his shooting has been awful, but Hayes has shown a lot of smoothness. He reminds me of Fox a lot.

  25. Derrick Rose would be our best PG if he was still on the Knicks. That’s some sad sh$t right there.

  26. Update: Our defense isn’t good. Just Noel’s defense that’s good. That might be enough tho

  27. Update: Our defense isn’t good. Just Noel’s defense that’s good. That might be enough tho

    Yeah, Wally’s slobbering over how good the defense is is so annoying. He obviously had his talking points written before the game and he’s going to stick with them, consarnit.

  28. @BC I mean, most smart people would be aware enough to not be an outright propaganda robot, right? Or at least have the wherewithal to say something occasionally interesting to spice up the mindless homerism.

  29. How stupid is it to stick with your starters for the first ten minutes of the third quarter in a fucking preseason game?

  30. djphan:
    sooooo.. after starting 0-6 …. rj’s been 13-19 including 12-15 from 2…..

    I wouldn’t get too excited, 6/7 tonight have been assisted buckets. We wouldn’t want Brandon Clarke would we?

  31. 6/7 tonight have been assisted buckets. We wouldn’t want Brandon Clarke would we?

    for rj yea having more assisted shots would be awesome….. he was at 35% last year….

  32. I think RJ should just go left for the rest of his career. That’s the one thing that really works for him.

    That was a truly terrible foul by Mitch. The one before wasn’t great either

  33. djphan: for rj yea having more assisted shots would be awesome….. he was at 35% last year….

    Got it. Only bad when Clarke does it

  34. I was yelling at RJ to pass to Mitch but I guess he can just go dunk it himself if he wants

    Mitch screened off for that dunk really well. Really bad foul by Mitch there, though.

  35. Brian Cronin:
    How stupid is it to stick with your starters for the first ten minutes of the third quarter in a fucking preseason game?

    Yeah Thibs wants to win these preseason games a little too much

  36. Maybe he’s frustrated he’s not starting and people refuse to pass him the ball wide open under the basket?

  37. Guys, Mitchell Robinson isn’t going to be a Knick in 18 months. He’s had a collection of bench bigs in front of him for three seasons and he’s yet to grab the starting job by the horns. Tonight he has 5 fouls in 12 minutes? In year 3?

    This is very similar to my experience with Sam Darnold. The guy (Mitch) is just making mistakes that should be extinct from his game.

  38. This is probably the only season in NBA history where playing your starters a lot in the pre-season makes sense. Especially for a team with a ton of new players.

  39. i think we caught a huge break with our pre-season schedule…

    gives thibs and the players time to adjust…to reality…as of now i’m still sticking to the over with a total of 27 wins…

    hard to speak on mitch…what makes him really good (reaction time), makes him really not so good at times…

  40. ethsurken:
    Maybe he’s frustrated he’s not starting and people refuse to pass him the ball wide open under the basket?

    I get it…you don’t start because you foul too much, so get mad and foul even more…

  41. DRed:
    This is probably the only season in NBA history where playing your starters a lot in the pre-season makes sense.Especially for a team with a ton of new players.

    Agree

  42. Got it. Only bad when Clarke does it

    you’re misunderstanding…. why do you think there’s bias here? i never claimed assisted buckets were inherently and always bad… when you’re at 82% it means something about the growth in your game….

    rj is at the other extreme and has efficiency problems… he needs more efficiency so he should relinquish some of those unassisted opportunities to get more efficient…

    does that make sense or you still confused?

  43. This is probably the only season in NBA history where playing your starters a lot in the pre-season makes sense. Especially for a team with a ton of new players.

    Sticking with the starters for the first ten minutes of the third quarter would be a bad idea in the regular season, let alone a preseason game.

  44. Hoping we can get Randle to trust Burks to make shots by the end of preseason. Otherwise, he’ll keep spinning into the middle of the defense.

  45. DRed:
    This is probably the only season in NBA history where playing your starters a lot in the pre-season makes sense.Especially for a team with a ton of new players.

    I have no problem with the rotation so far except that I love seeing the kids play

  46. I mean he’s a human being and has been disrespected every step of the way by this organization. Also it’s 12 minutes of a preseason game.

  47. ethsurken:
    I mean he’s a human being and has been disrespected every step of the way by this organization. Also it’s 12 minutes of a preseason game.

    No, it’s pretty much a consistent theme for 2+ years

  48. Knox and Toppin are currently unplayable defensively, and the long corner three is a weakness good teams are going to exploit all season.

    In other words, we’re going to be really really bad.

  49. Mitch has gotten the benefit of the doubt more than other Knick kids. I’ve been on the Mitch bandwagon from the start but it’s time for him to mature.

  50. i don’t think knox is getting significant minutes this year so i wouldn’t really worry about what his impact will be….

  51. Knox is one of the worst players I’ve ever seen my god

  52. Knox might be the first player to lose rotation play. Can’t shoot, looks lost, like he doesn’t belong.

  53. The Pistons have clearly game planned for Plumlee to be sort of a point center. I don’t know why. It seems quite foolish.

  54. Yes, the disrespect and mistreatment by the organization has been constant. The best way to handle a young player who didn’t play college is to make him play in fear of making mistakes, then when he plays well leave him on the bench in favor of Taj Gibson and Bobby Portis.

    Also funny how fouling is never mentioned as a major problem for Nerlens… you would think a veteran would learn. He must be trash. Can’t be a starter when you average 5 fouls per 36.

  55. Noel fouls at the same clip as Mitch. We’ll need both – just for the minutes.

    Right, but that’s my issue. Noel is on a one-year deal. Robinson is on year three of a four year deal. If they’re both going to have to play (and they will), why are they starting Noel if they’re so similar? It seems way too much like short-term thinking from a coach where that was specifically what we were worried about from him. If you’re looking short term, Noel starting is fine. Noel is a good player. I’m a big Noel fan. But why would you be thinking short term?

  56. We mention Noel’s fouling constantly. It’s just that Mitch currently has 5 fouls in 18 min. Noel has 1.

    I’ll also say Noel just seems to be in the right place more often than Mitch even if it doesn’t show up in the boxscore.

  57. Not talking about this board, mostly talking about the team/media. And maybe the people overreacting to a few minutes of a preseason vs multiple seasons.

  58. We simply cannot afford to give Knox and DSJ roster spots this whole season if they are really this bad. I’d much rather see them jettisoned and open up more minutes for Quickly, Frank, Obi and maybe some of the 2 way guys and even Iggy.

    These guys are not NBA players.

  59. ethsurken:
    Not talking about this board, talking about the team/media.

    No need to talk about them. This is where truth is spoken.

    It’ll be interesting to see how Thibs closes this out. Does Randle go iso? Who runs point? Am curious.

  60. The other issue with Mitch is he tends to foul in dumb situations. He fouled 2x last game while standing at half court or beyond and at least 1x tonight in the painted area on the opposite side of the court.

  61. Mitch is still the best player on the team, and he should play more than Noel, but his fouling in this one was ridiculous. I can live with dumb fouls where you’re trying for a steal or a block but he was just fouling guys because he was frustrated

  62. It’s gonna be a lot of randle isos this session since we have zero point guards who can do three of the following four things: pass, dribble, penetrate, and shoot

  63. Randle at the point, Knox at SG, Toppin at SF, Nerlens at PF and Mitch at C. The East is big, man.

  64. Randle: is 4-11

    Wally: “Randle has been a bright spot on offense, scoring when he wants”

  65. i think it’s smart of casey to practice trying to tank a lead like this. you need to play the preseason like it’s the real thing. alas he has a tough opponent.

  66. RJ had a nice game. The offense was a trainwreck, but we played our only competent point guard 17 minutes so it’s not surprising.

  67. Love to see IQ drawing triple teams during garbage time for some reason, because this is preseason

  68. RJ is good. The rest of the team is trash right now.

    Knox in particular needs to get memory holed for a good long time. I know Kentucky East is deeply invested in his success, but this is a good chance for Thibs to put his money where his mouth is when it comes to the idea that young players can develop without having to actually appear in games.

  69. so i guess the lone bright spot was rj…. way less forced shots than the first game and got a lot of good opps just hustling and getting down the court…. 16-22 from 2pt territory after going 0-6 but 16/28 is still pretty decent.. mid range shots have been falling…. the free throws looked ok… seems to be going for a quicker and more compact motion … probably to try and think less and have less moving parts… looked for the open guy also although some loose passes at times… lack of defensive #s is the only blemish but if rj is shooting anywhere like this then it’s gonna mean incredible things….

    obi was concerning…. it’s preseason but there shouldn’t be any games where 90% of his shots are 3s… if it is then he’s going to be a bust…. had some issues finishing at the rim but he was trying to do it himself… he’s going to need to lean on pg play to get him buckets this year….

  70. RJ & Burks played well

    Noel was strong on defense

    Mitch’s numbers look good, but his defense wasn’t really there

  71. RJ & Burks played well

    Whoops, forgot about Burks. Competent on offense but doesn’t grind possessions to a halt the way Morris could sometimes last season. Don’t mind him at all, especially since he should be flippable at the deadline with that contract. But we desperately need both a point guard and people who can shoot from deep.

  72. Noel/Mitch will be fine. There will be nights were one or both of them do stupid shit but we don’t have to worry about C if they’re healthy. Elfrid is okay at PG, and after that it’s a shit show. Is Myles Powell still on the roster? We should toss him out there for 10 minutes next game instead of Dennis. I’m not sure about the rest of the roster or what Thibs is going to do.

  73. A frustrating game. Pre-season but a preview of what’s to come.

    DSJr showing he doesn’t work as a point guard and the Knicks still need one. Knox looks completely lost. They may not be in the Thibs 8-man rotation.

  74. If you offered Smith, Knox and Frank to any GM in the league for the last 3 players on their bench, every single one of them would say no

  75. Tonight was a prime example about why the Knicks need a lead point guard desperately. Where is Jeremy Lin these days?

  76. who knows what opportunities were present to do something about the point guard position on our team…sure seemed like there were some options available for acquiring an established point guard this off-season…

    this isn’t just like a new occurrence either, i just don’t get it, never will understand our organization’s disregard for point guard play…

  77. RJ Barrett played well and that’s actually all that matters this season. It would bring my heart nothing but joy to add one of Cade Cunningham and Evan Mobley to him. Keep giving RJ the ball and keep letting Ronnie Fieg design the jerseys.

  78. Bondy says that Spellman is a candidate to be waived if we keep MKG. At this point, I’d rather just waive Knox or DSJ, but anything to hang onto my latest irrational fringe player crush Iggy is fine by me…

  79. this might be a good time to check in on the draft…. my top 10 so far:

    1. cade cunningham – early favorite for#1 but his 2p% is dipping which is coinciding with some questions about his athletic ability.. probably nothing but we’ll see.. he got tons of comp from the next two guys who have minor questions of their own.. he’s a good athlete but it seems like people were expecting lebron and he was never that.. he’s still very good..

    2. evan mobley – starting to put it all together after a slow start and is showing why he’s probably the next great big man in this league… incredibly skinny and some slightly low reb #s… but he’s got great length… nice shooting touch… decent moves on the block… and he passes very well too… best big since KAT..

    3. jalen suggs – he’s probably had the most impressive games but you can’t really beat franchise wing or C…. that’s the only reason why he’s #3.. the outside shot seems questionable from the box score but looks fine to my eye.. plays with great pace… the handle is really good as he changes speeds well and is low and controlled.. aggressive attacking the paint and finishes well when challenged.. btw.. these 3 guys are consensus #1 types and all probably would have gone #1 in the last draft..

    4. jalen johnson – there’s a gap between the top 3 and the 2nd jalen who might wind up being the 3rd jalen when it’s all said and done.. johnson is good too tho and it’s impressive that he’s been so good without a jumper cuz it’s bad right now… his passiing and ball handling probably slightly worse than advertised also.. he’s no ben simmons but he might be lamar odom..

    5. jalen green – he’s in the gleague so we may not see much of him.. impressive in eybl and was #2 rated behind cade.. there’s questions about his shot selection but his game is supposed to be complete like cade’s with questionable shot selection but better athlete… i don’t think he can break top 3 without showing…

    6. moses moody – best shooter… but not necessarily the best jumper… he shoots incredibly well but combines it with good athleticism and a nose for the ball… good on his drives and stays low and protects the ball but he’s not exploding anywhere and he’s not exactly creating for others either… he’s a bit like nesmith without nesmith struggling his freshman year….

    7. james bouknight – top returning player in college… other mocks have him rated really low now but a combination of disappointing freshmen and an impressive start should have him rising on boards soon… great finishing with either hand… elevates well and has some hangtime.. great change of pace handling… shoots well off the dribble and off the catch.. great scoring instincts all around…

    8. brandon boston – primary reason for kentucky’s struggle so far… he’s disappointed and it’s because of his struggles attacking the rim and settling for jumpers which he’s not hitting at all either… but the secondary markers are there.. he was never a great passer but he has great length and current struggles aside supposed to have a great jumper… looks like it’s there (.846 ft%)… might be another knox but i think he’s prob better…

    9. jonathan kuminga – like jalen green he’s in the gleague so might not see much from him… he’s rated around here based purely off hearsay… measured short 6ft 6 instead of the orginal 6ft 8.. supposed to be the best athlete in the draft but nobody’s really seen all that much from him… a bit of a bully ball type from reports so could be overrated…

    10. Scottie Barnes – this guy is purely eye test atm and the eye test folks will orgasm once they see this guy.. a draymond clone but a better athlete… extremely impressive vs florida this weekend… he’s either going to need to reb or shoot a LOT better so he’s not there yet but it’s hard to look at this guy and think he won’t make it in the right environment…

  80. I wanna know how Wally even got this job i think he might be the worst announcer in the league. I don’t even know what to say about Kevin Knox except how did we chose him #8.Enough playing dsj already.What happened to Jarret harper he and quickley and powell should be playing to see if any are least ok playing the point..Man i can only dream that Spike Lee promises Giannis he will make him a movie star if he signs with the Knicks this offseason.. Keep up the great work everyone…

  81. I wanna know how Wally even got this job i think he might be the worst announcer in the league.

    Him getting a gig as the in-studio analyst was normal enough. He replaced the similarly terrible Kelly Tripucka. Regional in-studio analysts are almost always terrible. The puzzling thing was who looked at Wally in the studio and decided to transition him into not only being an analyst in the booth but clearly being the heir apparent to Clyde as the lead analyst. It’s beyond baffling.

    We went from Marv Albert and John Andariese to Mike Breen and Clyde Frazier and we just got far too spoiled, I guess.

  82. As I wrote that, I guess it does make a bit of sense. Wally has clearly shown a willingness to basically say whatever MSG tells him to say. He’s an ultimate company man, so I guess that has appeal to that asshole Dolan.

  83. Gotta put a team of shooters around RJ and the team’s offense simply can’t be RJ getting whatever backwash Payton/Randle decide to give him. I’m already just completely exhausted by those guys, particularly Randle, and the season hasn’t even started yet.

    I’m actually kind of exhausted by Thibs already, too, but that’s probably mostly a derivative of Randle and Payton. It’s almost impossible to believe we’re still being put through those two being the main drivers of the offense — even in meaningless “we talking about preseason” games.

    The Knicks are one of the worst shooting teams you’ll ever see and yet they’re dead-set insistent on adding MIchael Kidd-Gilchrist — MIchael Kidd-Gilchrist!!! — to the mix.

    Long season ahead. Only thing that really matters is the development of RJ and Toppin and Mitch (and to a lesser degree, Frank. I’ve written off Knox and DSJ.) They don’t have the right coach for it, I fear.

  84. It’s not just that Wally is such a shameless company man, but that he comes across as so slow-witted while calling the games. There was a sequence last night where he and Breen started talking about how the Knicks had four of their youngest players on the court at the moment. Wally began naming them, then stopped after the third because he had clearly blanked on the fourth guy. Breen eventually jumped in to fill the dead air, and then Wally blurted out, Quickley’s name like he was proud for finally remembering it.

    Calling a game live is an incredibly hard thing to do, and I’m sure Wally is a lot brighter than he comes across as doing a job he’s not particularly good at. But surely MSG can find a sycophant who can actually think on his feet under those tough circumstances?

  85. Clyde was one of the greatest players in association history and he virtually never references himself as a player; Wally was a jabronie journeyman and references himself as a player four times a game, minimum.

    “Randle is again one of the Knicks bright spots.” “As everyone knows, the Knicks have had a great group of development coaches the last few years.” Yeah, sure Wally.

  86. Loved what we’ve seen from RJ other than that first quarter the other night – not even so much the scoring, although it does really seem like he’s getting better separation this year so far — but the passing. Good cut-up of his game last night from the Knicks Wall twitter account here .

    Had a few really high level passes here – specifically the one to Burks in the corner and the one to the weak side above the break 3 to Frank who unfortunately missed it.

    I think by 10 games in it will be clear that RJ is probably our best (or at least most logical) primary ballhandler. Year 2 RJ as primary ballhandler probably has no hope of being better than the #20 offense, but you get him reps and see whether it’s plausible for the future. So if you’re going to do that, you have to surround him with defense and shooting. Frank, RJ, Burks/Bullock, Obi, and Mitch/Noel just makes so much sense, or maybe replace Burks/Bullock with Rivers when he’s ready just to get a little more ballhandling on the floor. Then let Payton and Randle play buddyball against 2nd units.

    btw as far as I’m concerned, we can shoot DSJ and Knox directly into the sun. I am sure they are nice people and that they work very hard, but the NBA will not notice. In terms of the rotation, Thibs played 12 guys last night and that does not include Rivers, who seems likely to have a rotation spot. So 3 dudes that played last night will not be in what is probably going to be a 10 man rotation. I hope those 3 dudes are Bullock (who I like but is sort of duplicative with Burks, who is probably better), DSJ, and Knox.

  87. I don’t see any way in which DSJ becomes a useful player – he just does not think the game at a high level and that is an impossible obstacle for a player who can only play lead guard. And Knox – he might be useful, but he should concentrate on doing a couple things well as opposed to being a jack of all trades on offense. Concentrate on spacing the floor as a stretch 4, and sure, attack a closeout if the opportunity presents itself. But any sort of actual ballhandling with reads should be something he works on in practice (preseason games are ok i guess!).

    re: the DSJ thing – that is why I think we need to play Frank more — he is at least an above average defender who can plausibly and capably guard 3 positions well. he has a good feel for the game on the offensive end. He just has so many more paths to success than DSJ – ie. if he can shoot 35% from 3 which is not a goal that is out of reach, he can at least be a Moe Harkless-type player. they should put him in situations to succeed and not just let him rot on the bench so they can continue doing futile resuscitation on DSJ’s trade value.

  88. 1. RJ looks pretty good. Obviously, he’ll have to knock down the 3 more often to become a star player, but I think we can give him more than 2 pre season games to determine where he’s at now with that. I still think he’s going to be very good in 3-4 years.

    2. I’m starting to think the problem with Robinson is basketball IQ. Some of the people on Twitter suggesting we trade him as part of a package for young star player while his value is still very high may not be as crazy as I thought.

    3. Knox still looks out of control at times and not very good

    4. Frank hit a couple of 3s in the first 2 games, but he looks more or less the same on offense. I’m not seeing a lot of progress, but he should be playing ahead of Dsjr. He was being too aggressive defensively last night, but he does that sometimes.

    5. DSjr looks hopeless to me. He’s still not hitting shots, brings nothing else to the table that encourages you to be patient, and is not a high IQ player. Just take a 2nd rounder or whatever you can get for him and clear out the logjam a little. I’d rather see Quickley play.

    6. For Obi to become a good NBA player, he’s going to have to hit the NBA 3. NBA teams are going to take away some of the things he did well in college and he’s not a defender or high level rebuonder.

    7. It’s sad that we are still so bad that Randle still feels compelled to try to do too much at times and it impacts his game negatively. He would be better on a good team with a smaller role.

    8. I think we should keep Nerlens until we figure out if Robinson is ever going to learn how to play basketball beyond his natural athletic gifts. We have a few other vets we may be able to flip later.

    9. We still need a PG. Bring back Derrick Rose or Jeremy Lin. Hell, bring back Raymond Felton or Chris Duhon. OK, maybe not Chris Duhon. lol

  89. They need a PG who can hit catch and shoot threes off RJ and Obi kicks. The roster now is a mismatched disaster.

  90. Last post re: RJ – he is taking the shots he should be taking. Through the 2 games:

    33 field goal attempts
    14 in the restricted area (9/14)
    6 in the paint (4/6)
    4 mid range
    9 three pointers

    So 23/33 are at the rim or from 3, only 4 aren’t rim/3 or at least in the paint.
    And I don’t know where to find “potential assists” ie. passes to shooters that could have resulted in an assist but the player bricked the shot – but my feeling is there are a fair amount of hidden good passes there.

  91. With Frank’s form and improvement I think he hits 35-37 from 3. And his D is good and he moves the ball. Thibs already said Quickly is an NBA shooter.

    I’d like to see a lineup with RJ is primary play maker of:
    Frank
    Quickly / Burks
    RJ
    Randle (if you have to) or Toppin
    Noel / Mitch

  92. Yeah, Quickley is the perfect catch and shoot three guy off kicks. I sometimes if Thibodeau has even the first conception of something like this. His personnel ideas and ideas generally just seem way behind the times. Completely unimaginative, at least on the offensive end. I’d have much rather seen someone like Atkinson. Thibs desperately trying to drive grindy marginal wins with this mismatched collection of dreck while at the same time appearing for all the world as if he wants to get DSJ “right” (TM) is about as butt ugly as it gets.

  93. Thibs probably thinks DSJr is a hopeless cause also, but you can always hope he looks good for awhile and then trade him. I’d like to see Quickley. On this team he’ll get his chance eventually, but we have to be realistic. There’s no way he’s ready to be an NBA player now with no summer league and no real camp. We have a glut and have to loosen it up. They should pretty much take anything they can get for DSjr assuming they can get anything unless they are seeing something in the gym I’m not seeing in games.

    (for the record Damyean Dotson had a good first game shooting for the Cavs, not that we need shooting lol)

  94. His personnel ideas and ideas generally just seem way behind the times. Completely unimaginative, at least on the offensive end.

    I think this is much more a personnel issue than a scheme issue. Guys kept getting open looks — way more than Fizdale or even Miller managed to generate — but barely anyone on this team can shoot from outside. Payton’s ability to create offense is limited because defenses shut off his penetration and dare him to shoot. RJ probably isn’t ready to be the primary creator on this offense, but he’s also, sadly, the closest thing we have to someone who can do it. Until the talent is better, there’s only so much any coach can do. Remember what trash the D’Antoni offense looked like when our best point guard was Chris Duhon, and how much better it looked with even a mediocre playmaker like Ray Felton?

  95. Alan Hahn brought Wally on board because they are both Long Island meatheads, and I guess Hahn worshipped him in high school or something.

    The in-studio gig was harmless enough, but God does he suck as a color man.

    MSG is the complete opposite of a meritocracy, and I’m afraid that the FO is run exactly the same way (Kentucky, CAA). As such, the Knicks probably have the least amount of talent in the whole league. It’s laughable that they thought they didn’t needs another rookie (33rd pick in the draft).

  96. Hahn’s a guy who I liked a whole lot more when he was a beat writer than when he became a TV analyst. It’s not impossible to go inside the house like that and still seem sharp — just look at somebody like jack Curry on YES — but Hahn has very much drunk the Kool-Aid.

  97. Where I’m seeing the rotation with the regular season somehow rapidly approaching:

    Starters look locked in. I don’t like Noel over Mitch any more than anybody else but can’t say Mitch has done anything through two games to change Thibs’ mind. Randle over Obi was the only other mild point of contention but it seems obvious the team still sees Randle as the closest thing they have to a star. Obi looked very rookie-ish through two games: some nice flashes but it looks like the game is still moving very fast for him. Lots of plays where it looks like he has real tunnel vision. Not surprising given the jump in level of play with no summer league or adaptation period. RJ, Burks and Elfrid were really the three points of competence last night.

    Obi and Mitch clearly round out the front court. Knox has been absolutely abysmal so far and I don’t see Thibs buying it much longer; he will either have a coronary or cut him from the rotation. Bullock was super bricky last night but he’s got a lock on the backup wing role by default right now. That makes 8.

    The guard situation is where it gets really interesting. DSJ seemed to have the early lead for backup PG but has looked way too much like himself so far. Frank was painful with the fouling last night but DSJ’s incompetence may keep him in the running at PG. He maybe has some role off the ball also but that strikes me as pretty matchup dependent. Quickley seems to be at the bottom of that group right now. Rivers seems unlikely to be ready for a full role on opening night but I suspect has the inside track on a large role eventually. My guess is Rivers is the 3rd guard eventually with the rest of the guys scrapping it out for about half a role as the 10th guy (when everyone is healthy which may be a fleeting situation this year), but the only thing I’m confident about with this rotation battle is that it will drive a lot of knickerblogger traffic this season.

  98. Alan: It’s not just that Wally is such a shameless company man, but that he comes across as so slow-witted while calling the games.

    This is really the one-two punch for me with Wally. The company man thing is annoying as hell to me and obviously a lot of others here but I can understand that Knickerbloggers are a very particular subset of Knicks fans and that there are a lot of people who probably enjoy having an analyst expounding at length about how promising this all is while they’re down 12 in the 2nd quarter to the freaking Pistons. Certainly if you tune in to other broadcasts on league pass regularly that’s pretty much the default model for local analysts and I assume on some level that must reflect what people want. I actually think Wally is only a medium-level homer by those standards, we’re just used to Clyde who calls it just about as straight as any local analyst out there.

    It’s the incompetence it’s paired with that really grates on me though. I can’t remember the last time he added something novel the broadcast, heck, he doesn’t seem to have a strong grasp of even pretty obvious stuff (for example during the review of Mitch’s flagrant last night he spent the whole time talking about his intention which anybody who regularly watches the NBA could tell you isn’t part of the standard for a flagrant foul), he focuses almost exclusively on scoring even in his homerism, and, to my mind at least, he’s not particularly charismatic or charming which is an important part of the role (and obviously the area Clyde really excels). He’s just not good at it.

  99. The most depressing thing about last night’s game was Kevin Knox. As bad as Smith Jr. is, at least we didn’t actually draft him. Knox does not do anything well; if he could make 3’s at say a 38% clip, or played lock down D or got a ton of rebounds, he’d be minimally useful.

    As it is, he’s a total negative when he’s on the court, and I don’t know what Thibs is going to do with him. What a complete waste of a lottery pick.

  100. Wally had a really bad point last night where he was talking about how ‘easy’ it is to get 18 points a game- something like “throw up a few at the rim, grab a couple offensive rebounds, make sure you sell a couple fouls, and then a few points the refs give you that could go either way” – if that isn’t a great parody of Melo/Randle/pointz then I dunno… what a terrible color commentator. He also goes back to his playing days ad nauseam- I think they were talking about minutes allocation or something and he goes, “are you kidding me, I would be ITCHING to get back to playing real games, when they call your number, you better be ready to put up some points” Blech

  101. It’s hard to have any optimism for Thibs on the offensive end when he’s obviously letting Randle free lance. He’s back to Fizdale levels of aimless bullshit.

  102. wetbandit:
    Wally had a really bad point last night where he was talking about how ‘easy’ it is to get 18 points a game- something like “throw up a few at the rim, grab a couple offensive rebounds, make sure you sell a couple fouls, and then a few points the refs give you that could go either way” – if that isn’t a great parody of Melo/Randle/pointz then I dunno… what a terrible color commentator. He also goes back to his playing days ad nauseum- I think they were talking about minutes allocation or something and he goes, “are you kidding me, I would be ITCHING to get back to playing real games, when they call your number, you better be ready to put up some points” Blech

    He was just trying to brag and it was ridiculous. I have literally zero interest in his “war stories” or his “perspective” as a mediocre ex-player.

  103. It’s hard to have any optimism for Thibs on the offensive end when he’s obviously letting Randle free lance. He’s back to Fizdale levels of aimless bullshit.

    Again, I think this underestimates just how bad the offensive talent on the roster is. Watching Randle dribble and spin around like the world’s worst Magic Johnson impersonator makes me want to throw a brick at the TV, but we have so few players on this team who can create offense for themselves or others that some of those Randle isos sadly become our best option on a given possession.

  104. Who will be in the 9 man rotation?

    It seems clear that the starters from the first 2 games are in: Payton, RJ, Burks, Randle & Noel
    It seems clear that two others are in: Mitch because we need the 2nd rim protector and Obi.
    That’s makes 7. Who are the last 2? Pick 2 from: Frank, Knox, DSJr, Rivers, Bullock, IQ, Spellman, MKG and Iggy.

    Not easy to pick 2, is it? I’m thinking it comes down to Rivers and Quickly. Everyone else is on the bench.

  105. Alan: Again, I think this underestimates just how bad the offensive talent on the roster is. Watching Randle dribble and spin around like the world’s worst Magic Johnson impersonator makes me want to throw a brick at the TV, but we have so few players on this team who can create offense for themselves or others that some of those Randle isos sadly become our best option on a given possession.

    I’m with you on this one.

    Julius Randle sucks as a Knick but if he’s not spinning and sinning his way to a > 20% USG rate then that gives the defense more resources to key in on RJ Barrett or it means somebody else has to create offense. We just don’t have the guns to do anything but ask Julius Randle to work above what he’s qualified to do. Watching him spin into turnovers and bad shots while ignoring better plays to be made is frustrating, but we don’t have any alternatives unless we wanna turn RJ Barrett into peak James Harden.

  106. I’m fine with Wally and his goofy suits doing halftime stuff but he is just brutal during the games.

    On to Cleveland to see how we match up against a different terrible team. But a very big one.

  107. I think our rotation will look like:

    PG: Payton, Smith Jr/Rivers
    SG: Burks, Ntilikina/Rivers
    SF: Barrett, Knox/Bullock
    PF: Randle, Toppin
    C: Noel, Robinson

    My brain tells me Knox, Bullock, and Smith Jr will rotate in and out of the rotation with injuries and just good/bad play. Bullock looks cooked so far, though. I don’t think he’s guaranteed minutes at all.

  108. Julius Randle sucks as a Knick but if he’s not spinning and sinning his way to a > 20% USG rate then that gives the defense more resources to key in on RJ Barrett or it means somebody else has to create offense. We just don’t have the guns to do anything but ask Julius Randle to work above what he’s qualified to do. Watching him spin into turnovers and bad shots while ignoring better plays to be made is frustrating, but we don’t have any alternatives unless we wanna turn RJ Barrett into peak James Harden.

    This is exactly what we should do – give RJ the ball with some spacing and see what he can do. It is not too early for that.

    Meanwhile I love that the guy that was picked right after Obi Toppin (Deni) was 6/6 from the field and 3/3 from 3 point range yesterday. And he had Raul Neto at PG, not exactly CP3. *crying emoji*

    I am pretty nervous about Toppin. The defense looks not good, and he can’t dribble the ball AT ALL. He is going to be a turnover machine once teams figure that out.

  109. I don’t want to overreact to two games, but since it’s really 2 games + 2/3 years when it comes to Frank/Knox/DSJ it sure seems like we can safely say the “core” is exactly three players: RJ, Mitch, and Toppin. Knox looks sub G-League level out there, Frank is the same player he was as a rookie, and while DSJ can look the part more than the other two it doesn’t look like it’ll ever come together.

    I don’t think Spellman, Pinson, or Harper are serious prospects but at a certain point you have to give them a look over this group, both on the merits and because they’re at least as likely to be core pieces.

    I hate watching Randle do his thing as much as the next guy, but I’m in the “there aren’t great alternatives” camp. You have to use every possession you have one or the other, and it’s not like you can run PNR with Mitch or something else we’d prefer every time. To be sure we could probably stand to rein him in to an extent, I just think people wouldn’t be thrilled with the alternatives either. They’d probably be Alec Burks ISOs or something.

  110. I’m not a huge Randle fan, but I don’t think Randle sucks as much as all of you do.

    Randle has flaws but it’s clear he’s the best player on the team. His flaws, dribbling himself into turn-overs, not passing to the open man and trying to be an iso-hero are bad but I think, if he’s not the featured scorer, those flaws are mitigated. The Knicks need someone that can demand the ball on this team. The problem is, there is no such player on the Knicks. Who does he defer to in the starting 5? The only possibility is RJ but he has to start nailing jumpers consistently and remember that he’s 20.

    As for Randle’s game, I liked the hustle and defense in the first two preseason games. He was racing down the floor in transition, something we didn’t see last year. He has great low-post moves and is one of the few Knicks that can break down a defense. Once he gains trust and learns to drive and kick when the defense collapses, the team will take a big leap forward.

  111. For all you guys complaining about Wally, it could be worse. Ever listen to Yankees on the radio for the last 20 years?

  112. I don’t have any particular love for Thibs as an offensive coach but I agree it’s harsh to be too critical at this point. This team looks like it has the absolute worst offensive talent in the league to me and besides that they’ve had like a week of practices in which Thibs was always going to be heavily focused on defense. If Thibs can pull the 25th ranked offense out of this group it would be an absolute miracle. So yeah, the offense looked awful in these two games and I’d definitely prefer a coach who could at least make us more aesthetically pleasing on that end, but no coach was ever going to make this a good offense.

  113. For all you guys complaining about Wally, it could be worse. Ever listen to Yankees on the radio for the last 20 years?

    There’s an endearing quality to John Sterling’s badness. Maybe that’s just conditioning after all these years but I don’t think Wally is ever capable of reaching endearing badness. He is just very dryly awful at this.

  114. The Glass Half Rebuilt:
    I think our rotation will look like:

    PG: Payton, Smith Jr/Rivers
    SG: Burks, Ntilikina/Rivers
    SF: Barrett, Knox/Bullock
    PF: Randle, Toppin
    C: Noel, Robinson

    My brain tells me Knox, Bullock, and Smith Jr will rotate in and out of the rotation with injuries and just good/bad play. Bullock looks cooked so far, though. I don’t think he’s guaranteed minutes at all.

    Interesting. I agree with you for the most part, but I would take Knox, Frank and Smith Jr out of the list and replace with Quickly. IQ can shoot the 3 and otherwise plays the same roll as them. Frank has the other upside, perimeter defense. But IQ’s scouting report is that on-ball defense is a strength.

    I want to see if Quickly can run an offense.

  115. Frank: This is exactly what we should do – give RJ the ball with some spacing and see what he can do. It is not too early for that.

    I would be all for this, except we don’t have anywhere near enough shooting to make this tenable. Quickley, Ntilikina, Barrett, Knox, and Noel/Robinson could be a fun line-up and they might even pressure ball handlers pretty well, but I don’t know how you rely on that for a long enough period of time to make Julius Randle less harmful.

  116. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: Interesting. I agree with you for the most part, but I would take Knox, Frank and Smith Jr out of the list and replace with Quickly.IQ can shoot the 3 and otherwise plays the same roll as them.Frank has the other upside, perimeter defense. But IQ’s scouting report is that on-ball defense is a strength.

    I want to see if Quickly can run an offense.

    I have IQ out of the rotation until after the trade deadline because you don’t have to know what you have in him for sure until 2022. The Knicks have to make decisions on Knox, Smith Jr, and Ntilikina this season so I think they get an organizational bump up in the rotation.

  117. And honestly I’d like to see Quickley in the G League before he plays in the pros. That probably could have saved Knox and Ntilikina from the Knicks’ chopping block.

  118. Sly: For all you guys complaining about Wally, it could be worse. Ever listen to Yankees on the radio for the last 20 years?

    I’ve been listening to the Yankees on radio for the past 55 years. Is Sterling more over the top than Rizzuto?
    I don’t hate Wally as a play-by-play color guy because he’s a homer, I think he’s a bad color guy. He takes too long to make a point and it takes away from play-by-play I want. He starts talking. There’s a play. Who was that that poked away the ball? Who dove on the floor? His number was blocked… Wally’s still explaining that old-play.

    That’s the beauty of Clyde. His little phrases say it all in one short sentence: “Matador defense by Knox on that play”, “Obi-1, the precocious neophyte, hooping and swooping.” “Mitchell Robinson hacking and whacking.”

  119. The Glass Half Rebuilt: The Knicks have to make decisions on Knox, Smith Jr, and Ntilikina this season so I think they get an organizational bump up in the rotation.

    I think they are all already on life support.

    And I agree with you about sending Quickly to the G-leauge. It makes sense, if only to get experience running the point. He was a point guard before he played at KU but was forced to slide over. Giving him a month with the ball against pro talent is smart.

  120. I think the rotation is the five starters, plus Mitch, Obi, Rivers, Quickley, and either Frank or Bullock, depending on what the team needs on a given night. Thibs has traditionally played a “9.5”-man rotation, where 9 guys play regularly and one plays sometimes depending on matchup. Here, it feels more like it could be 9 and 3/4.

  121. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: I’ve been listening to the Yankees on radio for the past 55 years.Is Sterling more over the top than Rizzuto?
    I don’t hate Wally as a play-by-play color guy because he’s a homer, I think he’s a bad color guy.He takes too long to make a point and it takes away from play-by-play I want.He starts talking. There’s a play. Who was that that poked away the ball? Who dove on the floor? His number was blocked… Wally’s still explaining that old-play.

    That’s the beauty of Clyde.His little phrases say it all in one short sentence: “Matador defense by Knox on that play”,“Obi-1, the precocious neophyte, hooping and swooping.” “Mitchell Robinson hacking and whacking.”

    Rizzuto was my favorite. Uncle phil. I used to chase him from TV to Radio and back to TV, where he did the middle 3 innings for ABC Radio. Phil Rizzuto was genuine, his calls were not scripted, and home runs were not hi and far everytime. An for entertainment sake, check the recording of Phil’s HOF speech. Priceless.

    Favorite Clyde:

    “Charles Smith, stumblin, bumblin, regains his composure, spinning, winning!”

  122. There’s a passage in Bill Bradley’s book “Life on the Run” where he’s describing what all his teammates are doing on a long flight or bus ride. Some are smoking or drinking or playing cards; Clyde is nose-deep in a book about improving your vocabulary. Clearly, the studying paid off!

  123. i feel bad for defensive coaches around the league. it’s going to be so tough to gameplan for a lineup of payton, burks, rj, randle and noel. nick nurse is gonna wear the steph box and one hoodie when we play. they wouldn’t even have to stick their best defender on burks.

  124. Alan:
    I think the rotation is the five starters, plus Mitch, Obi, Rivers, Quickley, and either Frank or Bullock, depending on what the team needs on a given night. Thibs has traditionally played a “9.5”-man rotation, where 9 guys play regularly and one plays sometimes depending on matchup. Here, it feels more like it could be 9 and 3/4.

    I think Bullock almost has to play as pretty much the only true wing off the bench. RJ might be a decent longshot bet to lead the league in minutes and Burks also seems set to play a lot so that’s not necessarily a huge role but I think that’s close to a necessity against pretty much every team.

    I think the idea of Quickley in the rotation to start the season is probably fanciful. Rookies are bad and rookie PGs are notoriously flighty. More than that he’s just not going to have enough time to win over the coaches given that he’s obviously starting off behind the more veteran guys on the depth chart. By the end of the year, maybe, particularly if there’s a trade to clear up that backcourt logjam but to start the year no way. 9 minutes in the first two (of four total) preseason games does not scream “immediate rotation role”.

  125. John Sterling is dumb, but he’s a legitimately talented announcer…who’s just also dumb. If he were ever fired (and not 104 years old), he’d get a gig on another team pronto. That’s not Wally. Wally is just hot garbage. He’s dumb and a bad announcer. Alan Hahn was a great beat writer who just went completely into the tank for MSG the instant he got hired, but even he’d be a better game analyst than Wally. Wally is so, so bad.

  126. As per the Knick rotations, in two preseason games so far, Thibs has played Quickley seven minutes. I don’t think that bodes well for his rotation status. You might say, “But it’s preseason, Brian, you stupid fucking idiot, minutes don’t necessarily fucking matter!” to which I would reply, “Under many coaches, perhaps not, but I think Thibs is pretty much as advertised. If Quickley was going to be part of the main rotation, he’d be in the main rotation already.”

  127. Well, I’ll take Thibs at his word for now. He said he’d take all the preseason games, and a few regular season games, to sort out his rotation. So, there’s still hope for guys, maybe.

    But yeah, Knox and DSJ are in serious trouble. Frank is like 2/3 on threes so far, but he’s got to shoot more and make at a better clip than in his entire career to date in order to lock down a spot. Rivers waits in the wings to take minutes from Dennis and Frank.

  128. From the comments it looks like half the people hate Randle and half the people think the team is so bad he’s essentially forced to do more than he’s capable of doing which makes him look worse than he is. I’ve been in the latter camp all along and remain there, but it’s not like he’s some high IQ player out there. It’s probably a combination of Randle occasionally doing foolish things on his own and occasionally doing foolish things because his teammates are so inept he feels like he has to.

    Another unrelated thing I noticed was that we seemed to be trying to force some lobs that turned into TOs instead of dunks. I’m not sure if that was bad guard play, but it seemed like Detroit was doing a good job of taking that away and our guards were trying to force it anyway and it turned out badly.

  129. Brian Cronin:
    As per the Knick rotations, in two preseason games so far, Thibs has played Quickley seven minutes. I don’t think that bodes well for his rotation status. You might say, “But it’s preseason, Brian, you stupid fucking idiot, minutes don’t necessarily fucking matter!” to which I would reply, “Under many coaches, perhaps not, but I think Thibs is pretty much as advertised. If Quickley was going to be part of the main rotation, he’d be in the main rotation already.”

    I alluded to this earlier, but this is a unique season in that there was no summer league and a shortened camp. So all the rookies are way less prepared at this stage than usual. We have a lot of guards to evaluate and we know Quickley’s job is secure. So going a little slow with him now while we are trying to figure out the rotation to start the season is not so bad. I think once either Frank, DSJr, or someone else drops out of the rotation and Quickley seems ready for a good look, Thibs is going to give him plenty of opportunities. He seems to love him. I still can’t figure out why we signed Rivers, but it may work out fine because we might be able to flip him for “something” at the deadline given the contract is good.

  130. I’ve been in the latter camp all along and remain there, but it’s not like he’s some high IQ player out there

    the real problem with randle is not that it’s a bad idea to use him as point playmaker like we love to do. it’s that even at his best he’s a bottom 5 nba help defender and not quick enough to have any other defensive role, while on offense he can be efficient but provides zero spacing. you just can’t be that useful in today’s nba with both of those traits, even if you can score and rebound effectively. you are at best an mle type player getting 10-15 mins in competitive playoff series and quite possibly not a useful option at all on the wrong team or against the wrong opponent.

  131. ptmilo:
    I’ve been in the latter camp all along and remain there, but it’s not like he’s some high IQ player out there

    the real problem with randle is not that it’s a bad idea to use him as point playmaker like we love to do.it’s that even at his best he’s a bottom 5 nba help defender and not quick enough to have any other defensive role, while on offense he can be efficient but provides zero spacing.you just can’t be that useful in today’s nba with both of those traits, even if you can score and rebound effectively.you are at best an mle type player getting 10-15 mins in competitive playoff series and quite possibly not a useful option at all on the wrong team or against the wrong opponent.

    I generally agree, but I don’t think I’d be quite as harsh because imo he can still be productive in the right circumstances. Also, even with his flaws he’s still one of our best players. lol (which is another sad story)

    I think we all know (including him) that we drafted Toppin to replace him. I’m way more worried about what I’ve seen from Toppin than I am about allowing Randle to do what he’s doing for another year. It’s really not hurting anything. We’ll either trade him or let him walk long before we are any good and need to use that cap space better.

  132. How many times has Toppin gotten to the roll man in a PnR through two games? Not nearly enough it seems like to me. It’s definitely at least in part a personnel problem because we lack good pick and roll guards and we lack any ability to provide spacing from the 5 position, both of which make it hard to use your PF effectively as a PnR weapon. Still I’d like to see them try to get him some looks going downhill in advantage situations somehow even if the spacing will be cramped because right now it seems like his shots are mainly coming from 3 categories: isos, jumpers, and picking up scraps around the rim.

    The iso stuff is just not going to be productive this early in his career – he really puts his head down when he dribbles and his handle is not that tight. He telegraphs his passes too. He looks like a walking turnover and no shame in that; rookie PF isolating is not a good recipe. The jumper looks okay (meaning visually) for the most part outside of a couple wild 3s that he rushed but hasn’t gone in yet. Obviously we’re just going to have to wait on a decent sample there but I’m not too concerned just yet. The scraps around the rim are nice and he obviously can use his athleticism there but it’s not enough for a guy who needs to make his living on the offensive end.

  133. The offense is gonna look ugly. The players that are here from last year haven’t played together since March and Thibs has had what, 10 days of team practices before the first preseason game? And Thibs has said he wants to work on defense first.

    Patience is going to be important. Both with this current team and with the regime in general. This same team in 2 months will probably play a lot better together but also this team will look different after the trade deadline than it does now and will look different next off season.

    We all say we want a slow rebuild but then when the games start playing we get all up in arms about why isn’t this happening, etc. It takes time.

  134. RJ’s buckets came mostly in the flow of the game last night, he mostly got good looks and converted them. After the slow start in the first game he has looked pretty good.

  135. Yeah, RJ looked competent out there. I want to believe we will all be proved wrong. Would make a huge difference in our outlook.

    Toppin has been disappointing after his first few minutes.

    Quickley honestly looked like a high schooler out there. Doesn’t appear to have the look and feel of an NBA player but whatever, that’s purely gut.

    It’s going to be a real rough ride this season is my other major gut feeling. Especially if Mitch is going to average a foul every three minutes.

    As for Wally, how bad would he be if we had a good team? He isn’t all the way in the Mark Jackson zone but he is close. Clyde just needs to hang on for another 20 years.

  136. Owen:
    Yeah, RJ looked competent out there. I want to believe we will all be proved wrong. Would make a huge difference in our outlook.

    Toppin has been disappointing after his first few minutes.

    Quickley honestly looked like a high schooler out there. Doesn’t appear to have the look and feel of an NBA player but whatever, that’s purely gut.

    It’s going to be a real rough ride this season is my other major gut feeling. Especially if Mitch is going to average a foul every three minutes.

    It’s going to be a bumpy, turbulent ride and most likely the plane is going to crash in a heap of molten wreckage. This team is terrible and the idea that one of its first round picks should already be destined for the G League is almost impossible to fathom.

    You can’t draft Frank at 8, Knox at 9, and trade a top 20 asset drafted 4 for pennies on the dollar. When you do, you get … this. Still a million billion miles away and the Payton/Randle dominated time between now and the destination is numbing, excruciating, and exhausting.

  137. A few thoughts:

    – RJs offense has come almost exclusively on the fast break, cuts to the basket, and driving against an already unbalanced defense. This is good, but he’s not ready to take Randle’s role as primary creator

    – Ntilikina has not been the PG except a handful of possessions before Thibs brings in another player. Quickley got the PG nod over him when they played together.

    – Quickley was fine when they ran zone, but didn’t look capable of breaking down the defense. I don’t think he’s a PG.

    – Obi needs to hit 3s at a high volume, that’s the modern PF position and my primary concern when we drafted him. He should be better on avg than last night, but it wasn’t inspiring

  138. If RJ could shoot above 30% on threes and make 70% of his FT’s he could be a very effective player. He already possesses other skills like passing, finishing in traffic and on the break, drawing contact and he seems like a pretty committed defender.

    My concern with Obi is that he moves kind of awkwardly and stiffly. I can see why people would make the Amare comparison based on body type and movement, but Amare was impossible to guard because of his super quick first step (and it didn’t hurt having Steve Nash as his PG)

  139. It’s really a shame that Elfrid literally cannot shoot the basketball to save his life because he does a lot of other point guard thing pretty well, except, of course, the pick and roll.

    I honestly think Mitch should start with the caveat that, on offense, he must always look to rebound Payton’s misses. Because Payton will be left wide open, and he will have to take those shots to keep the spacing.

    Maybe RJ and Obi can get a pick and roll going? Or possibly Frank?

    I’m at least glad they have Burks to put next to RJ now because Burks can stroke it. But Randle is, of course, a major problem. He’s not so bad as a backup big, but he just can’t shoot either.

  140. ptmilo: the real problem with randle is not that it’s a bad idea to use him as point playmaker like we love to do. it’s that even at his best he’s a bottom 5 nba help defender and not quick enough to have any other defensive role, while on offense he can be efficient but provides zero spacing.

    I just saw this. What do you think?

  141. Also re MKG:

    At this point I would just cut Knox. They won’t ever do it because the optics are so bad, but holy shit does he suck.

  142. The team 2 years ago with Fiz and Mudiay was WAY worse than this team.

    Last year’s team with Fizdale to start was pretty unwatchable.

    Phil’s first year when they won 17 games was unwatchable.

    I think this team will be fun to watch in a few weeks.

  143. Just to be the contrarian, I think Obi had a wash game yesterday, which for his second pre-season game with hardly any practice for a raw rookie is to be expected. Way too early to throw him under the bus.

    Quickley had the jitters, but he had a nice follow-up in traffic (Quick to the ball, and effort) and I really liked his little floater that was nullified by his travel (jitters, but Frank had one the play before, three years in). Again, first time in an NBA game. Nine minutes. Too early to say much of anything.

    And — because there’s a non-zero chance it’s the last time one of us highlights a defensive positive from the lad — I think I saw Obi with a really nice forceful effort against Okafor early in the game, pushing him away from the basket and causing him to take a lousy shot and miss. Admittedly it’s Okafor, and one play. Just sayin’.

  144. swiftandabundant: I think this team will be fun to watch in a few weeks.

    The Knicks are 1 move away from being really bad, which would be a major step up. If they somehow found a real point guard, let’s just say Conley for example, they could put a competent team on the floor. Replace Elfrid with Conley in the starting rotation. Put Elfrid with Bullock, Toppin & Mitch.

  145. Owen: Yeah, RJ looked competent out there. I want to believe we will all be proved wrong. Would make a huge difference in our outlook.

    I liked Barret from day one.

    Sure, he’s not Zion or Morant, but he could score effectively inside, make plays, and rebounded well in college. When Zion was out for a few games he didn’t shrink because the defense was focused on him. He stepped up his game to an even higher level. The only things to question were the 3 point range and defense. But he answered the question on defense last year. He’s OK on D.

    He was in a horrible situation last year because his strength was stifled by the lack of space. The same may be true this year, but hopefully not to the same extent. When you draft kids this age, you have to be patient. This kid is a 3 point shot and some experience away from being a star player. There is no reason to be down on RJ just because it may take him some time to stretch his game out a little and make it easier to get to the basket too. He’ll also eventually have teammates that will make his job easier. We have loads of problems. RJ is not one of them.

  146. I think it’s just a little early to rank this team’s unwatchability relative to some very stiff competition but I do think there are going to be some nights where it’s really, really hard for this team to score which might make the season a bit of a slog.

  147. I seriously do wonder why we wouldn’t give Jeremy Lin a look-see, if for no other reason to give the fans something to cheer about. I mean seriously, what do we need MKG for — that’s a dead end if I’ve ever seen one no matter how uncle-ish and nephew-ish he may be with World Wide Wes. I would choose Lin 100x over Elfrid Payton too — not that he’s better than Payton, but we already know what Payton is –> he’s a guy who probably does not help make our other young players develop. And Lin would’t have any illusions that he needs to be the starter or whatever.

  148. I like Lin. We do need a PG. For whatever reason the Knicks seem to have zero interest in him.

    We need a scorer off the bench. Part of why I though Burks or even RJ might play off the bench is nobody except DSJr can create their own shot. And I think we all know we don’t want DSJr creating his own shot. Hopefully Toppin becomes that guy, but I’m skeptical that happens fast enough

  149. Add me to the Lin bandwagon. Why not? We know he’ll break down a defense, hit a 3-point shot, is 32 and desperate for another shot. It must be a Dolan thing. Maybe Lin needs to sign up with CAA?

  150. I just saw this. What do you think?

    i once saw a 30 something kiki vandewewghe jump a passing lane and cause mj to double dribble. randle is a worse than poor help defender, and he’s still been a putrid help defender in these two preseason games (normally wouldn’t shit on someone for preseason but in. context here it applies). thibs didn’t make a kat a good help defender and he damn well won’t do so for randle.

    in fact on the very play leading up to that link you might have noticed he was on plumlee and switched way too quickly onto jerami grant without any hedge. grant failed to throw the obvious pass to plumlee cutting behind obi with no help, but that’s only bc jerami grant is not a $20m player who should be running the pnr for you shitty rebuilding basketball team. if you want gifs of randle playing typical help defense you can walk blindfolded into synergy with a drumsticks and the music will play.

  151. watch like two plays after that when bey drives on rj and lays it in. randle is standing right fucking there, and i mean right there, and perhaps, i dunno… doing calf raises? the only way you can make sense of his behavior is to imagine him with 3/4 sleeves and a whistle.

  152. I think it is going to be hard for Lin to get past how washed he looked in Toronto back in 2019.

  153. Brian Cronin:
    I think it is going to be hard for Lin to get past how washed he looked in Toronto back in 2019.

    Such a bummer for him too because he was still pretty darn good the first half of that season in ATL and there was pretty clearly a role for him in Toronto if he could’ve seized it, and he just couldn’t make a shot. Played his way not just out of the rotation on what ended up being a championship team but apparently out of the league too. Could’ve been a really nice culmination of a good NBA career and instead ended up kind of a bummer. I don’t think at 32 off a season completely out of the league there’s any route back for him. I would’ve been fine giving him a shot last year but I think the ship has sailed now.

  154. I don’t think at 32 off a season completely out of the league there’s any route back for him. I would’ve been fine giving him a shot last year but I think the ship has sailed now.

    Yeah, even after a good season in China, he’s too old and people’s lasting memory of him was his time with the Raptors. Might not be fair, but it is what it is. If he really wanted to stick in the NBA, he shouldn’t have gone to China. He ultimately took the money knowing that it was probably going to lead to him not getting another realistic chance in the league.

  155. I’d rather roll out Harper or Quickly and take the losses than bring in Lin. If Lin was a heady playmaker maybe I could see bringing him just to run the second unit but Lin was an iso-loving scoring point (Lin might have been an best case outcome for Smith Jr back when you could still imagine a good outcome for Smith Jr.) who became useless when he could no longer score.

    That said, the media distraction bringing him back would cause might be a blessing given the awful start this team is almost certain to get off to.

  156. That said, the media distraction bringing him back would cause might be a blessing given the awful start this team is almost certain to get off to.

    Yeah, that’s the only reason bringing Lin back would make any sense.

  157. The only evaluations that are needed this year are : RJ, Mitch, Obi, Quickely…everyone else is moot…none of those other guys (save Noel) should or will be here in the future.. whatever we need to do to get this group minutes and see what they can do is the best path…I think Payton as bad a shooter as he is..should just get a ton of minutes with these other four guys and hand out the scraps to the rest…and get Randle out of here as soon as possible..

  158. Quickley will get minutes sometime after Payton gets hurt and DSJr plays his way out of the lineup.

  159. Dwayne Casey agrees with me on a comp for Toppin. But I don’t think it’s as positive a comp as he does.

    10. Pistons coach Dwane Casey’s comp for Toppin: Kenny “Sky” Walker, the former Knicks forward and lottery pick.

    “His body type, his athleticism; he’s a pogo stick,” Casey said. “We looked at him in the draft. … I like him. He’s going to have a long future in the NBA. … He’s a power forward who can score. I think the Knick fans are going to be in (for) an exciting tenure for him in New York.”

    The quote is from today’s Mike Vorkunov story in The Athletic. .

  160. Dwayne Casey agrees with me on a comp for Toppin. But I don’t think it’s as positive a comp as he does.

    Nice! You nailed that one.

  161. My randlom thoughts on the 2nd preseason game
    Team looked less “Team” than in the first one. I didn’t like the body language.Not much connection.
    Elf should stop shooting. Pass or drive only.
    Burks is looking great so far.
    RJ looked Very Promising.
    Randle and Obi should stop dribbling and post more or take 3s(Obi).
    Noel and Mitch need help to put their talent in order. Hakeem.
    Frank is a keeper. Refs charged him easily too many travellings and fouls yesterday but i liked his pace.
    Same with Quickly. His minutes/numbers say bust but i liked his energy. His shot mechanics look strange tho… Pretty curious to watch him make his shots.
    DSJ and Knox didn’t look good but let’s wait a bit before throwing em to the lions.
    Bullock is Bullock.

    Thibs & co have LOTS of work to do for decency

  162. E:
    Berman buried DSJ today.Quotes from observing scouts and everything.Vicious.HQ-approved?

    DSJr’s best stretch (by no means good) was playing more off the ball next to Luka on DAL. I wonder if we should try him at SG next to another ball handler (if we ever find a 2nd ball handler)

  163. I have no idea why I’m watching a preseason game between the Cavs and Pacers, but Andre Drummond just picked a pocket and launched a Steph Curry three at the buzzer in the first quarter, hit the bottom of the net. 2020 can’t get weirder.

  164. I tried to watch the first preseason games of Lamelo, Edwards and Haliburton but couldn’t…
    Feels to me like listening to crude demos instead of the final masters edition(Reg. Season) or the Definitive 24bit Remastered ones(playoffs)

  165. Boy, that Berman take-down was vicious.

    “Dennis just looks awful as a player and teammate,” the scout said. “He has zero feel. You question his vision.”

    Of course, if you google ‘Berman Dennis Smith Jr,’ you get almost two years of incredibly negative stories on DSJ. All richly deserved, don’t get me wrong.

  166. Dotson May be playing his way into a starting role with the Cavaliers. He played more minutes than anyone else tonight.

  167. From the Berman hit piece, his take on Austin Rivers, “Rivers is a 35 percent career 3-point shooter and a student of the game.”

    Don’t you love rambling nonsense like that? Ah…a student of the game. Gotcha.

  168. Knick fan not in NJ:
    Dotson May be playing his way into a starting role with the Cavaliers.He played more minutes than anyone else tonight.

    Only because Sexton is out. I can’t imagine Dot starting over him no matter how much he sucks.

  169. Man, these first 2 preseason games hit hard…I was so much more optimistic about our future last Thursday…

  170. I’m very thankful that I wasn’t able to watch the games but yeah, the results don’t seem too encouraging. I’m coming into the season with the thinking that nothing really matters outside of how Barrett, Toppin and Mitch plays, so at least RJ showed some encouraging signs and I’m happy enough. I do have feeling that the rotation will be something we obsess over for the entire season, but it’s still too early to freak out.

  171. Z-Man, don’t be sad. This season was always going to be fugly. Focus on the energy, and the kids, and how they’re developing, or not (and why Thibs is keeping Quickley on the bench behind a bunch of scrubs). Remember, if we win 24 we’re going to lose 48. That’s not going to be very pretty.

    Our next opponent is the 2 and 0 Cavs, who won tonight against the Pacers without Love, Sexton, or Porter. All I want for Xmas is to see our chubby stretch-4 get some actual burn before we set him on fire.

  172. I think Wolves fans are more angry at getting lucky in a draft that had no clear number 1 pick, and with everything that was said by Edwards and about him, I think they were already panicking anyway. Not that I care much since we never jump spots in the lottery or ever get the 1st overall anyway, and they’ve had it twice in not such a long time.

    He is ridiculously athletic tho, he had a chase down block that was mental, but the basketball skills seem like they’ll take s long time to develop.

  173. Z-man: Z-Man, don’t be sad. This season was always going to be fugly. Focus on the energy, and the kids, and how they’re developing, or not (and why Thibs is keeping Quickley on the bench behind a bunch of scrubs). Remember, if we win 24 we’re going to lose 48. That’s not going to be very pretty.

    We’ll be fine, it’ll take time to get our feet back under us following a 9 month layoff but we’ll be fine.

    Remember RJ, Mitch, & Obi are the only important players anyways. RJ looked pretty good. Mitch despite his fouls put up some really good numbers. Obi will normally sink more of those 3s.

  174. Z-man:
    Man, these first 2 preseason games hit hard…I was so much more optimistic about our future last Thursday…

    It’s pretty much exactly where I though we were and why I was upset. Signing or drafting a single GOOD point guard was sooooo important. It’s clear already. Until we find a true, #1 point guard, the Knicks are going to be difficult to watch.

  175. I saw the first game and the first half of the second game. I didn’t think the first game was awful or fugly. I was not expecting good offense and didn’t get it, but the defense was good. I hope we get more games like that. I do agree The first half of the second game was bad. Detroit player hard and we didn’t look ready for it.

  176. Actually I think the second game was probably a good learning experience for the kids. They had to play a team that had a chance to adapt their game to beat the Knicks and changed how they played specific players. Normally a rookie has to wait a long time to get that experience.

  177. We definitely need shooters at more positions, particularly PG. I think we could all pick apart the FO over some of their fringe moves (bailing on the #33 pick, taking Quickley too high, releasing Dotson in favor of MKG, etc.), but I’m hoping to focus my energies on their bigger moves this year.

    Those include coaching up RJ and surrounding him with the shooting he needs to thrive, turning Toppin into a high-impact & two-way player, and figuring out if Mitch can start/finish games and if he’s worth his next contract or if he should be traded for a higher return. That’s pretty much it.

    If you can turn those three (plus a good ’21 draft pick) into above-average options, you can get a good free agent in the door.

  178. Alan: Those include coaching up RJ and surrounding him with the shooting he needs to thrive, turning Toppin into a high-impact & two-way player, and figuring out if Mitch can start/finish games and if he’s worth his next contract or if he should be traded for a higher return. That’s pretty much it.

    I thought the most interesting tidbit from Partnow in there was his stat using the weighted average accuracy on open 3-pointers which showed the Knicks as last year’s worst shooting team (not shocking). I’m not sure it’s a perfect way of capturing what he’s going for because a significant part of the cost of having bad shooters is the good looks that they turn down which won’t show up his metric. But it’s at least an attempt to measure this idea and he cites improvement in this area via Burks and hopefully Obi as a reason the offense should be better than last year. I’m not sure I find it that convincing but it’s at least a slightly optimistic take on the offense which I’ve been struggling to come up with since the Sunday game.

  179. It’s a shame Omari Spellman won’t get to see any real minutes with the Knicks because he’s the exact type of floor spacer you’d want next to RJ Barrett, and he isn’t exactly ancient at 23 years old. I’d like to see Quickley, Ntilikina, Barrett, Toppin, and Spellman on the floor for a good stretch against Cleveland to give RJ some actual spacing.

  180. This may actually amount to nothing, but putting Kevin Knox and and Michael Kidd Gilchrist higher up on the ladder than Omari Spellman is some real bullshit. Omari Spellman has been in the league the same amount of time as Knox, he’s been a more productive player, and he knows his role. We have a guy on our bench that makes 1.7 3PM/36 and grabs 8.9 reb/36 and we won’t even give him time? I get he’s the 5th big on the roster (and I hope that makes him a lock to make the team), but I find it hard to believe that Omari Spellman isn’t one of the team’s ten best players. If he gets cut, the Knicks will officially be the CAAntucky mafia and I don’t really like that if it’s going to come at the expense of actual NBA players.

  181. ***I remember I grabbed Tony Wroten off the waivers because of Z-man’s excitement about him…
    that was not me…***

    It was Reub, not Z-Man! (I think some apologies are in order)

  182. It’s a shame Omari Spellman won’t get to see any real minutes with the Knicks because he’s the exact type of floor spacer you’d want next to RJ Barrett, and he isn’t exactly ancient at 23 years old. I’d like to see Quickley, Ntilikina, Barrett, Toppin, and Spellman on the floor for a good stretch against Cleveland to give RJ some actual spacing.

    A few days ago I said there’s no coherent reason to prioritize Knox over Spellman and Knox’s play since then has reinforced that. Spellman doesn’t have much in the way of a ceiling, but we can be pretty damn sure he can 1) be a large human and 2) hit threes. There’s room for that in the rotation of this team.

    You could go a few different ways with a lineup meant to maximize spacing for Barrett but Quickley-Barrett-Burks-Toppin-Spellman is probably my favorite iteration. Preseason sure seems like the time to give it a go.

  183. I’d be happy to give Spellman a chance but a 6’8″ C who is chronically like 25 pounds overweight and has played only a sprinkling of minutes in his two NBA seasons is exactly the kind of guy where you should be skeptical that everything you need to know about him is captured in his box score. He’s fallen out of the rotation both his years in the league despite being a young former first round pick on tanking teams. I’m not sure him getting cut would be particularly strong evidence for a vast and insidious conspiracy.

  184. I’d be happy to give Spellman a chance but a 6’8? C who is chronically like 25 pounds overweight and has played only a sprinkling of minutes in his two NBA seasons is exactly the kind of guy where you should be skeptical that everything you need to know about him is captured in his box score.

    His box score stats aren’t that good, though, so it’s not like he’s gaming the system or something (I don’t even know how that would work). 1,691 minutes isn’t bad for a 30th pick (he ranks 25th in MP in his draft class), and ATL has shown time and time again that they can’t ID talent. As I’ve repeated ad nauseum, GSW hasn’t fared much better since the days of drafting Draymond and Steph. (Seth Curry was on their damn roster and couldn’t make their squad; now he can claim he was a big part of the greatest offense in NBA history, with a different franchise.) Hell, Shane Larkin couldn’t find the floor on NBA rosters and he won Euroleague MVP while shooting 50% on deep threes all season. NBA teams aren’t good at talent evaluation outside of the very best and very worst the league has to offer.

    Spellman’s weight problems are probably reflected in his box score stats, not some kind of hidden information there. And if you think he’s just a mediocre player now, maybe you are betting that he’ll learn how to cut sugary drinks again, which was the primary cause of his Villanova weight problems, and get back into pro athlete condition. Also, his wingspan is 7’2″ and he’s plenty big to play center in today’s league. I just don’t think he’s all that good. Better than Knox, though. I’d cut Knox (or trade him for future 2nds) before getting rid of just about anyone outside of DSJ on the roster.

  185. His box score stats aren’t that good, though, so it’s not like he’s gaming the system or something (I don’t even know how that would work).

    I’m not saying he’s gaming the system but DBPM is always a little bit of an estimate particularly in a small sample and it’s not that hard to come up with a story for why Spellman might be doing a lot of defensive things poorly that aren’t captured in the model – for example, it’s hard to be in position when you’re way overweight.

    Generally though I agree with the chorus here – I’m not anti-Spellman and I agree he probably deserves to make team ahead of Knox who’s a total lost cause and MKG who was a lost cause like two years ago. I’m just saying that when you’ve got a guy who you acknowledge looks only mediocre on paper with an obvious flaw beyond that and who has already washed out of two organizations in two years decrying that the only reason he’s not making the Knicks is because of a conspiracy is silly.

  186. Spellman hit 39% of his 3s last year and has the 2nd highest career 3p% on the team. We should find him minutes.

    That said, Knox gets minutes over Spellman because he can play the 3 (to whatever extent Knox is capable of playing any NBA position) and we should be upset we don’t get to see Ignas play over him.

  187. Dotson May be playing his way into a starting role with the Cavaliers. He played more minutes than anyone else tonight.

    He’s obviously not going to be star and there are some off the court issues from his youth that turned people off, but he had off season surgery last year. He lost a full summer of development time and came into camp out of shape to start the season because of it. It was obviously going to take him some time to get into a groove. After a slow start; he was shooting 3 pointers at a very high level over the last 20 games of the season, improving off the the dribble, and is at least OK on defense. I realize we have a glut of guards, but imo he’s a better player than a few of the players we have now and there’s still some upside. He’s been inching forward all along. It was idiotic to give up on him so cheaply regardless of whether he breaks out into a legit starter or remains just a pretty good bench player than can shoot the 3.

  188. Dotson went to 2 colleges and NEITHER of them were Kentucky. Do we really want that kind of player on our roster?

  189. They should have kept both Dotson and Portis. Unless the bad rap was entirely the product of his $15 million (LOL) salary, Portis gets a bad rap around here. I’d take him in a heartbeat at 3.75.

  190. thenoblefacehumper: A few days ago I said there’s no coherent reason to prioritize Knox over Spellman and Knox’s play since then has reinforced that. Spellman doesn’t have much in the way of a ceiling, but we can be pretty damn sure he can 1) be a large human and 2) hit threes. There’s room for that in the rotation of this team.

    You could go a few different ways with a lineup meant to maximize spacing for Barrett but Quickley-Barrett-Burks-Toppin-Spellman is probably my favorite iteration. Preseason sure seems like the time to give it a go.

    I don’t get any indication that Tom Thibodeau understands the first thing about the need for floor spacing in the modern NBA.

  191. Shams:

    Breaking: Giannis Antetokounmpo says he is signing a contract extension with the Milwaukee Bucks. The two-time MVP will sign a five-year, $228.2 million supermax extension with the franchise, the largest deal in NBA history, sources tell

    Not that he was coming here, but so much for 2021 free agency…

  192. Yup, the potential FA saviors are dwindling. Hopefully this makes Rose pivot into using the cap space to get a few more assets. Wouldn’t mind taking on some salary for picks at the trade deadline.

  193. Giannis re-signs in Milwaukee. I really hope that he waited until the very end of the off-season just to maximally undermine the other contenders who built their whole off-seasons around preserving cap space to chase him next year. Serious 4-D chess.

    It’s probably a good thing for the league that he stays given all the other stars changing teams recently although we will see if he makes it all five years there. I don’t really understand why he would sign now rather than wait until next off-season just from an information gathering perspective, but if he 100% wants to be there I guess it can’t hurt.

  194. Kawhi Leonard can still opt-out and inexplicably sign a contract with the Knicks. Same for CP3.

    We can also sign the various corpses of Dwight Howard, Rudy Gay, LaMarcus Aldridge, Demar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry, and More!

    Or we can go with Rudy Gobert and keep Mitch on the bench for another year.

    We have so many options.

  195. I’m noticing people are all ready giving Thibs a hard time about how poor our spacing is.

    I wonder why that is, though. He didn’t assemble this team.

    Elf and Randle, for better or worse (mainly worse) are two of our best players. There really isn’t a coach in the league with this roster wo wouldn’t start them. Or RJ. But those 3 along with a non shooting C means the spacing is going to be bad.

    But who off the bench can improve it? Frank shoots better than Elf but NEVER penetrates and he also NEVER shoots the ball. Knox hasn’t shown to be a reliable shooter either. You aren’t removing RJ from the starting 5, so that eliminates Bullock. Rivers is hurt and is more of a combo although I could see him going over Elf and running more stuff through RJ. Quickley is unproven at this point. DSJ can’t shoot.

    I mean, how is Thibs supposed to spread the floor with this team? The only reliable 3 point shooters are burkes and bullocks, both of whom are in the rotation all ready.

    RJ has to improve his outside shooting but that’s gonna take time. Mitch loves to shoot 3’s in his IG vids but has yet to bust one out in a game. Frank has slowly gotten better but still shoots so little it doesn’t matter.

    Quickley could be the guy but he’s a late first round pick who hasn’t had a summer league and a shortened training camp. If he does make it into the rotation, its probably going to be awhile before that happens.

    Edit:

    I guess Spellman could get some minutes but that eats into minutes for Mitch and/or Toppin off the bench, which I don’t think anyone really wants.

  196. In order to prioritize spacing on this team, the Knicks will have to play guys who do not give us the best chance to win. Tom Thibodeau is not going to do that, and he never was going to do that.

  197. Yeah, Kawhi is really the only gem of 2021 free agency remaining and he seems pretty unlikely to leave LA no matter what happens given the great situation he gave up in Toronto to go there. Maybe Dallas or Miami could provide a different warm weather temptation to him if things really go south for the Clips again but it always seemed like a big part of his motivation was just wanting to be in SoCal. Can’t imagine a cold weather rebuilding situation being what he’s looking for though lol.

    Beyond that it looks like another summer of dangerous temptation to be honest. A number of good players who could tip the balance of the championship depending on what they choose but I agree not the kind of guys rebuilding teams should be after. Not hard to imagine the Knicks talking themselves into a Oladipo+Gobert core or the like though if they can swing it after what’s sure to be a painful year. Lets hope not.

  198. I mean, how is Thibs supposed to spread the floor with this team? The only reliable 3 point shooters are burkes and bullocks, both of whom are in the rotation all ready.

    Completely agree. You’re not going to make a lot of 3-pointers or have great spacing if you have three non-shooters on the floor all the time.

    It’s why the team is likely to be pretty bad, why we’re going to have one of the worst offenses in the league again. We’re rolling with lots of low-eFG% players, thus we’re going to have a terrible team eFG%, thus we’re going to have a terrible offense.

    There’s no coaching in the world that is going to remedy that.

  199. The simple answer to the Knicks shooting problems is that Randle, Payton, & RJ need to shoot better.

    Otherwise, you have to bench RJ and hope he can run the 2nd unit with Rivers.

    Payton/Bullock/Burks/Randle/Noel gives you 2 shooters.

    Rivers/Frank(?)/RJ/Toppin/Mitch gives you 2 shooters, 3 if Frank shoots well.

    Again, Frank shooting 32% from 3 doesn’t make him a good shooter except relative to other Knicks. I’m optimistic he improves but he needs to prove it.

  200. He’s obviously not going to be star and there are some off the court issues from his youth that turned people off, 

    Ah, to be a professional athlete and raping a woman gets framed as “some off the court issues from his youth that turned people off.”

  201. Z-man: have I crossed the reubicon?

    No :)
    Reubicon is pretty great actually. Maybe not Dolan’s Razor territory, or factorial, but it should be in the top 10 KnickerBlogger language innovations.

  202. Isn’t Beal available next year? (I might be misremembering that.) This is as magical dreamland as wishcasting gets, but Cade Cunningham + Beal + Barrett + Toppin + Mitch/Noel is not the worst foundation of a potentially good team. Beal’s still only 27, and he’s coming off a year where he averaged 30/4/6 on reasonable efficiency. I can’t think of an actual reason why Beal would want to come here, though, with us being one of the few destinations that isn’t more attractive by default than the Wizards.

  203. Quickley, Frank, RJ, Obi and Mitch is the lineup that I want to see. Substitute Noel when Mitch falls for 800th headfake and has to come out. Bring Randle in for Obi to slow the game down and allow Thibs to take a baby aspirin. Burks for Frank is ok too, Who cares about the others.

  204. I vote “Crossing the Reubicon” be for when a troll crosses the line and gets banned, with a colloquial usage for when the Knicks’ shiny new management does the signature Stupid Move (TM) that causes all of us to collectively lose hope and sink a little deeper into our communal despair.

  205. thenamestsam: Not hard to imagine the Knicks talking themselves into a Oladipo+Gobert core or the like though if they can swing it after what’s sure to be a painful year. Lets hope not.

    I think the Knicks can spend half of that on Mitchell Robinson and Luke Kennard (who is repped by CAA) and get close to 80% of the value. I hope they see things the way I do, but all of this is really tied into how well Mitchell Robinson plays over the course of the season. If he shows that he’s not a guy we can rely on, I’d fully expect us to be in the Gobert market.

  206. The best hope for our spacing is either moving Randle or him improving on his shooting from two years ago.

    If we remove Randle, then we have Toppin, Knox, and Spellman as our PFs. Toppin and Knox both have upside potential from three and Spellman can shoot. If we don’t move Randle, maybe he can prove that last year was the outlier and not two years ago and shoot over 34% from 3 again. Both outcomes seem unlikely but if we can get reliable spacing from the 4 then our overall spacing starts to look a lot better.

    While Barrett probably won’t all of a sudden become a great shooter I am hoping that he will be just good enough to force teams to guard him which will help with spacing. Rivers and Ntilikina provide a similar mediocre but just good enough to force defenses to respect them from 3 type shot.

    Finally, we should bench, trade, or cut DSj.

    So if we get rid of DSj, Barrett shoots just good enough to keep defenses honest, and Randle either gets moved or shoots better, then only Payton and the centers will be zeros from 3 and our spacing could be simply mediocre rather than abjectly poor. Unlikely, but really our only hope to have a functional offense.

  207. here are some random words posted today for no particular reason. blake griffin kevin love al horford demar derozan lamarcus aldridge john wall chapter two wes and leon beer goggles.

  208. “Crossing the Reubicon”

    It’s a good one, Z-man. It has an obvious use for trolling behavior, but also expressing an opinion that provokes intense disgust, like saying that Dotson had some “off-the-field issues” instead of saying “he raped a woman in a bathroom and evaded prosecution because of his University of Oregon connections and a culture of slut-shaming and targeted harassment.”

    I also might suggest calling a poster “a naturalized citizen of Ruruland” when he insistently touts a mediocre player as a superstar. R.J. Barrett is going to be the catalyst of a real population boom. The diaspora has already begun.

  209. The Glass Half Rebuilt:
    In order to prioritize spacing on this team, the Knicks will have to play guys who do not give us the best chance to win. Tom Thibodeau is not going to do that, and he never was going to do that.

    Then he never should have been hired.

  210. jazzfunk:
    Quickley, Frank, RJ, Obi and Mitch is the lineup that I want to see. Substitute Noel when Mitch falls for 800th headfake and has to come out.Bring Randle in for Obi to slow the game down and allow Thibs to take a baby aspirin.Burks for Frank is ok too,Who cares about the others.

    There’s no reason whatsoever that lineup can’t be the starting lineup. It would be way better if it was the starting lineup. The only reason it wouldn’t work is if Quickley can’t play a lick, but that should be seen, not worried about.

    This team simply should not be building its offense around Elfrid Payton and Julius Randle. It’s that simple. Anytime a thought enters your brain to the contrary, it should be expelled. Keep it simple. If it has to be repeated 10-15 times a day to truly seep in, then do it.

    This team should not be building its offense around Elfrid Payton and Julius Randle.

  211. Mike Honcho:
    I vote “Crossing the Reubicon” be for when a troll crosses the line and gets banned, with a colloquial usage for when the Knicks’ shiny new management does the signature Stupid Move (TM) that causes all of us to collectively lose hope and sink a little deeper into our communal despair.

    Cool idea!

  212. The Honorable Cock Jowles: instead of saying “he raped a woman in a bathroom and evaded prosecution because of his University of Oregon connections and a culture of slut-shaming and targeted harassment.”

    Actually, whatever cultural things went into the ultimate disposition of Dotson’s case are primarily our overemphasis on sports and our placing of elite athletes on pedestals. Whatever “slut-shaming and targeted harassment” went on were entirely derivative of his status as such.

    As a result, all of us are guilty. We can’t properly assuage that guilt by then turning around and aiming a compensatory high-level dose of bile personally at the athlete. People certainly try to do that, but it doesn’t really work in any serious sense.

  213. Hopefully, we’ll just keep loading up on draft picks (and only waste about half of them) like other rebuilding teams. Then, when there’s a Harden-style trade demand, we can pounce. Otherwise, we need to look at free agents in, like, 2023, when we should be better (at around the .500 mark). That seems to be “how it’s done.”

  214. @TheClashFan you can only cover up so much of the base meme template without doing more than a minimal effort. The meme is from the movie We’re the Millers, so two of the characters are Jennifer Aniston and Emma Roberts.

  215. Actually, whatever cultural things went into the ultimate disposition of Dotson’s case are primarily our overemphasis on sports and our placing of elite athletes on pedestals.

    what about

    because of his University of Oregon connections

    led you to use the word

    Actually

    as though it contributed anything new to my claim

    As a result, all of us are guilty. We can’t properly assuage that guilt by then turning around and aiming a compensatory high-level dose of bile personally at the athlete. People certainly try to do that, but it doesn’t really work in any serious sense.

    I’m trying to understand how you could use the phrase “all of us” in this circumstance. Does not compute one bit. I did not sign him to a contract and I did not support him being on an NBA roster. I am not one of his enablers. Neither are many of us here on this board.

  216. Unless one of us has been secretly funneling money to Dotson’s OnlyFans, I struggle to see how “all of us” are responsible (or should feel guilty) for him choosing to rape a girl in the bathroom. There may be a culture of slut-shaming and athlete-enabling that allowed him to duck the consequences of that choice, but that was still something he chose to do of his own free will and volition.

  217. Mike Honcho:
    @TheClashFan you can only cover up so much of the base meme template without doing more than a minimal effort. The meme is from the movie We’re the Millers, so two of the characters are Jennifer Aniston and Emma Roberts.

    Fair enough. I thought maybe you were implying that they are sissies…
    :-)

  218. The Honorable Cock Jowles: what about

    led you to use the word

    as though it contributed anything new to my claim

    I’m trying to understand how you could use the phrase “all of us” in this circumstance. Does not compute one bit. I did not sign him to a contract and I did not support him being on an NBA roster. I am not one of his enablers. Neither are many of us here on this board.

    Because spending time on this board and so much time on sports generally results in the culture and the pedestal. It’s not a matter of enabling any particular player; it’s a matter of enabling the culture which enables the player.

    I can certainly see why you’d be resistant to this conclusion, but it’s reality. Without the sports-industrial complex, there’s no looking the other way for athletes’ transgressions and crimes. We’re all part of that complex. I wish it hadn’t become as big as it became and that we were still in the days of the University of San Francisco ending its basketball program because of such transgressions only a few short years after it was a national power (Google Quinton Dailey and look through 1982 issues of SI in the SI Vault), but we’re unfortunately way beyond that now. I didn’t leave, so I’m guilty, too. I’ve accepted it.

  219. Spending time on this board and so much time on sports generally don’t give any right to any athlete to do illegal actions without consequences.
    If the system of Justice is slow, unjust and favourable to rich and famous don’t blame it on the junky fans.

  220. we are going to have a pretty decent pick in a very good draft and THREE chances at a franchise altering talent…. the other pick could potentially land a very good starter…. and we are also going to have plenty of cap space and everything you don’t like about this team will be jettisoned to cleveland or oklahoma city…

    this team is going to look dramatically different next year.. this year is really about giving last chances to guys to see what they got…. prognosticating on lineups and personnel choices this year is really just rearranging chairs on the titanic… it’s all going to be set ablaze in 6 months…

    that also means people you don’t like are going to see a lot of time…. that’s good… this is what you call a freeroll…. if it gets us closer to cunningham, mobley or suggs then YOU DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN…. if they work out then maybe they can stick around…. we don’t have many options other than what we are already doing…

    so sit tight.. root for your guys on this team… watch some college bball … and embrace hope… because this misery could actually end this offseason….

  221. E: I can certainly see why you’d be resistant to this conclusion, but it’s reality. Without the sports-industrial complex, there’s no looking the other way for athletes’ transgressions and crimes. We’re all part of that complex. I wish it hadn’t become as big as it became and that we were still in the days of the University of San Francisco ending its basketball program because of such transgressions only a few short years after it was a national power (Google Quinton Dailey and look through 1982 issues of SI in the SI Vault), but we’re unfortunately way beyond that now. I didn’t leave, so I’m guilty, too. I’ve accepted it.

    Dude, just stop. A woman is sexually assaulted in America every two minutes and only a tiny fraction of the perps are ever convicted. This isn’t a “sports” problem. Dotson facing few consequences for his actions makes him just like most rapists- not some special case.

  222. djphan:
    we are going to have a pretty decent pick in a very good draft and THREE chances at a franchise altering talent

    The chance of the worst team in the NBA picking 4th is 12%. Who wants to bet we pick 4th?

  223. Mike Honcho:
    I vote “Crossing the Reubicon” be for when a troll crosses the line and gets banned, with a colloquial usage for when the Knicks’ shiny new management does the signature Stupid Move (TM) that causes all of us to collectively lose hope and sink a little deeper into our communal despair.

    so it shall be…

    nice work z-man…are you familiar with the story following caesar?

    i’ve forgotten so much now…anyone have any suggestions for books/shows/movies relating to julius and the history of rome…

  224. Yeah The Knicks need to sue their cap space and cheap vet contracts to take back a player on a longer deal and get another decent pick. We need to just keep amassing first round picks and let Payne and Thibs do their thing.

  225. The Honorable Cock Jowles: It’s a good one, Z-man. It has an obvious use for trolling behavior, but also expressing an opinion that provokes intense disgust, like saying that Dotson had some “off-the-field issues” instead of saying “he raped a woman in a bathroom and evaded prosecution because of his University of Oregon connections and a culture of slut-shaming and targeted harassment.”

    As a person with far too personal and intimate (albeit second hand) knowledge of the brutality and lasting impact of sexual assault, and an educator, husband and father of a son and two daughters, I have a soft spot for Damyean. He was a party to that heinous act, for sure, and there’s no undoing it. But he has also paid a price. That ugly police report will be attached to his name for the rest of his life, for all to see every time his name is googled. Since that incident, starting from his years at U of Houston and then his years on the Knicks, he has presented as a model citizen both on and off the court. He did not “confess” per se (nor would any advisor or lawyer suggest that he should) and did not get convicted, serve time, etc. , but he has expressed ownership and regret far above and beyond what, say, Kobe Bryant or Big Ben did. By all accounts, from his coaches, teammates, and others, he has been a model citizen. I have never seen him emote disrespectfully to referees or opponents, or look or sound anything but humble in interviews. If you had no idea what had happened that night in Oregon, you would have no reason to think that he was anything but a model citizen.

    If he is beyond redemption in the minds of many here, so be it. In my heart, I have forgiven him. He got a second chance and has made the most of it. Here’s some background info.

  226. A woman is sexually assaulted in America every two minutes

    just looked up the stats relating to women being assaulted, those are some really grim numbers…hopefully they’re trending in a positive direction…

    edit: just read what you wrote z-man, well said…

    final thought on this subject – there truly is tragedy all around us…

  227. PS the article may have been planted as a puff piece, but as I said, nothing I have seen or heard has made me feel that the positive things said about him are anything but true. I also had the pleasure of meeting Damyean and shaking his hand at a school event (along with MitchRob, Big Shot Bob, and Adam Silver) and a NBA Cares event at my school. I had already believed that he was deserving of redemption by then, but there was something very genuine and humble about him that made me feel obligated to write this. Hopefully that doesn’t brand me as a rape apologist among my fellow KBers, but figured I’d take the risk.

  228. Donnie Walsh:
    ***I remember I grabbed Tony Wroten off the waivers because of Z-man’s excitement about him…

    that was not me…***

    It was Reub, not Z-Man! (I think some apologies are in order)

    You’re right. MY BAD!
    (“Crossing the Reubicon” is great).

  229. Van Gundy was also impressed with Williamson’s free throw shooting as he went 10-of-11 from the line. The only times last season when Williamson, a 64% free throw shooter, shot above 90% were when he hit his only attempt against Utah in the bubble and when he knocked down both attempts against Cleveland on Feb. 28.

    “The free throws, I feel like I’m going to get fouled a lot,” Williamson said. “That’s free money. I gotta make that.”

    i like zion’s sense of humor…he’s going to be a handful around the basket if he starts going for a lot of rebounds…

  230. I must give credit to my man Steve Schmidt from the Lincoln Project for that one, he’s been using the phrase repeatedly to describe Republicans who have debased themselves and the Party by becoming Trumpism zombies.

  231. Not seeing anything about Giannis getting a no trade clause with his extension… (edit: looks there’s a 15% trade kicker at least)

    Was Melo the last guy to get a NTC? That would be pretty funny if true (Thanks Phil!)

  232. Thibs has already taken to openly pining for a star and expressing the imperative that aggressiveness be deployed in getting one.

  233. Dink: Not seeing anything about Giannis getting a no trade clause with his extension…

    I think extensions are ineligible for no-trade clauses (I don’t have any idea why). You also need at least 8 years in the league. So I think had Giannis waited until free-agency next year he could’ve asked for a no-trade but by signing his extension now he was ineligible. At least if I’m understanding correctly.

    The Melo one was obviously absurd but part of the reason they’re so rare is that the eligibility rules are so stringent. Surely Lebron would have gotten one when he signed with LA for example except that he was ineligible.

  234. Forgive me for not holding myself accountable for rapist apologism like, say, Ken Starr, Ian McCaw and Art Briles. Just like I am accountable for climate change as Charles Koch. Just as I am accountable for the deaths of 100,000 Iraqi citizens as Dick Cheney. Culpability is a binary if you think about it, and it does really make you think. We do, indeed, live in a society.

  235. Surely Lebron would have gotten one when he signed with LA for example except that he was ineligible.

    I tried to think of a trade that wouldn’t have gotten LeBron’s GM excoriated. 2007’s Duncan, Manu, Parker and all eligible firsts? Kobe, Pau and Odom and all the firsts? Harden, Durant and Westbrook and all the firsts? Frank and Knox and a conditional 2nd swap?

  236. He was never coming here, so I am thrilled that Giannis is staying in Milwaukee. It makes that Holiday trade make a ton more sense, but also, at the same time, it likely lumps Giannis into the classic land of “Amazing NBA players who would be really bad GMs” if that Holiday trade was what he wanted from the Bucks for him to agree to lock down an extension with Milwaukee.

  237. I feel like Milwaukee could’ve probably gotten Harden for the package they sent out for Jrue if they’d just waited. And say what you will about Harden but he’s way, way better than Jrue and I would argue a better fit with Giannis (although I wouldn’t be surprised if Giannis disagreed).

  238. Slow slow Knicks news day today, though The Athletic has an analytics-focused conversation between Vorkunov and Seth Partnow on the current state of the team and Partnow’s expectations for RJ and Obi, among others

    Alan, I liked the article. Thanks for the pointer. The conclusion was pretty depressing though. I read it as basically the Knicks will have a good coach and system in place so they will be able to evaluate what they have over the course of the season even though they won’t be any good.

  239. I feel like Milwaukee could’ve probably gotten Harden for the package they sent out for Jrue if they’d just waited. And say what you will about Harden but he’s way, way better than Jrue and I would argue a better fit with Giannis (although I wouldn’t be surprised if Giannis disagreed).

    I don’t think it was clear that Harden was going to be dealt, though, so they had to get who was available, provided (and I think it is likely that this is precisely what happened) that Giannis told me, “Get me one of these X guys.” That said, yes, it’s crazy that Holiday basically netted what you would typically give up for a guy on par with Harden.

  240. Brian Cronin: I don’t think it was clear that Harden was going to be dealt, though, so they had to get who was available, provided (and I think it is likely that this is precisely what happened) that Giannis told me, “Get me one of these X guys.” That said, yes, it’s crazy that Holiday basically netted what you would typically give up for a guy on par with Harden.

    Yeah I agree, there was no way they could know, but that’s why you don’t give up the farm for a good not great player just because that’s who’s available at this exact second. As you said, Giannis would be a lousy GM.

  241. If there were two concurrent simulations going on in Milwaukee, á la Sliding Doors, and one was that package for Jrue and the other was that same package for Harden, I think I would bet on the Jrue track having more team success for the Bucks than the Harden one.

  242. Yeah I agree, there was no way they could know, but that’s why you don’t give up the farm for a good not great player just because that’s who’s available at this exact second. As you said, Giannis would be a lousy GM.

    Oh yeah, it was definitely inopportune to not wait. Just like it was insane for the Knicks to rush to sign their players last year. Unless you’re getting a superstar, don’t rush in free agency/trades! However, as we note, this was due to Giannis telling them to do it, and he’s a great enough player that him being a bad GM is still probably worth it in the long run.

  243. Brian Cronin: Ah, to be a professional athlete and raping a woman gets framed as “some off the court issues from his youth that turned people off.”

    I fully understand why many people wanted him out of here, but I wasn’t a witness, I’m not a lawyer, and I didn’t do a private investigation. Law enforcement did all that. I only read the conflicting statements.

    I have an opinion on what happened, but he was not even indicted, let alone convicted.

    At a certain point, unless you were in the room and KNOW what happened, you can be skeptical of how law enforcement handled it, wonder if there were payoffs or preferential treatment involved, etc… but you are innocent until proven guilty.

    I think there’s a pretty good chance Kobe did as much or worse, KP may have done as much or worse, and there’s probably a long list of others that may be guilty or innocent in similar cases. What just don’t know what happened or he would have done time in jail.

    So far, he has been in no further trouble and had no further accusations of improper behavior or worse. IMO if we were willing to sign him to start after reviewing the matter, we should have kept him. God (if there is one) can sort this out later. I don’t know what happened.

  244. At a certain point, unless you were in the room and KNOW what happened, you can be skeptical of how law enforcement handled it, wonder if there were payoffs or preferential treatment involved, etc… but you are innocent until proven guilty.

    100% fuck off

    dumbest poster with us today, Mr. Primary Sources

  245. Obviously, I think Thibs has the right idea when he says the Knicks need star players and should aggressively pursue one using all options available (draft, trade, free agency) and not just sit around hoping to strike gold some day in the draft. We have some decent assets now and we also have cap space. I just don’t see anyone on the horizon we can make a move on. Maybe later in the season one or more players will be unhappy and ask for trade. If they do, I’m all for using our excess 1st round picks and a couple of young players to land someone that can actually move the chain forward as long as the price and player make sense.

  246. The Honorable Cock Jowles: 100% fuck off

    dumbest poster with us today, Mr. Primary Sources

    I know you have a strong opinion on this and I suspect you are correct in your assessment of what happened, but the way real world works (AND THANK GOD FOR IT TOO) is that first there is an investigation. If there is enough evidence you are indicted. Then there is a trial and a jury of your peers decides if you are guilty or not. This didn’t even get to the indictment stage because of inconsistent statements and a female witness to the bathroom scene.

    Set aside what you think happened and your passions about the problem in general (that I agree are justified), an accusation should NOT destroy a person’s life.

    If you ask me, Kobe probably did as much or worse. But again, I wasn’t there. His life should not have been destroyed because a woman accused him. It should have been destroyed if he was convicted.

  247. Deeefense: Set aside what you think happened and your passions about the problem in general (that I agree are justified), an accusation should NOT destroy a person’s life.

    As a general observation, you know, it’s interesting. While current fad seems to hold that passion leads to greater insight and wisdom, including as to empirical factual matters, the exact opposite is true. Excessive passion is an obstacle to those things. If someone comes into a police station or a deposition or a lawyer’s office and they’re seemingly really, really pissed off and emotional and every time you try to engage with them and figure out what they’re trying to say they’re just pissed off and emotional, the person trying to get to the factual truth will typically wait until they’re calmer and more in control.

    Which isn’t to say passion doesn’t have its place in human affairs, certainly it does.

    [quote]Obviously, I think Thibs has the right idea when he says the Knicks need star players and should aggressively pursue one using all options available (draft, trade, free agency) and not just sit around hoping to strike gold some day in the draft. We have some decent assets now and we also have cap space. I just don’t see anyone on the horizon we can make a move on. Maybe later in the season one or more players will be unhappy and ask for trade. If they do, I’m all for using our excess 1st round picks and a couple of young players to land someone that can actually move the chain forward as long as the price and player make sense.[/quote]

    Substantively this makes sense; I was simply noting that it’s Thibs voicing this and thus already kind of being not with the program, agitated, and out of his lane. After two exhibition games. Most likely, he was told of a bunch of grandiose plans to get a star that would up crashing against lol Knicks, and he’s already frustrated. Kinda looks and sounds that way. There’s likely very little sense in which he thought he was signing up for … this.

  248. The Honorable Cock Jowles: how fucking stupid can one person be

    You do a good job of letting us know every day with your basketball opinions.

    Are you honestly incapable separating your passions on the subject and feelings on this specific case from whether an athlete should have an NBA career if he was accused of rape but not even indicted?

    There are probably a few communist leaders in China cringing as they are rounding people up.

    Dude, you have a good heart, I know it’s in the right place. But you are wrong. There is a problem with the society, but we have police, investigations, indictments, and trials to prevent people like you from doing damage to even one innocent.

    I’m going to move on, I can see this is going to be another wasted hour of my life on this forum.

  249. E: Substantively this makes sense; I was simply noting that it’s Thibs voicing this and thus already kind of being not with the program, agitated, and out of his lane. After two exhibition games. Most likely, he was told of a bunch of grandiose plans to get a star that would up crashing against lol Knicks, and he’s already…

    I’m sure he did not come to NY for a 76er-like 5-10 year rebuild program, but I don’t sense he’s being impatient. I sense he’s stating the obvious fact that we still suck despite already making a bunch of 1st round picks in recent years. He’s stating that we if we want to get somewhere we have to start thinking like Pat Riley, Jerry West and other more aggressive big market teams that have some assets and space and make things happen when an opportunity presents itself instead of just trying to draft out way there. I don’t think he’s advocating any bad deals just to move forward.

  250. Brian Cronin: Oh yeah, it was definitely inopportune to not wait. Just like it was insane for the Knicks to rush to sign their players last year. Unless you’re getting a superstar, don’t rush in free agency/trades! However, as we note, this was due to Giannis telling them to do it, and he’s a great enough player that him being a bad GM is still probably worth it in the long run.

    Not probably worth it, definitely. He’s got possibly the strongest case for best player in the NBA, just won his second straight MVP, just won DPOY, and turned 26 a week ago. Anything he asks for is worth it to keep him on the team, he’s literally irreplaceable.

  251. Generally a good heart, I’d agree — but even rapists are capable of redemption and growth. I’m pretty sure a lot of this modern unforgiving and passionate and strident tone is just internet theatrics, but the concepts of rehabilitation, forgiveness, redemption, growth are pretty timeless. And obviously the concepts of due process, innocent until proven guilty, cross-examination, confrontation of witnesses, fair trials, objective fact finding, proportionate punishment need no additional defense here.

  252. I don’t trust the college process at all for dealing wIth sexual incidents at all. Often the accused doesn’t eve. Have a chance to tell his or her side of the story. In this case the college process punished Dotson even though the police and prosecutor chose not to pursue it. So I’m with Strat on this issue.

  253. I don’t trust the college process at all for dealing wIth sexual incidents at all. Often the accused doesn’t eve. Have a chance to tell his or her side of the story. In this case the college process punished Dotson even though the police and prosecutor chose not to pursue it. So I’m with Strat on this issue.

    True, Dotson was the real victim here.

  254. Not sure what the italics or the “true” mean there, but yes of course, a person who gets thrown in jail or otherwise punished for a crime they didn’t commit is indeed a victim and there’s no reason not to use that term. I have no idea whether Dotson falls into that category.

    But like I said before, if one really and truly can’t abide sexual aggressors and sexual abusers, big time college and pro sports really aren’t for them. We’ve come up with a whole vocabulary and nomenclature to try to rationalize and square the two things, but the reality is clear.

  255. You can read the reports and decide for yourself. Innocent until proven guilty is only about putting a guy in prison. OJ Simpson was never convicted of murder, we certainly can (and should) think he committed murder.

  256. I must give credit to my man Steve Schmidt from the Lincoln Project for that one, he’s been using the phrase repeatedly to describe Republicans who have debased themselves and the Party by becoming Trumpism zombies.

    joe has been seriously picking up his speech game yesterday and again today down in georgia… not sure who does his writing (the words sound a lot like that guy klain’s), but, they’ve been very on point and well delivered…

  257. Brian Cronin: OJ Simpson was never convicted of murder, we certainly can (and should) think he committed murder.

      

    Because we all saw and heard evidence put up in a fair trial. Witnesses, physical evidence, questioning, cross-examination, the whole shebang. Wouldn’t have been possible with a police report of an interview of a single witness.

    And if OJ Simpson was 30 and a star small forward and the Knicks hired him, I think you’d see a whole lot of people abandoning the Knicks. (Of course no NBA team would ever hire a cold-blooded murderer and that goes all the way up to Jordan or LeBron.) I certainly wouldn’t follow their every move with the borderline insanity I do now and I’d venture every single person here would say the same thing. I’d take a complete break.

    So something else is going on to explain the difference between that extreme hypothetical on the one hand and the run of the mill Dameyon Dotsons on the other hand. Could be a lot of things, I won’t bother to speculate out loud.

  258. ***if one really and truly can’t abide sexual aggressors and sexual abusers, big time college and pro sports really aren’t for them. ***

    Then can we agree that big time college and pro sports should be for no one, thanks.

  259. I have not read the reports. Do they give Dotson’s side of the story as well as the accuser’s side of it?

  260. (Of course no NBA team would ever hire a cold-blooded murderer and that goes all the way up to Jordan or LeBron.)

    Ray Lewis. LeBron is still making the supermax after ditching the white suit.

  261. I don’t find it at all insane to demand people be better, including pro-athletes.

    E, are you accusing all NBA players of rape or even a substantial portion? Because that itself is quite a claim and incompatible with your other claims about finding people guilty only via legal trial.

    Your position also ignores a lot of the realities of legal trials and problems intrinsic to prosecuting rape cases. For instance, Kobe Bryant’s case was about as open and shut as you can have in this sort of trial. Instead of trying the case in court, Kobe’s lawyers litigated via the press. The victim decided not to testify because she face severe public backlash and slut shaming before the trial had chance to start.

    Then there’s real world examples of fans helping change a problematic industry. We can look to real world examples like the Me Too movement which started making progress expunging movie executives and problematic actors. Do you think everyone in the Me Too movement stopped watching movies or TV shows? No, that’s a ridiculous assertion that mirrors your own.

    It’s exactly because there are fans like us who demand a higher level of accountability that change for the better is possible.

  262. I have not read the reports. Do they give Dotson’s side of the story as well as the accuser’s side of it?

    Yep.

  263. Dammit, so many other prospects look great in preseason.

    Payton Pritchard went nuts tonight, and Maxey looked good. Even Lonnie Walker did great as a starter.

    Why is it so hard for the Knicks to figure out what kids will become good pro ball players?

  264. dumbfuck boomer…pretty sure my wife or kids call me some variation of that theme on a daily basis…

  265. “Why is it so hard for the Knicks to figure out what kids will become good pro ball players?”

    We did find Mitch. But yeah, it’s literally amazing how the first couple of weeks of every season provides proof we blew it again….

  266. My kids call me dumbfuck boomer, and I wasn’t even alive when the Knicks last won a championship…

  267. Owen:
    “Why is it so hard for the Knicks to figure out what kids will become good pro ball players?”

    We did find Mitch. But yeah, it’s literally amazing how the first couple of weeks of every season provides proof we blew it again….

    Robinson can’t stay on the floor after two seasons, and his average shot distance has been 1.3 feet from the hoop! That plus shotblocking would’ve been amazing in 2010, but he needs to show more this year or he’ll be getting 1-for-5s soon like Noel.

  268. I’d move we give him at least another week before going into a doomcasting spiral, but I do agree that Mitch’s value is limited if he doesn’t at least cut the really dumb fouls. That’d save him at least one or two fouls a game.

  269. Guys, you gotta stop with the over reactions to preseason performances, good and bad.

    The 46th pick in the draft, a guy named Talen Horton-Tucker, went off for 33 points for the Lakers the other night. The #1 pick in the draft has had two terrible preseason games.

    It doesn’t mean anything.

  270. Horton-Tucker was projected really highly by at least one statistical model out there — I forget which one, but they nailed it.

  271. Just to clarify, THT was the 46th pick in the 2019 draft, not this year’s draft. He played most of last season in G league. I wish Iggy would go off for 33 points in an NBA game.

  272. Apparently he is 6’4 with a 7’1 wingspan and weighs 235. I saw clips of him hitting a bunch of step back 17 footers so not sure I am a believer in the THT lifestyle quite yet. Lebron seems to be a big fan though.

  273. We get an up close look at Okoro tonight. He’s averaging 16.5 points through the first two preseason games.

  274. The Dotson rape case is troubling on it’s own. I don’t want to discuss his situation specifically, but instead, I want to lump in all the other crimes that pro athletes committed or are accused of committing. Look at players like Ray Lewis, Ray Rice, Roger Vick, Jason Williams, Lenny Dykstra, Ugueth Urbina, Jason Kidd, Domingo German & yeah, add OJ Simpson as a group. Add cheaters Barry Bonds and Pete Rose. They were accused and/or were convicted of doing reprehensible things.

    They should be punished. We all agree. Where there will be disagreement is forgiveness. Can they ever be forgiven? Personally, I have trouble forgiving but I have not been perfect. I would smack young me around. Some people’s biggest regret is something they said but many regret things that they did, some worse than others. Have you driven tipsy? Did you ever steal? Cheat on a person or a test? Sold drugs? I don’t need your answers to the rhetorical question. Statistics will only show those who are caught but if you’re the rare saint, good for you. I believe that a large percent of the world has skeletons in the closet.

    A long time ago I came to terms with the issue and accept that if convicted and punished, I accept the punishment as debt fulfilled. I will root for the player to do well for my teams but the no longer have my respect. They will never gain that. I will not buy their jerseys. I will not root for them as people.

    I understand both sides of this issue and accept that the extreme opinions are all valid. It is as understandable to forgive as it is to continue to despise and shun. IMO there are ethical arguments that support both attitudes.

  275. I believe that Dotson is a special case. I don’t expect anyone else to feel that way, and giving a full explanation of my feelings is far too messy to do comfortably, even in a relatively safe forum as this one. Frankly, I think he is probably as good of a person as most of us, and if he were my son i’d be proud of who he has become.

  276. The DSJ, Frank, Knox era in NY should be over already.
    I have not seen appreciable change in their games. Knox continues to be lost out there. DSJ lacks the vision and Frank is almost exactly the same guy, long defender, timid and not an offensive player.
    Only Frank could fit into a Thibs team simply because of his defense, but one dimensional.

    So tired of relying on players that would either be bench or G league types on other teams.

    How is it that this team hasn’t made getting a point guard its top priority???

  277. I just want to say one thing… Mitch is never going to be what we want him to be… I’m done hoping, but will certainly appreciate the positives he provides in his current form, which feels like his forever form more and more with each passing game…

  278. And while I thought Knox looked more spry out there, he certainly still stinks in this league… ditto for DSJ… its so sad that our chat fodder is what it is…

  279. All Mitch has to do is cut down the fouls and he’s a starter in this league. And we’ve seen periods where he’s done that. At the end of his rookie year when DeAndre was on the team and also the end of last year under Miller. I think maybe he’s regressed a bit on fouling too much simply because he hasn’t played a competitive game since March. So I think he’ll get better in a few weeks.

  280. Meanwhile, trying hard not to freak out about one bad preseason game from Obi while players picked after him — and, for that matter, after Quickley — have played more consistently well. As Jowles would say, we’re talkin’ ’bout preseason?!?!

  281. I think the questions about Mitch are more about whether there’s really as much upside as many of us hoped given his excellent production at such a young age. He has struggled to make much tangible progress at even picking the very low hanging fruit for his improvement – just stop doing so many dumb fouls! – that it becomes harder and harder for me to believe that he’s eventually going to make the more challenging leap to actual stardom.

  282. Mitch won’t morph into a superstar but he’s already a pretty good player.

    If he can fix his defensive spacing and rebounding a bit and play for a competent offense, then I’d be happy enough.

    My current theory and justification for starting Mitch is that the offense would look better with him than Noel.

  283. Alan:
    Meanwhile, trying hard not to freak out about one bad preseason game from Obi while players picked after him — and, for that matter, after Quickley — have played more consistently well. As Jowles would say, we’re talkin’ ’bout preseason?!?!

    The problem with Obi is that this is kinda supposed to be it with a 22yo. He should improve some, but really needs to show he’s a positive almost immediately. He was the oldest Knick on the court at one point last game.

    So I don’t think it’s that crazy to panic when he has bad games. I mean 1 game, probably too soon, but still.

    Also, he should be in better shape/more ready than the vets. Presumably he’s been pushing himself getting ready for private workouts ahead of the draft. They’re not games but he and Quickley should be more game ready than the vets.

  284. The problem with Obi is that this is kinda supposed to be it with a 22yo.

    The optimist POV is that he came to the game late, and that he’s now working with the greatest big man whisperer who ever lived in Kenny Payne. So he’s in theory not as fully baked as your average 22yo rookie. And there were a bunch of plays in the first game that just delighted me to see the fluidity and unselfishness and court vision.

    The pessimist POV is that some of the flaws that were on his tape from Dayton (particularly the stiff hips and the problems they create for him on defense) may not be fixable even with the world’s greatest coaching, that he has to shoot 3s much better than he did in game 2 (which, again, second game of an abbreviated preseason, so don’t read too much into it) to be a great offensive big in the modern game, and that the team much more desperately needed somebody like Hali or Vassell or Sadiq Bey than it needed Budget Amar’e.

  285. Meh, if two 3-pointers, literally two shots, bounce in instead of out in Sunday’s game everyone would be saying Obi was off to a pretty good start. I know we all have Knicks-related PTSD and are inclined to see the storm of the century at the first gathering gray cloud, but you just can’t make a judgment off this sample size.

  286. Yeah, for me I’m more concerned about the 4 rebs in 20 min than the shooting.

    And it is ridiculous to worry about 20 min. But generally I guess the point I’m trying to make is that each game is a little more pressing with Obi to see a very talented player or at least an NBA player.

    We can’t just “lol, Knox maybe shoots? Eventually?” with Obi.

    Maybe I’m feeling a little more desperate with Obi since so many of our recent picks have failed to prove themselves

  287. Obi will be fine. People were gushing over him after the first game. Then he had a bad game. He literally just started his NBA career. The idea that a 22 year old rookie who is in the preseason is a finished product or even close to a finished product is ridiculous.

  288. Early Bird: And it is ridiculous to worry about 20 min. But generally I guess the point I’m trying to make is that each game is a little more pressing with Obi to see a very talented player or at least an NBA player.

    Don’t get me wrong every time I see those stats about guys his age picked in the lottery I throw up a little in my mouth. I’m in agreement with you that he needs to show at least competence this year or we’re probably in some trouble. And I don’t have anything against over-analyzing 20 minute samples; as the saying goes, it’s a big part of what we do around here, and ultimately it would be a pretty boring forum if we only dissected statistically significant sample sizes. It’s just important to keep a sense of perspective as we do it.

  289. If you want to argue that everyone who follows sports closely is complicit in some degree of unethical behavior, that’s sensible. Making the logical leap from that to “no one who follows sports has standing to criticize a known rapist in Damyean Dotson” is a total crock of shit, and conveniently absolves you of having to grapple with your own feelings, assuming you have any.

    I have not read the reports. Do they give Dotson’s side of the story as well as the accuser’s side of it?

    Then perhaps you shouldn’t have weighed in so strongly. Most of the accounts I’ve read on the matter quote Dotson extensively.

    Having said all of this, I do believe in one’s ability to change even after doing something heinous. I am not saying Dotson should be banned from employment, or even basketball related employment, for life. I have no perfect answer to all of the questions presented, but I do know that I wasn’t comfortable rooting for him and Rose at all and nothing about being a sports fan in general makes those feelings invalid.

  290. The problem with Obi is that this is kinda supposed to be it with a 22yo. He should improve some, but really needs to show he’s a positive almost immediately. He was the oldest Knick on the court at one point last game.

    This is where I am, and why I think starting Randle over him is a more fraught decision than it may seem. Between his position and age, part of the appeal of drafting Obi was supposed to be that he would provide more value than the average player on his rookie scale deal. Treating him like a 19 year old both strips him of his ability to do that and deprives us of a full ability to evaluate him.

    It also means that if it’s even close early on between him and the guys we passed over for him (e.g. Haliburton and Vassell), that’s a terrible sign for Obi. He should be blowing those guys out of the water production wise right now, with them having a chance to catch up later.

  291. We can’t just “lol, Knox maybe shoots? Eventually?” with Obi.

    Nah, Obi already has a much higher floor than Knox. His post game alone is so much more advanced than anything even the occasional good version of Knox (summer league, Rookie of the Month) has displayed. He may be a bad pick, but he won’t be someone whose continued presence in the league by his third season seems questionable.

  292. Z-man: I believe that Dotson is a special case.

    All cases are special cases.

    Frank O.: The DSJ, Frank, Knox era in NY should be over already.

    +1

    thenoblefacehumper: am not saying Dotson should be banned from employment, or even basketball related employment, for life. I have no perfect answer to all of the questions presented, but I do know that I wasn’t comfortable rooting for him and Rose at all and nothing about being a sports fan in general makes those feelings invalid.

    Another +1

  293. I also believe Thibs when he says the focus on training camp was defense and not offense. A lot of coaches say that stuff before the season starts but with Thibs I believe it. I expect the offense in general to be wonky for the first part of the season at least and for him to rely on the starting unit that closed out the year for a bit.

    Thibs and Rose are on a different timeline than the fans. I know Thibs doesn’t want to tank and will try to win every game he can but I also suspect he knows how far this roster has to go before it can really compete. His star comments yesterday were taken out of context but the point remains that ultimately until we have a star, we aren’t going to be good. Maybe RJ emerges as that guy this year or we draft that player or we do swing a trade for one. But I believe Rose and Thibs will be patient. The knicks twitterverse and social media world is going to panic over this stuff and the challenge for them will be not to give in to it. Its one of the reasons why I’m glad there won’t be fans. Not having to hear the boo birds this season will hopefully give them time to grow this thing at a slower, more organic pace.

  294. @NY_KnicksPR
    Injury Report for 12/16 vs. Cleveland: Michael Kidd Gilchrist (illness) and Austin Rivers (sore right groin) are out; Frank Ntilikina (sore left Achilles) and Nerlens Noel (sore left knee) are doubtful.

    Mitch is probably gonna start, Quickley gonna get significant minutes (and/or that DSJ will get one last One Last Chance), and we’ll probably see at least a Spellman cameo. (That, or much more of Knox at the 4, which is the only circumstance under which I still care to see Knox.)

  295. I have a much bigger problem with, “I wasn’t there, so I don’t know what happened. Also all journalism is useless and you should only read primary sources. But the police report is not a primary source that holds any weight to me because I wasn’t there.”

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/university-of-oregon-complaint-rape_n_5331120

    University was notified of the alleged rape on March 9, followed by the VP of Student Affairs sending a memo claiming that the university’s student conduct policies were “out of step with federal laws.”

    Holmes’ memo suggested that the university was holding sexual assault cases to a prohibitively high standard of evidence, thus putting alleged victims at a disadvantage.

    And where’s Strat to tell me how the “real world” works?

    Freyd believes the university violated the Clery Act, a campus security law, by not creating a police log when the alleged victim’s family first reported the gang rape to the UOPD. She further believes, as stated in the complaint, that the school violated the law a second time by not issuing a campus-wide alert that they had received a sexual assault report, “particularly when [UO] learned a week later that one of the alleged perpetrators had a prior report of sexual assault at a prior college.”

    Lane County District Attorney Alex Gardner decided on April 14 not to file criminal charges against the players, saying it was not because he did or did not believe the reported victim, but because there was insufficient evidence to prosecute. In a lengthy statement released to the press, Gardner repeatedly questioned why the woman did not take action stop the alleged assault while it was happening.

    Real world: Imagine being a victim of an alleged rape by three athletes towering over you and the prosecutor asks you why you didn’t try to stop them.

  296. thenoblefacehumper: Looks like we’ll get all the Mitch we can handle, maybe some Spellman too.

    There’s no amount of Mitch I can’t handle and wouldn’t shoot directly into my veins. The issue is with Mitch’s hands.

  297. https://media.oregonlive.com/ducks_impact/other/14-04131.pdf

    Here’s the police report of the rape, which happened in three different locations, with details on her crying, being put in a “chokehold,” repeatedly saying no, and reporting that Dotson “[bragged] about what he and the guys did. He said, she was crying, maybe because we fucked her too hard.”

    Also, the alleged rapists went to a mutual acquaintance in the athletics program, “Cassie,” and asked if the victim was “going to go to the cops.” I wonder why they had that conversation.

    What a guy.

  298. thenoblefacehumper: Having said all of this, I do believe in one’s ability to change even after doing something heinous. I am not saying Dotson should be banned from employment, or even basketball related employment, for life. I have no perfect answer to all of the questions presented, but I do know that I wasn’t comfortable rooting for him and Rose at all and nothing about being a sports fan in general makes those feelings invalid.

    In general, I don’t hold athletes up to be role models and have rooted for some who have had known allegations, and even convictions for serious offenses. Again, I think Dotson is a special case. It’s a complicated discussion involving age, race, class, criminal justice in a racist society, athletes and privilege, clarity regarding specific circumstances, mitigating factors, character outside of the incident, and behavior post-incident. For me, I don’t think our final judgments about anyone’s life should boil down to a decision made on a single night at the age of 19. Damyean can’t change the decisions he made that night. Nothing he has done in the aftermath of the incident, either just afterwards or ever since, has given even the faintest hint of entitlement or sociopathy. If he is not worthy of redemption, then does the concept really exist?

    In short, I don’t think the Damyean Dotson of that night exists any more. I would have no problem hiring to work in my school (i.e. would stake my onw reputation on him) unless I learned something additional beyond what I already know.

  299. Mitch has a ceiling. At this point I think he could be a top-20 center in the NBA, a legit starter. Currently he’s a notch below. But the question has to be asked, does he have the intelligence and is he coachable enough to stop committing idiotic fouls? I’m OK with him getting called on someone driving on him in the lane while he’s protecting the rim, but damn it! He must stop with the stupid fouls.

  300. Damyean can’t change the decisions he made that night. Nothing he has done in the aftermath of the incident, either just afterwards or ever since, has given even the faintest hint of entitlement or sociopathy. If he is not worthy of redemption, then does the concept really exist?

    also he gangraped a woman

  301. “I believe that each person is more than the worst thing they’ve ever done.”
    – Bryan Stevenson

    The perspective of people like Stevenson on the front lines of creating social change inspire me to try to see how to both challenge myself and others to make the world safer and more just, while not discounting the full humanity of perpetrators. It’s hard – back when I practiced psychotherapy, women with PTSD from domestic violence was a specialization. The tendency toward anger and toward writing off people who commit those acts as a separate irredeemable group is strong. It’s driven by a desire to protect the innocent and vulnerable but also by a need to defend our self-image from the idea that we’re capable of such things. That defensive impulse distorts the view of the perpetrators and suggests simplistic and ineffective ideas about what drives the acts we want to prevent.

    It takes a lot of self control to press hard for justice and healing while resisting the temptation to view anyone who’s ever crossed a red line as just another member of a shady group that few want to look at up close.

    I can’t do it very often. Mostly I think of the human cost and need for action and am very willing to make simplifying judgments that clarify the moral turf and who’s on which side of the battle. But Stevenson and others like him remind me of what’s lost in giving in to that impulse and why it’s worth the effort to try to follow their lead.

  302. The Honorable Cock Jowles: also he gangraped a woman

    To be fair (and I’m not taking sides) you did nIt answer the question. Does rehabilitation exist in your opinion? Would we rather have DD (or any other young person who we will presume as guilty) rehabilitated to the degree it SEEMS DD has and positively contributing to society or in jail? His position as an athlete notwithstanding.

    It’s a perfectly reasonable question.

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