[NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: The Knicks at Midseason: Full Arena, No Plan (Thursday, February 15, 2018 7:12:38 PM)
Frank Ntilikina’s dwindling minutes are a troubling sign that the Knicks have given up on yet another player, and yet another year.
[NYTimes] N.B.A. Stars Get Into the Hollywood Game (Thursday, February 15, 2018 6:56:02 PM)
Los Angeles is suddenly crawling with basketball royalty like Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and Kevin Durant, who are developing TV shows, streaming offerings and movies.
[SNY Knicks] Kanter laments lack of energy in Knicks’ historic loss (Thursday, February 15, 2018 5:25:43 PM)
Enes Kanter blamed a lack of energy for why the Knicks coughed up a 27 point lead against the Wizards on Wednesday night.
[SNY Knicks] Hardaway Jr., Knicks embarrassed after historic blown lead (Thursday, February 15, 2018 9:55:46 AM)
It was one for the ages, but it wasn’t at all in the Knicks’ favor.
(Friday, February 16, 2018 2:47:43 AM)
The Knicks didn’t want to have to trust the process, but now they have no other choice.
(Thursday, February 15, 2018 3:02:43 PM)
Rookie point guard Frank Ntilikina is looking forward to the break — getting away from the Knicks’ deep slide, picking the brains of the All-Star talent arriving in Hollywood and hanging out with Jazz rookie Donovan Mitchell, whom he worked out with over the summer. Mitchell, who lives in Connecticut, is now the leading candidate…
(Thursday, February 15, 2018 9:50:54 AM)
The Knicks’ final 23 games after the All-Star break are only a series of “Bridges’’ to their next date of import: the May 15 draft lottery. Pun intended. If the lottery were held now, the Knicks would hold the ninth-best odds with a 23-36 record and a league-high eight-game losing streak entering the break. If…
[NYDN] Jarrett Jack to take a backseat to Knicks’ young guards (Thursday, February 15, 2018 8:31:52 PM)
The Jarrett Jack era appears to be over. Which point guard fills his spot in the lineup is unclear.
[NYDN] Rising Stars Challenge: Previewing Ntilikina, other point guards (Thursday, February 15, 2018 8:31:04 PM)
The Rising Stars Challenge will showcase four of the six point guards taken with the top-13 picks.
62 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.02.16)”
The New York Times article referred to above is very discouraging. I’ve had more faith in Perry than in previous GM’s because he seems actually able to negotiate contracts that don’t give unnecessary concessions such a player options and that are fair in terms of value. He also so far has made reasonable deals in terms of value in the trades he has done. But he has shown a preference for players that are likely to be much better on offense than defense (Kanter and Mudiay), which is the opposite of what seems to have been Jackson’s preferences, and the Times article is probably right that he has already given up on developing Ntilikina.
He seems to think that competition for playing time will force player development. But competition for playing time takes places over the space of weeks during preseason or during the season. Player development takes years. So someone like Ntilikina could easily lose minutes now that he needs for development to someone like Mudiay even though Ntilikina, if developed, is likely to be a much more valuable player at 21 than Mudiay is now.
Maybe Perry sees the same thing I’m seeing…that Ntilikina is not a PG now and is unlikely to ever be one, and that it was a huge mistake to draft him at the #8 spot given who was available.
Maybe Perry agrees with my position that Ntilikina was given way too much too soon, and that if he ever is going to develop, he needs to be pushed by other young prospects.
Maybe Perry wishes in retrospect that he had sent Ntilikina to the G-League to find out more about whether he has what it takes to develop, rather than spook him with the shitty, spotty play he’s dug into right now.
If anything, it’s reason for hope. Although Mudiay is clearly not the answer either, at least there is no sense of entitlement any more based on where he was drafted, or his age or wingspan. Fuck Phil Jackson.
It’s certainly possible that you and Perry think alike when it comes to Ntilikina. I’m not arguing that. I am arguing that Perry seems to value offense more than defense when it comes to picking players. And I’m arguing that giving up on Ntilikina is a mistake. I have no idea if he will prove to have been the best person pick possible for where he was drafted, nor do I care. But I do think that by the time he is 21 he will be a good defender who can shoot threes at a good percentage and be a useful player. We shouldn’t give up on that.
I think Mudiay, on the other hand, will probably never be a good defender and, as Jowles and others have said, may never be a worthwhile player at all. But he will get playing time and development at the expense of other players. So I am worried about Perry as a GM. He can do all the reasonable deals he wants and lose none of them, but if we always trade for the Kanters and Mudiays of the world we may never be good.
Let me ask you, given his player preferences so far, do you think he would draft Porzingis?
I’m not sure who he would have drafted at #4. Clearly, if we had the #2 0r #3 pick, there’s no chance he would have picked Porzingis; Jackson might have. On the other hand, no one saw Porzingis as purely a defensive player, so comparing him to Ntilikina is not valid.
And I don’t think Perry is “giving up” on Ntilikina. He’s viewing him as a 19yo relatively raw project as a 3-and-D 2 rather than our PG of the future.
And I take issue with your premise that he values O over D, since Willy wad dumped primarily due to his poor D and O’Quinn was retained primarily due to his D. I think that Perry understands that PG is primarily an offensive position in today’s NBA. I don’t care how good of a defender you are, you’re not stopping Harden, or Paul, or Westbrook, or Kyrie, etc. from scoring. You need to be able to at least somewhat compensate on the offensive end for what you give up on D. If you’re getting outscored 25-12 every night at the 1, you better be a triple-double guy surrounded by offensive savants (Ben Simmons, Rondo, Kidd are 3 good examples, do you ever see Frank in that class?)
I hope you are right that Perry values D more than it appears to me.
I think that Ntilikina has no chance of being Simmons. They just seem like different players to me. Rondo I also doubt, since he just doesn’t seem as athletic as young Rondo and he already shoots threes reasonably, which I’m not sure Rondo ever did. Kidd I don’t know about. If he cuts down on all the lazy passes he makes, that too often result in turnovers, then I think he could run the team well without being the sort of scorer you are saying modern point guards need to be. It’s true that now the style is to have a scoring 1 and a defensive 2, but that wasn’t always the case, and I don’t see why it couldn’t work the other way around.
In all fairness, he didn’t really “pick” Kanter, he just took him back in order to move Melo. I think everyone agreed at the time that getting anything of value back was acceptable.
I do agree about Kanter, Perry might not have had a choice. But I am still worried. It could just be Knick fan PTSD on my part, but there are lots of GMs out there who value pointzz, and he could be one of them.
Mills traces back to Isiah who often went for “scorers”. His first major move was Hardaway. That’s the kind of player Isiah would have gone for (think Crawford). It would not shock me if that’s the thinking now. Even if Perry is doing the deals now, people tend to hire like-minded individuals.
I’m not buying the Frank controversy at all.
It’s not complicated.
Frank played off the ball in Europe and was drafted partly because he was an ideal fit for the triangle and what Jackson was trying to build. They knew going in he wasn’t the typical PG. He’s more of George Hill type player. But when they fired Jackson and abandoned the triangle they needed something different. So they’ve been trying to develop Frank into more of a true PG. Regardless of whether anyone thinks he’ll ever get there or not, it was bound to be a long and difficult journey. If they didn’t know that, they shouldn’t be running an organization. In the mean time, there is nothing wrong with also playing him off the ball with a true PG like Burke or Mudiay at times. In the end (like 5-6 years from now – not next week), he’s probably going to turn out to be a lock down wing defender that make 3s, passes well from the off guard position, and plays some PG. That’s sort of what I think he is and I’m very happy with that.
I’m more concerned about Hardaway. If Frank is ultimately going to be a combo guard, we don’t really need Hardaway unless we turn him into a 6th man (which is what he should be anyway) and eat that huge salary with him coming off the bench.
So yeah, the front office isn’t on board with Ntilikina but they are with Mudiay… isn’t it so Knicksy?
See, I’m NOT happy with that. If he was the 15th pick in a weak draft, or a second-round draft-and-stash player, I’d be happy with it. But he was taken over a bunch of guys who looked like they were going to have an impact at a much earlier time (2-3 years out or before) and imho will be better than Frank 5-6 years out.
Be that as it may, I think there’s a reasonable outside chance that he develops more than it looks like he will so far. As many have said, he’s a great kid who works hard, seems to eat, sleep and shit basketball, and really, really wants to be good. But if it takes 5-6 years for him to develop into a guy you hope for at #30 in a strong draft, I’m not gonna be happy at all, especially if five or six guys that were there for the taking at #8 become all-stars.
My view is the guy that we are going to have 5-6 years from now is going to be a LOT better than what you are describing. He may not score 20-25 points per night, but if he’s giving us 15-18, 5, and 5 with good range, an above average TS%, and he’s a lock down defender, sign me up. He’s going to get triple doubles on some nights and win games with defense. And it’s not like we have to wait 5-6 to get anything. It’s a journey from where he is now to his peak with each passing year being better.
Which is fine, so long as you acknowledge that your view is based largely on hope and nothing more. He might develop, or he might not. If a re-draft were held today, I doubt that he would go before #15, and might not crack the top 20.
i wouldn’t believe that the organization would give up on a rookie player…. but what is concerning is that there seems to be a complete lack of a development plan for any of the players…. do we even have a development program?
earlier in the season i think the staff was asked on what their plan was for frank and i think they stated they were just concentrating on building up his stamina…. now i realize that they basically don’t have a plan….
frank may or may not develop…. but i have large concerns about the organization if that’s the case…
That Araton article makes me want to give up.
Meanwhile, Zach Lowe wrote this about the lottery pick from the 2015 draft we could have acquired instead of Mudiay:
Maybe Z-man is desperately grasping at straws to fuel his anti Frank crusade.
Frankly, our moves make more sense if we were instituting a Philly-style long term tank.
– Giving away Hernangomez for very future considerations
– Acquiring the worst PG in the NBA
– Featuring Beasley, Jack, and Thomas
Those are all things Hinkie would have approved of in year 1 of the Process.
Giving up on a 19 year old player or making definitive conclusions about whether or not he’s a “true PG” after 1100 MP is one of the more silly takes I’ve been reading on this blog over the past few months. Give him a few years, Jesus Christ.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19525455/kevin-pelton-weekly-mailbag-including-point-guard-career-arcs
I hope to god he doesn’t, because then you’d both be incredibly short sighted.
No one’s arguing Porzingis over Jokic anymore, are they?
Sure.
There are probabilities associated with where a guy is at present, his age, his athleticism, his intelligence, his worth ethic, and other physical attributes. I’m no expert at projecting NBA players, but he has a lot of positive things going for him in terms of the probabilities.
@18 comparing today’s PGs to those of the distant past is silly. We are in a no-hand-checkind, 3-pt chucking, high pnr universe that didn’t exist back then.
As to my anti-Frank crusade, yes, I’ve been down on the pick since day 1. I will continue to be down on the pick until Frank proves me wrong. He certainly hasn’t yet. I suppose 5-6 years from now when he still isn’t living up to expectations, while Donovan Mitchell is tearing up the league, you’ll still be blaming it on how the Knicks braintrust failed to develop him properly.
@20 Just you.
The point is that taller PG’s take longer to develop than the shorter ones which is consistent across the last 20 years.
I don’t think Kanter is proof Perry prefers offense over defense. Kanter was acquired in the Melo trade. Melo only wanted to go to Houston, whose offer was worse than what Perry got from OKC. Perry convinced Melo to open up OKC as a possible trade destination and Kanter was the main piece in that trade because his large salary helped match the dollar amount in the trade. Kanter pretty much HAD to be involved in any Melo trade with OKC to make the salaries work.
@21, agreed. But there is also the probability that certain fundamental liabilities will not be fixed, such as athleticism (he’s clearly not anywhere near an elite athlete) shooting (he is clearly not a good shooter at this time) finishing (please, don’t even go there) and ball-handling (he has a sloppy handle and is highly susceptible to ball pressure and shooting the passing lanes). These were all evident in his play in France. They haven’t improved one iota in his 1000+ minutes of play; if anything, they’ve gotten worse. Does he get enough minutes to be blaming the rookie wall? I guess we’ll see.
thestepien.com had a nice write up on Mikal Bridges
https://www.thestepien.com/2017/11/06/2018-nba-draft-primer-mikal-bridges-low-usage-wunderkind/
But Frank was never a PG at any level. He’s not a “taller PG”, he’s an “average SG being force-fed PG minutes in the hope that he can become a PG”. So his height is not the issue, and your argument is irrelevant here.
I really do not think it matters if Frank is a PG or SG and if Mudiay works out, I think the two of them together can share those duties (and in theory share defensive assignments because of their height and length). The point is to have someone in your 5 who can distribute and handle the ball. It can be either/both of your guards or someone else like how Lebron does it. You can roll with 3 guard line ups with Frank/Mudiay/Hardaway bc Frank can guard a 3 on defense if needed. If you get a guy like Doncic in the draft (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE GOD!), then he can also distribute and play point.
Ideally I think it would be awesome of Mudiay and Frank can be the starters together and Hardaway is our 6th man off the bench.
Jokic is currently the way better rebounder, play maker, and way more advanced in terms of decision making with the ball (shoot, pass, put the ball on the floor etc..)
Porzingis is the better defender.
Porzingis has more potential to develop into a player that puts up 25 a night with close to a 60 TS% that can dominate a game on either or both ends of the court on any given night.
I would say Jokic is a quite a bit better how, but if anything the gap is likely to narrow over time assuming Porzingis gets stronger, moves to C, remains healthy enough to stay on the court, and has the ability to learn. He’s still sort of like a rookie even though it was his 3rd year.
Jokic
ORPM +2.59
DRPM +1.72
RPM 4.31
KP
ORPM +.86
DRPM +1.89
RPM 2.75
@29
+1
We’ll just have to disagree then. Frank has shown enough playmaking and vision to me that warrants him playing PG right now. The handle and shooting can improve so we’ll just have to see how much he improves there.
Here is a list of every teenager to play in the NBA. As you can see, the vast majority of them sucked. Some continued to suck, some became decent players, some became great players. The point is writing someone off because of a bad teenage season would be incredibly stupid. In other words, par for the course for our Knickerbockers.
Let the record show I was Frank-skeptic leading up to the draft, but it’s really not hard to envision him becoming a plus shooter, plus defender, and above average playmaker. That would be a fine return on the 8th overall pick. I have no idea if it will happen or not but writing him off in favor of Emmanuel fucking Mudiay would be ridiculous.
Well, the good news is that Frank will have all of this year to show something. I doubt that he gets 5-6 years, not with this organization.
Knickerblogger: where the posters complain about how the Knicks never patiently rebuild while simultaneously giving up on any young player who isn’t immediately good.
I wasn’t a Frank-skeptic, per se. But I did not want the Knicks to draft him. I didn’t trust us to be competent enough to develop a 19 year PG prospect who would require patience. I predicted that if we drafted him, he’d eventually be plucked by a smart team as a buy low candidate and he would develop somewhere else. I haven’t seen anything to change my mind.
We would have been better off drafting Smith and letting him run amok. I actually like Frank more than Smith, but the *knicks* would have been better off with Smith. Because the Knicks are stupid. We’d have been patient with Smith because scores points. We’re probably going to trade Frank for 20 cents on the dollar because all he does is defend multiple positions well, exhibit intelligence and selflessness, and have excellent court vision. Those are solid traits for a 19 year old PG prospect, but not ones we value.
There’s one poster who is kind of doing this with most everyone else telling him it’s dumb. Chill out.
It would be easier to chill if the Team President, GM, and Head Coach didn’t all seem to be on the same page as that one poster.
I honestly would not be surprised to see Frank traded this summer.
EDIT: actually yes I would… first we’d have to bury him on the bench behind three other PGs for 4 months, THEN we could trade him when he has no value.
From Zach Lowe:
I love “Unikornet”
@38
It’s also a bit worrying when we have a team where the GM, the president and the Head Coach are closer to the three stooges than to a competent front office.
I hope they trade Ntilikina + a pick to the Spurs for Tony Parker and we watch him dominate opposing PGs for a decade with Kawhi.
You expect to get a word champion that cheaply? 🙂
that’s some pretty eloquent, measured and well contained angst and anger that harvey let out there…
considering our issues aren’t just with a player’s injury, or a slumping team, nor questionable coaching staff, but, begin with a bad FO and ownership – not a whole lot of cause for optimism…
and, still we’re here – trying to imagine and conjure different scenarios where the knicks can dig themselves out of this hole…
at this point my only hope is the fact that even the sun shines on a dogs ass some days…we can’t keep sucking like this forever – right?
Hasn’t Mills publicly claimed “ownership” of the Frank pick, that he wanted him rather than it just being a Jackson decision? If so, why would Frank now be viewed as PJ’s last mistake?
But then again, didn’t Mills also say that he was a proponent of Willy and had scouted him in Europe, etc? And they did (rightly or wrongly) give up on him pretty quickly.
Can the Knicks please just play and try to develop young talented players for, oh, I don’t know, say 2 or 3 years before giving up on and discarding them? That would be nice. If they don’t pan out, so be it; due diligence was given.
Hey, Denver gave Mudiay 2 and 1/2 years before giving up on him. Then give Frank at least that long? Too late on Willy.
Let me ask a different question.
Why does anyone take the basketball media seriously?
Mills did say he would have made the pick anyway, but what else was he going to say when Frank was already on the team. Could he say, “I hated the Frank pick, but now we are stuck with him”.
There’s nothing wrong with that pick other than the media and some Knicks fans demonstrating why Dolan has long believed you can’t rebuild via draft in NY. We are literally 5 months into a 19 year old kid’s development and all hell is breaking loose. lmao
I don’t have a problem with Frank getting more minutes off of the ball as long as he’s getting minutes. His point play has gotten worse as the season’s gone on. I’ve seen no real signs of high basketball IQ from him- has he made a single improvement to his game beyond a solid uptick in his 3 point %? His defensive play has dropped off too though that’s likely due to fatigue. Still, he’s 19 and has some skills- he has a decent feel for the PNR (though the fact that he can’t score out of it himself is pretty limiting), looks like he could be a solid spot up shooter, has pretty good court vision for a two and looks to be at least average for a point, and of course his defensive upside is very high. Of all the sub-25 yr old guys besides KP he still has the highest likelihood of being a quality starter. The Knicks have absolutely nothing to lose by playing him besides ticking off the vets for cutting into their minutes which really shouldn’t be a concern. Unless they’re worried that his struggles are going to do some kind of permanent mental damage to him (or there’s something physically wrong) he should be getting 20+ minutes a night at the two and another 10 at the point.
i actually think dotson has a decent shot of being a useful player… he hasn’t gotten much time to show himself but the little that he has it’s looked halfway decent….
A shooting guard-with a few rare exceptions- is just the guard who isn’t as good as the point guard. Frank was a PG for the French national team. I’m not sure what he was on the teams he played for when he was younger.
@ Hubert,
Yep.
“We’re probably going to trade Frank for 20 cents on the dollar because all he does is defend multiple positions well, exhibit intelligence and selflessness, and have excellent court vision. Those are solid traits for a 19 year old PG prospect, but not ones we value.”
@47
Well, but Z-Man has decided the u18 thing matters nothing, even though every single former u18 mvp pretty much has either made it as a player in the NBA or was / is a star in Europe.
IMO will be a huge mistake to give up on Ntilikina after half season but he clearly isn’t ready for playing in the NBA.
I think he should be sent to the G-League so we can see what he can do against lower competition. There is no shame in it. Take a step back so he could take two forward. We have four years to evaluate him.
The point is moot right now since we are unintentionally tanking and we need him sucking in the lineup.
From NBA Trade Rumors, “With solid young long-term pieces such as Frank Ntilikina, Emmanuel Mudiay, and Tim Hardaway Jr. in place, the front office – along with Hornacek – has stressed that this year is designed to prepare for the future.”
I love just random nonsense like this.
Let me see….
1. KP is injury prone, can’t rebound, and is not an efficient scorer.
2. Frank can’t shoot, dribble or finish
3. Mudiay is the worst PG in the NBA
4. Kanter is one of the worst P&R defenders in the NBA
5. Hardaway is an overpaid chucker that’s not efficient
6. Dotson can’t even earn time on this shipwreck
7. Willy, oh nevermind he’s gone.
8. Kornet, huh?
9. Everyone else is a veteran that shouldn’t be on the team
Is that a pretty good summary of the current consensus?
Some of them involve true statements, but, huh?
It’s like saying…
1. Dennis Rodman can’t shoot threes
2. Magic Johnson isn’t fast enough to defend speedy point guards
3. Michael Jordan doesn’t shoot enough threes
4. Charles Barkley is injury prone
Ya know? They’re true, but huh? What’s the point?
I think you’re possibly trying to make a statement about people being overly negative, but then you mix in normal, legitimate critiques in there that makes it all sort of a jumbled point.
@11
Expecting an eventual 15-18 ppg scorer out of Frank seems completely unrealistic based on what we’ve seen. His career high is 13 points. He’s scored in double figures just 6 times, with 4 of those being exactly 10 points. His shot creation ability is miles behind anyone who could average even 12 ppg, much less 15-18.
Luckily Jarett Jack won’t be eligible for the rising stars game.
Idk, the more I look at the Hernangomez situation, the more I think the FO traded him BECAUSE HE ASKED to be traded. Often the simplest answer is the correct one.
Aside from the THJ signing, I’m ok with what’s going on tbh. All the questionable guys like Baker, Kanter, and Mudiay come off the books at the same time and we have all our picks going forward. In a few years, it would’ve been a bummer not having 2nd rounders two years in a row (and those will be harder to just buy from now on).
KP will be back stronger and ready for more minutes at center, Frank will have improved, and we’ll have added two more high draft picks.
A lineup like Frank/TH2/Mikal/Bruno Fernando/KP will be really fun to watch! Especially if they can replace Tim.
In tonight’s Rising Stars game, in which the World team is on pace for 150+ points and 8 of 10 players have scored in double figures, Frank has 4 points.
Oh jeez, now we’re gonna use the freaking Rising Stars game to criticize Frank?
I give up
Strat’s post was supposed to be satirical but it was all accurate and made me sad
Yes, except Frank is 19 and who cares if he sucks? Oh, Z-man? The defender of the Andrea Bargnani trade? Nah, don’t bother with that.
I didn’t really defend the Bargnani trade, I only rationalized it. And I’ve learned since then.
I’m going out on a limb with Frank, which is risky, but at least I allow for the possibility that I’ll be wrong. Why don’t you go out on a limb, big guy? You like to take credit for your lukewarm support for Leonard. Go on the record for Frank. Same for you, tnfh, go on the record right now about Frank and stop calling people stupid because you’re too much of a coward to make a prediction that might come back to haunt you.
Stop getting after each other guys. Z-man can have his ideas about Frank. I am in the category of Frank is going to be a good player at the end of the day myself. But there’s nothing saying he’s going to be much of anything beyond a bench warmer which is what most rookies look like. Nobody knows within any degree of certainty. Let’s just let it play out and make fun of our front office.