Knicks Morning News (2024.12.19)

67 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.12.19)”

How ’bout those Mets?

Just kidding. Here’s an interview with Julius and DDV. I still miss them and wonder about what could have been.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A_kSDZQShg

I wish those guys the best, but I have come to the conclusion that it was the right decision by the front office. The Brunson/KAT combo puts the Knicks in great position to compete for the next 3 or 4 years. I was hoping the Knicks would have tried Julius at the 5, but realistically we are a better team now. Donte had a career year last year. Who knows if he will ever be able to repeat it.

“I wish those guys the best, but I have come to the conclusion that it was the right decision by the front office.”

The trade was pretty much a no-brainer on paper. But did it actually make us better in the context of losing iHart and trading all of our picks for Mikal? We’ll see. So far, I’m not convinced, but we still have time to gel further. It’s really all about Mitch and Mikal right now.

“The Brunson/KAT combo puts the Knicks in great position to compete for the next 3 or 4 years.”

Compete for what? Right now we are clearly not competing for a championship without an enormous amount of luck, unpredictable internal improvement, or some crazy good move by Leon. We are largely devoid of trade capital to further improve the team and are bumping up against he second apron.

“Donte had a career year last year. Who knows if he will ever be able to repeat it.”

In the interview I posted above, Donte reminded everyone that he was not very good at this point last year either, when he was largely playing 20mpg coming off the bench behind Grimes. I kinda feel bad for the guy, he’s on his 4th team in 4 years and he’s had to adjust to a new city, team, role, and coach every year. I personally have no doubt that he would have picked up where he left off if not for the trade.

-Losing IHart was the first domino in the chain of events that led us to making the trade. That was unavoidable.

-Like Donte, Mikal has bounced around a bit the last few years. I have no doubt that he is still a quality two-way, if not quite the poa defender we had hoped for. He and the coaching staff will figure things out.

-I think we can compete for a championship. We have a 50-win team right now. We have Mitch coming back at some point. I don’t think Precious is at his best yet. We have some young players with potential, although I wish we had taken Dunn instead of Dadiet.

-We also probably have enough ammo to cobble together one more trade.

Yep.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/43044333/how-karl-anthony-towns-transforming-knicks-offense

-Like Donte, Mikal has bounced around a bit the last few years.

Hardly a fair characterization.

DDV DID bounce around… signed a 2 year 9.3M contract w/GS and then a 4 year 50M contract after being allowed to walk by Sacto and traded by the Bucks for a song.

Bridges, OTOH was traded as the primary piece in the KEVIN DURANT trade and then to the Knicks for the kings ransom (5 unprotected picks). Hardly bouncing around.

The trade was pretty much a no-brainer on paper.

But did it actually make us better in the context of losing iHart and trading all of our picks for Mikal? We’ll see. So far, I’m not convinced, but we still have time to gel further. It’s really all about Mitch and Mikal right now.

A lot of people didn’t think it was a no brainer at the time.

The rest is the 64k question.

The unresolved question is whether in some alternate universe where we could keep I-Hart, add Bridges and still have Randle (PF) and Donte (6th man) would we be a better team?

I think the answer to that is YES.

What we gained on offense by adding Towns and Bridges (that was the no brainer part) we lost on defense, depth and trade flexibility by losing I-Hart.

IMO, this season was always about how much losing I-Hart for nothing set Leon’s plans back in the quest for a multi-year championship run. I still question whether he would have gone all in on Bridges if he was fairly certain we were going to lose I-Hart.

“-Losing IHart was the first domino in the chain of events that led us to making the trade. That was unavoidable.”

Agreed that losing iHart was unavoidable. But other than that, everything that followed was a choice, meaning that one didn’t necessarily lead to the other. In other words, I find it hard to imagine that with 5 first round picks and remaining cap flexibility, Leon couldn’t have found a reasonably high-level rim protecting replacement for iHart. Instead, Leon chose to sacrifice the linchpin of Thibs’ defensive strategy for an elite offensive C who sucks at rim protection. It would be argued that while getting KAT on the cheap was a tactical win, it pigeonholes the Knicks into a “pick your poison” strategic situation. Do you play KAT at his best offensive position at C and live with opponents attacking the rim and paint, or do you move him to the 4 and live with a rim-protecting but offensively inept C?

Thus far, Thibs has gone with door #1. Is it working? Eh. But door #2 won’t really be available until Mitch returns, and who knows when that will be…or until a trade for a more durable option. Either way, there is nothing close to certainty that the finished product will be ready to beat any of the teams we will likely face in the second round, let alone the conference finals or NBA finals.

“-Like Donte, Mikal has bounced around a bit the last few years. I have no doubt that he is still a quality two-way, if not quite the poa defender we had hoped for. He and the coaching staff will figure things out.”

I have been among the voices of patience with Mikal and totally believe that he will get better and better, to the benefit of our chances. But choosing to invest all of our remaining picks in a non-perennial all-star or DPoY candidate is unprecedented. I think that, like the KAT trade, it was a defensible tactical but questionable strategic choice. I strongly believe that unless you are “done” after making such a move, you can’t afford to be without a single one of the most desireable assets…unprotected firsts.

“-I think we can compete for a championship. We have a 50-win team right now. We have Mitch coming back at some point. I don’t think Precious is at his best yet.”

I am not with you on this. The main reason is that our two long-shot MVP candidates are both well below average defensively, and quite honestly I’m not as enamored with their offense as most here. Teams are going to load up on Brunson and KAT and make OG, Mikal, and Hart beat us, and on the other end, they are going to force help against Brunson and KAT and create space for open 3’s and lanes to the basket. Precious, bless his heart, is not up to the task of correcting either issue. Mitch is a much better answer, but can’t stay healthy. And ny trade we “cobble together” is not likely to result in a player who doesn’t have holes in his game.

BTW, Milwaukee has looked very good as of late, and the way they played in the Cup, they are looking like a team to be reckoned with going forward. Lillard seems to be hitting his stride, which is huge for them. I’ve been a Doc Rivers basher over the years, but he deserves credit for the turnaround.

Teams are going to load up on Brunson and KAT

Question. How do you load up on 2 elite offensive players when you have 2 other guys on the floor who shoot close to 40 percent from 3 and another guy who is a great jack of all trades guy and is also shooting very well from 3.

You can’t load up on both of them at the same time. You have to pick your poison.

Obvs other teams have great 1-2 punches too but we’ve got maybe the best 1-2 offensive duo in the league right now.

The defense and rebounding is much more of an issue, IMO.

If Mikal was a DPOY candidate, all-Defense type player, we’d be in a lot better shape. Unfortunately it is pretty clear he is not that kind of player. Maybe there is some way to scheme some better defense out of him, but he quite clearly does not appear to be an elite defender.

Given that unfortunate reality, there’s not really any realistic way to look at the trade for Mikal and not conclude that it was a major blunder. The trade where you send out five unprotected firsts is really not the one you want to fuck up, but it appears that is exactly what happened.

That trade likely shut the window on this team contending for a title. The opportunity cost of that one is just devastating. There were better ways to use those picks. It’s still a pretty good team, and should be in the playoffs every year, but I’m squinting at it real hard and I can’t see a realistic path to title contention.

Swift, I am partially with you, but not completely. I don’t think Brunson-KAT scares other teams as much as you do. I won’t get into debating the reasons since it triggers some folks here, but whatever. It comes down to: can our offensive strengths make up for our defensive weaknesses on nights when our shots aren’t falling?

And that’s my issue right now. We seem like a team that is highly vulnerable to both elite defenses and 3-point variance. That’s true for any team, but I think it’s more true for us than for BOS and OKC for sure, and possibly for CLE, DAL, MIL, MEM, and others as well. If Mitch comes back healthy and Mikal steps up, maybe that changes. But for now, I really don’t like the way we look against shitty and/or undermanned teams, much less the elite teams at full strength.

Tonight is a very good teat (jk!) Minny is going to be fired up, and has the players to contain both KAT and Jalen. Julius and DDV are going to try to stick it up Thibs’ and Leon’s asses. I’d be more impressed if we win than surprised if we lost, but it needs to be a competitve game. If we go in and take it to them, that will be a very, very good sign.

“But choosing to invest all of our remaining picks in a non-perennial all-star or DPoY candidate is unprecedented.”

Agree but part of the reason for the “unprecedentedness” is that no good players were going the other way (in part because Bojan’s option made it work salary-wise). The multiple draft pick comps–all for better players–all had at least rotation-level or high upside players involved. Not saying it was a fair trade or even close to it, but there were unique aspects involved that make comparisons harder.

Best case scenario is that Mikal comes around and we contend or are close to contending so that the value of all the picks mean we won the trade. As opposed to how I feel about the KAT/Julius-DDV swap–best case is not that we won the trade but KAT elevates us to a level Julius and DDV couldn’t do for whatever reason but Julius and DDV perform so well elsewhere that no one won that trade.

So tonight I want Julius and DDV to shine (not because of our poor defense, but because of their skills), KAT to dominate, and we eke out a win because of our new-found resilience.

“Swift, I am partially with you, but not completely. I don’t think Brunson-KAT scares other teams as much as you do.”

I don’t think that other teams are scared of Swift, either. 🙂

“Tonight is a very good teat (jk!)”

LOL!

The KAT and Bridges trades were two completely separate transactions. One did not depend on the other.

The KAT trade is our saving grace right now. If we just ran back last year’s team sans iHart, we’d be worse, and probably substantially worse. Same goes for if we ran back last year’s team but also made the Mikal trade.

Our offense would obviously be worse without KAT, and our defense probably would too–if you don’t like KAT at the 5, wait ’til you see Randle at the 5.

The Mikal trade has gone from “unmitigated disaster” to “poor use of resources” in the last few weeks, as he’s looked a lot more like the guy we thought we were getting recently. Ultimately, it’ll be a failure if he doesn’t get good enough to make the team ECFs and beyond caliber.

Yeah mathematically you can’t really “load up” on 2 players. I think our offense will continue to be excellent.

“That trade likely shut the window on this team contending for a title. The opportunity cost of that one is just devastating. There were better ways to use those picks. It’s still a pretty good team, and should be in the playoffs every year, but I’m squinting at it real hard and I can’t see a realistic path to title contention.”

Not to play both sides of the argument, but considering all the ink spilled here about how Mitch was our “best player” it seems premature to conclude that what you see is what you get. Having a dominant rim-protector and offensive rebounder who makes your team that much bigger and pushes one of your starters into the bench mob for 15-20 mpg while having yet another answer for opposing 2-big (Orlando w/ Franz and Paolo) or even twin towers lineups (CLE, MIL, OKC when Chet gets healthy). There’s also the very realistic possibility of adding a critical depth piece on low-cost deadline trade, a vet’s minimum deal, or on the waiver wire during buyout season. Finally, there’s ways to pivot out of some players to reconfigure…none on our current roster are on anything close to an albatross contract.

In other words, while I am concerned, I think there are ways forward that will require some luck (e.g Mitch staying healthy) and creativity from Thibs (or whoever) and Leon.

But other than that, everything that followed was a choice, meaning that one didn’t necessarily lead to the other. In other words, I find it hard to imagine that with 5 first round picks and remaining cap flexibility, Leon couldn’t have found a reasonably high-level rim protecting replacement for iHart. Instead, Leon chose to sacrifice the linchpin of Thibs’ defensive strategy for an elite offensive C who sucks at rim protection.

LONG POST BUT TAKE THE TWO MINUTES TO READ IT.

The point I’ve been bringing up repeatedly and even earlier in this thread is that Bridges came first! There is no other solid information, just probabilities.

At the time we all knew there was a risk of losing I-Hart, but a lot of very smart people (including Marks) were throwing around salaries we could match or that would be close enough to our offer for him to stay if he preferred NY (which even now I’d say was his preference all else being similar).

So the question is, if Leon knew with almost certainly that we were losing I-Hart (I don’t think he did), would he have gone all in on Bridges earler?

Maybe he would have used a couple of those picks to replace I-Hart and stuck with New C, Randle, OG, DDV and Brunson and still had some ammo left over.

The other thing we don’t know is when Leon realized that Mitch was going to be out WAY longer than originally projected. He probably didn’t know until well after he made the trade for the Bridges. Having Mitch mitigated the risk of losing I-Hart. If you lose I-Hart you just start Mitch and look for a backup.

But what happaned was the worst case scenario.

1. We lost I-Hart to an enormous deal from OKC that wildy overrode any preference he had to stay in NY.

2. Mitch’s recovery was way slower than anticipated back when we traded for Bridges.

Absolutely none of this was certain when he made the deal for Bridges.

We can’t know what he would have done with those picks had he known the worst case scenario would happen. We only know that once he made the Bridges deal and we lost I-Hart and Mitch, not only did we not have a starting C, we didn’t have a good backup either. So he had to do something! So he went the Towns route which is something he was always interested in, but had to juice with DDV to get done.

“Yeah mathematically you can’t really “load up” on 2 players. I think our offense will continue to be excellent.”

By “loading up” I am not specifically referring to double-teaming. I’m referring to game-planning for them to make them less efficient so that other players will decide the game. You can continue to guard Brunson with an elite defensive wing and hide your PG on Hart, Mikal or OG. You can switch and blitz on KAT to force him into making bad decisions that result in lower percentage shots, offensive fouls and turnovers. It doesn’t matter much if your excellent offense is not excellent enough to make up for your shitty defense, especially when playing teams that also have excellent offenses or are just knocking down shots that night. And in case folks haven’t noticed, the Celts and Cavs both have better offenses than we do, and their defenses are light years better.

Good article from Katz about the trade(s). His takeaway is basically mine, which is that the KAT trade has been a home run while the Mikal trade has been a dud.

DDV shooting 26% from 3 is mind-blowing. He struggled to start with us to a large extent, but even then he was still shooting over 40% from 3. That part was never in question. Inclined to think the sudden move to Minnesota is taking a toll.

IMO the Bridges trade was an overpay, but at that moment in time it was justifiable because it looked like we were very close to serious contention with I-Hart/Mitch, Randle, OG, DDV and Brunson. You add Bridges to that and move DDV to 6th man and you have a killer starting unit and bench.

Of course, as I described above then all hell broke loose at C.

The other thing people keep leaving out is that Bridges was and still is on a very attractive contract. So part of the price was financial considerations. You have to pay a HIGHER proce for a great contract that gives you more flexibility in the same way you have to attach a pick to get rid a bad one. Part of the price for Bridges was the flexibilty to add a talent like his for that price and still be able to make other moves.

re: yesterday’s ptmilo link, the man even called Bam an intriguing prospect in 2018

https://knickerblogger.net/2018/11/27/knicks-morning-news-2018-11-27/#comment-638704

What I was able to find:

https://knickerblogger.net/2021/06/22/if-they-required-multi-year-market-rate-deals-to-resign-them-which-knick-free-agents-would-you-bring-back/#comment-756161

sorry for catching a stray, Strat

This seems excruciating. I saw Knives Out in the theater three times, and without fail some dork felt compelled to yell at the screen when Craig said nobody’s read Gravity’s Rainbow. I mean I have too but dude sit down.

Being of the verbal temperament and well-readedness to have to deign for a man not of letters but of five-dollar words like me? Punishment enough. But she can, on a good day, solve a Saturday NYT sub 10m and so I went on over to Github and made her a birthday puzzle that she said was comparable to a Fri/Sat, which I take as a serious W in a way that (no offense) none of you rubes could ever hope to tally on my ledger, i.e. there are some serious perks to the rare arty-nerdy-jock mind meld when she’s drinking Guatamalan espresso (that I roasted) in an expertly-crafted mug (that she threw, fired and glazed) under my Pendleton-blanketed supervision on a dewy Stumptown morn; life is pretty ok sometimes, huh?

“The other thing people keep leaving out is that Bridges was and still is on a very attractive contract. So part of the price was financial considerations. You have to pay a HIGHER proce for a great contract that gives you more flexibility in the same way you have to attach a pick to get rid a bad one. Part of the price for Bridges was the flexibilty to add a talent like his for that price and still be able to make other moves.”

If you assume we were going to make a move w five picks (and now was the window to do it) you MUST factor in the financials into the analysis.

So before whinging that it was a bad trade. Propose a different trade or trades that were plausible, would have been better and worked financially.

Just stop with this BS unless you can do this. It’s just annoying and intellectually sloppy mental masturbation.

Also there was no world last year where we kept iHart. So stop with those scenarios as well.

I think one of the reasons that they pulled the trigger this offseason is because the new cba creates a much harder salary cap. They tried to stuff enough talent onto the roster while they still could. This team is only a third of the way through this year. I believe we will get better as the year goes on and will have a chance to shore up the rotation in the offseason. Even teams like the Heatles took more than one year to get into peak form. Look at Milwaukee this year compared to last.

Can someone just tell me who would be traded for this MyGM Jimmy Butler moment to come true?

I mean, this team is pretty exciting as-is, no?

Jowles, even though this post came out long after the election it appears to me to be the reason why we are in our current political predicament. It’s kind of like how Cronin loses games.

Nevertheless, sounds like an extremely nice situation and hopefully she is foxhole material if that is what you are looking for.

she is foxhole material, but I hope that the avian flu doesn’t force us to find out whether the next global pandemic will prove as deadly to an otherwise-blissful marriage as the last one did

Folks here actually opining that “we are concerned about the implications of the second apron” logically leads to “let’s overpay for a good not great player in a way that leave us without any unprotected picks to trade or to actually draft with at a later date.” Wow.

Makes me wonder: Would Minny have valued, say, 3 unprotected picks, Randle, and filler (Bojan? would that have worked?)as much as Randle, DDV, and scraps?

If yes, then we’d have KAT instead of Randle, DDV instead of Mikal, and 2 unprotected picks to trade for whatever else we needed. Is that a better scenario than the one we are in right now? Depends on your opinion of the delta between DDV and Bridges.

I don’t really care about baseball, but it’s fun that Cody Bellinger’s Wife is Giancarlo Stanton’s Ex.

I don’t really care about baseball, but it’s fun that Cody Bellinger’s Wife is Giancarlo Stanton’s Ex.

That’s the kind of baseball posting we need. Would also have accepted a comment about the trade being net-neutral on Codys.

also, a glutes update:

https://imgur.com/a/cHR5ROm

was looking through the old thread mister jowles shared, and noticed it looked like mister cyber had included a personal pic…very nice, what a charming debonair gentleman you appear as…

in the spirit of sharing, i give you my version of The Bad Batch 🙂

so, when i eventually get the chance to say hi in person – you’ll know it’s me…

“in the spirit of sharing, i give you my version of The Bad Batch 🙂
so, when i eventually get the chance to say hi in person – you’ll know it’s me…”

So where is it?

The KAT trade is our saving grace right now.

100%.

And the Bridges trade is whatever the opposite of saving grace is.

It’s the duality of Leon perfectly captured in one offseason.

The man has made two of the best moves in Knicks history; at the same time he’s also limited our ceiling by consistently failing the marshmallow test.

We’ve had so many arguments about Leon and at the end of the day almost everyone has been right.

Glutes look great but I think you may need some work on the Djokovic net cord apology hand wave…

Never mind, didn’t clip the tape did it. I think you need your hand a little more in the air though, make it more of a Salt Bae type thing….

Leon is definitely batting 500, lol. He’s had some misses, for sure.

You just gotta hope with whatever last move we can make that he pulls one more rabbit out of the hat. If we can find one more Brunson or KAT level heist (not that caliber of player but that level of value) or even one on the level of getting HART or OG (or 2021 DRose down the stretch), we could be really cooking.

“If we just ran back last year’s team sans iHart, we’d be worse, and probably substantially worse.”

No one was suggesting simply running back last year’s team sans iHart so I don’t understand the reason for this statement. Here was the situation going into the offseason:

DDV
Randle
JB
Hart
OG
Deuce
Cam
Precious
Whatever you could have acquired for Bojan and 5 unprotected picks (which includes 2025 MIL)
Mitch in the hole
Bojan’s corpse

So the difference between the team that tore up opponents last January (and the version without Randle and mostly without Mitch that beat Sixers in the playoffs and was on its way to beating the Pacers before OG and Brunson went down) is essentially iHart. You lost iHart but still had virtually 5 unprotected firsts plus our 2024 picks, and Bojan’s plus whoever’s salary slots to replace him.

Could we have replaced him with, say, Capela or Kessler or whoever for Bojan and two of the seven firsts we had at the end of last season? Then still had 3 firsts to make a deal for whatever else we might have been missing? If we did that, would we be worse than 16-10 right now?

I think there are lots of open questions that will not really be answered until May. Will we be in the top 4? If yes, will we beat out first round opponent if it’s IND or ATL or PHI? Will KAT be a big part of the reason why we did? If we’re outside the top-4 but reasonably healthy, are we worse than last year’s team?

As for now, I’d love to see KAT go into Minny and go all Latrell on their owner (remember Latrell’s return to MSG?) . He should get a very warm welcome at least.

also, a glutes update:

LOL Wut? You are a kid…. you are supposed to look good. Give us a ring when you are 70ish.

edit: Cam was not on last year’s closing roster.

Right. We played against him in the playoffs, assuming that you meant Payne, and not Reddish, Johnson, or Thomas.

LOL Wut? You are a kid…. you are supposed to look good. Give us a ring when you are 70ish.

how old am I, geezer

how old am I, geezer

< 73 I'd guess if you are the fellow in the link, kid.

Westchester Knicks on ESPN News at 7:30 ET.

Hart questionable for “personal reasons” isn’t good.

I see Leon getting a lot of flack here I guess due to trading for Mikal (a guy many KBers lusted after for years).

I guess I’m just wondering: what move would’ve been better?

We clearly were going to need defenders to make up for KAT and Jalen’s shortcomings on that end. But, I mean, Jimmy Butler wasn’t happening… Paul George would’ve been a disaster… Spida wouldn’t have worked… Zion is broken… Giannis was never forcing a trade but especially not to us…

Or were we supposed to draft a difference-maker in the 20s over the next four years? That doesn’t sound very likely.

Idk, I’m at peace with this team. Hopefully we can shore up the center/PF slots and make some deep playoff runs, but if not, I still can’t complain about the core Leon’s assembled.

Idk, I’m at peace with this team. Hopefully we can shore up the center/PF slots and make some deep playoff runs, but if not, I still can’t complain about the core Leon’s assembled.

Westchester Knicks on ESPN News at 7:30 ET.

… glutes to follow later on Channel J.

maybe pay the toll for Kessler when we found out mitch wouldn’t be ready for half the season…

hang on to julius and ddv…

I think though we did right by adding KAT…

How the hell is this a 930 game

It’s in Minnesota.

Ess et. al. It’s not really a valid question. Who knew that the trades we made were actually available before they happened? Who knows what would have been available for what we had to offer, meaning some combo of players and 7 firsts?

hell of a goalpost there

They generally start at 8 et in Minny. National game I guess.

Tell you what, the NBA has parity lamf right now….

With Hart out and the Wolves being big, I assume Precious will start at the 4. It will be interesting to see how the lineup works. This probably helps OG a bit, as I think he never guarded Randle all that well. Brunson-Mikal-OG-Precious-KAT is a pretty big lineup, though it will help the Wolves matchup-wise as I assume Gobert will guard Precious.

Edit: Precious starts, confirmed just now.

Game thread?

Let’s go Knicks!!!

Wow Jowles is back nice

Anyone notice that Knicks pre-draft fave Cam Whitmore seems out of favor in Houston? Maybe he’d be available at a discount?

Kinda dead here considering the magnitude of the game…

cool to see the reception KAT received…he seems like a pretty nice guy…

damn KAT shoots a long three…

Precious floater?!

lol

Feels like we should be able to exploit Randle very obviously trying to make a point

Will post a thread

Precious might be more useless than Sims.

It’s up

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