Knicks Morning News (2016.10.31)

  • [NYDN] Derrick Rose and Knicks face early test with schedule
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 5:13:35 PM)

    We’ve already seen what the Knicks look like with LeBron James on the court and when they get three days of rest.

  • [NYDN] It’s early, but Knicks have avoided crisis mode once already
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 7:11:40 AM)

    Perhaps you already forgot that the Knicks once fired Lenny Wilkens’ top aide, Dick Helm, after the second game of 2004-05 season.

  • [NYPost] How Carmelo’s 4th-quarter backseat shows Knicks’ potential
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 7:01:57 PM)

    There was a decided difference in the Knicks game Saturday compared to most of those in recent seasons — beyond the fact the Knicks won. In the fourth quarter, the Knicks had options, not just Carmelo Anthony. Oh, when matters in the eventual 111-104 home-opening victory over Memphis got tight, Anthony delivered perhaps the biggest…

  • [NYPost] Brandon Jennings revives D’Angelo Russell scandal: He’s a ‘snitch’
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 3:55:01 PM)

    Brandon Jennings hasn’t forgotten. The Knicks guard said he doesn’t respect D’Angelo Russell after the Lakers’ young, skilled point guard last year recorded teammate Nick Young confessing he had cheated on his fiancee in a video that later showed up online. Jennings, the 27-year-old in his first year in New York, was having a Q&A…

  • [NYPost] This is the Courtney Lee he wants Knicks fans to know
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 1:21:59 PM)

    Courtney Lee can now forget his opening night as a Knick. Lee’s first Knicks effort was a mess Tuesday in Cleveland. He shot 0-of-5. The Knicks stunk. Some guys say you just forget and move on, that the sting can be quickly forgotten. Not Lee. The bitter taste remained. It wasn’t like he got over…

  • [NYTimes] Sports Business: One-and-Done System Gets a Documentary. Call It a Farce.
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 11:58:07 PM)

    Ben Simmons, the subject of “One & Done,” knew that he would enter the N.B.A. draft after one season at Louisiana State. So why pretend?

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: A Knicks Opponent Offers Derrick Rose a Low-Profile Role Model
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 4:10:05 PM)

    The Knicks’ versatile attack on Saturday against the Grizzlies underscored that they need Rose to be more like the understated Mike Conley Jr. than an M.V.P.

  • [NY Newsday] Kristaps Porzingis showing more poise, maturity in second season
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 7:51:52 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis needed to gather himself a couple of times during the Knicks’ home opener. But he’s no longer a rookie, so it wasn’t that difficult.

  • [ESPN] Monday’s Knicks News: In second season, Porzingis showing more poise, maturity
    (Monday, October 31, 2016 4:41:03 AM)

    Monday’s Knicks News: In second season, Porzingis showing more poise, maturity

  • [SNY Knicks] Will Joakim Noah make a greater impact than Robin Lopez?
    (Sunday, October 30, 2016 9:37:01 AM)

    Joakim Noah’s versatile and eye-opening efforts in the Knicks’ Saturday night win over Memphis beg the question: will he make a bigger impact than Robin Lopez did last season?

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    180 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.10.31)”

    1. This whole Rose “discussion” started off with various posters saying “I know we have zero sample size but look at Rose’s stats over 60 minutes of play – they confirm exactly what we thought about him. Oh, and “disclaimer” – I know I have no basis for making any sort of conclusion but there it is, and you can’t call me on it because I put this disclaimer in”.

      It is and was an asinine argument and now it’s metastasized into a long annoying thread that thankfully is now over.

      You can twist 60 minutes of stats into anything you want. I could easily say that the anti-Rose crowd was SURE that due to his decreased athleticism, he can’t finish around the rim anymore — but lo and behold, he’s shooting 64.7% from inside the paint! His athleticism is BACK!!! And his jumper (the reason his overall eFG is low, shooting 1 of 10 from midrange so far) is SURE to come back because he’s turned into a pretty good mid-range shooter. Last year he shot 42% from midrange – so if he had just shot his average from midrange, shooting 4 of 10 rather than 1 of 10, his eFG would be 58.3% and his TS 56.7%. MVP Rose is BACK!!!!!

      See how ridiculous this is?

    2. People commented on how Rose played the night before, AKA badly, and a slew of people took the position that 13 points on 13 shots and 3 assists in 32 minutes is actually secretly good for reasons us people who never watch the games could never truly understand. They weren’t defending Rose based on the sample size being too small to draw any conclusions (reasonable), they were actually arguing that he has played well in said small sample size (absurd). When there was pushback on the latter idea, they then resorted to the small sample size defense, which is fine, but contradicts the position that he’s actually been good.

    3. Now you arer just lying. But ok.

      So there weren’t multiple people arguing in yesterday’s thread that Rose actually played well against Memphis?

    4. @1 Oh my god, THANK YOU. I felt like I was taking crazy pills, and of course, lo and behold, the second comment was to say “nah, Rose was totes terrible against Memphis.”

      Do you all recall how many times last year’s starting PG (who many here still swear is superior to Rose) scored 13 or more points and dished out 3 or more assists in a Knicks win? Spoiler alert: TWICE. It happened two f*cking times.

    5. From what I read yesterday, against the Grizzlies, Rose was horrible, Jennings was awful, Thomas was brutal, Melo was inefficient, bad and selfish, O’Quinn made a couple good passes but, overall, was terrible, Hernangomez proved once again that he is not ready for NBA minutes, Porzingis didn’t rebound at all, and Noah was great, but couldn’t stay on the court. Courtney Lee and Justin Holliday must have been other-worldly, since that is the only possible explanation for the Knicks’ scoring 111 points and beating a team that has won two of three games.

    6. Rose was far from terrible against the Grizzlies. He started and finished the game in nice form.

    7. By the way, that stat on Max Hooper — in his senior year in college, he attempted 257 shots and every single one was a three pointer — just might be the most amazing stat I’ve ever seen. In an entire season, playing almost 25 minutes a game, there wasn’t a single instance when he got ahead of the field on a fast break, there wasn’t a single instance when he had a clear path and decided to drive to the basket and there wasn’t a single instance when he accidentally had his toe on the line. That seems impossible, but apparently it’s not.

    8. The first 2 games are large enough of a sample size for one conclusion: the Melo trade is finally passe. We are firmly in the Rose trade era.

    9. You gotta love a young player like Max Hooper (what a name!) who has the common sense to never take an inefficient shot.
      Like ever.

    10. I’m kind of in on Max Hooper. I hope to see him make the team one day. It’s more of a fascination than a belief that he’ll be good but who knows? Shot selection does not appear to be an issue.

    11. In 4 years he too 440 shots, 429 of which were 3’s. That’s incredible. Steve Novak is jealous.

    12. Again the only stat that matters is a W.

      Efficient or not, Rose is an option to get buckets. And buckets matter in a basketball game. I know this is really hard for the stats people to understand since they can’t put the ball in the basket In their own life. But we have a team where Melo doesn’t have to be the man. Rose can score. So can Zinger. So can Lee.

      If you look at the scoring breakdown we didn’t have a single person who took more shots than points made. Even inefficient rose took 13 to get 13. The scoring was pretty evenly distributed too.

      Instead of talking about how great zinger was in the first half. Or how nice rose looked on that sick crossover move. Or how well Noah passed the ball or how great we looked on the fast break. Or how nice holiday looked in his minutes or how well Lee played, the wet blankets bitches about rose being inefficient when we freaking won the game! And were basically in control of it from the jump. Against a team we’ve lost 6 straight to. So yeah, screw you guys for not being fun and not enjoying a W.

    13. That is one of the strangest facts about a player I’ve ever heard. Not a single 2-pointer? Not one time someone ran out at him, he faked, took a dribble and pulled up for a long 2? Unfathomable.

      Meanwhile, the article on Ron is nothing special, but check out the picture of KP with Horacek:

      http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2016/10/28/13462788/knicks-practice-notes-ron-baker-injured-his-ankle-all-hope-is-now-lost

      I think it’s hard to process just how much bigger KP is than almost everyone else on the court.

    14. Efficient or not, Rose is an option to get buckets. And buckets matter in a basketball game. I know this is really hard for the stats people to understand since they can’t put the ball in the basket In their own life. But we have a team where Melo doesn’t have to be the man. Rose can score. So can Zinger. So can Lee.

      Arguments like this are disappointing, because there are real nuances to the argument about how accurate a picture stats give you of a game, but this isn’t it. “Efficient or not” is a losing argument. Everyone on the team is an option to give you buckets; those who do it more frequently, with fewer turnovers, are better options and make it more likely the team will win.

      I agree that people are being ridiculous talking about how two games show…well, anything about Rose at all. But countering that “buckets matter” as an argument is equally ridiculous.

    15. I agree that people are being ridiculous talking about how two games show…well, anything about Rose at all. But countering that “buckets matter” as an argument is equally ridiculous.

      Has anyone said anything negative about Rose’s play this year without qualifying it by referring to the tiny sample size? The more concerning sample size is the two full seasons prior to these past two games.

    16. winning the game is fine.. but there are some dark clouds surrounding rose….

      for the folks hoping for mvp rose to come back…. we are fast approaching the point where hoping for that >.300 ftr rate to return is a pipe dream… we might actually be there already…. and if his ftr rate is going to sit in the .100s then it’s going to pretty fun with a usg rate of 25%….

      and yes two games is probably too small of a sample to draw most conclusions.. but ftr and usg actually converge fairly quickly to true rates… we don’t need 10 games to figure out if rose either returned to form or actually recreated himself…

    17. Efficient or not, Rose is an option to get buckets. And buckets matter in a basketball game. I

      That’s why missing shots is not good.

    18. Obviously, it’s ridiculously early in the season, especially for a guy that missed a lot of pre season like Rose. I think we’ll know more after about 20 games.

      People that are impressed by a fancy handle, good moves to the basket, tough shot making etc.. were probably impressed by what they’ve seen from Rose so far. People that want to know how a player’s skill set transfers to production on the court haven’t seen anything that they didn’t see from Rose last year when he wasn’t very good.

    19. Am I the only one that noticed this?

      When KP is playing PF, he can’t guard the smaller quick PFs on the perimeter (they blow right by him) and when he’s playing with Noah, he plays on the perimeter on offense most of the time and can’t take advantage of the size difference inside.

    20. for the folks hoping for mvp rose to come back

      Nobody is expecting this. Even the most optimistic of Rose prognosticators aren’t projecting more than at best league average starter level play.

    21. Again the only stat that matters is a W.

      Efficient or not, Rose is an option to get buckets. And buckets matter in a basketball game. I know this is really hard for the stats people to understand since they can’t put the ball in the basket In their own life. But we have a team where Melo doesn’t have to be the man. Rose can score. So can Zinger. So can Lee.

      ………….

    22. Does KP have a post game yet? He really didn’t last year.

      If he’s going to play PF and they are going to throw smaller faster guys at him, he better get one.

    23. Yeah, that’s why I want Kareem to come coach him. He definitely needs a move or two to use on little guys in the post. In Europe he was primarily a catch and shoot player, I think. He would have been too weak to post up grown men, even though he was a lot taller than most guys.

      Kristaps is going to be an interesting player to watch develop. Most really good big guys are really good early on in their career, but KP has a much different skill set.

    24. Yeah Cock, that’s directed at you. Explain to me how I’m wrong?

      I don’t give a flying F about your stats. I want W’s. Prove to me how I’m wrong? Prove to me how being the guy who scores 11 points in one quarter when the other team is making a comeback is somehow misguided or unimportant. You can’t. All you can do is be condescending and snarky bc we obviously don’t get it and you do.

    25. The way it translates to production on the court is that he can score. So others (Melo) don’t have to all the time. 13 points on 13 shots isn’t horrific. He also didn’t turn the ball over the entire game and played good defense. Two steals and a block. That’s kinda nice, no? He was + 6.

      Its really simple. Someone has to score. When one person (Melo) is expected to score all the time, he has to play more and can’t be efficient and its easy to focus all the attention on him. When a team has the guys that can score, efficient or even not so efficient (and he wasn’t that inefficient), then it helps the team win. Rose scored 13 points on 13 shots and 11 of them came in one quarter when no one else on our team was capable of scoring. Zinger was great in the first half. Lee was great in the first half. Melo scored throughout. KQ and Holiday scored off the bench. Rose scored in the 3rd quarter. We had contributions from lots of people so Melo didn’t have to carry the load and we won.

      And the assists thing doesn’t matter to me. Melo got 4. Noah got 7. The team as a whole had a bunch of assists. So the ball was moving. Rose doesn’t have to have a high assist rate to be good for this team. Its about the role he plays on our team. He can get to the paint and score. That’s important. He doesn’t have to kick it out even bc just that threat means on other plays dudes like Melo and KP are gonna have an easier time bc the defense can’t just focus on them. Its not rocket science.

      I will say, though, I agree that its nice to not have Melo be the divisive player on this boar. I’m sure he’s relieved. :)

    26. Yeah, that’s why I want Kareem to come coach him. He definitely needs a move or two to use on little guys in the post.

      He needs to chill out with the crossover bullshit. For the time being he needs to keep it simple and realize he’s 7’3″, learn how to use his body to create space when he receives the ball with his back to the basket to turn, face up and pop a jumper. Once he does that a lot of things will open up for him.

      Let’s remember young KG, a player I think KP would do very well to emulate in his scoring style, did very little besides catch for 18-20 foot jumpers and attack the rim when guys closed out too aggressively. It wasn’t until a few years later KG added some post moves and became a higher usage top option.

      Even then I think KP has shown tremendous growth early on in finishing at the rim and he’s only 21. There’s plenty of time for him to figure out how to leverage his size better against smaller players and also add post moves to his repetoire. He’s still able to get up shots with ease because of how his skill set allows him to play off the ball.

    27. Was having an argument with friends over Rose trade. My stance is we could have not done the trade and still have signed Noah.

      Lopez and grant would come off the bench.

      Question is, with the extra dollars from the difference of rose vs Lopez, who is the best fit at starting PG with the rest of the current starting 5?

    28. @Lavor Postell

      I Agree he needs to stop with the crossover. Its basically pointless. He’s 7’3 just go up stronger. And His 3 Ball hasnt been connecting. He really Needs to find more consistency on Jumper.

      Rose’s defense has been good so far. The ball is still ticking in Melo’s hands entirely too long. He needs to give the ball up after missed shots and let the guards push it. He’s still trying to bring the ball up. Thats annoying. I hope Phil and Jeff speak to him AGAIN about that. Let Rose push it on the break and fill the lane. Flare out for 3’s & than maybe we’ll see some more Assists.

      And the spacing is still not great. Not many great Driving lanes. Rose is creating really from nothing. Imagine when they start playing KP at the 5 with Rose. More driving lanes. More assists.

      Small ball Lineup
      Rose
      Lee
      Holiday
      Melo
      KP

    29. KP needs to rebound much better for these small ball lineups with him at the 5 to be used more than just situationally. He had 0 rebounds in the 2nd half against Memphis I believe. That’s not good enough for somebody at his size. He does a really poor job of boxing out.

      At the 4, next to Noah it’s not a major issue, but if he’s playing at the 5 it becomes a much bigger problem. Also, like most young bigs his defensive awareness, particularly in PNR, isn’t the best which gets exposed a ton at the 5. His biggest problem at the 4 is mostly a bad tendency to leave his feet on any pump fake when, again, he needs to remember he’s 7’3″ and doesn’t need to jump to contest shots well.

      Worth repeating though, he’s 21. I suspect these things can and will improve.

    30. That crossover what meant to be used against 5s. He destroyed Clint Capella with it in the pre season, but he absolutely has to rebound better in order for him to be used against 5s

    31. The crossover looks forced. Its like a premeditated thing he’s doing. It’s cute but not really necessary.

    32. KP’s skill set theoretically lends itself to so many different things that I think he’s having some trouble figuring out what to focus on in his development. It seems like the consensus is he should develop a workable post game, a reliable 3PT shot, and better rebounding instincts right now and I’m inclined to agree. I do see some potential in his ball handling at the 5 becoming a serious asset at some point but there’s no reason to be messing around with it now.

    33. Yeah Cock, that’s directed at you. Explain to me how I’m wrong?

      I don’t give a flying F about your stats. I want W’s. Prove to me how I’m wrong? Prove to me how being the guy who scores 11 points in one quarter when the other team is making a comeback is somehow misguided or unimportant. You can’t. All you can do is be condescending and snarky bc we obviously don’t get it and you do.

      I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a “stat” is intended to accomplish. I’ll try to make this as sterile and objective as possible: basketball is a game comprised of a fluid series of athletic events. To be able to better process these events, which take place over 48 minutes of play, after they’ve occurred, scorekeepers defined certain events as having a binary value, e.g. whether a player released the ball in a scoring attempt (FGA), whether the ball went in (FGM), whether he were standing at the free throw line after a foul (FTA) or whether he gave possession of the ball to the other team without resulting in a scoring attempt (TO).

      What people like Dean Oliver found is that while these statistics are necessarily incomplete with regard to the information they provide (i.e. an in-and-out wide-open corner three miss is given the same binary value as an 80-foot heave airball, i.e. FG missed), we can generally aggregate them on a team level and compare them to the other team’s values to determine who won the game. So while, yes, whoever scores the most points wins the game, we can generally pick the winner based on who scores more efficiently, who has more total scoring possessions (i.e. net ORB and TO), and who has more free throws made per FGA. This fact is indisputable.

      When you say, “Only a win matters,” it’s a total disregard of the things that a player does to produce that win, because a win is an aggregation of many disparate elements — events — on a basketball court.

    34. KP’s skill set theoretically lends itself to so many different things that I think he’s having some trouble figuring out what to focus on in his development. It seems like the consensus is he should develop a workable post game, a reliable 3PT shot, and better rebounding instincts right now and I’m inclined to agree. I do see some potential in his ball handling at the 5 becoming a serious asset at some point but there’s no reason to be messing around with it now.

      We agree completely. This is weird. Idk, I think we should just argue about it though so this doesn’t become a normal thing lol.

    35. To put it another way:

      You’re at a restaurant and you’re asking the waiter, “Does the sandwich taste good?” while everyone else is asking what’s on it.

      Derrick Rose is the stale bread, and for some reason you think the bread is good just because it’s accompanied by some premium Latvian salami and aged Swedish/French cheese.

    36. If you look at the header of this blog, it says this:

      “Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.”

      So when somebody is all “I don’t care about stats, the only stat I care about is wins,” well, that’s kind of going against the spirit of the whole blog. Talking about the Knicks from a statistical perspective is kind of what we do here.

    37. Question is, with the extra dollars from the difference of rose vs Lopez, who is the best fit at starting PG with the rest of the current starting 5?

      Good question. How about Ramon Sessions? He signed for 2 years/$12 million and was exponentially better than Rose last year. That was a career year so it’s safe to assume he won’t necessarily maintain that level of production, but his career numbers would still represent an enormous upgrade over Rose at a fraction of the cost in dollars and no cost in trade assets.

    38. To put it another way:

      You’re at a restaurant and you’re asking the waiter, “Does the sandwich taste good?” while everyone else is asking what’s on it.

      Derrick Rose is the stale bread, and for some reason you think the bread is good just because it’s accompanied by some premium Latvian salami and aged Swedish/French cheese.

      Nah, in the case of nit-picking a player’s TS% after two games (a sample so laughably small, the difference between abhorrent and amazing is like, one missed FG per game) and complaining after a win, it’s more like turning up your nose at a perfectly serviceable, and some would even say very tasty, sandwich because it isn’t kosher, i.e. because it doesn’t conform to your dogmatic (but irrelevant to most of us) rules about what a sandwich should or shouldn’t be.

    39. Re: how Rose played the other night – and I am NOT saying he played great. But saying that his performance was the same old inefficient Derrick Rose? Not sure about that. 13 points on 13 FGA and 2 FTA and zero turnovers = 13 points on 13.88 possessions = 0.94 PPP. If he had hit his 2nd free throw, it would have been ~ 1 PPP.

      Kyle Lowry in the 2015-16 season = 1634 points on 1198 FGA, 491 FTA, and 225 TOs = 0.98PPP

      James Harden in 2015-16 = 2376 points on 1617 FGA, 837 FTA, 374 TOs = 1.01 PPP

      Kyrie Irving in 2015-16 = 1041 points on 879 FGA, 191 FTA, 124 TOs = 0.96PPP

      Russell Westbrook in 2015-16 = 1878 points on 1444 FGA, 573 FTA, 342 TOs = 0.92 PPP

      Mike Conley in 2015-16 = 857 points on 696 FGA, 229 FTAs, 84 TOs = 0.96 PPP

      Overall ~1 PPP out of high usage guys is not that bad. People here are infatuated with eFG and TS which are certainly important, but Rose having zero turnovers despite having the ball in his hands most of the time adds a lot to his “efficiency” in terms of possessions used and points scored. He didn’t have many assists, but he did have 2 steals, a block which he recovered (essentially a steal in terms of possessions), and an offensive rebound, so he essentially created 4 extra possessions for the team in addition to not giving away any with TOs.

    40. winning the game is fine.. but there are some dark clouds surrounding rose….

      for the folks hoping for mvp rose to come back….

      Dark clouds? What are you talking about?

      And you do realize that not a single person here thinks he’s going to approach his MVP form, and that’s fine, because the Knicks don’t need him to be an MVP candidate?

    41. Has anyone said anything negative about Rose’s play this year without qualifying it by referring to the tiny sample size? The more concerning sample size is the two full seasons prior to these past two games.

      And re: this — even the most ardent Rose supporters have never said that his last 2 seasons were statistically good. But any time you look at stats, you have to see whether your sample is an appropriate and relevant sample. For instance, if you’re a 40 year old person trying to decide whether to take a particular blood pressure medication, and you find a study showing this drug worked great but only in people >85 years old, is that a useful study for you to look at?

      in Rose’s circumstance, that’s exactly what the Rose supporters are saying — that for various reasons, we don’t think his play from the last 3000 minutes will be predictive of the next 3000 minutes. Yes, he was playing basketball, and his name was Derrick Rose, but because of an orbital fracture, rust, blah blah blah we expect him to play better this year.

      Again – no one is arguing that he played well last year or the year before.

    42. “Wow, do you people with Derrick Rose Derangement Syndrome even listen to yourselves!”

      The objective view of Derrick Rose is one that has been a bad basketball player, given his stats post-injury. The burden of proof is on his supporters, not his detractors, to show that Rose is a productive basketball player. And I’m sorry the eye test for one game (or one half of one game) isn’t sufficient to prove that Rose is back to his MVP-level production.

      Also I’d like to point out the argument that whether the Knicks have recently won means nothing to this argument. I don’t care if they win by 40 and Rose scored 28 points on 7 shots with 10 assists. Only Rose’s long term production can overrule the prevailing notion that Rose is inefficient.

      Next, derangement is a mathematical term which means “disturbance of the regular order or arrangement of parts in a system.” Hence it’s only logical if you’re going to apply it, to do so in the proper fashion. If your proof is to eschew mathematics, then don’t accuse the other side of “derangement.” In fact I’d argue that anyone who thinks Rose is productive, despite his stats showing otherwise is suffering from DRDS.

      Finally, I admit the possibility that Rose might revert to his pre-2012 self. However squinting at a 47% ts% isn’t going to make it 53%. Nor is 2 games statistically significant. He’ll need to perform well over a period of time to show he’s back to his old self. Or at least to show he is not his 2013-2015 self.

    43. Talking about the Knicks from a statistical perspective is kind of what we do here.

      The anti-Rose crowd is abusing the concept of statistical analysis (chiefly by selectively ignoring sample size) to take cheap shots at a player you’d already decided long ago that you hate.

      Rose couldn’t possibly have contributed to the fact that the team as a whole posted a .596 TS against Memphis, and that the ball moved well (24 assists on 40 FG, and a 2:1 AST/TO ratio). Nope, it took him 13 FGA to score 13 points and he only personally got 3 assists hurr durr same old Rose, he sucks, move along folks, nothing to see here… The rejoinder that wins are actually the most important statistic can probably be read as an invitation to pull your head from your rear.

    44. Nah, in the case of nit-picking a player’s TS% after two games (a sample so laughably small, the difference between abhorrent and amazing is like, one missed FG per game) and complaining after a win, it’s more like turning up your nose at a perfectly serviceable, and some would even say very tasty, sandwich because it isn’t kosher, i.e. because it doesn’t conform to your dogmatic (but irrelevant to most of us) rules about what a sandwich should or shouldn’t be.

      I’m absolutely not nit-picking his TS% or any other stat (aside from the jab about whether his 0.0 VORP will ever rise [unlikely]) from this small a sample.

      I’m standing well against the posters who think that those small samples represented anything other than what we should reasonably expect from Rose, given the previous 3,500 minutes played. Don’t tell me those games were good, that’s all.

    45. Remember the Bargs trade guys wasn’t he coming off injury and a bad situation in Toronto and all he needed was a change in scenery haha

      I’m less interested in talking about Rose trade than I am about Rose himself (the former was prima facie eh-to-bad [the second rounder is nice] but will be hard to accurately judge until we have a sufficient amount of hindsight, the latter we have no reason to believe isn’t absolutely trash until he proves otherwise.)

    46. So, the Pistons are the Knicks’ next opponent. They’re 2-1 so far, with the two wins easy ones against weak sisters Orlando and Milwaukee and the one loss a blowout against a strong Toronto team.

      They are missing one of their best players, PG Reggie Jackson, and in his stead they are running out a crummy Ish Smith/Beno Udrih platoon. So far their best players have been Tobias Harris, who has been playing out of his mind, and Andre Drummond, who has been doing his typical Andre Drummond thing. They’re not a team that jumps out at you with their star power, but the consensus among Pistons fans is that Stan Van Gundy has them looking good on the defensive end and that they have a lot of guys who are very capable “switch” defenders.

    47. I don’t know why anyone would be excited about Max Hooper, since penetration is the primary way of creating scoring opportunities. He’s obviously the antithesis of scoring.

    48. Also can’t staps won’t stops is swiftly becoming one of the more obnoxious, obtuse posters on this board

    49. They’re not a team that jumps out at you with their star power, but the consensus among Pistons fans is that Stan Van Gundy has them looking good on the defensive end and that they have a lot of guys who are very capable “switch” defenders.

      Playing against Milwaukee and Orlando has a way of making your defense look good. They got lit up by Toronto. I’m cautiously optimistic about our chances if we get a similar effort on both ends to what we saw against Memphis.

    50. Noah’s passing is really a sight to behold. He might be the best passing big we’ve ever had.

      David Lee is the first thought that comes to mind. Not going to compare them after 2 games, and not sure I’ll have an opinion one way or another even after this season.

      But it’s great to watch.

    51. David Lee is the first thought that comes to mind.

      Really? It’s always Big Snacks for me.

    52. I don’t know why anyone would be excited about Max Hooper, since penetration is the primary way of creating scoring opportunities. He’s obviously the antithesis of scoring.

      lol – he was playing with Kay Felder, wasn’t he? Maybe Max Hooper wouldn’t have gotten so many good looks at 3 pointers if not for Kay Felder’s penetration. Or maybe Kay Felder wouldn’t have had such an easy time penetrating if not for Max Hooper’s gravity. Or maybe there are interactions that are difficult to quantify that affect players’ stats? Nah.

    53. The anti-Rose crowd is abusing the concept of statistical analysis (chiefly by selectively ignoring sample size) to take cheap shots at a player you’d already decided long ago that you hate.

      No. The anti-Rose crowd is using the concept of sample size to base their reasoning. Rose’s overall stats from the 3527 minutes from 2013-2015 is much more valid than the one game and the team stats you’ve chosen to base your logic on.

    54. And I’m sorry the eye test for one game (or one half of one game) isn’t sufficient to prove that Rose is back to his MVP-level production.

      And here you go again. Nobody is claiming he can or will return to MVP contention. That has never, ever, ever been the hypothesis so please stop moving the goal posts. Competent, effective play as the starting PG for a playoff bound team is the ceiling for Derrick Rose. Nobody has claimed otherwise and nothing that has transpired so far this season suggests he can’t clear that bar.

    55. The rejoinder that wins are actually the most important statistic can probably be read as an invitation to pull your head from your rear.

      Don’t clog the bases now, young’ns!

    56. And here you go again. Nobody is claiming he can or will return to MVP contention.

      lol I think they are projecting or something

    57. Remember the Bargs trade guys wasn’t he coming off injury and a bad situation in Toronto and all he needed was a change in scenery haha

      Remember Bargs multiple All-Star selections and Olympic medals and league MVP award? That’s funny, neither do I. It’s almost like Derrick Rose and Andrea Bargnani are not comparable!

      Also can’t staps won’t stops is swiftly becoming one of the more obnoxious, obtuse posters on this board

      I’m sorry, chief. I’m sure it’s tough for someone who broadcasts his status as a “hater” in his handle to reconcile that not everyone is reflexively aghast at literally everything Derrick Rose says or does.

    58. No. The anti-Rose crowd is using the concept of sample size to base their reasoning. Rose’s overall stats from the 3527 minutes from 2013-2015 is much more valid than the one game and the team stats you’ve chosen to base your logic on.

      Haha, do you not even read your own blog? Go back to yesterday’s thread and tell me nobody was saying “Derrick Rose’s TS% after the first two games blah blah blah.” Nobody needs to be reminded that Derrick Rose has not been good for the past several years, just as nobody needs to be reminded that Derrick Rose was remarkably good for the several years preceding that. A lot of people do seem to need to be reminded that this season’s sample size tells us absolutely nothing. And those same people could stand to spare everyone the “told ya so!!” performance art after a WIN in which Rose played FINE.

    59. “Penetration” is the new “floor spacing” or “tilting the defense.” The intangible thing that nobody can put a value on, but that is super important and makes Player X more valuable than he appears to be.

      I’m not saying those things don’t have value. They do have value. My point is that incurable unrealistic optimists like ruruland place a value on those things that is very, very high. The argument goes like this: Melo might not be an efficient scorer, but his “tilting the defense” ability makes the overall conditions on the floor better for everybody else. Ditto the “floor spacing” of a guy like Bargnani. In the case of Bargnani, it’s probably not fair to ding ruru for that because Bargs’ play was so awful it was not a fair test of whether the “good” version of Bargs would have been a beneficial player to the Knicks’ offense.

      If the Knicks are a top 10 offense this year then I will have to re-evaluate everything I think about the game, because it will mean that yes, guard penetration is indeed just that crucial to NBA success, and has more value than I had previously assumed. If the Knicks’ offense is bottom 10, I will feel like it confirmed what I already believed, that the rurulands of the world were exaggerating the importance of this intangible thing. I’m a statistical-minded person, and a skeptic by nature. Show me empirical evidence of things.

    60. No. The anti-Rose crowd is using the concept of sample size to base their reasoning. Rose’s overall stats from the 3527 minutes from 2013-2015 is much more valid than the one game and the team stats you’ve chosen to base your logic on.

      Well, the 2013-2015 sample size is certainly LARGER. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a valid sample given the eye injury, rust after not playing years, and possibly some level of psychological stuff preventing him from going full bore. I don’t know. But Dwyane Wade had a knee injury in 2006-7, then played 2000 minutes in 2007-8 registering a WS/48 that was 1/3 of his previous level. That’s a reasonably large sample, right? And yet he was pretty darn good after that.

      Again, the anti-Rose crowd is probably right. No one thinks he’ll return to 2011 Derrick Rose, but can he be a pretty good player? No one knows. Maybe it’s improbable, but the the degree to which it’s improbable is impossible to know. David Chao (@profootballdoc) has told me that there’s nothing about Rose’s injuries that would prevent him from returning to an approximation of his previous level of athleticism. So if he can get his athleticism back, it’s just a matter of him finding where he fits in the system and overcoming whatever mental blocks he has to contact. It’s unknown – that’s why it’s so interesting/infuriating to talk about, and is why we watch.

    61. Anthony Mason could pass a little bit….

      No reason to get bogged down with Rose. I think we all will be able to make an objective, collective judgment at the 20 game mark, Then, when PJax tries to sign him to a long term deal, we will rise together as one to storm the MSG offices.

    62. “Penetration” is the new “floor spacing” or “tilting the defense.” The intangible thing that nobody can put a value on, but that is super important and makes Player X more valuable than he appears to be.

      You know, they are starting to quantify it based on Sportvu — “gravity”. Just because you don’t know how to quantify it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

      http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/11744634/explaining-gravity-basketball

      http://insider.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/12097042/steph-curry-leads-2014-15-respect-rating-ranks-nba

    63. No reason to get bogged down with Rose. I think we all will be able to make a objective, collective judgment at the 20 game mark, Then, when PJax tries to sign him to a long term deal, we will rise together as one to storm the MSG offices.

      +1000!!!!!

    64. lol – he was playing with Kay Felder, wasn’t he? Maybe Max Hooper wouldn’t have gotten so many good looks at 3 pointers if not for Kay Felder’s penetration. Or maybe Kay Felder wouldn’t have had such an easy time penetrating if not for Max Hooper’s gravity. Or maybe there are interactions that are difficult to quantify that affect players’ stats? Nah.

      Are you saying scoring in professional basketball is a complex system, and hence trying to extract certain parts, like penetration, is an impossible task given the information at hand?

    65. You know, they are starting to quantify it based on Sportvu — “gravity”. Just because you don’t know how to quantify it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

      I said it DOES exist. I’m saying that people like ruru, who doesn’t know how to quantify it either, give those things a LOT of weight. Like, a LOT.

    66. And here you go again. Nobody is claiming he can or will return to MVP contention. That has never, ever, ever been the hypothesis so please stop moving the goal posts. Competent, effective play as the starting PG for a playoff bound team is the ceiling for Derrick Rose. Nobody has claimed otherwise and nothing that has transpired so far this season suggests he can’t clear that bar.

      Addressed by my last sentences from the same part you are quoting.

      He’ll need to perform well over a period of time to show he’s back to his old self. Or at least to show he is not his 2013-2015 self.

      The default position is that Rose has been a bad basketball player for 2 years, and hence that’s the default stance going forward until proven otherwise.

    67. Are you saying scoring in professional basketball is a complex system, and hence trying to extract certain parts, like penetration, is an impossible task given the information at hand?

      Difficult? Yes.
      Impossible? probably not.
      Worthwhile? definitely.

    68. He’ll need to perform well over a period of time to show he’s back to his old self. Or at least to show he is not his 2013-2015 self.

      Right. Which is why the anti-Rose, “told you so” brigade would do well to put a lid on it. Citing his 2-game TS in order to say “see, same old Rose” is both asinine in general and unseemly in the context of discussing a game Derrick Rose very definitely helped the team win.

    69. No reason to get bogged down with Rose. I think we all will be able to make an objective, collective judgment at the 20 game mark, Then, when PJax tries to sign him to a long term deal, we will rise together as one to storm the MSG offices.

      Precisely.

    70. He’ll need to perform well over a period of time to show he’s back to his old self. Or at least to show he is not his 2013-2015 self.

      Right. Which is why the anti-Rose, “told you so” brigade would do well to put a lid on it. Citing his 2-game TS in order to say “see, same old Rose” is both asinine in general and unseemly in the context of discussing a game Derrick Rose very definitely helped the team win.

      I don’t think you understand.

      For instance, let’s say a bakery makes pies. You buy the apple pie & it’s delicious. You get a pie a month for 3 years and it’s delicious. Then the chef gets hit by a car. And for 2 years there is no apple pie. When the chef returns, the apple pies return. But the pies are not delicious. The owner gives reasons for it. The chef still isn’t 100% and they can’t make the pies like they used to. After 2 years the pies still are bad. You’ve tried the pie often (because it’s the only bakery near you ) it’s been consistently bad for those 2 years.

      Then the owner sees you on the street & says the chef is better now – they are healed from their injury (and their rape case has been settled) — come try a pie! You buy one, and after 2 bites, the pie is bad tasting. To your eye, the pie looks like it should taste good, but after 2 bites it’s been a little worse than average.

      Should you expect the rest of the pie to taste bad?

    71. Then the owner sees you on the street & says the chef is better now – they are healed from their injury (and their rape case has been settled) — come try a pie! You buy one, and after 2 bites, the pie is bad tasting. To your eye, the pie looks like it should taste good, but after 2 bites it’s been a little worse than average.

      Should you expect the rest of the pie to taste bad?

      Uh, you forgot to mention that this chef is no longer working for the same bakery, one which had an incompetent general manager and notoriously poor maintenance staff (coach and med staff, for those following along at home). Instead, he’s not only healthy once again, he’s got a brand new boss espousing a new management philosophy as well as a dozen new co-workers, several of whom are more talented than anyone who ever worked at his old bakery.

      Not that it seems to matter, since there are still some people out there who hate the chef irrationally, and have decided before the first bite of his pie that it tastes terrible. And while it’s impossible to say for sure, it’s pretty likely there is a substantial overlap between the people who reflexively spit out his pie and those who claim he “settled” a rape case when, in fact (since we’re being very precise about the definition of words here in this thread), he did not settle but rather went to court and exonerated himself.

    72. after 2 bites it’s been a little worse than average.

      Mike, that is not the context to the original presentation of the infamous “2 game sample size” point. If someone had framed it like you had, that these two games are meant to be added to Rose’s past two seasons in Chicago, we probably wouldn’t be having a this vigorous of a dialogue about it.

      Instead, here’s the original statement:

      It’s only two games. Maybe Rose plays better. It’s certainly very possible that he could play a lot better than he has so far.

      That said, he has a .472 TS% and a .450 eFG%. He has 4 assists and 4 turnovers. That’s not “fine” and that’s not productive. That is poor play.

      “It’s a only an extremely small sample size, but I’ll present the sample anyway.”

      “No offense, but I’m going to say something offensive.”

    73. Looking at what any player has done over 2 games to reach a conclusion as to how that player has played over those two games is perfectly fine. Rose has not played that well.

    74. I mean, a small sample size does not render it impossible to analyze what happened within that small sample size. Rose played badly in the two games. The sample size is small so it doesn’t mean he’ll play badly in the next 80, though the 3500 minutes prior to these two games might give us a legitimate hint as to what’s coming.

    75. Yo cant staps, it’s all about r/nyknicks my dude

      So then why aren’t you over there, my dude? Personally, I find the Knicks subreddit to be sorely lacking in condescending analogies, embittered non-basketball related axe-grinding (you can practically set your watch to the frequency of this board’s “statistical analysis” of Derrick Rose devolving into someone calling him a rapist), pathological pessimism, and self-congratulatory statistical cherry-picking used to prop up a predetermined narrative. But thank you so much for the recommendation.

    76. Mike, that is not the context to the original presentation of the infamous “2 game sample size” point. If someone had framed it like you had, that these two games are meant to be added to Rose’s past two seasons in Chicago, we probably wouldn’t be having a this vigorous of a dialogue about it.

      But the minute you mention Rose, in the context of the NBA, his whole career is added to the conversation. And yes 2 games is a bad basis for anything. Rose could have a ts% of 60% over 2 games, and that would mean nothing.

      However when his 2 games is similar to his most recent career averages, doesn’t that show that over those 2 games hes played pretty darn similar to what he has done over those 2 seasons?

      Going back to pie — if the problem is that historically the pies are bland and those 2 bites are bland, it would seem to indicate the rest of the pie will be bland? Maybe those two bites were delicious — and it might not mean much, because you’ve had a delicious bite here & there over those 2 years, and 2 delicious pies does not a delicious pie make.

      But that’s its the same bland taste as you expected should signify something, no?

    77. A bunch of people: Rose was good against Memphis
      Me: Nah, not really
      A bunch of people: Fuck you, dude

    78. I mean, a small sample size does not render it impossible to analyze what happened within that small sample size. Rose played badly in the two games. The sample size is small so it doesn’t mean he’ll play badly in the next 80, though the 3500 minutes prior to these two games might give us a legitimate hint as to what’s coming.

      LOL. The small sample size doesn’t matter as long as I can see in the numbers whatever I want. Derrick Rose played badly in both games, if you discount the one game where he played fine and the team played fine and won. Isn’t statistical analysis fun?

    79. Uh, you forgot to mention that this chef is no longer working for the same bakery, one which had an incompetent general manager and notoriously poor maintenance staff (coach and med staff, for those following along at home). Instead, he’s not only healthy once again, he’s got a brand new boss espousing a new management philosophy as well as a dozen new co-workers, several of whom are more talented than anyone who ever worked at his old bakery.

      Ok fine. All this happened as well. New grocery, new stove, new mixer, yada yada. Our chef has everything Bobby Flay does. Now can you answer the question?

      You take two bites and the pie tastes bad. Should you expect the rest of the pie to taste bad?

    80. Man…..this is so weird how many days off the Knicks have had. Please for some more basketball.

    81. You take two bites and the pie tastes bad. Should you expect the rest of the pie to taste bad?

      I don’t know, what’s “bad?” Is playing poorly against the defending champs in what is the functional equivalent of your second preseason game that big of a sin?

      Did Derrick Rose actually play “bad” in game two? He was the engine that powered an offense that collectively posted a .596 TS, a 2:1 AST/TO ratio, and 24 assists on 40 FGs. He didn’t turn the ball over once and outplayed Mike Conley, he of the $150,000,000 contract. In his third game. With a new everything.

      If that performance is “bad” (and again, the difference between his “bad” TS against Memphis in game two and a “good” TS is literally one made FG), then it just further supports my point. His haters here are determined to see nothing but the worst and are going to stack the deck and move the goal posts as much as necessary to tell themselves they were right.

    82. His haters here are determined to see nothing but the worst and are going to stack the deck and move the goal posts as much as necessary to tell themselves they were right.

      I think more goal post moving is required to argue that 13 points on 13 FGAs and 3 assists is totally acceptable play from a max contract guy who you traded two assets for, but that’s just me.

    83. @Dough Chew

      Would it also be offensive if someone pointed out how badly Jeff Teague has played this season? Are we just not allowed to make any observations about these games? I don’t see how saying, “Derrick Rose hasn’t played well these first two games,” is some offensive thing. Do you refuse to read game recaps? Because every one of them is based on a sample size of just one game yet the writers are always bold enough to say, “Players x, y and z didn’t play well and players a, b and c did.”

    84. @110

      I think it’s more of the mountaintop declaration that’s annoying. He was fine against a solid Memphis team and a top tier PG. He even blocked one of Conley’s layups. He had no turnovers and put heavy pressure on the defense. Us in the so called Pro Rose crowd just don’t understand how you can say he sucked after helping the team win. It’s a disconnect somewhere, and it seems it’s that the anti Rose crowd is hell bent on being right

    85. I was wondering what I was going to do come next Wed, when I can no longer watch my friends scream at each other on facebook about the election. I guess I can come here and watch you all discuss D Rose.

    86. This is the time when Ted Nelson, Jon Abbey, Robert Silverman, Jim Cavan and other posters are sorely missed.

      Even Mike Kyrulo’s infrequent posting is a contributing agent to the new lows this blog is constantly reaching nowadays.

      The cheerleader squad has taken over and that’s all there is, ladies and gentlemen!

    87. Man…..this is so weird how many days off the Knicks have had. Please for some more basketball.

      I think they have three games in four nights this week.

    88. Did Derrick Rose actually play “bad” in game two? He was the engine that powered an offense that collectively posted a .596 TS, a 2:1 AST/TO ratio, and 24 assists on 40 FGs.

      So the pie tastes delicious because the coffee was good?

      I don’t know, what’s “bad?”

      It’s pretty obvious at this point, you don’t understand the meaning of the word.

    89. @111

      It depends what you’re judging. If you’re judging blankly how well the trade has paid dividends in two games, sure… If you’re judging Phil Jackson’s logic, I don’t think so. Justin Holiday is a guy I was hoping we’d sign in summer 2015. He ended up going for nothing ($1m/year) to the Hawks and then playing 770 minutes all season, producing just as he had the year previous in GS — competent play on both sides of the floor. If Jackson coveted him at all, he would have been willing to outbid $1m and bring him to NY. Since he didn’t, it’s pretty unlikely Holiday’s inclusion in the trade had any real meaning to PJ.

    90. You know what’s nice? Having guards who cut like they might actually want to receive a pass and get to the rim. Rose, Holiday and Lee cut hard to the basket as opposed to the slow jogs you generally got from Calderon, Afflalo and Galloway. That gets defenders pinching in (or at least turning their heads) and leads to ball moving/scoring opportunities. The Knicks had very little of that last year.

    91. @er 112,

      This is what I was reacting to from Dough Chew: “No offense, but I’m going to say something offensive.”

      The comment he quoted basically said, “You can’t tell much from two games, but here are Rose’s numbers from the two games. They aren’t good.”

      What Dough Chew seemed to be implying that quote said is, “You can’t tell much from two games but you can tell a lot from two games, and these numbers prove he sucks.”

      He’s seeing something that’s not there.

    92. @117 I’m sorry but that makes no sense. If Jackson didn’t want him, he wouldn’t have gotten him

    93. @Nicos, yeah I was impressed by the offense as a whole last game. They managed to alleviate spacing issues by getting down the floor and into the offense quickly and prolonging the semi-fast break another 5 seconds or so with good cutting and ball movement. Defenses still looked like they were defending a fast break even 10 seconds into the shot clock.

      Some pretty crazy stats regarding touch time so far this season: Knicks are shooting half their shots with sub 2 second touch times at an eFG% of 60.5%. 2-6 second touch times make up 34% of their shots and provide an eFG% of 34.5%. 6+ second touch times yield an eFG% of 40.4%.

      I worry that this is unsustainable as teams get smarter about the fact that Rose and Noah aren’t scoring threats though. I also think a lot of this semi-transition offense is dependent on getting stops and turnovers. We’ll see how the Knicks do against some better offensive teams (Detroit isn’t one of them, fortunately).

    94. Hornaceck said that they targeted Holiday in negotiations.

      You have to include how Holiday is playing and whatever the 2nd round pick amounts to when judging the trade. It’s not just “Rose for two assets”.

    95. @kevin5318 props to Hornacek then. Or whoever made that decision. It’s a shame we decided we wanted him after we couldn’t sign him to a long term deal… Would be thrilled to have Justin Holiday at 4 years, $8m or whatever. Unfortunately, we’re i nteh same situation with him as we were with Galloway, Afflalo and Derrick Williams last season. He plays well, he costs more, he plays bad, he’s not worth more.

    96. I mean if (many, not all) rose optimists are willing to ignore the 3500 minute sample of terrible play why shouldn’t the rose pessimists feel free to shit on Rose and extrapolate off of two games? You can’t act sanctimonious about sample sizes when you’re trying to make the case that the prior 3500 minute sample is irrelevant lol. And it’s just a little bit tempting to make a bad argument using the same poor logic that the apologists are using.

      When good argument is ignored on one side all is permitted. Maybe we should just, you know, acknowledge that there’s no reason to assume that rose will be good until he gives us reason to do so and we can move past this interminable slog of an offseason.

      And Rose wasn’t good against Memphis–he was mediocre at best. Sorry!

    97. I mean if (many, not all) rose optimists are willing to ignore the 3500 minute sample of terrible play why shouldn’t the rose pessimists feel free to shit on Rose and extrapolate off of two games? You can’t act sanctimonious about sample sizes when you’re trying to make the case that the prior 3500 minute sample is irrelevant lol

      Who said it’s irrelevant? He wasn’t good. Idk who denied that.

      And Rose wasn’t good against Memphis–he was mediocre at best. Sorry!

      But this was the arguement. The OP said he sucked. Mediocre and sucking are not the same. That’s our arguement. You guys keep moving goal posts so fast it’s making my head spin

    98. And Rose wasn’t good against Memphis–he was mediocre at best. Sorry!

      If we can all agree on this, I’m sure the Rose pessimists would be happy to wait until midseason ’til the “told you so” chatter starts up again. At least from this keyboard warrior, I’m sayin’.

    99. Is anyone ignoring the fact that he sucked the last few years? We are hoping he plays closer to how he did after the all star break last year.

      This should be reasonable since he isn’t coming into the season with any knee problems or a broken face.

    100. “Is anyone ignoring the fact that he sucked the last few years?”
      The real question is, will he suck more than Calderon and Grant did last year?

      I think there is a reasonably good chance Rose will be an upgrade over Calderon & Grant. He is certainly more athletic and can get to the rim better than the two of them put together. The jury is out on his Bball IQ, shooting, and passing…. the season is still young, there is hope. (somewhere between reub and THCJ)

    101. 1) Everyone is free to say whatever stupid shit they feel like saying
      2) Everyone is free to criticize stupid shit others are saying.

      @4 – thenoblefacehumper

      So there weren’t multiple people arguing in yesterday’s thread that Rose actually played well against Memphis?

      If there weren’t, I’ll be the first.

      Well is a relative term. He did not play well like MVP-Rose. He absolutely played well compared the the 2015/16-Calderon.

      Rose’s performance on Saturday was what I expect out of him.
      Rose did not perform well against Cleveland.

      I’ll also point out that I identified the Rose vs. Conley match-up as the key just as the game started. I feel that Rose outplayed Conley significantly. Considering the cost-value of point guard free agents, the trade is looking good. Consider that we could have blown our entire wad of cash on Conley this off-season. I worry that we’ll lament do not have an established point guard signed through next year and the year after. We are scraping $27M off the cap next season with Rose and Jennings coming off.

      And yes, I think that everyone that was ready to tank and fire Horaceck after losing to Cleveland are too reactionary (read: out of your minds).

    102. And yes, I think that everyone that was ready to tank and fire Horaceck after losing to Cleveland are too reactionary (read: out of your minds).

      Yeah, uh, nobody said that.

    103. I wanted to tank in 2014 but that’s not the way the old cookie crumbled. I have long given up on the idea that the New York Knicks would ever do anything other than build around veteran free agents.

    104. Instead of 100+ posts about every game Derrick Rose plays, I say we amp it up a notch and post after every shot he takes. Was it a good shot or a bad shot? Efficient or inefficient? Selfish or team-oriented? Does he truly suck or not?

      And then Mike’s head will explode….

    105. “He’ll need to perform well over a period of time to show he’s back to his old self. Or at least to show he is not his 2013-2015 self.

      Right. Which is why the anti-Rose, “told you so” brigade would do well to put a lid on it. Citing his 2-game TS in order to say “see, same old Rose” is both asinine in general and unseemly in the context of discussing a game Derrick Rose very definitely helped the team win.

      I don’t think you understand.

      For instance, let’s say a bakery makes pies. You buy the apple pie & it’s delicious. You get a pie a month for 3 years and it’s delicious. Then the chef gets hit by a car. And for 2 years there is no apple pie. When the chef returns, the apple pies return. But the pies are not delicious. The owner gives reasons for it. The chef still isn’t 100% and they can’t make the pies like they used to. After 2 years the pies still are bad. You’ve tried the pie often (because it’s the only bakery near you ) it’s been consistently bad for those 2 years.

      Then the owner sees you on the street & says the chef is better now – they are healed from their injury (and their rape case has been settled) — come try a pie! You buy one, and after 2 bites, the pie is bad tasting. To your eye, the pie looks like it should taste good, but after 2 bites it’s been a little worse than average.

      Should you expect the rest of the pie to taste bad?”

      WTF!!!…that’s gotta be one of the craziest (and entertaining) analogies i’ve run across…it does make sense though…

      I think the hope is (similar in some ways to melo) – is that the chef starts to use a new recipe for success…hopefully, like melo – drose will come to the realization that he needs to switch up the recipe and put more penetration, assists and rebounding into his pies than his own personal scoring…

      if drose can cook up a pie with 12 to 16 points, 5 to 7 assists/rebounds per game (maybe even get to the line every once in a while) – that would be very tasty indeed…

    106. Unfortunately, we’re i nteh same situation with him as we were with Galloway, Afflalo and Derrick Williams last season. He plays well, he costs more, he plays bad, he’s not worth more.

      So is your whole thing that we should only sign good players at well below market value and if they prove to be worth more than that we shouldn’t pay them? It’s actually ok to pay guys if they’re good. A lot of teams around the league do that.

    107. So is your whole thing that we should only sign good players at well below market value and if they prove to be worth more than that we shouldn’t pay them? It’s actually ok to pay guys if they’re good. A lot of teams around the league do that.

      Did you watch the Blazers last year? Did you see Ed Davis, Aminu, Plumlee, Crabbe and McCollum as major contributors on a 44-win team?

      Take a guess on this one. Who made more money last year: Carmelo Anthony, or the above five players combined?

      Take another guess. Aside from Varejao, who was on their payroll but didn’t play a game for the Blazers last year, what was the highest salary on that 44-win roster, and who earned it?

    108. Jowles they paid Crabbe and McCollum this summer. Thanks for making my point for me. If Holiday is good we should pay him and keep him assuming it makes sense for us.

    109. Take another guess. Aside from Varejao, who was on their payroll but didn’t play a game for the Blazers last year, what was the highest salary on that 44-win roster, and who earned it?

      Hmmm my guess is Aminu at $7.5m

    110. That’s what happens when you get close to contention. When you’re throwing bad contracts at players like Lance Thomas? Nah. Don’t do that.

    111. Take a guess. Who is way over the cap for the foreseeable future the Knicks or Blazers?

    112. That’s what happens when you get close to contention.

      44 wins, beating a depleted Clippers team and taking a game off of the Warriors when Curry was out isn’t close to contention.

    113. Can’t we all agree to just reserve judgment on how good Rose is for THIS team until..say..Dec 15? And that he did actually look good against Memphis compared to the other roughly 3k minutes post injury? I don’t get all the hand-wringing. Let’s just say he did pretty well and move on. We’re not gonna know anything about Rose as it pertains to this particular team until a month or so into the season. Any proclamation about Rose and his ability on this team is…well..to quote Jowles, is purely CONJECTURE.

      The debate about Rose needs to chill until December. There’s alot of new guys on this roster. It’s ridiculous to say “WOW! NOAH’S FRICKIN AWESOME ON THIS TEAM!” or “WOW! ROSE FRICKIN SUX ON THIS TEAM!”, after only 2 games. Game 1, neither played particularly great. Game 2, they looked really good. And that’s all we should be saying at this point. A brand new 5 man unit takes time to jell, and we should afford them that time without passing judgment- favorable or otherwise- BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN RELATIVELY NOTHING AFTER 2 GAMES.

    114. This argument started because people were calling Rose responsible for the strong play by the rest of the team during the Grizzlies game. That’s just batshit insane.

    115. @128, agree wholeheartedly. I fail to understand why this reasonable stance is so hard to comprehend for the Rose detractors, specifically the hardcore statistical/empirical heads. Like it or not, he’s the starting point guard on this team. I find it irrational that there are some on this board who hope he suffers another catastrophic injury, because you perceive his value to be worse than Jose $%*%#ing Calderon.

      Whether you statheads like it or not, reasonable people can utilize context to infer from Rose’s statistics, another reality equally as rational and plausible as yours. Those of you who worship at the altar of stats maybe choose to ignore that context or don’t think its relevant, and that’s fine. You see the cold numbers for what they are. You reasonably infer that the knee injuries have sapped whatever made him a dynamic, although inefficient all-star, and you have all the stats in the world to prove it. You believe due to the sample size post injury, that this reasonable inference is the new Derrick Rose reality, and there’s no way you can be convinced otherwise.

      I and others disagree with you and reasonably infer from those same stats, the contextual background that perhaps the physical and psychological toll of two devastating knee injuries, likely surmountable for today’s modern athlete, may take more time than the cold stats you fervently cling to. That perhaps you take into consideration the unique factor of everyone’s ability to cope with potentially life altering injuries , since you know, athletes aren’t robots like your cold hard numbers suggest, but flesh and bone human beings. We choose to view the post all-star break numbers from last year, as a potential indicator of what we may be possible going forward. We may be right and you may be wrong, or vice versa. Regardless, why not try to enjoy the season because you know, its full of possibilities and we’re all fans of the Knicks! Apologies for the long rant.

    116. That perhaps you take into consideration the unique factor of everyone’s ability to cope with potentially life altering injuries , since you know, athletes aren’t robots like your cold hard numbers suggest, but flesh and bone human beings.

      I was wondering when your post would sound like an old-school, stats-hating baseball writer from the mid-aughts. There it is.

    117. I was wondering when your post would sound like an old-school, stats-hating baseball writer from the mid-aughts. There it is.

      Needs more Eckstein

    118. So I hadn’t looked at Knickerblogger all day. I get home and check in and see a 149 comment thread.

      “Oh man,” I think, “we must have traded Rose for a bag of potatoes.”

      So I read the latest comments to get a general idea of the thread and find out, nope…same argument from this entire summer.

      So I start at post #1 and read this:

      It is and was an asinine argument and now it’s metastasized into a long annoying thread that thankfully is now over.

      and just laughed and laughed and laughed.

    119. @150
      Amen. I just got through reading (well, skimming after about post 40 or so) the thread. 80 games to go!

      Trick or Treat!?

    120. @148 Ha! Believe it or not, I do see the utility in a majority of the stats you base your analysis on. But I also think your dogmatic over reliance on them can sometimes be annoying and myopic. But that’s just my unenlightened opinion. Regardless, like I said in my initial post, I’m okay with the possibility that Rose may prove you right. And if and when he does, you can be content with the knowledge that you and your fellow quants were the smartest of us all.

    121. I was wondering when your post would sound like an old-school, stats-hating baseball writer from the mid-aughts. There it is.

      It’s not an argument about stat-hating. It’s an argument against looking at stats in a vacuum, without considering environmental factors. I thought ILoveHatetheKnicks post was cogent and logical.

    122. I am now craving apple pie! There’s nothing sweeter than apple pie – OK, a Knick championship would be sweeter. I’ve been settling on pie for a while.

      I think Clyde the rabbit should become our board mascot.

      Reub, you had me looking all over the place for Randle news. Duh, he’s on the W-Knicks.

      I want to know the name of the scout that would recommend we draft I’ll-Never-Drive-To-The-Hooper to the D-league team. He must be growing some good stuff in his attic.

    123. Look, if you don’t understand that Jose Calderon has been more productive than Derrick Rose the last few years than you don’t know what you’re talking about. Doesn’t mean he’ll be worse this season, but it’s not a perception, it’s reality. You got to be realistic about things.

    124. We actually could use a guy with Max Hooper’s skillset. Over whom, though? I don’t know. Holiday’s defense and opportunistic shooting? Sasha’s veteran know how and ability to play and defend both guard spots? Baker’s surprising all around game on both ends? I could see him as a Korver type- a guy we run off of screens and set up with open 3’s. The question is, is he nothing more than a smaller Novak? And if so, is he good enough at it to carve a role to where we can actually use him?

    125. This will teach me never to take shots at Derrick Rose after a Knicks win.

      All I said was that I just don’t see the athleticism. Never even brought up stats.

      Anyway, 20 games…

    126. It’ll always be that his recovery is coming along but not yet “there,” or that he needs a sports psychologist and he’ll again have the courage to dunk the ball, or that the triangle does not suit his strengths, or that he needs better teammates, or a new coach, or a larger sample to prove himself.

      I think I could list a dozen posters who will never say, “Derrick Rose sucks at basketball,” even if he posted a .400 TS% and a negative WS/WP/BPM for the year. Blame gets deferred.

    127. @163

      Yeah, except statistical analysis of the comments would reveal that to be untrue – more like 1 or 2 posters (and I’m not sure Reub, reverse troll, counts). Which means that in the context of this board, you’re the one who refuses to acknowledge reality. Mind blown…

    128. So the pie tastes delicious because the coffee was good?

      Rose’s performance was instrumental to a very good team performance. You think pie is an ingredient in coffee? Remind me never to eat at your house (and no wonder you’re not sounding so sharp…).

    129. And Rose wasn’t good against Memphis–he was mediocre at best. Sorry!

      If we can all agree on this, I’m sure the Rose pessimists would be happy to wait until midseason ’til the “told you so” chatter starts up again. At least from this keyboard warrior, I’m sayin’.

      To be fair, this thread kicked off with one person saying “[The Rose debate] is and was an asinine argument and now it’s metastasized into a long annoying thread that thankfully is now over,” which, lol, but then the very next comment said “but he sucked hard against Memphis and is completely terrible.”

      As a Rose optimist I am *fine* with “mediocre” as a description of his performance against Memphis. Great? No way. Good? Eh. But yes, perfectly mediocre, which is a level of play we virtually never got from Jose Calderon and Jerian Grant and moreover encouragingly mediocre considering 1) the game-by-game improvement 2) the strong team performance against a tough opponent 3) this ridiculously early point in the season. It’s easy to watch “mediocre” early returns like that because it’s obvious there is still massive room for improvement and seems probable that this brand new team’s (Rose included) execution on both sides of the ball will almost definitely get batter after, you know, the third game. I, for one, and excited for that.

      And for Christ’s sake, if we’re going to draw wild conclusions from a single game stat, his usage against Memphis was 19%. Nineteen! Percent! That should at least be cause for celebration amongst the anti-Rose contingent.

    130. Would it also be offensive if someone pointed out how badly Jeff Teague has played this season?

      Yes, I would have side eyed that assertion all the same.. (I was not actually offended by the 2 game sample, don’t worry.)

      I didn’t like the Rose trade. I thought it was a poor use of two of the sparingly few trade assets the Knicks had. I’m crossing my fingers and hoping that he puts up league average numbers and then we cut him loose after this year.

      I’m not yet Team Optimist or Team Pessimist on Rose, I’m with Owen on Team WAIT TWENTY HECKING GAMES.

    131. It’ll always be that his recovery is coming along but not yet “there,”

      Except nobody is saying that, certainly he isn’t. He is recovered. This is the first summer he hasn’t spent rehabbing an injury in years. Future health is not guaranteed, of course, but his knee injuries were not degenerative conditions and there’s nothing to actually suggest he’s due for another. This is a make or break year for Rose precisely because he doesn’t have that excuse or any other. He is 28, starting a year healthy, with a new coach that supports him and some very talented teammates. The preseason games he missed will matter less and less as time goes by. If ever he were going to succeed the time would be now.

    132. [The Rose debate] is and was an asinine argument and now it’s metastasized into a long annoying thread that thankfully is now over,” which, lol, but then the very next comment said “but he sucked hard against Memphis and is completely terrible.”

      What the next comment said was ” they were actually arguing that he has played well in said small sample size (absurd).”

      That’s true.

      But yes, perfectly mediocre, which is a level of play we virtually never got from Jose Calderon and Jerian Grant and moreover encouragingly mediocre considering 1) the game-by-game improvement 2) the strong team performance against a tough opponent 3) this ridiculously early point in the season.

      If we define mediocre as slightly below average, there is lots of evidence suggesting Jose Calderon was at least mediocre last season.

      1) It’s been two games

      2) I’m not sure how much credit Rose should be given for a strong team performance compared to the guys who actually played well.

      3) It is early in the season, and it is true that playing badly means you have lots of room to improve. This is not actually a good thing.

    133. “If we define mediocre as slightly below average, there is lots of evidence suggesting Jose Calderon was at least mediocre last season.”

      Well, as I already mentioned, Jose Calderon gave us as many as 13 points and 3 assists en route to a Knicks win a grand total of two times last season. That number drops to a nice round zero if you factor in that Rose didn’t turn the ball over at all last night.

      “1) It’s been two games”

      Uh huh. You know who has not even played two games? The combination of Jose Calderon and Jerian Grant, despite the fact that their teams have played a total of five.

      “2) I’m not sure how much credit Rose should be given for a strong team performance compared to the guys who actually played well.”

      It’s virtually impossible for an offense to hang 111 points on the Grizzlies if the starting PG plays poorly for 32 minutes and his back-up plays even worse, so…

      “3) It is early in the season, and it is true that playing badly means you have lots of room to improve. This is not actually a good thing.”

      You know who absolutely does not have any room for improvement? Jose Calderon. But I not only said room, I said probability, and yeah I have infinitely more faith in 28 year-old, healthy Derrick Rose to be a competent starting NBA PG than I do in either of Calderon or 24-year old failure to launch Jerian Grant.

    134. It’s virtually impossible for an offense to hang 111 points on the Grizzlies if the starting PG plays poorly for 32 minutes and his back-up plays even worse, so…

      This is a bizarre argument and I… I just can’t.

      Here’s a game in which the 2013-14 NBA Champions (3rd in DRtg) were beaten by a team whose starting PG played exactly 32 minutes and scored 6 points on 18 (!) true shot attempts.

      http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201311270OKC.html

      Arbitrary endpoints alert: In fact, in 6 of Westbrook’s 7 worst games according to GmSc (which rewards volume scorers, hi) that year, the Thunder won.

      The next season, future Hall of Famer and 8-time All-NBAer Chris Paul went 2-11 from the field and 1-4 from the line for 5 points, giving 3 turnovers to — you guessed it — the 2014-15 New York Knicks (the worst team in franchise history?), but his team won the game?

      How’d they do that!?!?!?!?

      Turns out that basketball is a team sport, and even though one player can dramatically lower your team’s chances of winning, another player can dramatically increase it — especially in a single fucking game.

      I don’t understand how it’s 2016 and we’re still having the same fucking conversation we had in 2009-10 about different players. This shit makes my brain hurt it’s so stupid.

    135. Apparently, Adams, on the Thunder, will get a four year contract of $100 million. By that standard, Noah’s contract, four years for $72 million, seems very reasonable.

    136. Apparently, Adams, on the Thunder, will get a four year contract of $100 million. By that standard, Noah’s contract, four years for $72 million, seems very reasonable.

      Adams is eight years younger than Noah and has improved his stats each year since entering the league. He could very well be an All-NBAer in a season or two.

      I’m not saying that Adams is a steal at $100M or anything, but what are you talking about, dude?

    137. This year, I think Noah will be just as good, and maybe next year too. After that, Adams will probably be significantly better, but we will be paying less. I’m not saying Noah’s a steal, far from it, but I don’t think he’s overpaid by today’s standards, which was my point.

    138. He’s probably not overpaid right now, but at age 35 he almost certainly will be, unless he’s got Tim Duncan blood.

    139. I used to agree with that, but now I am not so sure. Salaries may be much higher in four years. This blog has said something similar about every contract Phil had given out (that they are or will be overpaid), and so far every contract has proved reasonable. What’s more, other teams have paid more for Galloway and maybe Williams than the Knicks were willing to. So while I have been unhappy with some trades, I’m starting to trust Phil’s judgement when it comes to money.

    140. The cap is projected to be basically flat over the length of Noah’s contract (shrinks a little, grows a little) while his contract keeps growing, but of course we won’t have solid details until the new contract comes out.

      I dunno, I thought Rose played okay. Mediocre, about the level you’d expect based on his performance the last few years now that’s he’s totally healthy. Drives to the vicinity of the basket instead of the basket, not much passing out of his penetration, ect. Reasonable effort on defense. The offense didn’t seem to run through him much, which worked out pretty well.

      I liked that Horny had the confidence to experiment with lineups through the middle after we went so solidly up in the first. The Grizzlies did not appear to have their shit together at all though. Of course they’ve got a new coach and no real way to prepare for the Knicks considering the lack of tape.

    141. Let’s give Rose the 4th assist on the drive and kick to a wide open Melo 3 that was halfway down before rimming out. There, he had an average night.

    142. How’d they do that!?!?!?!?

      Wow, great job Jowles! You found the magic exceptions that disprove the rule. Good point guard play doesn’t have anything to do with good team offense! Why do they even have those guys, lol, they barely get any rebounds and they miss so many shots??!?

      And by the way, I’m pretty sure we’ve established that 6-13 from the field with 3 assists, 2 steals and a block without turning the ball over once is “meh” at worst, not some abominable performance that the rest of the team needs to struggle to overcome.

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