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Knicks Morning News (2023.05.31)

  • All eyes on Florida: Miami Heat and Florida Panthers could team up … – USA TODAY
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, May 31, 2023 6:30:31 AM

    All eyes on Florida: Miami Heat and Florida Panthers could team up …  USA TODAY

  • Knicks, general manager Scott Perry expected to part ways – ClutchPoints
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, May 31, 2023 2:33:00 AM

    Knicks, general manager Scott Perry expected to part ways  ClutchPoints

  • Knicks, GM Scott Perry parting ways after 6 seasons: Reports – The Athletic
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, May 31, 2023 1:00:43 AM

    Knicks, GM Scott Perry parting ways after 6 seasons: Reports  The Athletic

  • Knicks, Scott Perry parting ways after six seasons: reports – Boston Herald
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, May 31, 2023 12:39:55 AM

    Knicks, Scott Perry parting ways after six seasons: reports  Boston Herald

  • Knicks parting ways with general manager Scott Perry – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, May 31, 2023 12:16:00 AM

    Knicks parting ways with general manager Scott Perry  New York Post Knicks won’t extend contract of GM Scott Perry, sources say – ESPN  ESPNSources: Knicks, GM Scott Perry parting ways after six seasons  Yahoo Sports

  • Knicks won’t extend contract of GM Scott Perry, sources say – ESPN – ESPN
    [news.google.com] — Wednesday, May 31, 2023 12:12:00 AM

    Knicks won’t extend contract of GM Scott Perry, sources say – ESPN  ESPN

  • 18 Days After Jimmy Butler’s Heat Eliminated the Knicks, Jalen Brunson Unfollows Josh Hart on Twitter – The Sportsrush
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:16:18 PM

    18 Days After Jimmy Butler’s Heat Eliminated the Knicks, Jalen Brunson Unfollows Josh Hart on Twitter  The Sportsrush

  • New York Liberty Weather the Seattle Storm in Breanna Stewart’s … – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:09:20 PM

    New York Liberty Weather the Seattle Storm in Breanna Stewart’s …  Sports Illustrated

  • Sources: Knicks, GM Scott Perry parting ways after six seasons – Yahoo Sports
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:06:00 PM

    Sources: Knicks, GM Scott Perry parting ways after six seasons  Yahoo Sports

  • Knicks Reportedly Parting Ways with GM Scott Perry – Bleacher Report
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:02:01 PM

    Knicks Reportedly Parting Ways with GM Scott Perry  Bleacher ReportScott Perry parting ways with Knicks after six seasons: reports  New York Daily NewsKnicks parting ways with general manager Scott Perry  New York Post

  • Jeff Van Gundy Sees Similarities in ’99 Knicks, ‘Unlikely’ Heat NBA … – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:46:14 PM

    Jeff Van Gundy Sees Similarities in ’99 Knicks, ‘Unlikely’ Heat NBA …  Sports Illustrated

  • Fans don’t seem very enthused about the Knicks retiring Carmelo Anthony’s jersey – Posting and Toasting
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:59:50 PM

    Fans don’t seem very enthused about the Knicks retiring Carmelo Anthony’s jersey  Posting and Toasting

  • NBA GM Views Nuggets Guard as Knicks’ Ideal FA Target – Heavy.com
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:29:00 PM

    NBA GM Views Nuggets Guard as Knicks’ Ideal FA Target  Heavy.com

  • Aaron Rodgers pretends to celebrate Jets’ Super Bowl win as confetti falls at Taylor Swift’s MetLife concert – Fox News
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 6:24:00 PM

    Aaron Rodgers pretends to celebrate Jets’ Super Bowl win as confetti falls at Taylor Swift’s MetLife concert  Fox News

  • Knicks enter NBA summer with a unique advantage – New York Post
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 6:04:00 PM

    Knicks enter NBA summer with a unique advantage  New York Post

  • Bob Myers leaving Warriors has Knicks fans dreaming up unlikely scenario – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 5:00:32 PM

    Bob Myers leaving Warriors has Knicks fans dreaming up unlikely scenario  Daily Knicks

  • Heat First NBA Team Since 1999 To Accomplish Insane Feat – NBA Analysis Network
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 4:12:14 PM

    Heat First NBA Team Since 1999 To Accomplish Insane Feat  NBA Analysis Network

  • Jimmy Butler told tennis star Coco Gauff Heat would reach NBA Finals – NBA.com
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 3:54:58 PM

    Jimmy Butler told tennis star Coco Gauff Heat would reach NBA Finals  NBA.com

  • NBA GM: RJ Barrett ‘Will Be a Piece’ in Major Knicks Deal – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 3:20:18 PM

    NBA GM: RJ Barrett ‘Will Be a Piece’ in Major Knicks Deal  Sports Illustrated

  • Will Liberty’s Marine Johann?s Make 2023 Debut on Tuesday vs … – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 2:40:22 PM

    Will Liberty’s Marine Johann?s Make 2023 Debut on Tuesday vs …  Sports Illustrated

  • Could the Knicks pursue Jusuf Nurkic? – Empire Sports Media
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 1:25:02 PM

    Could the Knicks pursue Jusuf Nurkic?  Empire Sports Media

  • Celtics’ Game 7 collapse leads to question mark for possible Knicks target – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:23:38 PM

    Celtics’ Game 7 collapse leads to question mark for possible Knicks target  Daily Knicks

  • Immanuel Quickley’s offseason could go many ways, but will he take a big leap with Knicks? – The Athletic
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:28:09 AM

    Immanuel Quickley’s offseason could go many ways, but will he take a big leap with Knicks?  The Athletic

  • Heat success has Boomer missing Pat Riley with Knicks: ‘We let him … – WFAN
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:27:00 AM

    Heat success has Boomer missing Pat Riley with Knicks: ‘We let him …  WFAN

  • Finals MVP Ladder: Nikola Jokic leads early pack of contenders – NBA.com
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:15:12 AM

    Finals MVP Ladder: Nikola Jokic leads early pack of contenders  NBA.com

  • Will year four be the charm for Avdija? – Bullets Forever
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:00:00 AM

    Will year four be the charm for Avdija?  Bullets Forever

  • What should the Knicks do with Julius Randle? – AMNY
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:20:23 AM

    What should the Knicks do with Julius Randle?  AMNY

  • NBA exec says New York Knicks star is guaranteed to be a part of any major summer trade – Sportsnaut
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11:53 AM

    NBA exec says New York Knicks star is guaranteed to be a part of any major summer trade  Sportsnaut

  • The esports world is starting to teeter – The Seattle Times
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:00:05 AM

    The esports world is starting to teeter  The Seattle Times

  • 3 Shooters Knicks could poach from division rivals in free agency – Daily Knicks
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:00:04 AM

    3 Shooters Knicks could poach from division rivals in free agency  Daily Knicks

  • Should the Heat-Celtics Series Grant the Knicks Peace? – Sports Illustrated
    [news.google.com] — Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:00:00 AM

    Should the Heat-Celtics Series Grant the Knicks Peace?  Sports Illustrated

  • 82 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2023.05.31)”

    Perry wasn’t fired, his contract expires at the end of the season and the two sides aren’t interested in a new deal or maybe with the FOs turmoil around the league they agreed to let him free to find a better opportunity.

    I think he did a fairly decent job in New York, it’s not a coincidence he did stay here even after Leon’s hiring and Mills’ departure, he was a respected voice (even if less influential) and the split seems amicable.

    The Post article linked above points out the last two times the Knicks had a burst of prosperity like they did this year, they screwed it up in the off season, which is scary. To quote:

    It would help if they do not behave as they did the last two times they experienced a taste of prosperity. Most egregiously was in 2013, when fresh off a 54-win season James Dolan whacked the GM, Glen Grunwald (ushering in the Steve Mills Error, which led to the Phil Jackson Abomination), somehow approved the ridiculous Andrea Bargnani acquisition and completely tore the heart out of his team.

    But even two years ago, coming off a surprising 41-31 season and a playoff bid, Leon Rose had a regrettable hiccup. Though he did acquire two useful (and increasingly important) pieces in the draft in Quentin Grimes and Deuce McBride, his big free-agent play was for Evan Fournier (a disaster from Day 1), he engineered the Kemba Walker experiment (which was an even bigger fail) and he also extended Nerlens Noel and Derrick Rose, two more disappointing transactions.

    As much as has been made of Caleb Martin, I seriously doubt he’s going to keep up a 44% from 3 & 70% from 2. Still a great find.

    Gabe Vincent & Strus haven’t been as good as people seem to think either. I will say that Vincent is impressive on that he’s only been assisted on 13% of his plays.

    For as much shit as Cronin gives Duncan Robinson, he’s played a very efficient game on 20% usage.

    A lot of the Heat success has been players stepping up from awful to mediocre, with maybe losing Herro & Oladipo having something to do with it too.

    Perry did pretty well. I’m wondering if he gets replaced by Rosas or if Brock Aller is given a bigger role. Aller seems to be doing a lot for the team right now, negotiating traded and working out contract structures.

    Ramahawk, that’s very true and I hope you are right that it won’t make a difference. But I still worry. Ex agents can make bad deals. Look at Rob Pelinka, for example.

    Also look at Leon Rose in the summer of 2021.

    He was the first GM in the history of the league* to offer a guaranteed second year to someone who just got bought out. It ultimately cost us a lottery pick in a loaded draft to undo that blunder.

    They signed Kemba to a 2 year deal because he wouldn’t be bought out otherwise. He gave up $20M as part of the buyout and wouldn’t have accepted only $8M in guaranteed money.

    As much as has been made of Caleb Martin, I seriously doubt he’s going to keep up a 44% from 3 & 70% from 2.

    I feel the same way about Josh Hart’s 52% from three and .672 eFG% as a Knick.

    Soooo…Rosas really is gonna be the GM over Perrin? At least it feels that way. Perrin should probably be the GM and Rosas the assistant GM if Rose doesn’t miraculously bring in someone like Myers or Ujiri. I don’t know how I feel about that if this is the offseason to step up a level. I feel like Perrin, Rose, and Thibs are in lockstep when it comes to philosophy. I haven’t seen anything from Rosas that indicates that he will raise the floor of the team while we wait for the right big move. He may jump the gun on a big move as the GM.

    If only Perry had done the smart and easy thing and picked Bridges over Knox.

    They signed Kemba to a 2 year deal because he wouldn’t be bought out otherwise.

    Even if this were true — and it isn’t* — it doesn’t make the decision any less stupid.

    Evan Fournier, Derrick Rose, Nerlens Noel, and Kemba Walker… dude handed out some real bad contracts that summer.

    He’s got some good contracts on the books, too, don’t get me wrong. Brunson is one of the best contracts in the NBA. Mitch is on a good deal, too.

    The point here is simply that the “agents don’t hand out bad contracts” argument is certifiably wrong.

    * Kemba accepted a buyout bc he wasn’t ready to ride the pine the rest of his career; the Thunder were never going to play him ahead of SGA and Josh Giddey, and they told him as much. This was all widely reported at the time.

    Even if this were true — and it isn’t* — it doesn’t make the decision any less stupid.

    Kemba wasn’t going to give up $11M of guaranteed money. The Knicks couldn’t pay him $17M on a 1-yr deal.

    You need to stop accusing people of making stuff up. You’ve consistently been wrong in these assertions.

    If only Perry had done the smart and easy thing and picked Bridges over Knox.

    Perry under Mills was part of as bad a period as we’ve had, but somehow he and Mills keep getting a pass for what they did with the cap space and picks they were left with.

    I don’t think there was one poster on this board that was ripping the Kemba signing at the time. The general sense as I remember was that he was worth a shot since we had a gaping hole at PG and he probably had a few decent years left

    You can’t criticize after the fact if you weren’t critical at the time.

    Even if this were true — and it isn’t* — it doesn’t make the decision any less stupid.

    It’s likely true.

    I don’t know the amount that was offered in the buyout, but that amount is part of what kind of forces what another team is going to have to pay for the player to say “yes”. He’s not going to give up that much.

    We were still in that period where higher quality free agents didn’t want to play in NY. It was a gamble that he could hold together for another couple of seasons and provide the shooting and spacing that Payton did not until they found a long term replacement at PG.

    He actually did, but he couldn’t defend a lick anymore and couldn’t hold together.

    Personally, I don’t think gambles like that are always a mistake, but this one clearly was. I say not because of how it turned out, but because it was widely known in Boston that he had a degenerative issue that would not get better. It would only get worse. I read that after the fact by looking at back articles from Boston newspapers.

    Someone didn’t do good enough due diligence or they were really desperate. If I recall, it was reported that Thibs was against it.

    Personally, I don’t think gambles like that are always a mistake, but this one clearly was. I say not because of how it turned out, but because it was widely known in Boston that he had a degenerative issue that would not get better. It would only get worse. I read that after the fact by looking at back articles from Boston newspapers.

    Someone didn’t do good enough due diligence or they were really desperate. If I recall, it was reported that Thibs was against it.

    Yup.

    Kemba and Fournier gave us exactly what they were signed for (shooting), the loss on defense was underestimated and it was a big problem.

    It’s true Thibs was against the signing of Kemba since day 1 (but not against signing Fournier, because he’s friend with his former coach and Evian had good references).

    Anyway we started the season 5-1, than “someone” has a mental breakdown, “someone else” wasn’t able to keep him accountable, our centers were injured all the time and the rest is history.

    Both redeemed themselves (in various degrees) this season.

    And Mills will never get a pass, he must burn in Hell.

    the point is that it’s kemba walker… if kemba walker starts making demands… then you move on.. that’s part of negotations… if you’re so desperate to make it happen that it starts costing you picks to unwind the mistake… then you’re a bad negotiator….

    I’m going to assume Leon has learned from his mistakes. That said, I hope Rosas isn’t promoted because he seems to lean towards the typical big-name free-agency blunders that become problems. I’d much prefer Aller and Perrin run things from behind the scenes.

    Yet, the probable outcome of this offseason probably sees us moving RJ and parts for a better fit on the wing. Even after an all-nba season, I think it will be impossible to get equal value for Randle, or at least no more than actual value. He’s probably going to play out that contract (and hey, at least it’s a good contract).

    Embiid apparently doesn’t want to play for Thibs, so I can’t see us upgrading from Mitch. That leaves this year’s black hole, which was RJ. Idk if OG is the right replacement or whoever, but a vet of his caliber would really benefit the starting lineup.

    I would include Grimes in that lineup unless we can find a clear upgrade and keep Quickley as the microwave/ball-dominant player for the 2nd unit. I guess Hart will take over as the primary 2nd unit slasher from Obi, who will likely be traded. It’s a bummer because I think Obi has starter potential, but we are pretty backed into a corner with Randle.

    And that’s pretty much the team for the next few years. If it maxes out at a few deep-ish playoff runs, I’ll be happy, and I know Dolan will be happy with that extra playoff money.

    i am pretty sure with the lonzo ball news that Lavine will be on the market… and it sounded like we were poking around but if we’re not we should be…

    he’s the one guy that if available we probably land….

    Perry was a fine placeholder GM (and I mean that positively, not top-echelon, not a moron or a shill). He was highly professional, a good guy, and he avoided catastrophic blunders. He made some very nice deals and some pretty dumb mistakes, but so do most GMs.

    He also is the last link to the pre-Leon days, and that’s a good thing too. Since taking over as POBO, Leon has done a masterful job of rebranding the team and putting the clown show that Perry was a part of into an increasingly smaller object in the rear-view mirror. He has certainly signed off on some uninspired moves, but the team has purchased a commanding marketing position grounded in sustainable “success” at a relatively cheap price and with little bearing on future flexibility. Considering that he had zero experience as a team executive when he was handed the reins, and that rebranding the franchise while avoiding a long, painful rebuild was an extremely challenging and complex undertaking under the watchful eye of a petulant, meddling owner, I am totally forgiving of the learning curve-related suboptimal moves.

    Honestly, I think Perry was kept around mainly to flatten the learning curve, and now that purpose has been fulfilled. I’m sure some team looking for professionalism, experience, and sound judgment will offer him an executive position. But I am confident that Leon, now entering his 4th offseason, has grown into the job, is here for the long haul, and knows enough to make final decisions based on his own judgment rather than on the blind trust of one underling or another.

    I love that Leon keeps his mouth shut and holds his cards close to his vest.

    Yeah, criticizing him for the Kemba deal when he wouldn’t agree to a buyout otherwise and when the other option was Payton…no. Again, not a great team-building move (though reasonably risk), but as a contract, fine in that context.

    Even if you want to say it wasn’t well-negotiated (again, disagree), a really small mistake.

    the team has purchased a commanding marketing position grounded in sustainable “success” at a relatively cheap price and with little bearing on future flexibility.

    Exactly, Z-man. I would love to make the jump to contender, and don’t know if Leon can pull it off, but not being the #lolKnicks is a freaking relief. Team is pretty root-able, too. Even Julius, who has huge flaws but clearly isn’t a bad guy per se, just emotionally immature. And I am happy to root for RJ even though I have little confidence he’ll be more than a streaky replacement-level player.

    Needless to say, I love Brunson.

    It doesn’t feel like anyone we’d all be salivating over is pushing for a trade or potentially part of a rebuilding/retooling move as of yet.

    Towns is one name, but we’ve discussed the plusses and minuses with him in the lineup and potential cost could be a problem (both what it would take to get it done and his salary).

    I keep coming back to OG. I know he’s not going to put us over the top, but he’d be one hell of an addition. I don’t think the cost would be so high that it would take us out of another bigger deal at a later date.

    If we could add a player like that I’d feel like we made a forward move (depending on who we gave up).

    We should also probably add a 3 point shooter for the bench, but I’m not sure Thibs would even play someone that was mostly just a 3 point shooter or he would have given Fournier more run. If we are insisting on 3&D, then the cost automatically goes up.

    Another backup PG would also help.

    I vaguely remember somebody named Scott Perry working for the Knicks.

    if Rose doesn’t miraculously bring in someone like Myers or Ujiri

    Now this is a thing i’d bet all my money on, there’s no way Myers or Ujiri ever work under Rose. In the remote chance they’d come to the Knicks, it’d be to replace Rose. 😛

    Yeah, I keep coming back to OG as well. I just feel like he is the one guy who is gettable that may not cost us TOO much who would help both our starting line up’s defense and 3 point shooting.

    But I think I would hold steady on RJ plus 2 protected picks. I mean, he is a really good role player but that’s all he is. A very good role player. We would be giving up some potential upside with RJ too (and a few years of youth). So I just feel like if Toronto is asking for more than a few picks, we should say no.

    Would give us 2 good 3 point shooters (Grimes and OG) and too ok 3 point shooters in the starting line up. Defense would massively improve and our ability to mix and match and run different line ups since OG can guard the 2,3 and 4 effectively. He would fix a lot of our issues.

    I really don’t see us getting Anunoby. Toronto not acting like they are going to rebuild. They are likely to keep their good players.

    It seems more clear than ever that the Knicks FO is using the Riley/Spo regime as a model, for better or worse. The X-factor seems to be Thibs.

    Since he’s not going anywhere until in the future when there’s a clear setback to the plan, I wonder if Thibs has (or can be forced to have) the humility to look at what the Heat did and to be amenable to emulating it, especially on offense and in terms of player utilization.

    The Heat run such a nice mix of inside/outside, iso/ball movement, etc. that it’s very unpredictable, and Spo is not stubborn at all, as he showed with situationally benching Love in favor of Martin.

    It seemed clear that Thibs’ inflexibility with Fournier was in contrast to the way Spo first benched, then brilliantly utilized Duncan Robinson. What did Duncan do for the Heat that Evian (who is a clutch performer on the international scene, and who can drive and create as well as shoot) couldn’t have done for us?

    I also wonder whether Grimes is capable of emulating Caleb Martin’s playoff game, not the .700+ TS% per se, but the all-around game. And whether IQ can be as playoff-tough as Gabe Vincent, given that IQ seems to have more potential overall.

    Beyond that, it would be nice to have a more offensively oriented C than the Mitch/iHart tandem, but that’s hard to do without giving up more on D and rebounding than you get back on O. Guys like Bam and Horford are a pretty rare breed and don’t come cheaply anyway. But it’s an issue.

    Even if we could trade for a guy like Jon Konchar or Jaden McDaniels, they would likely be a big upgrade over RJ.

    [whoops, posted this in the wrong thread]

    This Scott Perry news mostly has me angry all over again about the Kevin Knox pick. Even if you want to mostly blame Fizdale for that, Perry and Mills were the ones who let themselves be conned into hiring Fizdale, and then listening to his terrible basketball advice.

    Also, I was queasy enough when the team hired Rosas in a consultant role. The idea of him becoming the new GM — even if it’s something of a ceremonial title within Leon’s Team of Rivals front office structure — makes me even queasier. Can we maybe stop hiring/acquiring/promoting people with serious public blemishes in their past?

    Can we maybe stop hiring/acquiring/promoting people with serious public blemishes in their past?

    I’m with you Alan, but are you really asking one of Donald Trump’s biggest money donor to be morally aware about the people he hires in his basketball team?

    😀

    just to recap…

    mitch robinson
    rj barrett
    julius randle
    morris trade that turned into IQ
    the kp trade that turned into grimes

    yea you have the kevin knox pick which was universally panned at the time…. but if you’re willing to excuse the multiple incinerated picks for rose and the obi over hali pick for that matter… you gotta give perry his due….

    i’m not really gonna miss him much myself… but it’s weird that we got so much leon rose worship and perry is sort of this sideshow when he probably has more to do with our success than anything rose did….

    Can we maybe stop hiring/acquiring/promoting people with serious public blemishes in their past?

    Yeah, having 2 former Timberwolves Head of Basketball Operations on the payroll is pretty bad.

    But seriously, at least Rick Brunson could sneak by a smell test because of his decades long-time association with Rose as well as Thibs. But why give Rosas a second chance with the terrible history of this franchise in that area (coupled with the fact he does not scream outstanding FO talent)?

    but it’s weird that we got so much leon rose worship and perry is sort of this sideshow when he probably has more to do with our success than anything rose did….

    Agree it’s somewhat strange, djphan, but I don’t think it is that weird. For example, Perry was around for both one of the worst off-seasons ever (the rushed signings to fill cap space after Durant landed on the Nets) and one of the better off-seasons (the last one). He was the number 2 in the first, and the nominal number 2 in the second, each one with a different number 1. His influence on the good and bad moves is pretty much conjecture. My personal view (again conjecture) is that Mill’s was such an idiot that he at least mitigated the damage, and probably was more of a nuts and bolts guy with Rose and didn’t have much influence on Rose’ good or bad moves. So on balance he probably should be appreciated more, but I don’t think anyone really thought he was great or terrible.

    You need to stop accusing people of making stuff up. You’ve consistently been wrong in these assertions.

    But you are literally making things ups.

    Here…

    Kemba wasn’t going to give up $11M of guaranteed money.

    ^ you made that up.

    We can quibble about Rosas and Brunson, but whatever, I’m not a big believer in blackballing people for life. I mean, we all spend too many of our waking hours discussing, rooting for, and patronizing a team owned by one of the most despicable individuals in the sports world. If Rosas and Brunson keep their noses clean going forward, I have absolutely no issue with their hirings beyond are they competent at their respective jobs (and if Rick led to Jalen, I don’t even care about that!)

    but I don’t think anyone really thought he was great or terrible.

    probably the summation of his nba executive career right there…

    You can’t criticize after the fact if you weren’t critical at the time.

    Sure you can.

    Only people who are keeping score of their own wins and losses think like this.

    You can’t criticize after the fact if you weren’t critical at the time.

    Sure you can.

    Only people who are keeping score of their own wins and losses think like this.

    Well, within reason. Like if you were saying “oh kemba walker. That could be a good move. I hope it works out.” Then yeah, you can then walk it back and criticize the move afterwards.

    But if you were like “KEMBA WALKER? We got a 6 time all-star and an absolute BEAST at PG! RINGZ!!!” then no, you don’t get to criticize the move.

    So basically, don’t be all Stephen A. Smith about it and you’re fine to walk it back.

    Alan, you’re a critic. How do you feel about this maxim?

    Do you think you weren’t allowed to be critical of the Barry finale because you didn’t predict it would be disappointing?

    You can’t criticize after the fact if you weren’t critical at the time.

    i don’t think this is true… but there were plenty of criticisms of it… including me… except with our need to have everything be unanimous and among the various touchdown dances most of that got drowned out….

    And Swifty, do you think it was wrong to hold the Rogers Commission because no one was critical of NASA before the Challenger exploded?

    Here’s what you can’t do if you weren’t critical at the time:

    say “I told you so.”

    That’s it.

    Which gets back to what I said: only people who are keeping score of their own wins and losses think like this.

    I think the standard is “if I was GM, would I have made the Kemba Walker move?” and I think most of us said “yes”

    If Aaron Rodgers breaks down and the Jets don’t go to the Super Bowl, are we gonna criticize Jets management? GMs make moves all the time that don’t work out, it’s part of the job. The legit criticisms are when they make moves like drafting Kevin Knox, which we all knew at the time was just stupid.

    Van Gundy proposes eliminating free throws.

    Wants to speed the game up.

    Probably because he wants to spend less time talking to Mark Jackson.

    If I was GM I wouldn’t get Aaron Rogers because he’s a despicable scumbag and he’s too old.

    If the Jets win the Super Bowl I’ll still only be half wrong.

    In the aftermath the Phil Jackson tenure we were the laughingstock of the league, full stop.

    Mills didn’t do a whole lot to help, even if he could stay awake during draft workouts.

    The Perry hire coincided with players, agents, etc. finally starting to talk about us like a normal NBA team. It’s impossible to say how much that tangibly benefitted us, but it’s hard to believe it didn’t.

    His record is what it is. The Knox pick was absolutely awful and that was clear at the time. No excuses for it, just a boneheaded decision that was apparently made because of a 3-on-3 workout.

    Yet we still wound up with the 2018 draftee with the 5th highest VORP in the class! We also only had that 2nd round pick because of the Melo trade Perry pulled off under tough circumstances (i.e. Phil Jackson trying to publicly berate Melo into waiving his NTC, both hardening Melo’s resolve and revealing to the world how desperate we were to trade him in the process).

    He made some other good moves too as others have pointed out, but the Phil Jackson/Melo clean up was a legitimate turning point for the franchise.

    I think the standard is “if I was GM, would I have made the Kemba Walker move?” and I think most of us said “yes”

    OK but this is what we were talking about:

    what do you think agents do? The one thing we can be sure of is that Leon knows how to negotiate

    I presented a series of examples when Leon negotiated poorly to counter this assertion, which I trust was successfully dispelled with or without Kemba Walker.

    If anyone still disagrees, I will tag in JK47 and let him talk about Brodie Van Wagenen.

    Hubert,

    Yeah you can be critical. My point, though, is however much in favor of said move you were should self-determine how critical you are after the fact.

    So if you were posting post after post praising Leon for Kemba and not acknowledging any of the possible downsides, then, yeah, I think it’s kind of dickish to then post after the fact how bad of a move it was. At the very least, those posts should always include the sentence “Like Leon Rose, I was also in favor of this move and it turned out we were both wrong.”

    So criticize away. Just please admit if you were wrong too. And I don’t mean just you. I mean everyone!

    Hubert, you’re making up the narrative he was fine accepting an $11M cut in pay. The normal process for buyouts is that you need to pay a player what he gives up in his deal, otherwise the player won’t give up the guaranteed money.

    Just like you made up the narrative that Hart could be had for the MLE this offseason.

    Just like you made up the narrative that the previous draft was generally perceived as a strong one.

    You accuse people of making shit up just to make shit up yourself. The call is coming from inside the house.

    I can’t remember how I felt about Kemba. I think I was so down on our prospects at that point my feeling was that it literally couldn’t matter so why not…

    Unfortunately I can remember my Kemba take. I was thrilled we swiped the Celtics backcourt of him and Fournier.

    I was an idiot.

    I was wrong about Kemba. I thought it was a low-end bet (given that signing my aunt was a better bet than what we had at the point then) that had a good chance of panning out, at least a bit. It didn’t. (Well, except for that totally weird stretch of games where Thibs played him 40+ minutes a night over and over until he broke.)

    On a different topic, just how good is Rudolph the Red-nosed Serbian? This article kinda addresses the question:

    https://www.theringer.com/nba-finals/2023/5/31/23743344/nikola-jokic-like-mike-career-playoffs-statistics

    Kemba seemed like a recently decent acquisition at the time to me, but like all of us here I am a layperson. It turned out that Kemba could still do a few things, but was unplayable because his body would not allow him to even pretend to play defense. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player die on screens as badly as Kemba did as a Knick, and I’m a Knick fan so I’m kind of a connoisseur of watching players die on screens.

    You’d think a professional NBA front office would know things like “Yeah, Kemba has the lateral movement of a box turtle, probably can’t start in the NBA anymore” but alas.

    In general Leon made some mistakes in that offseason that he has hopefully learned from. He is kind of learning this gig on the fly. After this past season’s success, I’m more inclined to give him some benefit of the doubt.

    It’s hard to tell how anyone felt about Kemba Walker because the thread quickly devolved into a 450+ comment argument about the 19th pick in the 2021 draft.

    LOL of course it did.

    Remember prefering a D oriented tough pg like Schroeder or Lowry but getting Kemba easily wasn’t an ugly bet at the time
    Unfortunately teaming kemba with Fournier was too much for the rest to handle defensively
    Thibs knew it
    We found it out soon

    Three posts in the past 3 1/2 hours? What the heck is goin’ on here?!? 🙂

    It’s hard to tell how anyone felt about Kemba Walker because the thread quickly devolved into a 450+ comment argument about the 19th pick in the 2021 draft.

    That thread is embarrassing for me other than predicting the defense was going to take a huge step back, but in my defense, as I pointed out earlier, soon after that deal was made I started reading back issues of Boston papers and realized Kemba’s knee issues were way worse than we were lead to believe.

    He made some other good moves too as others have pointed out, but the Phil Jackson/Melo clean up was a legitimate turning point for the franchise.

    That was a second turning point.

    The first turning point was Phil handing Mills 20m of cap space, KP, and all our 1st round picks which Mills promptly blew.

    Compare that to Phil inheriting no cap space, missing 2 1st round picks (that made immediate tanking less attractive), Felton coming off a gun issue with a contract no one wanted, JR Smith with chronic mental health issues and a contract no one wanted, Tyson Chandler coming off a subpar injury year and asking out, and a broken down Amare. Phil made quite a few mistakes, but he was handed 7-2 offset and no chance to turn it around quickly. Mills was handed a very playable hand and immediately set us back a couple of years.

    The first turning point was Phil handing Mills 20m of cap space, KP, and all our 1st round picks which Mills promptly blew.

    Sorry, but you are not sneaking that insane narrative in here.

    Phil Jackson was brought in here to make personnel decisions, he was brought in to run the team, and he had final say on all decisions. He made shitty decisions, which you are for some reason determined to blame on Steve Mills.

    Phil Jackson was not brought in here to make some vague suggestions to Steve Mills, and for Steve Mills to make the actual decisions. That is not how it worked, that is not how it was ever intended to work, and you’re not going to pawn Phil Jackson’s failures off on somebody else. You can keep trying, but I am going to swat that shit down every single time. You could simply take the L and say “Yeah I was wrong, Phil Jackson sucked” but you just refuse to do that, and it’s embarrassing for you every single time. At this point it’s getting downright bizarre, like you have told yourself this lie enough times that you actually believe it.

    Phil’s failures were Phil’s. If he gave Steve Mills any leeway in decision making (he didn’t) then it’s STILL Phil’s fault. If you get hired to do a job, and you say “I’m gonna let this moron over here take care of it for me,” well then you can’t really blame the moron. It’s kind of on you.

    And yes, I’m aware that Mills stayed on after Phil and continued to do dumb shit. I’m not defending Steve Mills, who is a known idiot. In your original post up there, that’s what you’re talking about today, you’re talking about the transition from Phil to Steve Mills. To be fair, you’re not doing what you have done in the past, which is to explicitly pin Phil’s failures on Mills. So, just clarifying that.

    Phil’s tenure was not on an upward trajectory when he left. He handed Steve Mills garbage. It’s not surprising that Mills wasn’t able to do anything with it.

    Phil Jackson handed Steve Mills a roster in which washed Carmelo Anthony, out-of-the-NBA Joakim Noah, Courtney Lee, and Lance Thomas were taking up about 60% of the cap. I mean…wow.

    There are no words, really. You might do better production per dollar wise pulling names out of a hat.

    Obviously Phil and Mills did not blow every single move, and it is in fact a positive that neither guy blew draft picks in ill-fated starfucking binges like drunken sailors like their predecessors. But they were both incompetent in their own ways and made numerous egregious unforced errors. Phil’s social media presence and the musings of his shill Charley Rosen left a bizarre mark on this franchise, mostly in cartoon ink.

    Perry was in a whole different class…actually a competent, highly-respected executive who made lots of net-plus moves, with some clunkers mixed in, as is true with all decent but not great GMs. Clearly he was a buffer against Mills’ abject incompetence. But unless you know how much of a hand he had in each negotiation and decision, whether a trade, a free agent signing, a contract extension, a draft pick, what have you, it’s hard to evaluate him beyond that.

    But please, please please, let’s slam the door shut on Phil Jackson and Steve Mills and put like 10 deadbolts on it. They fucking sucked.

    Phil has some good deep cuts too. Like when he used two second round picks to salary dump Travis Outlaw’s $3M expiring salary, and those two picks wound up being #39 and #31.

    Phil did manage not to fuck up the accidental #4 pick he used on KP, every other pick from #2-10 pretty much sucked. Alas, there was a pre-ACL window where KP would have commanded a king’s ransom in a trade. At least we got something for him!

    Phil has some good deep cuts too. Like when he used two second round picks to salary dump Travis Outlaw’s $3M expiring salary, and those two picks wound up being #39 and #31.

    The reason he dumped Travis Outlaw’s salary is the best part. It was so he could sign Travis “The Wear Bear” Wear without James Dolan having to pay luxury tax.

    neither guy blew draft picks in ill-fated starfucking binges

    I’m trying to recall back all those years to the fuckable stars, but I don’t think we’re any. There was Kevin Love, but there was really only one player for him. Everybody else that got traded during Phil’s tenure was a B-list celeb at best. Cousins. Drajic. Nurkic. Alonzo Gee. Am I missing anyone?

    Hubertsays:
    August 4, 2021 at 10:50
    No negativity in this thread. I pushed for acquiring Kemba from Boston when he had a salary, so I absolutely love this move. This is like manna from heaven.

    Leon shouldn’t have listened to Hubert!!

    (I also thought the Kemba signing was good). To be fair to all of us, from what I remember it wasn’t initially reported as a 2 year deal

    Also we don’t really know what the medical staff was telling the FO about Kemba, and the real problem with that Knicks team was Randle turned into a pumpkin and Rose and Noel were hurt/ineffective all season.

    Was it smart to bet on Noel & Rose staying healthy? No it wasn’t. That offseason they made too many bets.

    2021 was a bad offseason, no doubt about it. In retropect, you could see that Leon was being jerked around by competing voices and was trying to keep everyone happy. Lots of well-intended things backfired, predictably and unpredictably. There was a significant cost for those blunders both during and after the season.

    Even with that cost, 2022 was much better, if only because they were outbid by the Cavs for Spida, saving them from a catastrophic and probably unrecoverable blunder. As such, it’s hard to get overly excited about how much Leon learned after 2021. But the situation going into offseason 2023 is far more favorable than it was in May 2022, so we’re sort of stabilized at a decent level right now. But this is the point where great GMs are made.

    For now, its encouraging that the ranks of Team We’ve Seen Enough seem to have thinned significantly while Team Patience has had a bunch of converts. And while swifty continues to vacation all by himself on Team We Here Island, at least some are checking out the brochure…

    So criticize away. Just please admit if you were wrong too. And I don’t mean just you. I mean everyone!

    If that’s what you would like, then sure. Hell I probably had the worst Kemba take on the whole blog… I even wanted to trade for him when he was on Boston!

    So what, though?

    Someone said “agents don’t hand out bad contracts to players”. I can still use Kemba as an example of a bad contract even if I liked the deal.

    “I’m trying to recall back all those years to the fuckable stars, but I don’t think we’re any. There was Kevin Love, but there was really only one player for him. Everybody else that got traded during Phil’s tenure was a B-list celeb at best. Cousins. Drajic. Nurkic. Alonzo Gee. Am I missing anyone?”

    I’m sure there was another future HOFer like Eddy Curry or Andrea Bargnani out there to blow a bunch of picks on….but hey, Phil did bid against absolutely no one to pounce on lit like a red giant Joakim Noah via a 4yr 72M fully guaranteed deal…

    I gotta say I love watching you guys roll around in the Jackson years like pigs in shit. It’s not even bitter anymore, really. It’s more the thrill of describing a car crash in slow motion…

    I could read it all day.

    Also we don’t really know what the medical staff was telling the FO about Kemba, and the real problem with that Knicks team was Randle turned into a pumpkin and Rose and Noel were hurt/ineffective all season.

    the problem was that the decline was apparent from the numbers…. he was in terminal decline based on his hesitance to get to the rim… we weren’t getting old kemba back no matter what.. you don’t need medical info from that… on top of the fact boston… who had the most info just up and dumped him for almost nothing….

    We have no picks, but maybe we could hire Edey as a free agent. Is there something against that in the CBA?

    I think Monty is a good fit with the Pistons. That is a lot if money. I guess you can think of it as a job insecurity payment.

    With Lonzo hurt, Chicago may want to blow it all up.

    Fournier+DRose (sign and trade as salary filler) + 5 1RP for Lavine as move one.

    Same day move two: RJ + Grimes for OG.

    Brunson/Deuce
    LaVine/IQ
    OG/Hart
    Randle/Obi
    Mitch/iHart

    Roughly same defense but improve offensive rating by a mile.

    We have no picks, but maybe we could hire Edey as a free agent. Is there something against that in the CBA?

    A player has to keep his name in the draft to become an NBA free agent, so by withdrawing Edey will be on next year’s draft and until then is ineligible to play in the NBA.

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