From Ian Begley:
Knicks are releaving Tom Thibodeau of his duties, per league sources. Organization singular focused on winning title, feels new voice is needed. Team president Leon Rose made decision with support of owner James Dolan.
Well now. That’s fucking bold as fuck by Leon Rose.
No matter what else you think about Leon Rose, that dude has gone from being the most risk-averse dude in the business to the guy who just takes big swings like crazy. I like it (not necessarily the move, but just the willingness to take big swings. You need to have that capability to succeed in the NBA. The NBA is for the bold).
368 replies on “Knicks Fire Tom Thibodeau”
Leon is the GOAT.
I guess we’re not trading any of the core guys.
Man, I really like Leon
He must have seen what we ~all saw
Definitely the right move. Will be very interesting to read the quotes, tea leaves, FO jockeying for favor and position. The Dolan ownership and Knickerbocker FO and press/observers covering the team rarely disappoint.
From a manager of managers perspective, the first-line manager isn’t running the ship right if his mid-range performers feel comfortable enough to publicly denigrate his star performers. Will be interesting to see how much that had to do with it.
Thibs is far from perfect, but I think it is going to be tough getting a better coach (just look at the 5 previous coaches, for instance). I hope I am wrong.
Tellin ya, Malone is coming. They’re really gonna lay on that NEW YAWK shtick.
Thank god we can stop arguing about Thibs. I’m glad he got a sack of Jimmy’s money before he got fired.
In re my post above, this is now the second situation Thibs has managed wherein he has permitted (encouraged?) his players to shit on Karl-Anthony Towns.
Good riddance.
I am surprised.
Will be interesting to see what comes of this.
Beating the Celtics is something I will always be thankful to him for.
No thanks on Malone. Jokic can make any coach look good.
Leon is coldblooded. He didn’t waste any time.
Thank you for everything, Thibs. You made being a Knicks fan something to be proud of again.
Now let’s get a forward-thinking coach and turbocharge this roster!
I’m shocked…
Not that they let him go, but that they did it mere days after being eliminated.
I’m also shocked that (humor me here) that they’re in my head, thinking that if they were gonna move on from Thibs that they should do it before the summer got started. Get your ducks in a row so you can establish synergy throughout the offseason.
Good for Leon.
Happy that they decided to pull the trigger on this. They know more than we do, being privy to everything that happens in the locker room. I can’t imagine Thibs was helping there if they were willing to move on from him after making the ECF.
Now let’s get someone who can coach zone and the PnR!
I think Leon Rose is a bit more of a starfucker, so I think it’ll be Malone, but the timing does suggest Johnny Bryant.
Firing Thibs just to bring in his younger clone would make no sense.
Maybe it is Johnny Bryant? I dunno.
The fact that that’s even in there means you can reverse the names of the protagonists.
I don’t really think of this in terms of getting a “better” coach than Thibs. The hope here is that we get a coach that’s a better FIT with the personnel we have. Changing the personnel was not going to be easy, so I would think that Rose sees this as a more pragmatic way to get the team to the next level.
I wasn’t a fan of the way Thibs coached the team this year, but we did make it to the ECF and we were a consistently compelling team during his tenure. I’m looking forward to seeing what comes next.
Hardwood Paroxysm
Funny that it’s something I thought necessary, but I still feel queasy about it. A little bit in shock.
In retrospect the PJ Tucker thing was a bellwether and makes sense. The locker room was probably pretty bad.
Let’s shoot some threes!
Hiring the biggest name on the market rarely gets you blamed, ya know?
Color me shocked, but the count of “thibs has to go” comments from me and all of us were about 10,000. Question now is who do you get that is better, and what exactly are they prioritizing (use of bench, preserving starters during the season better, offensive and defensive in-game adjustment making, more creativity in plays, and better tailoring of both offensive and defensive strategy to fit THIS personnel – would be great starts)
Looks like Malone is CAA, so there’s your next coach.
Knicks fans clamoring for more 3s and wanting the team to hire Mike Malone are a weird group
Wow! I can’t believe it! I was just thinking to myself that if they were going to do it, they would have done it by now. Who’s on deck?
One thing is clear is that we can definitely retire the phrase “No way Rose will do that,” as he’s just being a total wild card now.
I just want to thank Tom Thibodeau for the five years he spent here, rebuilding the entire team and brand (with Leon Rose, of course). His teams always battled, worked hard, never quit and gave us something to really believe in, and the results were there, with only one losing season, and four big winning seasons. Remember, the team he inherited was 21-45 and coached by David Fizdale and Mike Miller. Fizdale!!! This turnaround is on him, and we should be thankful.
I also think it’s time for a new voice. Previous success does not assume future success. And the team they have now isn’t one that Thibs is built to lead.
Malone is the guy I’m least interested in, but yeah. CAA. Hopefully JD & The Straight Shot aren’t looking for opening slots.
Sigh. Maybe they won’t do it.
If it’s Malone, this was a Dolan hire. Which would be bad.
Also think Bryant might be the reason for the sudden news.
Good to see Leon willing to part with his guy. In retrospect he’s been fairly aggressive in his moves, for better or worse.
The PJ Tucker thing was an awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwful sign.
CAA represents a bunch of coaches, including Bryant and Taylor Jenkins
Malone was fired because he completely lost control of the locker room. Not convinced he’s the answer right now.
Westbrook sabotaged the Denver locker room and Malone was rightly peeved at losing his glue ‘chip guys (KCP, Brown, etc.) in favor of guys like Watson and Strawther.
I’m fine with it if it’s him.
And if people think Thibs is stubborn…well, okay, Malone actually probably isn’t as stubborn as Thibs, but they’re pretty fucking close!
This hopefully is a Mark Jackson –> Steve Kerr moment. This next hire is crucial. I did feel Thibs was the guy to get this team from bad to really good (good habits, resilient, defense,)…but not from good to great (offensive creativity, in-game adjustments, modern NBA basketball – 3p Attempts and playmaking, defense suited to personnel and modern NBA).
Rose seems to value the locker room quite a bit. I’m guessing there’s player movement coming too.
And let’s not just assume it’s Malone. I think Leon has shown he’s willing to take informed bets, not just do the obvious thing
Dolan’s behind this, not much question. He’s made way worse hires than Malone.
Most likely, once Malone came on the market, Thibs was doomed unless he won it all.
Leopard, spots.
This is what put me over the edge, more so than anything related to minutes or rotations. It was completely indefensible, and it hurt us in the playoffs. I view the lack of 3PA as part and parcel of a larger aversion to implementing a creative offensive scheme. Thibs seemed content to stick with Let Brunson Cook, which I will repeat does in fact work quite frequently, but is not a championship offense.
I’ve always admired Budenholzer’s body of work, but he seems to rub players the wrong way.
Thibs had run his course here and I think most realistic options would be an upgrade at this point, but that comes with an assumption I can only hope is accurate: Rick Brunson is not a realistic option.
Malone is the low-information fan’s choice. I don’t put too much weight on that. He’s an alternate model of Thibs — more tactically flexible, but just as rigid everywhere else. And worse with developing young players. We need at least one of Huk/Kolek/Dadiet/McCullars to hit in order to have rotation depth in the second apron era. I would be surprised if Leon chose him.
Maybe a Johnnie Bryant play? Sounded like Phoenix was zeroing in on him
had to be done…glad leon didn’t choose the “safe” path…hopefully we don’t hire a retread…get some new perspective instead…maybe its Hurley-time….
Wut?
They must have a plan..a coach in mind already. No way Leon fires Thibs this fast for nothing
I certainly hope so
OMG I don’t think a Knicks move has shocked me this much since the Porzingis trade! We must have someone in mind already. I would assume that’s Johnnie Bryant and the recent Suns news must have forced the front office’s hand.
Not surprised at all. Coaches tend to lose control of the locker room when overrated and overpaid players suck on defense and sabotage the game plan, no matter what that game plan is.
As I said on the night we were eliminated, Thibs had run his course with this team. That’s not the same as he’s a bad coach, or that he coached badly. Only that he’s run up against this team’s ceiling and nothing he bellows or preaches or schemes is going to change that. So sure, bring on a new voice that will sound great until this team hits a ceiling below a championship, and watch that guy lose the locker room. The Lakers are Exhibit A for this approach.
Hopefully neither Leon, Dolan, WWW, Brunson, KAT, or anyone else in the organization thinks that changing coaches solves our biggest problems. I’m pretty damn confident that it doesn’t.
If we whiff on Bryant or some other fresher options, Malone isn’t the worst fall back option. But I’d very much like to see some new ideas.
Not surprised. The front office had a vision and Thibs was unwilling to execute it.
It remains to be seen if the FO’s vision is reasonable, though.
Cheers, Thibs. Thank you for elevating this place. I hope you have a drink with Julius and Quickley and Donte in Valhalla tonight.
https://x.com/NY_KnicksPR/status/1929975155477856620
Thibs not even getting a cushy front office job as a thanks for his service. Then again, he gets paid either way and might not want that.
Based on common sense and Rose’s usual approach, my guess is that he’s been quietly preparing a contingency plan to replace Thibs for some time.
What surprises me is that the Knicks front office seems to have shared our critical view of Thibs’ coaching — and wasn’t afraid to make a move despite the goodwill from reaching the Eastern Conference Finals.
This move takes guts. It suggests Leon either has real job security or is ready to take full accountability with the target now squarely on his back.
When it happened, I said something to the tune of “if you genuinely need to use a scarce roster spot on an extra coach, that’s a huge indictment of the actual coach.”
It seems like we did in fact genuinely have to do that, and it was in fact an indictment of the coach.
I’m not so naive as to think this comes with no risk or that we’ll necessarily improve as a result of it, but a team in our position (i.e. very good but but a clear tier below the best team without obvious ways to improve the roster) should welcome high-risk, high-reward propositions.
I can’t imagine there’s any real chance we’re looking at Malone unless we strike out on our other options. Firing the coach that just got you to the ECF to hire a very similar coach with the same problems (and who feuded with players and his front office) is not a safe play.
Do we know enough about Bryant to feel he’s the right choice?
Dan Hurley would be an incredible choice. Could you imagine his intricate sets being run by professionals? It’s all read and react, and everyone on the same page. Holy smokes.
But he’s William Morris, not CAA, so there goes that.
100%
Given the status of the Miami Heat … could we get Erik Spoelstra? Please?
All that said, I’m definitely looking forward to a coach who will go deeper into his bench, play a more uptempo style, and bench guys who are underperforming no matter what they are paid. We might wind up in the play-in, but in spite of the successes, this team and approach was getting stale.
Head coach, Rick Brunson… COME ON DOWN!
Malone also very likely appeals to Leon/Dolan because he won a title with a shitty defensive stretch-y center. He didn’t piss and whine about it and play an offense that didn’t suit the SDSC and let his teammates shit all over the guy; he went out and won with him regardless.
He’s my number 1 choice, but is he willing to leave UCONN where he is a king…
Johnnie Bryant: He’s a consensus front-runner, but what do we actually know about him from an X’s-and-O’s standpoint? I’m drawing a blank. He has the reputational pedigree from working under Quinn Snyder, Thibs, and Kenny Atkinson, but who is he, really
Taylor Jenkins: Young, forward-thinking, available, track record pretty decent. Also lost the locker room in Memphis. If he wants to bring the wheel offense with him, I have concerns about its fit with Brunson. On one hand, it will get Brunson playing more off-ball. On the other hand, Ja, another heliocentric guard, hated it. But Ja also sucks off-ball while Brunson is pretty great. On yet another hand, Memphis had very bad turnover issues from giving everyone more touches. I just don’t know.
Mike Weinar: Rick Carlisle’s longtime protege. Also young. Designs Indiana’s ATO plays. An unknown in other aspects. But that’s the most proven way to hire a good coach these days: hire them before they seem ready. Nick Nurse, Joe Mazzulla, Mark Daigneault. The Spurs went with an unproven assistant too (Mitch Johnson) to succeed Pop. (That’s not me saying that Weinar should be the guy, but that he’s the type of guy I think will yield the biggest dividends.)
Dan Hurley: Feels like a high-risk, high-reward option. He could light a fire under the team. Or it could all blow up in our face with his massive ego.
Jay Wright: Does he even want to come out of retirement?
Maybe they say him down and said they wanted changes and he refused. Then Leon said, well, you’ve got to go then.
This is spot on and best take of the day.
Of course one of the trolls had to open his mouth about it… and I reminded him that the Lakers have had 9752 coaches since Thibs was hired. Hell, they firedthe guy that won them their last (coughcovidcough) ring.
Spo or Tyronn Lue would be perfect fits… can you still trade first round picks for a coach?
Yeah I was gonna say Lloyd Pierce would be an obvious choice, but it’s probably gonna be Bryant.
The Bubble championship is kind of fraudulent tbh
Dan Hurley will be an amazing NBA coach. He’s the rare college coach where his success is almost entirely Xs and Os. It’d be nice if the Knicks were the team that gets him.
I’m thinking the recent locker room drama piece is an undercover FO press release if we want to overanalyze it and guess at coming moves.
That’s very, very interesting. If anything can lure him away from UConn, it’s Dolan’s checkbook.
I love the idea of Dan Hurley but I loved the idea of Mikal Bridges, too. Hard to tell sometimes if you’re getting what you think.
I keep going back to the phrase “be careful what you wish for”…
Hurley lives in New Jersey and his wife didn’t want him to take the Laker job because she had no interest in moving to the west coast. Knicks are a prime location if he wants the job.
speaking of which…not sure who that hot blonde assistant is on their bench..hire her…on the nights we suck…at least there’d be a reason to tune in…
100%
Thibs has been great for the organization. He helped turn it around.
However, when they traded for Towns, they bascially went all in on running a super efficient 5 out offense because the defense was never going to be elite with Towns and Brunson sharing the court.
Thibs started losing me this year with some of his lineup decisions, lack of imagination and continued ISO and hero ball offense. We didn’t even have good plays coming out of timeouts. He was not using the talent effectively. It was either blow up the team up or get a coach that can use this talent more effectively. Rose took the easier path.
I have to admit I’m a bit shocked even though I’ve been screaming for this all playoffs. Now we have to find the right replacement.
So the consensus here is that the firing was the right move. Good. Now we just needs to agree upon the replacement – and I doubt we will.
I don’t think I’d want a guy like Lloyd Pierce, who’s been an assistant for almost two decades. I want the up-and-coming dudes, like Johnny Bryant.
So what is Jalen Brunson thinking right now.
I also thought the players only meeting after game 5 was a pretty bad sign, too. Like these guys just cut the coach out already and started making adjustments themselves.
We don’t know the Xs and Os of Bryant. He does seem to have a great relationships with a lot of players.
I’m always skeptical about these kinds of coaches (Fizz Magic says hi!) but he is popular. I’m not sure how much I endorse him, but happy to avoid a mediocre retread.
Brunson can’t be happy. This is a very high risk move that could blow up in our faces. I’m shocked they did it.
I feel like it’s Johnny Bryant. I suppose the timing could just be because the season just ended, but also Bryant is in the final 2 in Phoenix. When he took the job — really a lateral move from Utah to NYK – I thought it was sort of assumed he was the coach-in-waiting. And when Thibs got the extension, Bryant jumped ship thinking that his window was closed.
Bryant has a really good pedigree – assistant coach with Quin Snyder, then the years with us, and associate head coach with the Cavs who went from 18th in offense under Bickerstaff to 1st in offense this year, with basically the same personnel. It made me nervous for this year when young up-and-comer Bryant was replaced by super-old-guy Maurice Cheeks. And I think we saw it in the offense AND the defense this year — just unimaginative schemes on both ends. I give Thibs credit for switching things up in the playoffs, but like many have said, he could’ve devoted some time during the regular season to try different lineups and schemes defensively. And of course the offense showed no innovation at all.
Agree that Thibs is who we needed to get to this point. he will go down as probably a top 5 coach in NYK history. Hopefully Leon gets the next hire right.
Rick Brunson and Leon are still here. Maybe the new offense will require less iso
We got what we wanted!
I doubt this was a Dolan move. This is a Chip or bust team and we were thoroughly out coached throughout the ECF.
1- I doubt they did this without having a guy locked up or lined up. That being said, Johnny Bryant or Dan Hurley are my top choices here, no question.
2-The locker room must’ve been worse than we heard, I mean the biggest improvement in the playoffs we saw collectively was after the infamous PLAYERS ONLY MEETING, that plus the PJ signing are telling signs.
How much do you think we’d have to give up for Spolz? lol.
I knew something was wrong when Josh Hart was calling the team out over “agendas” mid season.
It’s hard to know what the problems were, but Bridges was taking a lot of heat for underperforming, OG gets annoyed when he’s getting frozen out of the offenses, some of them (probably OG and Bridges) seem to have issues with Towns’s defense and so on. Brunson escapes all public criticism, but I can almost guarantee players have issues with his defense and hero ball that annoy them.
Dan Hurley’s thing besides his tactical nous seems to be that he’s a hard-ass with a temper. But that honestly would mesh well with Brunson and the Nova boys, because wasn’t Jay Wright was that kind of coach too?
After a cursory review of Hawks fans’ takes on Lloyd Pierce, it’s not a pretty picture. They love him as a person but hated him as a coach by the end, even though he only had one chance and it got cut short. They saw him as a floor raiser/mentor figure on a young rebuilding team. In Indiana he’s Carlisle’s defensive coordinator. Our offense needs optimizing first.
After that Fred Katz/Edwards article dropped and was all over social media Saturday night and Towns getting ripped for days now Thibs gets fired..
Educate, there’s no way Leon did this without JB’s blessing.
Google AI likes Danny Hurley:
Dan Hurley, the highly successful head coach at UConn, has been heavily linked to the New York Knicks, especially after turning down a six-year, $70 million contract offer to coach the Los Angeles Lakers. While he remains at UConn, there are rumors and speculation that he might eventually move to the Knicks in the future, with some even suggesting it’s a “dream job” for Hurley.
This is a good point. The front office is not above engaging in shady dealings to get their guy.
“You broke my heart, Thibs, you broke my heart.”
And count me out of Mike Malone. First of all aren’t he and Thibs friends? And I just don’t see how he’s an obvious improvement. Nuggets also didn’t shoot any 3s, and he also didn’t play any young players until the front office basically took away all his security blanket vets.
Explicitly or implicitly, this became a KAT or Thibs pick one situation … and Dolan/Leon picked. They made the right choice.
Thibs has never picked his fights wisely, mostly because he’s a basketball guy and not an operator and he’s kind of dense and slow in that area. He was never going to win this one.
Just to be clear we’re giving Mike Malone credit for being able to win with the best player in the NBA?
You gotta make yourself available to play the field.
It may be a nitpick but I think Leon should have had the decency to face the media & take questions after making this announcement instead of just issuing a statement. That’s just not his style, though.
Also very uninterested in Mike Malone.
Johnny Bryant and Dan Hurley seem like the best options from what I’ve read. And I wouldn’t hate Mike Budenholzer (but I wouldn’t be excited, either).
This will be the biggest thing to watch under the new coach assuming Towns is staying here. How the Brunson/Towns duo works.
https://x.com/BackAftaThis/status/1929982436013715487?s=19
Epic rant by Mad Dog ripping Dolan for firing Thibs.
Remember those slow-day hypotheticals from maybe like four years back when there was free-style Knickerblogger discussion and some of us said that if hypothetically there was a situation in which it ever came down to Thibs or KAT, our response would be, “Thanks for your service, Coach”??
That hypothetical became reality today.
“Explicitly or implicitly, this became a KAT or Thibs pick one situation … and Dolan/Leon picked. They made the right choice.”
He (pretty confident Dolan was not involved beyond okaying paying Thibs many millions for nothing after extending him at Leon’s behest) made the right choice for the time being. There’s still another choice to be made: keep KAT as a $50-60M per year player or trade him while he still has value. I will continue to strongly advocate for the latter. Hey, seemed to work out pretty well for Minny!
I was about to post earlier that I think Thibs has to be replaced, but it’s sad to see him go. Even more than Leon, he made this team respectable again and I appreciate him for it and wish him the best of luck.
“How the Brunson/Towns duo works.”
Let me save you the suspense. It doesn’t.
I’ve never ignored a link so fast.
Epic nonsense.
“Everyone who knows anything about basketball knows that Indiana had better players and more of them. Much more of them. Much more.”
OK, Mad Dog.
While I share in the gratitude for what Thibs has accomplished, I have no qualms about him being fired, and said as much many times, including the day we were eliminated.
But more importantly, the real culprit here for falling short is Leon. He should be on some kind of leash after blowing all of those picks on Mikal and extending Thibs just before firing him. I think he deserves more time, but he’d better right this ship soon.
His thesis is that James Dolan forced Leon to do this against his will. “Rose doesn’t have any power there.” “Everybody knows that Rose had nothing to do with this.”
maybe the idea is to reunite giannis with budz did he like playing for him
My favorite line was Mad Dog saying Dolan doesn’t even know who George Mikan is!
Isola is throwing out there Jason Kidd as a possibility.
LOL I actually do remember those.
“The hope here is that we get a coach that’s a better FIT with the personnel we have.”
My hope is that we create a roster full of players who are a better fit with each other, and on both ends of the court. Until that happens, this is just aesthetics.
Isola?? BBA, I’m surprised.
This doesn’t help Thibs. You have to be flexible and try better lineups
Isola has become a total troll.
Budenholzer’s offense strikes me as a better fit, but he also ran drop in Milwaukee. Has he run a different defense elsewhere?
i am surprised that you think jenny boucek is hot
i do not think anyone has mentioned jvg yet he is coaching with the clippers but his time as an hc might have passed him by
Lol
A load of hot air
Really? You didn’t think a more prepared team/coach couldn’t have got past the Pacers?
Malpractice.
as someone who banters about things with stephen a i cannot take anything that mad dog says seriously in the least
Seeing how most of the talk online is “lolKnicks,” I’m glad again that this blog exists.
“You can a guy who took you to 51 wins and the ECF? Lol”
Thanks for the analysis, pal
Leon has *some* power, it’s a massive overbid to say that he has “none,” but I have little doubt the formulator of this decision was Dolan.
That said, Thibs probably dramatically lessened Leon’s desire to fight for him with all the dissension (*) and the KAT-bullshit that came out in the media and in the huddles over the past week. Wearing out even your allies is vintage Thibs, though. Leopard, spots.
(*) Dolan himself hates discord on his teams. He personally sat in on the Rangers’ exit interviews to make sure the players didn’t speak freely to Drury the GM, whom most of them can’t stand. When Dolan hears of dissension, he picks a side and sticks with it, no matter how stupid his choice is. He chose Drury. He didn’t choose Thibs.
I can’t imagine anybody listens to Mad Dog for actual analysis but he still sounds hilarious when he goes on rants.
One was led to think that the FO, coach, and best player were all aligned and were methodically building. One might also argue that Thibs deserved another year with an improved roster to his liking, as he was the one who quickly brought the Knicks back from being the laughingstock of the NBA and made us one of the best teams in the league. What is done is done, however. The corporate world is relentless.
The way this coach was quickly sent packing, and the ensuing uncertainty, make me pray the Knicks are not about to enter another long period of decline, intrigues, and backstabbing like the one that had traumatized us for two decades. I hope I am wrong, I hope they have a serious plan, and I hope the new coach will take us forward, not backwards. Hurley and Bryant seem like intriguing options but who knows what’s in the mind of decision makers.
Pat Riley just got a note from Spoelstra….”I resign as HC of the MH!”
After doing some basic research on Hurley… Is KAT smart enough to run his offense?
A good coach should be able to adjust, but he runs a pretty complex scheme and complex schemes haven’t been KAT’s forte.
Hires I’d be excited about:
Hurley
Bryant
Spo (somehow)
Hires I’d not be excited about:
Malone
Pierce
Hires I’d be meh about:
Jenkins
Bud
Here’s hoping it’s the first group and not the second.
Stephen A and the rest of Windbag Talking Head Hot Take Nation hates the Thibs firing.
Make of that what you will
Rama, the issue is what is meant by “prepared.” I think our team was plenty prepared, which is why we got as far as we did. Would another coach have had us “prepared” enough to get home court? To win a tough first round series? To knock off the defending champs? With this roster and the same guys missing the same number of games?
Color me skeptical.
Somebody who knows at least a little of what happens behind the scenes says that they heard Chris Quinn’s name come up a while ago. Just to add to the mix of potential assistants.
“Make of that what you will”
Makes me think even more that it was Dolan.
If this was Leon’s idea, he would have laid some groundwork for it — strategic leaks, etc — to get people talking about the possibility for a bit, getting some people in the press to say “Hey, maybe it makes sense,” and then after the world knew it was a possibility and that he was chewing over his tough decision … doing it.
Dropping it in like the anvil on the Coyote with no warning is vintage Dolan.
What about Chris Quinn?
Oh bullshit.
We were so prepared with homecourt that we lost it immediately by continuing to play the worst starting lineup in the playoffs when up 14 with 3m left.
We were so prepared that we ran a switching defense for the first time in game 89 vs. the defending champs.
We were so prepared that we went 9 deep for practically the first time in must-win games that we didn’t win.
What we were prepared for is our 4th consecutive playoff exit with homecourt, which is exactly what happened.
Greatest contrary indicator ever!
1. The most likely outcome is improving the bench.
2. The desired outcome is adding a 3&D player that’s an upgrade over Hart in the starting lineup so we can play a true 5 out offense.
3. The best possible outcome would be adding a 3&D PF that could help protect the paint and rebound and then slide OG back to his natural position at SF.
How we do #2 or #3 is above my pay grade.
For what it’s worth cpthefanchise [Knicksfantv] says the Knicks front office sees Malone as a younger Thibs and they have no interest in him..
Hmmm…wonder why we had home court in the first place…
Even if this is justifiable, even if this is smart, I have to say I don’t like the direction Leon has been heading in. Ever since he traded Grimes for Bojan he has been slowly chipping away at the fabric and the culture that Thibs built. Losing Hartenstein was a tough beat but you didn’t have to abandon the whole concept.
Bridges at least seemed like a good fit (a perfect fit, even). But once you traded for KAT you buried Thibs. I’ll take a player over a coach any day of the week but it’s not just Thibs that went out the door with that trade. We sacrificed the whole identity and style of a beloved team for offensive firepower.
And you know Leon has always been enamored with one-way guys whose defense makes them very hard to play: Obi, Rose, Kemba, Fournier, Cam, Brunson, Donovan Mitchell, Bojan, KAT.
Of course he traded for OG, too; I’m not saying he only likes offensive firepower.
But you have to admit when you look at all those guys, it makes you wonder if he actually understands how defense works. It also makes you wonder if the smartest man in the organization didn’t just get shown the door.
In addition to a stretchy center who couldn’t play defense, Malone also had a Josh Hart in his ‘chip team’s starting lineup — Kentavious Caldwell-Pope. TS% .598, USG 14.1, good defender, glue guy. He hated when the FO let KCP walk and rightly so.
Not sure whether he’ll get the job, but his interview prep notes write themselves.
Thibs lost me for good with how he mismanaged Game 1 of the Pacers series. The final seven minutes were inexcusable — the moment of truth arrived, and Thibs stayed obstinate, refusing to adapt even as it became clear what was working.
It reminded me of Willie Randolph at the end of the 2007 Mets season — clinging to his script, unwilling to use Humber or Pelfrey out of the bullpen while everything unraveled. That same mix of stubbornness and lack of a Plan B.
Back then, the Minaya-Wilpon Mets were too incompetent, too scared, and too cheap to do the right thing. They let Willie hang on a half-season too long. Leon Rose didn’t make that mistake. And I’m thankful for it.
That’s World Wide Wes talking.
The same douches make fun of Thibs every year for his rigidity.
Because we minmaxed regular season wins instead of giving ourselves more and better options like Carlisle did. How did that work out for us?
We already have an upgrade over Hart for #2. His name is Deuce.
#3 isn’t gonna happen because those are some of the most valuable players in the league and we don’t have the assets.
It’s really weird to blame the Grimes trade on Rose when Thibs put Grimes in his doghouse for some reason.
It’s worth noting that Thibs was, what, something insane like the third longest-tenured coach in the NBA, right? Only Kerr and Spo have been with their teams longer. NBA coaches mostly are hired to be fired.
The Knicks had homecourt in the playoffs because they have a very good team with a bunch of very good players.
Jokic is a top 10 offensive player of all time, and his defense looks like prime Ben Wallace compared to KAT. Stop with this ludicrous analogy.
*Top 1
The reason was Donte DiVincenzo outplayed him. Grimes didn’t actually go to the dungeon. He went to the bench and was a key reserve who got a lot of minutes and played well off the bench.
Besides even if you had to trade Grimes the point is look at the guy he traded him for: a one way offensive player who was unplayable on defense.
We seem to collect more of those guys than the average team, don’t you think?
Obi – terrible pick
Rose – Thibs security blanket, not on Thibs (and also a good move)
Kemba – we had no PG, defensible except for second year
Fournier – net neutral, for awhile at least
Cam – high reward if it worked, but predictably didn’t
Brunson – great move, obvs
Donovan – great player, didn’t acquire him, so why is he on the list?
OG – defense first, good trade
Bojan – short term help and trade bait, hated the trade, backfired though his contract was in fact used in a trade
Bridges – a 2-way player and seemingly perfect fit, not so in reality, but certainly not “one-way player” (“no-way player”?)
KAT – a lateral move that made sense given the Julius situation and Mitch out, not about him being offense first as much as “available starting center”
I don’t think your argument is supported by the full list. Not saying all the moves are good (as noted above, they weren’t), but he’s clearly not a “pointzzz” guy
Jeff Van Gundy?
To me, the test is simple: Was there a plausible coaching scenario in which this series ended better than a six-game elimination, having home court advantage? I believe the answer is clearly yes. If Thibs had managed the series even marginally better — just by incorporating a few of the in-game adjustments that were obvious in real time — we likely would’ve pushed it to at least seven games.
To me, this points to untapped potential. A better coaching performance could’ve taken us to the Finals. You won’t convince me that a lack of talent is what held us back — it was execution and decision-making, not roster limitations, that cost us.
no way on Rick Pitino…but his son might be a decent choice…i think he has the same career winning % as thibs…
thibs…highest reg season win % of any nba coach (300 games plus) in history to never make a finals appearance…some guys are made for regular season…we want someone who gets it done in post season…
Seth Davis is virtually certain Jay Wright’s a no to get back into coaching.
I was criticized by certain fans of an particular MLB athlete for making the same point. I am glad you see things similarly.
76
Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.
I think it is.
The argument isn’t Leon only acquires offensive players.
The argument is that Leon seems less concerned about one-way players than most contenders.
Instead of going through the long list of one-way players Leon has acquired, I would say try making a list of all the one-way players Boston and OKC have acquired to see the difference.
The Pacers (Halliburton, Obi) and Cavs (Garland, Mitchell) have some appetite for them, too, clearly. But we seem a little more open to wrecking a team defense for scoring.
Given that it’s going to be tricky to make significant roster changes it makes sense to try a different coach
looks like we were wrong about them already knowing the successor head coach they are looking
This is, objectively, a terrible move and that is why you all are suddenly ambivalent about it.
This is not going to be a Jackson/Kerr situation, the Knicks simply don’t have the best roster in the league, or in the east, or north of the Mason Dixon line, or anywhere outside of the tri-state area. Kerr kind of had that going for him.
Firing a coach after over-achieving his team to the best results in 25 years, including a shocking upset over their biggest historical rival sets an impossibly high bar. Anyone with options should clearly choose whatever is behind door #2.
Someday you all are going to learn that coaches just don’t matter much. That’s why they are fungible. Meet the new boss, fire the new boss in 3/4 years when he’s just like the old boss.
Hurley strikes me as very much a college coach, but you can’t deny his success so it wouldn’t be a crazy hire.
WOW!
He underutilized the players on his roster, he decided to go against data and play the horrible starting lineup forever, he never played 5 out. Boston series was the Celtics choking..
Rose has done a lot of highly suspect things. It’s pretty amazing that we almost made the finals despite the mistakes. I think what has saved him is that he hasn’t made any HUGE mistakes.
If we still had Grimes (a deal I hated endlessly) we might have beaten the Pacers. Not that he’s so good, but he’s enough of a threat from 3 to not be left open and a solid enough perimeter defender. We could use exactly that.
That might be true, but here’s the flaw in your logic. I said the same thing back in 2007 when people used this argument to justify Minaya’s decision not to fire Willie Randolph after missing the playoffs by one freaking game — and I’ll say it again now:
Even if coaches are largely fungible, this team was two wins away from the Finals and four wins from a championship. In a situation that tight, even a minor coaching improvement could’ve made the difference.
We’re not talking about rebuilding years — we’re talking about a once-in-20-years window. That matters.
That’s not why he was fired, though. That’s just why you wanted him fired.
Besides, that’s still a terrible precedent. Every objective observer know the Knicks don’t have a championship roster. If they’d won it all this year it would have been a magic act. You can’t fire a guy for not being a magician. This isn’t Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets.
Maybe Isiah Thomas and Steve Mills are still silent consultants via World Wide Wes. 😉
Donnie shouldn’t you be on a Pacers blog discussing the NBA Finals instead of continuing to post on a site about a team you apparently are no longer a fan of?
No, I don’t think that. There are a lot of players in the league who only play offense (and vice versa). When you’re dabbling around the margins it’s hard to add two way players since those are the players with the highest demand. I’d say Rose’s only real mistake(s) has been almost completely ignoring the draft.
I mean, just leaving in the lineup that turned a close game into a near blowout in game 1, which is a decision basically every coach in the league would make, and we’re probably prepping for game 7.
I strongly disagree with that take. Firing Thibs was the right move. The ambivalence you’re seeing isn’t about the firing itself — it’s about the uncertainty surrounding his replacement. That part isn’t as clear-cut.
Most here recognize that Thibs wasn’t the right man to take this team further. What we don’t know yet is who the right person is. That’s the real tension here.
BINGO.
I did not think that I would be back on this Board so quickly, but Thibs getting fired gives me things to say:
1. Thank you, Tom Thibodeau. Knicks went to the playoffs 4 times in 5 seasons under Thibs, including the first trip to the ECF in 25 years.
2. It seems clear that the FO wants the coach to implement strategy that Thibs can’t or won’t.
3. I do not have a well-grounded opinion about who should be the next coach.
4. I do have a well-grounded opinion that the Knicks need to decide whether they want to move forward with the Brunson/OG/Bridges/KAT core. If yes, the Knicks need a coach who has a strategy to address the defensive deficiencies of Brunson and KAT while playing them both at crunch time. If no, the Knicks need to identify (a) what they can do to improve the roster and (b) a coach who will maximize that new roster.
I mentioned that their city smells like farts and they kicked me off it.
Someone take my Knicks Fandom card lol.
Not once have I considered Johnny Bryant. Oof. It just occurred to me that he was a Knick assistant for most of Thibs’ tenure, then he went through that great season with Atkinson and the Cavs. He’s probably ready, and that’s probably the reason Leon made this move, given that he’s a candidate to coach the Phoenix Blotted Out Suns
Johnny Bryant immediately comes off the board if Matt Ishbia picks him..
No argument here. Last year was low key one of his worst drafts. We had four picks between 24 and 39 and there were a lot of good players taken in those spots.
If I seem “suddenly ambivalent” it’s not necessarily because I think Thibs needed to stay. It’s because I don’t trust Leon to make the right choice after his last round of moves.
Mismanagement of the roster seems to be the common theme
https://x.com/KnicksFanTv/status/1929991365133320553?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
A+ callback.
Anywho, we all follow this team pretty closely and know a lot of the nuances. Seems that Thibs was fired for a couple of reasons: locker room issues that spilled out into the media and necessitated PJ Tucker coming in as a quasi-coach to restore some order, and a bad fit with the personnel, which was not at all well-suited to play drop defense. Add in the Knicks’ low 3PAr despite a roster that would seem to suggest a more perimeter-oriented offensive style and the cataclysmic collapse of Game 1 of the Pacers series, and that was ballgame.
Thibs had a long run here and did a lot of good, and I figured he’d be back next year. The FO made a gutsy call to fire him, probably because it’s easier (and only costs James Dolan’s money) to fire a coach than it is to make wholesale personnel changes in the age of the apron and all that.
Maybe you might feel that Thibs was done dirty, but again… he had a good long run here. Probably did a lot for his legacy. He should hold his head high. If he doesn’t coach again, it was a good career. Onwards and upwards.
I 👁 u leon…
and I’m likin’ wat i see…
Maybe, but if we’re interested in him I would assume the team has already reached out and, all else being equal, this is a way better situation than a Phoenix team that was a disaster last year and their only realistic move is to trade Durant or Booker.
I just remember a little over a year ago when the Knicks were thriving and Leon was peaking, the praise he was getting after bringing in Donte and OG was that he knew the importance of fit, that he understood the system and style of his coach and he got him players who were perfect for it.
We are a long way from that.
This collection of players made no sense from the start. It’s talented but poorly conceived and ill fitting. Thibs probably exacerbated the problem, but I’m not sure anyone is going to turn it into championship material.
Don’t get me wrong, system coaches work best in college, as you can, for the most part (if you’re a good team), pick the precise best fits in terms of players who can play your system, but I think system coaches can succeed in the NBA, as well. Some of the best system guys, like Jeff Van Gundy, came from the college ranks (Jeff Van Gundy’s systems were a big part of Rick Pitono’s success in Providence). Brad Stevens was also a big system guy who had success in the NBA. I think Hurley’s system can succeed in the NBA.
A team like Sacramento or Washington should hire Thibs with no hesitation. He took a joke of a franchise here and made us respectable. His teams play hard and take the game seriously. He gives fans something to be proud of every night.
That’s got real value for unserious franchises. If you need your floor raised, hire Thibs and be grateful.
“Greatest contrary indicator ever!”
…next to everything ever posted by Pagliacci.
Maybe Leon fired Thibs so he could coach the Wizards so we can actually get that first round pick.
Kinda weird that no names have really made their way to the reporters from the Knick FO.
Looking very much like a Dolan operation. Wonder if Me7o’s in his ear. The possibilities are endless with that guy. The rational mind shudders.
I’d like to see Monty Williams as an assistant, although not a head coach. If we can pry him away from TMI Episcopal’s boys basketball team… former Knick Hubert Davis would be interesting, but I can’t imagine is being discussed.
nailed it right there…
ageism is real for a reason…it’s nothing personal…not a bug, but rather just a component of life…
sort of though like going out and getting the updated version for whatever device it is you need to use…
hopefully we get word shortly that johnnie bryant, or some other top assistant, is going to help get this team to that next level…
Shams: Meetings over last 24-48 hours including Leon, Dolan, and players. Decision made.
Would love to know who the players were.
Actually the Wizards could hire Thibs and sign Julius Randle and they’d probably make the play-in in the East.
Its pretty funny that most of the Knicks fans and blogs are pretty happy about this while the national media, including some Knicks beat writers, are pretty much ripping the Knicks.
“Because we minmaxed regular season wins instead of giving ourselves more and better options like Carlisle did. How did that work out for us?”
Case in point re: Pagliacci talking out of his ass (as per usual.)
Pags whines that Thibs maxes out regular season wins, which by extension means that the roster wasn’t as good as the record. Then Pags turns around and criticizes Thibs for losing to teams with fewer regular season wins, even though the reason the Knicks had more wins was because Thibs maxed them out, i.e. they would have had fewer wins with another coach.
Just wondering, did Mazzulla max out regular season wins? Did Atkinson? Did Udoka? Did Redick?
But hey, the Pacers finished one game behind the Knicks, so even though they had the best record in the NBA for much of the second half of the season and destroyed a team that won 64 games, and were coached by a guy who everyone here believed was a better coach than Thibs, the only logical conclusion was that Thibs is a terrible coach who couldn’t prepare his team to beat weaker opponents.
“Actually the Wizards could hire Thibs and sign Julius Randle and they’d probably make the play-in in the East.”
Would that give us a first rounder?
yeah, that sounds a lot like a personal thing…maybe shake your mind and body together, and it’ll all be alright…
okay then, since we’re getting personal E – how are you on like giving couples therapy?
you’re a pretty sharp guy, you gotta have this cohabitation thing on lockdown…
Basically my issue is – i pretty much plan every time I leave the house at least a day to a week in advance…yeah, it’s a bit rigid…
partnering up means reacting – a lot…and, shit – the air is beautiful up here, but hard to move to another’s rhythm…
tell me something good E…
EDIT: you know, z-man, you may have an answer too…
heck, I have a feeling there’s a bunch of you who’ve worked hard on partnering up successfully…
not so easy…
According to Begley (who I just listened to on NBA Radio) Leon had the green light to fire Thibs any time he wanted to, going back at least a year and a half.
I love how nonsense betting lines are for something like who the Knicks head coach will be. That said, here ya go, from BetOnline.ag:
New York Knicks Next Head Coach
Mike Malone
1/1
Jay Wright
3/2
(+150)
Jeff Van Gundy
6/1
Chris Quinn
7/1
Taylor Jenkins
8/1
Danny Hurley
9/1
Rick Brunson
12/1
Mike Brown
14/1
Mark Jackson
16/1
Steve Nash
22/1
James Borrego
33/1
Johnnie Bryant
40/1
John Calapari
45/1
Mike Budenholzer
50/1
Mike D’Antoni
50/1
Sam Cassell
66/1
There are very valid basketball reasons to do this, but … sigh … confidence is starting to wane that those were the actual reasons.
Players somehow got Dolan’s ear. No names floated. Shams was just on ESPN and didn’t have a single name he could even speculate about.
Dolan’s fingerprints are all over the exit meetings for both the Knicks and Rangers. He hasn’t remotely left the decisions to his GMs.
Knicks currently have the 2nd best odds to win the 2026 NBA Finals!
Coach Rick Brunson would be amazing.
I’m not too worried about no names being floated for the coaching replacement. Leon is a secretive MF.
Pretty ironic that the Knicks seem to hold their head coach to higher standards than the Yankees do for Boone.
The rational mind shudders at the thought that Dolan demanded that Leon fire Thibs after just agreeing to pay him $30 million.
The rational mind is calmed by the supposition that Leon politely asked Dolan if it was okay to fire Thibs after the best Knicks season in 25 years and after Leon just blew $30M extending him and Dolan shook his head and said okay, but your next coach better get us to the finals or you’re outta here.
E did Dolan actually conduct exit interviews with the players? You have a source for this?
I could actually see this being Dolan if players like Mikal and KAT complained to him directly.
I’m genuinely baffled that any reasonably informed fan could say that after this postseason. We were two games away from the NBA Finals—two. And one of those was a historic collapse at home that we basically gave away. This is objectively a championship-caliber team right now. Now. As in today.
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6401030/2025/06/03/knicks-coaching-candidates-michael-malone-johnnie-bryant/
List of potential candidates by Edwards and some other Athletic writers. The non-retreads (either guys who have never been head NBA coaches, or did it only briefly) include Dave Bliss (OKC’s top defensive assistant), James Borrego (who’s been a NOLA assistant since getting fired in Charlotte), Micah Nori (Chris Finch’s top guy in Minnesota), Chris Quinn (Spo’s number two), Sean Sweeney (top Dallas assistant), and, of course, Johnny Bryant.
Just hoping that if we go that route, we don’t wind up with Fizdale 2.0.
I believe Begley said that there were exit meetings with the top players that included the front office and Dolan.
“Dolan’s fingerprints are all over the exit meetings for both the Knicks and Rangers. He hasn’t remotely left the decisions to his GMs.”
Maybe it was Dolan’s secret buddy Cam Reddish complaining that Thibs never gave him a shot…
Oh boy…
Saturday, in a 8-hours span my sport soul was crushed.
First the UCL’s Final loss, then the Knicks eliminated in the ECF (and the Yankees were wiped out by the Dodgers 18-2).
Sunday I could barely speak 🙂
Today, in a 4-hours span, Simone Inzaghi resigned to chase Saudi money and Thibs was ousted by Leon in an unexpected gutsy move* (alas it looks like Boone will never get fired no matter what).
I’m raising from my ashes.
In my last post I wrote “I would take a sabbatical if Thibs was still here next season**”, I won’t change my position.
I think it was the right move.
I think it was the right time.
I’m happy Leon did it and I feel relieved.
Random thoughts:
– As a whole, I’m grateful to Thibs.
He took a laughingstock, built a winning culture, took us back to respectability and beyond (last year’s team without injuries? oh my…).
So while I can’t say he kept his best for the last, I want to thank Tom Thibodeau for a lot of regular season wins, a lot of playoffs games and tons of emotions.
He put us on the map again and he was, by far, our best coach since JVG.
– I think Thibs is a very good coach, a “high-floor/medium-ceiling” guy who needs the right roster to work well.
This roster simply doesn’t fit his beliefs, Leon served him a bad hand, way out of his confort zone, and it showed.
– This move alone doesn’t guarantee success.
Leon *real* job starts now.
He needs to find the right coach and tweak (or reshape) the roster.
Meanwhile our two stars are the worst defender in the Association at their respective position, we gave up 5-firsts for an average guy*** and the locker room looks broken or at least cracked.
– My tiers for the new coach role:
Too Good To Be True: Spo, Ty Lue, JVG
Good: Johnny Bryant, Dan Hurley
Neutral: Bud
Meh: Mike Malone
No: Lloyd Pierce
Disgusted: Rick Brunson
* Thibs will land on his feet, Dolan still owes him a lot of money.
** I think my issues with Thibs are known, no reason to repeat them here.
*** Maybe a different offensive system and a different defensive role could help him?
Spanoulis&Freak 100$
And what do you think was likely to happen there?
You have to win four series. We won two. That’s not close, that’s halfway.
Shams just reported the same thing on ESPN.
Dolan was involved. There’s zero doubt.
Interesting. I’m not going to go “zero doubt” like E but I think we have to accept that the possibility that Dolan may have made this call.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=osY0NWe4M0w&pp=ygUvRWxpdGUgU3BhY2luZyBJc24ndCBKdXN0IEFib3V0IE91dHNpZGUgU2hvb3RpbmfSBwkJsQkBhyohjO8%3D interesting Johnny Bryant video
He starts speaking at 7:30
Thank you. This is exactly the moment I predicted after we beat the Celtics—I knew the usual crowd would come back with the same tired arguments.
I don’t know what would’ve happened in the Finals, just like you don’t know what would’ve happened there—because we never got the chance.
And if we’d lost to the Pistons, I can already hear the same logic being applied in reverse: “What do you think would’ve happened against the Celtics? We’re not a championship-caliber team—no way we could’ve beaten them.”
This is exactly why a certain segment of people here can’t ever admit they were wrong—the goalposts always move. Even if we had won it all, they’d find a way to shift the narrative, because the outcome has to match their preconceived storyline.
another way to look at it is that a team needs to win 16 playoff games to get a championship and we won 10 so that is more than half it is 62.5 percent of the way there
The dumbest conspiracy theory of all is that by pinning it on Dolan, it’s suggested that Leon desperately wanted to keep Thibs in the fold. Is this actually what E is suggesting? That Dolan overruled Leon?
But if one believes that Leon actually wanted to fire Thibs, you know, the move that everyone here including me wanted Leon to make, who gives a shit whether Dolan was in the room or not?
I mean, this is the silliest Leon-bashing conspiracy theory ever.
Here’s my conspiracy theory: Leon wanted to fire Thibs for a while now, and has had WorldWideWes in his ear since Thibs’ second season. But Brunson was a big fan of Thibs and Leon needed to wait until the right moment to avoid alienating his prize acquisition who just took a massive haircut to give Leon more maneuverability. Leon had to wait for the right moment to make the move, and the loss to Indiana gave him an excuse to convince Dolan to throw away his money and the latitude to placate Brunson. Leon could just blame it on his players that wanted change.
They’re called facts, Ras. Winning two rounds is literally half the job.
Yeah knicksfantv said the same thing about Malone.
no algorithm needed to excise that from the pool of interesting or useful data/words to be found…
worse yet, his voice is included in any audio form…yuch…
I read a report saying the front office suggested to Thibs to start Mitch during the Celtics series.
kind of useless intel since we won anyway without doing so
The more I learn about this, the more convinced I become that it was a “let’s fire him, and then we shall see” move. That is, it was not a seriously preplanned change with specific vision and specific coach in mind. This is dilettantism in the form or corporate plotting. If players were involved, this would make it even more unhealthy.
My fears of Knicks dark ages coming back continue. We suffered enough since JVG had left. Whatever the fuck Tom Thibodeau was, we had stability and progress with him at the helm and the happy moments were countless. I don’t know what to expect right now.
I think if we see decisive action quickly and it’s a smart move, like Dan Hurley or even Johnny Bryant, that would suggest that Leon made this decision and had been considering it for a while.
If this drags out, if we get turned down by our first choice, or if we end with a Thibs replacment that is very uninspiring, those things would suggest to me that Leon wasn’t prepared for this and Dolan meddled.
We weren’t many wins away from a championship, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we’re close.
I’m interested to see what a new coach can do, but there appears to be deeper problems. If nothing else, the players don’t seem to get along.
Seth Partnow had interesting comments on bluesky re: Hurley— his attitude is not suited for NBA and he would lose the locker room by mid-year. While I think this was ultimately the right move, of the guys available, I only see marginal improvement. Hoping for Spoelstra CAA miracle. Spo can do exactly what Riley did to the Knicks in the 90s.
definitely could see thibs get in to some announcing or talking head work…
he’s funny and personable when he’s not grinding his teeth or having to fidget with his fingers during post game stuff…
he’s paid, he deserves some time on the mic, sharing his basketball insight with the world…he may even do well at it…
Basically, yeah.
Malone at least keeps the floor at an acceptable level. If he’s already out, I gotta say my opinion is that the floor for this is dropping as we speak.
Never a fan of players being involved in meetings with ownership, the coach being fired as a result, and the FO seemingly having no idea where to go next. They can certainly recover, but not really confidence engendering at this point. No indication of any groundwork whatsoever being done before this happened. Entire NBA world — media, front offices, etc. — in surprise.
Bridges and Towns don’t have a history with Bryant. He doesn’t have as much of a “hometown” advantage as it might seem at first blush. (Not that that even matters with Dolan’s involvement.)
that sounds like leon has never run a business before, and he has, people leave all the time, part of the job is having replacements folks in mind…
didn’t johnnie and some of the players work closely together before…I’m thinking of jalen specifically…
Good call Geo! (BTW, how are you sir?)
I’d definitely rather listen to Thibs than Reggie or SVG.
wonder if Rick will stick around, usually not much thought given to staff, interesting situation with family dynamic…
I think this is a better move than trying to fix the roster, and Thibs lost me this season. They are probably looking at the Cavs turnaround of their roster this season (hopefully with a better end result).
I don’t think any coach can fix the defense completely, but at least we can hope that they can play a more optimized offense for this roster and beat opponents 120-110 more frequently.
Wouldn’t bother me in the least if they tried to poach the Cavs’ coach and succeeded.
Hurley is an intense guy, for sure, but there have been other intense guys who have succeeded in the NBA. Larry Brown was an intense guy who moved from college to the NBA successfully.
I very much hope you are right and Leon Rose knows what he is doing. I don’t think Brunson would backstab Thibs though. He seemed pretty honest in defending him in the interview after game 6.
I’d also remind you that the whole thing unfolded the last 24-48 hours, per reports. What planning?
It’s because we actually watch our team the whole year and know how they play in and out. These morons like Stephen A “claim” to be a fan but on many occasions forget who is on the team (see Hartenstein) and only push narratives that media pushes.
Thibs was determential to the long term goals of this team. We need to develop a bench, we need to develop young players, and we need to be flexible and try new schemes all season not just in the playoffs when facing elimination.
The supposed buzz words (Shams) are “adaptable,” “flexible,” “lenient.” If that holds — and it very well might not (*) — we can forget Hurley.
(*) Though it’s likely what eliminated Malone, if in fact he’s eliminated.
That’d be great! That would make us an extraordinarily attractive destination for players from around the league!
hello max,
I’m feeling a bit subjugated while in my pursuit of partnering, learning how to adapt, “find my space”, expand my routines…
no longer working so, i’m like a teenager, no job, high a bunch, videogaming…
I pre-plan leaving the house (gay/days in afvance), strong habit and routine, the area i am in now is much more urban than what I am used too… it causes me to get a bit rattled at times, so many cars, so many people…however, i feel a good bit of the reason why I’m here is to be with my friend, follow along, more aptly assist in her journey…
my friend, like ma, is one of those over achiever types…which is a fantastic thing, but I often feel swept along…
hmmmm, now that I think of it max, this may be a boundaries thing, or i could just keep soldiering on…
starting to believe the reason I’m still here is to simply serve others (including the dog, 3 years of picking up poop, and counting)…
some days it feels more like a “sentence” than a blessing…
sorry for whining, I guess i got the good sort of problems with that 😊
Did the meetings happen before they fired Thibs?
I think it’s reasonable that Dolan would want to be in on discussions if they’re firing their recently extended coach who just led them to the Conference Finals. It sounds like he was fired because Thibs didn’t give clear outlines of player roles. Makes sense Dolan would want to hear it directly from them. Not saying this is what happened tho
All that said, I never like it when Dolan is involved and it absolutely worries me.
Well, it’s also being said that we plan to go after a major acquisition at most and a bench upgrade at the very least, so they will also try to fix the roster.
That being said, I think Leon is always just trying to add the best players he can find, thinking that it’s the coach’s job to make it all work… and maybe that’s correct.
Look, this season was a good run, but if you look at the numbers, very few of our players had great or even good seasons by their own standards, and that’s somewhat on the coach.
Case in point re: Z-Man missing the complexity as usual. I don’t argue that Thibs minmaxed regular season wins successfully. That’s the tragedy of Thibs: he’s a try-hard who doesn’t even get the results he’s going for. We’d have probably done better on regular season wins if he leaned on the starting lineup less, and applied strategies like 5-out, switching defense, zone, or really anything that wasn’t cookie cutter Thibs ball.
Just like Old Man Coffee folds 95% of his hands in poker to minimize his losses, Thibs ends up guaranteeing that he’s a loser in the long run, because he’s so predictable and inflexible.
So there you have it. Thibs tries to minmax regular season wins, fails to even do that, and also leaves us ill-prepared for different challenges in the playoffs.
Mazzulla? Obviously not, everyone knows the Celtics coasted.
Atkinson? Obviously not, no starter played as many as 32MPG.
Udoka? I’d say he was pretty balanced.
Redick? Probably yes, they finished 6 games ahead of pythagoras
I have to say Thibs not clearly outlining his players’ roles doesn’t pass the smell test. It sounds more like something a disgruntled player who doesn’t like his role would say.
If there really is that much disharmony then it’s the right decision but it could also be a worrisome process, too.
larry brown definitely did not work with the knicks when he coached us in 05-06 he had a 23-59 record and left after one season he had marbury crawford curry rose frye and started 16 different players talk about players not knowing their roles and how many minutes they could expect
Yes, and the meetings were the precipitating event of the firing. Last 24-48 hours.
Next step in the reporting will be the players who were in the meeting. But we know players’ input was part of the process that wound up with Thibs being out.
Though I could be wrong — I was just listening to the TV — I didn’t at all get the sense from Shams that these were just garden-variety exit meetings, but meeting(s) with a different agenda.
It could also be that Dolan wanted Thibs out and just had these meetings to keep Leon in the loop or because he wasn’t 100% sure. Or wanted Leon to hear what he was hearing. Or some random nutball idea.
The Knicks had two All-NBA players for the first time in over a decade, and only the second time in almost fifty years.
I wish Dolan had been pettier and released this 5 min before Game 1 tomorrow.
My guesses:
Team Thibs:
Jalen
Josh
Team Airing-of-Grievances:
Mikal
OG
Team I’m-Cool-Man-Whatever-Y’all-Want-I-Just-Gotta-Be-Outta-Here-By-11-Cuz-It’s-Duck-Season-And-I’m-Going-Hunting:
Mitch
Despite I’m a Thibs supporter and an optimist too just yesterday said that LRose should ask Brunson about the team and act accordingly… yesterday (meaning asap)
Having the best season of the century don’t matter much if at the end you have frustration all over the team and the fans.
This shit situation needed fix and thankfully they started faster than most expected.
I don’t really believe that Brunson wanted Thibs and They fired him
Game 1 is Thursday I think.
Well the almighty algorithm heard me and immediately put this in the top of my insta feed:
https://www.instagram.com/p/DKZ9ReQtito/?img_index=1&igsh=MWNqaTR1bWJmejY3bA==
I am surprised by the move, but not appalled. Whether it will work, I have no idea. I don’t want Malone. As pointed out above, he didn’t get along with his GM, which I suspect is a red flag for Rose. Anyway, it’s more common to replace a hard ass coach with a player’s coach and vice versa than to maintain a coaching style that wore out its welcome.
But I really appreciate Thibs anyway. He has a great run and we finally had good teams to watch.
I’m surprised no one has thought of Phoenix as a team that could hire Thibs. They could use a good regular season coach. Portland coukd too, but they started to be good at the end of last season and that may have saved Billups’ job.
I don’t get the Thibs not giving players their roles thing.
Seems super clear to me.
“You ten guys — sit on the bench!”
“Jalen — dribble until you can shoot!”
“You four — watch Jalen, then try harder!”
The whole “get Thibs an assistant to coach offense” idea always seemed like a nonstarter to me because of the likelihood it would lead to palace intrigue and infighting.
Sounds like they just skipped ahead to that part without doing the “offensive coordinator” thing.
Management says “start Mitch or your fired”, Thibs starts Mitch. It has little effect on outcome. Thibs fired anyway.
Fans say “Thibs needs to be fired for playing his guys into the ground.” Players are all in great health come June 1st when season finally ends. They say yay when Thibs is fired anyway.
KB says “not playing Delon Wright and Shamet (!) significant minutes in the ECF is a fireable offense.” Thibs, amazingly, proceeds to play both those scrubs significant minutes. Outcome is unaffected. KB says “woohoo” when he is fired anyway.
Kenny Smith says “Thibs wouldn’t play 9 guys in a baseball game”. People retweet it and say lol. The next day Smith has to amend it to say “Thibs wouldn’t play 12 guys in a Canadian football game”. No one lols. Thibs is fired anyway.
You know what we Pacers fans told our coach after he led the team to their best season in 25 years? We said “thank you, keep up the good work”.
I don’t have time to search it but D-Rose said something like this after he went to Memphis a couple of years ago…
Actually the first five minutes of this video segment with Jeff Teague is really informative about Thibs (if you don’t mind listening to mumbles):
https://youtu.be/lvNlpD2HfFE?si=5RbFmuwCbyW15djR
Among other things, it seems I’m definitely wrong about thinking Thibs might work with a good assistant, at least according to someone who played for him.
“Thibs do everything. He don’t let no one do nothing. Those 5 other guys can go home.”
“He calls every play.”
“He don’t really coach you, he kinda just be like ‘damn’, ‘damn it.’”
Teague also said Thibs is running the same plays they ran in Chicago 15 years ago.
Geo, don’t worry about whining, this is the right place to do it! 😉
Chill and relax my friend, routines and habits are good, I totally get why you feel a bit off in the new neighborhood, I left the city years ago and it took me 2-3 years to get accustomed to frequent silence or bird singing, less cars, less people and no stress to find a parking spot 🙂 , I think I’d need the same amount of time if I go back to live “in the crowd” again.
And believe me, sometimes those “over achiever types” can rub you the wrong way, but the rewards could be worth it 🙂
A healthy percentage of this board has been watching basketball for over 35 years. When a coach does not pull their starters in a mid-season blowout to “guarantee” a win, but then fucks up the most important game in 25 years- they have to go. That Game 1 collapse sent me to the floor. My daughter walked in and thought something was wrong with me (she was obviously right).
FYI, the things I have heard about Bryant from people who were around the team when he was here have me rooting for the Anyone But Bryant option. I cannot say more. But it’s not great.
Oh yeah, and please get Spo by any means necessary. Stick it to Riley. I know his massive contract is designed to keep him in Miami, but Leon is a frigging agent. This is what he was placed on Earth for – screwing overconfident Basketball Executives.
Just watched a Kendrick Perkins clip with his reaction after Thibs firing and heard an interesting view by him.
He said that the era of Stars “running ” teams has passed and that teams like OKC and indy are actually run by their GMs.
If Leon has so Huge Balls to go against his main star’s preference and fire his favourite coach then this summer is going to be Much More than interesting!
I trust you and your sources Alan,
Bryant’s name on my list is now crossed.
“Case in point re: Z-Man missing the complexity as usual. I don’t argue that Thibs minmaxed regular season wins successfully. That’s the tragedy of Thibs: he’s a try-hard who doesn’t even get the results he’s going for. We’d have probably done better on regular season wins if he leaned on the starting lineup less, and applied strategies like 5-out, switching defense, zone, or really anything that wasn’t cookie cutter Thibs ball.”
More inane, serving one’s own agenda anal-ysis from the always dependable E.
This year’s team featured a starting lineup with two lousy-to-terrible defensive players and one short wing who can’t shoot. For most of the year, his backup C was a take-your-pick of Precious (who was actually out for a while to start the season), Sims, or Hukporti. The rest of his bench was a 6’2″ 3-and-D wing disguised as a shooting guard and an undersized shoot-first replacement-level PG. Then Landry Shamet came back and stunk up the court for a month before becoming modestly playable as an undersized scoring wing. The rest of the bench was a collection of rookies and G-Leagers.
Then in the second half of the season, Mitch came back but was on a strict minutes restriction, and both Brunson and OG had significant stints on the injury report.
But sure, any other coach would have squeezed more than 51 wins out of that team because they would have figured out a way to turn KAT and Brunson into all-defense candidates, or unlocked the secret of Kolek and Dadiet, or turned Deuce into a 6MoY. Or something.
Just like in year 1, when Vegas (and some posters here) said we would finish with something like 19 wins, largely because they thought we had the worst roster in the NBA. but somehow the team goes on to finish 10 games over .500 and have home court in the playoffs. Damn, another coach might have gone undefeated with all those hidden gems on that roster!
You have to be drinking a special kind of kool-aid to think this year’s roster was anything better than an ECF team, or that any average coach could have got them this far with this ill-fitting, shallow as a puddle on the sidewalk roster.
Yikes. Ditto Max.
Honestly, I think E is still bitter that Leon jettisoned his beloved RJ Barrett for that overpaid scrub OG. We’d surely be hanging a banner and making room in the rafters for #9 if it weren’t for that trade.
Bill Simmons has an interesting theory which runs counter to what any of us are likely to think. First off he thinks Mikal Bridges is very good just miserable and not used correctly, so the argument may not be sound. But given that, he sees the Knicks being worried that Bridges would be unwilling to sign an extension this summer, bet on himself, and leave. And that would just be an unmitigated disaster. He seems to think the Knicks need to sign him and this was done partially with that in mind.
Thibs did a pretty good job here. Before the season the Knickerblogger consenus was the team would win 50-55 games, and they did. But if you want the team to get better and you can’t really change the roster there’s only one other move you can make. I don’t think coaching matters that much outside of not hiring an idiot, but it’s certainly possible a different good coach could get something different out of this roster, and it’s probably worth a shot.
square pegs forced into round holes whole season
thanks thibs for what you’ve done, you made knicks relevant again.
very interested in what a new coach does with this team and this collection of players. i hope he is an x’s and o’s guy, cause interested in what this team is actually made of
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6YRfa2Q-qr8&pp=ygUPU3RlcGhlbiBhICBzaG93
Stephen A – Leons love for Towns and Mikal were the issues and got Thibs fired
Oh, and now the great Jeff Teague, he who played for Thibs for one season in Minny, you know, the only season they made the playoffs between 2004 and 2022, is the trusted authority on Thibs we’ve all been waiting for.
I especially like the part about “he calls every play” followed by “he don’t really coach you.” Sure, Jeff. Whatever you say.
OK I found some Johnnie Bryant breaking down X’s and O’s content. Here he is with Kenny Atkinson talking about spacing on Thinking Basketball (skip to 7:20 for Bryant.)
https://youtu.be/osY0NWe4M0w?si=YBRbyGA4r0iv2NAJ
One thing that always miffed me about Thibs was how he was always covered as the guy who loves basketball so much that he doesn’t have a life, and never leaves the office/arena. Always be suspicious of people who don’t have a life outside of work – they tend to be the worst bosses/colleagues.
“Thibs did a pretty good job here. Before the season the Knickerblogger consenus was the team would win 50-55 games, and they did. But if you want the team to get better and you can’t really change the roster there’s only one other move you can make. I don’t think coaching matters that much outside of not hiring an idiot, but it’s certainly possible a different good coach could get something different out of this roster, and it’s probably worth a shot.”
DROPS THE MIC!
I really don’t get the fascination with pinning the firing on Dolan vs. Leon, unless it can be demonstrated that Leon wanted to keep Thibs and was overruled.
What’s especially weird about it is that IT’S THE OUTCOME THAT PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE HERE INCLUDING ME WANTED!!! WHO GIVES TWO SHITS WHO MADE THE FINAL CALL?? (again, unless you can show that Leon and Dolan were not on the same page…that would be hella interesting.)
Really, try making up something that’s actually juicy, like a six-times removed source confirming that Dolan forced Leon to choose between giving up all those picks for Bridges or sitting through a JD and the Straight Shot marathon session.
thanks max…
johnnie bryant off the list…
coach of the new york knickerbockers should be a thorough interview, especially if you have the resources to conduct one, which the team most certainly does…
wonder how long this hire will take…
A little non Thibs talk- I-Hart with the #50 pick
50. New York Knicks (via Grizzlies): Amari Williams (Kentucky, C)
Size: 6’11”, 255 lbs
Age: 23
Nationality: England
Pro comparison: Isaiah Hartenstein
With so many prospects returning, there is bound to be interest in a big that can initiate breaks, average 3.2 assists, finish plays and bring defensive activity. Amari Williams’ playmaking and unique skill set at the 5 should outweigh his lack of shooting.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/25201330-2025-nba-mock-draft-top-5-shakeup-2-round-predictions-and-pro-comps
The conspiracy hypotheses (I won’t even grace them as theories) are so thick I’ve been choking all day. I should try to come up with one so I can fit in.
But here’s what I think. Thibs did a great job making us respectable again, thank you Tom. He also made some inexplicable choices, both systemic (e.g., playing endless drop with KAT, forgetting the KAT/Brunson P&R)) and in games (e.g., stopped with the switching, leaving the starters in at the end of the Game Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken). I think if we had a good coach who didn’t do those stupid things and didn’t do other stupid things that Thibs didn’t do, we might still be playing.
And I also don’t agree that this isn’t a championship caliber team. We weren’t really supposed to beat the Pistons. We CERTAINLY couldn’t possibly beat the Celtics. And we were gonna be thrashed by the Pacers. I think there’s every chance we could have beaten them, and not in a completely different universe — just a few unlucky things going the other way.
Could we beat OKC? Of course not — we couldn’t even beat the Pistons, much less the Celtics. So don’t be stupid, that literally could never happen.
In the end I’m not against the coaching change. I was angry at Thibs a lot this year, so it might be nice to have someone else in the hot chair.
And damn you, Alan. I had totally jumped on the Bryant skateboard. Now I have nothing.
Zman if you’re going to rant like Thibs’ PR consultant at least address the right person
I watched his take. What I’ve learned in my job is that there are lot of deep and unseen connections with many in the sports world. It’s possible that Teague’s one season with him validated the things he heard from other players who had played under Thibs. So “authority” is too strong a word, but I definitely wouldn’t dismiss his thoughts.
Teague played 1.5 seasons under Thibs, not 1 season. How many seasons does a player need to play under a coach to have an opinion on that coach?
Even Cholada Thai (RIP) had some bad yelp reviews (probably also written by Jeff Teague).
C’mon Alan, you gotta give us a little more about Bryant than that!
I understand the fear whenever Dolan is said to be involved with anything. But I agree: it’s really a nothing-burger. For all we know, Leon could have asked Dolan to sit in on these exit interviews because he had a darn good idea what the player sentiments were gonna be, and he wanted Dolan to hear the interviews so they could all be in lock-step in the decision to move on from Thibs. Which is honestly what you would want from a functional organization.
“Zman if you’re going to rant like Thibs’ PR consultant at least address the right person”
I’m not completely convinced that you and E aren’t the same person. Or maybe just genetically identical. Both of you have polluted this blog with tired repetitive schtick for years. But hey, if some guys feel some weird need to gratuitously bash the most successful coach the Knicks have had since JVG, after the best season the Knicks have had since 2000, have at it!
I’ll go along with what DRed said so succinctly.
E and I have well documented differences of opinion, like his weird fetishes for RJ Barrett and DeJounte Murray.
Not everyone who disagrees with you is the same person, you pompous ninny
The report came out today that Knicks players didn’t think Thibs communicated their roles well. Two days ago a former player spoken openly about the same exact thing. Seems relevant.
Also there’s a pretty obvious difference between coaching a player and calling a play, those two things don’t contradict each other at all.
Well isn’t that nice for you
What are yall even fighting about?
I’d like to know more about Bryant dirt, too. If I remember correctly, his biggest positive was that he’s tight with Spida. I’m not saying he’s a bad candidate, just that his ability to bring Spida here was his main worth.
Can teams still give picks and/or cash to nab another team’s coach? Is that still a thing?
“…but I definitely wouldn’t dismiss his thoughts.”
I definitely would dismiss his thoughts. I’ve watched 5 straight seasons of Thibs’ coaching. Jeff Teague doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about. By the way, he spent 3 seasons for the Wolves, half with Thibs (66-56) and half without (36-70).
Ditto. Probably sexual harassment or the like, since FOs seem to think he is a good coach.
So the guy on the blog who watches the games on tv is more of an authority than the guy who actually played for the coach for 1.5 years
Seems legit
“Jeff Teague’s not an authority on Thibs. I’M THE AUTHORITY ON THIBS!”
I’d personally like to know if Johnnie Bryant is actually a despicable person, because I don’t want to write another word about him as a potential coaching hire if he is. I don’t need any details, just a yes/no if it’s bad shit.
Devin Williams have a clean inning as a closer for the Yankees challenge
I guess we should just ignore all the reports that came from players, assistant coaches, and opposing coaches that lauded Thibs’ coaching. The stuff about players not knowing their roles sounds like total sour grapes horseshit. More likely, they didn’t like the roles Thibs assigned them to. Clearly Obi and Grimes didn’t like their roles. But Julius, Brunson, IQ, RJ, DDV, etc. seemed to love their roles!
Seriously, can anyone actually think about a player on this year’s team and question what their role was?
Again, it’s fair to question whether the roles assigned by Thibs were conducive to winning either strategically or tactically, but “he don’t really coach you” is ludicrous and anyone who knows the first thing about coaching basketball knows that.
The guy who played in the league for like 10 yrs don’t know shit….but i do….uh…a’ite
How about Mikal Bridges? He played for Thibs for one year.
Do you know more about Thibs than Mikal does?
Okay, let’s have a circle jerk of obtuseness! Thibs, the 2X coach of the year DOESN’T ACTUALLY COACH!
BuThEdOcAlLeVeRyPlAy!!!!!!!!!!!
Williams is the modern day John wetteland…just doesn’t throw as hard
rama, speaking of spreading wild and unsubstantiated rumors that anonymously piss all over someone’s reputation… wow.
Brian should sell this thread to a university media department that looks at these sorts of things. Textbook material.
“How about Mikal Bridges? He played for Thibs for one year.
Do you know more about Thibs than Mikal does?”
Please show me where Mikal Bridges said Thibs doesn’t really coach.
(PS glad you have finally turned the corner on Mikal, blaming all of his failures on Thibs not coaching him or defining his role after spending the entire fucking year blaming it on Mikal just sucking.)
Every coach can coach. It’s in the name.
But we now will have a new one. Hope he is a good one that utilises our players abilities and minimises their weaknesses. I hope he runs plays that the rest of the NBA run too. The end.
Z-man, with all love, I ask… did Jeff Teague do something to you that we don’t know about?
Not what I asked.
Do you know more about Thibs than Mikal Bridges or no?
You know more about him than Jeff Teague, because you have watched five years of him coach sitting on your couch.
By the same logic, don’t you know more about him than Mikal Bridges does?
“The guy who played in the league for like 10 yrs don’t know shit….but i do….uh…a’ite”
Okay so from now on, any time Shaq or Perk or Barkley says something, we should take it for gospel because they played in the league for a long time! Because they NEVER say anything self-serving or just plain stupid.
“doesn’t really coach” could be Teague’s way of saying that there’s a certain way that he coaches in which he doesn’t communicate certain things that certain players could better benefit from. I believe he trying to put normal English(ish) terms on things that’s basketball-coded (because I’ve learned there is such a language for those who coach/play it esp at higher levels).
Perfection.
One of the reasons Inside the NBA was at one point so revered was that Charles and Kenny (I’ve always been lukewarm on Shaq as an analysis) had a great ability to communicate being in a player’s shoes in certain circumstances in key game and career moments. Not to be taken for gospel – but to give valuable insight.
I mean, I obviously don’t know, but reading between the lines it seems a logical deduction. Not an issue of incompetence, so that’s maybe the main option. I guess it could be alcoholism or substance abuse, but it didn’t feel like that.
Just trying to guess in a situation where no further information is likely. Either way, I’ll trust the source (and his sources).
the Bryant stuff is entirely coaching-related. The phrasing used by various people reminded me very much of The Fizdale Experience. And now that is really all I can or should say.
Doug that’s pretty hilarious, esp since I watched Mike’s take on it (didn’t watch Mad Dog).
This was a good way to spend my first day back to work from vacay. and btw, #lolKnicksSupv tried to troll me about Thibs, but he had to concede the points I made about coaching vs personnel (he actually coached Victor Valley College’s men’s ball team for a couple of seasons back in the early 10s before he came here for football).
About to leave work now. I’m happy that I got to spend rare time posting throughout the day here with you all – now heading home to the 2yr old bouncy bundle of joy.
“Not what I asked.
Do you know more about Thibs than Mikal Bridges or no?
You know more about him than Jeff Teague, because you have watched five years of him coach sitting on your couch.
By the same logic, don’t you know more about him than Mikal Bridges does?”
I can say pretty comfortably that I have watched many dozens, if not hundreds of hours of film analysis, read countless articles, and listened to hundreds of podcasts run by pretty smart basketball people, enough to have a pretty good idea of who Thibs is and how he prepares his team. I’ve also heard enough players talk about how well he prepares them for games. I’ve heard enough opposing coaches talk about how well prepared and coached Thibs’ team are.
But true, I have never actually been coached by him. So when choosing which players to believe, I’m going to go with those whose opinions actually match what all the other data is telling me, and not some random disgruntled player from the past who may or may not have an agenda.
Thibs is one of the most successful regular season coaches in NBA history, especially given that he hasn’t had a single team one would consider loaded with HOF talent. To say that he “doesn’t really coach” is beyond stupid. But you know that, don’t you?
Alan forgive me for saying this but you’re such a cock tease!
Not “could”, CDiggy. 100% is.
“He don’t really say shit to you. He be like “Down!” “Pop!” “Damn!” He don’t be like Teague go here, Teague do this, he don’t really be coaching you.”
Btw Teague seemed far from disgruntled and had glowing things to say about Thibs, as well.
Sitting down to watch this, it’s about 5-out spacing, interestingly enough. I understand maybe half of this, but the concepts Bryant is discussing is 5D chess compared to Thibs isoball.
Alan is mail slot edging us.
But seriously, I appreciate the additional info. If true, that kind of resonates with my earlier intuition of “this guy is very highly regarded, but why exactly?”
I am actually relieved it isn’t something darker about Bryant. Fizdale Magic is indeed disqualifying, but for a less dark and sinister reason. Plenty of information for me.
Not a lot of great options – Wright isn’t happening, Spo got an extension recently and Riley won’t let him come to NY of all places. Malone seems a No – probably good. Budz? Could do worse, I guess, but he has not risen above his material lately.
Gonna be tough to thread the needle.
““doesn’t really coach” could be Teague’s way of saying that there’s a certain way that he coaches in which he doesn’t communicate certain things that certain players could better benefit from. I believe he trying to put normal English(ish) terms on things that’s basketball-coded (because I’ve learned there is such a language for those who coach/play it esp at higher levels).”
Well I misplaced my Teaguese-English dictionary, so for now maybe I’ll look to someone where an interpreter is not required to understand his opinion.
Get with it, Doug, it’s called “slotting”
Also Chuck vs. the big ol’ women of San Antonio
Jesus Christ, Z-Man, what part of “Down!” “Pop!” “Damn!” don’t you understand???
I can’t believe I’ve been outed as a vanilla rube on knickerblogger dot net
Ugh. I didn’t watch the actual video, but don’t you think Teague means that Thibs almost entirely “schemes” for games against different opponents and such while assistants like the “big man coach” “teach” specific things to players aka “coach”?
Jeff Teague knows a lot more about Thibs coaching than I ever will but says Thibs calls every play but you can shoot any time you can run anything and he just puts the ball in his best players hands because he doesn’t really coach. I’m really not sure what to make of that. Evaluating coaches as a fan is really hard because we have no idea what they’re doing most of the time
I wonder if the new coach will make significant changes to the rest of the staff?
You would think he’d want to bring in his own people.
Mo Cheeks is a goner for sure
You know what they say: Mo Money, Mo Cheeks.
I have to hope the new guy hires Jeff Teague as an assistant.
Think what Alan is trying to say is that Bryant is more style than substance when it comes to his coaching abilities and maybe good at the politics of it all and not so much the Xs and Os. Alan, blink twice if this is accurate.
I guess I speak fluent Teague so let me translate:
“He calls every play” means Thibs doesn’t let anyone else on the coaching staff call plays. It doesn’t mean Thibs calls a play on every possession. Hence “you can shoot any time you can run anything and he just puts the ball in his best players hands” on the many possessions where Thibs is not calling a play.
“He don’t really coach” is not a real thing Teague said. He said “he don’t really coach you”, i.e. he doesn’t give you clear and specific instructions like “Teague go here Teague do this.”
^ this last part tracks perfectly with the Knicks having to have multiple players only meetings to tell each other what they’re supposed to do.
https://m.youtube.com/clip/UgkxKCElF7wzjZVGmwAcfrgGidFmCm0PU7ux paperwork Knicks
That was very interesting.
The teams the complain the most turns into “i am told, not reliably, those two teams are among” seems like classic “journalism”
Also the Bryant breakdown is really good. No Iso though… so..
I think Teague’s most salient point is that Thibs does not defer his coaching of tatics or strategy to assistants, and that when he bellows out instructions in monosyllabic blasts, it’s shorthand for something that can be described in more words. If that’s what he’s saying, he’s obviously correct. I doubt that Thibs is all that receptive to other voices unless it’s something that he intuitively believes in. If Teague is critiquing his coaching personality/style (Rose called Thibs a martinet, so if this is just more of that) well, duh. That’s a lot different than saying that “players don’t know their roles” or “he doesn’t really coach”.
Like most coaches, Thibs has preferred schemes and sets. No coach has players run the same schemes and sets on every play, and Thibs’ bellowing is about which ones to run at a particular time. This is clearly evident in film analysis. I have seen countless plays analyzed where the scheme or set was sound, but just wasn’t executed properly, or was executed properly but just didn’t work. And then there are times when the schemes and sets are just not good for the personnel on the floor. But guess what? That’s true for all coaches!
Thibs coached here 5 years with a variety of rosters and will leave as the 4th winningest coach in the franchise’s history with one of the highest win percentages. In three of those years, his most heralded player was Julius Randle, and in two, Jalen Brunson, both of whom topped out as second-team all-NBA. He was far from perfect, but imho he deserves way better than what he is getting from Pags, E, and some others.
How about giving a chance to Teague to coach us?
😄
““He don’t really coach” is not a real thing Teague said. He said “he don’t really coach you”, i.e. he doesn’t give you clear and specific instructions like “Teague go here Teague do this.”
^ this last part tracks perfectly with the Knicks having to have multiple players only meetings to tell each other what they’re supposed to do.”
Thibs has a reputation for pointing things out on film telling players exactly what they should should be doing, i.e. for putting players in a position to succeed if they react to the play according to the principles of a given screen or set. This is what most coaches do as well. Some miscommunications are inevitable no matter who is coaching, and some players in particular are very prone to miscommunication. Others are caused by poor player communication. Still others are caused by bad player decision-making, either too late or wrong way. If you watch film study, you can have those breakdowns pointed out to you by analysts (Benji Ritholtz is very good at this!)
It certainly helps to have a vocal defensive anchor/quarterback on the floor. Draymond Green is the quintessential defensive quarterback. Chris Paul is the quintessential offensive quarterback. I don’t think the Knicks really have that guy on either end. It’s Brunson on O and Hart on D, and neither guy is top-shelf in that regard. Nor do they have the best guys to order around.
please quit trying to goad alan into revealing more he already revealed more than he wanted to after you guys pushed him to like max i will just take alan at his word but what i hope is that if it is something that turns alan off about him that it will be the same types of things that will turn dolan and rose off about him the fact that it is coaching and not personal worries me a little bit more because the front office can understand personal things but maybe not coaching things
One other thing: it’s hard to coach defense when you have two guys on the floor most of the time who are targeted for mismatches continually. Daignault doesn’t have that problem to solve. Carlisle has “speed” workarounds with his roster for Hali’s defensive deficiencies, and those are not as pronounced as Brunson’s because he has gotten better at using his length and anticipation. Last year’s Celtics didn’t have that issue. OTOH, once the Cavs got banged up, Indy could target their weaker defensive players. Denver’s weaknesses on both sides of the ball got exposed by a team who had lots of options, and even then having an all-time great player helped keep things competitive. We don’t have one of those.
The Knicks have a ton of holes, and that made coaching them problematic. That’s why I think another coach might close some holes but in the process open up others, resulting in similar outcomes. It would take someone like Carlisle, or Spo, or vintage Pops, or Kerr to have any chance of getting this roster further than Thibs did. I’m all for trying to find one of those guys! But it is not gonna be easy by any means.
To me, the questionable decisions go back to last summer. Today was the apex thereof, and I am afraid of what may be coming next. It is, perhaps, my PDSD talking but I am terrified by the possibility of the next Knicks coach failing. A lot of people here agree that it is going to be difficult find someone better than Thibs but the most scary part is that it is easy to hire someone who will turn out to be worse. And then what? Back to square one, firing coaches, trading away players, starting allover, and so on? Same old Knicks? There is no worse nightmare than that.
The youtube video of Bryant breaking down 5-out spacing (pretty well, to my untrained ear) is an interesting piece of data to go with the hot goss that Bryant may be somewhat fraudulent as a coach.
Maybe the rumors are just rumors, and Bryant is who he appears to be. Or maybe he’s just parroting Kenny Atkinson’s concepts and he’s good on camera.
Either way, if anyone knows who he really is, it’ll be Leon and the FO who worked with him for four years. Mitch overlapped with his entire New York tenure. No doubt Brunson already has an opinion about him. I don’t feel too worried about getting grifted.
Interesting factoid: Brunson and KAT shared 85% of their minutes with Josh Hart.
What if the actual unworkable fit is the 3 of them together, and any 2 out of 3 can coexist fine? Hart is not a good enough floor spacer to maximize the offense with Brunson and KAT. And he’s not a good enough defender to help cover for them.
Obviously the guy who made this call feels like he can find a coach that is better suited to this personnel. I don’t think it’s outrageous to believe that playing more five-out lineups, looking to increase the 3PAr, and relying less on drop coverage might be able to squeeze more out of this particular lemon. There were locker room issues as well.
We’ll never really know, because every season is different, each season has variance in injury luck, and the personnel will be different. But once again I’m reminded of Mike D’Antoni. Much like with Thibs, the Knicks did not give D’Antoni the ideal personnel he needed to run his system. They gave him iso-Melo and tried to pass off Fatty Felton as a SSOL point guard. He got fired, and Mike Woodson got better results.
Mike Woodson wasn’t as good a coach as D’Antoni, who was a truly revolutionary basketball mind. But Woodson didn’t have the issue of trying to play SSOL with a roster that wasn’t built for it. He just kind of coached them in a conventional way, and honestly sort of stumbled into some good results.
I don’t think “better” or “worse” is the correct way to look at this. The fit was not right, and much like D’Antoni, Thibs was not going to abandon his style and principles. The hope here is that we end up with better results even if we end up with a coach who isn’t as “good” as Thibodeau.
I wouldn’t rule it out.
Nobody talk to me about how KAT and Brunson are fundamentally incompatible.
JK I think that’s a fair comparison, and if you remember, I have compared Thibs to D’Antoni on many occasions. Both are what I consider to be second-tier coaches because of their personalities and rigidity.
That said, Mike Woodson did not actually get “better” results beyond Melo having a dominant regular season of iso-ball. His team almost choked against the corpse of the Big 3 Celts, and then flamed out against a so-so Pacers team, making Frank Vogel look like a genius. Better than “losing 4-2 in the conference finals after knocking off the highly favored defending champs” is a much higher bar, and it will most likely take a better coach than Thibs, not just one who is more suited to the personnel.
“Nobody talk to me about how KAT and Brunson are fundamentally incompatible.”
I wholeheartedly agree that if you put KAT and Brunson on the floor with Jokic, Giannis and SGA, they probably are compatible.
The Knicks had an 18-24 record under D’Antoni, and then went 18-6 after he got fired. Then the next year they won 54 games and won the only playoff series that the Knicks won in a 22 year period.
He wasn’t a great coach, but he quite clearly got better results than D’Antoni.
D’Antoni spent three years to bring us back to respectability, and when he started having success someone had the bright idea of gutting the roster in order to bring in Melo who as not the right fit for D’Antoni. That move was not fair to either of them. There is a kind of parallel to be made between now and then. We didn’t gut the roster this time, but we did trade away all assets and got a roster which, though not as weak as in 2012, was nevertheless thin and a misfit for the now fired coach. A coach who, much like D’Antoni, spent several years bringing us back to respectability.
Thibs is an obsessed micromanager but he doesn’t tell his guys what to do. So what is he actually doing? He’s just in practice yelling damn?
Someone just suggested Chris Paul as the next head coach, and it makes so much sense…
First Gersson Rosas, then Ime Udoka… we’re going to assemble the Workplace Affair All-Stars
They can’t handle prosperity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgIBgVgMNkE
Are they really now knocking on the doors of other teams to get permission to lure away their coaches? What a misery.
I just listened the new Dunc’d On podcast (a free one) discussing this. They were in favor of firing Thibs because they thought his offense wasn’t good enough. But weirdly, they also think the team will be worse under the next coach. Of course that’s a possibility, but if you expect that why be in favor of the firing?
In the 170 minutes with Hart and Precious off and KAT & Brunson on, including the playoffs, the Knicks had a 123.53 offensive rating and a 126.72 defensive rating.
The 103 minutes in the playoffs, they had a 121.13 ORtg and a 126.89 drtg.
The 66 minutes in the regular season, they had a 127.08 offensive rating and a 126.47 defensive rating.
For reference, the best offense in the league had a 121 offensive rating and the worst defense had a 120 defensive rating.
I’ve been listening to other pundits too, and unlike Dunc’d On, they are appalled by the firing (just like someone said above). My feeling is they are mostly not very analytical and just look at the Knicks record. But there can always be stuff behind the scenes that cause a firing that aren’t just about the record. And Knicks had a talented team that was expected to win 50 plus games. Some other coach should be able to win that many games too. I hope so.
That’s pretty interesting
If Alan could just learn to speak Teague he could tell is everything. Hubert could translate.
WOW . Just woke to the news and this amazing thread.
Agree with all the praise for Thibs getting us back to contention. Happy also to see him go now.
Main point to me: Rose obvs thinks the roster he built is NOT the problem. Let’s hope he’s correct. I think he is.
Also, should Steve Nash be added to the list? Not bc I think he’s amazing (I don’t know enough about his coaching) but —
Steve Nash is a longtime mentor of Jalen Brunson, no? Seems Rose-y. And Nash = Passing, which we never (ever) do.
I have to say, it would be nice to getting 27 assists or more per game.
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