Knicks Draft 2015 Round Table: Part 6

The KnickerBlogger staff has decided to spend the 8 days prior to the draft discussing the upcoming event. Each day will feature a different question that we will attempt to answer. Feel free to join us in the comment section!

As the Knicks GM, would you trade down to the 7th pick in this draft?

Kurylo: If Okafor is still around at 4, I wouldn’t. If he’s not, and I can grab Turner with #7 I’m down. Yes if whoever was taken fourth becomes a star, I’d be hard pressed to live it down. However I’m really high on Turner and this team needs more picks.

Silverman: No. You’re not going to get anything of value by dropping three slots or so (think Mayo for Love back in 2008). Just take the guy that tickles Phil’s (not) Zen fancy and go sign a bucketful of smart, two-way players in free agency. It’s not that complicated, really.

Gibberman: Yes, yes and yes again. I’ve been screaming for this since almost immediately after the lottery. As long as the Knicks come away with one of Okafor, Russell, Mudiay, Winslow, WCS or Hezonja I’ll be happy. If they can do that plus acquire Ty Lawson or Danillo Gallinari I’d be ecstatic. If they can do that plus get the right’s to the future Blazers or Grizzlies’ pick Denver owns that’s a step down from ecstatic. 7th would be my cut off of where I’m willing to trade down too.

Fisher-Cohen: Obviously depends on the offer, but no way am I doing it just to get out of Calderon’s deal nor to pick up any non superstar player older than 26 or so. The Knicks are years away. Calderon’s deal will expire and Lawson will be in decline before the Knicks make the conference finals. But purely from a talent standpoint, there seems to be a lot of good gambles in the mid-late lottery, making it more sensible this year than most to trade down.

Topaz: It’s certainly tempting. This team isn’t one piece away — they have virtually no players of value under contract, and will need young, cheap rotation players. The return would have to be a future first and/or a talented young player in addition to the 7th pick, but I don’t really think that trade will be out there.

Cronin: It would depend on who is there at #4, #7 and what Denver is offering with the #7 for #4. I’m not doing it for, like Wilson Chandler and the #4. And Denver likely isn’t doing it for next year’s #1 pick, so I don’t really know what they have to offer. If Cauley-Stein is still there at #7 and the Big Three are all off the board and Denver is giving something fancy along with the #7, I’d do it. That’s a whole lot of ifs, though.

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Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

87 thoughts to “Knicks Draft 2015 Round Table: Part 6”

  1. Assume that Towns, Okafor and Russell are gone. What’s left?

    Mudiay, WCS, Zinger, Winslow, just to start. If we can move down to 7, we get a stud. I get uncomfortable any later.

  2. ”It was awful in Seattle,” [Kendall] Gill said. ”George is the only person in the world that I have a serious dislike for.”

    Has Karl ever gotten along with anyone? He makes D’Antoni look like Mr. Popularity.

  3. You’re not going to get anything of value by dropping three slots or so (think Mayo for Love back in 2008).

    Bob, actually Love was the 5th pick, so…

    Anyway, the trading down appeal is entirely on what else is on the table. #4 for #7 + Faried? Thanks but no thanks. #4 and Calderon for #7 + one between Faried and Gallinari? Well, now we’re talking. So I agree with Gibberman.

    I would stay the fuck away from the Suns trade, though. #13 is too low and I don’t see how Bledsoe fits here.

  4. Has Karl ever gotten along with anyone? He makes D’Antoni look like Mr. Popularity.

    The Kings are quickly becoming the most nuts franchise in NBA. They fire the only guy who could get along with Cousins, and then hire the guy most likely to get on the nerves of Boogie, all the while firing and hiring guys in the front office without telling anyone what’s the real deal? Wow, Vivek must really be a crazy guy.

    By the way, I wouldn’t discard the possibility that Sauce Castillo can be a useful player in the Triangle, and he’s kinda cheap at 2.39 mln.

  5. Not goink. But I could walk over to Barclays and heckle people on the way in if you have any requests.

  6. Reposted from the previous thread:

    I agree, the situation in Sacramento is mindboggling. I half expect a trade like Cousins and Stauskas for Rondo and Nowitzki, which would be great for the Mavericks, and make George Karl happy; but the Mavericks will probably never trade Nowitski, especially given his relatively reasonable salary. But something like this trade with another team looks like what Sacramento wants.

    I’d love to take advantage of the situation in Sacramento to get Cousins, but I can’t think of a reasonable trade that Sacramento would accept since Sacramento apparently want experienced bodies, not a high draft pick.

  7. I’d take Boogie and a second rounder for our fourth pick, but no way Sacramento does that.

  8. I’d love to take advantage of the situation in Sacramento to get Cousins, but I can’t think of a reasonable trade that Sacramento would accept since Sacramento apparently want experienced bodies, not a high draft pick.

    But if they get rid of Boogie an have the 4 and the 6 then they can rebuild correctly

  9. Karl (at least allegedly) doesn’t want to do a full rebuild with kids. So who knows what the fuck they’re thinking.

  10. I can imagine Karl doesn’t want to do a full rebuild with kids, he wants to rebuild his reputation by winning games. Maybe we could trade for Lawson and send him to the Kings for Boogie.

  11. My two cents… the trade for Lawson makes absolutely no sense. Stay away, stay far away. Nothing to do with the player, but why would you make a trade that gives up assets (a drop in picks) to get player, when you have cap space and could theoretically sign a similar player without giving up assets? See what I’m saying? That being said, if we could swing a 4 for a 6 and 7, i am totally on board with that. Somebody make that happen.

  12. DRed — feel free to heckle me on the way in. I’ll probably be carrying a “Zinger or bust” sign.

  13. We are as close to a blank slate as we have been, or are going to be, for a long time (sans MMM). Now is the time to build the right way, with players, culture, and coaching starting fresh, with a mind to fortheloveofgod NOT give away our future chances for success by trading for now, or the next couple years, at the expense of the future.

    So, no trading down please, unless it is for two picks in the top-7. I don’t know whether Mudiay, WCS, Winslow et al will be the all-stars different people think they will be, and no one else knows either. It’s a crapshoot, but your chances are much higher at the top. But your chances of success are far, far shittier if you go the route of Kaminsky and Bledsoe, or headcases like Boogie, etc.

    When we look back in 5 years, will we say we fucked this up as usual? Let’s get top talent first, then work from there.

  14. Man, if we convert #4 into WinslowOrMudiay/WCS, that would be great.

    Not into Zinger. Too frail and weak defensively.

  15. Even if we do this right, WB, we’ll probably still say we fucked up.

    ….and I still say we’re gonna land Porzingis.

  16. Draft night may signal whether Phil’s intent is to try a quick rebuild while Melo is here, or is committed to patience. Many of us have long assumed that his end game was to quickly build with Melo and try to win the East quickly in his 5 years. However, maybe his end game is different, now? Maybe last year sobered that expectation?

    The recent interview where he talked about Steve Mills being the future and all might suggest that he is now just trying to build a strong foundation to pass on. Maybe that wasn’t his intention a year ago, but perhaps this previous season has changed his ultimate goal for the Knicks?

    Assuming that the top 3 guys go as expected, if PJ still wants to try to win quickly, he’ll probably take WCS. He’s older than Mudiay, Porzingis, etc. WCS probably can be a top defender right out of the box. Phil can then sign Monroe and a good 2-way wing (Green? Carroll?) and compete right away in a weak East, at least to make the playoffs if not get very far in. Then try to make a big splash with a 2016 free agent to become serious East contenders.

    However, if he takes Porzingis or Mudiay and does not trade them soon after, then maybe he is just looking to build a strong foundation to leave behind him? His recent comments, inc. the one about no matter who the Knicks take that it’ll be a good, young player might be prepping the fan base for Porzingis/Mudiay. He still might want Monroe b/c he’s young, but interior D will be awful.

    A trade down for future picks might also signal a longer, proper rebuild. A week ago I thought no way that the Knicks would take Porzingis. Now, he might be the odds-on favorite (if the Sixers don’t snag him at #3). Mudiay still lurks…everyone’s been so quiet about him…no buzz at all.

  17. Melo for the #2
    – Melo waves his no trade for LA
    – Knicks rebuild with #2 and #4 plus lots of dough.
    – LA gets their seat filler for next 5 Years
    WIN, WIN,WIN

  18. I think people are sleeping on Mudiay because there is so little out there on him. He looks like he would be, at least, a good defender, with athleticism, penetration, and superb passing ability.

  19. IMO, there’s no way Phil is going to bring in anyone with maturity issues like Cousins as part this rebuild. It’s just not going to happen. MAYBE after the team is built and he feels they are one player away from being a contender (a couple of years from now) he might bring in someone in like that, but not before. No way he’s trading for Cousins unless he’s being gifted to us.

    This whole process is not just about getting better players. It’s about changing everything we’ve been doing since CAA and Dolan ripped apart the early Walsh and D’Antoni rebuild and we started bringing in players like JR Smith, Kenyon Martin, etc…

    That’s why he was so anxious to get rid of players like Felton, JR Smith, and maybe even to a lesser extent Shumpert.

    George Karl (and Mike D’Antoni) are exactly the same in that regard. They don’t want any immaturity or off the court issues distracting from what they are trying to accomplish and they have no patience for it. You are either 100% dedicated and easy to coach or you are out.

  20. Here we go with the DeMarcus Cousins maturity issues propaganda again. What has DeMarcus Cousins done since he’s been a professional to earn that label?

  21. @JayBilas: Since Yao Ming was drafted No. 1 in 2002, 19 international players were Lottery Picks, none were ever All-Stars. H/T ESPN Stats and Info.

    Interesting tweet for those of you who support the Zinger.

  22. DeMarcus Cousins has had multiple suspensions, was sent home from the team by his coach, punched another player, confronted Sean Elliott for comments made as a TV commenter, lead the league in technical fouls.

    He also donated $1 million of his first contract extension to Sacramento charities, so he’s not some misanthrope but he’s definitely had issues in his career.

  23. @JayBilas: Since Yao Ming was drafted No. 1 in 2002, 19 international players were Lottery Picks, none were ever All-Stars.

    Drafting is kind of like playing roulette. Just because Red has come up 19 times is a row, the odds don’t change on the 20th spin.

    That 19 player streak is going to end at some point. And when it does, a euro will be an all star and no one will put any stock in it ever again.

    (Besides, is the implication that International players have gotten worse since 2002? Because it’s more likely an issue of scouting and skill valuing than actual lottery talent).

  24. slightly OT,

    but yall see that zinger measured out at 7’1.25′ *flat footed* without shoes????? That’s about 7 ft 2 (if not 3) with kicks. Maybe I’m a bit crazed from talking myself in and out of every prospect in the 3-8 range ad nauseum, but that cements zinger as my 1st preference should D’angelo not be available.

  25. All fair points. It just bothers me when people condemn the man as if he’s a criminal when he doesn’t get into trouble off the court for anything. He has problems with his temper for sure, though, and it shows up in his play. I’d rather have a guy who cares than the opposite, though.

  26. I would take Farried and the 7 for the 4. He’s got $$ coming after this year; maybe Denver doesn’t want to pay it? I can’t get the salaries to line up on the trade machine, and I don’t see them taking Calderon. We would absolutely love this guy, he plays hard, rebounds for a 3 and plays D. If you draft WCS and play Melo between them, you are in very good shape.

    Prob is, I think Denver wants Lawson gone so they can take a PG to replace him, and I just don’t see us taking him.

  27. Is it Thursday yet? This is making me insane (didn’t have far to go).

    My gut feeling is that we’re going to take the best defensive big that’s available. Great defense is the easiest way to make up ground on other teams.

  28. @Massive, but a ton of later picks have been steals – Marc Gasol, Pekovic, Omer Asik, Gortat, Ilyasova, Dragic all were second round picks.

    There hasn’t been a true international lotto pick (i.e. a guy who didn’t play in the NCAA) for a while, either. Besides the 2014 draft, which featured Exum and Saric and is too recent to judge, the last time a non NCAA international player was picked in the lotto was 2011 when Valanciunas, Vesely and Biyombo were picked 5-7. But that was a pretty shitty draft. American lotto picks included Jimmer, Derrick Williams and Alec Burks.

    The closest thing we have since then is Antetokounpo, who was obviously a big time steal at 15th overall.

    There’s value abroad. NBA teams have just had a hard time evaluating it in the past.

  29. Afflalo opted out of an 8 million dollar payday next year. So, it’s probably not “do you want Aaron Afflalo on your team” but do you want him on your team making, say 33 million over 3 seasons.

  30. Those nineteen international players amount to about 1.3 international lottery picks per year. That’s roughly one tenth of the fourteen lottery picks each year. Your chances of getting an all star with a random lottery pick are probably roughly one in ten, so it’s easy to imagine that international players have been drafted where they should be, that is, not busts on average; and we still haven’t had an international all star since YaoMing.

  31. Also, guys like Gallo and JV aren’t all-stars, but really good players. I would guess that there are PLENTY of busts from the domestic ranks. Joe Alexander, anyone?

  32. Anthony Bennett, Jonny Flynn and Michael Beasley don’t speak well of NCAA lottery picks. Neither do Ed Davis, Jimmer Fredette, or, dare I say, Cole Aldrich.

  33. Ugh Sporting News says Knicks are strongly considering Kaminsky at #4. Has to be hogwash, right?

  34. or, dare I say, Cole Aldrich.

    Filthy lies.

    Beasley is a guy who pretty much everyone from stats nerds to scouts thought was going to be at least a good pro. And he’s been terrible.

  35. I’m excited for Thursday. There are so many possible ways this draft can go that would excite me. So I can’t wait for the Knicks to find the one way that would infuriate all of us and pull it off.

    FWIW, assuming neither Russell nor Okafor drop, I’m on Team WCS. I can’t see us ever being mad that we have him on our team.

    I like Winslow, as well, and I think the Croatian guard will be solid (although I doubt we’d draft him). I’d be cool trading down to 7 if we got future picks out of the deal, but I doubt we could get anything valuable enough to make it worth it.

    It’s going to be really hard to fuck this up, but I’m confident Phil can do it. And every time he speaks in public recently, that confidence grows. Really, Phil? You want to use LeBron as your example of a player who is ruining the beautiful game? Maybe just adjust those bifocals and take a look a little closer to home, there’s a maxed out superstar on your roster that would make for an ideal example!

    I still think if we call the Lakers and offer Melo for the number 2, they’d be stupid enough to take it. Unfortunately, I think we’re too stupid to make the offer. Sigh :/

  36. Interesting bit from Pelton re: the Zinger:

    “So let’s pretend that instead of signing with Sevilla last summer, Porzingis had shortened his name to Kris and turned up at Duke as an incoming freshman. Based on the translations of ACB and NCAA stats to their NBA equivalents, I estimate Porzingis would have averaged 16.5 points, 8.1 rebounds and 1.9 blocks in Jahlil Okafor’s 30 minutes per game — similar to Okafor’s actual averages of 17.3 points, 8.5 rebounds and an identical 1.9 blocks per game.”

  37. Beasley is a guy who pretty much everyone from stats nerds to scouts thought was going to be at least a good pro. And he’s been terrible.

    I wonder if there was already a record that suggested he might have off the court behavioral and other issues. I know it didn’t take long after he was drafted to find out, but my guess is “someone” already knew.

  38. Anyone here going to the draft on Thursday night?

    I went to the draft the year Westbrook (and then Love) went ahead of us and we took Gallo.

    Then I went the year that Curry fell to one spot in front of us and we ended up with Jordan Hill.

    The last time I went to a draft I watched Kawhi Leonard slip all the way down to two picks in front of us when we ended up with Shumpert.

    I hate going to the NBA draft.

    And yes, I’ll be there Thursday.

  39. @hubertdamus — maybe you should stop going so that our dudes stop getting picked 1 ahead.

    Re: Beasley — iirc, people knew his off court red flags all along, that was pretty much his only weakness going into the draft. At least I def remember that being discussed back when it was the Beasley v. Mayo debate.

  40. In fact… Calling all knickerbloggers in the tristate area…. We gotta find and kidnap Hubert. Then maybe the karma realigns and KAT magically falls to 4. Or LA calls to take Melo for 2.

  41. In fact…. This would never happen but for shiggles, would anyone be opposed to Melo for Kobe + 2? Feel like a decrepit Kobe would still light a fire under the young guys we draft. Not that it would happen.

  42. Phil Jackson speaks about almost everything conditionally. Most people read too much into his statements and take them for actual plans.

    When Phil says he’s strongly considering Lyles or Kaminsky with the 4th pick, he means he’s putting his due diligence into evaluating them. When Phil says he’d consider Melo at the 4 depending on the center, he’s not giving any new information. Almost any real world event is consistent with that statement.

  43. Ok, for shits n’ giggles:

    We trade ‘Melo for 2.
    Draft Porzingis.
    4 – We draft WCS.
    FA – We sign Monroe.

    My God, what a huge friggin front court.

  44. I’ve performed a highly scientific analysis of the probable top 5 picks in the draft. The first name listed after the draftee is what he’ll turn out to be if the Knicks somehow draft him, the second name is what he’ll become if the Knicks don’t.

    Towns- Eddy Curry, Shaquille O’Neal
    Okafor – Hasheem Thabeet, Hakeem Olajuwon
    Russell – Jonny Flynn, Chris Paul
    Mudiay – Dion Waiters, Russell Westbrook
    Porzingis – Andre Bargnani, Dirk Nowitzki

    Sound reasonable?

  45. I’m very nervous that we’ll end up with the only lemon out of the top 7. I think every player taken in the top 7 will be a good basketball player, and I think this is the best draft class we’ve seen in a while and may end up being what the 96 and 03 drafts were for their decades. But I really think can’t escape the nerves that we’ll somehow get this one wrong and draft Kaminsky or Trey Lyles. My personal BPA top 7 looks like this:

    Towns (Dwight Howard if Dwight Howard had a single post move and could shoot free throws)
    Okafor (he’s a higher usage Pau Gasol, which is a great 5 but a HOF 4. That’s why he needs to be a Knick and play next to Cole Aldrich)
    Russell (taller, more athletic Steph Curry but a notch below Steph as a shooter)
    Mudiay (the focused non-head-case version of Stephon Marbury)
    Porzingis (the next in line in the Nowitzki/Gasol euro big line)
    Winslow (Jimmy Butler numbers and game without needing 39 minutes a night to do it)
    Cauley-Stein (Tyson Chandler if he could shoot a 15 footer)

    I’d be happy with all of these guys on my team, and I think they’re all good bets to meet their potential as long as they don’t go to Sacramento because Sacramento is not an organization that can develop talent. I just want us to get the best player available when we pick, and I hope we figure that out.

  46. @55, Towns is already a better vastly better free throw shooter than Shaq ever was, but he doesn’t have Shaq’s arsenal of post moves. I like my “complete Dwight Howard” analysis a little better.

  47. Towns- Eddy Curry, Shaquille O’Neal
    Okafor – Hasheem Thabeet, Hakeem Olajuwon
    Russell – Jonny Flynn, Chris Paul
    Mudiay – Dion Waiters, Russell Westbrook
    Porzingis – Andre Bargnani, Dirk Nowitzki

    Switch Curry n’ Thabeet, switch Russell n’ Mudiay and we’re more like it. :P

  48. Shaq? We talking about Shaq? Shaq was 2″ taller and 30/40 lbs heavier than KAT. KAT might wind up being better than Shaq, but he will never be Shaqlike because he’s not so freakishly huge.

    Slightly off topic, but I once was walking into a restaurant as Shaq was walking out, and is mind boggling how huge that man is. He doesn’t look real in person.

  49. I honestly don’t think we’ve ever had a “the next Shaq.” He was that unique. We’ve had “baby Shaqs” since, though.

  50. Towns is probably going to be very good but it’s kinda ridiculous to try to compare him with Shaq. Shaq is/was much much bigger and far more athletic. There hasn’t been a center who is so superior athletically to his peers since Wilt. Towns is tall and long and skilled but not near Shaq in terms of athleticism.

    Comparing Towns to Howard is a little more reasonable. Howard is more athletic in terms of bounciness but Towns is so much more skilled than Dwight on the offensive end. I think when it’s all said and done Towns will have a better career than Dwight if only because his brain seems to be put together better.

    I dunno – there’s tons of love for Towns but I have a hard time thinking he’s going to be much more than a rich man’s Al Horford. That’s a great great player but Shaq? No way.

  51. rich man’s Al Horford

    Hadn’t heard that one but I really like that comp for Towns. A really good all-around player who does a lot of everything, but doesn’t do enough of any one thing to necessarily get the recognition he deserves. That’s an awfully good place to start a really good team though.

  52. Oh? I thought “better Horford” has been Towns’ calling card for a while now. And yes, that’s one hell of a player.

  53. Hehehe, Chad Ford just did a “Grade A” mock draft, which is a draft where he selects who each team would pick if it were up to him (in other words, who would they need to draft to get an A from him) and shock of all shocks, he has Zinger #2 to the Lakers and Mudiay #3 to the Sixers. High-larious.

  54. Oh? I thought “better Horford” has been Towns’ calling card for a while now. And yes, that’s one hell of a player.

    Probably I repressed it along with so many of my other Towns-related hopes and dreams once the lottery balls didn’t fall our way.

  55. @69 – Chad Ford is the last person I pay any attention to.
    @68 – GMs lie all the time, not just before the draft – but it’s worse before the draft.
    @60 – A few years back I went to the McDonalds next to Yankee Stadium and got served by a young lady named Shaquilla. I’m sad to say that the resemblance to her namesake was remarkable
    @57 – Massive, I agree. Your top-7 and mine match. One of them better be a Knick on Friday!
    @47 – Hubert, Please stay home :)

  56. If Chad Ford says, “Team X is planning on drafting Player Y,” I believe him. I just don’t believe him when he says “Player Z is going to be great.”

  57. Hehehe, Chad Ford just did a “Grade A” mock draft, which is a draft where he selects who each team would pick if it were up to him (in other words, who would they need to draft to get an A from him) and shock of all shocks, he has Zinger #2 to the Lakers and Mudiay #3 to the Sixers. High-larious.

    Here’s to Kupchak and Hinkie getting straight A’s!

  58. I just put up a legend that I think the Knicks should take to heart – the Chicago Bears once drafted a Hall of Famer based solely on the sound of his last name. So who has the best basketball name out there? Not Winslow, as that could be a jinx. Russell shares a last name with an all-time NBA great, so I guess him.

    Yeah but Russell is a high usage low efficiency name. According to wages of names, Olajuwon has the highest names produced/48.

  59. Yeah, well the “grade A” mock is Chad Ford’s decision about who HE would pick if he were the GM.
    I’ll do my mock draft on Friday :)

  60. According to wages of names, Olajuwon has the highest names produced/48

    You forgot Mutombo

    Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo

    Hall of famer

  61. Jackson also wishes the NBA would hold the draft after free agency. “We’ve got these things backwards right now. Unfortunately, you’re doing something that’s supposed to complement a team and we spend all this time running into the draft, and then five days later you’re into free agency, which kind of confounds the whole process a little bit,” he said.

    Thank you!!!

    I had meant to ask knickerblogger: Is there any reason the NBA operates like this? I can understand in baseball where the majority of prospects won’t see the majors for some time. But in basketball, where 2nd round players are expected to at least see some playing time, you’re basically daring teams to draft for need.

  62. you’re doing something that’s supposed to complement a team and we spend all this time running into the draft

    Teams that win 60 games see the draft as a way to “complement” the team. Teams that lose 60 games need new players. Whether the draft comes June 25th or July 25th shouldn’t make any difference. The process is painfully easy: write the name of the best player in the draft on a piece of paper. Under that name, write the second best player. Then write the third, and, finally the fourth. When it comes time to draft, look at the list and select the name of the available player that is highest. Ta da!

  63. That’s the easy part. It’s the player evaluations vs. needs that most GMs can’t figure out.

  64. @83
    Hahaha. Simple enough right? But the reality is ALL teams, good or bad, draft for need AND try to get best player available. Its not an exact science, so if you have players that are closely rated, and you have good depth at one position, you will definitely draft the player that fits the need.

    On the one hand they’re trying to help sucky front offices by not allowing them to trade consecutive 1st rounders, but then they complicate the process by having the draft first. If it’s all about competitive balance then yes that’s a step that they should fix. As you mention, it doesn’t matter for the smart teams right? So why not have the process play out in a logical manner. Basically give the bad teams less chance of effing things up. Not to mention probably less pressure on these kids.

  65. Not all bad teams need everything. Actually there’s only 2 or 3 of those teams every year. The rest usually have something. Yes probably crappy stuff but, these are businessess you can’t just start from scratch every year.

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