[sny.tv] – Sun, 21 Jul 2024 14:39:13 GMT
- Knicks Mailbag: How does Tyler Kolek fit into the rotation?
- New York Knicks Announce Signing of Nine-Year NBA Veteran
- Knicks roster analysis: Cameron Payne signs, Precious Achiuwa lingers and more – The Athletic
- Knicks Backup Point Guard Depth Shines
- Sources: Knicks agree to 1-year deal with Payne
[Daily Knicks] – Sun, 21 Jul 2024 12:00:07 GMT
3 Knicks not named Jalen Brunson who will be crucial to team’s success
[Daily Knicks] – Sun, 21 Jul 2024 21:00:00 GMT
Knicks’ conference opponent makes claim that will shock NBA world if it comes true
[Posting and Toasting] – Mon, 22 Jul 2024 10:00:00 GMT
REPORT: Knicks’ Tom Thibodeau nearing $10-plus million extension
127 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.07.22)”
According to sources Maccabi Tel Aviv is the last team to emerge as a strong candidate in the Rokas Jokubaitis pursuit, the parts are said to be in “advanced negotiations”.
Before this update Zalgiris Kaunas was the frontrunner for Rokas, with Fenerbahce Istanbul a distant second (its backcourt is crowded).
Yeah, I’ll be shocked if he plays for us this year. Or ever.
I guess we stopped caring about Rokas (or anything else having to do with the Knicks) now. LOL
Well Clyde will be relieved at least.
Nothing much is going to happen until the Markkenen thing is settled and he does become extension eligible 8/7. Then the rest of the dominoes can fall.
Seems like the league’s Cap Police may not be idle if we throw a one year, $12mm deal at Precious. At $6mm it should be fine but anything done clearly for future trade flexibility may trigger circumvention penalties given how low his market is.
Is there a rule against signing a player for more than X% above his perceived market price? I can’t imagine the player’s union would object. Who is being harmed by that? Isn’t it managements job to try to find loopholes in any contract and try to drive an 18 wheeler through them.
Not trying to be argumentative, just curious what is being violated and who is being harmed?
I will take the under on any and all penalties assessed to us for signing Precious to an above-market deal. Teams do it all the time and I’ve never heard even grumblings about that being punishable. I would think the PA would raise hell, rightfully, about players getting paid nicely and 100% within the rules being some kind of major problem.
The Sixers just signed KJ Martin to an obvious “we’re going to trade you” deal. No whispers of potential punishment.
The CBA is too new for there to be any red lines as to what is circumvention and what is prudent management. Especially since it is becoming clear that the non-max UFAs “market price” seem to be getting squeezed by the CBA terms.
The Sixers just signed KJ Martin to an obvious “we’re going to trade you” deal. No whispers of potential punishment.
Though to be fair, they are not a model of propriety under Morey. Down 2 second rounders so far.
I still don’t understand what we are doing.
We needed a backup PG.
We have a bit of a minuites glut at SG/SF with the addition of Bridges.
Payne is not a PG. He’s more of a SG.
He may be a bargin at the price and useful if there are injuries, but if TKO is the backup PG, we are fine at that position. If he’s not the backup PG, Payne doesn’t solve that.
I’d WAY rather have Rokas than Payne on the roster.
If we need scoring off the bench due to injuries or some other reason Rokas can score. He’s also more of PG than Payne in “break the glass” situations. He’s also younger.
The only way what they are doing makes sense to “me” is if there’s a trade on the table for a backup C that hasn’t been executed yet due to bigger dominoes yet to fall. The someone is going to be used as an asset.
It makes no sense to totally blow Rokas as both a player and asset when I read that he wants to play in the NBA and thinks he’s ready. If he leaves, it’s because NY couldn’t give him Payne’s roster spot.
And again, I want to be clear. Payne is fine and on a bargin contract. He could be useful as a player or trade chip, but I prefer Rokas for what we need and long term.
I would respectfully disagree. During his 3 principal seasons with PHX (he played 6 games for them in 19-20) they won 51, 64 and 45 games where he played 88% of his minutes at the point according to BBR
Payne IS absolutely a point guard.
He has a 26.2 career AST%, which is a very point guard-y number. Has averaged 6.6 assists per 36 minutes over his career. And a very low 25.6% of his 2P baskets have been assisted baskets. He’s generally either creating his own shot, or creating shots for others.
He’s a lead guard. A point guard. He has played 7,000 not-terrible minutes in the NBA, which is something Rokas may never achieve. We’re a win-now team and I’m pretty convinced that Payne is the better player right now. He’s on the roster to hold down the fort as a backup PG until Kolek is ready.
I’m all about trying to develop young players and using the back of the roster for that purpose, but we should be pretty well covered with Brunson-Payne-Kolek at the PG position.
That’s the precise example I had in mind.
Why do you think they signed him for only $8mm when it would obviously be more beneficial to them if he were making triple that amount?
Supposedly it’s because too large a deal would be investigated for cap circumvention.
Yes: circumvention of the salary cap.
They would not. The league would.
The 29 teams competing with the Knicks who are not pulling cap shenanigans.
That historically has not worked out well for the teams who tried it.
I’m not super familiar with the Sixers’ cap situation, but some guesses:
1) Signing him to a ludicrously high contract would take them over the 2nd apron, which is not worth it
2) You’d have to try to convince an owner that it makes sense to pay KJ Martin like he’s Jalen Brunson
I mean, yeah, maybe if we gave Precious $25M AAV or something (which we can’t do), it would raise some eyebrows. No one’s gonna give a shit if we give him ~$10M though.
Yeah, strat, it’s kind of a nonsense criticism. If you want to make the point that Rokas is worth developing even in the current win-now context of the roster and asset bank, sure. But Payne was an excellent pickup on a minimum deal, and is indeed a point guard. Rokas is a developmental guard who can develop just as well overseas as he can here, without losing his rights. There is no urgency to bring him over. I don’t understand why anyone is the least bit concerned about this issue.
It is by far the safest assumption that Cam Payne will be better in 2024-2025 than Rokas. Rokas looked pretty good in the last few summer league games, but I still don’t think he’d sniff Payne’s stats from last year.
It makes all the sense in the world to choose Payne over Rokas for this season, and then see if Rokas can grow into a Payne level player down the road.
I don’t see how we’re “blowing” Rokas as an asset. It’s kind of the opposite, actually–we haven’t begun the clock on his first NBA contract yet. He’s developing on someone else’s dime while we prioritize winning. This does not seem like a problem.
I don’t care what position the team says Payne is playing or what some dopey algorithm says he is playing, he’s not a playmakign PG. Anyone can get some assists if they are assigned to bring up the ball and move it. We need someone to run the offense, penetrate, find the correct player and run the P&R. He can score and is fine as a secondary playmaker, but TKO is a PG. Payne is a tweener.
As far as Rokas goes, if he goes back to Europe again, I think we can be pretty sure he has settled on not coming back any time soon if ever.
And again, before this turn into a debate about something I am not saying, I like the Payne signing in a vaccum. It’s a good value signing and he could eventually be a good trade asset. I would just rather have Rokas on the team as that 3rd string SG/PG if it comes down to one or the other.
I’m still thinking there’s a potential trade on the table for a C and someone could be moved that will make this all make more sense to me.
I think there’s a HUGE difference between signing someone to a $12M AAV contract and a $25M AAV contract, no matter what their perceived level. Here are some players making in the area of $12M AAV on their current deals, meaning in the context of past cap numbers:
Brandon Clarke
Bobby Portis
Kelly Olynyk
Marvin Bagley
Larry Nance Jr.
Landry Shamet
Zach Collins
Precious was picked in the mid first round and has played over 5000 NBA minutes, including 20mpg in 18 playoff games. He’s not Chris Smith or something. No one in the league office would bat an eye at him getting paid anything like $12M AAV.
The point is there is a limit, which you seem to agree with. The maximum we can pay him is $12mm, and we likely have to go under that amount, even if it’s by $2mm.
While Kolek himself said the comparison was lazy, I looked up their draft agility scores and this gave me hope:
Ln ag:Sh. run:3/4 sprint:std vert:max vert
TJ Mc 10.95 : 3.09 : 3.30 : 26.0 : 31.5
Kolek 10.97 : 3.08 : 3.27 : 27.0 : 34.0
Both Kolek and McConnell tested well turning corners, neither showed blazing straight-line speed, and both were fairly poor jumpers.
Yet TJ is known as a “fast” player, but I think that’s primarily because he has a good handle and is fast with the ball and can turn on a dime.
As players, their skills differ a fair amount (hence the lazy comment), but it’s nice to see a PG with below average measurables thriving as a high-end backup, which is what we hope for Kolek.
In contrast, the significantly younger Reed Shepherd is a much better sprinter/jumper (not to mention shooter/defender) than Kolek, hence their different draft positions. But with Kolek’s high-end court vision and overall smarts/toughness/leadership/moxie, I’m hoping he’ll be able to eventually thrive against backups, though not at the near-all-star level I anticipate we’ll see from Shepherd.
So if it all works out, we’re paying our backup PG $2.2 mil annually, which is a smart move.
The point is that there is no chance any contract we give Precious gets investigated, due to the very limit you’re talking about, and I don’t really see the point in arguing about what would happen in a fake world where we could and did give him $25M.
…so, how exactly did he stumble into a 26.2 AST% across 7,000+ career minutes? Just tossing the ball around and getting lucky? You do realize that statistically speaking it is unlikely either Kolek or Rokas would achieve that this year, yes?
Unless Rokas Jokubaitis isn’t big on the whole money thing, I highly, highly doubt this.
One last thing on this issue. The very fact that according to reports they are considering making TKO the backup PG over Payne to start the season, tells us something. I like what I’ve seen from TKO, but he’s totally unproven at the NBA level. What it’s telling you is that they know what they want and need at that position and they think TKO is more of it.
Nothing is more predictable than a terrible Strat take against all evidence to the contrary, that evidence being brought up (thank you JK and Bob for saving me research), and then Strat doubling down on his terrible take because Strat. Very current political climate.
“I would just rather have Rokas on the team as that 3rd string SG/PG if it comes down to one or the other.”
I truly don’t get why you would rather have Rokas on this current roster in a win-now situation than Cam Payne on a minimum deal. It makes no sense whatsoever. One is definitely a productive NBA player. The other is a middling summer league player who has been outplayed by scrubs like Quenton Jackson and Theo Madelon. It’s shocking that you would take anything of substance away from summer league….other than even down there he had a 3.8/3.0 AST/TOV ratio.
“As far as Rokas goes, if he goes back to Europe again, I think we can be pretty sure he has settled on not coming back any time soon if ever.”
Not sure why we can be “pretty sure” of that. You are just making an utterly unfounded assumption.
And yes, Cam Payne the Point Guard was also a good signing at $3 mil, since he has terrific point guard skills and is, you know, a proven point guard.
It is actually much better than that. Payne’s ast% was actually 29.8% over his 3500 minutes in PHX.
I do think the 14/15th seat would be better occupied by Rokas rather than the usual suspects for two reasons: he seems to have some offensive abilities which might be useful and secondly I believe whatever he has will be better developed here rather than in Tel Aviv or Lithuania. Not a hill to die on, though.
IMO it’s about more than assists. When he can run an offense like TKO has been in the summer league, let me know. If he does that for NY, I’ll be the first to let you know he’s a real PG, but my opinion won’t be based on assists.
He says he want to play in the NBA now and thinks he’s ready. So IMO, we should either put him on the roster if we agree or trade him now while there are teams seeing what he’s doing in summer league. He’s never going to be a top player on any team and never going to get some big contract offer to come here. He just wants the door opened now. If he leaves, I seriously doubt he’s ever coming back to play in summer league. He’s more likely to try to get a long term contract in Europe. So what are we stashing him for another 3-4 years instead of trading him as part of deal for what we need?
Strat, omg why are you just making stuff up? Fringy rookies are not given NBA contracts because of what they think or want. Whether he ever comes back to summer league or not has no bearing on his future. If he gets a long-term deal in Europe, there can still be a buyout clause and we have his rights. There is nothing suggesting how long we will stash him in Europe, and no info on whether Leon is trying to trade his rights or not.
Again, if you like his game and potential and want him brought over with one of our remaining roster spots, cool! You don’t have to wantonly make shit up to justify that perfectly rational opinion!
I am happy with Payne on the roster on a mimimum deal. That’s a very good deal and asset.
I also I think Rokas is an asset, but I think he’s potentially a better long term player.
I think we may be about to blow the Rokas asset.
That’s what’s pissing me off.
We aren’t talking about a 36 or even 15 minute player now. We are talking about players that will be riding the bench not contributing much to winning now. So I’d rather have the long term upside than short term benefit, keep Rokas, let him get better in NY and potentially be a better player than Payne.
In fact what I’d really love is for TKO to prove he can handle the backup PG role, both Rokas and Payne to be on the team and for one of them to be used in a trade eventually (not sure if Payne can be traded yet).
If TKO is not the backup PG because he’s just not ready, then maybe I’d rather have Payne, but imo Payne is not what we need at backup PG. He’ll suffice, but IMO we want a player like TKO.
I’m not making anything up. I don’t care about rights.
I’m saying IMO, if he goes back to Europe again and signs a long tern deal, he’s never coming back to summer league and I think he’s very likely to just stay in Europe and make his career there.
I wouldn’t put much stock into anything regarding who will be higher on the depth chart re: Kolek vs. Payne. I mean, last year, Grimes was assumed to be higher than DDV on the depth chart, and Grimes had two seasons of NBA action under his belt. Kolek might hit a wall in preseason.
What I think is the case is that Kolek will have every opportunity to earn rotation minutes over Payne, and there is some internal optimism that he can. But PGs notoriously take a while to adjust to the NBA, and I’d be pleasantly surprised if he actually beats out both Payne and Deuce for backup PG minutes. I’m expecting that he gets some stints in early second quarters of games vs. opposing backups to get his feet wet, and then it will be determined whether he’s ready for more.
“I’m saying IMO, if he goes back to Europe again and signs a long tern deal, he’s never coming back to summer league and I think he’s very likely to just stay in Europe and make his career there.”
If that’s the case, then he doesn’t really care all that much about playing in the NBA. But I don’t understand where the “very likely” language comes from. What evidence do you have to back up that opinion? And if you don’t, then you actually are “making stuff up.”
Other than getting a lot of assists and having an extremely low assisted basket percentage, Cam Payne is not a point guard because of some made up bullshit like “can’t run an offense.”
Got it. This is the Strat-est take that ever Strat-ed. Everybody is roasting this terrible take, this might be a good opportunity to for once in your life say “yeah maybe I was wrong about that. I didn’t know much about Cam Payne so thanks for pointing all of that out.”
“He’s developing on someone else’s dime while we prioritize winning”
“… and is fast with the ball and can turn on a dime.”
“He says he want to play in the NBA now and thinks he’s ready.”
Strat, players who say this are a dime a dozen.
You brought up 25. I don’t think we can give him 12 without getting in trouble. So my guess is we settle at around 8.
He hasn’t gone out of his way to play summer league for us in the recent past, but he did come this year. He’s also in negotiations in Europe, including in his home country.
To me, that sounds like a guy that wants to play in the NBA, but it isn’t some kind of passion. He’s also very happy playing in Europe.
He’s taking his shot at the NBA this year.
Again, if he signs a nice long term contract in Europe and settles in he’s unlikely to come back (I’ll eliminate the “very”). After this, I think it would take a signiifcantly better offer to get him to leave Europe.
How about I looked at the same stats that everyone else looked at but have also watched Payne play and believe he’s more of a combo guard than the type of PG I’d like to see running the second unit?
I also think he’s a net negative player.
Not to be insulting, but anyone can bring up Basketball Reference, look at the stats, and they’d all conclude the same thing. That doesn’t mean they are right.
There’s a difference between what TKO is doing in summer league and what Payne does even though they both get assists and are both called PGs. There’s a chance Mitch and TKO are going to love playing with other and TKO is going to make players better with his vision.
I want what TKO does as a PG more than I want what Payne does. I am less sure TKO is ready, but if the Knicks do that’s great.
“…but have also watched Payne play…Not to be insulting, but anyone can bring up Basketball Reference, look at the stats, and they’d all conclude the same thing. That doesn’t mean they are right.”
Fully agree. BBR lists him at 6’3 and age 29. I’ve watched him and he is much shorter and likely very much older.
I admittedly have never spoken to Rokas Jokubaitis about the matter, but I have a strong feeling if the Knicks ever offer him more money than a European team he will gladly come on over, whether that’s next year, or the year after, or anytime, ever.
Correct, and the difference is that Payne has done it for NBA playoff teams while Kolek had 5 good summer league games.
I like Kolek and it’d be great if he runs away with the backup PG job. I think he totally could. But objecting to signing a very capable backup PG in Payne to a one-year minimum deal is one of the weirdest hills anyone has ever died on in Knickerblogger history.
In other news, I think steak and eggs is underestimated.
I feel like it’s very properly estimated as excellent. When you cook the eggs in the same brown butter as the meat…
Brown butter?!!! I’m all about the tallow poach.
Doogie, this is as bad a take as Strat insisting that Cam Payne isn’t a point guard.
I’d much prefer that we discuss Kolek/Payne/Jokubaitis on this basketball forum.
But truly Alan (and anyone else)…….eggs suck ass. And kind of smell like ass, too. 🙂
Worst take of the thread Doogie 😉
No umbrage taken, but it is a source of objective data. Payne played a lot of back up point for 3 years of very good basketball in Phx. No one is saying he’s like Rod Strickland backing up Mark Jackson, but he is a perfectly fine stop gap back up that showed in that role he can be adequate on an NBA finals squad. He plugs a big hole for virtually no cost.
Also I don’t think Gozer was actually a Sumerian god though they get a lot of marketing for it… but if Gozer was to appear and it was me up there on the roof of one fifth avenue Gozer would likely appear as Elfrid Payton as the once and future Knick point guard. Gozer would thus be a point guard.
Not so…. think about it… they are virtually the perfect food…. complete nutrition.
Take a fertilized hen’s egg and leave it alone for 21 days and it can make an entire chicken by itself. It have all the ingredients within it!
Also cakes and noodles and egg creams and cookies. They can turn into those too.
Stop trying to make TKO happen
hmm…being back in Phx…starting to do salsa cooked into my scramble…..if I want the meat too…toss in chorizo…a few corn tortillas…que rico…
I’m not much of a breakfast eater, but steak and eggs is pretty good, though a bit heavy.
Eggs and bacon…terrific. Good bacon properly cooked is scary good.
So, is no one buying the Skapintsev hype, such as it is?
I think Skapintsev is an extremely polished, slick big who can rebound, has great footwork and can shoot reliably from 10 ft in, maybe even from the three now and again, and thus he would make a good back-up center — in 1994.
I tend to agree with others’ opinions that the lack of lateral speed (or speed in general) probably dooms him in today’s game. Wish it weren’t true, though.
I’m not saying which I think the better player now. In fact, I assumed Payne would be the backup until TKO worked his way into the job.
I’m saying they are different types of players.
IMO, TKO is a PG.
Payne is combo guard that plays PG.
I said at least 3-4 times over the last couple of days that I like the Payne signing. I think it’s a very good value contact. It may come in handy in a trade down the line. But given the choice between Payne and Rokas I prefer the latter for all the reason I’ve stated.
Last one then I have to go.
Frank played PG for the Knicks for most of his first 3 seasons. He had almost no handle early on, no ability to penetrate and dish, no ability to draw defenders when he tried, little ability to run the P&R, and not much instinct for where to dribble, where to pass, and how to run the offense. He had almost no traditional real PG skills.
Yet despite all that he was called the PG, averaged over 5 assists per 36 minutes and had a 20 AST%. That’s because he had the ball in his hands a lot and was a very willing ball mover.
Paine is obviously more of a traditional PG than a zero player like Frank. He’s a combo guard. He can handle and do other PG things. He mostly plays the point because of size and defense. There are plenty of guys like him that PLAY PG that are NOT really PGs.
He’ll be a fine stop gap off the bench if TKO is not ready, but IMO he’s not the ideal solution to our backup PG needs.
I’m not so sure what makes my major 3 points so controversial.
1. TKO is a real PG and Payne is a combo guard that plays PG.
2. If TKO is ready to be the backup PG and it comes down to one of either Rokas and Paine, I’d take Rokas. If TKO is not ready, I’m OK with Paine being the backup PG, but I’ll be lookimng forward to TKO or another real PG replacing him.
3. I think Rokas is likely to stay in Europe if we don’t do something with him this year and that bothers me because he’s an asset.
Evidence from B-R that Cam Payne is a legit NBA PG:
-% of time played a PG in career: 88%
-Career AST%: 26.2
-Career AST/TOV ratio: close to 3:1
-ASTS/36 in 4 years with PHX: 7.6
Evidence that Cam Payne is not a legit NBA PG:
-Strat has watched him.
Yup. What Z-Man said. Strat, your controversial point is that Cam’s not a point guard. That’s just inarguably wrong. The rest is fine, such as it is. But the Cam take is a bit like:
“Frank played PG for the Knicks for most of his first 3 seasons. He had almost no handle early on, no ability to penetrate and dish, no ability to draw defenders when he tried, little ability to run the P&R, and not much instinct for where to dribble, where to pass, and how to run the offense. He had almost no traditional real PG skills.”
Frank is a legitimate NBA basketball player! (Wait, who used to say that…)
To be fair to strat, I would agree that Payne is not a traditional “pass first” PG. But that is true about nearly all PGs in today’s game.
If Kolek turns into as good a “real PG” as Payne, that would be a pretty damn good outcome, actually. Payne’s career AST% is identical to Lonzo Ball’s, and his TOV% is lower than Frank Ntilikina’s even though Frank Ntilikina was incapable of even trying anything interesting with a basketball.
Gotta give this one up my guy.
For the life of me, I don’t understand why you’d rather start the clock on Rokas’ first contract, especially when you consider there’s probably a 5% chance, generously, he’s as good as Payne is right now. How do you think Payne would’ve performed in summer league?
Why does he cease to be an asset if he plays in Europe? If he’s good, teams will want to trade for his draft rights. If anything, not starting the clock on his contract makes him more of an asset.
entertaining read so far…
my take on rokas – if we can trade him today for another future second round pick, let’s do that…
Nothing, it’s just a slow day and you threw a mild piece of churn in the water to a hungry group of fish that hasn’t had a good gang up in a while.
It’s obvious when you say “real PG” you mean your platonic ideal of a selfless table setter who slings passes all over the court and only shoots when necessary. Likely 90% of the NBA’s current PGs aren’t really PGs in your opinion, and I get it.
These positional listings and AST% numbers don’t really mean anything in this context. Russell Westbrook was listed as a PG his whole career and his AST% was over 40%. But he was never a real PG in your eyes. He was a selfish primary ball handler.
That’s the cloth you think Cam Payne is cut from, and you’re probably correct. That’s way the league is now, though. To a whole generation of people under 30, Tyler Kolek isn’t really a PG because he passes too much and can’t ISO. The game changed.
I much prefer Payne to Rokas, though. Payne is a solid addition.
That Brunson character is no point guard.
— Hungry Fish
I figured Payne was signed to eat up Hartenstein’s minutes in the all-lefty lineups, but I see Kolek is left handed too, so maybe he was brought in simply because it’s an election year.
Payne plays on ball, does a lot of pick and roll, and generally is either creating his own shot as evidenced by his low assisted basket percentage, or creating shots for somebody else as evidenced by his high assist rate.
Every mention of him in media describes him as “point guard Cam Payne,” and he has played a huge percentage of his minutes at the point guard position. I honestly believe Strat got him confused with a different NBA player named Cam and just won’t admit that, so now we have to talk about this all day.
The guy is a point guard. If you want to argue that he’s not very good, fine. But he’s a point guard. Stop already.
Payne isn’t here to have better PG skills than Kolek or Rokas, he’s here to have better PG skills than Deuce. We don’t know if Rokas or Kolek will ever be NBA-level players, and certainly can’t trust them to be during their rookie years. If both rookies crap out, then we have a minimum Payne threshold at PG.
purest point guard there ever was is old terry johnson. you watch tj run spain pnr for half a possession and you instantly know that cam payne is nowhere in the arena.
That’s funny, I was going to ask him that. I wonder if Strat considers Brunson a real PG.
Regardless, Cam Payne is obviously a PG in the modern NBA. Strat just has a very strict, time-period oriented definition of PG that he is unwilling to change.
I don’t think Rokas vs Payne is really the debate. Because the answer is both. Rokas to be the 3rd String 2 behind Bridges and Deuce and Kolek and Payne to fight for back up and 3rd string behind Brunson. There is room for both.
Brunson – Payne – Kolek
Bridges – Deuce – Rokas
Anunoby – DDV – Dadiet
Randle – Hart – Bates-Diop
Mitch – Precious? – Sims
With Hukporti, McCullar Jr, and someone not yet signed Toppin?) as the two-ways. I don’t see why we need to choose between them.
I knew point guards. Point guards were friends of mine. Cam Payne, you, sir, are no point guard.
No way in hell Ironman Hart is only playing backup PF minutes this season. Also, Donte is clearly the backup SG and should get as many minutes as possible. He could even play in a lineup without Brunson and share on-ball duties with Mikal.
There really are zero minutes for Rokas this year, and probably close to zero for Kolek, who, like Sims and Bates-Diop, will be there “in case of emergency.”
That quote didn’t age particularly well vs two dunces….
Yeah, I think it’s more like
Brunson, Kolek
Bridges, Donte
OG, Hart
Randle, Hart
Robinson, Precious
With Deuce as 10th man.
When healthy and in the playoffs then we probably go down to an 8 man rotation which pushes Payne/Kolek and either Deuce or our backup 5 out of the rotation but in the regular season we should probably have a ten man rotation and injuries happen.
But none of our third stringers will play except in garbage time and filling in for injuries. Rokas and probably Kolek and Dadiet and possibly even Payne will be out of the healthy rotation and that is fine. Rokas would be a 3-4 year contract so he is a developmental signing just like Dadiet and Kolek. No need to worry about his minutes this year.
whoa…
I think Deuce will 100% play more minutes than Kolek or Payne.
I mean, penciling in DDV at the backup 3 is pretty curious. The roster depth chart is much more likely going to be:
PG: Brunson-Deuce-Kolek/Payne
SG: Mikal-DDV-Deuce/Payne
SF: OG-Hart-Mikal/KBD/Dadiet
PF: Randle-OG/Hart-Precious
C: Mitch-Precious-Sims/Huk/Dmytro
If we are healthy and make no trades, I expect Hart and DDV to play 80% of our bench minutes with spot minutes for Deuce and our backup 5.
But injuries happen and if we move Randle for a 5 then OG moves to the 4 and DDV starts which opens up a lot of bench minutes for everyone.
I saw a Randle for Gafford/PJ Washington rumor and that seems like a good trade. Washington is the backup 4, OG starts in place of Randle, DDV becomes a starter and Gafford/Mitch is a perfect center rotation. Then cut Sums and Precious is the 3rd string 5.
Z-Man you have 14 players. Why not make Rokas #15? We don’t need to keep a roster spot open. We can always cut Sims if we need to open a spot.
allow me to retort: BOO!!!
I count 15:
Brunson
Randle
OG
Mikal
Mitch
Hart
DDV
Deuce
Precious
Payne
Kolek
Dadiet
KBD
Sims
Huk
And McCullar is still out there.
As to Sims, I think Thibs values him way more than you do, i.e. he is not a placeholder of a roster spot the way that Archie or Jeffries were. This is especially true with Mitch being the health risk that he is. Sims is a perfectly cromulent 3rd string pure C. Even if you count Huk as non-roster, it is likely that they will sign either a vet’s minimum or TPMLE guy….most likely a forward or C. They have plenty of guards.
I would not make that trade in 1000 years, Gafford is fine, but Mitchesque (ineffective outside of 3 feet and collapses spacing) and Washington flat out is a below averager NBA player.
He is on a 2 way…. destined for the G league sans multiple injuries.
Huk is a two way and most likely McCullar will be too so that leaves an open roster spot. I personally think that should go to Rokas if he wants it. I think he has more value and potential than Sims and if we wanted to sign another center or a vet I would rather cut Sims than pass on Rokas. Positional variety matters a lot less when talking about the 15th spot on the roster. I’d rather have an extra guard that looks like he will develop into a real NBA player than a fringe player that never will just because his position makes more sense.
Sims was destined for the G-League as a rookie…until he wasn’t.
I personally really like Gafford and think he makes a lot more sense on this roster than Randle, especially considering I don’t think extending or resigning Randle is a good idea at all. Washington is a fine bench player nothing special but more than capable to play 10-20 without looking awful. Both are much better defensively than Randle and the trade makes us a lot younger.
I’m amazed with the crazy amount of disrespect Randle still gets on this site at times.
Rokas looked like a garden-variety veteran summer league player. He played for Barcelona for 3 years and hardly developed at all. I don’t see why anyone thinks he’s on some sort of upward trajectory worth developing any more than any other 23yo garden-variety scrub that you can pick up at a moments notice. I doubt that you will ever not be able to find a player at Rokas’ ceiling for the vet’s minimum. I’d way rather develop guys with actual upside like Huk or McCullar with that roster spot than a G-League level combo guard.
And If I’m wrong about Rokas’ ceiling, then let him show something in Euroleague that makes him stand out. Let him earn a starting gig on a decent team and put up some consistent stats. If he does, then great! We have his rights!
Randle is an excellent player but I don’t want to pay $35 million for him in his 30s. If we keep him we are a second apron team if we trade him we can probably avoid it.
Plus I struggle with inconsistent effort on defense and he is very guilty of that. Brunson might be a poor defender but it’s not an effort issue so I can forgive it.
Sure, let’s trade a 2X all-NBA player in his prime for a second-rate C and a backup wing!
Without a healthy Randle playing at an all-star level, or an actual analog, you can kiss any chance of a championship in the next couple of years goodbye.
Rokas is only a year older than either Kolek or McCullar and has the same amount of NBA experience. I don’t understand why you think he is that much closer to his ceiling than either of them.
Sorry but I’m not really buying this. Strat said he preferred Rokas to Payne for the 2024-2025 season, because Rokas is “more of PG than Payne.”
If this is really about Strat only viewing, like, Brevin Knight or someone like that as a True Point Guard™, how the hell does Rokas fit the description any better than Payne?
Payne has averaged 6.6 AST/36 in the National Basketball Association. Rokas has averaged 6 AST/36 in Europe.
Rokas developed about as far as he could on that Barcelona team. His stats were consistently good and he had very established vets playing in front of him. My guess is if given a bigger role he will thrive. There is likely more there and his summer league performance was impressive especially for a non-nba vet.
Also I think if we are counting on Randle to make us a lot better we will be disappointed. He is a good player but more of a floor-raiser and our best rotation probably doesn’t feature him. Long term I don’t know if he is a huge upgrade over Hart and OG splitting those minutes.
Ben, paying Randle that kind of money won’t put us in the second apron. The years of an extension are a risk but the AAV won’t be too bad.
Are the Knicks incinerating Rokas? Stay tuned.
“Rokas is only a year older than either Kolek or McCullar and has the same amount of NBA experience. I don’t understand why you think he is that much closer to his ceiling than either of them.”
It’s for the same reason that many here thought RJ was closer to his ceiling at age 22 than a draftee. Rokas has played in a high-level professional league for 3 years and has not developed much at all.
“Rokas developed about as far as he could on that Barcelona team. His stats were consistently good and he had very established vets playing in front of him. My guess is if given a bigger role he will thrive.”
Then let him look for a team where he doesn’t have very established vets playing in front of him, and when he thrives, offer him a roster spot. It’s really that simple, isn’t it?
“…his summer league performance was impressive especially for a non-nba vet.”
Not really. But if other teams felt that he was indeed impressive, then as long as he stays in Europe, his rights should have more trade value than if he comes over and plays garbage time minutes here, right?
Rokas has probably continued to develop and he was much better in summer league than he was 3 years ago and better in these last international games. His development was likely hidden by his role on Barcelona. He might not continue to develop but there is no reason to think he is done getting better.
Playing in Europe is much closer to college than the NBA and there is no reason to think a 23 year old player coming out of Europe will necessarily be closer to their ceiling than a 23 year old college player.
If we are interested in Rokas he will develop better and faster on an NBA team than going back to Europe. I think it is pretty much now or never for him as a young NBA prospect.
“Playing in Europe is much closer to college than the NBA”
This is simply not true.
“His development was likely hidden by his role on Barcelona.”
This is conjecture. There is nothing to back this up that would warrant any likelihood that this was the case.
“he will develop better and faster on an NBA team than going back to Europe.”
This is not necessarily true either.
None of those things are necessarily true but I do know there are lots of 22 and 23 year old European prospects that are drafted and improve just as much as 22 and 23 year old college prospects and I do know that the NBA is the best league in the world and has the best developmental systems and coaches.
Where Rokas’s potential lies is a question mark just like Hukporti, who also has multiple years of international experience, or Kolek or any other 22-23 year old non-NBA player.
He might not ever develop into a legit NBA rotation player but the best way to find out is to sign him and it’s a better option than keeping someone who for sure won’t be like Sims or all of the back of our bench last year or simply signing no one.
I think we might just disagree on his potential and that is fine. I saw enough in summer league and his very good international play to think he is a solid end of the bench developmental signing.
Randle for Gafford/PJ Washington + 2 first round picks and we have something interesting
Randle’s value is going to surprise you all
I think the trade rumor was Gafford/Washington/Hardy and 2 2nds for Randle. I personally like it but I understand why people wouldn’t. We lose talent but gain fit and depth.
There is a fairly large pro-Randle contingent on this board. The media and the rest of the country are sleeping on him but I don’t think we are.
That Mavs trade would require about three unprotected firsts to balance out the talent disparity.
Not even, he’s only 4 months older
Gafford beat Randle in EPM last season but Randle has a much better score by DARKO. Of course Gafford playing on WAS the last few years likely drags his DPM down.
If nothing else, selling Randle for Gafford feels like selling very low. I don’t really care about PJ Washington.
So… we should trade a guy who was 2nd team and 3rd team all NBA and an all star 3of the last 5 for 2 depth pieces (one who is below average NBA player by any metric) and the better one is a clone of MR for the pleasure of playing OG OOP against bigger folks to get josh hart and extra 10 minutes of floor time? WTF?
I don’t know of anyone here who is a Randle nut hugger. He has some flaws , but for Christ’s sake guys who can get you 22.6/9.9/4.7 are pretty bloody rare.
Worth more than a MR clone, 2 well below league average players and a pair of seconds…..
“None of those things are necessarily true but I do know there are lots of 22 and 23 year old European prospects that are drafted and improve just as much as 22 and 23 year old college prospects and I do know that the NBA is the best league in the world and has the best developmental systems and coaches.”
I went back and looked at all of the players from overseas picked in the second round and who have since played at least 1,000 minutes in the NBA, including their draft position, their age when drafted, and their age when they debuted in the NBA. There are lots of others who were drafted but never got more than a cup of coffee. I didn’t see anything that would suggest that it mattered very much where a given player was developed.
2010 Bjelica 35th, 22, 27
2011 Bojan 31st, 22, 25
2011 Bertans 42nd, 19, 24
2012 Satoransky 32nd, 19, 25
2012 Papanikolaou 48th, 22, 24
2013 Abrines 32nd, 19, 23
2013 Neto 47th, 21, 23
2013 Lauvergne 55th, 21, 23
2014 Jokic 41st, 19, 20
2014 Thanasis 51st, 21, 23
2014 Micic 52nd, 20, 30
2015 Osman 31st, 20, 22
2015 Willy HG 35th, 21, 22
2016 Zubac 32nd, 19, 19
2016 Zipser 48th 22, 22
2017 iHart 43th, 19, 20
2017 Cancar 49th, 20, 22
2018 Okobo 31st, 21, 21
2018 Bonga 39th, 19, 19
2018 Kurocs 40th, 20, 20
2019 NONE
2020 Maledon 34th, 19, 19
2020 Krejki 37th, 20, 21
But if it is a pair of firsts instead of a pair of seconds, then we fill some needs and pick up assets that can be bundled for a big mid-season move.
That said I think we should roll with the squad we got which I think is absolutely a serious championship contender.
Ware looks like he should’ve been a top 5 pick. Going to play under Spoelstra is a perfect situation for him.
Z-Man, just about every player that has come to the NBA from Europe and stuck has improved once here. In fact it is widely recognized that even European stars need to acclimate to the NBA and get better and are generally much better year 2 over year 1. Me saying that playing in the NBA makes you better than playing in lesser leagues isn’t a particularly hot take. When the competition is higher you have more opportunity to rise to it.
You can wait longer in Europe before coming over and still be productive but getting here earlier in your development can help you get productive sooner and ultimately raise your ceiling. If players developed just as well in Europe why bring over Dadiet, Sarr, Risacher, etc. None of them will be productive next year. If bringing them over had zero impact on their development timeline and ceiling why ever bring a European player over before he is ready to slide right into your rotation. It’s not logical.
If you think Rokas is very likely to be a good NBA rotation player in the next couple years, like I do, the right move is bringing him over now. If you think he might never be that then sure you wait and see if he develops more and then bring him over. I think ultimately it has to do with where you think his potential lies.
Ben, can you give me an example of a second rounder who was drafted at age 20, spent 3 years in Euroleague topping out as a mediocre backup, and then was brought over here and became a “good NBA rotation player” in a couple of years? I posted a list for you to peruse. Not a single one of those players spent considerable time in Eurpoe, didn’t improve enough to be a starter by age 23, and then came over and became a rotation player within two years because their development spiked once they got here. In fact, it is far more often the case that players DON’T develop here because they are not able to keep up with NBA-level play…but go on to be highly successful players overseas.
When you say “playing in the NBA makes you better than playing in lesser leagues isn’t a particularly hot take…when the competition is higher you have more opportunity to rise to it…,” I couldn’t disagree more. In fact, the opposite seems to be true in most cases. Playing against lesser competition, such as in the G-League (or overseas) is at least as effective of a way to build confidence, whether it is here in the G-League or somewhere overseas. There are a shitload of overseas players who got drafted in the first round who never develop at all, and wind up back in Europe. Did Frank develop? Killian Hayes? Hezonja? Could they have turned out any worse if they had spent years developing in Europe until they became stars there before coming over?
I really don’t get the optimism about Rokas. On one hand, you are saying that Euroleague is closer to college ball than the NBA. On the other hand, he couldn’t beat out the “well-below-NBA-level” PGs on his team after three years. And now, based on a summer league that made Kevin Knox II look like an all-star, you are saying that he is “very likely” to be a NBA rotation player in a couple of years?
Anyway, seems like his next stop will be with Maccabi Tel Aviv so the conversation is probably moot. As a diehard Knicks fan, I would truly love for him to live up to your expectations someday…but I’m not holding my breath.
One problem with your whole example is that Rokas isn’t even close to mediocre. He is a very good rotation player on one of the top 2-3 professional teams in the world outside of the NBA. Seniority matters a lot in Europe and most of the starters in front of him are only averaging 5-7 more minutes a game. Players like Mirocic, Hernangomez, Satoransky, Rubio, and Parker. These aren’t no name scrubs, these are players who have had at least some success in the NBA.
Two years ago Dante Exum was on Barcelona and averaged less pts, less asts, less stocks per 36 with a worse 2pt%, and an almost identical but very good 3pt% also on lowish volume. This year Exum was an important part of Dallas’s rotation.
Satoransky has played almost 9000 minutes in the NBA and was an effective and useful rotation player and if you look at his stats at Barcelona they are not any better than Rokas’s.
Rokas for his career per/36 is:
14.1 pts – 6.0 asts – 3.7 rebs
51.5% 2pt% – 41.0 3pt%
He is an effective player who won the rising star award, has been effective and consistent in his role on a very good Barcelona team and is now being pursued by a very good Tel Aviv team that wants to give him a more substantial role.
Rokas had a role at Barcelona and performed it well. Young players in Europe, unless they are generational talents like Doncic, often get stuck in support roles longer than should. It’s why he is looking to leave Barcelona.
When given a bigger role in international play in 8 games over the last year Rokas who lead Lithuania in minutes averaged per/36:
18.0 pts – 8.2 asts – 3.2 rebs
49.1% 2pt% – 55.0 3pt%
His summer league success just further confirms his readiness.
“Two years ago Dante Exum was on Barcelona and averaged less pts, less asts, less stocks per 36 with a worse 2pt%, and an almost identical but very good 3pt% also on lowish volume. This year Exum was an important part of Dallas’s rotation.”
You are actually making my point! Exum did not develop at all in the NBA in 7 seasons (injuries were a big part of that, but still), he went over to Europe, developed, became a starter for his Euro team, and came back at age 28 and played well!
“Satoransky has played almost 9000 minutes in the NBA and was an effective and useful rotation player.”
The Satoransky that Rokas played with is out of the NBA because he was diminished and no longer an NBA rotation-level player. He was drafted in 2012 and did not come over for 4 years until he was 25 years old and a starter leading his team in mpg in Europe. You are once again making the case that Rokas is better served staying overseas and developing there.
Come on, Sato was a perfectly fine player when he came back to Europe. And Rokas did not get to play PG much at Barcelona, even though it is his best position.
I agree that we should consider Payne to be ahead of Rokas for this year, but it is not clear to me that Kolek is going to be better. I feel that Kolek will be better served on the G league and get used to the size and physicality, and Rokas on the team and get used to the NBA style of play.
“If players developed just as well in Europe why bring over Dadiet, Sarr, Risacher, etc. None of them will be productive next year. If bringing them over had zero impact on their development timeline and ceiling why ever bring a European player over before he is ready to slide right into your rotation. It’s not logical.”
This is not a logical point.Teams almost never draft and stash first rounders due to various contract/cap considerations as well as different expectations. So I would agree that it would have been better to draft Kolek with #25 and Dadiet with #34, and then stash Dadiet in Europe so that he could develop on an infinite timeline. My guess is that the Knicks didn’t think Dadiet would be available in the second, otherwise they might have done that. As it stands now, Dadiet would have to agree to defer his guaranteed salary and stay in Europe. He apparently didn’t want to do that, so he signed a deal that is lower than 100% of the rookie scale deal.
Sarr, Risacher and Salaun are lottery picks, so we’re talking about a whole different level of expectation.
The Knicks are “developing” Rokas at zero cost and without a cap hold, and can do so indefinitely, to my knowledge.
I think Rokas is pretty close to as good as Exum is, and Exum played rotation minutes for Dallas last year. Rokas is ready to come over right now, that is my point. There is no reason to let him season in Europe any longer. There is no more development there that is needed. What he needs to do is get used to NBA basketball so he can develop into a rotation quality player right now.
I am not arguing that Rokas needs to be in the NBA so he can develop into an NBA player in three years I am arguing he is ready right now. He is just green and needs to acclimate to the NBA . There is no huge jump that is needed in my opinion. Give him a year on an NBA roster and I think he will be ready to play real minutes for a real NBA team. I don’t think he is some future star but I do think he is pretty close to being a useful player right now.
I already acknowledged that you don’t see him that way and that is fine but since we are pretty far off in our assessment of his skills, readiness, and potential then it makes sense that we wouldn’t agree about what the best usage of him is.
But the idea that we should banish an NBA quality player back to Europe rather than signing him or trading him because he will be even better in a couple of years makes no sense. Of course he’ll be better but if he is good enough now then he should be brought over. Better to start using him now so he can either help us win games or play well enough to become a trade asset.
If he is truly an NBA quality player then playing against NBA competition will 100% be beneficial. All your examples were of players not ready for the NBA so lesser competition was actually more beneficial but Rokas isn’t those players. He is much further along than Ntilikina or Hayes and much more ready for the NBA than they ever were.
I’m not sure who is right in this argument, but I’m sure of one thing, Rokas has been playing in tougher leagues than college ball. The article in the link describes quantifying the level of competíos in different leagues. Here are some relevant results: (A higher number is a stronger level of competition). Note that summer league wasn’t quantified.
NBA regular season — 3.26
Euro basket — 1.7
Spanish ACB — 1.52
NBA D-league — 1.21
ACC NCAA — 0.76 (other NCAA leagues are lower than this)
https://fansided.com/2015/11/06/deep-dives-measuring-level-of-competition-around-the-world/
UPDATE
Rokas officially rescinded his contract with Barcelona (https://x.com/FCBbasket/status/1815659400150786057) and then signed with Maccabi Tel Aviv (https://sports.walla.co.il/item/3679707).
It’s a 2-years contract with a team option for the 3rd year.
No details so far about buyout and NBA escape clause, but they’re standard elements in international contracts.
Looking at the current roster he’s projected as a starter, in my opinion a good news for his development (between Zalgiris and Barca he did start only 9 times in 165 EL games, even if he usually starts for Lithuania in international competitions).
Rokas officially rescinded his contract with Barcelona and then signed with Maccabi Tel Aviv
and scene. we shall call this episode “international assassin.” now back to the big bad. frank plays on saturday.
PT, I’m still shocked, my guy Vezenkov rescinded with the Raptors to go back to Olympiacos Athens.
One year with Mike Brown destroyed him 😀
May he be the next prominent Knick to lead Maccabi to the promised chip. Milk and honey and all that.
Maybe he’ll have amaré rooting for him.