222 thoughts to “Derrick Rose Trade Memes”

  1. Can’t find any evidence that the Knicks would like to make Porzingis a center.

  2. That is really funny.

    What do you think is going through Hornacek’s head right now? “I just lied and said Derrick Rose is good.”? “I think Derrick Rose will be great and I’m psyched for him to lead us to the playoffs this year.”?

    Are these guys snake oil vendors or do they have some belief/ reason to believe? If what is being practically universally accepted turns out to be true then Phil just tanked another season. It might be for the best. Conley, KD probably weren’t coming. I mean, the one thing you can say about Bargnani, he was a major reason we got Kristaps. Still, it’s pretty Sixersish to throw in the towel in June. So, that disappoints because I like basketball.

    Still, say, Rolo stays and we play .500 basketball, make the playoffs, get killed, draft someone like TH2 at #24? Or play sub .500 and get Denzel Valentine at #14? Where are we then? Does someone like KD wanna come to that?

    Back in the AB argument someone said the only good thing would be if he didn’t play. He’s just an IRA.

  3. You guys just love reading each other’s posts about how bad Rose is and how many 1st round picks we could have gotten for RoLo. I’m not saying that Rose is going to light the world on fire next season but that is not the point. I sure hope Durant doesn’t read this blog — not that any professional athlete would waste his time with this. I am fairly certain that many of the mega stars in this league would be very interested in playing with Melo and Rose. If this trade even marginally increases the probability that we get a LeBron, Durant, Batum, Whiteside this year than it is clearly worthwhile. It’s a risk, but not an unreasonable risk. Even Dwight for a 1 year deal (not tier 1 but serviceable and he might just think highly enough of himself to take one) would be fine with me. If we strikeout, we re-load and try for a pair of stars next year. We do this all without giving up more draft picks. That is a much clearer path to a championship then hoping that a #5 or #12 draft pick is going to take us to the promised land. There are going to be a lot of tier 1 FA’s taking 1 and 1 deals and the ability to add two max contracts next year to a core of KP and Melo is nothing to sniff at. KP+Melo+two tier 1 FA’s automatically competes for a championship — why would two stars not want to save the NYK and all the glory that comes with that. You all are just self loathing Knicks fans that can’t see the bigger picture. There is risk involved in this trade but you need to take that risk to have a shot at a championship — but the number 1 priority is maximizing the chance that we sign one tier 1 FA this year + one next year, or two tier 1 FA’s next year. For all you stat geeks out there, before being so certain of yourself, run the numbers on how much excess value a tier 1 FA on a max contract delivers as opposed to an average #6 draft pick on a rookie contract.

    Please, one of the trade haters please respond to the points I am making here with something other than your clairvoyance around what the tier 1 FA’s are thinking (I’m not claiming I know with certainty, just that there is some non-trivial probability which on an risk adjusted basis given the reward makes this trade worthwhile).

  4. Isn’t the “convincing elite free agents to come here” logic exactly what caused us to essentially gut our team with the Melo trade and Amare signing after Lebron spurned us? Which is exactly what we did again, in a misguided bid to woo Kevin Durant?

    And we won’t even be contenders if we signed Kevin Durant, because Rose has been bad enough that he could neutralize many of the wins that would be generated by one of the best players in the league. That’s how bad Rose is. And KD would only sign here 1. If he thought Rose was still a good player and 2. If he thought that Rose was going to be resigned after his contract expires. In which case we’d have a terrible Derrick Rose signed to a mega max deal, essentially neutralizing Kevin fucking Durant.

    Two stars arent coming here when we accidentally tank because Derrick Rose or his backup are playing 3000 minutes. The only things that could persuade FAs to come here next year are Whiteside or Durant being here, and why would they be stupid enough to come here?

    The trade is only a success on the supposition that *numerous* bad bets break in our favor. It’s betting on a 2-7 offsuit.

  5. What if Phil is really taking a flyer on Rose because he’s going to be playing for his next contract this year? If Rose goes nuts the first half of the season maybe Phil sends him to a contender for a couple first rounders and some expirings or a couple young assets. Who know, that may be what he was thinking. Look like you’re pursuing Durant, but actually trying to set up a bigger set of dominos to fall.

  6. because Rose has been bad enough that he could neutralize many of the wins that would be generated by one of the best players in the league.

    That’s how bad Rose is.

    These two statements are not the same thing.
    Has been bad is not the same as will be forever.

    Yes, your past may predict your future. But if there are extenuating circumstances then the past may not be relevant.

    The whole argument really centers on how one values Robin Lopez. There is no universe in which anyone would think Calderon is an asset, and similarly, any reasonable person would probably predict that Jerian Grant’s ceiling is ok backup PG.

    So, if you think RoLo’s an above average center that can be a starting center on a contender, and could bring anything more than a late late 1st round pick in trade, then yes, this was a bad gamble. If you don’t think so, then I would argue that it is at best a good risk, at worst really an irrelevant risk. I can see the arguments for both sides. It certainly isn’t DEFINITELY one or the other. I tend toward thinking he’s not as valuable around the league as most here think he is.

    By the way, another good outcome could be that Rose plays ok, the Knicks look respectable and contend for a playoff berth, KP gets experience playing in meaningful games late in the season and playoffs, and Hornacek’s system looks like a winning system. Then you go to Westbrook/CP3/Durant or whoever next summer and say look – this team could REALLY take off if one or two of you guys come.

    2016-17 Rose is not a binary outcome. He won’t necessarily either be awful or get a max contract. He’ll probably be somewhere in the middle.

    The trade is only a success on the supposition that *numerous* bad bets break in our favor. It’s betting on a 2-7 offsuit.

    what were our hole cards without this trade? 5-J offsuit?

  7. Anyone think it strange we haven’t heard anything from Melo or KP about the trade? I imagine Melo a week ago, while polishing his watches, recalling the time he dodged a bullet by avoiding teaming up a with a wilted Rose and failing Noah. And now the 2 of them are about to show up on the Knicks? Hilarious! Of course, Melo wanted Rondo so maybe he’s ecstatic about that prospect. Regarding KP, he’s a smart guy and is no doubt thinking: Huh? Wut? WTF? and cursing in Latvian.

  8. But you’re forgetting that the Amar’e signing is what made Carmelo Anthony want to come here and that’s what made Tyson Chandler want to come here and that would have made CP3 want New York if we had the balls to amnesty Amar’e instead of Billups that fall. Revisionist history is a hell of a drug.

    The D Rose trade is what makes KD consider New York. Berman is saying PJax is more interested in splitting the $30M between Noah and a shooting guard (clearly Kent Bazemore) than KD, though. Either move would improve the Knicks greatly and it can definitely be argued that Rose and Melo (and money) are big reasons why anybody wants to sign here this summer.

  9. Honestly, if Rose can even play league average on offense (big if), and we sign Bazemore and Noah, this team could be pretty good next year (health permitting, another big if). Willie H, KOQ, re-signed Lance Thomas, re-signed Galloway. It’s not that bad. Certainly more entertaining.

    And btw – again health permitting — Joakim Noah is a better basketball player than Robin Lopez. yes his shooting has fallen off a cliff, but he’s a FAR superior defender both around the basket and switching onto smalls, rebounds better, rim-protects better, plays team D better, can act as a hub on offense in terms of passing from the post, and is just plain faster in transition on both sides of the ball. And he has always been a great locker room guy / leader — something Melo has always needed to play his best.

    I’d be 100% in favor of signing him….depending on the contract. 1-2 years I’d be ok with. 3 years would be too much.

  10. That’s true! We could have gotten Rondo instead, so this is a relative win!

    Best case scenario, Rose plays pretty well and Rubio has a severe arm break so we swap and still manage to tank while acquiring a good PG (Wolves making a big push). More likely scenario is Rose sucks and we stealth tank for a pick, hopefully while trying out all manner of low-risk/high-reward guys who we’ll need in 2017 even with our extra cap space to fill out the roster. Which is totally fine, and is not a bad idea at all provided there is zero chance we re-sign Rose unless he ends up league MVP (hahaha). I really hope that’s the idea behind this trade and Phil’s central problem is that he’s not allowed to not go for ‘win now,’ so he’s doing it in the way most likely to bring us useful results. Not ideal, but not horrible.

    Worst case scenario is that we’re just good enough to be in the running and KP gets injured so we trade him for Manu to make a push ourselves.

  11. Ron Baker is what would happen if you ignored Dirk’s dry clean only tag. I really like him as a player, though I worry that his lack of quickness and explosiveness as a guard will mitigate some of his strength like great length, decent handle (left and right)and great general basketball smarts. Seems like as reasonable a Longshot to bring in as any, though you always hope to see more of a team option component with this kind of undrafted contract.

  12. Sorry, I still don’t think this trade has much to do with Rose’s ability to bounce back to being decent again, or if he can get Durant to sign here. Those are possibilities, but both long shots. If one or both does happen, that’s just a happy coincidence. It is smoke and mirrors, Knicks PR being promoted by guys like Hahn. Maybe it’ll work, maybe not.

    This is about cap space for 2017. As of right now, the Knicks, if they want, can sign a max guy this year AND next year.

    Both sides of the trade argument are speculating about things that nobody knows. One side speculates that Rose (given his 2nd half last year) is back, etc. Puts the Knicks back on the map, etc. The other side assumes that the Knicks could, any time they want, get a much better return for Lopez. Sorry, but you guys on both sides have no clue about that and are just guessing.

    The silliest stuff recently was pining for Calderon. He’s garbage and good to be gone. I look at the trade as Lopez and Grant for Rose and Justin Holiday. Calderon was dealt for a 2nd rounder in potentially a very good draft next year.

    Why I still don’t like the trade is that 2 nice, likable guys were dealt. Lopez is likable and productive on a good deal (at least for the Knicks…maybe the rest of the league is not nearly as impressed by him); he’s a nice pairing for KP, even if just for another year. Grant played well late last year and still has some upside. Rose is, at best, a sourpuss, and at worst a vain jerk.

    The trade seems to me like a big step sidewise (maybe back) at best in developing a likable team gradually being built. Yes, the trade might pay off big. But why not just sign one nice wing this year and then add some 1 years guys to fill out the roster? Do that properly and the Knicks could still have room for a max next year with Melo, KP, Lopez, Grant, and the wing signed in 2016 going forward

  13. any reasonable person would probably predict that Jerian Grant’s ceiling is ok backup PG.

    Call me unreasonable but I think he will be at least an average starter in the mold of Reggie Jackson and Teague. I think the stats since the all-star break and the last 6 games when he started and played starter minutes without KP and Melo against some good teams provide some support for that. And the fact he was playing in a terrible system last in the league in PnRs also impacted his performance last season. He’s wasn’t a bad shooter in college and his practice video where he was knocking down 3s like KP in his video suggests a floor for his shooting much higher than what we saw this season. It’s fine if people disagree but I don’t know how anyone could argue that it wasn’t worth giving him a real chance this season with a better coach and better offense.

    Regarding Lopez, we could just keep him, not trade him. Did GSW not benefit from a Bogut/Dray platoon at the 5? Did OKC not benefit from an Ibaka/Adams platoon at the 5? 13m salary on a 110m cap is nothing; that would be the average salary for an 8-man rotation. We should have been shooting for this team next summer: Westbrook/Melo/KP/Lopez/SG?/Grant/Gallo/Lance/Willy.

    Rose is one more knee injury away from being toast. If we’re lucky, that will happen this season before we sign him to a large 4 or 5 year deal. In fact, I will make the bold statement that I don’t know how any reasonable person could conclude this trade wasn’t worse than the Bargs deal.

  14. Regarding Lopez, we could just keep him, not trade him. Did GSW not benefit from a Bogut/Dray platoon at the 5? Did OKC not benefit from an Ibaka/Adams platoon at the 5?

    I’ve gone on record saying I did not want to trade Lopez.

    That said, all 4 of the players you mentioned are much better players than Lopez, except possibly Bogut, who despite not having much of a personal offensive game is still a MUCH better passer, rebounder, and rim protector than Lopez, while probably also being equal at the “little things” like setting screens, boxing out, etc. So sure, both GS and OKC benefited from having amazing basketball players.

  15. “Isn’t the “convincing elite free agents to come here” logic exactly what caused us to essentially gut our team with the Melo trade and Amare signing after Lebron spurned us? Which is exactly what we did again, in a misguided bid to woo Kevin Durant?”

    THIS IS NOT THE SAME KIND OF MOVE AT ALL! PLEASE STOP COMPARING THEM!!!

    Those moves ate up cap space and were long term albatrosses. This move frees up cap space, rids us of a short term contract that no one wanted, and essentially traded Jerian for a guy with a WS48 0f .100 and a 2nd round pick that could be very valuable if Chicago tanks.

    Derrick Rose had an awful year statistically last year. However, he had a very good year in terms of recovering from his injury, with no setbacks in 2000+ minutes. Some guys continue to recover until they regain most of their games, some don’t. It’s an very low risk, very low cost gamble.

    We now have OODLES OF PRESENT AND FUTURE CAP SPACE and ALL OF OUR FUTURE FIRST ROUND PICKS!!!

    I get that people hate the trade, but to compare it to any of the situations we were in with Melo, Amare, Eddy Curry, Steph, etc., etc. is totally ludicrous. Over RoLo and Grant??? Please!

  16. The Bargs deal made the Knicks worse off then they were before the deal while giving another team the future benefit of the Knicks being bad. The Rose deal makes the Knicks worse right now, but we are in better shape cap wise and have our pick if we suck. That’s why it’s not a Bargs/Curry class deal. I think it’s really more like a Tyson type deal. It’s not good, but it’s not terrible.

  17. i do know that if we sign noah that we are essentially pseudo tanking…. we’re going to be in for a very bad year and my hope is that this is part of the plan to land in the lottery without getting killed by the fans who think these guys are worthy gambles….

  18. Bring on Noah and Bazemore. Apparently the only injury Noah was suffering from all last season was a shoulder injury, and he had surgery and is now 100% recovered from it. I remember (and will never forget/forgive) when KG pulled Melo’s shoulder out of socket and Melo hasn’t had shoulder problems since. I think people’s issues with Noah come with his health (fair) and the fact that he played for Thibodeaux (not so fair). Now unless KP, Melo, and a guy like Bazemore post career bests in shooting efficiency, our offense is going to be terrible next year with Rose and Noah. We’ll be improved though. Say we win 45 games next year with Noah, Baze, KP, Galloway, and Melo giving you 40 of those 45. If Noah/Baze are locked in then we’ll have a shot at adding CP3 next summer with our 1st round pick and if KP/Baker/Galloway improve in that season, we’ll be scary.

    Does the Rose trade suck? Absolutely. It also doesn’t affect our long term stability, so that limits how much it actually sucks.

    And Marvelle Harris will be playing for our summer league team.

  19. After the morning I’ve had so far, I need to see these memes and chuckle a bit. I think I’m gonna hafta make that Office Space one my profile pic somewhere lol

  20. Looks like Marvelle Harris is going to play summer league for us. 6’4″ tall, 6’7.5″ wingspan, combo guard. All-defense x 2 years in his (second-tier) conference. ~22p/5a/5r/2.4 steals per 40.
    Middling efficiency. Not great shooter.

  21. noah is almost never healthy… he’s had 3 seasons where he’s come close to playing a full season… he’s 30 and he’s posted back to back seasons of sharp declines….

  22. The Bargs deal made the Knicks worse off then they were before the deal while giving another team the future benefit of the Knicks being bad. The Rose deal makes the Knicks worse right now, but we are in better shape cap wise and have our pick if we suck. That’s why it’s not a Bargs/Curry class deal. I think it’s really more like a Tyson type deal. It’s not good, but it’s not terrible.

    I believe we were over the cap when we made the Bargs deal so it did not affect our salary situation except maybe the mle and room exception. We gave up 2 seconds and a projected #20 pick. Would we have acquired any kind of difference maker for a #20 pick? If we had protected the pick, the Bargs deal would have been a footnote in Knick history. As it’s turned out, the Bargs deal cost us 2 2nds and a #9pick in a weak draft. Lopez and Grant are worth more than that. Look at it this way: Lopez + Grant > Shump. The Rose deal was worse.

  23. I believe we were over the cap when we made the Bargs deal so it did not affect our salary situation except maybe the mle and room exception. We gave up 2 seconds and a projected #20 pick. Would we have acquired any kind of difference maker for a #20 pick? If we had protected the pick, the Bargs deal would have been a footnote in Knick history. As it’s turned out, the Bargs deal cost us 2 2nds and a #9pick in a weak draft. Lopez and Grant are worth more than that. Look at it this way: Lopez + Grant > Shump. The Rose deal was worse.

    WUT

  24. I believe we were over the cap when we made the Bargs deal so it did not affect our salary situation except maybe the mle and room exception. We gave up 2 seconds and a projected #20 pick. Would we have acquired any kind of difference maker for a #20 pick? If we had protected the pick, the Bargs deal would have been a footnote in Knick history. As it’s turned out, the Bargs deal cost us 2 2nds and a #9pick in a weak draft. Lopez and Grant are worth more than that. Look at it this way: Lopez + Grant > Shump. The Rose deal was worse.

    To quote Jowles: lol

  25. The Bargs deal made the Knicks worse off then they were before the deal while giving another team the future benefit of the Knicks being bad. The Rose deal makes the Knicks worse right now, but we are in better shape cap wise and have our pick if we suck. That’s why it’s not a Bargs/Curry class deal. I think it’s really more like a Tyson type deal. It’s not good, but it’s not terrible.

    Pretty much this. But I think it’s worse if only for the fact that it reveals how little of an idea Phil Jackson has about constructing a winning basketball team, or about getting value for assets, or about opportunity cost.

  26. There are a lot more moves to be made between now and the start of the season, but in this snapshot of time I’d be willing to take a price and bet that the 76ers finish ahead of the Knicks next year. I’d say the chances of that happening have to be at least 15%-20%.

    The Knicks are a worse team in this snapshot in time than they were last year. They clearly gave away more wins than they got back with Rose (unless he stuns us with a form reversal and fairly healthy year). So they are going to have to add wins in free agency just to get bank to where they were. The only other upside I see is KP.

    The Sixers have a boatload of young players that are going to improve and they just added the kind of ball handler and playmaker they need. If they add a couple veterans with experience they can make a significant leap forward.

    The Knicks could be battling for the bottom with the Nets and Sixers next year unless this FA period is very productive, KP explodes forward, or Rose shocks the world. There is a bright side. Rose is going to cause a lot of hype. The Knicks may be overrated in the season wins betting. Could be an easy Under bet.

  27. @ 10 “And btw – again health permitting — Joakim Noah is a better basketball player than Robin Lopez. yes his shooting has fallen off a cliff, but he’s a FAR superior defender both around the basket and switching onto smalls, rebounds better, rim-protects better, plays team D better, can act as a hub on offense in terms of passing from the post, and is just plain faster in transition on both sides of the ball”

    Just because you say it doesn’t make it true. He’s on the wrong side of 30. He’s been run to the ground by Thibs. Noah has been shot for the last 2 years now. Lopez is better at everything except passing and rebounding (though they’re closer than you think). You’re remembering 2014 Noah. He doesn’t exist anymore.

    http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/rim-protection/
    http://www.blogabull.com/2015/4/8/8367049/joakim-noahs-season-of-decline

  28. This trade is galling to me on many levels but the worst thing about it is that it removes all doubt about Phil Jackson. He’s not a good GM. He makes the same kind of mistakes his ridiculously bad predecessors made. The fact that we’re debating whether or not this is worse than the Bargs trade, or that we’re giving Phil credit because this trade wasn’t as bad as the Curry trade, or we’re damning him with faint praise of “at least he didn’t trade away a first round pick” speaks for itself. He’s not a proper NBA general manager.

    We’re sitting here looking for silver linings to this, and the best we can come up with is that Rose will be gone in a year if he stinks, so the trade is not that damaging. This is not what the fans of properly functioning NBA teams have to do. Legitimate NBA teams make moves that actually IMPROVE their teams. The Knicks just spent the last two days falling behind the rest of the NBA, because of bad decisions in the past and bad decisions in the present.

  29. The Knicks could be a 50+ win team next year and people are comparing them to the Sixers and nets. Amazing.

    You got Melo a year removed from surgery plus Olympic time. You got year two of the Porzingod. You have a penatrating guard for the first time in years. Depending on the FA signed we could have some shooters and defenders.

    Im gonna be in full Jowles mode this upcoming season.

  30. The fact that we’re debating whether or not this is worse than the Bargs trade,

    Uh this was a choice by the negative nancies. Those trades aren’t remotely similar

  31. The problem with this trade and this strategy of “going for it”, is that it dismisses the concept of trying to methodically and organically put a team together. We finally have a young, prospect with great upside in Zinger to build around, but he has only been in the league a year and needs much more development as does the team around him. Rather than try to bring in players of a similar age and upside to develop along with him, Phil blows things up and trades away two valuable assets for an injury riddled vet, on the downside. Shouldn’t we be surrounding and developing Zinger with similar younger players he can develop with? I have heard this said many times before, that NY is a town that won’t tolerate a rebuild. Based upon the reaction of some people I think this is very true for some fans. If you think a player like Rose really still has something left in the tank, it makes sense to bring in a $21 million player to get a championship. That is not the Knicks, who are multiple pieces away from just making the playoffs. So why make this trade. I think Phil summed it up in his statement about this trade when he said,

    “We’ve talked about that a little bit. ‘Are we moving fast enough to accomplish goals that you have for yourself and your career?’ Melo and I have talked about that: whether we’re on the right time frame with him, is he disappointed or whatever? I think this is a positive move,” Jackson said. “He sees that as a positive move. I think that’s reinvigorating for him. I think it’s good.”

    That says it all. This trade was to “reinvigorate” Melo. Does that sound like the way to build a championship team? The formula for going for declining, overpaid stars has been tried and failed by this organization so many times. I thought Phil was truly on to something before this trade, but this Rose move is just another mistake. What’s that saying, “those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat…

  32. Uh this was a choice by the negative nancies.

    The “negative nancies” are also known as “the people who are always fucking right about everything.”

    The Knicks’ W-L record over the last decade and a half vindicates them (us).

  33. The “negative nancies” are also known as “the people who are always fucking right about everything.”

    No you were wrong as hell about 2012. So false. Try again

  34. Phil blows things up and trades away two valuable assets f

    Jerian Grant = “valuable asset”

    Quote by Knicks fan

    Unbelievable

    Nova…I get what you are saying, but this trade does not stop the Knicks from building organically. The problem is that you are downplaying Melo. You can try to win and build at the same time if you do it right. And this was a great step in that direction

  35. Just because everyone dislikes the trade, doesn’t make it as bad as the horrendous trades we’ve made (Bargs, Amare, etc)

    We have to gauge all moves with the upside/downside view for when our only hope for competitiveness, KP, is at his peak. With that in mind, does the D. Rose trade give you any upside for that time?

    A. Is he going to be a good player in 2-3 years? Probably not. Then again, he may not be on the team.

    B. Was Robin Lopez going to be a good player in 2-3 years? Probably. I liked him, liked his ethic, and his personality, and his contract.

    C. Was Jerian Grant going to be a good player in 2-3 years? Probably not, but if he becomes a solid rotation player, I’ll be very upset.

    D. Will Holiday and the 2nd rd pick become good players in 2-3 years? This is the kind of move we should make, regardless of whether they pan out.

    E. Are we using the cap space this summer and next summer for good players for 2-3 years from now? I don’t know, and this is what will make or break this trade for me.

    If we sign Noah/Gasol to longer-term contracts (who will not be good players 2-3 years from now) then this is a myopic and bad trade to “win now” with Melo. And then I will be very much against this trade. If we end up with at least Kent Bazemore or short term contracts then I will only slightly hate this trade.

  36. I’m going Jowles. All the I told you so is coming from me. I’m just warning everyone now.

  37. No you were wrong as hell about 2012. So false. Try again

    I predicted 54 wins that season and ruruland has written several dissertations about how my predictions were inaccurate because they hinged on Ronnie Brewer and Jason Kidd more than Carmelo.

    Since I started my predictions I’ve never been wrong. Barring some insane FA signing like Whitehead or some Durant-like leap from below-average to superstar from Porzingis, you are looking at a bottom-3 team in the NBA next year. It’s going to be glorious.

  38. Yeah Jowels Ronnie brewer……

    Anyway. I’m gonna try and figure out what I’m gonna change my name to for next year. Maybe DRose for Prez

  39. I understand the defense of the trade that it gives us a ton of cap space and roster flexibility. It makes sense. Cap space has been a very valuable asset in the past, but this year and next are completely different. Everyone has cap space! It’s not a rare commodity for these next two summers. We are picking the most competitive free agency period since the implementation of the salary cap to build our team through free agency. How can people not see this is an incredibly risky and poorly thought out strategy?

  40. i really really hope we crash and burn so we get a top 5 pick and melo waives his NTC. Cronin says hes never leaving, but if we’re that much of a dumpster fire I think he will.

    The only way we can ever become a good, sustainable organization is by accidentally failing upwards–not even purposefully failing upwards like the 76’ers. The only thing that will make me hope for wins next season is a Whiteside or Durant signing. Bring on the fail.

  41. @ 41 – er – I disagree with you about Grant and think he was an asset. He showed promise at the end of the year when given a chance. More importantly, this was his rookie season, I think most of us would agree that he had room to grow. How much growth is certainly debatable, but now we will never know. He certainly showed skills (maybe not a great shot), but who knows with time and coaching. The reality is that this is just another example of the lack of patience displayed by this organization. How about an emphasis on coaching and development rather than going for the retreads.

  42. No you were wrong as hell about 2012. So false. Try again

    The Tyson Chandler trade was a big hit among the “negative nancies,” and the very same nancies were generally quite bullish about the 2011-2012 season. And then were not so bullish about the 2012-2013 season. Or any season since. So, you know.

  43. How can people not see this is an incredibly risky and poorly thought out strategy?

    I dunno… 11 rings????? Ever heard of it????????

  44. @47 As I stated in an earlier thread I think that is all we can logically hope for at this point. Failure this season leads to a high draft pick, Phil and Melo likely gone, as well as no chance of resigning Rose. Wins all around!

  45. I dunno… 11 rings????? Ever heard of it????????

    Hey, that’s 13 ringzz, because you have to count ringzz that guys won as a player 45 years ago when you evaluate them as a GM

  46. “We’re sitting here looking for silver linings to this, and the best we can come up with is that Rose will be gone in a year if he stinks, so the trade is not that damaging. This is not what the fans of properly functioning NBA teams have to do. Legitimate NBA teams make moves that actually IMPROVE their teams. The Knicks just spent the last two days falling behind the rest of the NBA, because of bad decisions in the past and bad decisions in the present.”

    Unless Rose plays like the best PG we’ve had since, I dunno, Derek Harper?

    The quality of this deal hinges on whether Rose plays well. You are convinced that Rose is a totally shot shell of what he once was (and/or was overrated even when he was “great.”) Phil and his team obviously feel that Rose has a lot left and will play somewhere between pretty well and awesome. You think we could have gotten Rose for less, or could have traded Lopez and Grant for more/better assets. Phil and his team think that dealing for Rose now (and also saving $3 mill of cap space on a trade kicker by doing it before it kicked in) was a low-cost, low-risk gamble on a former MVP at age 27 who logged 2000+ injury-free minutes in his first full season back after three years of horrible injury luck. I know you and the guys here are probably genius material compared to Phil Jackson, but for the time being, I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt. And even if Rose gets injured during preseason and never plays a game, As Knicks fan, I am absolutely thrilled that we have a) the most promising draft pick since Ewing (thanks Phil! Who’d you want again, JK?), b) two years of max cap room in a row, c) all of our future #1 picks and 4) no albatross contracts (I really don’t mind Melo’s current salary.)

  47. Can someone explain the DeJounte Murray hype? Did he just fall far below his projected slot?

  48. @46, it’s not just cap space, but how much. Obviously this offseason isn’t over yet, but if they stay flexible and can get two max contracts under the cap next year, it’s a better situation than most teams out there.

    I really don’t trust Phil to make all the right moves should they get to that point, but at least for now the possibility remains.

  49. The “negative nancies” are also known as “the people who are always fucking right about everything.”

    Yes. In exactly the same way as a broken clock!

  50. Phil and his team obviously feel that Rose has a lot left and will play somewhere between pretty well and awesome. You think we could have gotten Rose for less, or could have traded Lopez and Grant for more/better assets. Phil and his team think that dealing for Rose now (and also saving $3 mill of cap space on a trade kicker by doing it before it kicked in) was a low-cost, low-risk gamble on a former MVP at age 27 who logged 2000+ injury-free minutes in his first full season back after three years of horrible injury luck.

    1) They may “feel” that, but it doesn’t take a PhD in Basketballatology to know that feeling doesn’t mean shit compared to the numbers. He’s washed up.

    2) I don’t know if the Knicks could have gotten him for less. I do think that they could have gotten more for their above-average C on a cap-friendly deal. The point is this: there’s no circumstance in which you’d want 2015-16 Derrick Rose on your team unless you are doing a full-on tank. Why would you take him in 2016-17? Because he’s further away from his multiple season-ending, career-threatening injuries? Makes no sense at all. And then if he gets pointzzzzz and thrusts himself back into the national spotlight at a 50% TS, what happens? They give him a mega-max with a NTC? Awesome!

    3) Trading away your solid, starting C to position yourself to compete with like 25 other eligible teams for the same pool of 3 or 4 true max-contract superstars is more insanity. It makes absolutely no sense. Is this as bad as the Bargnani trade? No, but there’s a reason that the comparisons are drawn. This is yet another washed-up, overrated (even in his prime) player masquerading as an asset.

    4) The fact that we’re talking about his expiring contract as a virtue of the trade independent of the cap situation should indicate that this is a horrible trade.

  51. If we end up with, say, Gasol/Noah on a one year, plus a long term on Bazemore, in addition to resigning Lance and D Will, in addition to signing Hernangomez plus Ron Baker, I think this may even be a successful offseason, even if Rose craps out (low risk/high reward).

  52. How much of an impact will D. Rose make this year? What is the difference in wins between Rose or keeping Lopez, Grant and Calderon? I think not much. Then you just jettisoned assets for no return and no appreciable change in your playoff outlook and more importantly no long term strategy. Let’s say though that he returns to better than average, how much do you really want to invest in a player like Rose with his injury history. Essentially we gave up good assets for a one year rental and not much of a change in our playoff outlook, unless you think Rose changes things greatly and we are now headed deep into the playoffs. I’ll have to get out my rose colored glasses to get that vision.

  53. Just take a look at this:
    http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/241166/The-Maximum-Available-2016-Cap-Space-For-All-30-NBA-Teams-Version-20

    There are only 4 teams that have less than $20mil in cap space this year. How many max contract players are out there? You think we have a good chance at getting any when we’re up against the 26 other teams? The cap is projected to go up another $15mil next year, too, with a stronger free agent class. I wouldn’t expect many fewer teams to have room for max contracts in that summer. The free agent market will be the most competitive it has ever been these next two summers, and our strategy is to ditch decent players under contract for cap space. It’s idiotic.

  54. Kevin, your take in @47 is very jaded. Not everyone will have “max” cap space. And some will need to use lots of that space to retain their star players, or even key role players. It’s still important. It also means that more players will look to leave their teams, since they will have more options. Furthermore, it greatly facilitates trades. Finally, it makes you a landing spot for salary dumps.

    We have one “star” on a max deal that is not cap-killing. We have an ex-star on a $21 million one year flier. We have a potential HOFer on a rookie deal. We have a back-up C on a $4 mill for 3 year deal. The rest of the roster is totally flexible…we don’t even know what 2/5 of the starting lineup will be opening day. If we totally suck this year, GREAT!!! #1 pick, baby!

  55. Yes. In exactly the same way as a broken clock!

    Truly you can’t believe that this side of the Knickerblogger debate is that lucky for that many consecutive years.

    Like, maybe it’s important to sign players that can shoot, rebound, not turn the ball over and defend. That’s all we’ve ever said, and we tend to roast decisions that bring players who are not just bad but terrible at those things.

  56. Essentially we gave up good assets for a one year rental and not much of a change in our playoff outlook, unless you think Rose changes things greatly and we are now headed deep into the playoffs.

    According to WP, the Knicks gave up 15-ish wins against replacements and took on a player who contributed almost negative 3 wins against replacement to his team. The Knicks will obviously replace Lopez with a center who is probably not fully and completely awful, so it’s not going to be an 18-win change (unless Rose’s backup is as bad as he is and Kyle O’Quinn is asked to play center full-time).

  57. Anyway. I’m gonna try and figure out what I’m gonna change my name to for next year. Maybe DRose for Prez

    JR has already announced his candidacy. Can DRose be his running mate (wait…dude can’t run….2 bad knees)

  58. Yes. In exactly the same way as a broken clock!

    You know what the Knicks’ record is over the last 15 years? It’s 497-717. That’s a .409 winning percentage, which translates to about 33.5 wins per year. Which means last year’s 32-50 team was a pretty standard Knicks team. Betting on the Knicks to suck is one of the safer bets in sports.

  59. Market down 500 pts in reaction to the lopez trade

    Best line of the year.

    Call me unreasonable but I think he will be at least an average starter in the mold of Reggie Jackson and Teague…Rose is one more knee injury away from being toast. If we’re lucky, that will happen this season before we sign him to a large 4 or 5 year deal. In fact, I will make the bold statement that I don’t know how any reasonable person could conclude this trade wasn’t worse than the Bargs deal.

    This makes less than zero sense. First you say Rose will be a more than average starting point guard, which would mean that he would be less overpaid this year than Calderon. Then you try to make the point that the Knicks will have to re-sign him to a stupid contract and that is why it is a bad trade. That is not true — while it would be a Knicksy thing to do, they don’t have to do it. In fact, on the surface it would appear the main point of this trade is to have the room to sign two max Tier 1 FA’s. Aside from the 0-2 of 30 draft picks a year that are instantly great on rookie contracts, there is nothing more valuable than a Tier 1 FA on a max contract (this is because the top 20-30 non-rookie scale players deliver value well in excess of a max contract). Lopez on his contract is a nice building block but not going to massively outperform his contract like a Tier 1 FA can. Neither is Grant. Last year there was a chance, but clear now he is not a massive outperformance option.

  60. for those still harping on rose returning anything close to mvp form… i would like to remind you that when rose won mvp … carmelo just got traded to the knicks…. andrew bynum was an all star… and steve jobs was still alive…

    anchoring is a common cognitive bias… and the notion that rose ever becoming his former self is just that.. it’s as likely as jobs returning from the dead… so any talk of him returning to form is just making yourself sound crazy….

  61. The point is this: there’s no circumstance in which you’d want 2015-16 Derrick Rose on your team unless you are doing a full-on tank. Why would you take him in 2016-17? Because he’s further away from his multiple season-ending, career-threatening injuries? Makes no sense at all.

    Actually, that makes perfect sense. It’s called healing. That “healing” thing takes time, which means the further you are from the injury/surgery, the better. This is why players are better 2 weeks, 2 months, and 2 years after surgery than they were 2 days after surgery.

    Look, I feel like somehow I have turned into a defender of this deal. For the record, I don’t really like it from a basketball standpoint (although I am morbidly fascinated by it from a pure entertainment angle — seriously, this is as heated a set of threads as we’ve had since the Melo trade). But I just don’t think it’s that bad.

    That said – if we go out and sign Noah or Dwight Howard to a 3 or 4 year contract, then this whole thing is awful.

  62. No one is suggesting that Rose will become his “former self,” only that he can play like a solid starting PG on a team that hasn’t had anything close to one in decades.

  63. What’s the more likely scenario, based on the way Phil Jackson has operated as GM so far?

    1. This is a “win-now” move, and Phil thinks Derrick Rose makes the Knicks a contender, and should be surrounded with other aging vets so the Knicks can make a title run, or
    2. This is a three-dimensional chess move, where Phil knows Rose will be terrible, so it’s like a stealth tank move meant to bring the Knicks a high lottery pick in 2017 to go along with boffo free agent signings

    All signs point to #1. I expect Phil’s next moves to reflect that.

  64. You know what the Knicks’ record is over the last 15 years? It’s 497-717. That’s a .409 winning percentage, which translates to about 33.5 wins per year. Which means last year’s 32-50 team was a pretty standard Knicks team. Betting on the Knicks to suck is one of the safer bets in sports.

    Exactly the point. It takes no intelligence or skill to just blurt out “The Knicks suck” no matter what happens.

    Perhaps a better comp is a weatherman. Just predict today’s weather tomorrow and you’ll be accurate most of the time.

    Maybe if the Knickerblogger Front Office could come up with one decent idea or plan, everything that was said over the years wouldn’t seem like pure garbage.

    Frank/Ruru and others may not always be right but at least they don’t sound like spoiled little brats all the damn time.

    Maybe the problem is illustrated in this youtube video?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHPfgsTVTjA

  65. So, you’re saying I should be optimistic, even in the face of decades of failure, and that if I’m not, I’m a spoiled millennial brat with a man bun living in my parents’ basement.

    Fuck you.

  66. This is all a waste of time. Either we’ll make smart moves with our cap space and this deal won’t suck, or we will make stupid moves with our cap space and this deal will suck. Smart = a) Tier 1 FA , b) anything not on a multi-year contract enabling us to have a shot at 2x Tier 1 FA’s in 2017, or c) (and this one makes me the most nervous because unlike a/b there is no way to guarantee you don’t get stuck with a lemon) value signings that are good enough to be flipped for assets while freeing up cap space for 2x Tier 1 FA’s in 2017. That is it. Absolute bottom line.

  67. Yogi Ferrell to the Nets for Summer League.

    We’re gonna be the worst professional basketball team in NY in 3-4 years, book it.

  68. @74 you completely missed the point then proceeded to act like a brat lol.

    @76 yep.. Because of yogi Ferrel being > KP

  69. Market down 500 pts in reaction to the lopez trade – Best line of the year.

    Dude named “goldclub” gave me credit for the best line of the year. That to me is worth more than Jerian Grant

  70. How about option 3: it’s a lateral move…our needs in the backcourt were greater than those in the frontcourt. Phil was never crazy about RoLo in the first place, and believes he can replace his production on the cheap, e.g. with Hernangomez. Phil doesn’t want to commit long-term max money to Conley, so Rose is a stopgap, letting Phil focus on available FAs w/o worrying about overpaying for a starting PG, or going with Calderon and Grant. Phil plans to fill out the roster with reasonable contracts like the one to RoLo, and can find some good assets in the bargain bin, like Lance Thomas and Galloway, unless a home run like Durant comes along. If Rose doesn’t pan out, go all 2014-15 and waive Rose…maybe Melo opts out or is open to a trade at the deadline…there are many options!

  71. So there’s this:

    Tim MacMahon
    ESPN Staff Writer

    A source not affiliated with Derrick Rose or the Knicks came away impressed with how lean and explosive the former All-Star point guard looked after seeing Rose work out recently in Los Angeles.

  72. One thing to keep in mind is that thee is a lot more talent coming in to the league than going out, and there is no talk of expansion. There are only 450 roster spots, and only 270-300 rotation spots. Lots of good players are going to be available when teams have to get down to that 15 number.

  73. Tim MacMahon
    ESPN Staff Writer

    A source not affiliated with Derrick Rose or the Knicks came away impressed with how lean and explosive the former All-Star point guard looked after seeing Rose work out recently in Los Angeles.

    Yi Jian-Lian was dominant against that chair too. We all know how that worked out.

    Seriously though everyone could probably take the rhetoric down a couple notches. Sometimes it’s useful to remember that not a single one of us has any actual influence on whether the Knicks play well next year. You like the trade, I hate it, whatever it doesn’t matter in the slightest. It’s like several degrees of separation removed from something that could conceivably matter. So maybe it doesn’t need to be quite as much verbal fisticuffs.

  74. Yi Jian-Lian was dominant against that chair too. We all know how that worked out.

    What a comparison.

  75. Even if Rose is more athletic next year it doesn’t matter. We’d just have to pay him.

  76. I can’t wait for this debate to carry theoughout the season, as Rose shoots 352-983 on FG attempts, but of those 352 makes, 3 of them are game winners and make the ESPN highlight reels.

    “He’s a clutch game winner!”

    “But what about the 79 games he didn’t win for us!”

    “How many game winning shots does Robin Lopez have this year?!”

    “The game wouldn’t have come down to the last shot if Rose hadn’t turned the ball over 8 times that game!”

    “Bargnani sucks!”

    There we go. I just Woj-Bombed the content of the entire 2017 knickerblogger game threads.

  77. the problem with filling out this roster exclusively through cap space is that we are almost definitely committing ALOT of dollars AND years to some marginal guys… i’m not going to crucify phil just yet since it remains to be seen what’s happening but luring gasol or noah or turner or courtney lee is most likely not going to happen on 1 yr deals and most likely at least 3 yr deals…

    that is going to turn out really bad… and if we’re forgoing all those names then we are scraping the bottom of the barrel on folks who probably shouldn’t be playing in the nba…. i will give all the credit in the world to phil if he can manage to put together a respectable team on short deals… i actually think that was probably the best move this summer if we were planning to move lopez…

    i am highly doubting that is going to be the case and i’m sure we are about to give out some horrible contracts this summer…

  78. What’s the more likely scenario, based on the way Phil Jackson has operated as GM so far?
    1. This is a “win-now” move, and Phil thinks Derrick Rose makes the Knicks a contender, and should be surrounded with other aging vets so the Knicks can make a title run, or
    2. This is a three-dimensional chess move, where Phil knows Rose will be terrible, so it’s like a stealth tank move meant to bring the Knicks a high lottery pick in 2017 to go along with boffo free agent signings
    All signs point to #1. I expect Phil’s next moves to reflect that.

    There are more scenarios than this.
    Such as:

    3. This is a likely short term move with internal upside on the 10% chance that Rose rediscovers his previous form, really meant to bring meaningful/entertaining ball to NYC and to KP, and to give Hornacek a PG whose style at least matches what he wants without having to max out Mike Conley. This move might also have “external” upside in that if the team plays well, then the real moves can be made next summer to get one of the true stars in the league to come.

    btw, why is this a worse strategy than Donnie Walsh’s brilliant 2010 trade of just-drafted 2009 #8 pick Jordan Hill, our unprotected 2012 first round pick, and Jared Jefferies for the corpse of Tracy McGrady (who was already 30 at that time with MUCH worse recent surgeries than Rose had)?

    In this trade we got a 27 year old former MVP on a 1-year flyer, we didn’t give up any draft picks, and we actually gained what will be a valuable 2017 2nd rounder.

    The Walsh trade was “justified” because we were clearing space for 2 max contracts including Lebron James.

    Next summer Westbrook, KD, CP3, Steph, and Lebron will all be UFAs. In other words – the top 5 players in the NBA will be unrestricted free agents next year. We’ll have room for 2 max contracts, with their buddy Carmelo and a developing unicorn in Kristaps in the fold.

    The problem was what again?

  79. What can be said about Derrick Rose’s knees that hasn’t already been said about Afghanistan?

  80. Aren’t we all so glad that we buried Jerian Grant on the bench behind Sasha Vucavic?

  81. It’s almost like we torpedoed his entire rookie season by subjecting him to Derek Fisher and Kurt Rambis

  82. Not necessarily, DRed. One thing is clear about Phil, he doesn’t get nearly as attached to people as most here thought. I mean, a month ago, most here had already signed Kurt Rambis to a 5-year head coaching contract. Six months ago, most thought Derek Fisher was here to stay. A year ago, Phil was going to screw up the draft by selecting Trey Lyles or Kaminsky or by trading down, then he f’d it up anyway anyway by selecting Porzingis over WCS and Mudiay. How many folks here were pining over just missing out on Okafor and Russell because of a couple of losses at the end of 2014-15?

    Tell me, where does Willy Hernangomez go in the 2016 draft? Top 10? Top 5?

  83. I think most reports indicated that he was valued as a mid first (15-20) if he were to be drafted this year instead of last.

    I can’t cite the sources off the top of my head though.

  84. wily hernangomez probably would’ve gone somewhere between where sabonis and deyonta davis went… or right around where his little brother did… he’s already 22 so he’s older than all of the int’l prospects that got drafted…

    top 5 is exaggerating things a bit…

  85. Jowles lifts his predictions from NBA Geek which uses a metric he doesn’t really understands, yet one he parrots more dogmatically than anything Pom-Pom waving fanbois say or use to justify their fandom.

    NBA GEEK is ok. It’s been hit and miss with the Knicks and every other team.

  86. Barring some insane FA signing like Whitehead or some Durant-like leap from below-average to superstar from Porzingis, you are looking at a bottom-3 team in the NBA next year. It’s going to be glorious.

    Unfortunately, I agree with you.

    Lopez added wins. As bad as Cadleron was on defense, even he added wins with efficient shot making and limited TOs. Rose has been a net negative for the last 3 years. The Knicks are probably 10 wins worse right now than they were before the Rose trade unless Rose finds some good form and can stay healthy (big if).

    If Phil made up his mind to trade Lopez because he knew he could upgrade the C position in free agency, then he should have traded Lopez for one or more pieces that actually added wins. If no PGs were available, then we should have suffered through another year of Calderon and Grant and pursued the PG next year (which is what we are going to wind up doing anyway when/if Rose breaks down).

    For example, let’s say Lopez was worth 8 wins.

    You trade him for a SG or solid bench pieces worth 8 wins. You sign Noah as an upgrade at C and maybe something else. Then you are better team than you were last year that needs a PG next year.

    As it is, we are worse. We need to sign good pieces just to get back to where we were.

  87. This move might also have “external” upside in that if the team plays well, then the real moves can be made next summer to get one of the true stars in the league to come….Westbrook, KD, CP3, Steph, and Lebron

    Why would Westbrook, CP3 or Curry join the Knicks if Rose (who plays their position) is playing really well and contributing to the success of the Knicks? KD is not gonna interview with 5 teams and then sign a 1n1 deal with OKC. He’ll be on GSW/Cavs/Spurs this season. Bron might be the most realistic pickup which tells you how silly this whole discussion is. If Bron and CP3 want to join Melo and KP in 2017, they’ll do it regardless of how Rose is playing.

  88. As it is, we are worse. We need to sign good pieces just to get back to where we were.

    I dont understand this line of thinking. This is a team that started Jose Calderon, Lance Thomas and Sasha Vuichic for most of last year. A few shooters and defenders and maybe Noah/Pau/D12 on a 1 year deal and this team is headed towards 45-50 wins.

  89. Willy is slightly less regarded than his younger brother. If you like, think of him as the 20-something pick we didn’t get for Lopez

  90. It’s happening…

    Ian Begley
    ESPN Staff Writer

    There are people in the Knicks organization who’d like to pursue Joakim Noah in free agency. And the interest seems to be mutual. People familiar with the situation say the Knicks are one team that Noah will be interested in in free agency. It will be key to find a contract that works for both sides, obviously. But Derrick Rose and Noah are close; Noah also has a good relationship with Carmelo Anthony. The Bulls center also grew up in New York and attended high school in Brooklyn. Also, for those interested in such things, Rose and Noah have been spotted in NYC together in the last 24 hours.

  91. Kendall Gill and Brandon Jennings have seen DRose workout and think he looks hella explosive.

    Sips tea

  92. NBA Geeks had Calderon as the Knicks best player last year, so if WP is the basis for predicting plus/minus wins on the trade I’m going to pass, as should everyone else.

    Penetration is not directly captured in the box score, but more advanced metrics are beginning to quantify its positive effect.

    Even if Rose shoots as poorly as he did last season, I don’t think he was worse than Calderon.

    Until the Knicks sign another front court player, it’s too early to judge the Lopez side of the deal.

    The Knicks were a pretty decent team with Melo on the floor last year, and there’s ample time to improve the roster from last year despite a horrendous misuse of a quality asset like Lopez.

  93. This trade is galling to me on many levels but the worst thing about it is that it removes all doubt about Phil Jackson. He’s not a good GM. He makes the same kind of mistakes his ridiculously bad predecessors made. The fact that we’re debating whether or not this is worse than the Bargs trade, or that we’re giving Phil credit because this trade wasn’t as bad as the Curry trade, or we’re damning him with faint praise of “at least he didn’t trade away a first round pick” speaks for itself. He’s not a proper NBA general manager.

    BINGO

  94. Why would Westbrook, CP3 or Curry join the Knicks if Rose (who plays their position) is playing really well and contributing to the success of the Knicks? KD is not gonna interview with 5 teams and then sign a 1n1 deal with OKC. He’ll be on GSW/Cavs/Spurs this season. Bron might be the most realistic pickup which tells you how silly this whole discussion is. If Bron and CP3 want to join Melo and KP in 2017, they’ll do it regardless of how Rose is playing.

    You wouldn’t re-sign Rose if one of those 3 were coming.

    I would be extremely surprised if KD goes to GS/Cavs/Spurs. He’ll get the post-Decision Lebron treatment if he does that.

    I think it’s reasonable to think the CP3 might come to NY. Steph will almost certainly stay in GS.

  95. Well it looks like Noah is getting a max offer from the Wiz….so there’s that

  96. That says it all. This trade was to “reinvigorate” Melo. Does that sound like the way to build a championship team? The formula for going for declining, overpaid stars has been tried and failed by this organization so many times. I thought Phil was truly on to something before this trade, but this Rose move is just another mistake. What’s that saying, “those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat…

    Agreed. Melo has held this team back long enough. He needs to be traded in a deal with the Clippers where we get their next 5 first round picks or something like that.

  97. He’s not a good GM. He makes the same kind of mistakes his ridiculously bad predecessors made.

    Yeah Phil traded all of those draft picks away……oh wait. GTFOH

  98. ruruland,

    Let’s set aside Wins Produced. Have you seen Rose’s on/off court stats from last year. Both the offense and defense were better with him off the court. That sort of confirms the fact that the boxscore says he sucked. This entire trade hinges on the possibility that he can recover better form this year, which in turn is based on a 20 game sample (+ or – a few games) in the 2nd half of the season last year. Let’s be really generous and say that 20 game sample matters and is very significant. What are the chances he breaks down anyway? 25%? 50%? more?

  99. Agreed. Melo has held this team back long enough.

    So a move that will help Melos game is holding the team back?!?

    Knick fan logic

  100. The formula for going for declining, overpaid stars has been tried and failed by this organization so many times

    See. This is what Darrell was talking about. This is not ” going for an overpaid star” it’s a 1 year flyer. It’s not a 5 year max deal.

    Smh

    Sips tea

  101. This entire trade hinges on the possibility that he can recover better form this year, which in turn is based on a 20 game sample (+ or – a few games) in the 2nd half of the season last year. Let’s be really generous and say that 20 game sample matters and is very significant. What are the chances he breaks down anyway? 25%? 50%? more?

    I don’t have any clue as to what the chances are. Maybe 25% if his minutes are managed correctly, which Hornacek is already sensitive to. Depends also on what “break down” means. 60 games? 40 games?

    The question does come back to a couple other questions:

    1) what’s the next move? short term Noah + long-term Bazemore is not bad. Long term Noah / Howard or something like that would be disastrous.

    2) what was the upside of this team if this trade never happened? Let’s be reasonable and not predict that Jerian Grant would turn into CP3. The upside on this team (given the free agent market) would probably have been Bazemore and another less significant signing. Then we would have gone into next offseason with less $ to spend. Less need also, I suppose, but it’s not clear that this strategy would ulitmately yield better results.

  102. Doesn’t Phil understand that the rebuilding plan should be around KP and not Melo?

  103. So a move that will help Melos game is holding the team back?!?

    Yeah, since Melo should be traded ASAP so we can get something of value for him before he loses his peak.

  104. Doesn’t Phil understand that the rebuilding plan should be around KP and not Melo?

    Is this plan inconsistent with developing KP?

    IMHO – developing KP is not just throwing the ball to him and letting him sink or swim on high usage around a bunch of other like-aged prospects. It’s supporting him with people around him that can help his growth. It’s letting him play in games that MATTER, so that he understands the intensity of late-season / playoff basketball and understands how hard you have to work to succeed. It’s not making him do things before he’s ready for it. He’s not ready for a USG% of 25. He’s not ready to play the 5 for 30 min/game. So let him be the 3rd option. Let him feast off the penetration of Rose, or on PNP with Rose and Melo. Let him play against 2nd team centers rather than dudes that will just want to beat him up.

    I don’t think this current plan detracts from his development at all. At all.

  105. Penetration is a means, not an end. Its a way to generate FTAs, high percentage shots at the rim or open shots for your shooters. Rose is a poor finisher, doesn’t pass well, and doesn’t generate FTAs anymore. If he’s got some explosion back he can hopefully generate more FTAs. I think that’s the best reasonable case for Rose, and it’s not that good

  106. just something to note, age of draft picks and udfa signings under phil:
    2014: thanasis (22) early (23) labeyrie (22) wear (23) galloway (22)
    2015: porzingis (20) hernangomez (21) wesley saunders (23) travis trice (22) grant (22)
    2016: baker (23) harris (22)

    aside from one clarence gaines visit to europe … we’re pretty infatuated with older prospects…

  107. Doesn’t Phil understand that the rebuilding plan should be around KP and not Melo?

    DRose is not necessarily a rebuilding piece. And even if he was he’s only 27. Also rose helps KP too. It’s like you people think that rebuilding can only include people like Jerian grant. You can walk and chew gum. Ron Baker could be a rebuilding piece. If Phil gets a young FA this or next year they are a long term piece too. Just cuz you got Derrick Rose doesn’t mean Phil is saying fuck KP, and it’s all about Melo. It’s not that.

    @115 Frank, you said it way more succinctly than I did. Thanks

  108. We signed Baker and Harris today and you guys are still arguing about the same crap? Wake up and smell the roses! Get it?

  109. Jose Calderon, at this stage of his career, is not really a good player. WP overstates his value. Fair enough. But he did provide something for the Knicks last year that they sorely needed: efficient scoring.

    The Knicks were 28th in the NBA in offensive eFG% last year. Not a good number. They had a .483 eFG%. This year they have kicked off the season by jettisoning Calderon and his .552 eFG% and Robin Lopez and his .539 eFG%. In fact, with the departure of Arron Afflalo and Derrick Williams, the Knicks have removed from the roster four of their top five eFG% guys from last year, with Lance Thomas the lone holdout. They have added Derrick Rose, he of the .448 eFG%.

    Where is the efficient scoring going to come from? The Knicks were 20th in the NBA in 3PT% last year. Subtract Jose Calderon’s three point shooting from last year and add in Derrick Rose’s and that sinks them from .346 as a team to .333, or 28th in the league in 3PT%. How’s it goink?

    The Knicks now have a huge hole at center AND they don’t have any perimeter shooting, and they have to fix all that with a couple of free agent moves. It’s going to be impossible. Team eFG% is likely to be a massive problem for this team next year.

  110. JK47 stop being a slave to stats. Calderon is not efficient. He passed up numerous open looks all year so that WORSE shooters could take WORSE shots. That’s the epitome of inefficiency.

    So spare me his numbers.

    Also the Knicks don’t have a hole at center. They have Oquinn and KP

  111. The Knicks now have a huge hole at center AND they don’t have any perimeter shooting, and they have to fix all that with a couple of free agent moves.

    You forgot to mention it’s a weak free agent market and everyone has a ton of cap space.

  112. “Yogi Ferrell to the Nets for Summer League.
    We’re gonna be the worst professional basketball team in NY in 3-4 years, book it.”
    Because Yogi Ferrell is playing for the Nets’ summer league team? That’s the move that tips things in their favor? On another note, I just saw one rumor that there is a “lot of noise” about Rondo joining the Nets…

  113. If we sign Noah or Pau, that is gonna be one creaky team. Let me update Kurylo’s banner “only an accountant could like” to “only a fee-for-service medical team could like.” Say what you want about Lopez and Grant, at least they’re able to stay on the court. I opposed the Calderon trade but I think he’d be fine as a backup 1 and playing off-the-ball this season.

  114. Lopez and Grant were two supplementary pieces we could have rebuilt for the future around.

    Rose will be gone in a year and he will hog the ball.

    I don’t see how this helps KP.

  115. lol sounds like Wiz might be planning to max Noah.
    That, my friends, is nutso.
    I’d rather start KOQ than max Noah.

  116. LOL. Phil got Rose to attract Durant, which isn’t happening. He’s not trying to build a core around his future stud.

  117. The player the Knicks acquired is not Derrick Rose, MVP. Not Derrick Rose, All-Star. Not even Derrick Rose, above-average point guard. Rose’s PER was below the league average last year. His true shooting % was the worst he’s ever had in a (mostly) full season. He can’t shoot. He can’t defend. He hasn’t been “Derrick Rose” since 2012. 2012! That means the Knicks have been good more recently than Derrick Rose.

  118. LOL. Phil got Rose to attract Durant, which isn’t happening. He’s not trying to build a core around his future stud.

    Good to know that you are fully aware of the inner workings of Phil’s mind.

  119. Why can’t the nabobs in here admit that Phil understands winning and talent more than you do when it comes to basketball? Please show your resume if you disagree.

  120. Why can’t the nabobs in here admit that Phil understands winning and talent more than you do when it comes to basketball? Please show your resume if you disagree.

    By this logic, there is no such thing as a bad NBA GM. Isiah Thomas has a more accomplished basketball resume than me, so therefore he must be good.

  121. I’m not an actor or a director either, but I can say without a doubt that Tommy Wiseau sucks at directing and acting.

  122. Why can’t the nabobs in here admit that Phil understands winning and talent more than you do when it comes to basketball? Please show your resume if you disagree.

    It’s not even that.
    It’s that so many people are soooooo sure of things they really have no business being sure about.

    We were all sure (including me) that Rambis was going to be the coach.
    We were all sure that Phil was going to blow the 4th pick on Kaminsky or Lyles or whoever.

    I’m guilty of this too – that whole long rant I wrote to Dolan seems pretty ridiculous now, and I’m embarrassed I even wrote it because I literally had no idea what I was talking about.

    It’s so much easier to be a critic. It’s the thing to do nowadays. Like Steve Jobs said to some loser Gawker blogger:

    By the way, what have you done that’s so great? Do you create anything, or just criticize others work and belittle their motivations?

  123. Why can’t the nabobs in here admit that Phil understands winning and talent more than you do when it comes to basketball?

    Ex-NBA jocks are being replaced over time in the front office by the likes of Morey and Ujiri. Phil is one of the last of the mohicans. It’s even starting to happen at the coaching level but you still need an ex-nba player to have some cred with the players. But coaches like Kerr/Hornacek/Battier? are the new breed.

  124. [Phil] He’s not a good negotiator, which is kind of important when your plan is to build through free agency. He doesn’t know how to wield his leverage in negotiations, or even recognize when he has leverage at all. He includes unnecessary NTC’s and player options when he doesn’t have too, which hurts us later. He doesn’t know the value of his assets when including them in a trade. He has no clear plan or path in place. We need to build a good team through free agency but need a good team to attract free agents. He wants to win now until we lose than he’s rebuilding, but doesn’t want to trade Melo, and trades one of our most traceable assets for a broken down has been star, Knicks style. He gave himself a path that gave him little room for error, when he was new at the job and was due for a lot of error. And we’re not going to reap the long term benefits of his growing pains, cause he’s about to retire, cause 5 years for a 70 year old first time GM is short term thinking for a long term job. Hiring Phil Jackson, resigning Melo, trading for Rose= same ol Dolan star fucking. We should be building with Porzingis for the 2020’s, not still trying to build a poor mans version of a big 3

  125. Begley reports that Derrick Rose may get involved in recruiting free agents to NY this summer. He’s already done more for the team than any of you have.

  126. Why can’t the nabobs in here admit that Phil understands winning and talent more than you do when it comes to basketball? Please show your resume if you disagree.

    I would rather look at Phil’s resume as a GM.
    What’s Phil’s record as a GM? 49-115. He’s on his 3rd head coach. The only player that was around before he got the job is Carmelo Anthony. Playoff games: Zero. Please provide evidence that he’s even average.

  127. Because Yogi Ferrell is playing for the Nets’ summer league team? That’s the move that tips things in their favor? On another note, I just saw one rumor that there is a “lot of noise” about Rondo joining the Nets…

    The point of my little bit of hyperbole is that the Nets, who mortgaged their future a few years ago, now have a promising young rookie in Hollis-Jefferson (no KP, I know) and managed to garner 3 picks in a draft with little to no assets involved. They’re headed by a shrewd GM from the Spurs FO in Sean Marks, and we’re headed by a guy who trades for Derrick Rose. Furthermore, they’re making smart player acquisitions with the picks they did have. It’s a pretty decent bet that they’ll be outperforming us in a few years assuming that Marks is even a league-average GM. Unless Porzingis goes nuclear, which is a distinct possibility, I guess. But one top player doesn’t a good team make, either.

  128. Derrick Rose thinks he had a great season, folks.

    “Last year I think I had a (great year) coming off of three surgeries.”

  129. @143 Lol the Nets are terrible. And don’t even have their pick next year. If you reversed roles with them you would be furious. Stop it

  130. It’s time to admit it:

    President Phil Jackson = Coach Magic Johnson = Owner Michael Jordan

  131. Rose is a pretty compelling guy (setting aside the sexual assault allegations). I care about the Knicks being good way more than I care about being right on the internet, so I’ll be rooting for him to be good. If the recruiting pitches he’s sending out are to Noah though I hope he’s not much of a recruiter.

  132. @144 way to quote him out of context.

    I don’t think he meant statistically. He most likely meant getting through the year in 1 piece while having some good games. He also had this quote.

    ” I haven’t spent this much time prepping just playing basketball, since the year before the mvp”

  133. Some of you are surprised that another team would offer Noah the max because you think you’re experts when you’re not. If you just admit the truth then you’ll feel much better about our team.

  134. From Begley:

    “Derrick Rose on free-agent Joakim Noah: “Oh, I want him… He knows that I want to play with him.”

    “D-Rose, a free agent in 2017, says he’s hopeful that he can be in NY long-term. Says he’s gotten great reaction from NY fans since the trade”

    “Derrick Rose says he’s feeling healthy this summer: “I feel like something special is going to happen (this coming season).”

    He’s already helping this team become better. What have you done?

  135. Phil’s plan moving forward:

    1… leave a max slot open for Durant or Whiteside, the only players worthy of it on the oft minuscule chance they are interested.

    2…After plan #1 goes in the toilet, resign some combination of Lance Thomas, Galloway and/or D Williams for 10-15 M per year total to be your primary bench players.

    3… Give the remaining 15-20 M to Pau Gasol (if interested) on a 1 yr deal with the understanding if he likes the moves FA wise in 2017, he’ll resign after being renounced for an exception/vet minimum. Gasol is a massive upgrade over Rolo next season.

    As to the logic of Rose, 3 possibilities:

    1… he sucks and they walk away from him with room for 2 max contracts in 2017 and a high lottery pick

    2… he plays a little better than his post all star break level (reasonable 18 months removed from his last cartilage repair and no broken orbital bone in pre season) and is an improvement over Calderon/Grant and with Gasol over Rolo they win way more than 32 games… maybe a 7 seed?

    3.. 18 months removed from his last surgery he regains some or most of his 2010-12 form and he looks like a keeper. Could be moved for assets at the trade deadline. However, with his injury history, like A’mare, no sane GM would give him a long contract, so if on the oft chance he rebounds to a high level, the Knicks could offer him a 2 yr 60M deal with a player option, or something like that and still have a max slot for a real star with a pretty intriguing line up.

    The bottom line is the back court was so awful last year and there weren’t any good long term options, Rose might actually make sense in this context. It depends on one’s out look.

    Assuming no FA miracle this year, the roster:

    Unicorn
    Melo
    Pau Gasol
    Rose
    Holiday

    Bench: Galloway, D Will , Lance Thomas, Hernangomez, O’Quinn, Thannis, Trice, Darion Atkins, Bachynski

  136. What have you done?

    Unfortunately, what I have does is to read your 7 trolling posts over the last hour, which make it very hard to read this supposedly sane blog. I wish there was an ignore function, really.

  137. I’m just saying that some of you are hyper negative and think that your GMs or something. Like you know better than Phil does. What kind of fans are you? Celtics fans?

  138. Jowles lifts his predictions from NBA Geek which uses a metric he doesn’t really understands, yet one he parrots more dogmatically than anything Pom-Pom waving fanbois say or use to justify their fandom.

    NBA GEEK is ok. It’s been hit and miss with the Knicks and every other team.

    Your schtick is over and I’m still generally right about the state of the Knicks. Your Precious is going to retire without ever winning a damn thing in the NBA. You don’t matter.

  139. I’m not an actor or a director either, but I can say without a doubt that Tommy Wiseau sucks at directing and acting.

    You can shut your damn mouth, JK47. You shut it right now.

  140. @154 – I’m less annoyed with this trade than most (I’ve calmed down), but it’s still not good. I’ve not liked most of the trades Phil has made except for the fact that he unloaded a bunch of bad contracts and cleared cap space. IMO there’s too much emphasis here on “stats”.

    @151 – I’m close to agreeing with your proposed lineup with some changes.
    Instead of Gasol: Noah. More of defense, friend of Rose, raised in NY.
    Instead of Holiday: Bazemore or Turner. Holiday is a backup. We need a starter.
    Instead of Darion Atkins: Jimmer. We need outside shooting off the bench. He’s instant offense.
    Instead of Trice: Trice is a nice backup PG but Derrick Williams provides depth behind Melo.

  141. Given all of the BBall wisdom on this Blog, could you help a guy learn about the undrafted free agents the Knicks just signed. Thanks.

    Oh and btw, I could have sworn that part of registering was NO trolling. Maybe I was just imagining things.

  142. Send me your resume, please.

    Indiana Pacers, General Manager, 1987-2008

    New York Knicks, President, 2008-2011

  143. I want to see the Rose-Turner-Melo-Porzingis-Noah lineup just to see if the Knicks can break an all-time NBA record for lowest eFG% in a season.

  144. And now Phil signs Marshall Plumlee as a free agent. So far Ron Baker, Harris, and Plumlee. I’m going to root for all of them. How about you?
    From draftexpress.com:

    “At 7’1, with a much improved frame, and strong athletic ability, Plumlee can certainly be a presence inside the paint when he’s playing with the type of confidence, aggressiveness and intensity he put forth in this game, at least at the college level. The way he protected the rim was particularly eye-opening from an NBA standpoint, as he showed really nice timing rotating from the weakside and chasing down loose balls, hustling non-stop for every moment he was on the floor. ”

    Thanks, Phil!

    And since when is rooting for the Knicks as a fan considered trolling? Try it sometime.

  145. @151 – I’m close to agreeing with your proposed lineup with some changes.
    Instead of Gasol: Noah. More of defense, friend of Rose, raised in NY.

    Noah’s health is more tenuous besides his shoulder surgery. If you look at the daily fantasy reports from Chicago, he was battling “left knee soreness” on a daily basis from during training camp til he dislocated his shoulder in January.

    And the fact he was raised in NY is irrelevant. A very good player when healthy, but I question giving a multi year large deal to a guy with multiple injuries

  146. Listen reub, I’m all for balls-to-the-wall optimism, but the whole sanctimonious No-True-Scotsman schtick is really grating after awhile. Grating enough to compel me to stop lurking and tell you to give it a rest.

  147. Again, Jowles, you don’t make predictions, you plagiarize them. You’re the worst kind of charlatan. Not because you lack respect for others, but yourself.

  148. As much as we could use 100 more comments on Rose or more reub trolling (seriously can one of the mods step in here) can somebody with a little more college bball savvy than me give a rundown on Plumlee? He’s got the size and his brothers are all good athletes. Anything to see here?

  149. Ruru, you made a pledge to vanish if Melo didn’t give the Knicks a substantial discount when he re-signed. It’s a pledge you only sort of followed. So let’s not hear lectures about self-respect.

    You’ve been discredited here.

  150. Everybody calm down. Let’s all stop and smell the Roses… Or maybe not. I just took a bloodbath in the market. My faith in the future of the Knicks plummeted also. We’re about to max Noah. I’m gonna disconnect from the web and watch the movie Cocoon tonight.

  151. ruruland,

    You are mad because I’m right. And for all your wind-bagging, you have been consistently wrong. Carmelo is not worthy of a max contract. He has been part of a perennial loser since Chandler left and he was part of a mediocre team before Chandler came.

    Your Precious is a fuckin’ dud, bro, and you shouldn’t be mad at me for it. Get lost, again.

    Sincerely,

    Literally Fucking Everyone on This Site Except er because er Loves Melo Almost as Much as You Do

  152. I luv u both ru and jow, pls, don’t stop!!! u guys is like the frank gorshen dudes in classic star trek

  153. Wow, this is gotten very personal very quickly. Anyways. Marc Spearsfrom Yahoo just said that Durant will be taking free-agent meetings in LA and in the Hamptons. I’d say that’s interesting.

  154. @171
    Yup. Several people lost their cool today.
    RE Durant: probably just an East Coast, West Coast thing? Convenience, or an omen?

    RE Noah. I really hope that the Wiz sign him. I wouldn’t want him on anything more than a 1 year deal. I really think that the intention is to have KP get the lion’s share of the minutes at C this year, but I’m not a big fan of that. We’ll see.

  155. LA is Durant’s summer home right? The Hamptons are also a pretty nice place to take a summer vacation. I’m going to resist reading too much into it. I’ll always remember the frenzy about “The Decision” special being in Greenwich and how close it was to the Knicks practice facility or whatever. Him coming here would make so little sense that I could see Durant holding up a Knicks jersey at his introductory press conference and I’d still be pretty skeptical to be honest. I refuse to get overly excited (I’m a little excited).

  156. it’s impossible to evaluate marshall without mentioning his bros… they were all not very good prospects but mason was a cut above the other two since he just did a lot more scoring at duke…

    marshall has mason’s size with mile’s athleticism…. if he wasn’t a plumlee we wouldn’t be talking about him at all .. he’s going to be 24 and he was pretty mediocre…

    but since his bros are solid pros i suppose it’s worth a flier since they’ve all come out of the same environment…. this is a typical knicks move in the jackson era targeting older prospects…

  157. The Panglossian Optimists vs the Brutal Realists is not a new debate around here. One time a long time ago I was in the former camp, but I’ve had the optimism beaten out of me. Fifteen years of shitty basketball with only one playoff series win will do that to you.

    I’m just not really into the idea of building the team around injury-riddled low-efficiency volume scorers with no secondary skills. That approach has gone horribly wrong over and over and over again. I don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel or any coherent plan coming from this front office. It sure looks like we’re stuck in the middle of yet another failed attempt to win by buying into scorers who were good five years ago, and hoping their presence attracts other players who are actually good at basketball. I’m just sick of the bullshit, and if I’m taking it out on the Panglossians well then I’m sorry. This particular shit sundae is a very difficult one to swallow. I actually had hope for the Phil Jackson regime, and I was very wrong to have that foolish hope. The only thing to do now is play out the strong until Phil is gone and MMM is off the books. More treading water. Yay.

  158. I’m hoping that Hornacek can have a positive effect on our new young guards and Galloway. He has so much that he can teach them.

  159. Even if this Plumlee is the worst Plumlee he should at least be a servicable backup. Like djphan said, Marshall put up Plumlee-type numbers at Duke, and his brothers have been effective (if somewhat limited) NBA bigmen. He’s definitely worth a look.

  160. I’m signing up for Summer League Pass just to check out the potential treasures we’ve accumulated for our #stealthtank (please don’t sign Noah. I’d like to compete in 2020, not be looking at yet another breakdown and search for FAs).

    Baker looks okay, solid shooter, good TS%, high motor, poor in transition and an okayish defender. Probably can’t create at an NBA level but we’ll see. Might have hit a wall senior year.

    Randle might be interesting. He’s from Rock Island, Il, which is not an island but is named after an island. “The original Rock Island, from which the city name is derived, is the largest island on the Mississippi River.” That’s some Huck Finn shit right there. Will Randle get conned into painting other guys lockers for them during Summer League? He’s already got a job, playing in the top Czech league. Anybody seen any Czech games? Know where to get stats for this guy? Relative level of the league? I’m hopeful because Clarence Gaines, but I know nothing.

    Plumlee is related to other Plumlees. He went to Duke which shows bad character, but maybe Phil can rehabilitate him. Probably not as good as the other Plumlees, though we know from experience that the lesser relatives of NBA players will always ruin your tank. That’s two strikes before he’s hit the floor.

    Marvelle Harris makes me hopeful for the future. Volume scoring penetrating guard of middling efficiency without an outside shot seems like an odd guy to pick up for summer league if you’re expecting DRose to play that role for you. #stealthtank

  161. I luv u both ru and jow, pls, don’t stop!!! u guys is like the frank gorshen dudes in classic star trek

    OMG…my favorite line from all of Star Trek is when Frank Gorshin turns to Lokai and calls Captain Kirk , “mono-colored trash!”

  162. Even if this Plumlee is the worst Plumlee he should at least be a servicable backup. Like djphan said, Marshall put up Plumlee-type numbers at Duke, and his brothers have been effective (if somewhat limited) NBA bigmen. He’s definitely worth a look.

    He put up Mason like numbers but Mason was a way better rebounder. Miles had similar rebounding numbers his senior year as Marshall but the years before that he performed at a level Marshall never reached. Marshall is the best shot blk of the group. Miles also came out of school as a 23 year old so there’s that but both of his brothers were 1st rd picks while he went undrafted in one of the weaker drafts in recent history.

  163. Reading this thread and all the other ones concerning Rose has made one thing abundantly clear to me. There are some people who will defend literally any move the Knicks make to the death. They were in favor of maxing Stoudemire, trading for Melo, trading for Bargs, and now trading for Rose. And you know what? That’s okay. If some people’s conception of being a fan includes being an eternal optimist, go for it. But you have to understand that for others, being a fan involves actually being critical when the team you root for makes objectively terrible moves…again, and again, and again, and again.

    Derrick Rose has been either injured or terrible for the last four seasons. There is simply no logical reason to believe both of those trends will simultaneously stop in such grand fashion that it’ll have been worth trading two legitimate assets for him (seriously, Belinelli and Thad Young both netted first rounders). If you want to believe that’ll happen because you think it’s part of some larger duty as a fan or whatever, fine, but don’t get holier than thou on the people who actually want to see success via a smart, well thought out process.

  164. I put the phone down for a moment and wow…
    There’s a bit of misplaced anger here. A lot of projecting due to how crappy the Bockers have been, perhaps.
    3 new young and able bodies. Thanks for the info.
    Reub, nothing wrong with being positive sir

  165. 3 new young and able bodies. Thanks for the info.

    Who are the 3?

  166. Thank you, Boriqua3. Optimism drives people crazy on here it seems. What amazes me is that this is the offseason where hope should spring eternal. I can see frustration setting in once the season’s underway and we’re playing poorly. But now?

  167. “Last year I think I had a (great year) coming off of three surgeries.”

    What was the parenthetical? He cursed a lot, right? But what curse word could stand in for “great year”?

  168. “Last year I had [an albatross max contract only Phil Jackson would take on] coming off of three surgeries.”

  169. Cocky J, that would be Baker, Harris, and Plumlee. Oh, and then there’s Kristap’s buddy, Hernangomez = 4 potential superstars (minimum, roster fillers)

  170. 1) They may “feel” that, but it doesn’t take a PhD in Basketballatology to know that feeling doesn’t mean shit compared to the numbers. He’s washed up.

    I also think DRose is washed up, but my opinion is as unscientific as it can get. I dont think your TS% measures your recovery rate of a meniscus tear. In any case, I think we should defer to the medical staff to see to what extent will DRose recover. It may even be mental, and we should consult a psychologist.

    The statistics of players with DRose injury history is bad, but its prognosis has very little to do with this statistic and has everything to do with each particular player and injury. So it’s ok if you want to argue how stupid is to trade for DRose, but please dont act as if you have measured the thickness of DRose cartilages.

  171. @188 Haha! Your levity and sarcasm are much appreciated! Let’s hope that you’re right.

  172. I don’t disagree with any of that, yellowboy. Still worth a look. He’s got great bloodlines

  173. He said hell of a year

    They seriously had to avoid saying “hell of a year”? Yikes.

  174. This was a fun read. The first couple of weeks in July should provide even more epic threads. Can’t wait!!

  175. Being a local, I watched a lot of Marshall Plumlee this year (including court side one game). I would say he is a worse rebounding, even less offensively skilled Cole Aldrich. He’s very limited offensively, and didn’t seem to have a whole lot of stamina, but could be a real difference maker protecting the rim in stretches. He could be a terror on the offensive glass against smaller teams, but that would probably be limited by NBA size. I could see him as being an ok 8th or 9th man defender/agitator.

  176. Cole had a sophisticated offensive game the subtleties of which were wasted on you boorish philistines

  177. This is a bad move on Phil’s part, but he didn’t give up any future assets or take on any albatross contracts to do it.

    I think the logic of combining these assets in an attempt to get a penetrating guard is reasonable. Looking to dump Calderon in the process is also reasonable, because he was a horse shit player who looks a lot better on BRef than he does on the floor. Using that package to trade for Rose is a misstep, but one that seems pretty clearly designed imo as a middling risk, high reward, but likely bust potential without cutting in to future cap space or picks.

    Really, I’d feel a lot better about this deal if we just didn’t deal Grant. If I had to grade it I’d give it a C-/D+, but I do think people are going way over the top when they act like this is out of Isiah or Layden or Walsh or Grunwald’s book.

    As far as I’m concerned this is easily the worst move Phil’s made in his time and one that I think could cost him his job at the end of the year if Rose is still a pumpkin. The only reason to be any bit optimistic Rose might be better is he actually played a lot of minutes last year without any recurrence of his injuries and played substantially better after the ASB. Visually it seems like he still has his agility, first step and ability to get to the rim (8.9 drives per game, Knicks as a team had 15.5), but simply didn’t have the explosion to finish that made him so deadly in his pre-injury years.

    Can he improve on that or is he just done? Idk, I’d guess there’s like a 10-15% chance he gets back to an above average level and even that feels somewhat optimistic.

    If we’re going the super high boom/bust path anyways and assuming KD tells us to fuck off I’d just pay up for Noah on a 1+1 (team option) and see if he can’t find his legs here either. If him and Rose do we’re looking good, if not we suck, our pick improves and Melo probably bounces. Seems like an okay path.

  178. The bigger problem for Rose is that his outside shot is so bad that defenders go under screens and play a step off of him. This forces him to drive into a defense that is waiting for him with the associated injury risk, or to shoot a low percentage jumper. Assuming he remains healthy, i know, an iffy proposition, whether he is good or not totally depends on his ability to keep defenses honest from the perimeter. Even if he can hit like 33% from 3, it would make a big difference for him.

    I hope that Hornacek helps to make him a better player with better decision-making and shot selection.

  179. probably one of the more reasoned defenses of the trade lavor… but i think the most damning thing about this trade is the timing….

    there was no incentive to do this trade now… there’s a trade kicker but i think that’s overstated… we could have gone thru with whatever plan we were going to go with and then go back to the rose trade and bring him into the fold with available cap space without giving up lopez…. if we wanted to clear lopez there was infinitely better ways to do it… we gave up lopez and grant to save 3mm this year… there were easily scenarios where we wind up with rose + other stuff in about a month…. instead of just rose…

    given the timing… it was done right now because we wanted to maximize space this year… and blowing all that’s left on it… and that’s what scares me… and ultimately i think the rose deal is the canary in the coal mine to about what’s going to be a regrettable offseason for us….

  180. I was just looking at Marshall Plumlee’s DX page, and if the measurements from the 2010 NBA Top 100 Camp are accurate my man got some cartoonishly short arms. He’s got a wingspan 1″ longer than Langston Galloway, who is 10″ shorter.

  181. This is a bad move on Phil’s part, but he didn’t give up any future assets or take on any albatross contracts to do it.

    Yeah, seriously, there’s no reason to kill Jackson over the trade, as it isn’t, like, some insane deal, it’s just not a good move.

  182. Grant counts as a “future asset” though, as he is (was) one of the few players on the roster that stands to appreciate rather than depreciate.

  183. @201

    I agree, but he’s an asset Jackson acquired. My issue isn’t using assets to get a penetrating guard, it’s simply the penetrating guard he went for.

  184. Yeah, I agree with that Lavor. My main issue is with folks who say “at least Phil didn’t give up a 1st round pick”, when there isn’t much difference between giving up future picks and recent past picks, especially when you don’t have many of either to fuck around with.

  185. Yeah, seriously, there’s no reason to kill Jackson over the trade, as it isn’t, like, some insane deal, it’s just not a good move.

    The trade is just straight up bad. I mean, it’s not colossally bad– Rose only has the one year on his contract so the downside to the trade isn’t as bad as in some of the classic blunder trades the Knicks have made in the past. But to me it was an Emperor’s New Clothes moment. I feel like an idiot for giving Phil the benefit of the doubt as long as I did. This trade shows me his whole approach is flawed, and that he is not going to be able to put together a winning team. I’m not gonna pan every move Phil has made as Knicks GM because he has done a few good things but there’s no coherent strategy to anything he’s doing. He keeps making these neither-fish-nor-fowl, neither-contender-nor-tanking kind of moves, bringing in stopgap guys who don’t factor into the team’s long-term plans and not doing much in the way of acquiring real building blocks.

    He’s just a poor GM. I was open-minded about him and was encouraged by the Hornacek signing and the seeming willingness to move away from the Triangle. But whatever. The Knicks are just playing out the string now until Phil is canned. One more season of thirty-something wins ought to put this era out to pasture.

  186. I think whether Jackson is just off his rocker made an unreasonably bad bet will depend on what the Knicks do the rest of this offseason. If they use up all of their cap on long term contracts and then re-sign Galloway and Thomas, then sure, then it will be clear that Jackson acquired Rose because he thought that Rose was a good pick-up. That would be an awful decision (it’s a bad decision even if Rose miraculously heals and becomes an MVP candidate again, as there was no reasonable basis for thinking that would happen when the deal was made – if we talk about who has the most information about Rose, obviously it is the Bulls, and they never would have traded him for this haul if they thought that there was a reasonable chance of Rose returning to form this season).

    Now if he goes short-term contracts, or signs just one guy long term and then re-signs Thomas and Galloway with the remaining cap room, then that would suggest to me that Jackson is doing what the guys who are hoping this is what he is doing think he is doing, which is picking up Rose merely to get rid of 2017 salary so that the Knicks have super max cap room in 2017. Now, even if that happens, I still don’t like the trade, as you are not going to convince me that Robin Lopez couldn’t have been dealt for a first round pick or two seconds or whatever, but at least that doesn’t entail him trading for Rose because he thinks that Rose will be good next season. If it is the latter, there is some logic to the deal. I don’t agree with it, but there’s some logic to it. If it is the former, then yeah, sure, that’s just terrible.

    I’m leaning towards the latter at the moment myself. We will see for ourselves very soon!

  187. @204 jk47 – completely agree, I couldn’t have said it better. “The emperor clearly has no clothes” and Phil does not have a coherent long term plan for this team.

  188. My fear at this point is that Rose does have a renaissance and has an above average season (which I think is unlikely). Let’s say he does though, then Phil is going to be under pressure to sign him to some kind of max or near-max contract for multiple years, to justify his trading away assets only a year ago. That is the corner that Phil will be boxing himself into.

  189. DRose trade is a win win trade for me.
    If he plays great we can always sign and trade him to the bulls and get back Calderon,Grant & Rolo
    and
    if he plays bad we can let him go to the sixers who wil definitely want him for their tanking legacy.
    Definitely “Win Win”
    Why you makin it look “Whine Whine” ?

  190. @208. – Chicago just heisted us in this trade. No way are they going to turn around and just trade us those same players. Unfortunately most front offices in the Association are not as clueless as us in valuing assets. If the latter happens and he sucks for us and we let him walk then we effectively gave up two value contracts for a one year rental of Rose that will likely not lead to any deep playoff run. I fail to see win-win in this scenario no matter how hard I look.

  191. @209
    Then why most bulls fans are angry and they’re crying all over the internet for this trade ?
    I saw one video with a bulls fan sayin “we trade drose for TRASH”

  192. @210 the fans are not the front office. There is an emotional attachment of the fans to Rose, but based on stats and analytics Rose is a shell of his former self. I firmly believe based on his salary and what we gave up that we got fleeced.

  193. @211 -What we gave up is
    1.an almost retired spanish pg that we had to waive
    2.a center that Phil got as a free agent but needed upgrading
    3. a “promising” backup pg that also Phil got by trading THjr
    Giving away those 3 for the DRose 1yr sweepstake don’t seem as much to me

  194. My fear at this point is that Rose does have a renaissance and has an above average season (which I think is unlikely). Let’s say he does though, then Phil is going to be under pressure to sign him to some kind of max or near-max contract for multiple years, to justify his trading away assets only a year ago. That is the corner that Phil will be boxing himself into.

    This is so off the wall nuts.

    Phil has a long history of succumbing to others pressure and opinions, doesn’t he????? He is the least likely guy on the planet to do that.

    Come on fellas…..

  195. I think whether Jackson is just off his rocker will depend on what the Knicks do the rest of this offseason. If they use up all of their cap on long term contracts and then re-sign Galloway and Thomas, then sure, then it will be clear that Jackson acquired Rose because he thought that Rose was a good pick-up. That would be an awful decision (it’s a bad decision even if Rose miraculously heals and becomes an MVP candidate again, as there was no reasonable basis for thinking that would happen when the deal was made(my emphasis) – if we talk about who has the most information about Rose, obviously it is the Bulls, and they never would have traded him for this haul if they thought that there was a reasonable chance of Rose returning to form this season).

    Look at you reasoning here.

    If Rose rebounds to all star Rose, trading Rolo, a rookie who had a poor season and a washed up terrible guardwas still an awful play. Why???? Because we stat geniuses here didn’t see it coming and there was no logic to it.

    Hubris much????

    You realize the Bulls may have more information on Rose, but the still could be making the wrong deduction, right. That happens just about every trade…. one side undervalues and one overvalues.

  196. For me Phil has done a few great moves, many good ones and a few neutral ones.
    I don’t feel that he has been the ‘GM of the year’ but i don’t see any mistaken move till now.
    That’s why i’ll trust him once more on the drose trade.

  197. If Rose rebounds to all star Rose, trading Rolo, a rookie who had a poor season and a washed up terrible guardwas still an awful play. Why???? Because we stat geniuses here didn’t see it coming and there was no logic to it.

    If anyone acquired Derrick Rose on the presumption that he would return to MVP form after four years of multiple serious injuries and sustained poor play, then they would be morons, plain and simple. Even in the worst case scenario (where Jackson traded for Rose because he thinks he’ll be good), I wouldn’t think that Jackson believes that, as he’s not a moron (Phil Jackson is many things, but he’s clearly not stupid). The worst case scenario is that Jackson thinks that Rose will rebound to be a decent enough player. I think that that, in and of itself, would be an unreasonably bad bet, but it’s not as absurd as thinking Rose would return to MVP form.

  198. Apropos of nothing, though, it is fair to say that using the term “off his rocker” instead of “making an unreasonably bad bet” was probably too harsh of a term, so I apologize for that. Sorry, Phil! I’ll amend that comment.

  199. He keeps making these neither-fish-nor-fowl, neither-contender-nor-tanking kind of moves, bringing in stopgap guys who don’t factor into the team’s long-term plans and not doing much in the way of acquiring real building blocks.

    What would’ve been your plan that would have turned us into a contender?

    And there is no world in which we should or would overtly tank. Melo has a NTC, #1, and pre-trade, the team still had a fair amount of talent — not bad enough to get a top 5 pick. And the last thing you want to do with KP’s development is to show him an organization that wants to lose, even if it’s theoretically for long-term gain. That’s why he wouldn’t even meet with the Sixers predraft, remember?

    Truth is – pre-trade, there probably was no move at all that could possibly have turned us into a contender, or even a top 6 seed for the 2016-17 season, short of KD unexpectedly signing here. Maybe if we maxed Conley out, we could’ve been a top 6 seed, but then we would’ve been stuck with him on a max contract for 4 years, which no one here really wanted either.

    NOT making this trade was also a “neither fish nor fowl” strategy. I’m not saying this strategy is demonstrably better — I just don’t think it’s necessarily worse. Even in the (probably) fantasy world of “Robin Lopez is worth a 1st round pick without us having to take back any other dead salary for 2016-17”, it’d probably be a late 1st round pick, which is extremely unlikely to be a needle-mover. So where’s the upside?

    The way I see it – Melo is what he is, and will get worse at some unknown rate. Pre-trade, the only major upsides for the team were KP’s development and free agency. Post-trade, those are still there, and you also add the (unlikely but still possible) upside of Derrick Rose returning to form.

  200. Sportando
    ?
    @Sportando

    Alessandro Gentile’s rights were close to being traded to the Knicks before the NBA draft, La Gazzetta dello Sport reports

    I believe someone mentioned Gentile a few days ago on here. If this is true I wonder what held things up.

  201. Yeah, I’ve taken a liking to him. Seems like a decent player who can push the pace at a position of need. Hope this can still go through. He’s probably worth a future second (not that Bulls one, though)

  202. Yeah we possibly could have traded Lopez for a late first and ended up with, say, Caris Lavert in return. How could we pass that possibility up for a 27 yr old former MVP?

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