I think I’m voting for Taylor Jenkins, because if you squint your eyes he looks an awful lot like a Junior Thibs. So we wouldn”t have to struggle quite as much with a completely new look on the bench.

used to have zero interest in john collins now maybe a little interest but ainge

My #1 pick going by resume only, since we don’ thave insight on interview skills, strategies or principles discussed, – is Sam Cassell.

I know it’s been said ad nauseum, and will be all summer, but it struck me again reading some pablum about the Pacers. It’s a team full of holes. Obi is still totally one-dimensional. Mathurin’s an idiot. CJ is a dwarf. And so on.

Yet led by a point guard who loves to run and run and pass and gun, and put in a system by the coach that feels like a washing machine cauldron, and most of those holes are well masked.

The Knicks parts are really damn good, but almost never did I feel like much effort was made to hide holes. Mitch playing center, but only occasionally because… KAT switching everything, against Boston. For moments now and again. Otherwise it was a big pile of misfit toys, lying around.

Maybe they’ll never fit together, but we’ve heard lots of good ideas just out of this forum, and someone who’s actually paid money to figure it out, well…?

How about Josh Hart for Brandon Clarke and either Jaylen Wells or Scottie Pippen Jr? Memphis can flip Hart or we get a third team to give them picks if they don’t want a vet.

Or better yet, if it’s possible, maybe just a sign and trade with Precious & the Washington picks for Clarke?

Bottom line I think Clarke fits very well and it seems like he would be available.

but it struck me again reading some pablum about the Pacers. It’s a team full of holes. Obi is still totally one-dimensional. Mathurin’s an idiot. CJ is a dwarf. And so on.

The Knicks parts are really damn good, but almost never did I feel like much effort was made to hide holes.

I agree.

The league is full of players with holes in their game (even Giannis can’t shoot from outside and has issues from the FT line).

We dwell too much on what certain Knicks can and cannot do.

(just for the record, not only is Bridges not an elite POA defender against very quick PGs, there are a few Cs he can’t defend either) 🙂

The idea is to build a team with enough defense, outside shooting, shot creation, rebounding, playmaking, depth etc.. so that almost every lineup doesn’t have significant enough weaknesses to be exploited easily and signficantly. If there are some weaknesses, you expect the coach to try to adjust and address them with lineup or strategy changes.

The Knicks have a ton of talent. IMO, they have more talent in their starting 5 than the Pacers, but they do have a couple of combinations that teams have exploited well enough to think there may have to be some changes. The depth is also not ideal.

I think the front office will address some of this in the off season and hopefully a new coach will adjust well before even fans are getting pissed off at the obviousness of the situation. That way he won’t get fired.

clarke is 8 of 51 on 3s over the past four combined seasons cj is on pellies not pacers but yer right we do not need a 6-3 guy next to 6-2 brunson

That first headline feels like the bot is trolling some or all of us.

KDP was a negative asset, so I think the draft assets make more sense when you figure they’d need to attach a pick to dump him.

Bane was pretty much the perfect addition for Orlando, and might make them a legit contender if everyone stays healthy. Still, as we all know, they were desperate to get Bane, and when you’re desperate, you pay a lot.

They have to hope that their desperation works out.

Alan, best line: “Still, Barrett hasn’t been a bust by any means, and he’s made a lot of money in his career, so there’s no way he can be labeled a disappointment.”

By his family…

That first headline feels like the bot is trolling some or all of us.

Who in the fucking world thinks it makes sense to write an article now about how the Knicks shouldn’t have drafted RJ?!

We dwell too much on what certain Knicks can and cannot do.

Yeah, that’s why I am much more positive about the potential with a new coach than some (Z-man, Hubert, etc). We saw KAT take over a playoff game with a never-used defensive lineup on the floor with him, for example. It seems eminently possible that a person paid to do this for a living would discover other ways of enhancing our often significant advantages and minimizing flaws. That’s what Carlisle has done very effectively. We can’t do the same?

Hart off the bench is a 6th man of the year candidate, I wouldn’t trade him for Clarke. But if you can turn Precious and the Wash. first for him, or any other legit rotation player, hell yes.

I brought it up yesterday and nobody responded, is Mikal for Naz Reid a fantasy?

Bane was pretty much the perfect addition for Orlando, and might make them a legit contender if everyone stays healthy. Still, as we all know, they were desperate to get Bane, and when you’re desperate, you pay a lot.

They have to hope that their desperation works out.

Bane’s definitely going to make them better, he’s a very good player, but they still aren’t going anywhere unless some of their highly paid young players figure out how to make 3s

Closest thing we have to Knicks news this morning, from Jake Fischer:

Sources say that the Raptors would be willing to part with either RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley for a significant roster upgrade.

It’s definitely weird that we seem to have beaten Masai pretty badly in a trade, but not sure how anyone could come to any other conclusion at this point.

Sucks that we seem to have proceeded to get taken to the cleaners by Sean Marks.

I can’t imagine watching the NBA finals and concluding “this Pacers team is full of holes”.

What you actually described is a bench full of flawed players, which is what every team in the NBA has.

The Pacers top 5 is solid as a rock. And they complement each other perfectly. They play their flawed guys 12-20 mpg against other teams’ flawed guys, which makes them easy to mask.

Our flawed guys are in the starting lineup playing 36-40 mpg against the other team’s best guys. And not only do they not complement each other but they all exacerbate each other’s weaknesses.

Hart’s unwillingness to shoot makes KAT a worse offensive player.

Brunson’s inability to defend PGs means Mikal has to play the POA all the time, which he’s not very good at, and having to do it all year turned him into a locker room cancer.

OG’s clumsiness on offense forces us to use Brunson as a ball handler much more than we should.

Mikal’s inability to shoot above the break makes it easier for teams to defend Brunson.

KAT’s terrible rim protection makes everyone else’s limitations exponentially worse.

We are a masterclass in bad synergy. Every single player on the court is worse bc of his teammates. Leon needs to fix that, not the next coach.

Before this past season I would’ve said Bridges and Bane were similar in value, maybe even slight advantage to Bridges given his availability and Bane’s injury history.

Now, a season of watching fadeaway jumpers 3 feet from the rim and being informed I was an idiot for thinking Mikal Bridges is good at the POA or against centers (guess his robust defensive reputation was accumulated strictly by guarding other skinny wings), I find myself wishing we held our fire for Bane.

Now Ja is requesting a trade according to Chris Haynes.

Hubert, I find it funny and delightful (although that might be the Covid and pneumonia talking) to see how two people can agree on all the facts and have utterly different conclusions.

I would argue that the Pacers, even the starting five, have flaws, but play in a system that perfectly masks them. Also, their bench, even more flawed as benches are, plays (mostly the same) system that equally hides their flaws against other bench mobs.

Your description of the Knicks’ flaws matches mine almost perfectly. Only I think it’s a failure because it’s been like clay thrown at the wall, rather than sculped into a vase.

Hubs, the pacers starting 5 is not perfect. Come on, dude.

I could go through each one of them and cite a weakness.

They won 50 games this year and got swept in the ECF last year. They are not some unbeatable juggernaut.

Let go of your nihilism dude. Things are fine.

Before this past season I would’ve said Bridges and Bane were similar in value, maybe even slight advantage to Bridges given his availability and Bane’s injury history.

I would have taken Bane before the season, but I would assume Memphis would never trade him, so I would think he would have taken an even bigger overpay than Bridges to pry him away from Memphis before last season.

Bane is pretty much the platonic ideal for a winning secondary player in the modern NBA. Hard nose defender who shoots the three as well as anyone in the league and is almost psychotically competitive. He’s as close to a “plug and play” player that there is in the league.

Bridges, on the other hand, was definitely available once the Nets realized they weren’t getting anyone to come there, so the Knicks just had to sweeten the pot to get Brooklyn to deal with them specifically.

Myles Turner and Siakim are both poor rebounders for PF and Centers. Haliburton often no shows in games after coming up big in previous games.

They have plenty of flaws. If they didn’t, they would have won more than 50 games.

We underrated them, now people on this blog are overrating them because they’re in some weird death spiral with this team since we fired Thibs (even though most agree it was the right move).

It’s weird to say Thibs was super flawed and didn’t use the roster to it’s best capacity but then act like a new coach can’t get more out of them.

Again, the Pacers didn’t blow it up after getting swept in the ECF last year. They stated the course and improved and are now reaping the benefits of that. We can do that same.

I said they are solid, not perfect.

They don’t have multiple weaknesses that can be exploited relentlessly like we do.

We are firmly in the “eliminate your weaknesses” era of basketball, and Leon is swimming the other way.

A forgotten “Knicksy” thing was us being thrilled that Noah went back to college so that the Bulls couldn’t take him with the #2 pick they got from the Knicks for the 2006 Draft, as the pick the Bulls were getting from the Knicks the following season wasn’t likely to be as good (it turned out to be #9 versus #2), and what happens? Noah’s draft stock dropped for some dumb reason, and he ended up being available at #9 the next season.

Grrrr…

Thank goodness the Bulls moronically traded away Aldridge, at least. They could have had Aldridge and Noah at the #4/5 for years.

It’s fair to say that the 2007 Draft had some excellent high end players, so that Noah legit should have fell a bit (he obviously wasn’t as good of a prospect as Greg Oden, Kevin Durant, and Al Horford, and possibly not a better prospect than Mike Conley and Jeff Green), but no way he should have fallen behind Yi Jianlian, Corey Brewer, and Brandan Wright.

A big part of being a Knicks fan is vividly remembering what pissed you off 18 years ago. 🙂

I would argue that the Pacers, even the starting five, have flaws, but play in a system that perfectly masks them.

We don’t agree on all the facts.

There is a difference between a flaw and a weakness.

Halliburton disappearing often is a flaw. But OKC can’t go into tonight expecting Halliburton to be invisible and game planning around it.

KAT not being able to defend is a weakness. Opponents can count on weaknesses and prepare to exploit them.

It’s definitely weird that we seem to have beaten Masai pretty badly in a trade, but not sure how anyone could come to any other conclusion at this point.

It’s actually really easy, inasmuch as almost every player in the NBA would be traded by their team if it wound up in a “significant roster update.”

I’d advise against us getting back into, “Of course it was Leon’s decision, he would have resigned if it wasn’t” territory.

There is a difference between a flaw and a weakness.

So is Myles Turner and Siakim’s poor rebounding a “flaw” or a “weakness” cause I’m confused!

Leon is swimming the other way

Ridiculous take. So he swam the other way when he traded IQ and RJ for OG?

I thought Masai was making a huge mistake to trade OG for players instead of picks. He’s way too obsessed with the “hybrid” method. Just fucking tank for a bit, Toronto, your team sucks.

It’s one thing to have a high level of basketball skill and yet still have flaws (Matheson, RJ, Obi, e.g.). It’s quite another to not really have a lot of basketball skill and be flawed as a very result of that dearth (Wing”Stop”, Josh Hart, e.g.).

(That’s in large measure, the risk with “3 and D” players. They’ve reached that bucket/status typically precisely because of a lack of pure well-rounded basketball skill.)

Raptors back in the heavily-rumored mix for Durant; that’s the likely genesis of the RJ/IQ thing.(*)

The problem with all projections/dreams with TO is that, like AD and Dallas, Ingram is never going to stay healthy other than by some black swan miracle.

(*) Ah, yes, I see that the original poster left out the final, punch line sentence of the quote:

“Sources say that the Raptors would be willing to part with either RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley for a significant roster upgrade. Several league figures with knowledge of the Raptors’ thinking have likewise asserted that they could show a willingness to move center Jakob Poeltl as well … provided that the trade in question brought back Durant.”

Including that last sentence, rather than “editing” it out rather changes the entire meaning, no?

So is Myles Turner and Siakim’s poor rebounding a “flaw” or a “weakness” cause I’m confused!

They’re not poor rebounders.

Mikal Bridges and OG Anunoby…. those are poor rebounders.

When you talk about how you think Thibs didn’t use the roster well, be prepared to see what he was holding back. When you get your mythical 5 out lineup with Brunson Deuce OG and Mikal, then you will see what poor rebounding really looks like.

Yeah, I don’t think if he winds up turning OG into Durant, the idea that the Knicks “clearly beat Masai badly in the trade” really works.

Ridiculous take. So he swam the other way when he traded IQ and RJ for OG?

He swam the other way when he combined Brunson and KAT.

So he swam the other way when he traded IQ and RJ for OG?

He drowned when he did that.

I’ll concede that if Masai turns RJ and IQ into Kevin Durant, that will be pretty impressive. He still should have tanked.

Myles Turner averaged less than 7 rebound a game this season. That makes him 21st out of starting NBA centers this season. That is clearly in bad territory for an NBA center, who is almost always the highest rebounding position on a team.

I was wrong about Siakim. He only averaged 6.9 rebounds a game this season too, but for PF that isn’t bad (which surprised me).

So to tie it all up in a bow, what the Knicks really need more than anything else is a third starter with a lot of basketball skill. They shouldn’t fall into the trap of thinking, as they appear to have, that “not missing shots” is an actual basketball skill because it isn’t — anymore than “not getting rebounds”(*) is.

Kevin Durant certainly would have met these criteria, as would have, say, Jimmy Butler at last season’s deadline. There are of course other possibilities, some more risky than others.

So there’s the proper offseason diagnosis in a nutshell. We’ll see how it goes. Not real confident that’s the FO’s diagnosis, but maybe they’ll surprise.

(*) And they sure spent a boatload of assets to acquire the “skill” of “not getting rebounds,” but I guess they got their money’s worth because they got the “skill” of “not really being able to guard good 4s” thrown in for “free.”

He drowned when he did that.

LOL, the Raptors have done nothing since getting IQ and RJ whereas we have won 3 playoff series in 2 years and made the ECF with OG starting for us.

Get real, dude.

LOL, the Raptors have done nothing since getting IQ and RJ whereas we have won 3 playoff series in 2 years and made the ECF with OG starting for us.

Assumes that wouldn’t have happened without the trade. Given 2023 and typical growth, no reason to assume that and plenty of reason not to.

It was a talent and skill leak on the day the trade was made, and remains so to this day.

Ah, well at least I got the conversation started in a way that seemed relatively benign and honest before our small core of nattering nabobs of negativism came on to start revising the narrative and moving the goalposts and twisting the logic because, well, that’s what they do. Every damn day.

Y’all enjoy yourselves, now.

“Not missing shots” is a weird way to say “making shots”. Also, that quote doesn’t say Toronto is willing to move RJ and/or IQ for Durant it says they’re willing to move them any significant roster upgrade (feel free to try and define what significant means) and that they’ll only move Poetl for Durant.

Ah, well at least I got the conversation started in a way that seemed relatively benign and honest before our small core of nattering nabobs of negativism came on to start revising the narrative and moving the goalposts and twisting the logic because, well, that’s what they do. Every damn day.

Y’all enjoy yourselves, now.

I’ve come to realize that whenever E & I talk at the same time it’s too much for the blog to handle so if he tags in I’m tagging out.

That being said, there is very little overlap between us other than that we both think this isn’t going to work. Our reasons are completely different.

My feeling that a team featuring Brunson and KAT is structurally flawed is one that is shared by many and hardly warrants inclusion in “a nattering nabob of negativism.”

At the heart of all my alleged “negativity” is always a positive message: we can win, if we correct course preemptively.

The problem is apparent. The solutions are available. I’m only talking poorly about the status quo bc there are far too many who think it can work.

We have nothing in common with last year’s Pacers. That was a structurally sound team with a weighted average age of 25.5 years old. Patience made sense for them.

Obi, Grimes, and RJ seem to have blossomed almost immediately after leaving the Knicks. You have to wonder if this played into Thibs’s firing at all, something that led to internal FO criticism months ago. Each player has proven themselves better than what Thibs could coax out of them.

It’s actually something of a promising sign that a new coach could get more out of our players than Thibs did.

Obi, Grimes, and RJ seem to have blossomed almost immediately after leaving the Knicks. You have to wonder if this played into Thibs’s firing at all, something that led to internal FO criticism.

This is definitely not true. Obi is the same basic player in Indy as he was in NYK though he has improved his shooting efficiency. RJ Barrett is getting more assists, while also turning the ball over more, and still sucks at everything else. Grimes might have improved but that might just be a small sample mirage while also playing on a Philly team that had quit on the season. And, for what it’s worth, Grimes’ DEPM tank last year from 75th percentile 15th.

RJ this season:

TS+ 95
eFG+ 96
3PAr+ 74
3PT+ 97

This is with all of his vaunted improvement and “blossoming.”

Yeah I’m fine with that guy not being on my basketball team and hoisting up 19 shots per 36. Squint your eyes at that guy all you want, he ain’t that good.

bane is #28 overall for regular season and #3 sg jjj is #25 overall and #7 pf

grimes #25 sg #160 overall toppin #19 sf #96 overall barrett #14 sg #77 overall

If its true that few/some/many/most of the players thought they should have beaten Indiana and that Thibs getting outcoached was a material reason why they’re not in the finals, – then those players will be 100% locked in next season.

Players will have to prove that they’re better than Indiana but lost the series because of Thibs/Carlyle match up.

This is why I would run it back with this starting lineup & Hart of the bench with Deuce, Kolek, Huk and Daddier until the trade deadline.

Show us.

bane is #28 overall for regular season and #3 sg jjj is #25 overall and #7 pf

Yeah, that’s why, while Bane was clearly an overpay, he’s an overpay that fits exactly what Orlando needed. A guy who is just as good of a defender as their other defenders (and is the same type of physical defender as Orlando has been using) and a guy who can shoot from three on a team that can’t shoot from three for shit, and was especially bad in terms of getting offense from the backcourt.

mathurin #15 sg #83 overall i definitely do not want to play daddier even for one minute more he is not an nba player both literally and figuratively

surprisingly little being said about okc coach going back to starting ihart with chet he did wait a little too long to do so after losing game 1 but the point is that he readjusted after making an unforced error

great targets for us are davion mitchell alexander walker santi aldama and malik beasley

naz reid would be awesome but might be overambitious we could trade them back kat for reid and naw

I don’t know this source, but this is not the fist time I’ve seen this.

Kris Pursiainen
@krispursiainen
If the Grizzlies continue to pivot, the Knicks will call about Jaren Jackson Jr.

League sources tell
@ClutchPoints
that at least one key member of the Knicks’ front office has long coveted Jackson Jr. as a trade target, sees JJJ and KAT as a ‘dream’ pairing.

What can they possibly have to offer for JJJ?

What can they possibly have to offer for JJJ?

I’ve seen indications going back to last year that the Knicks were interested in JJJ. I’ve seen indications he might be available and others that he’s not. It would probably have to be a 3 team deal and probably involve multiple players. Most likely impossible for us.

What can they possibly have to offer for JJJ

season passes to the sphere…

I’m not saying I want to undo the trade or that I think these guys are necessarily great players. I’m saying they played better and that’s a referendum on the coach.

RJ Barrett is getting more assists, while also turning the ball over more, and still sucks at everything else.

RJ this season:

TS+ 95
eFG+ 96
3PAr+ 74
3PT+ 97

This is with all of his vaunted improvement and “blossoming.”

Yeah I’m fine with that guy not being on my basketball team and hoisting up 19 shots per 36. Squint your eyes at that guy all you want, he ain’t that good.

RJ has doubled his asts/36 and added only 1 TO/36 from his last half season with the Knicks. That ends up being a 3:1 ast:to ratio. That’s a trade off you make 100% of the time.

We’d have gotten much better trade value for him if he was averaging 6asts/36 instead of 3.

Obi is the same basic player in Indy as he was in NYK though he has improved his shooting efficiency.

Yes, he has improved his efficiency. Obi went from a .589 TS% in his 3yrs for NY to a .659 TS% in Indy. This is not a small difference.

In his last season with the Knicks he was below league average in TS%. Even his 2p% has jumped .100 points compared to his final Knicks season.

Grimes might have improved but that might just be a small sample mirage while also playing on a Philly team that had quit on the season. And, for what it’s worth, Grimes’ DEPM tank last year from 75th percentile 15th.

Grimes upped his 2p% and added 2 rebounds/36 even before he went to Philly. His assists were also up, but probably not worth the TOs.

I’m not saying I want them back or that they’re good, but they’ve all been better after leaving the Knicks.

It’s definitely weird that we seem to have beaten Masai pretty badly in a trade, but not sure how anyone could come to any other conclusion at this point.

I have no idea what he’s doing.

He had OG, Siakam and VanVleet on the same team with some other decent players and blew it up instead of trying to work with it. Now all 3 of them are key pieces on VERY good teams and show no signs of being close to done. If we had Towns/Mitch, Siakam, OG, Bridges and Brunson I’d make us the favorite to win it all.

A big part of being a Knicks fan is vividly remembering what pissed you off 18 years ago. 🙂

LOL

mathurin #15 sg #83 overall i definitely do not want to play daddier even for one minute more he is not an nba player both literally and figuratively

Watch out Doogie, your mask is slipping off.

If you’re not careful you’ll be back to posting random ass stat lines from unrelated players again soon

I’d like to explain my “run it back with some tweaks”. I don’t think we’re a contender, i think we have an outside chance if things go our way. I loved the 90s and we didn’t make it to the championship. We got to the ECF this season, maybe we can surprise and get to the Finals on a run of luck. Or like the Pacers, overachieving. So yeah, if Leon can improve the team, he should do it. I’m just not seeing what to do that would improve our prospects. And trading KAT for KD certainly wouldn’t improve our prospects, except maybe in year 1. I don’t think a championship window of 1 season is a good strategy. So i think we should run it back and wait for a good opportunity to improve. KAT drives us mad watching him play defense, but he’s an All-NBA, he has value, so we have to wait for a team to think he’s a good player to trade for, maybe the player coming our way is flawed too, but in a way that works better for us. Of course, i agree that the clock is ticking, we can’t wait forever. But to make a move this season, unless it’s something not available at the moment, i’m not seeing how we can improve. But the ones who feel otherwise, please feel free to send me the trades you’re envisioning.

He had OG, Siakam and VanVleet on the same team with some other decent players and blew it up instead of trying to work with it. Now all 3 of them are key pieces on VERY good teams and show no signs of being close to done. If we had Towns/Mitch, Siakam, OG, Bridges and Brunson I’d make us the favorite to win it all.

They tried to resign VanVleet. He took the Houston offer instead (and it was a pretty big offer, to be fair). Once he was gone, they were going to have to blow that team up, and he tried to avoid doing it. It was silly.

lol, RJ Barrett’s actual AST/TO is 1.9 which is 225th best in the league. He’s ranked right near Tobias Harris, Gui Santos (who?), Goga Bitizde, Alex Len, and Alec Burks.

Who’s that last person you listed, ThisChicanery? Not sure I’ve heard of a player with that name in the Association.

I couldn’t remember how to spell his name so I took a guess. It might be Alex Burcs or Aleck Borks or Alexey Shved.

Rebuilding on the fly around Scottie Barnes only works if Scottie Barnes is good.

Alexey Shved

I would do the Obi-Wan “That’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time” bit, except that every time the Knicks under Leon/Thibs have hit some major milestone, people on social media will run out the graphic of the lineup with Shved, Lance Thomas, Lou Amundson, et al., to show just how far we’ve come.

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