Knicks Morning News (2016.06.22)

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Wednesday's Knicks Links: Phil Jackson won't opt-out after 2016-17 season (Wed, 22 Jun 2016 05:21:54 EST)

    Wednesday's Knicks Links: Phil Jackson won't opt-out after 2016-17 season

  • [New York Times] History of N.B.A. Draft’s Top Slot Is Full of Stars and Flameouts (Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:00:03 GMT)

    The Philadelphia 76ers own the top pick in Thursday night’s draft, a slot that has produced plenty of N.B.A. legends but offers no guarantee of success.

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    317 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.06.22)”

    1. So I posted about Allesandro Gentile as a out of left field option for a wing acquisition this summer. Are there any other international prospects worth looking at? I se to remember nando de colo is coming back to the states but that Toronto has his rights. Are there any other promising “free” agents from overseas that might be worth taking a look at?

    2. Apparently Parsons is going to be a free agent, man everyone is getting maxed lol

    3. We’re into the draft and free agent season now so can we at least show a positive demeanor for a change?

    4. For those of you who follow the college/draft stuff more closely than I did this year, is Thomas Walkup projected to be drafted?

    5. Pretty sure that answer is negatory. Walkup was really good, though; he’d be a great undrafted addition to summer league/training camp. So would Marcus Paige.

    6. Seems to me he’s the kind of guy you should take in the mid/late 2nd round. He’s obviously got a terrific work ethic

    7. Berman is reporting that the Knicks want to bring back Derrick Williams. I’m not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, he is reasonably familiar with the system by now and would only have to learn whatever tweaks Hornacek wants to put in — that will immediately give him a leg up on anyone coming in fresh. He had a career high TS on what was essentially a career high usage, a career high (albeit only ~8%) assist rate (double his previous) despite having a career low turnover rate, , and remains theoretically good in transition (somehow only 36.5 percentile according to NBA.com though), which hopefully we should have more of this year. He’s also athletic and only 25, which seem like good things.

      On the other hand, he’s shown zero evidence of being a useful NBA 3 point shooter. And he still seems completely clueless on defense.

    8. He definitely deserves a look in the 2nd round, but since no one is interested in taking him I think it’s a better idea to take him into summer league and make him an offer and use our second round pick on someone who is likely to be drafted since we can just grab him in the offseason. But yeah, I wouldn’t be against drafting him, definitely. Still want Levert, GP2, Felder, Whitehead, or Selden (in that order) if we draft in the late 2nd; if we draft in the late first/early second, I probably want Ulis/Johnson, Korkmaz/Valentine, Bembry/Murray (in that rough ordered set where the paired ones are 1a. 1b. …etc.)

      Juan Hernangomez actually looks really good and it’d be really fun to have both of the Brothers H on the same team and playing with Porzingis. Unfortunately, he’s probably gonna be gone before we can draft him.

    9. Derrick Williams actually shot 40% on corner 3’s, he just took most of them at the top of the key because of our pretty poor offensive spacing (and his bad decision making occasionally.) To me, the big issue is his defense, where he’s a sieve. Unless he picks it up on that end, he’s a net negative, and worth, like, a vet’s minimum. Idk what kind of contract you would even sign him to tbh, another 1+1?

    10. There’s a report stating that the Jazz are actively trying to trade Gordon Hayward. He seems like a guy the Knicks could use, but Kent Bazemore is the prince who was promised

    11. Apparently the Suns have already offered the #4 and #13 picks for Hayward. We’re outta that race already.

    12. “Unfortunately, he’s probably gonna be gone before we can draft him.”
      I saw one mock draft that had him going #46, although most have him going mid-20s to mid-30s.
      “Apparently the Suns have already offered the #4 and #13 picks for Hayward.”
      Hayward is a good player on a decent contract, but I think that this says two things — first, the Celtics are going to really have to sweeten the pot if they think that they are going to trade the #3 pick for a “young star” and, second, it seems that teams perceive a big drop-off in value after the #2 pick.

    13. How would people feel about throwing a max contract (or whatever would be the most painful for Washington to match) at Bradley Beal?

      Yes he has the injury risk — but without that, there’s no chance he would be remotely available.
      He’s a very good shooter, has the ability to be a secondary ballhandler, and is a pretty reasonable defender. His max is the “mini-max”, and he’s still very young (22).

      The other reason (other than injury) that Beal might be available is that Washington is probably entertaining thoughts of going for Durant. If Durant is anything like Lebron (he isn’t), he may take his time going to different places. That means we could theoretically get Beal to sign an offer sheet at midnight 7/1 and Washington would have to decide by 7/4 midnight, before Durant’s decision is known.

    14. One nice thing is that this draft is pretty much the ideal draft for trading into without giving up too many assets–there’s several teams with a surfeit of draft picks, and a few playoff teams who already have 12-14 roster spots filled who can’t afford to bring in more than one guy because of the 15 spot limit, so seconds and late firsts are definitely on offer especially given the perception around the league of this being a “weak” draft.

      I this is actually a pretty underrated draft with a lot of depth and a lot of role player potential even if there’s no obvious superstar candidate beyond simmons and maybe ingram. I like a lot of the guys in the late first and early second more than I do some guys in the 8-15 range, lol.

    15. I think Kent Bazemore is better than Bradley Beal, so I would much rather have Bazemore for $10M less in AAV. Beal would be the sexy name that puts butts in seats but doesn’t produce double digit wins the way his salary would command.

    16. None of the max contracts this year are really that enticing. Fournier is probably the best value, and he’s not going anywhere. Beal is tantalizing, but I don’t think he’s been productive enough to justify a max without it being a pretty big gamble, upside-wise and injury-wise.

    17. I think Kent Bazemore is better than Bradley Beal, so I would much rather have Bazemore for $10M less in AAV. Beal would be the sexy name that puts butts in seats but doesn’t produce double digit wins the way his salary would command.

      Max salary for Beal (or anyone 0-6 years) is something between 21-22MM. There is zero chance that Bazemore gets <15MM. Bazemore is also 5 years older.

      Look, I'd be happy with either one. I just don't think there's any chance you're getting Bazemore for <15.

      Fournier has some talent but from what I gather he's not very good at defense. We need two way players. But sure, young, skilled, with upside. I'd be fine with him too.

    18. With the 4-7% annual raises, Beal is likely to make how much? Even if Bazemore signs a deal worth $58-64M in total, Beal’s max should be worth like what, $94M? That’s anywhere from $30-36M more which translates to $7.5-9M more in AAV for a guy who hasn’t been as good as Bazemore. Beal is a risk that I would have no issue taking if he weren’t restricted and required a max contract. Fournier would also require a lot of money for a guy who isn’t a real difference maker.

      If we got any of those guys, I’d be happy. But Bazemore is clearly my #1 choice even though he’s the oldest. He plays both sides of the ball, he rebounds, and he would be cheapest and probably most productive.

    19. Fournier > Beal and I am a huge Gator fan.

      Re: Draft

      anyone know anything about Josh Adams, former pg for Wyoming? The dude is like a shorter JR smith which may be taken the wrong way but I think it is a good thing as long as he keeps his head on straight. He seems like an over achiever who has always been told he is too this or that but improved to overcome every odd so far. I don’t know what clicked for him in his senior year but something did and he put up some pretty good numbers scoring wise. He doubled his FTAs(8.3) and 3PAs(8.4) from the year before while increasing percentage wise in both areas. He is probably not a pg though unless he becomes the new Eric Bledsoe and calling him a PG might be stretching it.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9_cYvBqu7Y

      http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/josh-adams-1.html

    20. pelton’s model is pretty high on hernangomez … while his overall draft projections are just ok … his euro projections are very accurate and hernangomez is rated roughly around where hezonja was last year… probably not a star but an ok chance to be solid and worth a 1st round pick…

      walkup’s stat profile is really good which in isolation would make him a tremendous prospect but everything else dings him.. he’s sort of like seth tuttle was last year… tremendous college player.. a lil older than everyone else… bad measurables and played in a highly structured offense with pretty much everyone being interchangeable…. underwood was probably the nation’s most underrated coach… everyone on that team had pretty solid stats…. walkup is basketball’s version of the system college qb…

    21. Unfortunately, he’s probably gonna be gone before we can draft him.

      You’re only saying that because we don’t have a draft pick.

      Which is still kind of funny.

      Draft picks grow on trees.

      But the Knicks gave away their orchard.

      Now we’re talking of not having the assets to trade for Gordon Hayward…

      Whom we gave away as a draft pick…

      The reason I love draft week, reub, is because it fills me with optimism every year!

    22. I don’t trust Bazemore. I’d rather just throw $16-18m at Crabbe since he is younger.

      Re: Fournier
      Is there any way to break down his stats(d/0) at SG and SF to compare how he did at each position?

    23. We haven’t bought any draft picks yet, right? Are we assuming that’s inevitable, a lot of talk on this board about who we should and shouldn’t draft but here we are on draft day and still have zero picks.

    24. and this is a weak draft if you don’t have a top 2 pick… but it’s a great draft if you have multiple later picks… there’s a lot of land mines in between … i’m glad we don’t have a lottery pick because of that….

    25. bad measurables and played in a highly structured offense with pretty much everyone being interchangeable

      Bruh, do you even triangle?

      I get why he’s not highly regarded. But he put up huge numbers, and played well against good comp-I’d take a shot late.

    26. The Knicks could easily have the assets to trade for Gordon Hayward if Gordon Hayward says “I will only sign an extension with the New York Knicks. Everybody else who wants to trade for me will lose me to free agency next summer when I sign with the Knicks.” At that point it becomes an issue of if we want to trade Robin Lopez (to a third team that would give us assets) for Hayward. That would probably be a net negative for the Knicks when we could just sign Bazemore and keep Lopez.

      I’m really interested in how Hernangomez performs next season. He put up 17 and 10 per 36 with an eFG% of .667 last season for Real Madrid. If he’s good enough, he can eventually supplant RoLo and be our starter for under $2M a year. Hopefully we bring Willy over and see him in Orlando

    27. I wonder..
      Since when is a 15 win improvement not good and a sign of progress? Phil gets lambasted in the media and sometimes here because of the job he’s done or hasn’t done. Is it because of the marquee names Phil Jackson and New York Knicks? Is it because year 1 of his tenure was awful?

    28. I don’t love Beal’s game, but guys his age and with his talent are very rarely available for “just” money. He’s a lot closer to being on Porzingis’ timetable (the timetable the Knicks should be most focused on) than any of the other options. Plus he’s pretty much the definition of a high-risk, high-reward signing. He could become a perennial all-star, or he could continue to be an injury-plagued mediocrity.

      If the Knicks are determined to try to build in the short-run through free agency (they are) then that’s the kind of move they should be making. Bazemore is a fine player, and can obviously be a contributing member of a good team, but I just don’t understand where people think he takes this team. He just doesn’t move the needle nearly enough for a team that needs to get way, way better.

    29. Re: Walkup – I’d never heard of him before but man, a 62.8 2P% in a ballhandling high usage guard is pretty ridiculous. it’s 5% better than the next closest guard. And the 83% FT% gives some hope for 3 point range eventually.

    30. The problem with making an offer to one of these RFAs is that his current team has 72 hours to match, leaving you with all your money tied up while other players are signing offer sheets. It’s always a frenzy during the first week of July. Beal is expected to be matched. The other RFAs could just as easily be matched at any price, too. It’s a high risk, medium to low reward gambit targeting RFAs, especially this year.

    31. Re: the hullabaloo yesterday regarding Williams and Afflalo

      The simplest way to explain why those contracts were a problem:

      1) From this coming season onward, how will having invested $12.5m in those two players help the Knicks?

      easy: not at all.

      2) How did having those two players last year help the Knicks?

      Maybe bumped the Knicks from like 28 to 32 wins. If that’s something that you think was important, then I guess you can say the choice was okay. I see no value whatsoever though in winning 4 more games if you’re not making the playoffs.

      3) Are there any better outcomes Phil could have hoped for in giving those contracts?

      I don’t see any.

      4) Are there any other ways Phil could have used the cap space that did have a chance of helping the Knicks for more than one season where a playoff run was out of the question?

      Of course. There were many players that no other teams owned the rights to and were thus could have been signed to easily escapeable cheap contracts such as Norman Powell, Seth Curry, Boban Marjanovic and Lance Thomas (!).

      There were many more 2nd round picks over the last few years who have panned out. We could have acquired 2nd rounders at minimal cost and signed them to the same type of contract.

      I’m not saying every 2nd round/undrafted player pans out. All I’m saying is that at least there’s some upside to signing a player like this and no real downside if you have no chance at doing damage in the playoffs anyway.

      The bottom line is that while the Knicks are dicking around by “rolling their cap space over a year”, other teams are using spare minutes and roster spots to find long term value. Those teams will improve while the Knicks don’t. When you do nothing to improve your long term outlook, you’re getting worse because every year older a player gets is one fewer productive year he has in front of him.

    32. Norman Powell was drafted by Milwaukee in the 2nd round.

      There were many more 2nd round picks over the last few years who have panned out and could have been acquired at minimal cost and signed to the same type of contract.

      Phil has acquired 2nd round picks in both drafts he’s been in charge of so I think he agrees with you.

    33. Phil obviously loves versatility, smarts, hard work, defense and passing ability. The hidden qualities that don’t usually show up on the highlight films. It keeps leading me back to Evan Turner if we don’t get Batum. We would need a 3pt shooting PG to pair with him for floor spacing though. We’d probably be able to sign one or two other decent players if we get Turner with the money left over.

    34. Yes, Phil has traded for 2nd round picks, and getting them is no longer a “minimal cost”. To get Willie H last year it was cash + 2 future 2nd round picks. Now of course that was a premium 2nd round pick (35th). But still, the days of paying 500K for a 2nd round pick are way over.

      My guess is the cost of picks this year will also be high. Probably the same thing – will need to send 2 picks in future + cash to get one pick now.

    35. “He’s gonna be gone before we can draft him”
      Better get used to that over the next few days….

    36. DJ Augustin might be a nice, low cost PG addition. He’s put up some decent advanced stats over the past few years and looks like he could be a starter.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvpDljUO364

      There really might be some value in this free agency after all. Turner, Augustin, Noah, Teletovic, Leuer, Solomon Hill. We could probably afford all or most of them if we wanted to go that way.

    37. Another UFDA guy is Jameel Warney out of Stony Brook, 6’8 260 lbs PF. He shot 63% from the field, 11 rebs, and 3 blks per.

      Another PF is Shawn Long out of UL -LA(Elfrid Payton teammate). The wierd thing about him is his decreasing 3pt% over the last two years. However, the dude never stopped rebounding, 12.2 avg(15.7 per 40) in his senior year.

    38. Lavor Postell: Norman Powell was drafted by Milwaukee in the 2nd round.

      True, but the cost to add him was next to nothing. Tor acquired the pick for Vazquez and even got a protected first rounder in addition to Powell.

      Lavor Postell: Phil has acquired 2nd round picks in both drafts he’s been in charge of so I think he agrees with you.

      Like all teams, the Knicks have filled the end of their bench with minimum/near minimum salary players — second round picks, undrafted players, other randoms. The difference between the Knicks and most other teams is that Phil has given those players contracts where if you happen to luck out (as we did with Langston and Lance), you have to pay the player.

      He’s also wasted way many roster spots on aging players with no potential to be more than near minimum players such as Amundson, Vujacic and Seraphin.

      Frank: But still, the days of paying 500K for a 2nd round pick are way over.

      If you’re willing to give up mediocre rotation players, you can pick up 2nd rounders. Randy Foye got two second rounders, for example. We got two 2nd rounders for Prigioni. The fact that the Knicks have no trade assets is a result of Phil’s mad hunt for cap space. I’m sure had we just kept JR and Felton, we could have an extra bundle of late picks from the Shumpert/Tyson deals. Instead, we rushed to get the cap space, which we then used on players who had no potential to have long term value (Afflalo, D-Will).

      When you’re using assets (cap space, roster spots) for short term only gain, you end up without even a Prigioni level talent to swap out for some 2nd rounders.

    39. knicks won’t get him, and yall mentioned him but lil hernangomez got some love from Kevin Pelton. I’m not always a fan of Pelton but he was much more accurate with his predictions about KP then other analysts, accurately dismissing concerns about Porzingis’ rebounding (according to Pelton’s projections, if he was in the NCAA Kristaps woulda rebounded roughly about as well as Okafor). So when he had praise for Hernangomez, another stud in Spain, my ears perked. This was in an article where he hypothetically put himself in the shoes of the various GM’s of each time drafting, for Phoenix’ pick at #4:

      “But I tend to prefer Hernangomez as a prospect because while he’s not nearly the athlete Chriss is, he has a more proven track record as a shooter and is a substantially better defender. Because Phoenix has little need for the guards ahead of Hernangomez on my board (but in the same tier), I’d take him fourth.”

    40. Marquese Chriss smells like a bust to me tbh: no rebounding, relies too much on his body, bad defender.

      Does anyone have access to Insider and can copy/paste Pelton’s draft projections here? I’m interested to see how his compare to the NylonCalculus ones done recently.

    41. I think Fournier is much more reallistic than Beal, because Washington has no other alternatives at SG, while Magic have those position covered and may decide that it is not worth the opportunity to sign some other player they need more. Besides, I think he is the better player.

      Regarding Afflalo and Williams, I think it was important to Phil to have some semblance of veteran presence in the locker room. And you could say that everyone was motivated during the first half of the season. I am not sure you have your players motivated if you are fielding lots of undrafted players in order to see if you have luck with one of them.

    42. @iserp

      but the Knicks even before adding those end of bench vets were way more of a veteran team than any other similarly bad team. Calderon, Melo, Lopez — that’s like 60% of the cap dedicated to vets.

    43. The difference between the Knicks and most other teams is that Phil has given those players contracts where if you happen to luck out (as we did with Langston and Lance), you have to pay the player.

      He’s also wasted way many roster spots on aging players with no potential to be more than near minimum players such as Amundson, Vujacic and Seraphin.

      Amundson and Vujacic were brought in for their willingness to ride the pine and be professionals which this team has struggled to employ. Most teams other than Philly have a couple of guys exactly like that on the end of their bench.

      You have zero idea what Langston and Lance could have received from another team or what they were willing to sign. Galloway had played well on both his 10-day contracts with the Knicks and they had no draft rights on him. Maybe another team was willing to give him the exact type contract the Knicks gave him. Even then this deal gives the Knicks the ability to control his future.

      Lance signed for slightly above the minimum and was well worth his money. Do you really think even the Knicks expected him to start shooting 40% from 3 and should have locked him up over a few years? He like Amundson and Vujacic was somebody brought in for his work ethic and professionalism.

      Seraphin sucked and it was a stupid deal, but it was also for the room exception, which to my knowledge can’t be for more than 1 year.

      We got two 2nd rounders for Prigioni. The fact that the Knicks have no trade assets is a result of Phil’s mad hunt for cap space.

      Yeah, that’s why we have no trade assets. Right.

    44. Woj Bomb – 3 way trade:

      Atlanta get #12 pick
      Indy gets Jeff Teague
      Utah gets George Hill

      Guess we’re not trading for Teague.
      That’s good value for Atlanta. Draft is shallow but Teague only had 1 year left, and was probably going to play much less anyway as they give the keys to Schroder.

    45. Woj reporting three-way Jazz/Hawks/Pacers deal that includes #12 pick going to ATL, Teague to IND, and George Hill to Utah, with possibly more details to come.

    46. I really, really don’t get that trade for Indiana. It makes sense for Utah and Atlanta, but Teague isn’t even better than Hill, right? I mean, I guess he’s younger, but he’s not even a LOT younger.

    47. How much sense does it make for a Utah team, who spent two of their last three lottery picks on PGs? They must not be fans of Dante Exum or Trey Burke.

    48. Utah’s point guard situation was so shitty that just adding Shelvin Mack made them look a lot better. Hill will be huge for them.

    49. Can someone please look at Bradley Beal’s stats–his TS, WS/48, even PER… and tell me how in the hell he’s getting a max contract?? Even if he weren’t constantly injured his numbers scream “empty calories.” He’s resoundingly average… No way the Knicks should even consider a max offer.

    50. Utah gave up on Trey Burke a long time ago, so it’s silly to even mention him. Exum, who knows, but this is one of the biggest upgrades you can imagine for an already decent team. Utah was throwing Shelvin Mack out there for 95 minutes a game to run PNR with Favors even though he can’t dribble with either hand, and now they suddenly have a very good PG to play with Gobert, Hayward, Favors, Hood. If Lyles improves and Exum gives them something they might even have depth. Interesting team. Larry Bird is doing strange things recently.

    51. Hill is just what the doctor ordered for Utah. Solid defensive player that can space the floor and is at least a league average starting PG. That’s more than enough to get them to 50 wins and more as long as they avoid the injury bug they dealt with this year.

      I guess it’s fine for Indiana, but seems like a lateral move and a weird fit between him and Ellis in the backcourt.

    52. Trey Burke is awful and Dante Exum got injured, so see the appeal for Utah. Indiana, I guess just wants to shuffle the deck and figures Teague is more apt to push the pace. The Hawks though are really selling low on a PG one year removed from an all-star appearance. The no. 12 pick in a weak draft? Yikes.

    53. So Atlanta now holds two picks in the 1st round. George Hill is a plus but if Hayward is traded what does that mean for them? And George Hill is a 30 year old on an expiring deal. I really don’t like this trade for Utah. If Teague signs an extension in Indiana then the trade makes sense. I think Teague (like Hill) is an Indiana native. Utah wasn’t going to win anything or attract any free agents with or without Hill, but then again, getting to the playoffs is a big thing for the smaller markets so I see that.

    54. I presume the Hill trade is specifically them saying that they’re NOT dealing Hayward now.

    55. it’s kind of odd why utah picked hill over teague…. they’re both on expirings and teague is younger and better… hill’s the better defender but in decline…

    56. 1. Hill improves Utah alot right now in ways they need it most — spacing. Better shooter than Teague. And they don’t need teague’s ball handling ability when hood and hayward are so good at creating and handling already. They maximize hill’s strengths without taking away from Hayward and Hood — who would get less chances to create with Teague.

      2. Also gives them a chance to see what they have in Exum without throwing him in the fire again

      3. Only thing I can think of re: Teague and Indy is that they want to play more Pick and Roll Uptempo offense, and they want to reduce Paul George’s ball handling duties (which isn’t a bad goal, seeing as him being the de facto PG is one of the reasons why he’s such a chuck and one of the reasons why he likely falls off a cliff in the 2nd half every year). Hill isn’t quite a pick and roll gimme the ball and i’ll run the offense type PG (just about his only weakness, if you can even call it that)

    57. OMG

      Derrick Rose and a 2nd round pick to the Knicks for Robin Lopez, Jerian Grant

    58. Specifically:

      The Bulls are sending Derrick Rose, Justin Holiday and a 2017 2nd-round pick for Robin Lopez, Jerian Grant and Jose Calderon, per source.

      Well, we just gave up two of our only assets for Derrick freaking Rose. I…

    59. I, for one, cannot wait to see Derrick Rose play in Hornacek’s system for the 13 games that he’s healthy this season.

    60. Dwight Howard interested in the Knicks too…..

      Rose, Melo and Dwight Howard! That team gets you to the finals…..in 2011.

      Fuck everything. Unless we go sign Whiteside or Horford.

    61. Lol.

      I told you we weren’t getting Rose for free.

      Add this to the mounting cost of Carmelo Anthony.

      It never ends. It just never ends.

    62. Please. Please. I want the laughs that come from someone defending this trade.

    63. Does this mean we’re tanking by accident or on purpose?

      Sadly the former.

    64. i would guess that the knicks FO logic = cap space based. Rose is only on the books for one year unlike Jose/RoLo. Still, are we gonna play KP @ the 5? Does phil think he can get Hassan or Horford?

      FIND OUT ON THE NEXT EPISODE OF DRAGON BALL Z

    65. Well, we didn’t give up a future 1st round pick for an awful, injury riddled player, right? Progress?

      Just a guy who was a 1st rounder last year. What a fucking disaster.

    66. Are you fucking kidding me with this trade?

      Sorry Reub, but your guy Phil is a straight MORON. A goddamn MORON.

      I don’t even know what else to say but HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

      Enjoy this 30-win season coming up, Knicks fans. Derrick Rose. Derrick. Fucking. Rose.

      This is worse than Bargnani.

    67. So will this move overtake the Eddy Curry trade as worst Knicks trade of 21st century?

      enjoy this 30 win season

      You kidding? We just gave up our second best player for a guy who will either be hurt or play 3000 and likely play worse than the average D-league call up. Melo is one year older. We also reduced our cap space. I would be surprised if we break 25 wins. Most likely, this is 14/15 all over again with Jackson forced to blow it up midseason. But maybe that’s for the best. I’m going to tell myself that the purpose of this trade is to force Melo to accept a trade and get us a high lotto pick again while boosting season ticket sales.

    68. I am going to love trolling this team, and pointing and laughing at it. Phil is a fucking joke.

    69. So will this move overtake the Eddy Curry trade as worst Knicks trade of 21st century?

      That’s still worse. Heck, I think the Bargs deal is even worse. This is still, of course, horrific.

    70. Phil Jackson is a fucking moron unless we have a covert tank/force Carmelo out of NY operation going on at the moment.

      If we don’t sign Whiteside say hello to a top 5 pick.

    71. Well, we didn’t give up a future 1st round pick for an awful, injury riddled player, right? Progress?

      Robin Lopez was worth a first round pick, at least.

      Man, there were so many directions this team could have gone in this summer. We had to choose the worst. Of course we did.

      I can’t read all the comments from people who think this is good. I just can’t. Jowles, burn them all.

    72. Bring back Isiah. I would rather have Isiah running this shit than that idiotic stoned egomaniac hippie.

    73. Well, we got a point guard.
      I was OK with us getting Rose, but not at this price. I assume that KP plays center now. Not happy.

    74. Nothing like completely crushing the hopes of your upcoming season literally two days after the NBA Finals ends. The offseason hasn’t even started yet, and we’ve already had the worst offseason of any team in the NBA.

    75. Depressed, looking for silver linings. I literally know nothing of Justin Holiday. Is there any value there, or is he just filler?

    76. I trust in Phil. I’ll miss the 3 guys that we gave up though.

      This is similar to the reaction after we signed D Williams last offseason. All negativity all the time.

      Rose has in the past put up better numbers than all the guys we gave up put together. And now he’s playing for a new contract. He might bring Durant. Maybe Dwight too. I’ll miss Lopez but he was a little weird.

    77. Stunned. We gave up two assets for a guy that Chicago should be paying us to take. Same as the Bargnani deal.

      Management may change, but NOBODY gives up assets for albatrosses like the New York Knicks.

    78. I mean, even if we do sign Whiteside or Horford, we still massively need backcourt help, considering we just traded our two best (though admittedly mediocre) guards for a guy who has a near zero chance of giving you 2000 minutes. Oh, and Afflalo is gone, too. So all we have are The Corpse of Derrick Rose, Galloway, and???? This is ridiculous…

    79. Wow so we give up our 3rd best player, the rock of our entire defense, and our only youngin besides Porzingod… for an over paid broken shell of a point guard on a max contract that literally every other GM would laugh at being offered.

      Keep doing ur thang Phil ?!

    80. If I was going to pick the player least suited to playing in the Triangle (or an offense with Triangle-aspects), it would be Derrick Rose at his best. Of course, Derrick Rose at his best has not existed for four years. This gives me flashbacks to the trade for Tracy McGrady.

      Ugh.

    81. I trust in Phil. I’ll miss the 3 guys that we gave up though.

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAAA

    82. i have absolutely no idea why this trade occurs now of all times to do it… was derrick rose going to be traded during the draft? i highly doubt that… this deal probably would have been available throughout the end of FA as i doubt ANY team was topping our offer….

      i am furious right now… the one good trade (jerian grant) and the one good signing(lopez) phil has done just resulted in a one year deal for derrick rose who is toast…

    83. So we traded out great value center for the worst PG in the NBA over the last 4 years and didn’t even get back a first round pick.

      Now we really need to go grab Hassan Whiteside.

    84. Justin Holliday is dreck pretty much so there’s literally 0 silver lining other than the fact that we’re getting a top 5 pick and carmelo is gonna waive his NTC come next year when the whole 2017 FA class laughs in our face

    85. We have to be front runners for Whiteside right? Or Horford? Biyombo? Only way this makes sense.

      Nevermind, even then it doesn’t make sense.

    86. Rose isn’t even as good as Calderon. He’s not as good as Grant.

      Phil Jackson just gave up three seasons of a reasonably priced Robin Lopez, three years of a cost-controlled Jerian Grant on a rookie contract, a second round pick and Jose Calderon for one year of a washed up point guard with two bad knees.

      This is some straight up Isiah shit. One of the worst trades in Knicks history, even before Rose plays a single game. Disastrous.

      I hope the Knicks trade Porzingis now, because I like him, and I don’t want to see him waste his career here.

    87. Carmelo and his “window” and the spell he holds on Knicks management continues to ruin the franchise

      I like Carmelo as a person but fuck him as a basketball player–that trade has gutted us every single fucking year since

    88. This team is fucked forever.

      There’s just no point anymore. I mean, everybody here knows this is a terrible trade, all of us know this has about zero chance of panning out, and anybody with a set of eyes can see that Derrick Rose is completely finished.

      Except the moron hippie that runs the team. He thinks Derrick Rose is still a star, because he’s fucking stupid.

      He can cram those eleven rings up his ass. He’s a TERRIBLE general manager. Like, worst GM in the NBA level terrible.

    89. I think what makes this trade even worse for me is Derrick Rose’s back up is Tony Wroten.

      We still have all of our cap space, though. Phil has two more weeks to prove to me he’s not a moron.

    90. Please please someone tell me this is all part of some brilliant master plan. Phil isn’t that dumb, is he?

    91. I’d want D-Rose as a one-year flyer, because he is an upgrade from the garbage we’ve been throwing out there, but not at the cost of trading anything of value for him.

      And that’s what pisses me off. Lopez and Grant are our only two tradable assets. RoLo and his contract this summer is a huge asset.

      And to get the remains of Derrick Rose for them? I mean….

      I LOVE Kristaps at center, so moving RoLo clears that position. So when you judge this by personnel and lineups, I somewhat get it. But that’s such a shitty tunnel visioned way for a front office to look at things.

      At least we also got Justin Holiday? He can play a little bit.

      Fuh……

    92. You were saying the same things after Derrick Williams was signed too. I remember that. 13 rings. I trust in the plan. Go find another team. Root for the Nets. They deserve you.

      GO TEAM!

    93. can we ban reub yet I can’t handle this dr pangloss shit with the brexit vote and derrick rose trade happening in a 2 day span

    94. Thirteen rings, zero of them as a GM.

      Phil is fucking bullshit, and I will be gleefully laughing at you and this terrible team all season long and probably beyond. Your hero is a fraud.

    95. Unless Rose is healthy, this is worse than the Ewing trade. Lopez & Grant and all Phil got back is next year’s 2nd? Phil got fleeced. What’s next? Noah? Whiteside? KP at the 5 full time? Phil better have something else up his sleeve and he needs alot more shooting now

    96. Is it possible Phil is still employed by Chicago, and this is the culmination of a long con on the Knicks? I’m looking for logical explanations for this trade, and this is all I came up with.

    97. You guys won’t even give him a fair chance. Be fair. Be a Knick fan.

      I’ve been rooting for the Knicks since I was 10 years old and Campy Russell was on the team. Don’t tell me how to be a fan. It sucks for you that the charlatan Phil Jackson has made a fool of you, but life is rough sometimes.

      It will be nice to have you around as a punching bag though when this team is losing 75% of its games next season.

    98. there were rumblings that phil was opposed to the idea and that were other members of the front office wanting to do the deal… this could be a mills/houston thing….

      i have no doubt that phil jackson will be gone after this season… the lone brightspot is that hinkie is available…

    99. Does anyone know how this effects our cap space? Essentially not at all right?

      Off the top of my head, yeah, it’s basically a wash, salary-wise. It probably cuts into their cap space SLIGHTLY.

    100. IT’S A NIGHTMARE. The Knicks don’t have a lot of trade chips, but Robin Lopez and Jerian Grant were trade chips. To get Derrick Rose, who is old and bad, and Justin Holiday, who should already be in his prime, and is also bad, and a second round pick, is very, very bad. Derrick Rose surely needed to leave Chicago to find his game again, but I can think of few worse places to do so than New York.

    101. SMH – Is Isaiah back in charge? Terrible trade. It’s moves like this that keep the Knicks sucking decade after decade.

    102. Someone please shoot me. It isn’t fair. No man should have to suffer for this long.

    103. I will miss all three of the guys that we moved, though. Because I root for my team and it’s players. This is step one in making us great again. Trust in Phil!

    104. Source for that, djphan?

      I’m not sure if it’s worse if Jackson was the one who saw this through, or the James Dolan contingent…probably the latter, because that means nothing will change so long as Dolan remains above-ground, no matter if our GM is Phil, Hinkie, Ujiri, or a god damn rhesus macaque

    105. THE NBA FINALS WERE LIKE, A SECOND AGO. HOW CAN THE KNICKS HAVE FUCKED THIS UP ALREADY

    106. If you match Rose with, say Lance Stephenson and Dwight Howard we are right there!

    107. djphan
      June 22, 2016 at 3:47 pm
      there were rumblings that phil was opposed to the idea and that were other members of the front office wanting to do the deal… this could be a mills/houston thing….

      i have no doubt that phil jackson will be gone after this season… the lone brightspot is that hinkie is available…

      If that’s the case that it is more meddling by Knicks upper management, it pretty much speaks to the fact that Phil has no control and really why have the pretense?

    108. I will miss all three of the guys that we moved, though. Because I root for my team and it’s players. This is step one in making us great again. Trust in Phil!

      I hate to break it to you, but Phil’s tenure here is essentially over. This trade means the book is closed on Phil Jackson as Knicks GM. He failed. I’m just hoping he gets fired or quits before he can fuck up next year’s high lottery pick.

    109. Is that brand new? I read in ESPN:
      “The Knicks are sending center Robin Lopez, guard Jose Calderon and guard Jerian Grant to Chicago, which is shipping guard Justin Holiday, Rose and a 2017 second-round pick back to New York, sources said.”

    110. What really guts me about this trade is dumping Grant without ever giving him a chance to see what he could be running a real NBA PnR heavy offense. I’ve been as tough on him as anybody, but to just toss him into a trade for no reason before ever even seeing what he could be is just so classic Knicks.

      Phil’s biggest accomplishments as GM were dumping THJ to get Grant, and the RoLo value signing. He just undid both to get washed up Derrick Rose. Think about that.

    111. Rose wasn’t worth Rolo straight up, so of course they threw in Grant and Calderon just for kicks.
      I agree, Shoot Me Now. If Rose even plays in more than 40% of the games next year I’ll be shocked.

    112. Please. Please. I want the laughs that come from someone defending this trade.

      OK. Deep breath. Will give it my best try.

      OK. Here is some rationale. I don’t believe it, but here’s some rationale.

      1) We don’t think Jerian Grant is very good. (hard to disagree with this one, honestly, but yes, we did just draft him last year when we could’ve gotten Rondae Hollis Jefferson or Bobby Portis)

      2) Getting rid of Calderon is a net +

      3) Love Robin Lopez but we’d rather have Joakim Noah or Pau or someone else on a shorter contract. Please no Dwight please no Dwight please no Dwight. Or at least no Dwight on anything more than a 2 year contract.

      4) Derrick Rose’s stats were sorta better after the ASB and for the whole season were artificially deflated by his orbital injury at the start of the year?

      5) Derrick is now 1.5 years out from his last knee surgery. Maybe his strength is better?

      6) Derrick maybe was examined by Tim Grover who thought he was being mismanaged, thinks he can get back to his previous explosiveness? Grover was of course the trainer for Michael Jordan. Phil might know him.

      7) Justin Holiday might be an ok 3-D guy? And plays shooting guard?

      8) Overall flexibility is actually now better? As of right now we would only have $29MM in guaranteed contracts for 2017-18 (with Melo, KP, KOQ under contract) and an estimated cap of $107MM. That seems like a lot of $.

      Overall I’d give the trade like a C. I think the ceiling for this team pre-trade was pretty low assuming no dramatic FA signings. Now… I dunno. Can Derrick Rose get back to what he was 4 years ago? Do we actually have a chance at CP3 or Westbrook next summer?

      But yes – I feel like we could have gotten a lot more for Lopez and Grant than a broken down volume scorer who can’t score anymore.

    113. The way these things work, the second round picks are almost always wrong at first. So it could be that the Knicks do get the pick. I saw one version where they sent the pick.

    114. Are we this hard up for a PG that we traded our assets for a broke down/over the hill guy? Jesus.

    115. And you must admit that Rolo was a little weird and that Grant fell over a lot. Jose was a matador. Ole!

    116. The part about all of this is that we could have gotten Jeremy Lin in FA for no assets and he’d be better than this washed up bum.

    117. What really guts me about this trade is dumping Grant without ever giving him a chance to see what he could be running a real NBA PnR heavy offense. I’ve been as tough on him as anybody, but to just toss him into a trade for no reason before ever even seeing what he could be is just so classic Knicks.

      That’s not altogether true – they’ve seen Grant for a full year in practice. And he’s 24. But yes, I’d rather see what you can get from a 24 year old Grant than Rose at this point.

    118. Just like we could have gotten more for JR and Shump last year. Do you notice a recurring pattern here?

    119. This trade is an F. F minus even, or I dunno, a G.

      There is NO context in which this trade makes ANY sense other than the context of “Phil Jackson is not smart.”

    120. If you listed the 15 worst NBA trades of the 21st century, how many would the Knicks have? 5? 6? It’s truly astounding. Doesn’t matter if it’s Isiah, or Layden, or Grunwald, or Phil, or Dolan, or a fucking chimp throwing darts. We just keep getting absolutely reamed in trades that every single fan knows are disasters the moment they’re made. It’s beyond depressing. I seriously can’t fucking take it.

    121. We might as well trade Melo now and get whatever assets we can for him. This team isn’t doing shit next season or the next. So why waste any f-cking time about it?

    122. Phil is bold and recognizes greatness because he’s great himself. Have a little faith in him. And to think, he’s just starting!

    123. We might as well trade Melo now and get whatever assets we can for him. This team isn’t doing shit next season or the next. So why waste any f-cking time about it?

      Nah, gotta get the ring this year while Rose is still under contract.

      Prolly should move Kristaps for some ruff rydahs

    124. btw I don’t think Dwight is the play here. It’s Joakim Noah or Pau. Not sure which corpse I’d rather have. Probably Noah because he at least can theoretically play defense.

    125. Brace yourselves: the next bomb will be Noah on a 4-year 60m deal.

      Heh just noticed Frank beat me to it. Did Phil learn nothing from the Calderon debacle?

    126. The bottom line to me is that we gave up 2 good assets and got a broken down placeholder for 1 year .

      I don’t give a crap what people think of Lopez as a player, that was one of the most attractive contracts for Cs in the NBA. Grant wasn’t anything special, but he was improving and it was obvious he could play in the right system. You are supposed to get something back other than a placeholder for those 2 assets.

      Either Phil is a moron, he’s smoking too much weed, or someone else took over the deal.

    127. Good (or lucky) at drafting, crap at trades.
      so basically Phil = Isaiah – sexual harassment

    128. How are you guys going to feel if Kevin Durant comes here now?

      Sorry for Kevin Durant

    129. Apparently we waived Wroten too. Feels like just yesterday reub was explaining to me the genius of that signing.

    130. How are you guys going to feel if Kevin Durant comes here now?

      BWAHAHAHAHAHA. Are you fucking serious? Even if he was crazy enough to come here you think that would work out? Not enough fucking balls on that court.

    131. “It’s clear we need a lead guard, someone that can really carry the load, day in and day out. That’s something that I think is one of our biggest needs,”
      Steve Mills

      ‘And by day in and day out I mean a day a year’, Mills went on to add.

    132. I agree w/ most of what Frank says, but it’s best case. Calderon going is a net plus, and we may be the 25 biggest Grant fans outside of his immediate family. What kills me is we gave up Lopez for nothing. I’m not sure what else we could have traded him for, there are a lot of good young bigs these days, but we threw him in to make the $$ work and didn’t get a first round pick back. that’s just bad.

      I may do a Joel Embiid and take a year off. This time next year, we will have Melo, KP and Kyle O’Quinn and a shit load of $$. Or, we may give that away next week. Either way, we will have an extra 2’d round pick.

    133. This means we’re trading Melo right? I mean, no way they expect to contend with this group right?

    134. OK last chance at trying to justify this. To be clear, I am not in favor, but just to present the other side.

      Robin Lopez is probably not the starting center on a contender. Contract was/is reasonable but that’s not a good enough reason to keep him.

      Jerian Grant is a career backup PG — the kind of guard you can get for the vet’s minimum. Yes, we made a mistake drafting him.

      Derrick Rose is a possibly med-high reward high risk guy. Worst thing that happens is he sucks and then we let him go. That equals more cap space next summer and a better draft pick. Best thing that happens is he looks like Derrick Rose circa 2011 and we’re a lot of fun to watch.

      Justin Holiday is a solid player – according to some Bulls website:

      Justin Holiday showed a lot in just a short amount of time with the Bulls. For the Bulls this year, Holiday averaged 12.4 points per 36 minutes, while shooting 43.4 percent on threes, with 4.4 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 1.3 steals and 1.1 blocks.

      he was Pac 10 defensive player of the year his senior year in college. Played for GS so there’s probably some familiarity with him via Kerr/Luke. He’s not just a throw-in.

      How was that?

    135. This isn’t Zeke level stupid, because it doesn’t fuck us up long term, but it’s still really dumb.*

      *unless Melo demands a trade now, in which case it’s still pretty dumb, but slightly less dumb

    136. we really shouldn’t have waived tony wroten since we’re trying to be the worst team in the league

    137. HOW DID THEY TRADE DERRICK ROSE WITHOUT GIVING UP AN ASSET!?!?!?!?

      I want to cry. I really do. I’m a 38 year old man and I want to cry.

    138. *unless Melo demands a trade now, in which case it’s still pretty dumb, but slightly less dumb

      He should. What is holding him here? There is no chance we’re winning shit with this bunch. Its poorly matched to begin with since Rose has to have the ball in his hand all the time to be effective.

    139. can’t wait for everyone who thinks this is a 2017 cap space move to react when we sign some aging veteran to a multi-year deal in a week

    140. Steve Kerr on Holiday:

      “He’s an unbelievable guy. He’s a great worker, he’s smart and he’s a team guy. Justin belongs in this league. They keep grinding, knowing that nothing is given and everything is earned. That’s one of the reasons I love him, along with the fact that he’s a really good player.”

    141. @alecto – i can’t seem to find it but i definitely remember reading it somewhere and quickly dismissing rose trade scenarios…

      i definitely think there’s a followup to this and the only scenario where i’d be ok with this deal is if we get durant… possibly horford…

      another scenario where this might be ok is signing pau to a 1-2 year deal…. make a failed playoff run and start a proper rebuild in 2017 with hinkie as gm….

    142. And as far as “worst trade in NBA history” kind of stuff, that’s just not the case.

      WORST case scenario is that Rose is passable, end up somewhere between 8-10 seed, get a pick in the teens, and have a decision to make re: resigning Rose the following summer. Guess what, this is basically the same scenario as was likely this season anyway, except we have $14MM more in cap space (yes I understand we could theoretically flip Lopez for another asset).

      Other possible scenarios:
      Rose is awful and gets injured. We suck balls and have $70MM in cap space and a high draft pick next summer. Melo gets tired of this, and we trade him at the deadline for a bunch of assets. Hubert and Max Fisher Cohen need some special time by themselves.

      Rose is really good and the team is interesting to watch.

      But there doesn’t seem to be a scenario in which we have fewer draft picks and less flexibiltiy. That’s why the Bargnani trade was so bad — we gave away a pick.

    143. I mean, big picture, after we suck big time this year, trade Melo midseason, and then fire Jackson, Ujiri will have a nice high lotto pick to pair with Porzingis and lots up cap sp-oh, who am I kidding-we’re gonna blow the cap space and hire Alan Houston as GM and it’s all really going to go to shit.

    144. This trade isn’t horrible just because of what we gave up. It’s also about what we got. Rose is TERRIBLE. -0.7 VORP, 0.009 WS/48, -14 Net Rating. He used up 27% of Chicago’s possessions last year while posting a 48% true shooting.

      He was a giant net negative player last year, and there’s no reason to believe this year will be any different. Normally I’d say we’d be better off if he got hurt (which he almost certainly will), but considering we have no other PGs on the roster, his backup will also likely be bad.

      If we are trying to tank, Rose is the perfect player. His addition plus the Lopez subtraction make us substantially worse.

    145. Reub..I get the optimism, but it’s damn hard to be optimistic. If you’re gonna give up Lopez, then don’t give up the shooter in Calderon and Grant without getting a good pick back. Hell..you can absorb him to the cap and give them Calderon & Grant. Losing Lopez is gonna hurt. Even if Phil gets a Whiteside, it hurts because the floor spacing will be awful. Phil has more work to do..alot more than pre-trade

    146. Frank, you’re doing a good job of trying to justify it, but where you lose me is:

      Robin Lopez is probably not the starting center on a contender. Contract was/is reasonable but that’s not a good enough reason to keep him.

      I disagree that he’s not good enough and I disagree that it’s good reason to dump him. First of all, he was the C for a really, really good team two years ago. Were they championship caliber? No, but they were on that 2nd tier. Getting to that tier is quite simply a pipe dream for the Knicks. Worrying about whether he’s good enough to get us over the hump from the 2nd tier to the top tier should be the last of our concerns.

      And second, even if you think long-term he’s not good enough, you still max out his value. Even if you want to have a great C (probably shouldn’t sign Noah in that case), and he’s only a good C, you should still get a lot of value for good starting C on a very affordable contract. And yet we got a guy who even in trying to defend the trade you’re admitting isn’t much more than a flier. It’s jsut bad asset management.

    147. He was a giant net negative player last year, and there’s no reason to believe this year will be any different. Normally I’d say we’d be better off if he got hurt (which he almost certainly will), but considering we have no other PGs on the roster, his backup will also likely be bad.

      81st out of 85 PGs according to ESPN RPM.

    148. LOL. We have to be in full tank mode right? This just to clear up cap space for next season while getting the #1 pick.

    149. We got an all time All Star in Rose and it didn’t cost us any cap room. We saved $5 million with him over that bum Conley. Then we also got Holiday, who will be our Bazemore (only 15 million dollars less). So we’re up 20 mil and have solved 2 of our biggest problems. We’re well ahead of the game and there’s so much more that will be done.

    150. We got an all time All Star in Rose and it didn’t cost us any cap room. We saved $5 million with him over that bum Conley. Then we also got Holiday, who will be our Bazemore (only 15 million dollars less). So we’re up 20 mil and have solved 2 of our biggest problems. We’re well ahead of the game and there’s so much more that will be done.

      :)

    151. Of course it’s not the worst trade we’ve made.

      But when you look at the two things we could have done:

      A) pull the plug on the Melo Error, trade him for picks, auction of our best assets, and begin an earnest rebuild

      B) give up two of our very few assets for a crappy player that will appease Melo and make headlines

      … the fact that we thought B was the right choice is among the dumbest decisions we’ve made in recent history.

    152. We got an all time All Star in Rose and it didn’t cost us any cap room. We saved $5 million with him over that bum Conley. Then we also got Holiday, who will be our Bazemore (only 15 million dollars less). So we’re up 20 mil and have solved 2 of our biggest problems. We’re well ahead of the game and there’s so much more that will be done.

      You have to keep in mind though that we just lost Tony Wroten, who was going to be our Derrick Rose (only the young healthy version) so that’s like a $20M loss. Maybe more.

    153. I like how Frank, who is being more optimistic than anyone uses the phrase “we suck balls” as a possible outcome.

      Did we really waive Wrotten?

    154. This from realGM about Holiday:

      “He’s the starting 2 imo. Has a mind for the game, can hit the 3, attack the hoop on occasion and has crazy long arms. Good defensive instincts. Warriors trusted him a bit in close games last year. No idea why they let him walk.”

      And you guys hated Wroten but now that he’s gone you won’t give Phil any credit for it. Shame!

    155. Don’t forget: we all have to root for this to fail now, because it even gets us into the playoffs that’s a three year max deal for Rose.

    156. How was that?

      Please don’t take this personally. I am going for the laugh.

      I think it means you broke into Phil’s apartment and started smoking his private stash.

    157. Typical Knicks. Trading good (or at least solid) assets for some overrated, past his best years star player for god knows why.

      With Lopez gone, I guess that means Porzingis is going to play the five full time this year. Not sure whether he’s gonna be physically ready for it…

    158. One the plus side Rose has to be suspended for a lot of games if he loses his sexual assault case, right?

    159. Nobody liked our point guards and now they’re all gone. Think of the genius involved there. One fell swoop.

    160. Negative knick fans!

      Rose has a lot to prove as a former mvp in a contract year doesn’t he!?!

    161. Really hope we don’t sign Horford or Whiteside because they’ll improve our win total enough so that we’re in the top 10 rather than top 1 in pick order next draft

      also agree w hubert if we make playoffs d rose is getting a max contract from us.

    162. Alan Hahn is saying that we now have a #2 draft pick tomorrow night out of the trade.

    163. This stupid trade is just like all other stupid Knick trades. It’s not just the awfulness of the player that we got in return, it’s the complete lack of understanding of opportunity cost.

      Just as a straight value-for-value trade, it’s completely horrible. Three years of cost-controlled Robin Lopez, three years of rookie contract Jerian Grant and one year of Jose Calderon for one year of completely washed up zombie Derrick Rose. And the other throw-in, the 27-year old journeyman guard with the career .486 TS%. So in terms of value-for-value, it’s completely horrendous.

      But it’s even WORSE when you consider that those assets– RoLo, Grant and Calderon– could have actually been traded for something of long-term value. You could have at least gotten some draft picks or players with at least one functioning knee for that package. Instead it’s the same old pile of magic beans the Knicks always get in these trades.

      Anybody who is defending this needs to have his head examined. This is an AWFUL trade, a complete failure. It’s rock solid evidence that Phil Jackson’s successes were of the “blind squirrel finds nut” variety. He doesn’t understand player valuation. He’s a complete charlatan, and he is going to get his comeuppance.

      It’s over, folks. Phil failed.

    164. Ok, if you want to try to justify the trade it is this:

      1) let’s say (just hypothetically), rose’s play reverts part of the way back to his prior glory and he becomes a + point guard again
      2) we sign durant, batum, or whiteside (whiteside makes me a little queasy) this year (maybe players in the league still believe in rose and want to join him Melo and KP)
      3) we sign another max player next year (i suppose this is contingent upon at least #2 and probably #1 as well, otherwise why would another max player sign)
      4) if rose recaptures prior glory we resign him after 2 and 3 occur, if rose does not we let him go after this year

      I suppose I could talk myself into not quitting the lolknicks until after the FA period is over. How the F did we only get one 2nd rounder out of this.
      After that we’d have no cap flexibility, but next year IF all that occured we’d have a pretty good team.

    165. The funniest thing is that I guarantee you that Melo loves this trade.

      Oh he thinks we’re one player away now.

    166. Oh he thinks we’re one player away now

      I remember us joking at the end of the season about how the Knicks should trade for Rose to drive Melo and I did that that wouldn’t work because Melo would think it was a great trade. We’re about to see the play out for real.

    167. I wish RuRu were still here to tell us about how this is going to work out.

      Ruru’s got nothing on reubreub.

    168. The funniest thing is that I guarantee you that Melo loves this trade.

      Oh he thinks we’re one player away now.

      finally got a second superstar

    169. Fun fact: Derrick Rose had a .479 TS% last year and a 27.3 USG%

      Fun fact #2: Derrick Rose had a .009 WS48 last year (lower than Andrea Bargnani’s .013)

      Fun fact #3: Derrick Rose was the fifth least productive player in the entire NBA last season in terms of Wins Produced (the only players who produced fewer wins were Kobe Bryant, Emmanuel Mudiay, Markieff Morris and Paul Pierce)

      Fun fact #4: Derrick Rose averaged 3.1 free throw attempts per 36 minutes

      Fun fact #5: Derrick Rose had ONE dunk in 2097 minutes last year

    170. You can’t fire a new coach his first year unless he really sabotages the team badly. If the team is like 12-29 midway through the season (about what I expect), it’s Phil’s head that will roll.

    171. Phil is not done ruining this team.

      He’s gonna trade Porzingis. I can just feel it in my bones.

    172. Well, I guess that’s the end of the Robin Lopez circle jerk, eh?
      :-)

      But seriously, I’m waiting for the full details to be revealed. Initial reaction is negative; Lopez was good value. I keep hoping that Chicago kicked in a #1 pick, but current reports are just a 2nd rounder. Gotta look up the SG guy, but not expecting much.

      Lopez is a bit of a plodder, and the Knicks may want to run. Calderon was good buddies with KP; I wonder how that plays.

    173. If Porzingis got traded I would quit this franchise but luckily that’s not gonna happen.

      It’s crazy that THAT’S what it would take me to quit this franchise. I wouldn’t leave because our fuckwit of an owner refused to sign Jeremy Lin because he had the gall to explore the market, or because our fuckwit of an owner put a man convicted of sexual harassment in charge of a WNBA team, but rather because we traded away our star rookie.

      Knicks fans have a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome

    174. You guys are meandering in mediocrity while Phil is looking for greatness. And more rings.

    175. We’re all collectively holding our breath for the Jowles response, right? Or is that just me?

    176. Would anybody be surprised to see the team announce that they’ve traded Zingis for Marc Gasol tomorrow? At this point, anything is on the table.

    177. Coming any minute now…….wait for it……the Dwight Howard signing just to complete this Titanic Hitting the Iceberg day Knicks fans are having…

    178. USA Today:

      “From the Knicks’ perspective, getting rid of Lopez puts New York in the market for another big man to play alongside Kristaps Porzingis, who thrived as a rookie this past season. The core of Rose, Porzingis and Carmelo Anthony should be enough to allow the Knicks to contend in the Eastern Conference next season.

      “This is an exciting day for New York and our fans,” Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek said. “Derrick is one of the top point guards in the NBA who is playoff-battle-tested. He adds a whole new dynamic to our roster and immediately elevates our backcourt.”

    179. This hurts worse than a Draymond Green dick punch… this Dwight Howard trade is going down.

    180. Dwight Howard is an overrated douche, but he’s at least somewhat productive. Derrick Rose is just Stephon Marbury 2.0 minus the vaseline eating.

    181. For those of you who didn’t watch much Rose last year, he was truly terrible. He did player better later in the year, but only offensively, and only from horrid to meh. He no longer plays defense. Like at all. We managed to find the PG with a lower steal rate than Calderon. The Bulls gave up 108.5 with Rose one the floor, 104.5 without.

      Rose has seven dunks in his last 4000 minutes. Langston Galloway has 11. Robin Lopez is not DeAndre Jordan but he is on an extremely affordable contract that has absolutely has (had) significant value. What a crazy trade. Wait until the Rose extension rumors start or the big Marvin Williams contract.

    182. If you match Rose with, say Lance Stephenson and Dwight Howard we are right there!

      …and the band played on.

    183. As a side note, RoLo was an incredibly likable player to root for and Derrick Rose responded to questions about his sexual assault allegations last preseason by ruminating about how big his next contract will be.

    184. Would you play well if you could for a new $130 million contract?

      So, you think that Rose could have played well over the past four years, but because he already had a fat contract, he didn’t feel like it? That is more damning than anything JK47 has written.

    185. If we add Noah, Gasol plus say, Courtney Lee this team could win a championship.

      Rose
      Lee
      Noah
      Melo
      KP

    186. Ok so going forward…what should Phil do with the 26 mil in cap room? All is forgiven for me if Whiteside, Daniels, and Teletovic sign with the Knicks and Williams, Thomas, Galloway, and Hernangomez are in the fold. Well not all..but much of it

    187. @236 That’s another good point that I was thinking about, too. Lopez, Calderon and Grant all appear to be good guys. Rose is a dick. What about Phil’s “culture change?”

      Yeah, yeah, I know, supposedly nice guys finish last.

    188. Mr. Walsh, it has been known to happen before. But if we get the upside of it then I really don’t care.

    189. Would you play well if you could for a new $130 million contract? He can.

      I’m pretty sure you need at least one functioning knee to play well in the NBA.

    190. Mr. Walsh, it has been known to happen before. But if we get the upside of it then I really don’t care.

      By that logic, then Rose will go back to being horrible again in 2017, after securing a new big contract. That’s the absolute worst case scenario, and you are actively wishing for it!

    191. Derrick Rose is just Stephon Marbury 2.0 minus the vaseline eating.

      He needs to get the face tat first

    192. Recap of last week’s thread:

      Optimists: “I’d take a flyer on Rose, but only if the Bulls throw in assets.”

      Pessimists: “The Bulls are going to want assets in return.”

      Optimists: “Who would pay actual assets to get Rose?”

      Pessimists: “Well, the Knicks come to mind.”

      There is a reason that this board is over-run by pessimists. The reason is the New York Knicks.

    193. Once we secure Durant and Rose plays his balls off for us, we can let him go and sign Westbrook next year if we want to. Stop thinking so small. Phil is light years ahead of all of us.

    194. “Any chance Rose might fail his physical?”
      Where’s Tonya Harding when we really need her

    195. Lol, you guys should look at what Marbury did while he was here. Rose is a thousand times worse. The only positive is we didn’t give up any picks.

    196. My reaction is:
      Let’s see what comes next before we roast Phil. Maybe he has the drop on something big…that’s the best I got guys, sorry.

    197. jkhar, some guys call me a troll and some want to ban me.
      Just for being a Knicks fan.
      I’ll never stop.

    198. I’d be surprised if Noah isn’t signed to be the replacement for weirdo Lopez. Noah’s better than him and will cost less. #upgrade

    199. Apparently lots of Bulls fans don’t like the trade?? Huh? Big name syndrome.

      The mass media likes it. Seeing grades of B and such so far. Wow. Big name syndrome.

      Still waiting to hear that a 1st rounder is coming…
      :-)

    200. @reub

      Just a question. What would the ideal Knickerblogger look like to you? Would we all just post smiley faces and agree with each other about how great every decision the team makes is? Would we never discuss what we hope the Knicks do in the future for fear of the front office doing somethign different and us having to backtrack? What in your opinion is the purpose of writing words on these boards if our only job as fans is to just say, “I agree with what Phil said!”?

    201. And can somebody please give JR a pay raise so that he can afford to wear a shirt?

    202. @256

      Lopez makes his foul shots. And he’s a good basketball player in 2017. And he’s locked up for no money through 2019. Reub, I really can’t stand you today. Positivity makes for great reading, but stupidity does not

    203. Fun fact #3: Derrick Rose was the fifth least productive player in the entire NBA last season in terms of Wins Produced (the only players who produced fewer wins were Kobe Bryant, Emmanuel Mudiay, Markieff Morris and Paul Pierce)

      Hey, at least we didn’t draft Mudiay.

      That’s all I got. I’m hoping this clears the way for signing Whiteside…but even then, we should have got more for Lopez, a very good player on a great contract. I don’t know which I like less, DRose or his game. So depressed he’s on our team.

      What was that above about Hahn tweeting we’re coming out with a #2 pick? Presumably that was a mistake referring to a second round pick. If somehow the #2 pick materializes, though, then this is an awesome trade.

    204. Maybe there are new PEDs out there that can restore Derrick Rose’s athleticism, German blood spinning… I’m trying really hard.
      There has to be a part B to this move. Otherwise this just makes me think of Steve Francis.

    205. An ideal Knickerblogger would realize that part of what I say is meant to arouse the real Knick fan in all of us.

    206. I was tired of Lopez looking in the wrong direction before shooting those foul shots. Weren’t you?

      And how many times did we have to watch Grant falling down?

      Calderon thinking he’s at a Spanish bullfight?

    207. We still have $30M in cap space. Screw D Rose, let’s use that money to add

      A) Hassan Whiteside, or
      B) Kent Bazemore and Bismack Biyombo.

      I guess Al Horford would be cool, too.

    208. Reub has real value.

      The Knicks are going to be totally unwatchable, and Phil Jackson is a dead man walking, so the only entertainment value I will have this season is repeatedly doling out “I told you so’s” to our man reub here.

      It’s not much, but it’s something.

    209. Al Horford would be the classic pants on head developmentally challenged move for the Knicks to make.

    210. Oh boy. It’s going to be a long, annoying summer on this blog… I’m skeptical, but not drinking the poisoned kool-aid like everyone else here.

      If you take it as a given that Rose is nothing more than the player he was last season, then obviously this trade is pointless. I think it’s clear that the Knicks brass feels Rose has the potential to bounce back to something approaching his former levels and/or weren’t interested in a $110 million gamble on Mike Conley. Maybe they are right, maybe not, but I thinks it’s pointless to judge until we actually, you know… find out. 8 months from now the league might be wondering how the hell the Knicks managed to land Derrick Rose for nothing more than Robin Lopez and salary filler. If the “worst” thing that happens is Rose plays well enough to earn another nice contract, I won’t be complaining. We are in no way bound to him for more than a year, and if it doesn’t work he’ll come off the books in time for the summer of CP3 and Westbrook.

      As for what we have up, meh. Robin Lopez was a decent player but really the definition of “nothing special.” Trading him allows us to keep some cap space open and continue building the team this summer. I have to imagine he was moved because the Knicks are quite confident they can land an impact big man in free agency.

      This was in no way, shape or form a “safe” move, but it’s far, far too early to judge it. I think it’s clear Phil felt the more conventional options (beg Mike Conley to take a max deal? Give Kent Bazemore a $16mm AAV 4 year deal?) were not going to move the needle. This trade is a swing for the fences. It could be a huge swing and a miss, or it could prove brilliant. I refuse to say one way or another until we see how the draft/free agency goes and the results on Rose come in on the court. Fortune does occasionally favor the bold, and this move was nothing if not bold.

    211. I mean, for the present, at least we can delude ourselves into hoping this is part 1 of a still-developing backroom deal. What’s our ideal part 2?

    212. @270. Yeah, where are the Whiteside and Biyombo guys who have been wanting Lopez gone all along?

      You know, Horford would be really interesting, if he could be gotten for a decent deal. However, whoever we sign is going to have to be close to as productive as Lopez was for $14m or less. Hard to imagine any decent C being signed for that or less, unless Phil already has a wink-wink deal with Pau Gasol?

      It’s gonna be Gasol or Noah for cheap. Hold the fort for a year or two until KP is ready to fully take over. I’d guess that KP with be playing a bunch at the 5 this year. Hornacek wants to run.

    213. I don’t begrudge the Knicks for trading Lopez since there are so many good players available at his position this off season. However, you can’t let it go idly that Lopez, Grant, and Calderon were our only valuable players on the roster and we let them go for a salary dump and a 2nd round pick on a team that is going to win 50 games next year. That’s so stupid.

      This is NOT Bargnani or Eddy Curry, though. The Knicks didn’t give up any draft picks and it can only hurt the Knicks for 82 games. Those trades set the Knicks back a couple seasons. This trade can actually catapult the Knicks ahead a few seasons. If Derrick Rose plays good basketball for the first time since 2012 we have a good PG. If D Rose sucks we have a high lottery pick and Melo demands we trade him to the Clippers or Heat or something. The only way this bites the Knicks in the ass is if we sign bad contracts with the $30M. We still have Porzingis, cap space, and all of our 1st round picks going forward.

      I’ve been a Knicks fan my whole life. I’ve seen much worse, and this trade gets a TBD from me. I need to see what we do in free agency before I grade it.

    214. @275 Phil really worships cap flexibility. Rose is gone in one year and now no 2 more years of Lopez taking up space (though I’d argue that he was a value at his current $ number).

      One huge silver lining for me is NO RONDO. Also, no picks traded away. That’s why this deal is nowhere near as bad as the Bargnani one.

      Also, no way the Knicks are in the bidding for DeRozan. Can’t have 2 guards who can’t shoot.

      Phil is punting 2016 for 2017, for better or worse. Has Melo reacted yet? He finally has his 2nd “star” to play with…

    215. @277, I’m the only person on this blog that wanted Lopez gone. I’m still here, dawg.

    216. I could see a one year overpay for one of Noah and gasol. save cap space for next summer.

      I don’t think it’ll be a cheap deal for either Noah or Gasol unless we are willing to give multiple years.

    217. @280. I don’t think you were the one who called the Lopez defenders circle jerkers!
      :-)

      @281. Noah could be cheap. Gasol less so.

    218. It would be ironic if we signed Noah and Gasol. After all the shit Melo took for not signing with the Knicks instead of the ready-to-contend Bulls, we just brought the Bulls to Melo.

    219. Bazemore and Biyombo.
      Whiteside and Solomon Hill.

      Derrick Rose does not change the Knicks flexibility. All he does is change the Knicks FA priorities.

    220. @283. Well, less Jimmy Butler!

      I wonder why the cut of Wroten today? They didn’t really owe him anything until October and could have taken a look at him in the SL. Odd, but certainly no big deal.

      Phil really dumped some assets today, almost all in the name of cap flexibility.

      Knicks now need a starting C, starting SG, backup PG.

    221. @275 Phil really worships cap flexibility.

      He gave the highest paid guy on the roster a NTC

    222. According to Robert Randolph of the Friday Night Knicks Theme-song on Twitter, the Knicks are interested in Bazemore, Mozgov, OJ Mayo (yikes) and Hassan Whiteside. That’s fun, right?

    223. Before this trade, the Knicks had a few shitty point guards, no shooting guards, Melo, Porzingis and Lopez.

      Now the Knicks have one shitty point guard, no shooting guards, Melo, Porzingis and no center.

      PHIL GOT 13 RINGZ DOE

    224. Just on PG play alone the Knicks are probably something like 5 wins worse than last year post trade. Rose is really fucking bad.

    225. The Knicks had a putrid .483 eFG% last year. That ranked 28th in the league. Fixing their eFG% should have been job one in this offseason.

      Instead they traded away Robin Lopez (.539 eFG%) and Jose Calderon (.552 eFG%) and got Derrick Rose in return (.448 eFG%).

      And people here are still defending this godawful trade. Unbelievable.

    226. No one is seriously defending it, though. Frank isn’t actually defending it. He’s trying to see the other side, but it’s not like he’s really defending it.

    227. As someone who lives in Chicago and watched a fair amount of Bulls games last year, Rose was pretty much checked out mentally all of last season. Maybe a change of scenery will help enough that he’s just one of the worst starting point guards in the league rather than pretty much THE worst point guard who played any kind of significant minutes. Just a terrible trade unless Phil is just looking for every scrap of cap space he can find for 2017 and even then it’s still pretty bad.

    228. I’m still not defending the trade, but like others have said, this is nowhere near Bargnani type bad b/c Rose can be gone in a year and no picks were sent out.

      I’m willing to go with the idea that, maybe, we are overrating Lopez and Grant. But, there are lots of warts to be seen in Rose…

    229. The thing about cap space is that it’s only good to the extent that you can fill it with players who are productive relative to their salaries. That’s not easy to do. Robin Lopez was already giving you good production relative his salary. In order to make trading him just to open cap space logical you have to spend the cap space on something better than Robin Lopez. With the cap ballooning that only gets tougher. To get something more valuable than Robin Lopez with 13.5M in additional space next summer Phil is going to have to pull off some great signings.

      And even if he does that, he still could almost certainly could have just dumped RoLo miore efficiently than this. I can’t believe that with every team under the sun supposedly looking sell their picks and also having cap space we couldn’t have just picked up a generic 1st rounder for RoLo if that’s the direction we wanted to go. I will never understand this move.

    230. Bargnani is not the competence benchmark. Robin Lopez has a valuable contract with an opportunity cost. We set it on fire.

    231. This is very much along the lines of Curry/Bargs. It’s a similar kind of trade: the Knicks are giving up six years of control of RoLo/Grant for one year of a player that nobody on the planet wants. The Knicks could have gotten something WAY better for that package, because RoLo is a really good value on that contract and Grant’s contract is basically peanuts. Sure, great, Rose will be gone in a year– Bargs was gone in two years too. But the Knicks gave up something and got nothing, as they are wont to do.

      This is just such a fucking terrible franchise. The Knicks, Nets and Kings are the dregs of the NBA. It is what it is.

    232. Unless we get some real rough ryders in soon we’re looking at adding some decent FAs and finishing up with mid to low 30 wins again barring a great leap forward from Porzingis, so IDK, this trade was pretty fucking dumb.

    233. I’m usually one of the most unrealistically optimistic people here and I can’t think of a single thing to say to defend this hopelessly moronic move. Unless, of course, Durant has whispered to Phil that he’ll sign with the Knicks if they acquire Rose, in which case I can defend it — but just barely.

    234. The ONLY good thing about this trade is that it is Phil Jackson’s Waterloo. This next season will be Phil’s last.

    235. This is very much along the lines of Curry/Bargs. It’s a similar kind of trade: the Knicks are giving up six years of control of RoLo/Grant for one year of a player that nobody on the planet wants. The Knicks could have gotten something WAY better for that package, because RoLo is a really good value on that contract and Grant’s contract is basically peanuts. Sure, great, Rose will be gone in a year– Bargs was gone in two years too. But the Knicks gave up something and got nothing, as they are wont to do.

      This is just such a fucking terrible franchise. The Knicks, Nets and Kings are the dregs of the NBA. It is what it is.

      Oh, I agree that it is like those trades. Those trades were just worse.

    236. Allan Houston will probably replace Phil so let’s not start rubbing our hands together just yet.

    237. And what really scares me is that Hornacek seems happy about it — which makes me very worried about our coach.

    238. What keeps this out of Bargs/Curry territory is those trades made us significantly worse while also giving another team the benefit of our bad play.

    239. I’m usually one of the most unrealistically optimistic people here and I can’t think of a single thing to say to defend this hopelessly moronic move. Unless, of course, Durant has whispered to Phil that he’ll sign with the Knicks if they acquire Rose, in which case I can defend it — but just barely.

      Yeah, that really is it. If Durant somehow said, “I will only sign with you if you get D-Rose,” then okay.

    240. The Knicks are so talent starved right now that signing Durant puts us in the ‘compete for the 7/8 seed’ territory. He’d have to be brain damaged to chose to come here.

    241. This feels like the first time the media actually had a clue about what Phil was thinking of doing, as the rumors of Knicks’ interest in Rose came out a week ago.

    242. The media called Phil’s interest in Greg Monroe and Arron Afflalo before free agency began last year. Monroe was being reported months before free agency began.

      And they didn’t have cap room before last year, so they couldn’t really be in on that then, ya know? The media also said that Phil was desperate to trade Felton and JR and wanted to deal Chandler.

    243. So, Evan Turner up next?!?! Can’t wait to see our starting backcourt combine for 25% on 3s

    244. I don’t remember Afflalo’s name being bandied about last year. Howard Beck had it at one point but that was a blip, however accurate.

      What I can’t fathom is how the Knicks surrendered 3 rotation guys today while losing another 2 yesterday. I know they were part of a bad team last year, but they can’t backfill the entire roster in an offseason and compete.

      This is the third time they’ve been at square one in 3 years with Phil.

    245. I honestly don’t know what to make of this trade. On the surface rose looks completely done. What are we missing and what does Phil see?

      Rose has had extreme suck fever since 2012. The only positive one can say is his play after the all star break (21 games)was much better. TS% .521 and 3pt shooting 37.5%. Maybe they have evidence physically he has turned the corner?

      The losses of Calderon (no value at the trade deadline this past season) and Grant (pretty much a bust) are unimportant.

      The issue is Rolo. Can we sign Horford ( a significantly better player than Rolo) for 20M per? if so, Horford , Rose and 24 Million in cap space may be better than Calderon, Grant, Rolo and 30 M in cap space this year. There are options to replace Rolo for cash. He’s not indispensable and there are better options available.

      Maybe Phil has a deal on the table for Boston’s 3 picks for Melo and he needs to convince Melo to go?

      The again it is more likely Phil was laying in his beneficial spot trippin’ with his old friend Mescalito outside Page, Az on the south shore of Lake Powell in some Navajo sweat lodge and dreamed this all up.

    246. I don’t remember Afflalo’s name being bandied about last year. Howard Beck had it at one point but that was a blip, however accurate.

      I went back and checked and someone had it (Woj?) it on June 29th.

    247. Oh boy. It’s going to be a long, annoying summer on this blog… I’m skeptical, but not drinking the poisoned kool-aid like everyone else here.

      If you take it as a given that Rose is nothing more than the player he was last season, then obviously this trade is pointless. I think it’s clear that the Knicks brass feels Rose has the potential to bounce back to something approaching his former levels and/or weren’t interested in a $110 million gamble on Mike Conley. Maybe they are right, maybe not, but I thinks it’s pointless to judge until we actually, you know… find out. 8 months from now the league might be wondering how the hell the Knicks managed to land Derrick Rose for nothing more than Robin Lopez and salary filler. If the “worst” thing that happens is Rose plays well enough to earn another nice contract, I won’t be complaining. We are in no way bound to him for more than a year, and if it doesn’t work he’ll come off the books in time for the summer of CP3 and Westbrook.

      As for what we have up, meh. Robin Lopez was a decent player but really the definition of “nothing special.” Trading him allows us to keep some cap space open and continue building the team this summer. I have to imagine he was moved because the Knicks are quite confident they can land an impact big man in free agency.

      This was in no way, shape or form a “safe” move, but it’s far, far too early to judge it. I think it’s clear Phil felt the more conventional options (beg Mike Conley to take a max deal? Give Kent Bazemore a $16mm AAV 4 year deal?) were not going to move the needle. This trade is a swing for the fences. It could be a huge swing and a miss, or it could prove brilliant. I refuse to say one way or another until we see how the draft/free agency goes and the results on Rose come in on the court. Fortune does occasionally favor the bold, and this move was nothing if not bold

      This is mainly my stance. Lopez…

    248. …was cool and I would’ve like to see what improvements a year-2 Jerian Grant can make. This move tells me Phil is punting next season for more cap space and possibly a lottery pick.
      I just lol’d hard when I saw the trade alert come up on my phone. It feels like the type of move that tells you more moves are on the way. Just like when Ewing was traded- we ended up with Glen Rice (who we didnt need) and that was supposed to be the set up for us to get Motumbo from Atlanta (who, from what I remember, was damn near promised to be traded b/c superagent David Faulk had he and Ewing as clients). The Motumbo part of that equation, however, never materialized.

      I just dont know… I’ll wait and see, but i dunno, man.

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