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Knicks Morning News (2023.11.21)

  • New York Knicks to?ijo Toronto Raptors – siol.net – Siol.net
    [Siol.net] — Tuesday, November 21, 2023 4:57:23 AM

    New York Knicks to?ijo Toronto Raptors – siol.net  Siol.net

  • Knicks’ Quentin Grimes struggles in return to starting lineup from injury – New York Post
    [New York Post ] — Tuesday, November 21, 2023 12:19:00 AM

    Knicks’ Quentin Grimes struggles in return to starting lineup from injury  New York Post

  • Anthony Edwards, Timberwolves ease past Knicks – Reuters
    [Reuters] — Tuesday, November 21, 2023 12:17:22 AM

    Anthony Edwards, Timberwolves ease past Knicks  Reuters

  • New York Knicks vs Minnesota Timberwolves Nov 20, 2023 Game … – NBA.com
    [NBA.com] — Monday, November 20, 2023 11:30:31 PM

    New York Knicks vs Minnesota Timberwolves Nov 20, 2023 Game …  NBA.com

  • Knicks on the Court: November 20 at Timberwolves Photo Gallery – NBA.com
    [NBA.com] — Monday, November 20, 2023 11:30:03 PM

    Knicks on the Court: November 20 at Timberwolves Photo Gallery  NBA.com

  • Knicks routed by Timberwolves as struggles against quality foes continue – New York Post
    [New York Post ] — Monday, November 20, 2023 10:55:00 PM

    Knicks routed by Timberwolves as struggles against quality foes continue  New York Post Timberwolves smother Knicks 117-100, have first place to themselves in NBA Western Conference  Star TribuneTimberwolves 117, Knicks 100: “I don’t like that we have so many days off”  Posting and Toasting

  • Anthony Edwards Cooks New York Knicks with 23 Points … – Bleacher Report
    [Bleacher Report] — Monday, November 20, 2023 10:53:46 PM

    Anthony Edwards Cooks New York Knicks with 23 Points …  Bleacher Report

  • New York Knicks vs. Minnesota Timberwolves Live Score and Stats … – CBS Sports
    [CBS Sports] — Monday, November 20, 2023 10:32:41 PM

    New York Knicks vs. Minnesota Timberwolves Live Score and Stats …  CBS Sports

  • Minnesota Timberwolves vs. New York Knicks: How to watch online, live stream info, start time, TV channel – CBS Sports
    [CBS Sports] — Monday, November 20, 2023 9:50:27 PM

    Minnesota Timberwolves vs. New York Knicks: How to watch online, live stream info, start time, TV channel  CBS Sports

  • Donte DiVincenzo an explosive addition for Knicks’ second unit: ‘a … – New York Daily News
    [New York Daily News] — Monday, November 20, 2023 8:46:58 PM

    Donte DiVincenzo an explosive addition for Knicks’ second unit: ‘a …  New York Daily News

  • Timberwolves’ Jaden McDaniels: Shut down vs. Knicks – CBS Sports
    [CBS Sports] — Monday, November 20, 2023 8:29:31 PM

    Timberwolves’ Jaden McDaniels: Shut down vs. Knicks  CBS Sports

  • Knicks want over $10 million from Raptors in lawsuit as they claim Adam Silver is compromised – New York Post
    [New York Post ] — Monday, November 20, 2023 8:03:52 PM

    Knicks want over $10 million from Raptors in lawsuit as they claim Adam Silver is compromised  New York Post

  • Indiana coach Mike Woodson thanks Knicks owner James Dolan for releasing him from his contract – NJ.com
    [NJ.com] — Monday, November 20, 2023 7:48:00 PM

    Indiana coach Mike Woodson thanks Knicks owner James Dolan for releasing him from his contract  NJ.com

  • The New York Knicks said in a court filing they do not want NBA … – NBC Right Now
    [NBC Right Now] — Monday, November 20, 2023 7:24:32 PM

    The New York Knicks said in a court filing they do not want NBA …  NBC Right Now

  • Will Quentin Grimes Play vs. Minnesota Timberwolves? – New York … – Sports Illustrated
    [Sports Illustrated] — Monday, November 20, 2023 7:21:29 PM

    Will Quentin Grimes Play vs. Minnesota Timberwolves? – New York …  Sports Illustrated

  • The Wizards lose to the Knicks 120-99 at home. Poole Struggles. – ABC10.com KXTV
    [ABC10.com KXTV] — Monday, November 20, 2023 7:19:00 PM

    The Wizards lose to the Knicks 120-99 at home. Poole Struggles.  ABC10.com KXTV

  • New York Knicks And Minnesota Timberwolves Injury Reports – Sports Illustrated
    [Sports Illustrated] — Monday, November 20, 2023 7:16:56 PM

    New York Knicks And Minnesota Timberwolves Injury Reports  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks-Raptors lawsuit: New York asking for $10 million in damages, argue Adam Silver shouldn’t mediate – CBS Sports
    [CBS Sports] — Monday, November 20, 2023 6:57:40 PM

    Knicks-Raptors lawsuit: New York asking for $10 million in damages, argue Adam Silver shouldn’t mediate  CBS SportsKnicks want over $10 million from Raptors in lawsuit as they claim Adam Silver is compromised  New York Post Knicks seek $10M+ in damages from Raptors, say Silver shouldn’t arbitrate  ESPN

  • Knicks seek $10 mn from Raptors and don’t want Silver deciding … – The Daily Herald
    [The Daily Herald] — Monday, November 20, 2023 6:54:18 PM

    Knicks seek $10 mn from Raptors and don’t want Silver deciding …  The Daily Herald

  • New York Knicks’ Jalen Brunson, Donte DiVincenzo Fulfill Villanova … – Sports Illustrated
    [Sports Illustrated] — Monday, November 20, 2023 6:50:56 PM

    New York Knicks’ Jalen Brunson, Donte DiVincenzo Fulfill Villanova …  Sports Illustrated

  • Knicks’ Quentin Grimes: Cleared for Monday – CBS Sports
    [CBS Sports] — Monday, November 20, 2023 6:46:00 PM

    Knicks’ Quentin Grimes: Cleared for Monday  CBS Sports

  • Knicks’ Successful Road Trip Earns Jump in NBA Power Rankings – Sports Illustrated
    [Sports Illustrated] — Monday, November 20, 2023 6:07:44 PM

    Knicks’ Successful Road Trip Earns Jump in NBA Power Rankings  Sports Illustrated

  • Stephen A. Smith blasts ‘bullsh*t’ reports surrounding Mark Jackson – Awful Announcing
    [Awful Announcing] — Monday, November 20, 2023 6:06:53 PM

    Stephen A. Smith blasts ‘bullsh*t’ reports surrounding Mark Jackson  Awful Announcing

  • Bulls History: The time MJ almost joined forces with the Knicks – Pippen Ain’t Easy
    [Pippen Ain’t Easy] — Monday, November 20, 2023 6:01:21 PM

    Bulls History: The time MJ almost joined forces with the Knicks  Pippen Ain’t Easy

  • Knicks’ Jalen Brunson earns Eastern Conference Player of the Week honors – Yahoo Sports
    [Yahoo Sports] — Monday, November 20, 2023 5:36:38 PM

    Knicks’ Jalen Brunson earns Eastern Conference Player of the Week honors  Yahoo Sports

  • Stephen A. Smith explodes in angry Mark Jackson defense: ‘Full of s–t’ – New York Post
    [New York Post ] — Monday, November 20, 2023 5:27:00 PM

    Stephen A. Smith explodes in angry Mark Jackson defense: ‘Full of s–t’  New York Post

  • Knicks seek $10M+ in damages from Raptors, say Silver shouldn’t arbitrate – ESPN
    [ESPN] — Monday, November 20, 2023 4:54:00 PM

    Knicks seek $10M+ in damages from Raptors, say Silver shouldn’t arbitrate  ESPN

  • Knicks argue lawsuit against Raptors should stay in federal court and not be moved to NBA-run arbitration – The Athletic
    [The Athletic] — Monday, November 20, 2023 4:37:36 PM

    Knicks argue lawsuit against Raptors should stay in federal court and not be moved to NBA-run arbitration  The Athletic

  • Kings’ De’Aaron Fox, Knicks’ Jalen Brunson named NBA Players of … – NBA.com
    [NBA.com] — Monday, November 20, 2023 4:21:11 PM

    Kings’ De’Aaron Fox, Knicks’ Jalen Brunson named NBA Players of …  NBA.com

  • Are New York Knicks Using Immanuel Quickley Correctly? – Sports Illustrated
    [Sports Illustrated] — Monday, November 20, 2023 1:35:08 PM

    Are New York Knicks Using Immanuel Quickley Correctly?  Sports Illustrated

  • NBA Rumors: Latest Karl-Anthony Towns trade report is great news … – Daily Knicks
    [Daily Knicks] — Monday, November 20, 2023 1:15:00 PM

    NBA Rumors: Latest Karl-Anthony Towns trade report is great news …  Daily Knicks

  • Power Rankings, Week 5: Celtics regain control of No. 1 spot – NBA.com
    [NBA.com] — Monday, November 20, 2023 11:36:51 AM

    Power Rankings, Week 5: Celtics regain control of No. 1 spot  NBA.com

  • Hornets vs. Celtics Player Props Betting Odds – Live 5 News WCSC
    [Live 5 News WCSC] — Monday, November 20, 2023 11:14:00 AM

    Hornets vs. Celtics Player Props Betting Odds  Live 5 News WCSC

  • Anne Hathaway Does Casual Fall Elegance While Sitting Courtside at a Knicks Game – Harper’s BAZAAR
    [Harper’s BAZAAR] — Monday, November 20, 2023 11:01:00 AM

    Anne Hathaway Does Casual Fall Elegance While Sitting Courtside at a Knicks Game  Harper’s BAZAAR

  • Fournier ‘Just Trying to Help,’ Perplexed By Injury – Sports Illustrated
    [Sports Illustrated] — Monday, November 20, 2023 10:55:04 AM

    Fournier ‘Just Trying to Help,’ Perplexed By Injury  Sports Illustrated

  • Off-Court Knicks: Country Boy Mitch, DiVo, Brunson, Justin Bieber … – Posting and Toasting
    [Posting and Toasting] — Monday, November 20, 2023 9:00:00 AM

    Off-Court Knicks: Country Boy Mitch, DiVo, Brunson, Justin Bieber …  Posting and Toasting

  • 77 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.11.21)”

    Repost for new thread.

    I’m not sure the other owners will hate Dolan. It depends on how much they believe Toronto behaved badly and how outraged they are by the behavior. They don’t want spies in their organizations either.

    We have got to figure the 3rd quarter out. I don’t know what it is that makes us come out flat after the half, but something has got to change. Are we playing too hard in the first half and not having enough until we get our second wind in the 4th? Starting slow is not acceptable so I don’t want the beginning of the game to change, so maybe Thibs needs to distribute minutes a little differently in the first half? I dunno..but I’m tired of teams getting what they want in the 3rd against us.

    Did not get to watch the game but yeah, 3rd quarter has been a problem for us even in games we’ve won.

    Willing to give Grimes some slack since he was out for a few games with a hand injury, but he better step the F up soon or DDV is going to take his spot. DDV plays with so much more confidence and not really sure we lose all that much on D with him in the starting line up as opposed to Grimes.

    It might actually be what is better for Grimes anyways to go to the second unit. He’s a solid role player but I feel like he just gets lost in that starting line up. DDV brings some other elements too that I think the starting line up needs (more fast break opportunities with steals, etc.)

    Still not going to get too down from last night. 4-1 on a road trip is VERY good.

    As far as Dolan and The Raptors…I just don’t think this is going to make other teams not want to deal with The Knicks. If anything, it’s going to make teams not deal with the Raptors. I mean…they were cheating, right? Maybe other teams do similar stuff but this seems to cross a line. I think we have some bias against Dolan and pro-Masai but just because Dolan sucks doesn’t mean that he is ALWAYS wrong, ya know?

    I know we have all week to pick at the warts on this team, but the bad shooting game from three aspect is pretty resonant. Take out RJ (?) and Brunson, and you’ve got:

    Randle 1-6
    Grimes 0-6
    Hart 0-2
    Quick 1-7
    Donte 1-6

    For those scoring at home, that’s 11.1%.

    Recap:
    It was bad. Minnie was clearly the better team and looked like contenders, using their length to devastating effect against the lilliputian Knicks squad. The Knicks couldn’t buy a shot and didn’t stop the TWolves either. The Knicks will have better shooting nights, but the defense is trending down awfully fast after a strong start early in the season.

    To paraphrase myself from the game thread right around halftime(because I’m too lazy to look for a better quote, I’ll note that a couple people mentioned pretty much the same thing a little before me):

    Feels like we’re up 1 in the same way the Wizards were only down 5 against us in the 4Q

    And that turned out to be the case as we were up that 1pt for the length of the shot clock. The half ended close before they got blown out in the 2nd half.

    Brunson: A-
    Should probably be harsher on him for his defense and underwhelming 2pt shooting, but was once again stellar on offense. Went 3-6 from 3, 8-8 from the line, and finished with 6asts to 1 TO.

    Randle: F
    Almost gave him a grade boost because he grabbed 14 boards and hit 50% from 2 while getting to the line 12 times, however, he missed 4 of them for 66.7% from the line in a trend that’s getting more concerning. In other words, his ankle is generally looking better but his shot isn’t. Also, KAT cooked him all night.

    Mitch: A
    He continued his incredible rebounding and added 2 blocks and 2 steals. He “shot” 5/7 from the field, so his fg% is getting back up to where it normally is.

    Hart: D-
    Overmatched by the TWolves’s length, he collected only 2rebs and 1ast in an unusually empty boxscore for him. He did pickup 2 steals, but didn’t do enough elsewhere.

    Grimes: F
    If he were any more passive on offense the ball would slap in the face every time a teammate passed it to him. Also, he missed all the ones he did take.

    RJ: F
    The ball did slap him in the face. Continues to hit 3s, otherwise old RJ showed up for a prolonged stretch to help seal the loss. Went 1-9 inside the arc with a 1 ast to 4 TO ratio and 5 PFs.

    IQ: D-
    Didn’t shoot all that great, didn’t rebound well, didn’t get an assist. On the other hand he was the only non-C challenging opponents at the rim and I’ll give him a couple points for that. Drew a couple of fouls in the 3rd and seemed like he was getting going after a nice and-1 floater, but nothing came of it.

    Hartenstein: C-
    He played 14 minutes and didn’t do a lot. He had a nice finish on a PnR with Brunson. Feels like the first PnR I’ve seen all season that used a bounce pass instead of a lob. He probably played good defense or something.

    DiVincenzo: C
    Yet another Knick who shot poorly but finished with 5asts, including a nice lob to Mitch on the PnR. He spent some time initiating the offense, fully showing his ability to get into the paint and make a good read. He could easily be the starting SG if Grimes doesn’t pick it up in the non-shooting areas.

    Touched the Floor:
    Sims, Archie, Deuce, and Jeffries

    Are we playing too hard in the first half and not having enough until we get our second wind in the 4th?

    You’d think with our strong 2nd unit that getting tired wouldn’t be a problem, then again, Thibs isn’t exactly known for taking it easy on his starters. Maybe the hustlebunnies need to learn more from the tortoise.

    Also, maybe Grimes for Kuzma. Fixes our roster construction and upgrades our length quite a bit.

    Good recap. Not much to add. The Wolves looked huge. First time all season that Mitch hasn’t jumped off the screen. You actually had to look for him in the forest.

    Would have been an amazing win but we ran out of gas. 45 wins still very achievable.

    So after 20 games, assuming we go 3-3 over the next six, we’ll be at a 47.5 win pace, which is basically what most here expected.

    Also, maybe Grimes for Kuzma. Fixes our roster construction and upgrades our length quite a bit.

    Does it worth the loss on defense?

    So if a team doesn’t make it to the next stage at the silver cup they have 10 days off? This is screwed up.

    That Towns/Gobert combo is working a lot better than I thought so far.

    I thought Towns’s offense would suffer a little due to less spacing. I figured he’d have to shoot more 3s (which he is very good at anyway) and midrange shots instead of getting to the rim.

    I thought his defense would suffer (even more) because he’d have to guard some smaller quicker players on the perimeter more often.

    A little of that has been true, but not much. They are making it work well enough.

    Kuzma is concrete hard NO for me. He’s a low basketball IQ nitwit and plays little defense. He and Jordan Poole on the same team is a Shaqtin’ A Fool dream team.

    We played like shit against a good team on the road and got spanked. Not much more to be said, I don’t think you can draw any conclusions about our team or theirs based on that game.

    (Would love to spank them when we play them in January at MSG though!)

    I know we have all week to pick at the warts on this team, but the bad shooting game from three aspect is pretty resonant. Take out RJ (?) and Brunson, and you’ve got:

    For those scoring at home, that’s 11.1%.

    We were shooting a bit over our heads the last few games. That was probably in part because we faced a couple of poor defensive teams. Yesterday we faced a very good defensive team and it was the end of a road trip. We may have been a bit gassed.

    Didn’t catch this one, maybe it was for the best. 😛 Thanks for the recap, EB. 😉

    i’ve been hearing this a lot on this board about how these games when we lose don’t count because of the schedule or how good these teams are..

    if anything the games against the good teams count double considering playoff race implications and actually playing good against good teams being a better test of how good you are… you don’t really know how good you are against the hornets or the wizards of the world who don’t really want to be out there…. in the playoffs you play against the good teams and getting blown out by them isn’t a good look….

    the other excuse is that based on the schedule we’re so tired and that we just didn’t have it… what’s the point in being the deepest team in the league with the most expensive bench if you don’t expect them to show up on nights like this….

    it’s just another loss…. we didn’t look good.. no sense in making excuses for it…. i’m sure if it was a close game people would have stamped our finals tickets…. it works the other way too and that there are 60+ games left to figure out where we are…

    the 3pt shooting was bad but the rest of our offense was worse.. our 2pt shooting was at 42% which is really bad but what makes it worse was that it was part of the running theme of the season…. heavily contested shots near the rim… iso’s getting guarded better….

    the wolves do a good job staying on their man and getting help into the paint quickly…. nearly everyone got 3 guys in their face when stepping into the paint and that’s immensely hard to get a good shot off when that’s happening… that would normally leave some guys wide open but minny also rotated over quickly or were very happy some of our guys wide open daring them to shoot…

    that is likely to continue since basically every team is doing that to us… and given our struggles at the rim… we are even more reliant on our 3pt shooting to survive… when it’s not falling it’s immensely hard to generate offense so we’re going to need multiple guys to pull in career years from beyond the arc to keep our offense above water at this rate…. i don’t think that’s going to happen but we will have to see….

    Not sure why I thought we went 4-1.

    Because undue optimism is your brand. Don’t kick it to the curb!

    This is a hell of a tantrum:

    “Given all that has occurred lately, I have come to the conclusion that the NBA neither needs nor wants my opinion,” Dolan wrote in a July memo to Silver that he copied to the other 29 league owners.

    Dolan also informed Silver and his peers of his intentions to no longer attend Board of Governor meetings, according to the memo. While Dolan didn’t relinquish voting power for his franchise, he indicated that he would turn to Knicks general counsel Jamaal Lesane to represent the organization at the BOG meetings, the memo said. That transition has occurred, sources told ESPN.

    We didn’t struggle to score at the rim last night.

    We shot 65% in the restricted area last night and 29% from everywhere else inside the arc. If we separate it out like this we see we struggled from a volatile area of the court.

    Compare that to early in the season (through game 6) where we were shooting dead last with an atrocious 50% from the RA—a full 7% points worse than the next team. We were middle of the pack from everywhere else.

    This was not a continuation of our early season trend.

    We’ve been trending up in 2p% for a while now.

    If you split the season into the first 6 games and the last 8 games, our 2p% split looks like this: 45% to 50%. The worst non-Knicks team over the course of the whole season is shooting 50% (we’re currently at 48% over the full season). It wasn’t going to last.

    We were never going to shoot that poorly at the rim over the course of a full season.

    Our 3p% luck has had less effect than our unsustainably low 2p%.

    If we take our 2p% over the last 8 games (50%) and substitute it for our season 2p% (48%), we add 32 points to our total.

    If we take our 3p% from last year (35.4%) and replace our current 3p% from this year (37.0%), we only subtract 27 points. This may overstate our loss too, since Donte is a much better shooter than Obi.

    If we manage to tie for the worst 2p offense in the league, that will offset our 3p regression moving forward.

    Towns and Gobert – another example of how people were so quick to dismiss a pairing or team construction but patience is paying off. Will it continue to pay off? Who knows but the desire to immediately make changes to a team when things don’t work out right away is I think one of the biggest traps GM’s fall into.

    Towns was hurt a lot of last season. Brigning in Gobert was a big change and Edwards was still growing as a player. Maybe it wasn’t so much Gobert and Towns being a “bad fit” as much as it was the players around them, specifically Edwards, needing to get a little better and learn how to play with these two main pieces.

    “This is a hell of a tantrum:”

    Pretty good. Almost perfectly copies our small-town mayor, who recently was voted out because he’s an asshat, and he’s refused to come to work anymore, and when called on it whined that nobody complained when one of the commissioners took time off. Said person was dying and soon thereafter did indeed die of terminal cancer.

    i’ve been hearing this a lot on this board about how these games when we lose don’t count because of the schedule or how good these teams are..

    They count, but scheduling issues, returning from injury, and things like that help explain some of the in and out performances we see. Every team will face them. We don’t want to overreact in either direction to an especially good/bad game or two.

    I have no idea what typically goes when people change NBA teams. At some level there’s almost always some knowledge that changes hands even if there is an NDA .

    My guess is that nothing happened in Toronto that doesn’t typically happen around the NBA, everyone knows it, and everyone looks the other way. Dolan just got annoyed by it and is making a big deal about something the NBA would rather just ignore.

    Of course I could be very wrong.

    We didn’t struggle to score at the rim last night.

    that’s not the full story… we normally shoot ~60% in this area… that’s buoy’ed by all the shots from mitch and ihart and other gimmes(transition buckets/wide open layups)…. on drives we actually only shot 28%….

    but here were our %s and attempts vs other opps:

    hawks – 31.5 fga / 54%
    celtics – 23.5 / 34%
    hornets – 30.5 /62.3%
    cavs – 22.5 / 55.6%
    clippers – 27 / 63.2%
    bucks – 24 / 58%
    wolves – 23 / 65.2%
    pelicans – 23 / 65.2%
    spurs – 35 / 51.4%
    wizards – 21 / 71.4%

    it generally does not matter what you shoot at the rim as a whole team… it matters how many opportunities you generate there… and if you’re not generating that much there … you then get pushed out to worse areas of the court to shoot in…

    that is why our 2pt%s are bad… drives to the rim get cut off and contested and get pushed further and further out…. you see this effect with just about all our main usage guys… not only are their rim%s are down.. but their attempts too…. as a team it might look like the rim%s are normal even for the whole season… it’s just that mitch and ihart can’t shoot there 20 times a game… it’s the guys who are shooting the most down there that are not doing so hot as well as the fact that they are not shooting there as much….

    that’s basically our whole game… if we’re not attacking the rim as well we don’t generate good 3pt looks either.. and we rely more on pullup 3s and other really tough shots….

    We’ve been trending up in 2p% for a while now.

    this is not even true… but the only reason the overall direction is up is because we’re really really bad…. and we’re still in really really bad territory… league worse by a healthy margin… there’s no way to sugarcoat it… this is a healthy enough sample to say that maybe it may not be league worst for the whole season… but there is definitely something seriously wrong with the overall offense….

    Our 3p% luck has had less effect than our unsustainably low 2p%.

    first your math is wrong… second not being good in 2pt territory also impacts you in other areas… like your ability to get to the free throw line… we’re already down in ftr rate because of this… so it’s not just about comparing volatilities in two areas of the court… it has cascading impacts throughout the offense…

    in 2021-22.. our offense also had a league worst .497 2pt%.. and finished 22nd on the year in ortg… the 2pt% will get better… but the results won’t be at this rate… it needs to be better for anything to happen this year….

    The Towns/Gobert pairing actually looks really formidable this year. The Wolves have more than enough length and speed to paper over Towns’ defensive deficiencies, and because of his length Towns isn’t a complete zero on defense either. Offensively it works perfectly as you have Gobert ready to flush anything near the basket with Towns stretching the floor and playing well in space. Last night’s game was quite eye opening for me. The Wolves look an easy 50 win team and I expect them to leapfrog a bunch of other teams in the West.

    first your math is wrong…

    I’m certainly fallible, I’d appreciate it if you could point out the mistake so I may correct it.

    this is not even true… but the only reason the overall direction is up is because we’re really really bad….

    I’m not sure I understand this. We were at 45% through the first 6 games, we’re now meaningfully higher than that.

    It’s fine if we’re bad at shooting, we just can’t be last by a mile. Recently, we haven’t been.

    in 2021-22.. our offense also had a league worst .497 2pt%

    That’s still massively better than the 45% we had through the first 6 games and meaningfully better than our 48% over the season.

    we’re already down in ftr rate because of this… so it’s not just about comparing volatilities in two areas of the court… it has cascading impacts throughout the offense…

    Sure, but I don’t have time to incorporate every detail into the calculation. We’re also up in Orb%, which should offset FTr a bit.

    If you want to make those calculations and post the results, then please do so. Idly speculating doesn’t get us anywhere.

    league worse by a healthy margin… there’s no way to sugarcoat it… this is a healthy enough sample to say that maybe it may not be league worst for the whole season… but there is definitely something seriously wrong with the overall offense….

    Randle was seriously wrong over the first 6 games or maybe it was defensive adjustments from our opponents, I don’t know, but we’ve been much better over the last 8 games.

    Either Randle got healthy or we’ve adjusted our offense in response, so it doesn’t appear to be an ongoing issue.

    but here were our %s and attempts vs other opps:

    hawks – 31.5 fga / 54%
    celtics – 23.5 / 34%
    hornets – 30.5 /62.3%
    cavs – 22.5 / 55.6%
    clippers – 27 / 63.2%
    bucks – 24 / 58%
    wolves – 23 / 65.2%
    pelicans – 23 / 65.2%
    spurs – 35 / 51.4%
    wizards – 21 / 71.4%

    I’m not sure what you’re using this data to show. We took fewer shots and shot worse over the first 6 games. We’ve shot better and more frequently there over the last 8. If you aggregate the numbers, then yes the difference between our early struggles and recent play will be muted.

    65% last night is much higher than 50% the first 6 games. On 22 shots that’s ~8pt difference?

    Minnie’s defense has held opponents to 20 shots inside the RA this season, so we beat a league average team regardless.

    The problem is we are not enough of a threat from the 3pt line and do not consistently move the ball so good defensive teams can get away with sagging off of most of our players and clogging the paint. We can punish teams that leave us wide open but teams that can recover and at least rush our shots tend to stifle our shooting.

    IQ, Grimes, and Brunson are the only true threats from 3 that can consistently make non-wide open threes. So those are the only players other teams have to worry about and everyone else they can freely help off of and usually get back in time to prevent a wide-open shot.

    Barrett and DDV can at least aggressively take open threes when they get them and punish slow teams they are still not getting full defensive attention off the ball because both are inconsistent when teams are able to recover quickly.

    Combine this with Hart constantly passing up open threes, our centers not being threats at all from deep, and Randle’s weird need to wait until his defender gets back to him before he jab steps and takes a much more contested shot we have at least 2 players at all times that can be abandoned on the perimeter at any given point and often 3 when Hart is playing next to Randle. Even our best shooting lineups only feature at most two great shooters and one opportunistic one.

    Obi might not have been a consistent 3pt shooter but he was a willing one and it kept teams a lot more honest than whatever Hart or Randle are doing.

    We need more than 3 good (Brunson, IQ, and Grimes) and 2 opportunistic (RJ and DDV) shooters if we want our iso-centric spread offense to work. I think a more creative and ball movement-centered scheme could work with our limited shooters but that will never happen with Thib’s uncreative offensive sets. So we need to upgrade our shooting at the 4 badly. Both Randle and Hart are really letting us down right now and it cannot continue.

    A lot of the best teams in the league right now are very tall. We’re not very tall. Seems like a problem.

    We need more than 3 good (Brunson, IQ, and Grimes) and 2 opportunistic (RJ and DDV) shooters

    Donte is probably in the first group. He’s currently leading the regulars in 3pa/36 and DARKO* has him as a 37.3% shooter.

    *I’m using DARKO instead of career 3p% because it adjusts for players who have shown an increase in skill while controlling for variance, so DARKO thinks Donte has improved as a shooter rather than being a beneficiary of variance.

    Sure, but I don’t have time to incorporate every detail into the calculation. We’re also up in Orb%, which should offset FTr a bit.

    so wait you have time to go 1000 words on it but can’t spare the two minutes to look at it more holistically?

    is your goal to just argue with me or to look at things objectively?

    I’d appreciate it if you could point out the mistake so I may correct it.

    50% of 757 2pa is a difference of 14.5 shots or 29 pts… but this is a complete wrong way of looking at it… so i’m not going to belabor it…

    That’s still massively better than the 45% we had through the first 6 games and meaningfully better than our 48% over the season.

    you’re not getting it.. you cant just say if ‘we just do x over the rest of the season we will be exactly where we are’…. having a 2pt% below .500 is a recipe for a terrible offense…. we will most definitely not be #11 where we are now… it does not work like that much in the same way that we were a 55 win team after the hart trade and thus we are a 55 win team now over a full season….

    you literally cannot be as bad as we have been in that area and not be terrible on offense… it’s never happened…. we were actually worse in 2020-21 at .490 and we were again 23rd in offense… in 22 we were at .497 and 22nd… we were third last year and shot .547 in 2pt territory…. i’m gonna go out on a limb and say we have next to no shot in repeating that and it’s going to look a lot like the other Thibs years….

    and we also won at a 46 win pace that year ONLY because we had a top 5 defense… it looks like our defense is good but it remains to be seen if it’s going to be that good… because if it isn’t then we’re doomed for the play-in….

    Still can’t quite get my head around sizing up Hart and Grimes in last year’s playoffs and then making the offseason agenda “let’s just get us another one of those and call it a summer.”

    50% of 757 2pa is a difference of 14.5 shots or 29 pts… but this is a complete wrong way of looking at it…

    I rounded from .502 for the post, but 50% would still lead to a bigger difference than the 3pt regression assuming we end up where we were last year.

    you’re not getting it.. you can just say if ‘we just do x over the rest of the season we will be exactly where we are’

    You’re supposed to change your expectations when things change on the basketball court. If you acquire a new player you don’t make your prediction based on how the team performed with the previous player.

    If we swap Randle for Lebron, we don’t say “That sample with Lebron isn’t predictive, we need to look at the whole year!” No, we’re going to make our predictions based on how the team plays with Lebron in the lineup because Lebron is a better player and the team is better with him on it.

    The same thing happens when a player is hurt or healthy. Randle was clearly still adjusting from his surgery in the early going and is healthier now. All I’m doing is trying to reflect that.

    We got the 150th percentile version of Josh Hart last year and this year he’s playing like regular old Josh Hart, so it does make you question the exorbitant opportunity cost we paid for this player: a first round pick and what is something like a 5/100 contract. It’s not like he’s a bad player but that is quite a price tag for a one-way player who is allergic to shooting the ball. I’m just not getting the magical vibes from Hart this season.

    I think DDV is just a better player than Quentin Grimes, full stop, and I’d be fine with moving Grimes if we could bring in a more offensive-oriented player in his place.

    It’s possible Quentin Grimes has already peaked. I’d be valuing him as if that’s a distinct possibility. My downside risk if I’m wrong isn’t high.

    (I think I said that last summer when we were … cough … debating … all this; if I didn’t it was only for diplomacy/let’s not add another tangent purposes. I certainly thought it.)

    Josh Hart played the games he played with the Knicks like a guy who wanted to get paid, and was close enough to taste getting paid — and he’s only like the eleventy billionth guy in sports history to do that.

    Now he’s been paid.

    it does make you question the exorbitant opportunity cost we paid for this player: a first round pick and what is something like a 5/100 contract.

    Leon paid $50 for a dollar slice.

    We got the 150th percentile version of Josh Hart last year and this year he’s playing like regular old Josh Hart, so it does make you question the exorbitant opportunity cost we paid for this player

    He’s capable of playing at that higher level, though. Maybe he’ll turn it off at just the right time in the spring.

    a first round pick and what is something like a 5/100 contract.

    4/70 if you exclude 2027-28, which is a team option.

    Obi might not have been a consistent 3pt shooter but he was a willing one and it kept teams a lot more honest than whatever Hart or Randle are doing.

    ben r just call obi’s bluff and tell him tweet whatever he has on you so you can go back to being rational about most everything else

    Just from the numbers, looks like Hart is shooting substantially worse from 3 than his career-worst %, and is drawing fouls four times worse than his career average, and three times worse than his career-worst season. That’s unsustainable.

    Knicks still +4.6 with him on the floor. All he has to do is play to his career averages and do whatever difficult-to-quantify shit that he does to make him a winning player.

    Wouldn’t be worried about it.

    Knickerblogger’s First Law – after every Knicks loss, the number of subsequent posts by djphan, Reese Bobby and Hubert shall increase at least five fold

    Knickerblogger’s Second Law – after every Knicks win, the number of subsequent posts by djphan, Reese Bobby and Hubert shall be close to zero

    I feel a bit vindicated by thinking Minnesota was going to be much better than last season, people seem to have forgotten about KAT’s injury and the impact it had. I’ve seen a stat that their current starting 5 only played 75 minutes together last season. They’re also holding teams to under 40% shooting relatively frequently lately so I’m not too bothered by this loss. It would have been nice to not collapse completely in the 3rd quarter but this team is limited and we all know it for so many reasons we all have discussed ad nauseam already, not having a major superstar, lacking size in some positions, Randle and Barrett being inconsistent, etc etc.

    I really think the shooting numbers are all over the place right now and will eventually settle in a better situation. It doesn’t feel like teams have figured the players out, more that they’re just missing.

    My late-night hammer on FanDuel tonight is Markatin.

    (Ouch. I tried it. I hated it. Do you guys mind if I never type his name like that ever again? I’m literally going to lose sleep over it.)

    Josh Hart’s wife had twins last May. I wouldn’t be surprised if family duties are affecting him a bit relative to last year.

    I’m very proud of you for going outside your comfort zone, Doogie. Very brave of you.

    And no, you don’t need to do it again. Once is good.

    The rest of us? We’ll see…

    Ouch. I tried it. I hated it. Do you guys mind if I never type his name like that ever again? I’m literally going to lose sleep over it.

    LOL

    Obi Toppin now coming off the bench for Indy. Gee, who could have foreseen that?

    (Obviously it’s due to his head coach who just doesn’t get how to best utilize him…or maybe it’s the slow-paced offense that has him just standing in the corner…or that he needs to play with a PG who knows how to pass…or…..or…..)

    Quentin Grimes will come around. He’s at a career low usage and shooting a career low percentage. That will improve.

    That said, I agree that his value is taking a hit. He may just not be capable of being anything but a high-efficiency/mid-teems usage 3 and D shooting guard without elite length. In other words, his ceiling seems lower than it was when Ainge was purportedly drooling over him.

    Scott Perry just suggested that the Knicks need a longer wing with defensive versatility and then they can move RJ to SG. It almost sounded like he was saying we should target someone like OG. The one difference between what I’ve been saying and what he said is that I’d like to see RJ defend some of the quicker SGs defensively before committing to moving him there. But if you put OG at SF (he’d be an excellent backup PF also) and shift RJ to SG, you suddenly have a much bigger starting lineup that can still go small if need be by putting OG at PF and RJ back at SF.

    I think Grimes is having multiple problems this year.

    1. As 4th option he’s simply not going to get the ball a lot.

    2. He seems to lack the experience/confidence to get aggressive when he does get the ball.

    3. His handle still needs a lot of work. He can’t create much off the dribble.

    4. Now he’s coming back from the hand injury.

    I think he’ll be fine, but if he doesn’t improve his handle and ability to shoot off the dribble, his upside may be limited to 3&D.

    Obi Toppin now coming off the bench for Indy. Gee, who could have foreseen that?

    Aaron Nesmith has been shooting really well. He’s undersized at PF, but that team is trying to break land speed records with their style. Poor Obi may need another team. Now he’s being blocked by Nesmith.

    157-152. That’s a freakin’ all-star game score. I know the late ’90s was ugly, but is this any prettier?

    I’m all for free flowing, offensive basketball but yeah some of these games and teams trying to play defense is middle school level embarrassing.

    As much as I get frustrated at times with the current Knicks level of defensive intensity I have a much greater appreciation for their team defense and philosophy compared to most of the rest of the league.

    “Just saw obi’s presser….he dedicated his performance to z man…”

    Z-man tips his cap…excellent game for the energy guy off the bench!

    Watched a bit of the Orlando game. Jalen Suggs feels like he’s a minor twist and a small turn away from making a big leap. Like with Mobley, the defensive presence is already there. Didn’t realize his motor was that high. Orlando could be really good soon.

    “Watched a bit of the Orlando game. Jalen Suggs feels like he’s a minor twist and a small turn away from making a big leap. Like with Mobley, the defensive presence is already there. Didn’t realize his motor was that high. Orlando could be really good soon.”

    Yeah, I noticed that too…

    Orlando has a bottom 5 offense largely due to being God awful from 3pt range. They’re winning so far this season with defense but they’ll eventually settle in to the back end of the play in tourney I assume.

    Atlanta and Toronto are the teams that continue to underachieve big time. Cavs last 2 games without Mitchell and Lavert defeated the Nuggets and 76ers, I guess splitting that back to back with them wasn’t that bad an outcome after all.

    Yeah, I thought Suggs would have easily been a good pro. He’s very confounding.

    I don’t think I’d ever seen him play before. He must have been injured for the (few) Magic games I bothered watching last year. He looked surprisingly good tonight, for somebody I never hear about and basically forgot existed. Completely dominated the quarter I watched, in fact. He seems to have the floor of a Josh Hart and the ceiling of an… I don’t even know… maybe a Sidney Moncrief?

    Fascinating tid bit about this dumb tournament I did not know:

    If you fail to qualify for the knockout phase you get two (likely) easier games on your schedule.

    Typically, the NBA sends out a full 82-game schedule in mid-August. This year, though, the league only sent 80 games, with a gap in the schedule from Dec. 3-10. Each team’s final two regular-season games will be determined by how the in-season tournament plays out.

    The 22 teams that fail to qualify for the knockout rounds of the in-season tournament will have their final two games scheduled — one at home and one on the road — on Dec. 6 and 8 against other teams eliminated in the group stage.

    Fascinating tid bit about this dumb tournament I did not know:

    If you fail to qualify for the knockout phase you will likely get two easier games on your schedule.

    Typically, the NBA sends out a full 82-game schedule in mid-August. This year, though, the league only sent 80 games, with a gap in the schedule from Dec. 3-10. Each team’s final two regular-season games will be determined by how the in-season tournament plays out.

    The 22 teams that fail to qualify for the knockout rounds of the in-season tournament will have their final two games scheduled — one at home and one on the road — on Dec. 6 and 8 against other teams eliminated in the group stage.

    The East teams that lose in the quarterfinals and the West teams that lose in the quarterfinals will play each other on Dec. 7. The teams that lose in the semifinals in Las Vegas will have played their full allotment of 82 games, while the teams that reach the championship game will actually wind up playing 83 games — with the championship game not counting toward the regular-season standings.

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