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167 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2025.02.25)”
IN the NYP, Legler kinda summed up why I felt the way I did about this KAT-at-C team going into the season, and how predictably things have transpired:
It wouldn’t surprise me if guys like Jalen Brunson and Josh Hart are frustrated with this very stark reality. KAT’s horrific play at C makes the entire defense fall apart and just causes guys to scramble to cover for him. If you watch the highlight reel of the C’s scoring plays, time after time KAT was in the center (npi) of the actions they run.
Maybe he’s not Enes Freedom bad, but Enes Freedom didn’t cost $50+M AAV either.
And I picked them to finish 2nd this year. Strat bet on them to win the title.
It seems common these days for people to think “the whole world” thinks something when really it’s just them and their echo chamber.
What, Mikal Bridges, OG Anunoby, and Josh Hart can’t rotate now? Every defense in the NBA is put into rotation routinely, but in NY the rotations are made impossible because of the 5?
Sorry, not adding up.
The claim appears to be that the wings (a) have to go off-man (*) to cover for the 5 and (b) they’re accomplished at that and deserve credit … but at the same time (c) when they go off-man in normal, stock NBA rotations they are not accomplished at that, but (d) that’s someone else’s fault.
Does not compute. No sale.
In terms of drop coverage with KAT, they (a) shouldn’t be playing it anywhere near as much, but (b) the job of perimeter defenders is to not let their man get the head of steam they routinely get before getting to KAT. They’re failing badly at this job.
KAT played in the top defense in the association last year.
(*) Query: Are these off-man movements they’re supposedly doing rogue and off-grid? Or are they in Thibs’s game plan? If they’re in Thibs’s game plan, he should take them out because they’re not working. (Of course, this question is somewhat rhetorical, inasmuch as these rogue, covering off-man movements either (1) don’t happen that much; or (2) are things they aren’t supposed to be doing or are in themselves poor defense.
E, are you coming to these conclusions after hours of film analysis or are you just doing the bit again?
Film analysis and logic.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but nothing about the Legler/Z-Man theory adds up.
The fact of the matter is that they’re playing very poor perimeter defense. That’s not the 5, it’s the guys on the perimeter. I see no need to go to some theory premised on illusory secondary and tertiary effects when the primary evidence is directly in front of our eyes.
With that said, a good part of this is likely scheme. The fact that Thibs likes his guys to pack in is oft-noted and essentially established fact at this point. It’s been mentioned dozens if not hundreds of times on KB since 2020. So what some people are interpreting as “scrambling” by the wings to help the 5 is in fact, instead, “Thibs’s defense.” He needs to change it, or he needs to go. The league has progressed beyond his schemes.
With that said, Mikal Bridges is a poor defender in his own right, so really they’re dealing with three poor/meh defenders, not just two. That puts a ceiling on how good the defense can be. At this point, if I’m Thibs, I’m seriously thinking about starting Deuce.
Last I checked, Minny’s #1 defense had a 4x DPoY at the 5. Was that KAT?
Who cares? All that means is that if you have good defenders, your defense will tend to be good. What does that tell you, in turn, about the Knick defense and defenders?
There’s nothing magical about the 5 on defense and nothing magical about “rim protection.” That’s Thibs talking.
“That’s just E talking”
Fify
The Knicks are fifth best in the association at shooting percentage allowed from 0-3 feet. But teams are getting to that spot the third most in the league against the Knicks. And we all know the macabre numbers on the perimeter against the Knicks.
Teams get to the rim too easily against the Knicks and teams fill it up from downtown too easily against the Knicks.
This is not a rim issue or a “rim protection” issue. This is a perimeter issue.
In terms of the getting to the rim issue, KAT contributes to that because he’s poor at stopping guys from getting to the rim on him when he picks them up in the 15-ish foot range on the drop coverage Thibs insists on playing. But the other guys on the team are also doing a poor job of letting guys get into the paint and to the rim.
It’s just way too easy for teams to get to their spots on the floor against the Knicks, wherever those spots may be on any particular possession. That doesn’t vary much by defender although pretty clearly OG is the best defender in the starting lineup.
Oddly, I tend to favor E’s opinion here. Obviously KAT is miscast as the last line of defense, but I think 1. Brunson getting picked on and 2. Thibs’ rigid system are also very much to blame. We should clearly be playing some zone with this undersized group. And yes our wings aren’t playing up to snuff, but Thibs is partly behind that IMO.
Winning wo sweating on D is sweet and as it seems addictive.
Unfortunately this ain’t happening against the Top teams.
Your film analysis should be telling you that they’re getting to the rim so often because after the ball defender gets screened by KAT’s man KAT goes too deep into drop and lets the ball man get too close and doesn’t give the wing defender time to recover.
Most accurate thing I have read in quite a while, kudos… applicable in many areas.
I don’t think changing the coach is going to matter all that much. Not to say he is doing a great job or couldn’t make changes, but I think it’s likely to end up a marginal difference.
I don’t think OG and Mikal and Hart and Deuce’s perimeter defense is the issue. I have watched a lot of bad perimeter defense in my time. These guys are all ok.
I am in the Towns can’t play 5 camp. Strongly. I just don’t think you can have a good defense when he is your primary interior defender. He’s simply too slow and, for whatever reason, bad. He’s like a Bargnani out there almost. He gets rebounds and contests some shots here and there, but for the most part he is a glorified cardboard cutout.
I love him on offense. I’d love him at the 4 next to a legit defensive center. I love the way he carries himself and that he is local and how hard he plays on offense. But I don’t know if I have ever seen anyone rotate to the corner slower than him.
I think the Knicks need OG and Mikal on the ball more. Any time they get isolated on the ball handler without any screens set the defense is fine.
It’s not a coincidence the biggest defensive plays at the end of games has been made by Mikal when it’s just him one on one. I’m not just talking about his blocks, his defense on the final play against Atlanta when Young couldn’t get by him and had to throw up a floater off the side of the backboard. Against Chicago there was a similar play when White tried to drive on him and threw up a floater that hit only backboard.
If all teams did was ISO on the perimeter defenders the Knicks defense would be great but unfortunately that rarely happens.
I agree with Owen’s take. I also feel very strongly that I’d prefer to have to find a trade for Towns in this economy than a trade for Julius to push up to God tier.
Thibs should mix it up every once in a while tho. Trench warfare without a good guy trench is hard to enjoy.
Sure, it’s true that KAT is bad at drop coverage. It’s also true that it’s a bad idea to build a defense around a guy who is bad at drop coverage. It’s like trying to run SSOL with Toney Douglas as the point guard.
Part of coaching is putting guys in position to succeed. If KAT is getting endlessly roasted as the backbone of a drop coverage scheme, maybe you need to come up with some ways to mitigate that. Namely, don’t play so much drop.
Don’t build your defense around rim protection that doesn’t exist. Try something other than the one dogmatic way you insist on coaching.
The best coaches, guys like Pat Riley, coach to the personnel rather than doing square peg round hole. We haven’t had the personnel to run a defensive scheme built around a C playing drop coverage. Doesn’t matter. We’re gonna do it anyway.
Perhaps, in some small but well guarded place in Thibs thinking, is the true inkling that this team cannot succeed with KAT at the five. And the long game on the season was to build the team for the very moment when that 5, our only “possible” value addition roster-wise would jump into the building and land softly on bionic ankles right under the basket, quietly nudging KAT off to run around the perimeter like a moose on mescaline chasing whatever shades of defense his brain can muster as it considers its next ridiculous chandelier swinging offensive move. There’s no change to be had because, and Thibs has done shit like this if I recall, this is the defense the team will play with Mitch.
Made me look silly in public with that one, Meeks
I eagerly await Towns and Country. If that doesn’t fix the problem (after maybe three weeks to get integrated), then I’ll worry about our ceiling and next moves.
I think it tells us you can have a great defense with KAT, but not with KAT, Brunson, and Bridges.
Josh Hart is a good, versatile, and smart defender, but he’s also limited. OG is great but one wing can’t cover for all this weakness.
It’s a bad mix, and it’s not “a tweak or two” away from being fixed.
Does anyone else get the feeling Mitch is just gonna be the backup center? I feel like that is what the organization treated him as when he was on the block for spare parts. But more importantly I have a really hard time seeing Bridges or Hart getting their roles reduced.
Once we stop playing the Celtics and Cavs, we will reassert ourselves as the King of the Mezz. And that is going to be just fine for Thibs, who will think that next time we can just beat the Celtics doing the same thing with better effort.
What’s going to be the impetus to drive change if we’re winning?
One of the most tiresome and largely inaccurate narratives is that Towns is getting cooked because he’s always in drop. There’s a reason that he’s often, but not always exclusively, in drop. If he pushes out onto the perimeter, it will be just another kind of disaster. He will get blown by in isolation And now your biggest guy in the paint is OG at best and often Brunson, Bridges, or Hart, so even if Towns is not abused (don’t bet on it) and the result is a miss, you now have second opportunities galore. Like the one that Kornet tipped out to Hauser for an easy 3.
Seriously, can we just ignore E now? This is one of the dumbest things ever said here.
No, it’s not, ThisChicanery. Draymond Green is no one’s definition of a rim-protecting 5 at 6’6″, 230 lbs, and the Warriors built an all time great defense around him. Bam Adebayo is a 6’9″ power forward who averages less than 1 block per game and the Heat have built great defenses around him. The Nuggets had a defense that performed great in the postseason that was built around Aaron Gordon.
There are so many examples of teams eschewing the rim protecting 5 and building great defenses that it’s actually laughable you think the comment is stupid.
Ok take out “rim protecting” and substitute “good interior defending”. Same same.
You can’t have a good defense without one really good interior/big man defender
If the “tweak” is Mitch being fully integrated and being able to play 25 minutes a game at the level we know he’s been capable of playing, I think that is a rather significant tweak. Enough to beat the big three? Probably not but that’s why we play the games!
@hubert
No one mentioned shot blocking and I never said that an elite defensive 5 was a prerequisite to an elite defense, just that it’s stupid to say there’s no link between the two. And your evidence that an elite defensive 5 isn’t needed for an elite defense is to name two teams that have elite defensive 5s but who aren’t shot blockers?
No, it’s not, ThisChicanery. Draymond Green is no one’s definition of a rim-protecting 5 at 6’6″, 230 lbs, and the Warriors built an all time great defense around him.
hubert wtf. draymond green is one of the best rim protectors in nba history. his unparalleled predilection for dramatically repositioning himself, contorting his entire essence and contesting something that you thought was surely an unassailable layup is something you of all people should surely recognize and appreciate. saying he’s not a rim protector because inches is one of the worst basketball things i’ve ever read and absolutely irrelevant in all other contexts as my wife will confirm.
kat has played 11,432 minutes in the nba as a center without a partner who you might call a plus rim protector. in those minutes his team’s defensive rating has been 115.38 (playoffs 117.9). the average defensive rating in the nba over that period has been 111.76. the worst defensive team over that period had a defensive rating of 114.84. if you don’t understand that having KAT without a rim protector is a massive first order hurdle to having a good defense that’s great news, because the world will forever be full of fantastic mysteries for you.
Fucking thank you.
PT with the post of the season.
Pacino and Keanu squaring off.
In their 4 championship seasons, Draymond Green played the following % of time at the C position in the playoffs: 30,32,29,32. Those %s were much lower in the regular season (career 14%).
Jokic is miles better than KAT on D and on O for that matter. The smallest guy in that lineup was 6’4”. Their D rating was 15th. If you swapped out Jokic for KAT on that team, they are gone long before the finals.
Anyway, this is not about KATs inability to protect the rim. He doesn’t protect anything, except iso vs. classic bigs. Draymond would probably not take kindly to his many lapses. Jimmy sure didn’t.
Pacino and Reeves already did that movie almost 30 years ago.
Dude, you’re making my point (and E’s as well).
The Thibs approach to defense is to leave Andrew Bogut in because he blocks shots.
You’re suggesting that Thibs would not build a defense around Draymond?
I would take Kevon Looney over Towns as a defender.
I’m pretty sure I’ve demonstrated I understand this when I said it 5,000 times. I even gave it a cute little nickname: “our thermal exhaust port.”
Can you explain what you think E’s point was, because it wasn’t about shot blocking.
And as much as I dislike Thibs this is obviously not true. Joakim Noah wasn’t a great shot blocker in Chicago, even though he was an elite defender, and he didn’t have one while in Minnesota either. And KAT’s not a shot blocker and he’s not playing over some elite defensive 5 that doesn’t block shots.
No, I don’t think Thibs would have been the revolutionary thinker who in 2015 started playing defense with 5 guys under 6’8″.
For evidence, I submit that he has OG Anunoby on his team right now, and his defense is built around KAT.
So Thibs should bench KAT and play OG at the 5?
Flagrant foul on the play. Hubert gets two free throws and the ball.
It seemed pretty clear to me it was about shot blocking and traditional deterrents from driving. That’s why rim protection was in quotes.
There’s a difference between:
there’s nothing magical about rim protection
and
there’s nothing magical about “rim protection”
E has told us many, many times that rebounding is part of defense. KAT is averaging almost 14 rebounds per game.
Just sayin’. 🙂
I jokingly suggested to my brother during one game near the beginning of the season that we should just play OG at the 5 and KAT at the 4 on defense. That way you don’t sacrifice the KAT at C/5-out offensive look and maybe get better defense at the anchor position.
That was a joke I made at the beginning of the season, but since then I’ve mind-tricked myself into thinking we should actually just try it–it literally cannot be worse defensively than KAT at the 5. Thibs would never, ever do it though, and his unwillingness to even consider it indicates a major problem with the way he coaches.
If OG and KAT are out there together against a team like the Celtics, positions don’t matter. They will find him and exploit him no matter where he plays.
Even on offense, the Celtics felt no need to put KP on KAT. They put him on Hart and had him play drop, daring Hart to beat them from the perimeter in exchange for rim protection.
Hard to get off the mat after that one, but Hubert did! If only our defense were as resilient.
That’s the essence of it, but it’s hard not to believe that with Mitch instead of Hart, KAT will be more difficult to exploit.
Two things are true:
1) You cannot have an elite defense with KAT as your 5
2) Thibs is not creative enough to maximize his defense (or offense against better teams) when it’s clear that his philosophical methods are not working
The ideal guy to put next to Towns would be a guy like JJJ or Porzingis, a rim protector with some shooting range, so you can essentially do a platoon like TEBKOB is suggesting. Mitch’s range of zero feet is not ideal for the kind of spacing KAT needs to be at his best on offense, to say the least.
Unfortunately those players are rare, and we pushed all our chips in to acquire a relatively generic non-needle moving wing.
It was a brilliant takedown of what he thought I was saying. If everyone who mocked me did so with such alacrity I would enjoy it more.
Imagine the voodoo the medical staff would have to cook up to keep OG healthy banging with c’s under the rim.
The entire comment chain was about wings scrambling on defense because of KAT’s bad D, shot blocking was never mentioned until you brought it up. Saying that E was talking about shot blocking when it was never mentioned or implied is pretty incredible.
Couldn’t agree more that this is a scheme issue and Thibs cannot make in-game adjustments. This is nothing new.
I disagree that it is entirely KATs fault, although he had me screaming at the TV all weekend on at least 4 gimme layups.
Most of this falls on Thibs: that is to say, if you know your center cannot play drop coverage then constantly running it even though you have half a season proving he can’t, it’s on you. He’s not gonna just learn it.
I also believe some variation of zone would mitigate 90% of the problems on D since it would stop bridges from getting annihilated on screens, and everyone running to help on a drive and kick which leads to wide open 3s or KAT taking a foul.
My question is, if we had Eric Spolstra coaching this roster, do you think we’d be having this conversation? I doubt it.
They’re only “elite defensive 5’s” because their coaches broke the mold and played them at the 5 when no one else would have.
That’s the difference between rim protection and “rim protection.” The former is anyone who gets the job done. The latter is someone who fits the traditional mold of who gets the job done.
In fact, you made a few good points that made me realize the key factor in “rim protection” (as Thibs sees it) isn’t even shot blocking. It’s just height.
Give me one reason KAT is playing the 5 100% of the time he’s on the court other than his height. It’s certainly not his effectiveness. Josh Hart could protect the rim better than him.
While I think Mitch will make a big difference and more than offset what is lost without more spacing, I also have come to believe that Thibs is simply not a flexible enough coach to get the most out of this roster. As CBJ said, how about some zone? More switches? Different lineups? However much the failure is about guys simply missing assignments and making mistakes (transition lapses have nothing to do with KAT), a good portion of it is simply on the coach not making adjustments for his personnel.
Problem being…. Who out there would do better? I was part of a vocal contingent here who wanted Atkinson (which seems to have been validated), but now? I didn’t see good options.
And before you say, Jay Wright… Come on. This is a win-now roster, and even if he were interested (which he seems not to be), do you take a chance on a college coach who’s never even assisted in the NBA?
No, that’s how it started.
Then it pivoted to a more general critique of Thibs’ scheme:
Reading Is Fundamental. If you’re going to go out on a limb and call something the dumbest thing you’ve ever seen on the blog, make sure you follow the whole conversation.
at least KAT himself is smart enough to know he’s better at power forward…
if anyone is to blame for the ills of this season, it’s the front office…
folks post about our injury “good” fortune this season:
– no starting center, still
– precious was hurt
– deuce was hurt
– shamet was hurt
truth seems to be – when you look at our starters mpg a good part of that is due directly to injuries…
we started the season flawed, and yet there only seems to be three teams out there we can’t compete with…
26 other NBA teams, we are in it to win it…
yell.me I’m wrong 🙃
mitch mitch mitch mitch
how many games will he need to return to an effective form…
starting to wonder who’ll be the 6th seed…
True for Dray, though Kerr really had his hand forced because of injuries, but this isn’t the 90s and Bam is a 6’10” big who plays in the post. There’s not a team in the league that wouldn’t have played him at C.
KAT’s playing the 5 because the other options are Precious, Sims, and Hukporti who vary in ability between below average and awful. It’s cute to think Hart could do it but he’s 6’4″ and 215 lbs; that’s a lot smaller than Dray who doesn’t actually play the 5 that often.
Yes, exactly. Thibs’s “rim protection” isn’t really and actually rim protection. Or interior defense.
Which is why among the very first pieces of data I posted was the fact that the Knicks are fifth in the NBA in FG% allowed from 0-3 feet.
They, however, are third from the bottom in 0-3 feet rim attempts allowed.
So to repeat: The Knicks are not bad at protecting the rim. The Knicks are very good at protecting the rim. The Knicks are poor at letting teams get to the rim.
It’s hard to see how Mitchell Robinson is going to fix that equation.
The Knicks are also poor at letting teams get to 3-10 feet — eighth worst in the association. Once teams get there, the excellent 0-3 feet FG percentage allowed the Knicks show fades away. They’re 23rd in FG% allowed from that distance.
Teams get to spots on the floor they want to get to far too easily against the Knicks. This is a perimeter problem. It’s sure as shit not a Thibsian “rim protection” problem.
So again, not about shot blocking.
Nice, a thread about K.D. !!
KAT’s defense, i mean! 😀
Hey look, I was right! E wasn’t talking about shot blocking!
That’s still a KAT problem, though. It’s a Brunson and Bridges problem, too, but Boston had a field day getting KAT switched onto Tatum and blowing by him.
Well apparently Thibs just now called Mitch “our starting center” at a press conference…
EDIT: Wrong tab hit on bb ref. The Knicks are actually ok at permitting shots from 3-10 feet, 9th in the NBA. Their percentage allowed still sucks from there as initially posted.
I think you’re failing to understand that there are two points being discussed at the same time.
To the extent he’s responsible for what would be a 3-10 foot shot, or a shot not taken at all, against a better defender, yes he is.
There’s another problem with Thibs not being flexible and not making adjustments. Teams will have an easy time game planning to play us in the playoffs. And then Thibs will have to make a counter, to try to balance the series, and instead of going to some scheme we tried during the regular season, we’ll have to try new stuff. That doesn’t seem ideal.
I’m leaving E at the station now, though! I want nothing to do with what comes after this.
LOL.
No, I totally understand that. It’s the same two points E’s been making since Dec 30, 2023:
Point 1: RJ Barrett is awesome
Point 2: OG Anunoby sucks
It’s much more than that.
You know the reason teams drive to the rim more against KAT than they do against Wemby isn’t bc our perimeter defense is worse than the Spurs, right?
This is where I start to defend Thibs. Because I know we’d have a different defense but it would probably still suck.
Happy to hear Thibs referred to Mitch as our starting Center, though. Now I wonder who headed to the bench.
I fear some kind of “deterrence” idea embedded in the Wemby “challenge,” but let me deter you from that by pointing you to the fact that Golden State has led the league (by a lot over even the number two) in lowest percentage of shots allowed at the rim each of the last two years, and is last in the same category from 3-10 feet this year. Golden State prevents teams who are challenging the rim area from getting to the rim area.
Keeping teams from where they want to go and away from the rim is a critical defensive skill. (*) It has little to do with the fact that teams are “scared” to go in there. Teams get to the rim against the Knicks because they can, not because it’s so juicy once they get there — which it isn’t, because if it was, teams wouldn’t be shooting the fifth lowest percentage in the league once they get there.
The Knicks’ perimeter defense simply isn’t any good, in multiple dimensions. (**) They get lit up from downtown, and teams get where they want to go too easily — including to the rim. I did note that you included “Bridges” in the bad defender list upthread, and that’s correct and we’re now at the point where they have three poor defenders and that pretty much by itself explains the poor defense. Some of it is likely scheme, but whatever the reason, they aren’t good at it.
That said, maybe it isn’t “deterrence” you’re getting at and I’m missing something.
(*) And most likely Draymond’s defensive excellence contributes mightily to GS keeping teams from getting to the rim once they get to the point where they’re threatening getting there.
(**) Note here that as already noted, perimeter defense includes KAT, who’s no good at it. This isn’t just a wing problem.
To be clear, I thought he was talking about fake rim protection, which was why he said “rim protection” instead of rim protection.
But now that he’s saying we actually have excellent rim protection, I think I’m as lost as you. Although you might be on to something when you suggest this is all going to come back to RJ Barrett somehow.
You’re not lost. “Rim protection,” quotes, mocks Thibs and his equation of it with shot blocking and height. Rim protection, no quotes, is the correct term for “keeping teams from putting the ball in the basket around the rim area.” The Knicks are actually good at rim protection even though they have no “rim protector.” You had it right the first time.
Nah. You guys are the obsessed ones with the guy. I just follow the data.
Hart coming off the bench… No? KAT off the bench would be the supersonic move.
But you think we’re good at protecting the rim.
Hubert, probably right. I don’t think we’d be a top 10 D I don’t think we’d be sagging on the 3pt shooters every time a screen happens or seeing wings run like lunatics trying to help on D on a blow by drive.
This team is long and when they decide to, can actually play passing lanes fairly well. A hybrid zone would probably be the best option to run instead of treating KAT like he’s Mitch or iHart and funnel the drive into him. Mitch being in Will 100% help on that end. We will lose some offense since the lane is open for KAT to drive and the opponents can easily leave Mitch wide open on the block since he can’t shoot at all. I’m
Interested to see how that works out.
And I’m assuming Josh is going to see the bench, even though bridges should until he goes back to whatever therapist he went to for December and he understands not to run directly into the screen like Wiley E Coyote.
Unless I’m hitting the wrong tab in BBRef, teams are shooting .667 at the rim this year against the Knicks. They shot .660 last year, and .666 the year before. This is a typical Knicks year in rim protection.
They were 11th worst in letting teams get to the rim in ’23 and ’24; they’re third worst this year.
How do you propose measuring it if not “FG% allowed from 0-3 feet”? All ears.
Because in terms of not letting teams put the ball in the basket from the rim area when they shoot the ball from the rim area — which sure seems like a pretty good way to measure it — the Knicks are right in line this year with the last two years.
I’m comfortable submitting the eye test on this one.
Gotta be Hart off the bench. Can’t have 2 non shooters on the floor. Plus Hart is your Swiss army knife you can plug in anywhere
Yes, we are — and that’s a perimeter defense issue and a “teams get to the rim too much” issue.
I don’t really want to belabor the “perimeter vs. interior” thing either; the main point there is that a lot of this is likely Thibs’s scheme. The “rim protection” idea was only thrown in there to show that he’s kind of clueless about that idea, too. To be entirely fair, there has been some slippage; they’re fifth in rim protection now whereas they were second and third the last two years, so it’s not quite as good as it’s been — but it’s still very good.
it seems they are the most duplicative players on the team, with josh being the least costly and better playing option…
ugh, never thought I’d think it, but deuce is a better option than mikal out on the floor right now…
I think Josh is more mentally prepared to move to the bench without thinking it’s a demotion. Bridges seems like he may have a hard time with it.
But Josh has been our third best player by a wide margin.
cgreene makes sense about the shooters but what if we pivoted to being a dominant boards team instead of an eFG% team? Imagine how many offensive rebounds Josh would get with teams boxing out Towns and Mitch. We’d be like the ’23 team on steroids. That might actually be harder for Cleveland and Boston to deal with.
I think it’s just a bad defensive players issue.
Absolutely. That’s the primary cause, the data just show the results.
There’s no sense in which Josh Hart deserves to go to the bench instead of Mikal, but of course deserve’s often got nothing to do with this.
I’m not sure what E is talking about, I admittedly only skimmed the thread after a long day in court, but our DFG% from fewer than 6 feet from the rim is 63.7%, which is 19th in the league, and 20th if you measure it by difference between our DFG% and the average FG% of shooters.
Mitch Mitch!
The shot data on BBRef.
Shots from six feet are not shots at the rim.
The Knicks are 16th in the league in opponent rim frequency.
Again, not really sure what E is getting at, but rim protection is in fact a big problem for the Knicks.
The perimeter issue and the interior issue are the same issue. KAT gets targeted as in the PnR and drops allowing the ball handler to get into the paint without enough resistance to allow the defender who was originally screened to recover. Therefore, the perimeter defense has failed but it’s still because they are targeting KAT.
(Poor KAT. He’s really taking a beating last few days. Lol)
“The Knicks are 16th in the league in opponent rim frequency.”
Rim frequency is not rim protection and we’ve already been through the distinction between getting to the rim and succeeding once you get there — at length.
Your stalking of me has become a bit odd. Your new girlfriend is probably much more interesting. I really hope you’re not thinking of me in court.
Thibs is perplexing but never clueless. The man takes shits that know more about basketball than most of us. There’s a part of me that actually trusts if he is doing it this way, the other way is worse.
But then there is a part of me that sees a man like my dad, a retired accountant who knows more about money than I ever will but who has been writing covered calls for 20 years instead of passively investing and actually brags about never losing money even though he’s been flat since ’06.
Stalkerblogger is what we do around here…
Kind of like drafting Frank to play in the triangle as a defender and ball mover and then playing him traditional PG when he can’t handle or finish. 😉
Or he’s continuing to do it this way because the rim protection data isn’t that bad!
“Clueless” was internet poetic license. He’s not remotely clueless. He’s a very good basketball coach.
“Stalking” is when one Knickerblogger poster corrects the erroneous rim protection data of another Knickerblogger poster
I’m starting to fall for this idea, actually.
As Noble said the other day, “let Brunson cook” is still our best option. Why not let him cook with three elite offensive rebounders in the game.
Plus I think Bridges getting to be the man on a 2nd unit with Deuce might actually be better for him than being a passenger on the 1st unit.
Kind of like drafting Frank
to play in the triangle as a defender and ball mover and then playing him traditional PG when he can’t handle or finish.😉Stalkerblogger is what we do around here now? Yuck.
I’d prefer it with some more of the actual guys on the ’23 roster (/wry emoji), but at this point it’s probably worth going back to Moneyball. Mikal being a bust has kind of taken the sheen off the new, modern style and we know damn well Thibs would prefer Moneyball.(*)
So we’re ’23ing again. First overall in playoff defense is probably a bridge too far in terms of hope, but that’s why they play the games. Hopefully, they’ll be healthier than ’23.
A thousand percent.
(*) And his “rim protection.”
Unlike the Knicks, KB is at full steam… encouraging people to read, stalkers and fantastic mysteries… great stuff, people, carry on please! 😉 😀
This is an interesting question I started contemplating more carefully this morning. I was auto-pilot assuming it would be Hart, but maybe that’s wrong. I think a good case can be made that Hart has been better then Bridges overall but Bridges would be better as a main scoring option and 6th man off the bench than Hart.
The spacing gets a little iffy with Mitch, Towns, OG, Hart and Brunson but it may be a better team and sure as hell would wreak havoc on the boards again like last year!
Would Thibs put Mikal on the bench after we paid so much?
Would Mikal accept being put on the bench if it clearly helped the team?
I’m not suggesting this IS the answer, but it could be an answer that hasn’t been considered enough yet that might actually work very well.
I missed both the “encouraging people to read” and “fantastic mysteries” sections. Ah, well. 🙂
In terms of Thibs, this is a point where his instincts align very well with proper basketball sense and if he can follow them, he’ll send Mikal to the bench and keep Josh Hart deservedly in the starting lineup.
Given the politics, might not be possible. Hopefully, it will happen.
imagine it noble, E might be you in another 20 years or so…
Even Warren Buffett makes mistakes. 😉
I admire the commitment to the bit but not only do we have much better players now but the players who are the same are much better than they were.
Watch me deftly subvert what you were about to say…
Towns is better than RJ
OG is better than Grimes
Bridges is better than Randle
And Brunson, Hart, Deuce have all improved
wait, what?
did thibs recently call mitch our starting center in an interview somewhere?
I got so distracted by the noble/E thing I may have missed it…
Hearing the Thibs/Mitch news makes me wonder if Thibs purposefully stuck with KAT at C doing mostly drop coverage because he wanted to keep the schemes the same for when Mitch came back?
Honestly, I could see the benefit of Mikal or Hart going to the bench. I think we’ve seen Mikal play better with the starters and do more Josh Hart type stuff when Hart has been out but both could be primary ball handlers/offense initiators for the bench.
I don’t think politics would play a part in who goes to the bench or, rather, you could make a team politics argument either way.
Hart and Mikal are both Nova cats but Hart is obviously closer to the captain and also has seniority and has, quite frankly, played much better than Mikal. Yes we gave up all those picks for Mikal but, at this point, it’s a sunk cost. Whatever “uproar” there would be by moving Mikal to the bench would go away quickly if it drastically improved the team.
That sounds very Thibs.
Fuck it’s 3:20 and I committed to not going on knickerblogger today so I could get work done.
latest thibs interview…hoping when we put jalen, deuce, OG, KAT, mitch out on the court – we’ll be able to play more competitively against the top 3 teams…
one of whom if we are lucky we will see in the second round…
They do have better players now than in ’23; KAT is a clear, legitimate all-star and Randle was both a playoff bust and banged up in ’23. The other guys aren’t worth bothering with droning on in further discussion.
Suffice it to say that if they hold the Cavs to a 93.1 ORat and hold the Celtics (or whomever) to 104.3 ppg, their lowest ppg average of any team they play in the playoffs, we’ll all be happy. Generally speaking, given all the factors at play, their punchers’ chance is higher if they go back to Moneyball. (Assuming health of course.)
The Timberwolves specifically went out to get a defensive center to pair with Towns and the Wolves ended up having both had an excellent defense, and making it to the Western Conference Finals. Mitch isn’t Gobert, but it’ll be nice to at least see what that looks like.
Dude, cut it out! The money ball thing was a term I came up with that meant something totally different before you rebranded it. You did the same thing with mezzanine, too.
The original moneyball reference was me suggesting that we weren’t actually good at 3 pt defense, that our whole strategy was selling out to protect the rim and giving up open shots while counting on variance to be our defense.
This was actually very controversial at the time because we had the best 3 pt % defense in the league when I posited it, and Z-Man was selling the ridiculous idea that Thibs had studied film of all the shooters in the league and was effectively training his players to funnel their opponents into shooting wide open shots they were bad at making. In fact, not only was he selling that idea, he was saying you were stupid if you didn’t think Thibs’ 3 pt defense schemes were for real! Talk about the dumbest idea ever posted on the blog; sheesh, that one aged about as well as Bill Cosby.
But seriously, E, Moneyball wasn’t offensive rebounding. Come up with your own terms, man! I don’t want to come back here in two weeks and see you calling Mitch’s free throw shooting our thermal exhaust port.
That is what I was thinking, except I think Bridges starts for Hart and we close with Hart over whoever isn’t having the best game. I like Bridges coming in with Deuce for the second unit.
I go bac and forth but I think it might be better for the team if Hart is on the bench and Mikal still starts.
Better 3 point shooting/spacing with the starting unit and Hart can go Ham with the bench.
For what it’s worth, I vote for Mikal off the bench. Harts intensity is a driving force which the knicks desparately require. Mikal, not so much, but highly valuable off the bench IMO. The unit with Deuce, Mikal and Cam would be most entertaining and could dominate as a second unit.
Add in Precious and we have a very solid 9 man rotation. Can’t wait to see Mitch back.
Mitch has never averaged more than 27 or 28 minutes a game, so there should be plenty of minutes to go around still when he gets back. I don’t know if Thibs will have KAT be the starting 4 and backup 5 with maybe a sprinkle of Precious
If that Thibs theory is correct and Mitch comes back and starts and the defense dramatically improves then good on Thibs and bad on those of us who doubted him. Because it makes sense in terms of making the transition smoother.
Maybe Thibs thinks: look we have the 3 seed wrapped up without our starting center. The best way to work him in is to keep the scheme the same as he’s used to then I think that’s probably a nice bit of business by Thibs
Nah, the better theory is that Thibs is an absolute moron who has no idea what the fuck he’s doing and he should be shot into the sun immediately.
E, can you stop harping on the ’23 playoff defense where we played an 11 game sample and the majority of it was against the 25th best offense?
You know it’s a dumb argument.
Also, hard no on starting Hart alongside Mitch. Have we forgotten how shitty Hart has been on offense next to a nonshooting big? We have plenty of rebounding on both ends with Mitch/KAT.
Wait, you think Thibs might have intentionally tanked the defense for four months just so he didn’t have to come up with a new idea… and you think that makes him look good?
And how exactly does it “make the transition smoother” if Towns now has to transition to an entirely new role with 2 months left? Shouldn’t we have been giving him lots of practice at the 4 if that was ultimately the plan?
Only 130 posts so far but it feels like 250. Glad Cyber’s enjoying it…
No, actually it’s been pretty interesting. But I am going to have to spend some time in the hot tub later to deal with the whiplash…
And he foresaw this way back in October when he began implementing the plan.
And he held firm all year even when the results were horrible and it seemed like Mitch may never come back.
All along he had a better defense he could have used, but he kept it in his back pocket because a future smooth transition was more important to him than today’s game.
Even better, the plan is entirely contingent on one of the most fragile players in the NBA coming back from multiple cascading injuries spanning over a year, returning to near full effectiveness, and staying healthy throughout 20+ games and an entire playoff run.
Let me premise this on a healthy Mitch within a reasonable timeframe. I hear what you are saying Great Clown regarding Hart’s offensive woes with a non-shooting big. On the other hand, Hart brings a great deal to the table and Mikal is too passive, perhaps in particular with the starters. Passivity kills IMO. I think with Kat and Brunson, plus the additional offensive rebound possessions Mitch generates, the offense should be fine-and the defense stifling once again. So I would still vote for Hart to start.
https://x.com/millsportsmedia/status/1894417500005110264
LOL
Yeah, Thibs never treats today’s game like it is a game 7 of the playoffs. He’s known for thinking long term even if it sacrifices today’s game. LOLOL
The results have not been horrible. I’m having a good time.
Also… I think the intimation is not that Thibs had a better defensive strategy that could raise the ceiling for the team, but rather that the only way to raise the ceiling is currently a non active player on the team. As challenged as Jalen is physically on defense and as challenged as KAT on defense is spiritually well just lose much more respectably to the big three. We still lose. He’s gambling for sure, but it’s really his last chip.
Hey Doogie, do you think it would be cool if we started calling Towns’ work protecting the interior as his rim job? Mike Breen might read it here and start incorporating it into the commentary when Towns gets a rare but enthusiastic block? I think it could be fun because by rim job we would be referring to Towns earning his $50,000,000 annual salary by playing helpful defense, but it also presents a double entendre of sorts, for people who like a plurality of interpretations. I’m kind of feeling it. You?
It’s alright; it’s kind of funny…….but I am hardly the arbiter of what we do and don’t do here. And of course Breen would (could) never use it. 🙂
More of what Clarence was saying. It’s not that he had a much better scheme but he knew he was fucked without Mitch so don’t change it. Towns was a stop gap 5. And really came here to replace Julius. Not be the 5.
And I never said he was scheming this since October. He didn’t know what he had then. He actually may have thought Mitch would be back in Dec as originally reported. And when they started winning and he got clarity on Mitch’s timeline he made the decision. Also I never said this happened just that some of the concept is plausible and if so good on him.
Also didn’t KAT just spend a year playing the 4 in a very successful defense?
I think there is a lot of retconning going on in the Knicks organization right now. I doubt the reports of Mitch’s extreme availability via trade were unfounded.
You could convince me that Thibs never considered devising a better scheme because this is what he always wanted. But you can’t convince me that makes him look smart. I think it makes him look terrible.
Enjoyed this from Luka
https://x.com/alexismorgan/status/1894533683580997770?s=46&t=0wqff4cNt-sCGcDs-uMExw
Also, I saw E on the street today and he made that Barrett jersey look GOOD
The good news is that nobody here really has to convince you of anything. Thibs just might.
Let’s take you then. What would convince you that it was smart to put KAT in drop coverage with terrible results for the last 4 months just to keep things the same for when Mitch comes back?
I know that you seem to be asking Clarence…….but personally speaking for myself, it would take quite a lot. It really doesn’t make a lick of sense to me.
I guess the problem I’m having (just one of them) with this argument is what was the alternative? Playing Precious at the 5? Sims (RIP)? Huk? The last would have improved my mood but likely not the team.
KAT is probably as bad at defense as any of those three, for various and different reasons, but he also scores 24 pt/g and gets almost 14 rebounds per. You kind of have to play him, and I don’t think as a wing is an option.
Edit — ah, Hubie cleverly changed “at the 5” to “in drop coverage” while I was typing. Yeah, I might give you drop coverage.
Oh I don’t know. I’m a sucker for meaningful wins. The kind that make me feel like I’m the Kool Aid man bursting into my own life. Winning a round we’re supposed to lose… maybe getting close to or winning the next… feeling like the soul of the team was right moving into next year.
“Kool Aid Man bursting into my own life” was pretty damn good.
The alternative is not suggesting that our terrible defense is actually a next level chess move that proves Thibs has been thinking about the long game and we were all too slow to recognize what was up.
Thibs didn’t change it because Thibs doesn’t change anything, and treating KAT like he’s Mitch doesn’t make you smart.
Hubert keeps taking the thought out of context. It’s not some grand plan that was cooked up at the beginning. It (KAT in drop) started based on limited options. It led to a significant number of wins despite itself which then allowed Thibs to keep the scheme with some sort of plan of how it was going to work when Mitch came back and KAT moved to the 4. So he kept it and he has a plan.
I dunno. With Thibs I almost feel like it’s less a chess move and more punching the great white in the motherfucking eye.
But it’s going to work completely differently with Mitch because Mitch is good.
And wouldn’t it make more sense for him to have a plan for when Mitch isn’t available, since that is going to be most of the time?
One that has performed to the fifth best record in the nba, as a backup, to what could be a better team. That plan might be okay. Not great. But not Lou Amondsun. Sp?
Hypothetical: you’re Thibs. You just ran through Memphis Houston Denver on a big home stand. Your offense is elite and your D has been adequate. You’re a bit more than half way. OG then gets hurt. KAT and Hart are banged up too. You get to the break after getting pummeled again by Boston. Medical is telling you Mitch will be back March 1. You get out of the break and the wheels come off against Cleveland and Boston again. You’ve been pondering a tactical change that looks very necessary. But Mitch is coming back and making that change alters how you would play when he gets back. So you sit on it. Take your lumps. Wait for Mitch. And roll the dice that your original defensive scheme is going to work best with that personnel. It’s not a fucking conspiracy theory.
That’s some Jonestown shit right there.
Yeah that makes sense cgreene but you moved the goal posts 60 yards from where Swifty had them.
Z-man posted an article at the time from The Athletic (I believe Fred Katz wrote it) that backed up what he actually said (which is not what Hubert wrote, but that’s pretty ironic coming from a guy who think no one actually understands the genius of his posting, not even ptmilo is up to the task:
I feel pretty comfortable in assuming that Thibs, or someone on his staff, looks at film of nearly every rotation player on every team, and had all kinds of info based on that film. Otherwise, why would the Knicks sue the Raps for getting the former Knicks employee to share all of that inside info?
Not that the “funnelling” idea is rocket science. Anyone who paid attention watched the Celts daring first Hart and then Precious to shoot. Every coach in the NBA does this to a degree.
The article also mentioned that Thibs prefers that his defenders keep players in front of them and not go for steals. This was offered as a defense for RJ’s low deflection numbers.
And I would love for you to find the post where I said this: ‘funnel their opponents into shooting wide open shots they were bad at making.” If you can’t (and you actually can’t), you should be a little less prickly about being misquoted. But no one needs to do that to make you look stupid, as you are in this entire thread. My fave was this one from yesterday:
“Thibs is perplexing but never clueless. The man takes shits that know more about basketball than most of us. There’s a part of me that actually trusts if he is doing it this way, the other way is worse.”
Shoulda just stopped there.
And here.
The Knicks were on a 55-win pace before playing Cleveland and Boston. The only results Thibs cares about is winning. So I don’t see where “horrible” fits anywhere in this scenario.
Honestly, Love Lies Bleeding was better than the Substance.
What does Jonestown shit mean? Ha
I took Swifty’s concept and made it pragmatic albeit much less exciting.
I have no idea I’m an idiot – something about cool aid and making shit up that people really believed. I thought you made a smart clear point.
Amundson. He wasn’t particularly good, but he was still way better than I am.
If I was a Mavs fan I would be so mad
Sitting next to one and all they can talk about is how they loved Hakeem Olajuwon. It’s an interesting moment down here.