ESPN.com: Knicks Trade for Derrick Rose

I know it’s been a while, but I guess we should have an official thread for this garbage trade.

From Marc Stein and Ian Begley (the trade was broken by Shams Charania):

The Knicks acquired Derrick Rose from the Bulls on Wednesday, hoping the former NBA MVP can be their answer at point guard.

New York traded center Robin Lopez, guard Jose Calderon and guard Jerian Grant to Chicago, which shipped guard Justin Holiday, Rose and a 2017 second-round pick back to the Knicks.

A source close to Rose said the Chicago native was very emotional about leaving his hometown team, which drafted him No. 1 overall out of Memphis in 2008, because of all his great memories there but that he wanted the big stage of New York.

Once Rose got word the Bulls were looking to trade him, he hoped it would be to the Knicks.

“His first choice was New York,” the source said. “He wants the spotlight.”

Bulls chairman Jerry Reinsdorf called the trade a “hard one” to make.

This is why we can’t have nice things.

Oh well, maybe Kevin Durant told the Knicks he’d sign with them, but they had to have a former MVP at the point and Nash, Magic and Iverson all refused to come out of retirement. Maybe. Probably not.

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272 thoughts to “ESPN.com: Knicks Trade for Derrick Rose”

  1. OK, rare time poster here, so bear with me. I, too, was very upset when i first saw this trade, but now that i have had time to let it sink in, i think i can make a case for it. We still have cap space this year, right? What if we sign someone like Horford?

    Zinger
    Horford
    Melo
    whoever
    Rose

    That’s not so bad. And, if it doesn’t work out with Rose year one, won’t we be able to go after Westbrook next year?

    Zinger
    Horford
    Melo
    whoever
    Westbrook

    That team is pretty good.

    So, yea, we gave up a good player on a good contract, but as long as we can get pass that viscerally, and we exchange Lopez for someone like Horford, it wouldbe an overall improvement. You can look at it as if we only signed Lopez to a one year deal.

  2. Not stoked about the trade, but not going to be taking the toaster into the bath with me. Upside is we moved a bit of salary and avoided losing draft picks. Willing to wait this one out to give it a verdict. Personally, would have been happy for us to avoid Rose, but hopefully he proves me wrong.

  3. To follow up, we need to see what Phil does with the front court now. I think in isolation it may look pretty meh, but I think we will probably be able to grade it better by the time we get to camp. Interesting times nevertheless.

  4. To follow up, this trade sucks and the more I think about it, it sucks more.
    Can’t wait to see Rose in his Knicks warm ups on the bench for 50 games next year- sweet!

  5. For me, this is the most crucial and, honestly, scariest part of this entire trade: WTF is Phil goink to do next?

    If he doesn’t do anything to disturb the 2017 cap space, GREAT!

    If he signs a player to a max contract that isn’t worthy of it (Dwight Howard), then this is a disaster.

  6. I can’t tell if I want Hassan Whiteside on this team or if I want to tank to a top 5 pick plus a Melo trade.

    Can I have both please?

  7. Ok screw it..I’m with reub on this one. And to a lesser extent, frank. Trying to be optimistic here. Obviously, no one but Rose thinks he’s gonna recapture his mvp form. But, as bad as he was last season, his second half was better than any PG on the roster. Hopefully that’s a trend and not a blip. That being said, I have no problem with having Rose on the roster- I just have a problem with how we got him. It’s very possible that, Conley at the max wasn’t going to push the team up higher than Rose because of the unknown with his Achilles. And it’s certainly possible that Phil looked at the roster and decided that he wasn’t going to be able to get Durant, so he would roll the dice on Rose and a last try to get Melo deep in the playoffs before his window shuts. And with that he probably thought that Melo would still have trade value as long as he stays healthy. Other than the sting of losing Lopez, it’s really not that big a risk. And I’ve gotta believe that Phil has his sights set on a big via trade or free agency. So..instead of continuing to flip out and curse Phil, I’m gonna take a wait and see mentality and trust Phil’s vision. For one more season. He’s earned that much with a 15 win improvement from 14-15.

  8. He’s earned that much with a 15 win improvement from 14-15.

    Even if you like Phil, that’s such a weak talking point.

    So, what, the 19 win decrease from 13-14 to 14-15 was nothing, can’t talk about that, but the 15 win increase from 14-15 to 15-16, that‘s what we should judge him by? Come on. Defend Phil all you like, but that’s not a talking point worth being used.

  9. If Kevin Durant would rather play alongside D Rose than R Westbrook at this point in his career, that says a lot about his b-ball IQ. I’d be shocked, but if that’s the way Durant wants to go down, he’ll take his seat best to Barkely, Stockton, Malone, and Miller as ringless HOFers.

  10. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

    On a positive note, we did not give any future picks, did not take any long term contracts and still haver our 2017 1st round pick.

    But sad to see how our only couple of assets went away.

  11. If Kevin Durant would rather play alongside D Rose than R Westbrook at this point in his career, that says a lot about his b-ball IQ. I’d be shocked, but if that’s the way Durant wants to go down, he’ll take his seat best to Barkely, Stockton, Malone, and Miller as ringless HOFers.

    Oh, me, too. I’m pretty darn sure that it isn’t going to be what happens. Just saying that that is the only way this even theoretically makes sense.

  12. Here’s how it theoretically makes sense-you realized that the Knicks aren’t ever going anywhere with Melo and you realize the only way you’re ever going to get this team out of his deathlike grasp is to be really terrible again and so you trade all your PGs for the worst PG in the NBA and also give up your starting center.

  13. Here’s how it theoretically makes sense-you realized that the Knicks aren’t ever going anywhere with Melo and you realize the only way you’re ever going to get this team out of his deathlike grasp is to be really terrible again and so you trade all your PGs for the worst PG in the NBA and also give up your starting center.

    But you don’t do that and acquire Derrick Rose, because Melo likes this trade!

  14. There is no reason to like this trade at all. None. The only redeeming quality about this trade is it refocuses our FA priorities and we can now avoid offering Conley and Rondo inflated contracts. The FA market says grab a big with all of Whiteside, Biyombo, Gasol, Noah, Howard, and Horford available to be signed. If we land Biyombo, we essentially upgraded on Lopez while getting four years younger at that position. The hard part about this trade is how do we upgrade on Calderon? Derrick Rose legitimately does not matter to me. He’s in a new environment and playing with a coach who favors a good point guard. Hornacek’s system should inflate his assist count and his TS to over .500 so I expect him to be better than he was in Chicago the last few seasons. The Rose trade also guarantees that we should have another $25M or so to throw around next off season considering that we should be going over the cap to keep Galloway and Thomas/D Will. Another thing is that grabbing D Rose, to me, removes the pressure of signing a max contract since we landed our big name before FA started.

    Again. Screw Derrick Rose. Give Biyombo $15M AAV and Bazemore $15M AAV and this team improves 10 games bare minimum assuming they stay healthy, Melo gives you the same and KP improves a good bit. Derrick Rose does nothing for me except make me excited for the killer crossovers and alley oops to D Will he’ll pull out in the garden. Oh, he’ll also guarantee that we play at a faster pace than the last two seasons since he can play in transition.

  15. The trade itself is bad, but what really makes it sting further is that since Rose is about a quarter of the athlete he once was, he basically torpedoes any kind of up-tempo offense Hornacek might want to run while simultaneously hurting Porzingis’ development since he won’t so much as sniff the ball when both Rose and Melo are on the court.

    Really, really, really awful move, no matter how you slice it. There are ways to free up cap space that don’t involve clearing out all your tradeable assets for a terrible player that hurts the growth and development of the coach and prospective franchise centerpiece

  16. This trade is rock-solid, smoking gun evidence of Phil Jackson’s rank incompetence as a general manager. It’s one of those trades we’ve seen so many times, where most fans who are looking at it objectively know within 1 second of glancing at the particulars that it is a doomed, horrible trade.

    Derrick Rose has been injured and/or ineffective for each of the last four NBA seasons. He was one of the worst regulars in the NBA last season by just about every metric. The Knicks have managed to pull off the impossible, as their point guard situation is actually WORSE than it was before the trade, and as an added bonus they have now created a hole at the center position by trading away possibly their most productive starter from last season, and probably the best contract value on the roster.

    It’s a trade that does not make sense for the short term or for the long term. Phil Jackson simply does not get it, and is not a quality NBA GM. This move pretty much cements his tenure here as a failure. I would say that I hope he doesn’t make any more horrendous moves before he is shown the door, but really, you know, at this point it just doesn’t matter any more.

    The Knicks are never gonna win shit. When you’re one of the worst franchises in the league, you tend to lose a lot. And that’s just the way it is, now and forever.

  17. On my drive home I’m listening to both talk-show jerks and they LOVE the trade. All that tells me is that they are totally clueless about basketball. Listening to Kay and Francesa was like listening to fingernails on a chalkboard.

    I ask two questions:

    1) Is there ANY way the Knicks win the championship this year?
    Answer: No

    2) How long will Rose be a Knick?
    Answer: 1 year. Then he returns to his hometown Chicago.

    There isn’t anyone on this board that wants to win now more than me (maybe you’re equal). I just don’t get it. I just don’t.

  18. JK, I agree with all you said except there are a lot of idiots who think this is a good trade

  19. I’m back to rooting for the team to lose again so Phil gets shitcanned faster. Rooting for the Knicks to lose is actually satisfying because they are quite good at it.

    #AccidentalTank2017

  20. I just read this in “Vertical Breakdown” onYahoo
    In two separate paragraphs Bobby Marks says:

    Although Rose has missed parts of the past four seasons with various injuries, when healthy he is still a top-15 point guard.

    Then…

    Since tearing his ACL in a playoff game in 2012, Rose has been a shell of his former self.

    So which is it?

  21. Even if you like Phil, that’s such a weak talking point.

    So, what, the 19 win decrease from 13-14 to 14-15 was nothing, can’t talk about that, but the 15 win increase from 14-15 to 15-16, that‘s what we should judge him by? Come on. Defend Phil all you like, but that’s not a talking point worth being used.

    Hey lol…I said I was “trying” to be optimistic

  22. Is d.rose really that bad? I remember someone from this blog told me that the best way to get a pg is through a trade. I think a one year rental is better than a sign and trade for the max teaque. The good thing is we still have a cap space and we didn’t trade any future picks. The only value that we lost is grant which really not impressive. Let’s be optimistic with this trade,p. Just maybe, this is the second coming of grant hill not the injured grant hill

  23. You can’t really be a Knick fan in a conventional way. You kind of just have to embrace the absurdity and take a gallows humor approach to all the dumbfuckery.

    As a basketball move, this trade is ridiculous. As performance art, you have to kind of admire it.

  24. Almost all people I know that is not from NY thinks that it is a win for the knicks

    You know some pretty stupid people.

  25. Care to make a prediction, reub?

    Derrick Rose, TS% and WS48 for the upcoming season.

    I say he’ll be under .500 and .030 respectively. What’s your guess?

  26. Why throw Grant in? I get punting on next season, I get opening cap space in ’17. JFC

  27. Gasol would leave Bulls and join Knicks… then maybe Batum at SG.. who else is out there? JR who opted out ?

  28. You guys are going to be soooo embarrassed.

    Says re “he who can’t be embarrassed” ub.

  29. Baze and Bizzy B. Bring those two to MSG and you have a good starting line up. Then when Galloway outplays Rose we’ll have a great starting line up.

  30. I don’t think you ever make a deal that can only be acceptable based on theoretical contingency.
    And that’s the rosiest way to look at this.

    Lopez will be a really good value for the Bulls the next few years. Fuck. And Grant might be better than Rose right now. Fuck.

  31. Silver linings:

    Grant for Holliday seems to be a wash looking at their stats. Grant’s younger, Holiday gives you more defense, idk. It’s pretty unlikely either will ever be useful players.

    Trade opens up a huge amount of cap space next year.

    If we suck, like really suck, we’ll get a top pick and hopefully melo demands a trade and then we could restart with KP, a top pick, and cap space.

    I don’t know what’s going on though. Makes no sense.

  32. The worst part of this trade is basically unfathomable. It’s not that you give up Lopez, a great asset when cost is included, it’s that you are forced to play perhaps the worst point guard in the NBA for 30+ minutes a game.

  33. I’m here in Chicago and in my highly scientific survey of 5 “fans”, all 5 think that the Knicks won this trade big time. smdh

  34. As far as I’m concerned, if we sign Biyombo, Horford, or Whiteside then the Knicks were right to trade Robin Lopez. Grant sucks and is going to suck his entire career. I really hate that we traded Calderon because he was going to be an excellent off guard in a Hornacek 2PG offense (the same way Billups and Kidd were excellent off guards in a two PG offense except Calderon is a better offensive player right now than both of those two were at that point). It is going to be hard getting a better guard than Calderon.

    Again. Sign Baze and Bizzy B for market value contracts and you’ve just upgraded your team. Rose’s expiring contract + Biyombo is better than Lopez and Conley. We just have to grab up Kent Bazemore

  35. Honestly, if the SS post-ACL wasn’t so extensive, I’d at least get the idea of taking a one-year flyer.

    But he’s had three years to show life and he hasn’t. The odds of him retiring after the season seem pretty high once he realizes there is virtually no FA interest.

    This isn’t like Iverson coming to Denver from Philly, who was once probably the best Rose comp, and has his most efficient seasons in Denver w/Melo.

  36. I love the prospect of signing those guys, massive, but I would be shocked if there was anything close to a guarantee of them signing in NY.

    I mean, maybe Phil is playing some 3D chess, and he’s hit before….

  37. Wow, when a trade unites Ruru and Jowles in loudly declaring its awfulness… well, it ain’t good.

  38. I just visited some CHI blogs and watched a number of Chicago based videos. There’s an almost 100% unanimous wail coming from Chi-town calling this a grand-slam, home run for the Knicks. We can all take solace that both Knick and Bull fans HATE this trade.

  39. I didn’t like Tony Wroten’s game but I would have taken him over Rose. FT% and TOs are the only thing Rose does better but that shouldn’t cost $20m extra.

  40. LOL PHIL

    hyahcahayhahyahchayhycahchaychyahhcyachacyahyahcshdhfhkhaf

    this garbage

  41. I want to remind everyone that he had one dunk last season — the whole season — after thirty-some during his MVP year.

    He is really bad at basketball and the Knicks just traded maybe the only actual value on the roster for him. This may be the worst team in the league next year. I am so pumped.

    Where does this stand in the pantheon of bad Knicks trades?

    1) Eddy Curry
    2) Andrea Bargnani
    3) Derrick Rose
    4) Carmelo Anthony
    5) Steve Francis

    ???

  42. As far as I’m concerned, if we sign Biyombo, Horford, or Whiteside then the Knicks were right to trade Robin Lopez.

    Sure, fine, trade Robin Lopez. But don’t trade him for a giant sack of nothing. The Knicks could have certainly gotten more in return for Robin Lopez than the final year of Derrick Rose’s terrible contract. Repeatedly giving away something for nothing is the exact reason why the Knicks perennially suck.

  43. In all seriousness though, I hope we are getting 2nd half of last season Rose with enough of a J to keep defenses honest so they won’t clog the lane for Melo & KP. If Rose turns into a Derek Harper (Knicks career) I’d be happy with that. He’s gotta commit to defense though and knock down open shots

  44. There is no pair of Rose-colored spectacles on this planet which could make this trade look good. Not as bad as Curry but much worse than Bargs. Bargs cost us a #9 pick but look what just happened:
    > We dumped a center on a value contract who was playing like a top 10 at his position in the second half of the season once he acclimated to a greater role on offense and shook off a nagging injury.
    > We dumped a 24yo rookie who played well when he was given regular minutes at the end of the season. It’s fair to say the coaching and system adversely impacted his performance last season.
    > We waived Wroten and then signed Wroten for 21m. Like Wroten, Rose is a terrible defender. Like Wroten, Rose is a terrible outside shooter (maybe detached retina might improve his shooting?). His forte is attacking the rim and finishing but what are the odds he’s anywhere near the Rose of old now having two bad knees? Even if he regains some of that, he’ll be at best an average guard because of his other deficiencies.

    This trade argues for GMs as well as players being required to take physicals. Only some form of dementia could explain this. What a gut punch. Grant/Gallo/Melo/KP/Lopez/Lance are 6 two-way players (if Melo decides to play D) and no knuckleheads in the group. We rated to be much better given a better coach, better system, and the expected improvement of some of those players. Remember during that losing streak we lost a lot of close games due to coaching and rotations. And what about KP’s timetable? Grant is gone and Lopez may have garnered a young player at some stage. Just a terrible deal.

  45. I was a Phil fan up until this point, but he completely lost me with this trade. How do you trade a great value contract like Lopez and all you get is a broken down point guard, who is a shell of his former self. This will rank as one of the worst Knick deals ever. Phil can you please leave now.

  46. There isn’t a guarantee. It’s a possibility and that’s why I haven’t given this trade a grade yet. If Phil uses this free agency period to both upgrade two starting positions and punt on signing a point guard until at least 2017, then this all makes sense. Rose and Bazemore with Melo, Porzingis, and Biyombo would be a very fun team to watch. Even if Rose sucks (and he absolutely does), that team is going to run and compete on defense. Sign some guys like Teletovic, Troy Daniels, and Solomon Hill to add to Rose, Galloway, Bazemore, Melo, D Will, Porzingis, O’Quinn, Biyombo, and Hernangomez and you have a really good team with a 1st round draft pick, some youth, and cap space the following summer.

    But if the Knicks fuck around and sign Dwight Howard, Eric Gordon, and Jamal Crawford then this trade sucks and Phil should be fired.

  47. The Bulls were 0.6 better offensively without Rose on the floor, and 4.0 points better defensively with him off the floor. His primary backup was Aaron Brooks.

    When your team breathes a sigh of relief when you leave the game and Aaron Brooks comes in, you suck.

  48. The trade sucked. Okay. We get that. Just because Ric Bucher and a bunch of guys who comment on ESPN.com don’t get it doesn’t mean we have to lambast the idea. My point is that this one shitty trade does not:

    A) Harm the Knicks after this season unless you think Jerry Grant is going to be a player in this league.
    B) Stop the Knicks from adding good players this summer.
    C) Set the Knicks back because we gave up draft picks.

    As shitty a deal this is for New York, we still have the same flexibility we had 24 hours ago if not more because we can theoretically sign $30M worth of expiring deals and have $60-70M in cap space next year. We still have Porzingis, we still have cap space, and we still have all of our first round picks. So I’m not trippin over this one. Go Derrick Rose.

  49. Sorry dude, but trading anything at all for Bargnani makes absolutely no sense. The Knicks traded for Andrea Bargnani and gave something up for him. That something happened to be a lot of something. I might consider that trade worse than the Curry trade because Andrea Bargnani is probably the very worst player of the modern era, when on-court time is factored. Anthony Bennett hasn’t gotten a chance to ruin a franchise like Bargnani did.

    This trade is the worst trade I can think of since the Bargnani trade, but the Bargnani trade was terrible and also the worst.

  50. ok so trying to look forward from this…

    we’ve basically cleared everything past this year… we only have melo, porzingis and oquinn past next season…. you can probably count wily H as part of that group plus whoever we pickup in the draft…. that in itself isn’t bad…. if lopez was deemed not to be a good fit then trading him was the right idea… if viewed as a quasi-salary dump it’s not as horrible….

    we have about 32.2mm in cap space left if we’re not renouncing galloway which at this point is probably certain he comes back… thomas is iffy.. but if we’re not renouncing then it’s 30.2….

    FA could go alot of different ways for us but i’m almost certain that it’s not going to include howard or horford…. fitting them is going to require them taking less than max…. oquinn almost definitely needs to be dumped in that scenario also…

    we also need to fill 2 spots in the starting rotation…. but unless we’re getting durant or whiteside.. i don’t see how we’re getting to even .500 ball…

  51. hope Rose gets back but that’s a really big gamble… Rose would be wearing no 1 like Amarè

    maybe McGrady or Hardaway will come out of retirement to play for Knicks again.. is Starbury still available?

  52. In my opinion it doesn’t matter what other moves Phil makes. He gave up a great asset in Lopez and all he got back was an oft injured point guard in Rose, which is likely a one year rental. The opportunity cost between what they got in Rose and could have instead received for Lopez is enormous. This sucks!

  53. wait I thought we retired Amar’e’s number for his contribution to the 54-win season that he played 700 mediocre minutes in

  54. I’ll say it one more time and then I’m done.

    Opportunity cost, opportunity cost, opportunity cost.

    Robin Lopez on his contract had value. That was value that could have been converted into something useful. Instead it was converted into something useless, and now we have black holes at PG, SG and C instead of just at PG and SG.

    There’s a draft happening tomorrow. The Knicks don’t have a pick. If you’re really dead set on trading RoLo, how about making a trade that involves acquiring a pick? The Knicks have a young player who is potentially a franchise-type talent. Why not acquire somebody who might actually be useful when the young player fully matures? Why burn the Robin Lopez asset on a guy who is not good anymore, and who is on the final year of his contract?

    It’s a missed opportunity. Sure, Derrick Rose will probably come here and suck for one year, and then leave, so it doesn’t really kill the team in the long run. But it doesn’t help either. You can’t just keep burning through assets while getting nothing in return and expect to be anything other than a doormat. The good teams in the league don’t operate this way. The dumb teams do. Guess which one we are.

  55. Another small thing that irks me. They couldn’t even extract a draft pick from CHI this year.

  56. This isn’t performance art. It’s Dolan’s masterpiece.

    Or maybe it’s Phil. Maybe he is reading up on some strange ancient philosophies that counsel that the path forward begins, not with a single step, but instead with the most boneheaded trade in franchise history.

    I don’t know what to think. As it usually goes on these days, I am just going to once again pray that I am wrong.

  57. @51 – It’s a bad trade but not that bad.

    Slot the McDyess trade into your list as well. We got McDyess, Frank Williams, and a 2003 2nd round pick that became Maciej Lampe for Camby, Mark Jackson, and a pick that was Nene.

  58. I do not think anybody is arguing that there is a pro to this deal. Well, the only pro for me is there won’t be a max contract going to Mike Conley. Trading RoLo, Jerian Grant, and Jose Calderon for a 2017 2nd round pick was extremely dumb even if that second round pick turns into a HOF caliber player (but boy would it piss off Chicago fans).

    My point is that it is benign stupidity compared to how stupid we have been in the past. And I still believe that the Knicks were right to trade for Derrick Rose if we sign one of Whiteside and Durant and in the press conference they say “playing with Melo, KP, and Derrick Rose was the reason I chose to come here.” But that’s slim chances.

  59. I mean, if we are really scoring it closely, I guess i would still have to put Curry and Bargnani in their own special tier.

    But we just got Porzinigis. We finally have one good young player. WTF would you go get Derrick Rose?

    How can Melo like this trade? How could any FA like this trade? Doesn’t everyone realize that Derrick Rose sucks?

  60. don’t worry y’all, if being a fan of this team for 20 years has taught me anything, it’s that just when things seem to hit rock bottom, you realize that your team is a jackhammer.

    guarantee that Phil will sign some “veteran leadership” to long-term, unmovable contracts before the season starts.

  61. I hated this trade when I first heard about it. We already knew our ‘window’ or whatever was in at least 2-3 years when Porzingis gets better (and more like 5-6 years). We traded away a somewhat promising rookie, and a good youngish two-way center on a sweet deal for a rental on an oft-injured has-been.

    Then I looked at Bulls blogs, because that’s what I do when I’m not sure about a trade. And they all, almost unanimously, feel robbed. They can’t believe that “all they got” was Robin Lopez, and a maybe-future-backup PG in Jerian Grant. And they gave up a second rounder! And they gave the Knicks $15M in cap space for next summer!

    I dunno, maybe it was a bad trade, but not that bad? [pardon while I grasp]

  62. I see on ESPN that Obama is considering becoming an NBA owner after he leaves office. I hope before he leaves that he declares the Knicks a disaster area and the Federal govt takes it over. Anything has to be better than just letting Dolan continually run this franchise into the ground.

  63. Jerian Grant did not show promise as a rookie.
    Jerian Grant did not show promise as a rookie.
    Jerian Grant did not show promise as a rookie.

    He sucked last year. Completely sucked.

  64. I dunno, maybe it was a bad trade, but not that bad? [pardon while I grasp]

    Put it into context.

    Lopez for Rose – An average center with a long contract for nothing.
    Grant for Holiday – A wash
    Calderon for 2nd round pick – I would have taken a bag of basketballs

    Yes. Bad, but it could have been much worse. We have more cap room. There are better choices at center in the FA market than PGs. Rose at least has a name that’s attractive to free agent ears. His money comes off the books next year, which is a MUCH better free agent class.

  65. You guys Kill me!
    I’m not saying this trade was an absolute WIN but damn sure was a win!
    We have the same amount of cap space and even more next year, with a draft pick!
    Out PG situation was horrible..Bottom Line!
    We finally got rid of Calderon(thank the Lord) Grant isn’t that good and RoLo, I can’t find anything negative to say.
    DRose on a rental is great and we can still add Noah, Bazemore, Williams and hopefully Turner..
    I wouldn’t sign Dwight at all..
    I would shoot for the fences and try and get Whiteside but if not Noah if good enough.
    We need a quality backup PG tho..
    DRose/Bazemore/Melo/KP/Noah
    Way better than what we was throwing out last year
    And to da clown that said Calderon was gonna be great in Hornacek offense, please do not speak on basketball again!!!

  66. From the All-Star break through the end of the season, Jerian Grant was actually quite good. He had a .548 TS% and .510 eFG% after the All-Star break. He gave back a lot of that value by turning the ball over too much, but it’s not fair to say he completely sucked all season.

    He had a .030 WS48 for the year, triple what Derrick Rose was able to manage.

  67. Devil’s Advocate/Stupid Thought of the day:

    What if this convinces LeBron to come to NY?

    *ducks and runs away laughing maniacally*

  68. Grant still has a chance to be pretty good. An averagish PG on rookie contract money is fine. This deal gives us more flexibility going forward, but we’re going to need it because we have more holes. Getting a better backup wing in exchange for your starting center and creating an even bigger hole at PG is. . . suboptimal.

  69. The absolute worst thing about this trade is that Brian has to redo his “Knick Salary Cap in Anticipation of the 2016 FA Season” post.

  70. How did Calderon get so good overnight? He flat out sucked ass last year, one comment says he was going to be good in Horny’s 2 PG system. who the hell was he going to guard?

  71. Has anyone ever seen reub and JayReid83 together at the same time? Just asking.
    :-)

  72. Now instead of Tony Wroten on a minimum flier we have the max contract version of Tony Wroten at the small cost of two out of our three total positive assets

  73. Now instead of Tony Wroten on a minimum flier we have the max contract version of Tony Wroten at the small cost of two out of our three total positive assets

    aaaaaaaaaaaaand that’s the thread, folks

  74. The Chicago fans have invested a lot of emotion in Rose, so I get that they are bitter and want to vent. But come November, they won’t even remember Derrick Rose, and they certainly won’t be missing him when their team is in the playoffs and Rose’s team isn’t.

  75. So, I’ve been looking for a bright side and here’s what I’ve come up with –
    – after January 1 last year, Rose was merely bad, instead of awful as he had been for the prior 3 years.
    – his trial for sexual assault, which coincidentally is scheduled to start on the first day of training camp, is a civil trial, and not a criminal trial, which means that at least he won’t be going to jail. So, we’ve got that going for us.
    Forget the basketball side of the trade, I’m annoyed that the Knicks traded three likable guys for an asshole. Now I’m terrified that I’m going to wake up tomorrow to learn that the Knicks have traded Porzingis for Okafor.

  76. Yeah, I absolutely loved RoLo. And not just because he followed me on Twitter and loves comic books. :) Okay, that was a lot of it. ;) So the whole “building a culture of character” stuff sure sounds like empty nonsense, right?

  77. The absolute worst thing about this trade is that Brian has to redo his “Knick Salary Cap in Anticipation of the 2016 FA Season” post.

    Ha! I told you folks that I was doing it too early. :) I thought it was early because I figured they’d pick up a first round pick, though, not this! But yeah, I’ll have a new one up next week in time for the free agency period to begin.

  78. If the allegations are true, he should go to prison. I’m not opposed to the dude trying to turn his celebrity athlete status into a travelling orgy, but if he roofied someone and gang-raped her with his friends, he deserves to be in prison.

  79. Yeah, I’m not a fan of Rose the player or the person. Rolo was a cool guy to root for.

  80. From twitter I’ve learned ppl who like this trade

    1. Hate Jose Calderon and don’t care for my brand very much either;

    2. Don’t realize how bad Rose is;

    3. Think this is the patient, fiscally prudent path towards a better future

  81. There are so many inconsistencies in that woman’s argument that I doubt what she said was true, and I definitely doubt that she can win in a court of law.

  82. And you guys aren’t emotional? Some of you need to seek therapy immediately. You’ll still be complaining when Phil wins the ring because the ring has 0.2% less lustre than previous rings.

  83. And some of you are ready to put Rose in prison for simply coming to New York to make the Knicks great again? Really??

  84. Here are the actual numbers for D-Rose’s wonderful post ASB 21 game stretch:

    basic stats
    points: 17.4
    reb: 3.1
    Assist/TO: 1.77
    mins: 30.9
    DNPs: 7

    advanced stats
    +/-: -4.7
    TS%: 52.1
    O-Rating: 101
    D-Rating: 114
    game score: 11.5

    The best comparison I can find for these numbers is Dion Waiters’ sophomore season. How hyped are you guys to have Dion Waiters on a one year rental for $2om?

  85. Never put a hippie in charge of anything. That’s the #1 lesson of Phil Jackson’s tenure.

  86. What’s everyone complaining about. Here’s our starting …. um, our ENTIRE lineup:
    PG Derrick Rose – $21,323,252
    SG Justin Holiday – $1,015,696
    SF Carmelo Anthony -$24,559,380
    PF Kyle O’Quinn – $3,918,750
    C Kris Porzingis – $4,317,720

    Alright. We know O’Quinn will be a backup big and Holiday a backup wing. Based on what I read in Brian’s cap post, we’re now sitting on somewhere around $34M to spend on 3 FA’s.

    I loved the part in the cap post about having some advantage on getting both Galloway and Thomas back. And don’t forget WillyH! Just for kicks, let’s fill the back of the roster with some Westchester names: Thanasis, Bachynski and Jimmer. Toss Sasha there with a vet’s minimum to to ride some pine.

    That would really leave us needing:
    Starting SG, a 3-and-D
    Starting Center, a defensive presence.
    Backup point guard with some offense.
    What will Bazemore, Whiteside and Ish Smith cost us?

  87. If we can’t get Durant I’d settle for Bazemore and Whiteside or Noah.

    Please try to stay positive guys! We’re getting really close.

  88. Never put a hippie in charge of anything. That’s the #1 lesson of Phil Jackson’s tenure.

    Goddamn right. Fucking hippies.

  89. Anyone think of the fact that this is a trade meant more for changing the makeup of the team in general? In today’s NBA you only need three bigs, and we still have three: Zinger, O’Quinn and Willy. We need lots of guards, and this was a start, a way to get a semi-decent guard (who will probably play the 2) on a one year flier, thus clearing out a ton of space for ’17. Don’t be surprised if we STILL sign Conley to play alongside Rose and a wing for the 3, so Melo can slide over to the 4 and ‘Zingis to the stretch 5 (a la “Nutshot” Draymond). If Rose can be remotely still the slash and pass he used to be, with Melo and KP on the outside, should get some open looks. It’ll be up to Horny and the staff to get Rose to wanna play D. I think this trade has POTENTIAL: the POTENTIAL to be pretty good, and the POTENTIAL to be, well, a Knicks trade. Either way, WCS, he goes bye-bye after this season, and we get a good pick (Hell, we got screwed in last year’s lottery and we still won). We knew that this offseason wasn’t gonna be the elixir that fixes all ills, just a salve that heals some stings and promote healing in the right direction…and that direction is forward into the modern NBA, not the triangle of the 90s…and I think all these moves does that. Will we make the playoffs this year? Right this second, no, but we still have a whole FA period to see what can be done. Trust in Phil. I know, it’s really tough right now, but I really think it’s a step in the right direction. Sure, I like Lopez, but he was only good offensively because we ran the 5th slowest offense in the league. We all agree that Calderon is washed up, and Jerian, I think there’s reasons you don’t draft 23 year olds. Sure, he was mature, but maturity can be coached (by and large). I don’t think we really gave up all that much. We got rid of a long contract and financially for this season it’s a wash. We still have the same amount of money to spend this offseason, and will now have more…

  90. Anyone think of the fact that this is a trade meant more for changing the makeup of the team in general?

    that’s awfully fucking abstract for a terrible trade that yields nothing except ideas

  91. @106 Gotta start somewhere

    BTW, Sorry for the long, rambling post. Just a lot to go over.

  92. A Jimmy Butler instagram:

    jimmybutlerMy point guard, my brother: you taught me so much since I came into this
    league as a 21 year old kid from Marquette. For me, coming to Chicago to play and learn
    from you, an MVP, was eye-opening. You helped shape me into the player I am today.
    Helped teach me the work ethic needed to excel in this league. You are a leader, thru and
    thru. Always a supportive teammate and friend. I’ll always be thankful for the opportunity I
    had to play alongside you each night and I know you’re going to continue to be the great
    player and leader you were in Chicago for years to come

    All you guys do is look at numbers. Not at skills or heart.

  93. We get future cap space if we want it and a better draft pick next year. It should have been you, Melo! It should have been you!

  94. @reub

    here’s something my buddy said about me after playing a game of 2 on 2 against me in 7th grade:

    My point guard, my brother: you taught me so much since I came into this
    league as a 21 year old kid from New Jersey. For me, coming to New York to play and learn
    from you, an MVP of the asphalt, was eye-opening. You helped shape me into the player I am today.
    Helped teach me the work ethic needed to excel in this league. You are a leader, thru and
    thru. Always a supportive teammate and friend. I’ll always be thankful for the opportunity I
    had to play alongside you each night and I know you’re going to continue to be the great
    player and leader you were in New York for years to come

    First, It’s pretty messed up that Jimmy Butler plagiarized my buddy’s letter to me. Second, since clearly these types of notes are the best way to understand how good a person is basketball, does that mean you’ll start campaigning for me to get a roster spot?

  95. Well, I am not in New Jersey, so I just saw the news a couple of hours ago and am catching up here.

    Overall, I hate the trade. But I am surprised everyone else here hates it too. Since a lot of posters seem to want either a real shot at a title or to completely break the team up; this might help. Either Rose is good, or we are terrible, get a decent draft pick and have almost nobody signed next summer when the cap booms again. I thought a lot of people wanted that. We even had people suggesting trading Lopez to make room for Durant. This deal basically does that.

    Personally, I have the modest aspirations of a team that’s fun to watch and has a .500 record or better. I don’t think this trade is going to do that. So I am unhappy. But in the spirit of looking for the bright side, I will add the following.

    -If Hernangomez is as advertised, we probably can do without Lopez.

    -We are likely to suck next year and be in a good position to do stuff in the summer of 2017.

    -Justin Holiday might fill a position of need, and together with the second round pick is probably a reasonable deal for Grant and Calderon (I am considering losing Calderon a plus)

    -If O’Quinn rebounds from a down season (likely, but he probably won’t be great) and Hernangomez is signed and is good, we don’t have a logjam at center and power forward any more

    But that’s it. I can’t think of any more positives. As someone said above, we could have just kept Wroten. I am just hoping Hornacek can do something with this collection of talents. The players from last year that we are likely to re-sign are role players at best (Thomas, Williams, Galloway) so I really don’t see we have a whole team yet. Is the following really it so far?

    C: O’Quinn, Hernangomez
    PF: Porzingis, Williams, Thomas
    SF: Melo, Thomas, Holiday
    SG: Galloway, Holiday
    PG: Rose, (Galloway?)

    I don’t see us getting more than 35 wins with that lineup.

  96. Some hours to think about this now. The purpose/rationale for making the trade IMHO is…okay. What I mean by that is you can think of Grant as a throw-in at this point — probably average backup PG (not average PG — average backup PG) — and Calderon as a below-replacement PG. Grant does not move the needle one way or the other, and IMHO cannot be considered an “asset” other than that his contract is cheap.

    Now – the weaknesses of this team were painfully evident going into this offseason. We literally had zero guards worth anything. That was compounded by the fact that this is a terrible PG FA class, and not a great SG free agent class also. The strength of this class is probably in the front court, where guys that Phil might like, such as Pau or Noah may be actually “undervalued” and/or willing to accept shorter term deals. I can also see how “big picture” the most important thing is to have proper mentorship for KP – and that’s where Pau or Noah might come in.

    Re: Rose – the glass half-full way of looking at his last few seasons is that he’s a guy who relies on his explosiveness, and he just didn’t have it these past 3 seasons due to a bunch of injuries. For the first time in a few seasons, he has no rehab to do over the offseason, no surgeries to recover from. And as far as his #s from last year, I’d say it might be a reasonable reason, not just excuse that he literally had double vision for a few months. Last I checked, you need your vision to be able to shoot the ball in that itty-bitty basket. And so maybe this is a bounce back year for Rose. He is still just 27, which seems unbelievable to me.

    (I understand all the glass-half-empty stuff. Yes, high volume middling/poor efficiency doesn’t play defense etc etc)

    The problem with this trade is really a problem of asset valuation, which was a problem for Phil in the Tyson/JR/Shump trades too. The only thing to say about that is at least we didn’t lose picks.

  97. So, by the end of next season, the Knicks will have spent 3 entire seasons unintentionally tanking, and will have 1 asset to show for it.

    Good job, I guess?

  98. All you guys do is look at numbers. Not at skills or heart.

    It’s been awhile since you’ve swung the ban-hammer at your own fingers, but this time I really hope you make contact.

  99. I’m trying to think of any precedent of a player statistically (not reputation) playing at above an all-star, psuedo-MVP level for two years, getting injured, coming back and playing poorly for a couple of years before regaining some of his past glory.

    A couple of things to note before that premise is completely blown off here, and naturally there is plenty of reason to do so.

    Last year, the percent of Rose’s shots between 0-10 feet was as high it had been his two great years.
    In fact, 30 percent of his shots came at the rim, which is very close to his career average, and a higher number than some of his early seasons.

    Yes, his percentage was down markedly at the rim, from 58-60 percent his last two great years to 51-56 percent the last two.

    But the most obvious issue is the dramatic decline in FTR, from .345 his last two great years to .171 last season.

  100. I don’t even know what to root for. If Rose is half decent, which is unlikely, we’re probably mega maxing him. If he’s terrible and/or injured, I guess he’ll walk and maybe we’ll get a good pick out of it…but if we wanted to tank we could’ve just traded Lopez for a pick. I guess the latter scenario is better, but fucking hell this whole thing is just awful.

  101. Lol, I thought this was a Knick fan site.. Typical “fans”.. I’m not sayin you can’t say this deal is bad for whatever reasons you guys have but come on..
    Anyway… @ KnicksfaninNJ you put together that roster and spent about $5 million of our cap! So we’re just not gonna sign any1 huh lol
    I just wanna see these same guys on here talkn’ crap when we sign another big piece.
    Plan A-KD
    Plan B- Whiteside
    Plan C- Noah & Bazemore
    And next year-
    Plan A- Westbrook
    Then I wanna read what you guys have to say
    Another thing, I’m not saying this is a great move but it’s an ok move

  102. The real victim here is Tony Wroten who doesn’t get to be a part of this.

    Why exactly did we cut him?

  103. “Hello, Kevin, we heard you were tired of playing with a wildly athletic shoot first PG-yeah, yeah, I sympathize. So listen how about if he wasn’t athlet-hello? KD?”

  104. What’s the problem?

    1. RoLo is NOT some hugely valuable asset that would have netted us some stud or high pick in return. He’s a good but flawed player who is not really a fit for an uptempo offensive scheme. I agree that he was a good value signing for a solid rotation player, but let’s not act like we just lost Patrick Ewing.

    2. I like Grant and think he could develop into a solid rotation player. But how much better will he get at age 24? Did Shump get better? TH2? Landry Fields? Galloway?

    3. Calderon absolutely sucked last year even when healthy. Let’s not forget that his defense was beyond abysmal. All the talk here was about stretching him, which I was against b/c I’d hate to imagine that any part of his shitty salary would prevent a signing in the future. Good riddance!

    4. Let’s not forget that we got a 2nd round pick and a jerian-level player in return.

    So the real issue is: Is Rose washed up at age 27?

    If yes, whatever. Rolled the dice and lost. Tons of cap room, including the cost of RoLo’s contract. Will he be that hard to replace? If not, we gave up an asset to have cap space to potentially sign a much better asset.
    If no, maybe he becomes the beat PG on the roster in the past 15 years, which isn’t a high bar. I mean. think of the shit we have put out there…from Duhon to Felton to Calderon. If Rose can pull a Shaun Livingston, remember that guy with the wrecked knee who would never play again…then was it worth the gamble?

    Putting this trade in the class of Curry or Bargnani or Francis or McGrady is foolish. I understand not liking the deal, but the hatred is all contingent on the assumption the Rose is done. Unlike Bargnani, Rose was actually one of the best players in the league (or THE best player if MVP works for you) before his injury. Phil believes he will improve and at worst, be much better than Calderon and Grant, or that he and Holiday will be at least as good as Calderon, Grant and Lopez combined. The jury is out. I’m not sold on the deal, just not ready to say it was a mistake until I see Rose play.

    Man do I hope he plays well enough to re-visit this thread with glee.

  105. Derrick Rose is coming to New York so we know for sure he won’t get many more fouls called in his favor.

  106. A good question when deciding whether this was a good “value” trade or not is whether anyone thinks Robin Lopez would have brought a 1st round pick in trade. I’m not 100% sure of that. I would assume (maybe wrongly) that if the Knicks were considering trading Lopez, they would have looked into whether anyone would want him at that price.

    It’s fair to note that at the trade deadline last year, ZERO traditional centers of import were traded. The only “bigs” of import that were traded (or almost traded) were Markieff Morris (more of a SF/PF), Motiejunas (stretch 4), and Channing Frye (stretch 4-5). In the NBA finals, the most important traditional big was Bogut, and he averaged less than 12 min/game. OKC had Adams, but he is a far superior player to Lopez. Biyombo and Valanciunas were useful players, but it’s fair to say that in the NBA finals, neither probably would have been playable.

    Robin Lopez is a very good player, but I’m just not sure that we aren’t overvaluing him. $14MM x 3 more years in this cap climate is a good contract, but is it a great contract, especially when next season’s free agent class is so good? Would I rather have Noah on a 1 year $18MM deal (overpaying because it’s a 1 year deal) and have $14MM more in cap space next summer? Maybe. Maybe not. It’s not totally straightforward though.

  107. Woj in his podcast “SHOCKED” Knicks gave up Lopez/Grant noting no interest in Rose from other teams and stating Knicks should have just waited until July 1st and taken him into cap space. Soo Knicksy. And the only decent trade Phil’s made is the Hardaway/Grant one and he effectively negated that one in this deal. Heck even a Grant-Rose swap would have been a bad deal – Phil did give up a 1st round pick. Frank, Dolan should have heeded the advice in your letter to him and fired Phil.

  108. Does a trade grade go up based on how robust the debate on KB is regarding the grade of the trade?

  109. JayReid83,

    I’d love to sign someone good. My roster is just what I estimate we actually will have if we don’t get a good free agent.

  110. And yes. Calling the Derrick Rose trade one of the worst in franchise history is way overblown. It’s a trade we’ve already lost but the trade has zero implications going forward on our salary cap or our draft picks. I would have preferred RoLo be traded to Boston for two draft picks, but apparently that wasn’t going to happen. This trade is one that will not come back to haunt us unless RoLo or Grant becomes an All Star. Neither will happen.

  111. Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that we sign Noah for 1 year $17MM, Bazemore at a salary starting at $16MM, and bring Willy G over. We use EB rights on Galloway, and hopefully on Thomas too, although he’ll probably get more. We’d start Rose, Bazemore, Melo, KP, and Noah and have KOQ, Galloway, Thomas, and some other dudes on the roster. That’s actually not that bad. And we’d still have probably near $40MM in cap space plus our 1st rounder and CHI’s 2nd rounder next season.

    It’s not the end of the world.

    IMHO – the status quo was not good. I think it would have been a major stretch to project a 45 win team next year. Maybe a .500 season at most. Now? At least it’ll be entertaining.

    Also, my assumption is that there is something happening tomorrow night to give us a pick. Why else would the Knicks be having a draft party for the writers, which was reported yesterday.

  112. Let’s get some other things clear as well
    Calderon- HORRIBLE, nothing positive to say
    Grant- Cant shoot, career backup, mayb bottom 3 starting point guards next year
    Rolo- best tradeable asset and remember when you trade you have to make sure the money some what match up. Grant contract and a draft pick doesn’t equal up to shit! So RoLo had to go
    Also, KP is better suited to play the 5 in the long run!

  113. I really hope we use that cap space and grab Bazemore and Biyombo. Bazemore and Whiteside would be an orgasm for me, but we’d have to first trade O’Quinn for nothing in order to make that a real possibility.

  114. And you all will rue the day we didn’t get to play Jose as the starting off guard for 25 minutes a night. Such a wasted opportunity.

  115. I’ve done it. I’ve convinced myself it’s not that bad.

    I’m the most optimistic guy I know.

  116. Another thing that people aren’t really taking into consideration is that Rose was supposedly “healthy” last year but still played only 66 games. He missed a full 20% of the season because the Bulls had to rest his pudding-filled knees pretty regularly.

  117. In honor of the most current #knicksy trade, here’s a little segment that I call “Top 10 Worst Trades of the James L Dolan Era”. Where will today’s Derrick Rose trade ultimately land in the echelon of bad Dolan Era trades? Time will tell…

  118. #10 Zach Randolph – traded for a guy who at the time of his physical was deemed unfit to ever step foot on a basketball court again. Randolph went on to be an all-star and is still playing productive minutes, 8 year later. (Yes, there are nine trades worse than this… #knicks)

  119. #9 Jalen Rose – this trade was essentially the Knicks paying $30,000,000 ($15 mil to Rose, $15 mil in taxes) in exchange for the draft pick used to select Renaldo Balkman. Talk about money well spent!

  120. #8 (tie) Stephon Marbury/Carmelo Anthony – these guys cost a ton of assets each including draft picks that stretched far into the future. They were acquired to be the franchise cornerstones of their respective NYK eras, but both struggled to bring wins, let alone glory.

  121. #6 Steve Francis – this one cost the Knicks one young asset to acquire (Ariza), and another to get rid of (Frye). In true #knicks fashion, both Ariza and Frye went on to win championship rings, while Francis helped lead the Knicks to 23 wins.

  122. @Massive Cut it out already with Calderon doing anything positive!!
    Lololol You can’t be serious, like at all
    And you want him to play off the ball in a faster offense??
    He couldn’t defend PGs last year,so now try him at da 2 spot??
    He was slow in da SLOWEST offense in history, now we’re gonna get a faster offense and you want him to play 25 mins??!!!!!
    25mins is making him your 6man, a very important position.. Sum1 your counting on night in night out
    Just saying your playing around already

  123. #5 Tracy McGrady – the Rockets managed to get the Knicks 2009 first rounder, the Knicks 2011 first rounder, and the right to swap pick in 2012 for McGrady, who was exactly 5 years past being an NBA basketball player.

  124. #4 Bargnani – Toronto was all set to pay a team to take Bargnani, the over hyped, over paid prototype of a terrible basketball player. Then the Knicks called up and offered an unprotected first round pick, because who needs draft picks when you have Bargnani making awesome gifs? (Just how bad the trade was will ultimately be determined tomorrow…)

  125. #3 Antonio McDyess – the Knicks traded Marcus Camby and Nene for McDyess. Camby and Nene went on to play 1,556 games and counting… McDyess went on to play 18 games during his 2 year Knick career.

  126. #2 Eddy Curry – two unprotected lottery picks (LaMarcus Aldridge and Joakim Noah) for the right to overpay a bad player with an even worse work ethic and an uninsurable body.

  127. #1 Ewing/Rice – Trading the expiring contract of Ewing and subsequently flipping the contract of Rice for a bunch of shitty, expensive crap in year #1 of Dolan’s reign pretty much started it all…

  128. Jerian Grant had a .479 TS% on 19.0 USG%. So, he wasn’t very good, but he only takes about 11 FGA per 36 minutes.

    Derrick Rose had a .479 TS% but on 27.3% USG%. So he sucks, but he takes an extra 5 shitty field goal attempts per 36 minutes. He actually hurts you more, which is reflected in his pitiful WS48 and WP48 numbers.

    Derrick Rose really, really sucked last year.

  129. Re: Wroten – Berman implies in his most recent article that he had a “setback” – presumably his knee.
    So that answers that. There was no reason to cut a dude on a nonguaranteed contract when you have a bunch of open roster spots.

  130. Even if Lopez couldn’t have brought back a first rounder the trade is still terrible. Derrick Rose is a negative asset. Period. He gets paid $21 million dollars and hasn’t had a productive NBA season in 4-5 years, depending on what you count. What that means is that the only acceptable reason to trade for him is if you’re getting rewarded with positive assets to do so.

    Regardless of what you think about Lopez (whether he could’ve fetched a first rounder, etc), he was NOT a negative asset. Given his age, production, and salary he was almost definitely a positive one. Grant’s salary was so small he couldn’t possibly be considered a negative asset regardless of his play, and that’s ignoring the fact that he definitely had his moments. Calderon took a lot of flack, much of it deserved, but he was also our best three point shooter and was expiring anyway.

    There is simply no logical defense of this trade. It doesn’t even make sense if Rose defies all probability and plays well, that’s how fucked it is.

  131. This trade is a perfect example of why the Knicks will perennially suck ass for generations of NBA basketball. Instead of recognizing the dearth of talent and trying to rebuild from the ground up they continue to pursue half-measure rebuilds with retread hasbeens. McDyess, Curry, Bargiani, and now Rose. We should have traded Melo and Rolo while keeping Grant. We should be picking a top 5 pick now. We shouldn’t be stacking up for another failed FA run to attract talent that clearly doesn’t want to be here come 2017. Being a Knicks fan feels like being a in perpetual state of suck watching incompetent GM after incompetent GM making the same fucking mistakes over and over and over again.

  132. Being a Knicks fan feels like being a in perpetual state of suck watching incompetent GM after incompetent GM making the same fucking mistakes over and over and over again.

    I’m ready for the next incompetent GM. This one is a dead man walking. He’ll do more damage before his miserable tenure is over, so the only hope is that whatever further damage he does is minimal.

  133. @155 – That’s the funniest think I’ve heard all day – and it’s almost midnight!

  134. Again, the assumption of the naysayers is that Rose is done due to injury, a la Penny, Grant, Houston and McGrady. If he’s not, then we are having an entirely different discussion.

    It’s drawing to an outside straight, but not a debilitating gamble. I’m trusting that Phil did some research before pulling the trigger. Sort of like counting cards.

  135. There was no reason to cut a dude on a nonguaranteed contract when you have a bunch of open roster spots.

    Wroten’s contract was for about $500,000 more than the roster spot cap hold, so while yes, him having a setback is logical, I could also see Jackson cutting him for the extra cap room. Every little bit helps.

  136. “I’m ready for the next incompetent GM. This one is a dead man walking. He’ll do more damage before his miserable tenure is over, so the only hope is that whatever further damage he does is minimal.”

    Really? Right, he’d leave the Knicks with a ton of cap space, a stud draft pick, and all future draft picks intact, and no albatrosses on the roster. What a calamity! Could everybody’s fave Donnie Walsh say that?

  137. he basically torpedoes any kind of up-tempo offense Hornacek might want to run while simultaneously hurting Porzingis’ development since he won’t so much as sniff the ball when both Rose and Melo are on the court.

    This is the part of the trade that grinds me the fucking most. How does anyone think there are going to be enough basketballs on the court for KP to thrive with those two playing beside him? Besides that fact, can someone explain to me how these three mesh together? It makes no sense.

  138. “Again, the assumption of the naysayers is that Rose is done due to injury, a la Penny, Grant, Houston and McGrady. If he’s not, then we are having an entirely different discussion.

    It’s drawing to an outside straight, but not a debilitating gamble. I’m trusting that Phil did some research before pulling the trigger. Sort of like counting cards.”

    so wait if d rose plays well we get the privilege of losing in the first or second round to a properly built team? And why WOULDN’T that be worth a first round pick and a cost controlled asset that could easily fetch multiple seconds, if not multiple firsts?!

    The people who think we can end up being competitive by doing whatever constitutes this frankenstein strategy of Phil Jackson’s rather than doing a *proper rebuild* like every other healthy functioning team in the NBA does are delusional

    like, can we just fucking say NO to free agents and short term “success” for once? Last time we did it, we got Ewing.

  139. Besides that fact, can someone explain to me how these three mesh together? It makes no sense.

    “Francis and Marbury will totally work together! Just trust us!”

  140. Re: Wroten – Berman implies in his most recent article that he had a “setback” – presumably his knee.

    That makes sense. Thanks for the info. I kind of suspected the Knicks knew something about wroten we didn’t.

  141. Really? Right, he’d leave the Knicks with a ton of cap space, a stud draft pick, and all future draft picks intact, and no albatrosses on the roster. What a calamity! Could everybody’s fave Donnie Walsh say that?

    Wow, what spectacular results from three years of rebuilding! ONE good young asset. What a great time to be a Knicks fan.

  142. “Okay, okay, so we’ll punt the first three years of Melo’s mega max contract, but wait until you see year four!”

  143. Could everybody’s fave Donnie Walsh say that?

    Donny took his shot and missed but at least his plan made some fucking sense even if I didn’t always agree with it. Unfortunately, our moron of an owner did override him and forced a Melo trade which surrendered so many assets we were never able to properly build around our new star.

  144. Yeah, I didn’t like everything Walsh did, either, so I’m no huge Walsh guy, but you can’t really judge his plan when he never actually got to, you know, do his plan. Walsh would have walked away from the Melo deal rather than having the team get fleeced, and then who knows what would have happened?

  145. Really? Right, he’d leave the Knicks with a ton of cap space, a stud draft pick, and all future draft picks intact, and no albatrosses on the roster. What a calamity! Could everybody’s fave Donnie Walsh say that?

    …a ton of cap space after multiple losing seasons where the express goal of making the playoffs, future picks intact (except all of our seconds are traded, and our first rounder from last year, too), a stud draft pick that he lucked into by aforementioned playoff goals (talk about failing upward!), and no albatrosses on the roster, besides the highest paid guy on the team with a balky knee and a no trade clause and his friend from Chicago with no knees that Dolan or Phil decided to megamax because he rebounded to slightly below league average from well below replacement level.

    Really fantastic tenure, right there.

  146. As I said before, I don’t mind this trade. I like the clipping Lopez’s contract, we can now bring in Hernangomez, and we can now legitimately bring Melo to the 4. Now, we just need a shit ton of guards.
    As far as I know, this is what we currently have, correct me if I’m wrong?
    1- No one.
    2 – Rose, Galloway
    3 – Holiday
    4 – Melo, Thomas
    5 – Porzingis, O’Quinn

  147. Anyway, I am optimistic with this trade. I’m betting for a playoff next season or s number two in the east at best. We still have the money. I am not sure if we will spend it to some long term contracts or we will get another d.rose for a rental. KD is the ultimate dream. No one thinks Lebron will sign in Miami and will be back in Cleveland. We still have the offseason and one thing is for sure, our team right now can compete without sacrificing the future. Hoe we will support our team

  148. “Francis and Marbury will totally work together! Just trust us!”

    And don’t forget when Melo promised us he could effectively play with A’mare. LOLOLOLOL.

  149. I’m trusting that Phil did some research before pulling the trigger. Sort of like counting cards.

    I’d rather trust the Chicago front office on this one. Rose is a hometown guy and a #1 pick. Nobody knows his health better than the Bulls. Why would they trade him if they felt there’s a decent chance he would rebound?

  150. Here’s a decent rule: if all of your successes were caused by your plans backfiring, you’re an awful GM.

  151. his friend from Chicago with no knees that Dolan or Phil decided to megamax because he rebounded to slightly below league average from well below replacement level.

    The trade’s awful, but I don’t think it’s fair to knock him for something that hasn’t happened yet. There’s plenty to knock him for as it is.

  152. Donny took his shot and missed but at least his plan made some fucking sense even if I didn’t always agree with it.

    no need to rehash this, but I’ve gone on record saying that Donnie Walsh did a pretty god-awful job as GM. He hired exactly the wrong coach to woo Lebron, gave away the farm to try and get Lebron to come, then blew the cap space on Amare and his knees. And then — the only thing he was brought here for was to control Dolan– and he couldn’t do that, leading to the Melo trade. And let’s not forget that he gave away craploads of draft picks, even without Dolan’s help.

  153. “The people who think we can end up being competitive by doing whatever constitutes this frankenstein strategy of Phil Jackson’s rather than doing a *proper rebuild* like every other healthy functioning team in the NBA does are delusional

    like, can we just fucking say NO to free agents and short term “success” for once? Last time we did it, we got Ewing.”

    Or we can be like Boston for the many years prior to the “big 3” trade, or like Minny, or Philly, or Sacto. I mean, was Ewind a sure thing? No one ever has even close to a 50-50 chance of a #1 pick any more. And if Rose sucls as much as people here think he will, we actually ARE tanking!

  154. And then — the only thing he was brought here for was to control Dolan

    He wasn’t brought in to control Dolan. He was brought in because Stern pressured Dolan to hire Walsh as the GM and Dolan said okay, but then overruled him on the biggest trade of their tenure together. Dolan was never a Walsh guy, so how could Walsh “control” him?

  155. The trade’s awful, but I don’t think it’s fair to knock him for something that hasn’t happened yet. There’s plenty to knock him for as it is.

    well we were just saying a week ago that derrick rose wouldnt be coming to the knicks without significant assets being given to us

    and we were saying months ago that there was no way rambis would get the job (and of course he was the #2 choice)

    and we were saying before that the Phil Jackson tenure was going to value young player development and patient rebuilding and not making senseless trades

    and here we are. Why give him the benefit of the doubt when he’s been nothing but HORRIBLE. Just because he’s better than the all time brain trusts that preceded him doesn’t mean he isn’t horrible

  156. KP had a usage of 24.6, which I frankly thought was asking way too much of him given his strength limitations.

    I don’t think finding shots is necessarily the issue, it’s the lack of people who can make them. Everything Rose can still give you as a consistent penetrator — and he’s still very good — is negated by such poor efficiency and a relatively low assist rate.

  157. well we were just saying a week ago that derrick rose wouldnt be coming to the knicks

    and we were saying months ago that there was no way rambis would get the job (and of course he was the #2 choice)

    and we were saying before that the Phil Jackson tenure was going to value young player development and patient rebuilding and not making senseless trades

    and here we are. Why give him the benefit of the doubt when he’s been nothing but HORRIBLE

    Yeah, but when there’s so much to knock him for that he actually did, why not just stick with that? Dude just traded for Derrick Rose, ya know? You don’t have to exactly reach to find fault.

  158. Rose hasn’t played more than 7 consecutive games with 30+ minutes since the 2011-12 season…
    Maybe we shouldn’t have traded all of our other PGs for him?

  159. “Yeah, I didn’t like everything Walsh did, either, so I’m no huge Walsh guy, but you can’t really judge his plan when he never actually got to, you know, do his plan. Walsh would have walked away from the Melo deal rather than having the team get fleeced, and then who knows what would have happened?”

    I hate this bullshit apologist rhetoric. Walsh could have resigned on the spot if he felt forced into making a trade or move he didn’t believe in. Please don’t defend him because he didn’t have the balls to walk away at age 200 for the reasons of integrity. If he didn’t resign, he owns the moves, period.

  160. You’re not wrong, Brian. I just want to wallow, because this is yet another failed Knicks era, and the only bright spot is Porzingis, who’s going to waste his career here before he leaves 8 years from now with a couple picks in a sign and trade for career sub .100 WS/48 Andrew Wiggins.

  161. The best thing about that stupid McDyess trade is that after we shipped him out in the Starbury deal he got good again and spent 5 years as a valuable member of a terrific Pistons team.

  162. At least Donnie tried to get top tier talent in its prime. Even STAT gave us one half of an MVP caliber season. Phil’s remedy is to get me a washed up Derek Rose? Hell naw.

    And lets not pretend Lebron was ever seriously going to entertain the idea of coming to play here. He, Wade and Bosh had their little farce drawn out to make the entire league think there was some sort of legitimate competition for their services instead of a back room collusion with Pat Reilly. Unfortunately, that threw a massive wrench into Donnie’s plans.

  163. The best thing about that stupid McDyess trade is that after we shipped him out in the Starbury deal he got good again and spent 5 years as a valuable member of a terrific Pistons team.

    Oh man, I totally remember hating that at the time. I felt awful rooting against his success, because he seemed like a nice guy, but, well, I did. ;)

  164. Everything Rose can still give you as a consistent penetrator — and he’s still very good — is negated by such poor efficiency and a relatively low assist rate.

    Which is the real problem. He’s going to want his shots, KP will defer, and he sure as hell won’t pass the fucking ball.

  165. Which is the real problem. He’s going to want his shots, KP will defer, and he sure as hell won’t pass the fucking ball.

    End of the game hero ball is going to be hilarious. “Your turn.” “Now your turn.” “Now your turn.”

    Remember that ugly game where Rose and Melo traded ugly shots back and forth and kept missing until finally Melo hit one and then Rose hit an ugly game-winner? Imagine that now on the same team! :)

  166. Sorry, Walsh has to own the Amare signing, the McGrady trade, the Melo signing and the LeBron non-happening. If Dolan was pulling the strings, that’s on Walsh’s character. He had plenty of money and a successful career to fall back on, and was free to walk away at any point.. No excuses for him.

    If Phil left right now, we’d be in far better long term shape than we were when Walsh walked away, no matter what happens with Rose. Walsh was a total disaster, second only to Isiah.

  167. the only bright spot is Porzingis, who’s going to waste his career here before he leaves 8 years from now with a couple picks in a sign and trade for career sub .100 WS/48 Andrew Wiggins.

    Sadly, I think KP will stay on this shitshow of a franchise throughout his wasted career ala David Wright with the Mets out of loyalty to the fans and organization.

  168. Sadly, I think KP will stay on this shitshow of a franchise throughout his wasted career ala David Wright with the Mets out of loyalty to the fans and organization.

    He’ll have company with Melo through it all. :)

  169. Honestly, the silver lining here could be another Rose injury, handing the full-time duties to Galloway, with a dynamic KP/Melo frontcourt with someone like Bazemore on the wing.

    That might be pretty interesting.

    To waste a good player on a really good contract is unfathomable, but this opens up a ton of minutes for Melo and KP at their best respective positions.

  170. To waste a good player on a really good contract is unfathomable, but this opens up a ton of minutes for Melo and KP at their best respective positions.

    Yeah, I wasn’t even against trading RoLo for that very reason. Especially with Hornacek’s system. That they’d trade him for this is, well, you said it well – unfathomable.

  171. something like rose recovering to MVP form is just not going to happen…. at least in the way that we all know how rose was…. he’s already shifted his game out further away from the paint… and once you start doing that you don’t get it back….

    in order for him to regain any value is to be a 3pt threat… and to make sure he doesn’t lose anymore efficiency on his drives… he can still be a league avg guard which could be helpful… this is sort of the grant hill path…. but grant hill had a wildly more diverse skill set than rose….

    in order for that to happen he has to accept that the mvp rose is gone forever…. if he’s trying to do that chasing his next contract then he’s going to make arron afflalo look like stephen curry….

  172. It’s inane to project that KP at age 21 will waste his career with the Knicks based on this move, or any others that Phil has made. Again, we have cap space and picks. Oh, by the way, we only have KP because Phil had the balls to take him over the likes of Mudiay and Cauley-Stein.Who did YOU want to draft at #4?

  173. The best part about this trade is that come this time next year we’ll be drafting Harry Giles and trading for another buffet of picks when Carmelo waives his NTC after we strike out on every relevant free agent

  174. Why is everyone writing off Jerian Grant? In the last 6 games of the season against some good EC teams which had an incentive to win, Grant posted a .567 TS%. Yeah yeah, it’s a small sample but it’s the first time he played more that 30mpg when he knew he wouldn’t be yanked. And the 1 position’s got a steep learning curve so the stats at the end are more relevant (JK47 gave some post-break stats). It would be hilarious if Chicago Grant becomes early Drose lite, executing Lopez PnRs, attacking the rim, and dishing to Mirotic and McDermott for open 3s. The worst part of this deal is that (1) we gave away a young player who’s got some potential and (2) the ability to trade Lopez for a pick(s) or another young player. Both could have been part of our intermediate and longer-term KP future.

  175. The best part about this trade is that come this time next year we’ll be drafting Harry Giles and trading for another buffet of picks when Carmelo waives his NTC after we strike out on every relevant free agent

    He’s never waiving the NTC.

  176. Wait, Wright wasted his career? What career? He got a “max” contract for mediocre performance for the last how many years? He’s one of the luckiest players in the league!

  177. Sorry, Walsh has to own the Amare signing, the McGrady trade, the Melo signing and the LeBron non-happening. If Dolan was pulling the strings, that’s on Walsh’s character. He had plenty of money and a successful career to fall back on, and was free to walk away at any point.. No excuses for him.

    This is 20/20 second guessing made in hindsight. Donnie had a reason for making dubious trades to rebuild via FA by clearing cap space for a run at the big wave of FAs coming out. Yes, he got played and didn’t have a real backup plan when he wasn’t able to get Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. to come our way. And, D’Antoni wasn’t the best head coach to attract a point guard weak FA class with. But I can respect someone who isn’t rebuilding to produce half-ass .500 team that is going to get bounced from the first round. That was the one time in this miserable generation of 21st century Knicks basketball where we actually were playing to win big with a real plan. What’s our plan now? Can anyone seriously tell me what’s our plan now? I want to know.

  178. I know this has been mentioned a bunch of times already, but it’s a real extra kick in the balls that Lopez, Grant, and Calderon all seemed like good guys while Derrick Rose awaits the results of his sexual assault case and has just generally seemed like an asshole for a while now.

  179. It’s inane to project that KP at age 21 will waste his career with the Knicks based on this move, or any others that Phil has made. Again, we have cap space and picks. Oh, by the way, we only have KP because Phil had the balls to take him over the likes of Mudiay and Cauley-Stein.Who did YOU want to draft at #4?

    fwiw i wanted either Porzingis or Cauley Stein, though I erred towards Cauley Stein (who had a very good rookie season with Sacramento, so it’s not as if that would’ve been a huge miss, or at least we can’t infer that until later.)

    it’s just pretty clear that phil is massively incompetent when it comes to roadmapping the teams future and only got bailed out by stumbling into porzingis.

  180. Oh, no doubt, if Jerian blossoms, this trade becomes an abject disaster no matter how Rose plays.

  181. For sure, Brian.

    And it’s not that Rose isn’t getting to the rim. He’s still one of the game’s elite penetrators at 6 shot attempts per game at the rim — roughly the amount Isaiah Thomas gets to the rim.

    It’s that his foul rate is extremely low for a driver, and at this point he’s a middling finisher for a guard.
    When you combine that with poor outside shooting, yikes.

    But there’s still a lot of athleticism there, no doubt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aespZdGCsLg

  182. Why is everyone writing off Jerian Grant?

    I don’t like trading Grant, either, especially with Hornacek coming in this season, but like Grant or not, the trade is really about dumping the Lopez contract for a terrible player that the Bulls should have had to give assets with to get people to take him off of their hands. As Woj noted, no one else was trying to trade for Rose. Because he is shitty. This is like the Bargs trade, where no one was going to trade anything of note for Bargs (teams were willing to take him for free, though, which is an indictment on the rest of the NBA GMs out there, as well) and then the Knicks stepped in with a first rounder.

  183. Stumbled into Porzingis? Wow. You are obviously arguing from a “Phil sucks” starting point so there’s no use even engaging.

  184. the thing i fear most about kp is not really how many shots he gets.. but the quality of the shots… he tends to fall into the ‘ok it’s my turn to shoot’ which is what all those top of the key 3pt’ers are….

    with rose and melo it’s basically going to be that…. i’m not sure if either of them know what a good shot is…. i think we started seeing melo be better at this last year…. hopefully horny’s offense fixes some of that but rose has had incredibly bad habits which haven’t exactly gone away…

    i hope it just doesn’t pollute kp’s offensive game…

  185. 1) we gave away a young player who’s got some potential and (2) the ability to trade Lopez for a pick(s) or another young player. Both could have been part of our intermediate and longer-term KP future.

    Yeah. I get the argument that it’s easier to say trade Lopez than to actually trade him, but we traded him for a backup wing and cap space. That’s a pretty bad haul for a guy on a below market contract. And I’m growing increasingly skeptical of Phil’s ability to use cap space wisely, because he just traded the only good FA he’s signed for more cap space.

  186. It’s inane to project that KP at age 21 will waste his career with the Knicks based on this move, or any others that Phil has made

    After watching the last 15 years of Knicks basketball and looking at this shitshow of a trade you really have some balls to think that this franchise is going anywhere anytime soon. Its rotten from the top down.

    Wait, Wright wasted his career? What career?

    Are you serious? He’s the best 3rd baseman of his generation. A-Roid was a juicer so I don’t count him. The Mets squandered prime years in 2007-2010 unable to build around him.

  187. while Derrick Rose awaits the results of his sexual assault case and has just generally seemed like an asshole for a while now.

    I think Melo likes his game a lot, but you know what’s interesting? Wasn’t he sort of a dick during the Chicago recruiting of Melo, as well? Something like, “That’s not my job” or something like that? Has Melo made a statement on the deal yet?

  188. Why don’t we just wait and see how Melo, KP and Rose work together before drawing conclusions? It’s perhaps Rose’s last contract year. He’s obviously obsessed with getting a max deal. Let’s see what happens.

  189. because he just traded the only good FA he’s signed for more cap space.

    He’s like the basketball version of Annie. The sun will come out next season! And he’s betting the Knicks’ bottom dollar on it. ;)

  190. Desoite his great character, Wright has undisputedly underperformed his contract for the last several years. I’ve been a Mets fan since Ron Swoboda, and I can tell you that Wright didn’t waste anything, he got way overpaid for what he has produced during this last contract. Check the numbers and get back to me. He’s not much different than Amare.

  191. ruru… with rose.. it’s not just attempts at the rim… the low foul rate signfies quality looks or drives towards the rim.. it’s happening less frequently…

    and if you notice his 3pr went up in 2014 but took another dive this season.. that probably points to his orbital issues so he was probably forcing a lot of those drives out of necessity due to his vision… the year before he definitely was driving less…

  192. It’s perhaps Rose’s last contract year. He’s obviously obsessed with getting a max deal. Let’s see what happens.

    Spoiler alert

    He’s not gonna get a max deal

  193. Stumbled into Porzingis? Wow. You are obviously arguing from a “Phil sucks” starting point so there’s no use even engaging.

    i really dont want to rehash this, but Phil Jackson engineered the worst knicks team of all time with the express intent of making it to the playoffs–he never intended to tank to the top 5 pick, and in fact resisted all the way through, allowing tim fucking hardaway to shoot our way out of the #1 pick for Towns, and then selected the next best lotto ticket, and ended up scratching off a million dollars. Since then, we’ve had another losing season, almost hired Kurt fucking Rambis, and are currently starting down the barrel of yet another, with a sub 30 win total distinctly possible. He stumbled into his only success, and now we’ve got smoking-gun evidence showing how incompetent he is.

    It’s literally amazing that anyone could perceive of Phil, or this trade, as anything but a dumpster fire. Then again, plenty of people here thought the Bargnani trade wasn’t an unmitigated disaster, so I shouldn’t be particularly surprised.

    He will only ever look good in comparison to prior Knicks GMs, who were serious contenders for the worst GMs in NBA history, or any sport, for that matter. If Walsh doesn’t get a pass for the situation he was put in, why does Phil?

    Again: every single success of Phil Jackson’s tenure has arisen from his actual plans backfiring spectacularly on him

  194. Rose is 27 and Melo is 32. Neither one of those are changing their games. They are what they are. Its going to be booty watching them take low percentage shots in inefficient possessions.

  195. I’m happy Reub is posting here because we need some optimism but I’ve thrown in the towel. Now we have less youth than before, and I think little prospect of having a good team next year unless Hornacek works miracles. We do have dollars to spend, but it’s hard to get impact players. I expect more fill to be hired, like Afflalo and O’Quinn, rather than A list players, because now we actually need a lot of bodies.

  196. @215. Yup, he’s a dick. Not as bad as Rondo, but pretty bad. Unlikable.

    I actually think that both Melo and KP could profit a bit from Rose on the court. If he can stay healthy and is willing to pass off his drives, that is. Problems are that he can’t shoot or defend!

  197. Desoite his great character, Wright has undisputedly underperformed his contract for the last several years.

    You mean from injuries he incurred carrying shitty Mets teams on his back when he should have been on the DL? Stupid managers like Willie Randolph and Jerry Manuel who worked their players into the ground were as responsible as anyone for David’s shortened career. But that’s besides the point, which is that you can very well fail to build around a cornerstone player and the Knicks are a prime candidate with KP to do it.

  198. I just saw a former player and Bulls analyst who worked out with Rose a month ago being interviewed. He said, and I quote, Rose looked like Secretariat at the Belmont Stakes. Will all of the nattering nabobs of negativity please at least give this 27 yr old former MVP a chance?

  199. Or we can be like Boston for the many years prior to the “big 3? trade, or like Minny, or Philly, or Sacto.

    We’ve been bad for 15+ years. The pre-big 3 Celtics went only 5 years between playing in the ECF (2002) and winning a title (2007). And the Kings have been to the conference finals more recently than the Knicks have. And the Sixers have been to the finals more recently than the Knicks have. And the Timberwolves are way further on the path to competing for a title than the Knicks are.

  200. Oh btw youth is wasted on the young. Phil has found the key to making us great today. No promissory notes that never develop. He’s going to probably add KD or Batum or Noah plus Bazemore or Turner and turn us into instant contenders with a rejuvenated All Star at the PG. This is the offseason when we should all see the amazing possibilities.

  201. Livingston and McDyess are both examples of players whose careers seemed to be over prematurely, but returned to have an impact in the league. But they came back as reserves <20 mins a game. That may be Rose's role at some point, but I doubt that it will be his role in New York. More likely, he'll play 30 games this year, shut it down, have surgery, take a year off, then come back and win a title backing up Chris Paul on the Heat.

  202. He Reub, you’re right, ask any Bulls fan or go and look for yourself. The guy is still one of the most athletic players in the league. He simply did not finish well and missed a ton of relatively easy layups last season. Some say it was the eye. No idea. But he can still get there with the best of them.

  203. Derrick Rose was a chucker in 2010-11. He owes his MVP trophy to his teammates, who helped them achieve a league-best DRtg while having a slightly above-average ORtg.

    Voters lose their collective minds over team win totals. This is absolutely fucking factorial. And it doesn’t mean shit when it comes to individual ability.

    But honestly, who gives a fuck at this point? James Dolan is the worst fucking owner in sports and Phil Jackson is a senile old man who doesn’t know the first fucking thing about how to put a team together.

  204. Yeah, I’m at the “who cares” part of my Knick fandom. They’ll never win anything. I appreciate them as comedic farce more than anything else. Watching musty old hippie Phil Jackson try to build an empire on the backs of Carmelo Anthony’s decline phase and Derrick Rose’s two bad knees is just the newest episode in the latest season of the comedy. The fanbois who think these moves are strong ideas just make the whole circus that much more entertaining. When it all comes inevitably crashing down there is the very small satisfaction and smug superiority that comes with pointing and laughing at those who were foolish enough to buy into the idea that the team might actually be a winner for once. This same cycle has been repeating itself since the Patrick Ewing trade. It’s oddly comforting.

    Winning, that’s for other franchises. That’s not what we do here. What we do here is like an episode of Three’s Company, or a Pink Panther film or some other broad slapstick farce.

  205. Not surprising that a trade involving consensus all-time great Novak, the only Knick EVER worthy of a Silvermanian portrait, would precipitate a post such as this.
    ….
    What this trade essentially hinges on is whether Bargnani will be better than the 2016 first round pick, likely to be around #20 of that draft. The salary was already tied up in two horrendous contracts, in fact, his contracgt expires earlier.

    Quick, two guesses about who made these comments in response to a satirical post defending the bargs trade shortly after it was announced.

    #bargscoloredglasses

  206. Rose Melo trading passive aggressive shots in the press is something I am going to relish if it somehow goes tits up this season

  207. I’ve been saying for a while that Phil should trade 4 Rose. So I kinda half-called it, only I wanted to trade Melo for Rose because it would be easier to get a good wing than a PG. Plus, Rose is younger and on a shorter deal. The Knicks are gonna rise with KP’s ascension- not Melo’s. And I’ve been saying that Phil has to make that move because time is more on Rose’s side than Melo’s. I hope the trade works because if Rose can get to 80% of what he was and Hornacek can work with him on becoming a PG that can penetrate and kick, then that’s alot of easy buckets for KP & Melo. So there is a possible silver lining in this trade, albeit an unlikely one. Whoever starts at the 2 needs to be a great shooter and can handle the ball in a pinch. So what about adding Daniels, Teletovic, Hernangomez, Noah, and bringing back Wroten, Thomas, and Galloway? And if there’s cap space to do so, bring back Williams as well? Jimmer is probably worth a spot as a designated shooter. If Kerr or Paxon can contribute for the Bulls, why not Jimmer?

  208. Gilbert Arenas weighs in:

    Im sorry yall but Phil jackson must have a tape of the bulls GM playing with

    #caitlynjennerBalls or something to agree to that trade????

    #PhilRealMVP #BlackMailTrade??

  209. Keep this in mind about Derrick Rose: BOTH of his knees are fucked up.

    Here’s how his last five seasons have gone:
    2011-2012 Had season-ending surgery on left knee
    2012-2013 Missed entire season
    2013-2014 Had season-ending surgery on right knee
    2014-2015 Had season-ending surgery on right knee
    2015-2016 Made it through season without surgery but did miss 20 games

    Even if he has a huge bounce-back season this year, you simply cannot give him a long-term contract. His knees are a ticking time bomb. I mean, it’s really really really likely he’s gonna hurt one of those knees again.

  210. When it all comes inevitably crashing down there is the very small satisfaction and smug superiority that comes with pointing and laughing at those who were foolish enough to buy into the idea that the team might actually be a winner for once.

    Damn dude……

  211. One last thing before I call it a night. Rose’s bff Kevin Durant is in town. Are the stars all aligned?

  212. Tiny silver lining- given the fact that the Bulls are definitely listening to offers for Jimmy Butler and Pau is probably leaving, they have a chance to be really bad this year. So having a high second round pick in what is supposed to be a very good draft next year might yield you the equivalent of Jerian Grant on a better contract. Or not.

  213. Tiny silver lining- given the fact that the Bulls are definitely listening to offers for Jimmy Butler and Pau is probably leaving, they have a chance to be really bad this year. So having a high second round pick in what is supposed to be a very good draft next year might yield you the equivalent of Jerian Grant on a better contract. Or not.

    Agreed, that is a tiny silver lining. Hey, it’s something!

  214. Tiny silver lining- given the fact that the Bulls are definitely listening to offers for Jimmy Butler…

    Wasn’t it either Butler or Rose that had to go? Why trade them both? Especially since they are better today than they were yesterday.

  215. The Bulls just traded the reason they missed the playoffs to the Knicks for two superior players-they’ll be fine next year.

  216. Yeah, the Bulls will likely be fine, but I still like that the Knicks at least got a draft pick out of this mess.

  217. The Bulls just traded the reason they missed the playoffs to the Knicks for two superior players-they’ll be fine next year

    Wrong again! SMH, 3, they have three superior players. lol.

  218. It was alot easier dealing with the Knicks being the Knicks when the Yankees were very good but now that the Knicks suck and the Yankees are pretty bad themselves I’m hating life lol. Speaking of McDyess he did have a helluva pre-season before blowing his knee out again in the final freaking game with like 2 mins left. Why the hell was he still in the game????

  219. We’re tanking this year and maximizing cap space for 2017, right?

    This reminds me of the Chandler trade in that Phil tries to combine as many disparate moves into one deal as possible.

    We see here:

    1. Gamble on a Rose career renaissance/secret R’hllor blood magic therapy for his knees

    2. Clear cap space for 2017

    3. Accumulate assets (one second rounder, CHECK!)

    4. Tank for 2017 draft if Rose maintains same level of play from past 3 seasons

    5. Test even further Melo’s patience to play on a rebuilding team when Rose’s body crumbles again 20 games in?

  220. The Hyperbole today has been outrageous. This One of the greatest high reward low risk deals I’ve ever seen.

    Let me lay this out for you loons.

    1. KP and Melo would be the starting 4/5 going into next season. That’s a fucking nightmare for the defense. You can run 4/5 pnrs and all other kind of crazy shit. Also with Rose driving you can camp Melo and KP at the three point lines. How the fuck do you stop that? The Warriors do this when they have Green at the 5. That has amazing potential.

    2. 2017.

    Getting rose on a 1 year flyer gives u 2 things. You get Lopez contract off the books freeing up more cap. Then if rose is great u can sign him with bird rights. It will be like money manipulation. That is like using Lopezs money 2 times. Also u can get noah or Pau to be the backup on a 1 year deal.

    3. Clear 2016 FA objectives

    Now we know what Phil has to do. Sign guys like bazemore or. Fournier to the same equivalent deals to aflalo and Williams. Taking the higher cap into acct of course.

    So you have a chance of catching lightning in a bottle this year ala the 54 win team. And no matter the result you are in a great position in the 2017 offseason with Lopez contract off the books. And also Holliday could develop into a better shooting thabo sefalosha type and you GOT a fucking pick out of it.

    CHILL the Fuck out. Phil is playing the long game just like u asked while giving us a chance to catch lightning in. Bottle….

    Win win people.also if we suck like you guys are rooting for. We have our pick so it’s wins all around

    Phil gets a fucking A on this deal.

  221. And Indiana traded George Hill for the #12 pick. George Hill is 30 years old and on the last year of his contract.

    Shit!

  222. @254 Best I can give on this deal is an incomplete. If Phil doesn’t come through with an FA signing to make up for the loss of Lopez, the Knicks are boned.

    I’m not sure KP is ready to play a full season at the 5. Hernangomez has rookie adjustments to make. KOQ is out to lunch mentally half the time.

  223. That’s a great trade for all teams involved. I don’t I’ve ever seen that before.

  224. Speaking of McDyess he did have a helluva pre-season before blowing his knee out again in the final freaking game with like 2 mins left. Why the hell was he still in the game????

    Oh man, that brought back some awful memories. You’re so good at bringing up awful old memories, Al. :)

  225. @ 253, 1-4 seem like they’re exactly the thought process. #5 might be ‘keep Melo happy by giving the appearance of a move to win now.’ I guess it’s good to have a backup plan to your longshot but we just took a several steps backwards. Phil took our chips off the passline and dropped them on the horn. I think he has a gambling problem.

  226. 254.

    You get Lopez contract off the books freeing up more cap.

    Why do people keep saying this is a positive? We had a good rotation C on an amazingly cheap contract for what he did. Other than drafting KP the Lopez contract was easily the best thing Phil’s done! Now we’ve got an expensive one year rental and have to fill that hole. KP isn’t ready to play the 5 unless he adds 40 pounds and/or we want to wear him out young. Is HG going to come over and start at the 5 right away? O’Quinn gonna take that spot? We’ll be lucky to get someone at that position for double the money Lopez was getting and we’re STILL going to need to pay for good guards. Trading Lopez doesn’t help the cap situation down the road, it makes it worse. The only way this makes sense is if we’re stealth tanking again. Which fine, let’s do that! We should round it out with a one year rental on Howard for 25mil, really just tank with proper drama. That’s where Hinkie went wrong you know, not enough drama in The Process.

  227. To be fair Brian I also bring back alot of great memories from the 90’s!! I googled the McDyess Knicks injury and its even stupider than I remembered. It was actually during just the 3rd pre-season game which makes it worse because he played 38 mins that game!! He injured his knee with 1 min 55 sec left in the game. What the hell was he doing playing 38 mins in the 3rd pre-season game a year after his major knee injury?? He did average 17.7 pts and 13 rebs per game during that pre-season so I was correct that he played well and that game he got injured he had 23 pts and 15 rebs. Fucking Don Chaney was an idiot.

  228. @er — let’s say you have this nice watch, worth like $5,000, but all the sudden you receive word that in a year, you will be eligible to win an award of a new $60,000 rolex. It’s a long shot, but in the event that you win, you’ll be disqualified if you have any other watches. Of course, you’ll have at least a week’s notice between the time you receive notice that you’ve won and the time the award givers come to check if you own any other watches.

    Do you…

    A) give away your $5k watch now for nothing (i.e. what the Knicks did with Lopez)

    B) sell your watch now to the highest bidder (i.e. trade Lopez for players/picks of actual value)

    C) wait around and only sell the watch if you receive a strong offer or notification that you’ve won (you get the idea)

  229. Nah. Look at my post. Listen you will be remembering this night in 2017. The Knicks will either be good/great next year and still flexible in 2017. If they suck they will be flexible AND HAVE YOUR NO 1 pick

  230. Maybe it is a way for Phil to tank the season without Dolan noticing… But of course we will sign Dwight Howard.

    I guess Rose could improve, and even if he does not go back to his previous form, be an above average PG, which would make the trade a wash, but I have 0 faith in that.

  231. Yeah the dude is still 27. He has at least a solid 5-6 years left in him before he starts to really decline.

    Good bless you r/nba

  232. Next season may be disastrous and make even Melo waive his no trade clause or be great and attract more big names to NYK.[slim chance but not impossible]
    At least the next season would not be boring.
    …and you can always rebuild around KP since he’s much too young.

  233. Exactly. I can’t see any downside to this deal. It’s a win win no matter what. Melo waving his NTC is even in play

  234. I amazed at the negativity of the comments. The trade is essentially a salary dump. We purged some $40 million plus of salaries this week. Rose is on a for year and last i checked folks were begging for Afflalo and Claderon to move out and save money. Here you get a serviceable guard who is 6’6″ off the bench probably better than Grant (who couldn’t shoot), and a 2 pick.

    It is easier to secure a 5 in this market than a guard this year with Rondo bringing his own character flaws, Conley unlikely and coming off injury, (with same stats as Rose), Teague nothing to write home about. Etc.

    Imagine Knicks sign KD. All pain subsides. If they don’t and he stays in the West, say with Golden State, them you honestly believe Klay is gonna play # 4 behind Draymont, Durant and Curry? The play isn’t for Rose, nor necessarily for Westbrook. I see Phil seeking Klay and Rose/# 5/ Melo/ KP/ Klay or Westbrook works for me. I’ll pass on Gasol and need to see if Noah can play but otherwise BB makes sense. Perhaps More than Whiteside. RSP

  235. I amazed at the negativity of the comments. The trade is essentially a salary dump.

    I don’t even necessarily buy that this was intended as a salary dump (we’ll know for sure very soon, depending on who the Knicks sign), but if it is, then it’s stupid for that reason, as well, since you shouldn’t “salary dump” good players on affordable contracts.

  236. Who the fuck are these good players? The only one the Knicks gave up was Lopez. And good Rose is better than good Lopez.

  237. Good players ?
    …..good??
    JCalderon is JCalderon.
    JGrant played a few good games where games didn’t really matter and
    RLopez started the season playing average w/o even finishing games[i don’t remember him playing on the 4th quarters under Fisher] but finished the season strong making us like him a lot for his team spirit and his effort.
    Despite the fact that ROLO was very likeable andJGrant was promising we definitely needed upgrading on both positions.
    If we were alone on this league and all the free agents wanted to come to NYK i wouldn’t like this trade and i’d like to get KD, StephCurry, CP3 and all the “HOT & HEALTHY ONES” but since this league is ruthless i call this a brave & smart move, i love it, i support it and i’m waiting for Phil’s next step on the ring direction.

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