Knicks Morning News (2015.03.30)

  • [New York Times] 76ers Favored Twice This Week, So What Happened to Tanking? (Mon, 30 Mar 2015 06:52:16 GMT)

    They have the look of such favorites that Las Vegas likes them twice this week, once while on a back-to-back and the other time on the road.

  • [New York Times] James Scores 20 and Cavaliers Slip Past 76ers 87-86 (Mon, 30 Mar 2015 04:13:14 GMT)

    The Cleveland Cavaliers won’t get style points for Sunday’s 87-86 win over the Philadelphia 76ers.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Game of the Week: Clippers at Trail Blazers (Mon, 30 Mar 2015 04:10:34 GMT)

    The Clippers could face the Trail Blazers in the first round of the playoffs, making Wednesday night’s game a potential preview.

  • [New York Times] Thunder Rallies to 109-97 Win at Phoenix (Mon, 30 Mar 2015 03:52:09 GMT)

    Russell Westbrook had 33 points, nine rebounds and seven assists, and the Oklahoma City Thunder rallied from 20 points down to beat the Phoenix Suns 109-97 on Sunday night.

  • [New York Times] N.B.A. Roundup: Cavs Survive 76ers and Extend Home Streak (Mon, 30 Mar 2015 03:20:39 GMT)

    LeBron James scored 20 points, Kyrie Irving added 17 and the Cleveland Cavaliers hung on for an 87-86 victory over the visiting Philadelphia 76ers on Sunday.

  • [New York Times] Pacers Get Back in Playoff Chase With 104-99 Win Over Dallas (Mon, 30 Mar 2015 03:01:27 GMT)

    Indiana has already shifted into playoff gear.

  • [New York Times] Leonard Has Double-Double to Lead Spurs Past Grizzlies (Mon, 30 Mar 2015 01:37:26 GMT)

    Kawhi Leonard had 25 points and 10 rebounds, and the San Antonio Spurs cruised to a 103-89 victory over the Memphis Grizzlies on Sunday.

  • [New York Times] Nets 107, Lakers 99: Win Is a Win, as the Nets Continue a Playoff Push (Mon, 30 Mar 2015 01:18:44 GMT)

    Brook Lopez had 30 points and 11 rebounds as the Nets, despite struggling against the Lakers, won their third straight.

  • [New York Times] Clippers Beat Celtics 119-106 for 7th Straight Win (Mon, 30 Mar 2015 01:04:26 GMT)

    J.J. Redick scored 27 points, Chris Paul had 21 points and 10 assists, and the Los Angeles Clippers beat the Boston Celtics 119-106 on Sunday for their seventh consecutive win.

  • [New York Times] Ailing Wade, Aching Heat Find a Way to Beat Pistons, 109-102 (Mon, 30 Mar 2015 00:46:21 GMT)

    Dwyane Wade scored 40 points one day after having fluid removed from his balky left knee, Udonis Haslem set season highs with 18 points and 13 rebounds, and the undermanned Miami Heat beat the Detroit Pistons 109-102 on Sunday night.

  • [New York Post] Walt Frazier’s brilliance, and why Carmelo would throw it away (Mon, 30 Mar 2015 00:31:14 -0400)

    First and foremost, happy 70th to Walt Frazier. Where does the time go? If there's one indisputable New York City truth the past, oh, 50 years, it's that Walt Frazier made…

  • [ESPN.com – New York Knicks] Phil invokes higher authority for rebuild (Mon, 30 Mar 2015 00:48:36 EDT)

    NEW YORK — One day after his New York Knicks made the wrong kind of history, team president Phil Jackson took to Twitter to talk about the rebuild that lies ahead. We will rebuild a team that fits together-guys that want to compete and play the way bball gods approve.#groundup— Phil Jackson (@PhilJackson11) March 30, 2015It’s interesting that Jackson would use the hashtag “#groundup” at the end of the tweet. He had an opportunity to start the Knicks’ rebuild from the ground up in the truest sense last summer when Carmelo Anthony hit free agency.

  • [New York Daily News] Derek Fisher still backed by Phil Jackson, colleagues (Mon, 30 Mar 2015 03:06:35 GMT)

    Derek Fisher didn’t flinch before offering a deadpan response when asked to predict a favorite in the Eastern Conference this spring.

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    124 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2015.03.30)”

    1. Seems the consensus around here is that Towns is the guy if available when the knicks pick. Have to say I’ve been entirely underwhelmed by the tournament play of Okafor, Towns, Stanley Johnson and several other top-5 talent. The more I watch, the more I think trying to trade the pick for 2 firsts may be a better option.

    2. It is but I don’t think there are any possible trades that would be of equivalent or greater value–our trade partner would have to be Philly but it doesn’t look like the Lakers are falling out of the top 5 so Philly doesn’t get that pick and there’s no team that would be worth trading down for unless there’s future picks involved. I’m against that kind of draft day trade because current picks hold way more value than future ones even when you don’t correct for the quality of each draft (it’s likely that this one is going to be better/way better than the next two).

    3. I could live with trading this year’s #1 for a first this year and a #1 next year sits well with me as long as this year’s pick doesn’t fall outside the top 15. We need picks.

    4. “Have to say I’ve been entirely underwhelmed by the tournament play of Okafor, Towns, Stanley Johnson and several other top-5 talent.”
      Have to say that underwhelming is putting it mildly. The only time that I watch college basketball is in the tournament and I have been stunned at how unimpressive most of the guys projected to go in the top 15 have been. Lottery guys should stand out when they play college games and none of the top guys has even looked like the best guy on the court, never mind a difference maker on the next level. Okafor was getting schooled yesterday by guys who will likely never set foot on an NBA court. I’m interested to see how he tests at the combine. If he is able to jump more than 25 inches, I’ll be shocked. It’s pretty depressing that we are counting on one of these guys to be a cornerstone of the team in coming years.

    5. Okafor was getting schooled yesterday by guys who will likely never set foot on an NBA court.

      Not sure about that. Sabonis will probably be a lottery pick next year, and given his size/strength/passing ability you have to figure Karnowski will get a look as well. Those two have pretty much dominated the tournament so far.

      The narrative re: Okafor and Towns still has a ways to go. Towns looked amazing…being single-covered by a 6’8″ guy who probably weighs 30 lbs less than him (the size difference was so noticeable even though their “official weights/heights” are not so different). And even though Towns has a great defensive rep, it was basically a parade to the layup line for Notre Dame for much of the game.

      Would be fantastic to have Kentucky-Duke in the final and see these guys actually match up against each other.

    6. The only guys I’ve seen that I like are Dekker (Wisconsin) and Winslow (Duke) — clearly not top 3 pick material, but seemingly intelligent, talented players with good motors. Winslow was out-rebounding guys that he was giving 4+ inches to. Dekker may be no more than a future 6th man in the NBA, but I love watching this kid play. I hope I’m wrong and that he far exceeds my expectations.

      On a slightly different topic, let me apologize ahead of time, but I’ve been in a self-inducted hibernation when it comes to the Knicks this season. I truly did not watch my first game until it was the group of d-leaguers that we currently have playing. I’d much rather watch Langston WhatsHisName lose 60 games than Melo, Stat, JR and Shump. For the season, I may have watched 2 full games.

      That said, who are some of the gettable big man FA targets that the knickerbloggers are hoping to have on the Knicks next season? Monroe? DeAndre?

    7. That said, who are some of the gettable big man FA targets that the knickerbloggers are hoping to have on the Knicks next season? Monroe? DeAndre?

      I’m still harboring some hope that Marc Gasol comes. Memphis was borderline non-competitive this past week against Cleveland and GS at home, and SA ran away from them last night. If they’re a first round loser this year, I can see Gasol buying the idea that he needs to get out of the West.

    8. just wondering — what do the WoW folks like THCJ and DRed think of Monroe? His #s this year are very good by WoW – WP48 – ie. ranks 7th pretty much across the board amongst PFs.

      And his reputation as a bad defender has been called into question in a couple places just on a quick google search:
      http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-all-star-team-eastern-western-conference/
      http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2015/1/30/7913159/pistons-news-roundup-greg-monroe-defense-trade-rumors

      His defensive dashboard #s at nba.com look pretty much average, which is more than we can say for most NYK big men over the last decade.

    9. Want to know more about Monroe. Very few players I can think of come into the league, put up numbers like he did his first two years, then regress so dramatically the next two. Almost unprecedented.

      Love to hear more from someone who actually has been watching the games because it’s damn strange.

    10. Have to say that underwhelming is putting it mildly. The only time that I watch college basketball is in the tournament and I have been stunned at how unimpressive most of the guys projected to go in the top 15 have been.

      I’ve said multiple times this year when some posters were going on and on about how this year’s draft is what last year’s draft was supposed to be that the cycle is the same every year. In the beginning of the year these guys get built up like crazy, and then inevitably there starts to be some backlash around tournament time when most people start actually watching them play regularly. I don’t think this year’s draft class is particularly remarkable (good, but not remarkable), but I also think it’s important to remember how young all the top guys are these days.

      When you say:” Lottery guys should stand out when they play college games and none of the top guys has even looked like the best guy on the court, never mind a difference maker on the next level” you have to remember that these top picks aren’t juniors and seniors like they were back in the day. Now they’re 18-year olds. It’s only natural that a lot of the time the best guy on the court is going to be someone 2 or 3 years older, even if they’re not the same level of prospect as a guy like Towns or Okafor. That’s a big difference from the way things used to be where the final four teams inevitably had a lot of superstar juniors and seniors.

    11. The problem with Monroe (and to a certain extent even Kevin Love, whose defense is possibly much worse than Monroe’s) is that we already have filled the “scorer and not much else” role in our lineup. Monroe’s rebounding numbers are very good (especially considering that he plays alongside a monster rebounder in Drummond), but his TS% is not that good.

      To further examination, I provide you some numbers: who is Monroe, and who are the other two?
      Player A: TS 54,5%; ORB 11,3; DRB 22,9%; TRB 16,9%; AST 12,6%; STL 2%; BLK 1,5%; TOV 13,8%; WS48 0,130
      Player B: TS 51,4%; ORB 11,5; DRB 24,6%; TRB 17,9%; AST 6,4%; STL 1,2%; BLK 2,5%; TOV 12,8%; WS48 0,104
      Player C: TS 60,3%; ORB 11,1; DRB 18,4%; TRB 14,9%; AST 7,5%; STL 1,4%; BLK 3,8%; TOV 15,1%; WS48 0,142

      All career stats (tip: there is one peculiar number that gives away the answer).

    12. i’m guessing Monroe is player A? Just because his assist rate is generally good for PF. No idea who the other 2 are.

      Monroe isn’t really a “scorer and not much else” player though. He’s a very good rebounder on both sides of the floor — 5th best overall rebounding rate among PFs, and that’s while playing next to Andre Drummond, who hoovers everything in sight. And out of starting PFs, he’s 3rd in offensive rebounding. He’s also a very good passer although is not asked to do much of that in Van Gundy’s offense.

    13. Monroe isn’t really a “scorer and not much else” player though.

      Yes, I am sort of wrong in putting that label on him. He can contribute in many other ways, but the fact is that offense is where he is better, and our offensive output is pretty much taken care of, or better yet, I see the idea of splurging big money (see: mini-max) on him a theoretical inefficency, since we need to spend money to assess our glaring deficiencies, and Melo has us almost cornered on the offensive end market (for all his flaws).

      Anyway, Frank is right, and he found the number that I wrote about: the AST% (which is the only reason why I could talk myself into Monroe in the hybrid Triangle system that Fisher is experimenting with). The other two, though, are:

      Player B: Kris Humphries
      Player C: Amir Johnson

      Johnson is going to be a free agent, and I guess he’s a guy who could be had for around 8mln/yr.

    14. The underwhelming performance of our future draft pick, whoever it may be, is a cold slap of reality for things to come. So much hope has been riding on this still unknown player to pull the knicks from the scrap heap.
      And there’s no clarity on any outstanding FA that there is a high probability to obtain.

      As it turned out, this season, which was supposed to be the first big step forward, into the playoffs with a new management, a new system, and a winning culture – was a big setback.
      Things can turn out better than expected. They often do. But the tea leaves right now indicate another lottery year in 2016, and no draft pick in 2017.

      This is going to be a long term build. . . and Phil is old and off to a poor start of his tenure.
      This is not a quick fix that he keeps alluding to. Piece by piece, this team should be put together with a long term (3 – 5 year minimum) perspective. I hope I’m wrong, but I’m sensing Phil wants to make some Isiah type moves to make this team relevant in the next year or two. That would be great, but not at the expense of the future. The last thing I want, is to be the 7th or 8th seed in two years, and be sold on hope for the future, but without a foundation to get there.

    15. I still think we could be a 7th-8th seed next year without sacrificing anything of our future (again, not that this should be our goal – our goal should be to build something slow and steady, and if playoffs come to us next year we’ll welcome them). The East is so weak that teams are falling ass-backwards into the 7th and 8th seed this year.

    16. I guess Hoola was saying that 2015-16 will be a lottery season but without a 2016-17 draft pick.

    17. And that assumes that Phil will not botch the draft pick as he did with Cleanthony Early and Thanasis, two clear misses.

      I don’t know how it is possible to “botch” picks no. 34 (15% probability of being a rotation player – 30% probability of being a bust or of never dressing up for an NBA game) and 51 (10% probability of being a rotation player – 70% probability of being a bust or of never dressing up for an NBA game).

      According to this study, at least.

    18. The underwhelming performance of our future draft pick, whoever it may be, is a cold slap of reality for things to come. So much hope has been riding on this still unknown player to pull the knicks from the scrap heap.

      No. Thats false. No one is waiting for a single player to “pull the knicks from the scrap heap” its a process that this pick will be a part of. smart Free agency moves and the return and aging of Carmelo Anthony are also a part of the equation. Not to mention Fishers growth.

    19. Somehow Phil Jackson creating cap space, acquiring young players, and being the first Knick’s president to acquire more draft picks than he’s given away doesn’t count as looking toward the future. No he’s clearly about the quick fix.

    20. No he’s clearly about the quick fix.

      Well, I seem to remember there was an article around a month ago where there was a Phil quote saying something along that line, but to be sure, everything done until now (MMM notwithstanding) looks like he’s looking with both eyes to the future.

      Edit: I should say everything since December. When we took Calderon in, we were looking at this season.

    21. Edit: I should say everything since December. When we took Calderon in, we were looking at this season.

      We acquired Calderon, Dalembert, Larkin, 2 picks, and ultimately Quincy Acy in that trade. That’s 4 future assets.

    22. By not selecting players who at least are young and have some skills. Anyone looking an Cleanthony Early would know the guy is not NBA material and too old to deserve a chance given by a team that can ill afford to miss so badly, even with late picks.

      Everyone plauded the pick at the time. I’m very disappointed in Early too, and I think it is unlikely he’ll ever develop in a good NBA player, but 1) it’s too early (haha) to say and 2) this is the list of players I would select now ahead of Early having the experience of almost a full year of watching them in real NBA games (who were available at 34): Jerami Grant and maybe (very maybe) Jordan Clarkson. If you’re telling me we could have drafted Langston Galloway I agree. Same with JaKarr Sampson. But, well, isn’t that what the D-League stands for. If anything, the real critique on Phil’s tenure until now is that he doesn’t seem to know how to fully exploit the D-League possibilities. That would be fair and accurate. No call-ups apart from Galloway and Ledo (ugh).

    23. Draft Express on Cleanthony:

      Wichita State’s Cleanthony Early ranks 2nd in this group scoring 1.11 points per possession due in large part to the fact that he was effective from all over the floor. He scored a group leading 1.13 points per possession in the post, 3rd ranked 1.11 points per jump shot, and an above average 1.28 points per shot around the rim. If there’s a downside to Early’s profile, it’s that he used fewer possessions than almost any player on this list creating his own shot in isolation and pick and roll situations, as Fred Van Vleet and Ron Baker handled essentially all of the shot creating duties away from the rim. There’s little doubt Early’s numbers are inflated to some degree by the quality of competition he faced in the Missouri Valley Conference, but his overall skill level and performance against quality teams leaves plenty of room for optimism that his numbers are an accurate reflection of his talent and that he can help spread the floor and exploit mismatches at the next level in time.

      You’re acting as if Phil is the only guy in the front office and doesn’t have a team of scouts and a GM working for him. Cleanthony is a reasonable second round pick.

      He is getting the big bucks to bring great expertise, exceptional judgement. So far, he has shown none.

      Not being either great or exceptional hardly means Phil is doing the godawful job that you claim he’s doing.

    24. @28

      But acquiring Calderon wasn’t obligatory, I think, unless Dallas saw the opportunity of unloading his contract on us as the price of them taking the Penguin. Anyway, yes, those other 4 were future assets (that haven’t panned out yet, but this is hardly Phil’s or Fisher’s fault).

    25. By not selecting players who at least are young and have some skills. Anyone looking an Cleanthony Early would know the guy is not NBA material and too old to deserve a chance given by a team that can ill afford to miss so badly, even with late picks.

      A few of the 2nd rounders that pan out are precisely seniors and juniors that other teams pass on based on their age.

      Who should have we drafted?

    26. Fair enough Farfa. We didn’t need to take Calderon. I’m just refuting the possible misunderstanding that the only reason we made that move was for this season, when the move judged as a whole has an eye on the future.

    27. I wasn’t a huge fan of the Cleanthony pick at the time (never want to be drafting 23-year olds who people are still describing as projects), but you really can’t be too harsh on a GM for missing on second round picks. As Farfa pointed out, they mostly miss.

      I’m also not sure how we’re writing off the Greak Frequel already. Another guy who suffers from “too old to be a project” syndrome, but he was certainly intended to be a multi-year development kind of guy. Lets see if he can improve enough this summer to make the team next year and earn some PT before we completely write off that pick. As with most things I would say Phil’s draft record isn’t particularly encouraging, but is still too small a sample to really draw anything like definitive conclusions.

    28. Ah, nothing like declaring two rookies–one being injured throughout the season and the other not having even played an NBA minute as abject failures. That’s clearly not jumping the gun.

      Cle has been bad but there’s no way you can say he’s a lost cause 3/4 of a way through a season in which he played sparingly. Obviously the likelihood of them panning out is low, but there’s no way you can lay that on Phil, like at all. It’s just the nature of drafting in the 2nd round.

    29. Fwiw I think there were better picks at 34 or whatever we were but it hardly constitutes a botch.

    30. Not me.

      I meant every pundit.

      Phil Jackson is supposed to above all that. He is not.

      How can it be possible to be above what everyone else is not? Is Phil a God? I bet if you were a Spurs fan you’d be lambasting their objectively great front office for picking Kyle Anderson, and for having swapped former 1st round pick Nando De Colo for Austin Daye and then for having Daye cut to sign JaMychal Green and then not hanging to him, essentially wasting two valuable (?) first round picks for nothing.

      PS: I still think Anderson will develop into a very nice 8th man.

    31. Is Phil a God?

      In doubt, if anyone ever asks you if you are one, remember to always answer yes, especially if asked by an Elder God in a Yugoslavian Supermodel form.

    32. People also applauded the Calderon move – and I said (at the time) that the only reason they applauded was because they had not seen him play.

      To reiterate, we acquired a lot more than Calderon in that trade. Both Calderon and Dalembert have put up numbers that are well above average according to several metrics. The move was considered good because we received considerations that were reasonable replacements immediately in addition to a number of young players and draft picks.

      Phil Jackson is supposed to be above all that. He is not.

      What is this claim in reference to? What is the “that” you refer to? Has anyone other than your straw men even claimed that Phil is an amazing president/gm?

    33. “and I said (at the time)”
      I’m not sure where you said it since, according to your “introductory post” a few weeks ago, you were just posting for the first time then. It’s pretty easy to say, “I told you so” when no one knows what you said at the time.
      Maybe I missed it, but has anyone answered the question re: who Phil should have drafted at 34 and 51 (and 55, since it is painfully obvious to everyone here that the French guy will never amount to anything even though none of us have ever seen him play) that would not have been “botched” second round picks?

    34. who Phil should have drafted at 34 and 51 (and 55, since it is painfully obvious to everyone here that the French guy will never amount to anything even though none of us have ever seen him play) that would not have been “botched” second round picks?

      I said @29 that if the draft was done now with the clause that you could only pick guys who were available at 34 the sensible picks could have been Jerami Grant (picked 39th), mayyyyybe Jordan Clarkson (picked 46th), our own Langston Galloway, JaKarr Sampson or – I forgot about him before – JaMychal Green. But hindsight is 20/20, and I still think Phil did good. Early and Thanasis are not done yet.

    35. List of San Antonio Spurs 2nd round draft picks:
      2014 – Jordan McRae, Cory Jefferson (who?)
      2013 – Deshaun Thomas (who?)
      2012 – Marcus Denmon (who?)
      2011 – Cory Joseph (good player), Adam Hanga (who?)
      2010 – James Anderson (who?), Ryan Richards (who?)
      2009 – Dejuan Blair (on his 3rd team, can’t get minutes), Jack McClinton (who?), Nando de Colo (who?)

      Wow, that RC Buford. He just swings and misses at everyone. He only has 1 contributing 2nd round draft pick out of 11 since 2009. They should just fire him now.

      The Calderon debacle, however, is clearly Phil’s biggest miss. To trade for a guy with a huge long contract and find out he really can’t play… ouch.

      The other stuff? All these “assets” are just fliers you take on young players. Very difficult to bash someone because 2nd round picks don’t work out. I still think Thanasis might have a good career. He needs to be able to shoot the 3 at a league average level and he’ll be a valuable player for years to come.

    36. Not a fan of Early, but I guess the question is who should Phil have selected? There was really not a lot available. Early was projected to go in the first round, so getting him at 34 was a decent gamble. Besides, you never know. Louis Labeyrie could be the second coming of . . . Lance Thomas.

      http://www.nbadraft.net/players/louis-labeyrie

    37. The Calderon debacle

      Too early to say. If the team around him is goodish, Jose is able to play.

    38. having swapped former 1st round pick Nando De Colo

      2009 – Dejuan Blair (on his 3rd team, can’t get minutes), Jack McClinton (who?), Nando de Colo (who?)

      Oh yeah, De Colo was a second round pick, my bad. I mistook him for Livio Jean-Charles, a 2013 first rounder.

    39. If you really want to lament draft picks, then look at who was drafted 3 picks after TH Jr. – Rudy Gobert, who is putting up monster numbers in Utah. That one hurts.

    40. If you really want to lament draft picks, then look at who was drafted 3 picks after TH Jr. – Rudy Gobert, who is putting up monster numbers in Utah. That one hurts.

      Gobert is the bizarro Frederic Weis.

    41. Even magicians need something to work with and Phil was handed a very bad hand.

      Could he have done a bit better? Probably, considering the 2 firsts Denver got for a lesser player than Chandler, and the next to nothing Phil got for 2 rotation players on a contender.

      On the other hand he hasn’t done huge mistakes (including the Melo contract which I don’t consider fatal) and he’s guided the Knicks to a top draft pick, which at some point was Danny Ainge’s best move. So I’d give him a B- for the season.

    42. If you really want to talk about bad GMs — Grunwald really sucked. Like terribly. Yes, he put together a team that won 54 games, but man did he saddle us with truly awful contracts and trades that have at least partially been responsible for a lot of the moves that we all hated — Novak 4 year deal for no reason, Felton 4 year deal no reason, JR 3 year deal for no reason, the Camby trade. just awful. I’m even letting him off the hook for the Bargnani trade.

    43. Gobert is the bizarro Frederic Weis.

      Never trust the French, I say.

      Just joking, obviously.

    44. Meanwhile I guess Berman was right about the unrest up in Westchester – they just fired their head coach with, what, 4 games left in the season?

    45. Oh, he was definitely correct about there being unrest there. Clearly they were going to get rid of the head coach. The issue was how he was projecting drama in Westchester as to drama about the Knicks. You know, like “The Westchester team is bad! That means Jackson is doing a bad job on the Knicks!” which doesn’t really follow. Not only does it not follow, but it’s a connection he never would have made if he hadn’t already decided that he was going to be ripping Jackson at every opportunity.

    46. and the next to nothing Phil got for 2 rotation players on a contender.

      We’ve literally gotten more value out of a D-leaguer than Shumpert or JR Smith gave us. What did we expect to get in return?

    47. We’ve literally gotten more value out of a D-leaguer than Shumpert or JR Smith gave us. What did we expect to get in return?

      I’ve never gotten the “The Knicks got slightly better after trading Shumpert and Smith, so Shumpert and Smith can’t be that good” riff, because the Cavaliers got much better after adding Shumpert and Smith. You can certainly argue that the improvement of the Cavaliers did not tie directly to Shumpert and Smith and I’d likely agree with you, but the same goes for the Knicks (and I’d definitely agree with you there). In other words, their performance after the trade is meaningless in either direction. It all comes down to how they were valued at the time of the trade, and at the time of the trade, Shumpert was valued highly enough that the Knicks were able to dump Smith with him, who no team in the NBA wanted any part of at all, not even the Sacramento Kings, who love to pick up terrible players. So Shumpert had value and Jackson felt that the best use of that value was to dump Smith. The dispute is over whether you think that that was a correct usage of Shumpert’s value. I thought it was fair enough (I thought it was about a C-level deal at the time) but I could easily see the argument against it.

    48. Phil has yet to get one.

      Hes had one year and no firsts. And how do we know that Cle and The will not be successful?

      Let’s not lose the perspective

      Exactly

    49. San Antonio is not the team you want to use in order to defend Phil’s performance. They have a lot of successful draft picks, more than any other team in the last 10 years. Phil has yet to get one.

      Let’s not lose the perspective.

      1) Sample Size
      2) It’s been 1 year

    50. It all comes down to how they were valued at the time of the trade, and at the time of the trade, Shumpert was valued highly enough that the Knicks were able to dump Smith with him, who no team in the NBA wanted any part of at all, not even the Sacramento Kings, who love to pick up terrible players.

      That’s fair. I love Shump but he had a sub .500 TS%, he’s injury prone, and he’s a free agent after this year. JR had a sub .500TS% and is JR Smith. I think Knicks fans are overrating Shump’s value and underrating the need the Cavs had for any shooting guard at all.

      My argument isn’t that the Knicks played better after the trade, but that Langston Galloway who could’ve been signed by anyone has literally performed better for the Knicks than either Shump or JR this year. Why should someone give up an asset for replacement level players?

    51. It’s not only the draft picks for San Antonio. It’s also the GM dealing with contracts, the press, negotiating with other teams, etc. Phil Jackson’s damage has gone way beyond not having much eye for talent.

      Instead of glossing over the bad performance, I choose to believe it’s too many serious blunders for 1.5 years. Others think 1.5 years are too little to judge Phil. That’s what it comes down to. I have seen enough.

      The Knicks’ front office goes way beyond Phil Jackson, even if he is the face of the organization. And specifically what blunders are you talking about? The MMM that won’t be so egregious in 2 years? The Chandler trade which I’ve addressed repeatedly? Go back and look at the numbers and consider what you do with an injury-prone, 31 year old who has a large drop off in production. If you look at any of the numbers from the preceding few years it is at the very least a reasonable trade. IN ADDITION, the Knicks got several young players and 2nd round picks. The Shump and JR deal? I’ve been addressing that too. None of the moves were incredibly fantastic but they’re all solid basketball moves, not “blunders”.

    52. Tearing apart the crap that was here has done years of damage?

      Yeah okay… Geez Cap, get a grip.

      Other than the Tyson Chandler trade we really didn’t lose any great performing players in any of the trades and the only bad contract that came back was Calderone and the expectation was that he would play better than he has. I know you like to say we should have dropped Melo and built around Chandler, but Chandler didn’t want that, and you know it was unrealistic that our owner was going to do anything but resign Melo.

      You can complain about Dolan sucking and we all agree, but Melo is and will be the centerpiece of this franchise for the next 4 years. Come to terms with that because it is not negotiable in any way.

      When you come to the realization that Melo was always going to be here, you can completely justify the Chandler trade because it looked like we were actually getting a return for giving up a disgruntled, oft injured, unmotivated employee. Chandler was the reason we didn’t get better pieces in that trade because of his attitude last season, so be pissed at him about it since he tanked his own value last year.

      Who cares how BCT handles the media? That has no effect on the on the court product.

      You can use SAs 2nd round draft record to point out that we’ve only had 2 second round picks in BCTs tenure to make into players and we have made 1 solid D-League aquisition so far in Galloway.

      I know, the sky is falling somehow because Phil ate caviar for lunch today, I’m sure.

    53. Chandler was the reason we didn’t get better pieces in that trade because of his attitude last season, so be pissed at him about it since he tanked his own value last year.

      Ha. They dont hear you though.

    54. 2013-2014 WP

      Chandler .222
      Dalembert .192

      Felton .072
      Calderon .146

      Knicks give up .294 WP
      Knicks gain .338 WP

      Terrible trade.

    55. There is a bright side to the Knick’s front office being ranked so low and many people thinking Phil is a terrible GM. It means we probably won’t have another Kerr sort of situation. Remember that Kerr was not talked about as a coaching candidate until Phil targeted him. Once he was targeted by Phil, then other teams thought about it and decided that Kerr could be a good coach. He definitely is a good coach, and Phil’s judge of talent there was good. Now if Phil say, seems to be targeting some player in the draft or for a trade, people are definitely not going to assume that the player must be good. That could help the Knicks.

    56. My eye test of Chandler playing like crap and being injured last year must have been clouded somehow. We all know players under contract often talk bad about their team in interviews as well.

    57. Tyson Chandler WS by year
      ’10-’11 .218
      ’11-’12 .220
      ’12-’13 .207
      ’13-14 .143
      14-15 .210

      Numbers don’t lie.

    58. Don’t forget that Chandler got abused by Hibbert in 2013 playoffs and was either injured, sick, or mailing it in all last year.

      Oh, and didn’t Hibbert just recently get the better of him again?

    59. Feel free to argue with each other, but come on, don’t do the whole “Talking about other posters with other posters” thing. Either be direct or don’t bother.

    60. I’m not sure why everyone is so down on Early. He lost some of the season to injury and was playing at well below 100% for other parts of it. He was sent down to D League specifically because all the lost playing time had impacted his conditioning. He may not be 100% yet. All that said, he may not turn into a rotation player. I don’t know any more than anyone else. I just feel confident in saying that his play this year has to a large extent be taken with a grain of salt. He’s a late selection rookie that was playing hurt. How much can you expect?

    61. you know what – I think Captain Luke is Jeff Van Gundy or Jerry Krause.

      Or….Pat Riley?

    62. I love Tyson, but if we’d kept him the Knicks would have sucked. We saw that team already-it was called last year’s Knicks. Who sucked. Now, they wouldn’t have sucked to this tremendous degree, but they would have sucked, and then Tyson probably would have walked, since he doesn’t want to waste the remainder of his career on bad/rebuilding teams. And then we’d be right back where we are right now, only without a good draft pick.

    63. I think the Chandler deal should be judged on how it looked at the time. At the time it was an “eh” trade. He was clearly by far their best trade asset, and Jackson still thought that the Knicks were going to be able to compete, so he knew Chandler was so valuable that he could do three things: 1. Dump Felton, 2. Pick up a point guard upgrade and a serviceable center so that they could still compete for a playoff spot and 3. Get some draft picks.

      I wasn’t all that impressed with what he got from Dallas, but nor was I aghast at it. It made some sense. I thought it was like a lot of Jackson’s trades, just “eh” deals – all Cs. In retrospect, yes, it was obviously a terrible deal because the Knicks would have been much, much better off just dealing Chandler for a single first round pick in 2015 or 2016 than for all that they got for him and then just eating Felton’s contract. Jackson likely should be knocked a bit extra for what Frank has nicely pointed out in the past, the idea that a GM should likely be more prescient than us, so a deal that looked okay to us that turned out poorly should be judged a little more harshly on the GM, but overall, I wasn’t and am still not that mad about the deal and don’t think that hindsight should be applied too liberally to the deal.

      But boy, imagine if they had just gotten a 2015 or 2016 first rounder for him? That would have been swell and it wouldn’t have made the team any better this year, so they’d still be in line for a top four pick.

    64. I guess it depends on what you think a wasted season would be in Chandler’s mind. Certainly Jackson expected to be contending for the playoffs, but my impression was along the lines of a 7-8th seed. I think it takes a heck of a lot of parsing and spin to think that Chandler was gung ho. It takes a lot more to call it a lie that Chandler wanted out b/c he did not want to stick around for a rebuild. It takes even more to play the martyr card.
      What I really find puzzling is how badly Dalembert sucked. He seems to have blackballed himself. I don’t know that anyone saw that coming. as for Calderon there was talk about how bad his defense was but just as much about his 3pt % and the addition by subtraction with respect to Felton.

    65. Yeah, it is amazing how Dalembart has literally played himself out of the NBA in less than half of a season.

    66. What I really find puzzling is how badly Dalembert sucked.

      I’m of the opinion that the new system had a negative impact on the offensive efficiency of many of the players (in some cases very negative).

      Dalembert was more or less doing his thing on the boards, blocking shots etc.. I think you could even say he improved his playmaking a tad. He just went from being mediocre on offense to very negative on offense.

      He’s the kind of guy that is easily frustrated. Then he throws in the towel. When he started losing playing time, I think he just phoned it in. Once that happened, his future (or lack thereof) here was sealed. The fact that no one wants him now is telling.

    67. Dalembert has long had a rep of being a lazy player. I think strat is right in that he clearly had no interest in learning the triangle. You’d think he would have been motivated to play for another contract, but he’s made around 86 million dollars over his career (sigh) and maybe he just doesn’t give a shit anymore.

    68. Let me suggest something to everyone.

      Spend a little time making a list of all the Knicks players this year. Put their TS% last year next to the TS% this year (just for the Knicks if there was a trade involved). It will become obvious how much of a negative impact the triangle (or coach) has had on the offense. If I had my spreadsheet available I’d save you the time, but I don’t have it now.

      IMO, any efficiency stats you see for NY players for this season should be taken with a grain of salt. Either the system has to be learned better, has to be modernized, or has to be shelved. The system has been a big part of the problem.

    69. Pretty amazing that a guy like Dalembert, known for his laziness, has made $86M while Nate Robinson, known for his motor, has made $22M.

    70. If I could do it all over again I would be 7′ tall and fairly athletic. And play the guitar.

    71. Spend a little time making a list of all the Knicks players this year. Put their TS% last year next to the TS% this year (just for the Knicks if there was a trade involved). It will become obvious how much of a negative impact the triangle (or coach) has had on the offense. If I had my spreadsheet available I’d save you the time, but I don’t have it now.

      You could easily make the reverse argument for players who left the Laker triangle – for example–
      Lamar Odom’s TS was 50 points higher (558 with LAL, 511 with LAC) in the triangle
      Pau Gasol’s TS with Phil – 639, 617, 593, 589 — then with Mike Brown 547 the next season

    72. At the end of the day you can pretty much throw out the numbers from this season, especially from the last half of this year. Every single player on this active roster right now is at best a 7th or 8th guy on a good team, and should never have a usage > 15, yet the top 4 usage guys (outside of Carmelo) are Ricky Ledo, Alexey Shved, Bargnani, and THJ. There’s not a single matchup on the floor for us where I say wow – we really have the advantage there. All these guys are being asked to do things way outside their comfort zone, and so of course it all looks terrible.

      I really don’t think the Triangle is the main problem. The main problem is utter lack of talent. IMHO the Triangle does exacerbate the issue because you’re taking untalented players and making them do things they’re uncomfortable with. I mean seriously – we were asking Dalembert and Cole to basically be point centers from the elbow. What could possibly go wrong?

    73. At the end of the day you can pretty much throw out the numbers from this season, especially from the last half of this year. Every single player on this active roster right now is at best a 7th or 8th guy on a good team, and should never have a usage > 15, yet the top 4 usage guys (outside of Carmelo) are Ricky Ledo, Alexey Shved, Bargnani, and THJ. There’s not a single matchup on the floor for us where I say wow – we really have the advantage there. All these guys are being asked to do things way outside their comfort zone, and so of course it all looks terrible.

      So that might make this season a bit of a live experiment on what happens when you put together a roster of low usage players. You know the “anyone can create a shot” v. “we need shot makers not shot takers” v. “5 Tyson’s = lots of shot clock violations” in over simplified terms.

    74. Going back to the JR and Shumpert trade. JR sucked so bad that Cleveland plugged him right into the starting lineup of a one of the top teams in the league. Obviously there are other factors but apparently if you use him correctly he does not suck. 188 WP48 in Cleveland vs. 003 in NY.

      Beating a dead horse here but a top GM sees that JR would work well in his Cleveland role and is able to sell other teams on this vision. It’s part of any business person’s job, and a GM should also be a good sales person.

    75. I think the combines will put an interesting spin on this draft. 1 and dones like Westbrook who didn’t have great stats in college moved up a lot after the combine. It will also be interesting to see how the bugs physically match up.

    76. The combine should propel Winslow at #5. If we end with the worst record, we’re safe (again, Winslow is not bad but we need a big or a complete guard/wing).

    77. Going back to the JR and Shumpert trade. JR sucked so bad that Cleveland plugged him right into the starting lineup of a one of the top teams in the league. Obviously there are other factors but apparently if you use him correctly he does not suck. 188 WP48 in Cleveland vs. 003 in NY.

      Beating a dead horse here but a top GM sees that JR would work well in his Cleveland role and is able to sell other teams on this vision. It’s part of any business person’s job, and a GM should also be a good sales person.

      If you use JR as your 4th option, he’s great. If you’re asking him to be your 1st or 2nd scorer, he’s terrible. Sixty-four percent of JR’s shots in Cleveland are 3 pointers. He’s a catch and shoot player in Cleveland as opposed to a creator of shots here.

      The other issue (that you alluded to) is that JR is being more professional in Cleveland (or is being forced into it by Cleveland the city and also Lebron). Even he admitted he was going out too much in NYC and that his play suffered because of it.

    78. JR sucked so bad that Cleveland plugged him right into the starting lineup of a one of the top teams in the league. Obviously there are other factors but apparently if you use him correctly he does not suck. 188 WP48 in Cleveland vs. 003 in NY.

      Its not even about sucking per se. Its about situations. JR can thrive with a structured system where he has one role. Spot up shooting and hustle. Hid did that fine here in NY as well. The problem is he had more responsibilities here leading to diminishing returns. Im happy for him honestly because hes a talented head case. But i still think shump sucks

    79. I may be going out on a limb here, but I totally expect JR to do something really dumb in the playoffs and cost Cleveland a game.

      But of course, this is the new mature, efficient JR that every team was clamoring for before the trading deadline.

    80. I’m puzzled by the dearth of talent in the second round.
      Generally, I don’t place much value on 2nd rounders. Sure, once in a while you can strike lightning, but usually, at best you’ll get a role player. Even if you get a bench player that’s playing regular minutes, that’s a good pick.
      On the other hand, with a large investment in scouting (paltry compared to players’ salaries), it seems that it would be, almost easy, to find high level talent after the 30th pick, especially considering these kids are 19 years old and haven’t blossomed or developed their game yet. In other football and baseball, it’s common for great players to be drafted in late rounds or picked up from the minors.

      Why not basketball, especially considering they’re often drafting guys after a single season in college.

    81. Hoola, I guess it’s because there are literally a much lesser chance for a guy to play when you can have only 5 players on the floor. Also you have no contractual obligation to a 2nd round pick, so if you need to make space, you cut them/throw them away. Also most coaches feel compelled to play their first round pick to keep their FO sedated.

    82. You could easily make the reverse argument for players who left the Laker triangle – for example–
      Lamar Odom’s TS was 50 points higher (558 with LAL, 511 with LAC) in the triangle
      Pau Gasol’s TS with Phil – 639, 617, 593, 589 — then with Mike Brown 547 the next season

      I agree. The data suggests that Phil Jackson moved players up as a coach.

      But that was Phil Jackson coaching, the game has been changing, and those players played with the triangle for awhile. That’s why I listed several possibilities about what the problem is related to the system (including the coach)

      I really don’t think the Triangle is the main problem. The main problem is utter lack of talent.

      We sucked and everyone was underperforming when Melo was playing and BEFORE Phil blew up the team.

    83. We sucked and everyone was underperforming when Melo was playing and BEFORE Phil blew up the team.

      Shumpert sucks on offense. JR had no idea what to do in the offense. Dalembert decided chucking up, shots from the elbow were the only option he could choose.

    84. We sucked and everyone was underperforming when Melo was playing and BEFORE Phil blew up the team.

      This is definitely true, and I think the system was clearly a problem at that point – we were running very little of the sorts of action our players were comfortable in and it was showing – every time down the court looked more like guys going through a half speed walkthrough of a new play on the first day it’s installed than how it’s supposed to look at full speed in an NBA game. However, I do think Fisher has done some work to fix some of that – particularly putting in significantly more sets with multiple PnRs – and the players have looked more comfortable running the offense the second half of the year. The results have still been awful obviously, but, as we’re all too well aware of, by that point he was running the offense with such a skeleton crew that making judgements is pretty tough.

      I’m not particularly a fan of the triangle, but I think Fisher deserves at least a little more time and a little more talent before we write off his offense completely. We’re really only talking about 30ish games where he had an NBA-quality roster. For a brand new, zero experience coach, that’s super short.

    85. If you use JR as your 4th option, he’s great. If you’re asking him to be your 1st or 2nd scorer, he’s terrible. Sixty-four percent of JR’s shots in Cleveland are 3 pointers. He’s a catch and shoot player in Cleveland as opposed to a creator of shots here.

      That’s exactly my point. Phil should have known that and therefore realize that JR has value for Cleveland, and probably other teams as well. He was simply outsmarted.

    86. I can’t argue, or argue about how we are not really arguing, about Phil Jackson anymore. Too much.

      I think Ochefu will make someone very happy in the second round if he comes out.

      And also, DRed, or whoever posted it, what does this mean?

      46-38-44? Only if he’s 7’3.

      +1000

    87. That’s exactly my point. Phil should have known that and therefore realize that JR has value for Cleveland, and probably other teams as well. He was simply outsmarted.

      JR had zero value because since winning 6MOY he got wasted and played hangover level basketball in the 2013 playoffs, he was suspended for 5 games at the start of the 2013/14 season for testing positive for pot (suspensions only occurs after 3rd positive test), he had surgery on his patellar tendon which led to a horrible start to the year and a noticeable reduction in his athletic ability, he sucked all of this year in the Triangle and seemed unlikely to get it, he admitted he couldn’t concentrate and be a professional while playing in New York and he’s a league renowned headcase.

      You were never getting value for him.

    88. Yeah I certainly don’t remember anyone posting on here before the trade about JR’s trade value. It has certainly worked out for Cleveland so far, but I could just as easily imagine a scenario where he was shooting two many long 2s, playing crappy defense, getting death stares from Lebron and Blatt, and making instagram posts about how he doesn’t like Cleveland. Even as good as it has gone so far, can anybody really say they’re confident that he isn’t going to end up screwing the Cavs over when the stakes are highest? Everyone knows that focused, committed JR is a good player. Everyone also knows that he’s basically a walking time bomb. Not many teams are willing to take that kind of risk when the upside is just a role player. The Cavs were because the fringes of their rotation were a mess, and so far it has worked out great for them. But that doesn’t retroactively increase his trade value.

      To go even further, I’d bet that his trade value is still low today even after this good stretch. Even after the guy won 6MOY teams weren’t exactly queuing up for him.

    89. Rosen must have been fuming when the Bulls traded Oak for Cartwright just before Phil took over. Every Albany Patroon ghost writer knows that it’s virtually impossible to start a new administration with a huge butt-cheek deficit.

    90. Ha, I was going to mention Cartwright. That guy was a skeleton.

      I am completely confident that JR Pipe will fall to the occasion and bring a -.049 WP48 to the Cavs’ playoff games.

    91. I’d like to beat the Nets on Wednesday and then lose out. Total tank devastation, but with a nice little bit of payback first.

    92. And also, DRed, or whoever posted it, what does this mean?

      It’s a reference to the song “Baby Got Back.” In the lyrics, the singer is talking about how much he likes women with big butts, so he suggests that measurements like 36-24-36 would be good, but only if the woman is five foot three. So DRed mocked Charley Rosen’s comments about Jackson only wanting a center with a big butt by parodying the lyrics.

    93. For Cleveland, JR was the prize in the JR/Shump trade. Regardless of the reason, he’s playing big minutes and is a real part of Cleveland’s current success.
      I know it’s not cool to praise JR here, but just because you don’t like him, or because he didn’t play well for the knicks this season, doesn’t mean he sucks.
      JR is one of the most athletically talented guys in the NBA. It’s the coach’s/team’s responsibility to get the best out of him, or in exchange for him in a trade .The knicks failed at both.
      Also, if your team leader is demonstrating by example to pass to the open man vs playing hero ball, that will effect everyone on the team.

    94. He turned out to be the prize, but that was not the intent of the deal. He was the cost of getting Shumpert. Shumpert was their target. They pretty much came right out and said it at the time. They were looking to improve their defense. Smith was the cost of doing business. Luckily for them, Smith has played very well since they got him.

    95. Phil Jackson wanted no part of JR Smith for another year!

      Can anyone really blame him?

      The problem was that everyone else knew that. Everyone knows that JR is a headcase that could spontaneously combust or screw up team chemistry at any given moment (especially under intense pressure). He did it in Denver, China, and NY.

      To get someone to take him and that contract, Phil had to sweeten the deal. Shumpert hasn’t been developing offensively, but he still has a reputation as a defender. And given that he’s still young and the injuries may have stalled his development, people still think he can get better. Teams wanted him.

      So to get that JR cap space NEXT YEAR and move towards a new culture sooner, Phil gave up an under performing Shumpert that he may not have signed next year anyway.

      My argument with his thinking has been that IMO it was too short term.

      It was already 100% certain the Knicks aren’t going to be contenders next year. So why not suffer through 1 more year of JR and his antics and trade Shumpert separately for whatever you can get. Shumpert was still an asset. They gave away an asset for “free” to change the culture and get that space 1 year sooner when they might have gotten a decent pick or player they wanted.

      Cleveland’s rationale was simple. They got 2 players that filled gaps in their team, it immediately made them better, and they are hoping that Lebron can keep JR under control in Cleveland.

    96. The knicks have a history of overpaying contracts, destroying value, then selling cheap to other teams. Then, the players’ miraculously get better and more valuable. That’s fine if you have deep pockets and no cap restrictions, but no way to succeed with an NBA team in this era.

      To repeatedly defend, justify and excuse this organization for it’s ineptness escapes me. The knicks have made it to the second round of playoffs once in the last fifteen years. As fans, If we want this team to improve, we should hold Phil and Co. accountable, just as he holds players accountable. I’m not saying he should be fired, but he should hear fans’ ire. If you accept losing and make excuses, then you deserve the team you get.

    97. I know it’s not cool to praise JR here, but just because you don’t like him, or because he didn’t play well for the knicks this season, doesn’t mean he sucks.
      JR is one of the most athletically talented guys in the NBA. It’s the coach’s/team’s responsibility to get the best out of him, or in exchange for him in a trade .

      Oh please. JR doesn’t get praised here because he was an entitled piece of shit who couldn’t stay sober in the playoffs, got suspended for smoking reefer, got pissed the organization waived his equally piece of shit brother who they gave a partially guaranteed contract as a favor to JR after handing him a 3 yr, $17.5m extension right after he had imploded at the most critical juncture of the season.

      I don’t particularly care what JR’s doing in Cleveland, because we don’t have Lebron and Kyrie to limit his usage and because the guy was doing dumb shit like still going out all the time which HE ADMITTED HIMSELF. That’s why he had to go, because JR Smith on a bad team (which we most certainly are) is a distraction and a cancer waiting to happen.

      Good for him, he’s playing well, he’s actually acting like a professional and looks like he’s comfortable in his role, but the Knicks didn’t owe JR Smith a damn thing more than a plane ticket to Cleveland.

    98. Think about it. We used to argue more about the style of basketball the knicks played along with their on-court blunders and play calling.
      Now, the roster is so weak, nothing matters but rebuilding it. Until then, we don’t even know for sure whether Phil’s triangle can function in today’s NBA, or if Fisher got the goods to lead this team.

      Then, there’s the consideration of the triangle being too difficult for players to learn, or which players are learning it and which have to be traded because they’re not learning it. The more I think about it, this is a giant clusterfuck.

    99. Like I said I like JR. I actually met him a couple times back home in Jerz. Nice guy but he’s a nut. JR is a good fit there end of story. Shump sux and we have freed a tad more space. May have been short sighted but whatever.

    100. Think about it. We used to argue more about the style of basketball the knicks played along with their on-court blunders and play calling.
      Now, the roster is so weak, nothing matters but rebuilding it. Until then, we don’t even know for sure whether Phil’s triangle can function in today’s NBA, or if Fisher got the goods to lead this team.

      Then, there’s the consideration of the triangle being too difficult for players to learn, or which players are learning it and which have to be traded because they’re not learning it. The more I think about it, this is a giant clusterfuck.

      Yes because we had a middling roster and we blew it up. You can argue that Phil shouldn’t have maxed Melo, didn’t get enough in trades, was way off base with his expectations for this year’s roster, not installed the Triangle, etc. There is absolutely no way you can convince me tearing it down and tanking for a pick is less preferable to arguing about whether Woodson was stupid or willfully ignorant.

    101. Oh please. JR doesn’t get praised here because he was an entitled piece of shit who couldn’t stay sober in the playoffs, got suspended for smoking reefer, got pissed the organization waived his equally piece of shit brother who they gave a partially guaranteed contract as a favor to JR after handing him a 3 yr, $17.5m extension right after he had imploded at the most critical juncture of the season…..
      Good for him, he’s playing well, he’s actually acting like a professional and looks like he’s comfortable in his role, but the Knicks didn’t owe JR Smith a damn thing more than a plane ticket to Cleveland.

      Those are great message board sound bites but there’s a bigger picture. Unfortunately, a lot of athletes need baby sitters and leadership that can get the most out of them. That’s what’s happening in Cleveland. And also in Dallas with Tyson.
      And if you can’t get the most OUT of them, and want to get rid of them, fine. Then, good management get the most in exchange for them.
      Rant and curse all you want about what a jerk JR is, but knicks inept management got screwed on both trades.

    102. Yes because we had a middling roster and we blew it up. You can argue that Phil shouldn’t have maxed Melo, didn’t get enough in trades, was way off base with his expectations for this year’s roster, not installed the Triangle, etc. There is absolutely no way you can convince me tearing it down and tanking for a pick is less preferable to arguing about whether Woodson was stupid or willfully ignorant.

      The knicks could go 0-82, have no draft picks for three years and you’d find a way to defend them.

    103. I’d just like to point out that Stainbrook is a very unfortunate name for someone in a conversation about ass.

    104. Those are great message board sound bites but there’s a bigger picture. Unfortunately, a lot of athletes need baby sitters and leadership that can get the most out of them. That’s what’s happening in Cleveland. And also in Dallas with Tyson.
      And if you can’t get the most OUT of them, and want to get rid of them, fine. Then, good management get the most in exchange for them.
      Rant and curse all you want about what a jerk JR is, but knicks inept management got screwed on both trades.

      Tyson was pissed about various things last year. He’s an incredibly productive player and can stay sober consistently. Comparing him to JR is insulting.

      You couldn’t get anything for JR which is why Shump was attached too him. That was the price of moving JR. There was no getting maximum value for.

      Saying shit three times buy describing JR and lil Pipe as “pieces of shit” and describing things that JR does as “dumb shit” isn’t ranting, it’s using illustrative language to drive home a point.

      You did a great job of glossing over all the other incredibly stupid and selfish things JR did though so that’s cool.

      The knicks could go 0-82, have no draft picks for three years and you’d find a way to defend them.

      No the difference between me and you is that I’m okay with sucking and waiting until next summer at which point there will be nothing hamstringing Phil in whatever he chooses to do. Until that point I’m not going to judge him when none of the moves he’s made hurt us in the long-run.

    105. Looking at Okafor more in depth. Very frustrating. So efficient and focused on offense yet so casual and disinterested on defense.
      He’s not bad with his man defense in the post, but in space or on the break he’s completely clueless.
      I know he’s only 18, but the lack of awareness on that end is almost unforgivable, even though he could be a force in the post. He’s a bit like Brook Lopez in how his D completely negates his O. I just don’t know how much he can improve on that.

    106. To repeatedly defend, justify and excuse this organization for it’s ineptness escapes me. The knicks have made it to the second round of playoffs once in the last fifteen years. As fans, If we want this team to improve, we should hold Phil and Co. accountable, just as he holds players accountable. I’m not saying he should be fired, but he should hear fans’ ire. If you accept losing and make excuses, then you deserve the team you get.

      I agree with this.

      Like ptmillo wrote yesterday, it’s sad that the Garden crowd, who used to boo if the Knicks went on a 5 minute scoring drought or allowed two uncontested layups in a row, now just sits there silently in their $1000 seats. Yay, MSG is now the Staples Center, where people go for expensive beer and to maybe see a celebrity.

      I’m all for giving Phil and Phish time to straighten the ship, but it also worries me that the worst Knick team ever doesn’t garner the passion of the crowd to even muster a single “Fire Fisher” chant. (Maybe they do– unlike some of y’all, I don’t waste time watching this team play “basketball”. But from what I read here, there doesn’t seem to be much hostility at the Garden these days. If I’m wrong, tell me otherwise!)

      I believe Phil did the wrong thing several times over, but ultimately did the right thing by cashing in early for ping pong balls. Still, it’s a move that should come with a price, and it’s the passionate fans that should provide the checks and balances. 60 losses is both acceptable and unacceptable at the same time. If Phil can fake a little “we thought we could make the playoffs this year”, the fans should be able to muster a little righteous indignation.

    107. I’m all for giving Phil and Phish time to straighten the ship, but it also worries me that the worst Knick team ever doesn’t garner the passion of the crowd to even muster a single “Fire Fisher” chant… I believe Phil did the wrong thing several times over, but ultimately did the right thing by cashing in early for ping pong balls. Still, it’s a move that should come with a price, and it’s the passionate fans that should provide the checks and balances. 60 losses is both acceptable and unacceptable at the same time. If Phil can fake a little “we thought we could make the playoffs this year”, the fans should be able to muster a little righteous indignation.

      Why would we chant “Fire Fisher!”? This isn’t his fault. LOOK AT THIS ROSTER. And despite the very impressive straw man Captain Luke and Hoolahoop have constructed, NO ONE ANYWHERE thinks Phil has done a “good” job so far. Like you said, we just think judgment should be reserved at least until next year.

      But what you wrote is exactly the reason why people say you can’t rebuild in NY. The educated fans aren’t booing because they understand the bigger picture here, which is that we are theoretically set up for better things starting this summer. Yes — Phil undervalued Tyson and overvalued Calderon – that trade has (so far) been his biggest blunder. I don’t really see much in the way of blunders otherwise to be honest, other than saying that we might make the playoffs this year, which really is a “who cares” sort of thing.

      Re: JR – he basically made the choice that pairing Shump with JR was worth keeping the 2+MM per year of cap space over the next 3 seasons that we would have lost if we had stretch/waived him.

      Shump was worth an end of 1st round pick last year. This year he’s a rental with a big cap hold – a defensive specialist who can’t shoot or finish a layup. To think you’d get more than a 2nd round pick for him is not realistic.

    108. NO ONE ANYWHERE thinks Phil has done a “good” job so far.

      Someone (I forget who) just gave him a B- here yesterday.

    109. Someone (I forget who) just gave him a B- here yesterday.

      Thats not a good grade in my household. Just sayin.

    110. But what you wrote is exactly the reason why people say you can’t rebuild in NY. The educated fans aren’t booing because they understand the bigger picture

      I get that. But the “educated” fans are smart enough to not waste their time going to MSG to watch the Knicks play basketball. I’m talking about the fans that are in the building, who rightfully shouldn’t accept paying money to see the worst Knicks team the ever. (Do they chant “Ping Pong Balls! Ping Pong Balls!” or anything at all? Or are tickets just too darn expensive for chapters to even go to games anymore?)

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