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2023 Playoffs Round 2 Game Thread: Why Are Even Bothering? Knicks @ Heat, Game 4

In “Shelter From the Storm,” Bob Dylan sang:

Well, the deputy walks on hard nails and the preacher rides a mount

But nothing really matters much, it’s doom alone that counts

And the one-eyed undertaker, he blows a futile horn

“Come in,” she said, “I’ll give you shelter from the storm”

As we all know, with this Knicks team, doom is, in fact, all that counts, and it is what awaits the Knicks in this series.

However, let me just point out something that you might use to take shelter in this storm. The series is only three games in, and the Knicks have won one of those three games. One win tonight and the series is tied. This is far, far from over. Going back to the 1999 NBA Playoffs, which involved the Knicks and the Heat and an unlikely #8 seed having success, the score in Game 1 was the Knicks by 20. Then the Heat won Game 2 by 10. Then the Knicks won Game 3 by 23. Then the Heat won Game 4 by 15. Then the Knicks, of course, won Game 5 (and the series) by one point.

In 1997, the Knicks won Game 4 by 13 to take a 3-1 lead, then the Heat won game 5 by 15 and, well, you know, the rest of the series was canceled for some reason and never finished.

The Suns looked like trash after two games in Denver, and now after two games in Phoenix, are tied 2-2. The Sixers looked like jokes against the Celtics in Games 2 and 3, with people calling James Harden “Ben Simmons,” and then Harden scored 42 points and made the game-winning three-pointer with 18 seconds left in overtime (after first sending the game to overtime in regulation).

The narrative of this series so far is that the Heat have just outclassed the Knicks, and that’s absolutely been true (outside of Quarter 1 in Game 1 and Quarters 3-4 in Game 2), but guess what? Who the fuck cares? It doesn’t mean anything, because the Knicks still won Game 2. A win is a win is a win is a win. So if the Knicks “only” won one quarter tonight and it happens to be the fourth quarter and they win the game, then obviously Games 1-3 weren’t dispositive at all, right?

Again, with this Knicks team, it IS doom alone that counts, so they WILL lose this series, but you can take real shelter in the knowledge that there is no reason why this series is over after just three games (now, if they get their asses kicked in Game 4, that will be a lot more dispositive). So while everything is awful and they will certainly get eliminated by the Heat, we really don’t know that for sure just yet (except that we do).

So while it is fruitless for me to say “Let’s go, Knciks!” it is also fruitless to say that Games 1-3 are the only games that matter in this series. So, well, let’s go, Knicks!

466 replies on “2023 Playoffs Round 2 Game Thread: Why Are Even Bothering? Knicks @ Heat, Game 4”

So while it is fruitless for me to say “Let’s go, Knciks!”

Well, that seals it. We’re obviously getting blown out tonight.

🎶”Man thinks, cause he rules the earth, he can do with it as he pleases. And if things don’t change soon, he will. Because man has invented his doom.”🎶

-more Bob doom lyrics

Let’s prove that last game was a learning moment for our young guys. Grimes back as starter. Let’s go.

Win or lose just bounce back from Game 3 and play a good game.

That’s the way to start the game, good job Julius!

Barrett blocked and Mitch missed a point blank layup…

Our great start continues…

I think I saw Butler lick his lips when he had RJ one-on-one.

Are we just not going to be allowed to play defense against Butler?

We should just refuse to come out the 2nd half if this reffing continues

Kevin Love beating Julius off the dribble all night is not something I want to watch.

Maybe we got the stupid out of the way early.

Nope.

Brain freeze turnover and 3 offensive boards, I don’t know what to say…

I think we have some signs of life even though it’s not the best start.

At this point just hoping to win Game 5 at MSG and force a Game 6.

Julius the only one with his head up his ass. Rest of the guys competing. Let’s go!

EDIT: This would be a very timely big OBI-game.

I think we have some signs of life even though it’s not the best start.

There are, we definitely started the game with some urgency.

That lack of hustle back there is embarrassing. Just not playing hard enough.

Why was Brunson alone against 3 Heat players?
Where are the other Knicks?

Only down by two, kind of incredible…

Only down by five, kind of…

We’re playing very good on-ball defense, and terrible off-ball defense.

C’mon. Be fair. Guys are playing much better. Turnovers are still IN-FUCKING-SANE. But only Randle seems to be lazing around.

I’m literally throwing objects at the screen and still we’re only down by 2 points… crazy (and often dumb) game so far…

Thibs got back to what worked before, and it’s working again… who would’ve thought?

We just need to cut the turnovers. That’s what’s killing us the most this series. Does Thibs never scream about this at halftime?

Insane turnovers but at least we’re hitting shots. Let’s go!

If I heard I had the worst fg percentage over a 2 year playoff span in the league, I’d try hard at the other stuff , like not letting Kevin Love, blow by me …. Just me tho

Would we be a better or worse team with Al Horford instead of Randle

This would be going OK if we didn’t have 567 fucking turnovers

We’re doomed but at least we’re playing Knicks basketball tonight

Activity is much better but these turnovers are gonna drive me insane

Would we be a better or worse team with Al Horford instead of Randle

it’s a rhetorical question, right? 😉

Edit: my fault, it isn’t a question! 😀

Would we be a better or worse team with Al Horford instead of Randle

Would Horford be an all star and bring us to the 5th seed during the regular season?

Why doesn’t iHart just stay with Lowry on that last play … no time left … that’s just being dumb

Horrible defense by both Harts to allow Lowry to score at the buzzer.

Being surprised we aren’t losing by way more is a big part of what we do here

First quarter, we punched ourselves in the mouth and came back out fighting. I guess that’s something…

Down by one Q1. I like it. Julius hit a couple of prayers. If he can do that, we have a chance. Don’t … lose … the … fucking … ball!

We took good 3s but didn’t shoot a ton which I think is a good strategy for us at this point.

Wish should be up, but that’s a very encouraging quarter

We just keep doing dumb stuff, ihart playing drop coverage with 1 sec left in the quarter

Uh oh, I just read that Thibs’ stat….

What’s that, I missed it?

What’s that, I missed it?

He’s never won a playoffs series when his team was down 2-1 (0-6 career)…

Maxsays:
May 8, 2023 at 20:05
He’s never won a playoffs series when his team was down 2-1 (0-6 career)…

I’m wondering how often he was favored in those series

I’m wondering how often he was favored in those series

Before the series start?
Against the Hawks in 2021 for instance? 🙂

The next loose ball the Knicks pick up will be their first of the series.

Did anyone just see OBi not go for the blocked shot… and just break … fucking asinine

A lot of you guys already “know” we’re going to lose, so why watch it?

We don’t miss Quick. He’s been dogshit too.

Calling the Heat the 8th seed is a bit misleading, they had the 7th best record in the East, not the 8th…
Play-in re-seeding is a bit dumb…

In a parallel universe somewhere, Obi hits those threes, anticipates the pass to Robinson and gets a steal for a dunk, and doesn’t release too early to let his man get an easy putback layup. Where is that universe?

I do like that the announcer blamed RJ’s bad pass for Obi’s missed three.

A lot of you guys already “know” we’re going to lose, so why watch it?

Why does Sisyphus roll a rock up a hill?

Just play one of Julius and Brunson for the whole game, we can’t afford to play the bench.

A lot of you guys already “know” we’re going to lose, so why watch it?

Masochism is a common trait for Knicks’ fans 😉

He’s never won a playoffs series when his team was down 2-1 (0-6 career)…

Maybe because he never changes what he’s doing to get down 2-1?

The next time they hunt Duncan Robinson on D will be the first time. Heat hunt the mismatch every play.

I don’t like commenting during games, but HOW MANY FUCKIN TIMES DOES BAM HAFTA SHUFFLE HIS FEET BEFORE THE REFS CALL A DAMN TRAVEL??!!
I’m sicka this shit! Damn near every time he puts the ball on the floor or goes to the rim! And it’s obvious too

Not being able to watch it live via league pass but only after 3 hours later?

Fuck Whoever thought of that crap

Heat bigs get away with everything short of shoving Randle to the floor

Lowry being the best PG in the series is not something I anticipated.

@KnewYourKnicks

It did the same to me, then I restart the App and now it’s okay.

We really have a special talent for being down like 4 points but the game feels like we’re down 40.

Edit: Down 10 in the blink of an eye, lol. I’m out, this isn’t worth my time. Good luck, friends.

A lot of you guys already “know” we’re going to lose, so why watch it?

I’ve watched multiple seasons when our win total was in the teens. I’ll watch a 2nd round playoff game I think we’re going to lose.

so now weak ass Kevin Love is an enforcer…need to knock him around a little…and Mitch better never ever tweet about cardio until he can make a free throw…

I think the bulk impaired his range of motion in the shoulders

well…they can’t shoot 50% from 3 pt land all night………………………..can they?

Like, honestly, what does Quentin Grimes even do? He’s played 16 minutes and has taken two shots. Grimes/J-Hart lineups are redundant and make no sense.

Which is a big reason the pace and pop the team showed for a nice stretch have now ground to a halt and the Knicks have 39 points with 3 minutes to go in the second.

Doesn’t surprise me with the negative vibes everyone here gives off. 😂

Forcing Butler to switch onto Brunson was certainly a choice

I see nothing so far to give us hope … Not one thing. Butler not playing particularly well and we are still getting killed.

Wasn’t Mitch a decent FT shooter his rookie season?

60%

He’s actually gotten worse every season which is weirdly impressive.

Clyde said it in the pregame: too much pounding the ball and not enough flow,
movement and passing. Spo has us figured out and this series is over. They are mentally beaten. Lost their mojo. And you see it.

well…they can’t shoot 50% from 3 pt land all night………………………..can they?

No but we probably can’t keep hitting 33%, either.

It’s it an horror movie? Please tell me it is an horror movie.

Don’t dunk idiot, touch the glass so he can’t block you!

These games are all like a boat race. They just get ahead and we can never make a dent in the lead.

The number of dumb shots Julius Randle can take in a game is close to infinity…

If we cut this to 5 I’m all in.

EDIT: I’m still all in just less confident.

We’re not going to survive another round of our bench being out there.

The unforced errors are the difference once again.

Okay. We’ve cleverly gotten our 10 turnovers out of the way in the first half. Now let’s fucking re-group and GO!

Outside of a couple of prayers who went in, we were served with Bad Julius at his best so far…

Meanwhile Miami’s bench, the Legion Of Scrubs, is 7-12 from the floor

We’re playing our game other than the TOs. If we clean that up we win this game.

How many dumb plays has Randle made this half…. Might almost be addition by subtraction at this rate

Well, we’re playing sloppy, crappy ball but we’re only down 8. So if we just stop playing like that we can tie this series up! Let’s go Knciks!

Very dumb … to be down only 8 with as bad as we are… the heat suck … they really do… it’s a fact… we are sucking extra… I’m not sure exactly why … we move too slow on offense for sure… and on defense… it’s depressing

It feels like we’re watching a worst-of video for the season, but it is from one game.

According to Shot Quality on Twitter Knicks should be up 54-52 so that’s something positive I guess.

On pace for 96 points, nowhere near enough in today’s NBA. Not enough pop from the 2/3 positions, yet again.

Not enough pop from the 2/3 positions, yet again.

I think Grimes is feeling it, though. Let’s get him launching threes.

EDIT: One (prolly useless) eye test thing. When the Heat move the ball around the arc, they are finding guys open. The Knicks do sometimes move the ball, but no one is ever actually open. Announcers flagged this before, but you can really see the diff.

Under normal circumstances this season, I would say this was eminently winnable. However in these playoffs, somehow even including the series we won in 5 games, an 8 point deficit feels like garbage time.

There must be something I’m missing about our lack of willingness to take it to the Heat’s weak defenders.

No it isn’t, geo. I think we all know we’d be facing the broom right now if Jimmy Butler hadn’t rolled his ankle.

Grimes should definitely be shooting more. We have 2 emotional Knicks in Hart and Randle. They can both be thrown off by small things and I actually think that’s the one place where the head coach is important and Thibs is bad at handling that.

This series would be completely different if the Knicks hit their open 3s at their regular rate. Stop acting like the gap is monstrous between the Heat and the Knicks. It’s not.

Shaq, Kenny, and Charles are unanimously “meh” on Randle.

Damning with faint praise has rarely been so faint and so damning.

There must be something I’m missing about our lack of willingness to take it to the Heat’s weak defenders.

That would require our 2X COTY to deviate from his finely tuned offensive scheme.

The way they use fouls and get fouls is really irritating. They are low grade fouling our guys all the time.

This team certainly leads the playoffs in stupid unforced errors, what the fuck.

Seems that we lack the poise for this round. That botched rebound over the backboard exemplifies it.

just talking this series bidiong…I think we have a better squad than miami…

they just have our number this post season…

we have a bunch of ‘not ready for primetime’ players…

hopefully jalen, julius, mitch, RJ, grimes, the whole team learn from this series with the heat…

this game and series though isn’t really close, and it has not a whole lot to do with basketball talent…which makes it hard to understand…

Feels like we’re attacking their weak points a bit more this half?

Knicks will hang around until late 3rd early 4th. Miami will take it to 15

Strange but true fact: Miami has one more turnover than the Knicks.

Yet more proof that the eye test can be garbage.

The Knicks are getting a lesson in playoff basketball by the Heat. Their experience is killing us.

Miami may have 1 more TO but they’re a lot less dumb

I watched that play and I kept saying why is Barrett bringing it up, why is Barrett bringing it up, why is — stolen ball, layup.

yeah, looking like an inevitable double digit loss…

team will get a bit more demoralized by miami…

hopefully less pressure for the knicks though when the series goes back to msg…they seem to perform better with lower expectations on them…

That was a questionable use of the coach’s challenge…it is a pivotal moment but still too early. And it isn’t clearly a bad call.

What in the world … even when we play good we go down by more points !!!

The usual Barrett’s minute?
You’re welcome to do it again Canadian Kid…

They just never let the Knicks go on a run. We make some buckets, they answer. Remarkable consistency from Miami

We make good plays and get further behind because of 3s … then we miss our open ones …

Cleveland gave Love away for nothing
(And he earned 1 more million between the buyout and Miami’s contract…)

We don’t get stops!!!! They sometimes miss shots… but make no mistake, we don’t get stops.

Both teams currently shooting 40% from three…

Think I Hart should sub in here. Mitch is getting destroyed

We should get Hartenstein & Hart out there instead of Mitch & RJ

A lot of annoying shit has happened but I would’ve signed up for this score at this time

How come we give up so many open 3s … from the wing after one freaking pass from top of the key… it’s an embarrassment

We’re two threes from tying it. They’re two threes from blowing it open.

it’s amazing just how comfortable and relaxed miami looks out there…

Easy, when you have the refs on your side…

In the offseason we should just sign the top 5 players in the G League in 3pt %.

We’re just constantly ten points behind them. We just don’t have the answers.

Prime example … we didn’t get a stop … strus just missed a wide open shot

Even the announcers can’t understand how we’re losing this game so badly…

They’re just constantly hitting bailout 3s it’s too much to bear

Get RJ back in and Hart out I think

In the past I’d have been tempted to turn the game back on after checking the box score and seeing us within 3 but this time I knew better. Sure enough, down 8 by the time my TV would have turned on.

Cmon guys. Some the Strus, Lowry and Martin 3’s are shots that we game planned to allow and they are hitting them at a rate far above expectations.

So what about the BS call on RJ that would’ve brought the game to 5pt? Lowry has a career in Hollywood, when he ends this one.

We have just lost a quarter where we shot 76.5%…

Yes, but we did shoot 76.5%.

Miami’s bailout threes are going to dry up.

Let’s go.

I’m not going to watch the 4th… the game isn’t doing great things for my psyche… good luck to all

Q: “What is the game plan against Julius Randle?” A: “Just stand in his way and let him beat himself.”

“Yes, but we did shoot 76.5%. Keep it up, we’ll win.”

No, we’ll somehow lose by 20…

In the past I’d have been tempted to turn the game back on after checking the box score and seeing us within 3 but this time I knew better. Sure enough, down 8 by the time my TV would have turned on.

you’d get more joy changing a shitty diaper than watching miami school us, over and over and over again…

Now’s the time to ride your horses, Thibs. No rest for Randle or Brunson. You gotta treat this game like it’s a January matinee against the Hornets.

I’m worried that’s gonna be bad. How many twisted ankles is that?

RJ has now blown two bunnies my kid could’ve made.

This was right there for the taking but we couldn’t do the basics

PS — dunno about his D, but RJ came to play tonight.

I meant of course in that parallel universe where BBA is married to Jessica Alba.

Omigod a wide open three went in. Bounced three times but it went in.

spotty execution and this is a very frustrating game but at least they are fighting

FUCK YEAH!!

Get behind me, Swifty. I’m driving the Optimism Bus.

This would not be the best win the Knicks have ever had but it would definitely be the funniest

This was right there for the taking but we couldn’t do the basics

wait, what…what game were you watching noble…

they are killing us…it doesn’t seem like we’ve put them under pressure but for maybe one or two quarters this whole series…

We’re gonna win this if we cut the stupid plays. And we’re gonna win.

We’re 0.3% better than they are from three…

It’s the Knicks who are now like Mikey in Rounders, just hangin’ around, just hangin’ around. It’s nice to see. They’ll lose, but it’s nice to see.

I’ll say this, tonight gives me hope of winning Game 5 and having a chance in Game 6.

Are you fucking serious now they call a loose ball foul and its on the Knicks?

Miami’s bailout threes are going to dry up.

I think the Heat have missed 9 or 10 straight threes since I said this.

I probably should have mentioned something about getting the rebounds, though.

Maybe Julius can foul out and Obi can save us…

Who else guessed RJ was getting blocked on that drive? Everyone?

Maybe… I don’t know… maybe… PUT OUR BEST FUCKING REBOUNDER IN THE GAME!

This is like having my chest hair pulled out one small handful at a time

ironic we’re going to lose this one because of offensive rebounds

Not a big sports cliche guy but kind of feels like this legitimately came down to who wanted it more. Pathetic.

Barrett didn’t get the assist there but I’d like to give him a trophy for passing.

So much irritating tonight. It just feels like we’ve had the refs against us the whole series.

No fucking way is that a charge.

You’re absolutely right. Strus failed to absorb the contact. In fact, he put his hands out and pushed Randle. Should have been challenged, could have been a 3 point play.

Maybe Julius can foul out and Obi can save us…

Obi with 6 minutes. Might as well have been DNP. Thibs, man. SMH.

the offensive rebounds are coming off long 3pt’ers… and that’s mostly the other guys… not mitch… and hart not being in has something to do with that…

on the brightside we might break 100 pts…

Trade Randle and Obi in the off-season for a PF who can handle one iota of pressure

We deserve to lose because this has been one of the biggest show of dumbness in the history of basketball, we did play like a bunch of headless hens all game long.

That said, the refs screwed us again and I hope our coach will say something this time.

And I hope Leon Rose is watching the same thing we’re watching and that he’ll act accordingly this summer…

I think there’s some kind of illusion out there that Miami is overachieving. I’m not buying it. They are very good.

I’m gonna harp on that stat for a second… Thibs is 0-7 in his career when his team is down 2-1 in a game 4 (which is traditionally a big coach’s adjustment game). Just another exhibit of the man’s tactical impotence.

Obi with 6 minutes. Might as well have been DNP.

Yeah, but he should’ve been a DNP

You do realize that most coaches have an awful record when their team is down 2-1 in a series.

Re Thibs’s playoff record: “We gotta play harder,” is not what your team wants to hear on repeat when they’re down 2-1 and now 3-1. They want some (strategic) help.

If you’re down 2-1 it’s usually because the other team is favored

I don’t think that’s true, Al. I’d be willing to bet there is no other coach in modern history who has had 7 cracks at it and never gotten it done once.

Randle needs to be made a third banana or shipped out. He simply cannot handle playoff pressure—he’s an empty calories regular season wins guy. And I’m ready to declare our offense exposed.

Might as well trade for Kawhi if we’re doing this hybrid thing.

There was effort tonight. I’m not done with these guys.

We should get more challenges in the playoffs

Agreed.

Trading for Kawhi would be the dumbest thing we could do.

Ship randle outta here, done. The opposite of leadership. Also question marks on thibs, makes adjustments too late

This came down to dumb TOs. It’s not a Thibs thing. If we don’t commit 5-6 dumb TOs we win this one.

Yeah, but he/Obi should’ve been a DNP

IDK. Obi sucked in his 6 minutes but for balance and for keeping Randle on the floor later, I think Toppin should have played more. Obi’s gotta play well if we are to win game five. Thibs’s hook and scowl has him doubting he’s ever played well in his life.

If you’re down 2-1 it’s usually because the other team is favored

What is the winning percentage of teams that aren’t favored in an NBA playoff game? 35%? 40%? I don’t know, but it sure as fuck ain’t 0%

I don’t think there is a coach who ever lived that would take our roster and beat the Heat the way they are playing right now.

This seemed to me a kind of normal road playoff game where the home team wins a close playoff game and maybe gets a few good calls. The problem is we were already down 2-1 because we lost the first game at home.

At least it was a lot better than game three.

Per Hollinger Thibs is one game away from losing a series in 5 with home court advantage for the 4th time (only 11 times total since 2004.)

I don’t think there is a coach who ever lived that would take our roster and beat the Heat the way they are playing right now.

Then maybe we’re losing to the eventual champions and we feel a whole lot better in a month.

Speak of the devil… Steve Kerr with a major adjustment heading into game 4 because his team is down 2-1.

Kudos to Heat and Spoelstra. They outplayed and us in all four games. It should have been a sweep. They exposed all our weaknesses and how far this Knicks team can go. Even Thibs, whom I have been a supporter of throughout, has been exposed. It is absolutely incredible what the Heat did to us. I never expected this. It is not that we are losing, but how we are losing.

It has been an overall positive 2022-23 season, and we should not annihilate everything just because Miami embarrassed us. Let’s hope off season changes will get us to a better place. Let’s hope the front office will bring in players that can handle the pressure and shine in difficult moments.

You all can complain about Thibs but Bud just got fired by Milwaukee and everyone’s genius Nick Nurse got fired from Toronto after missing the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years.

There aren’t many if any surefire NBA head coaches outside of Spo and Kerr.

I don’t think there is a coach who ever lived that would take our roster and beat the Heat the way they are playing right now.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. This is funny.

If you switched the coaches in this series the Heat would be down 3-1.

If you switched the coaches in this series the Heat would be down 3-1

Let’s be realistic. Miami has A LOT of shooters. We do NOT.

I’m worried for Thibs, all the tips he has to give to Kbloggers could ruin him! 🙂

Amazing part is Miami had a negative point differential in the regular season and got blown out at home by Atlanta in the opening play in game. This run they’re on is even more unlikely than the 1999 Knicks.

Anyway….

Everything we saw from halftime on was very encouraging.

I’m confident we can win game 5 and will throw the kitchen sink at Miami in game 6.

Good post Rough.

Didn’t feel for a minute tonight that we were ever going to win. Very not fun to watch right now. Hoping for better in game 5. Go down swinging at least.

Other than the Atlanta series, the first games I found that Thibs lost down 2-1 were Harden Rockets, Heatles, Heatles again, one where Rose got injured after game 1.

He had a near zero chance in all those series.

Good post Rough.

Didn’t feel for a minute tonight that we were ever going to win. Very not fun to watch right now. Hoping for better in game 5. Go down swinging at least.

Even the players body language, starting with Randle, was screaming ‘we are not winning’ tonight

I mean Steve Kerr has one of the 7-8 best basketball players who ever lived, we have a bunch of pretty good but banged up guys.

Hart & Hart were pretty bad tonight and that’s our whole bench-I think a bit of that is on Thibs. He should have tried to keep Fournier ready to play and given more minutes to Deuce, but its probably too late at this point.

everything we saw from halftime on was very encouraging

Getting killed on the offensive boards didn’t fill me with confidence. That’s supposed to be our strength.

It could all change in game 5! I don’t know how but I choose to live in hope!

Heat played with poise and energy. We played with energy (better than last game), but no poise.

“This seemed to me a kind of normal road playoff game where the home team wins a close playoff game and maybe gets a few good calls. The problem is we were already down 2-1 because we lost the first game at home.”

I dunno, this seemed like a game where the outcome was never really in doubt. We had two leads of 1 point, both late in the first quarter. I think we were desperate for a win and played hard, but got out-executed in pretty much every facet of the game by a more skilled, more experienced, more talented, and better coached team. They got every shot they wanted whenever they needed to, and killed us on the boards whenever the game got tight. They drew a bunch of charges by playing a zone and we are a bad 3pt shooting team and couldn’t shoot them our of their zone. They only gve up 8 offensive rebounds because it is easy to box out when you are packing the paint. They made Brunson work hard just to bring the ball up court.

Miami is like the mirror image of us, because they had all these shooters in the regular season and none of them could make a fucking shot.

the 8th seed heat are not some juggernaut…. the cavs held us to what would be a league worst ortg and that has also continued vs the heat… that’s a huge offensive problem and quite a consistent trend…

the ONLY thing that changed is the heat has not had a historically bad shooting performance… they are also missing one of their top 3 players… they are not some secret 1 seed because max strus was some hidden all star that needed an injury .. and kevin love and lowry are not some rejuvenated all stars and jimmy butler has not had anything resembling a series like he had vs the bucks… they are not shooting incredibly from deep….

the heat are beating us on cruise control… these are not particularly sweat inducing games or much of a slug fest… it’s mostly been an evisceration… and it’s because we can’t do what we want on offense… and what we want to do on offense is not that hard to defend… and two playoff teams showed why…

Obi Toppin was 24 and 6 per 36 in this game. Better than Randle, and with 6 fewer turnovers…

We shot about the same % from 3 but it’s difficult to over come them taking 11 more and hitting 4 more.

A healthy IQ might’ve won this game for us.

Let’s be realistic. Miami has A LOT of shooters. We do NOT.

This is totally and completely false. Look at the stats.

Just not even close to enough from Josh Hart and Quentin Grimes. Thibs is doing his Thibs thing and falling back on his “defense” comfort food, which oftentimes is just imaginary anyway. Quentin Grimes played 42 minutes — which is absurd on its face — and made three baskets. The starting two guard.

This was the natural and obvious worry about Thibs and it’s unfortunately manifesting itself again.

Tonight we fought, no doubt about it.

But body language, energy level and mental readiness (we were always a step too slow and did lose droves of 50-50 balls) are worrysome…

Miami’s like a well trained military unit, disciplined, strong minded and they rarely bail you out with mistakes…

E continues to blame Quentin Grimes for everything after every game for no reason.

… and again, we shot 32% from three, they shot 33%. They weren’t lights out.

Of course, they did take 11 more threes than we did. And thus made four more than we did.

But it sure felt like when they needed one to kill our rally, there it was.

Last season the Heat lead the NBA in 3pt% and were 6th in made 3pters. It was pretty stunning how poorly they shot from 3pt range this season considering they have almost an identical roster from last season with the exception is they added Kevin Love late this season.

“HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. This is funny.

If you switched the coaches in this series the Heat would be down 3-1.”

If your hate boner against Thibs wasn’t in Viagra overdose mode, you would have inferred that the way the Heat are playing right now includes being coached by one of the best coaches ever to walk an NBA sideline.

That said, you are delusional if you think a team with Jimmy Butler, Bam Adebayo, and this version Kyle Lowry would be down 1-3 if the coaches were reversed. As I said this morning, they have the three best players, and their role players 4-6 are every bit as good as ours if not better.

E continues to blame Quentin Grimes for everything after every game for no reason.

He’s been terrible in the playoffs, but my comment was mostly about Thibs.

Grimes was 3 for 7 from 3pt range and had 5 rebs tonight but sure let’s blame him.

Grimes was 3 for 7 from 3pt range and had 5 rebs tonight but sure let’s blame him.

In 42 minutes. That’s terrible production from that position.

But, again, it’s mostly Thibs’s fault for playing him that much. He obviously has no business getting anything close to that number of minutes. Thibs is falling back on his low-ceiling, “defensive-minded,” offensive zeros, comfort food yet again.

As worried about from the beginning.

But Game 5 is coming up and hopefully the narrative can change.

let’s just say it’s all your fault anyways E…save everyone time and posts…

so the real question is, how to overcome the bad vibe my fave b-ball gives me all the time…

i mean everyone was talking like grimes in the starting lineup was going to fix a lot of things…

and it didn’t… he’s not to blame… but he was never going to be the solution…. he played about as grimes-y a game as there was…

You are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.
– Bob Neptune

The Heat are shooting 30% from 3. The Knicks are shooting 27%.

And here are the top 6 for each team:

Brunson: 41%
Grimes: 39%
Quickley: 37%
Martin: 35%
Butler: 35%
Strus: 35%
Randle: 34%
Lowry: 34%
Toppin: 34%
Vincent: 33%
Robinson: 33%
Barrett: 31%

This is a slugfest. The Heat don’t have better horses. Their horses are just more confident and better prepared (much, much better prepared).

But it sure felt like when they needed one to kill our rally, there it was.

They were in control all the time, all four games. Poised, cool, composed, experienced, mentally ready, and so on. They were executing, and we were scrambling. All the time. We never pushed them to a frustration point when they could play below their level. They did this to us.

E did a big thing during the beginning of the season where he shit all over Grimes for being a no skill fake hustle player and then the season played out and showed he was completely wrong. So now he’s just lashing out.

Can you imagine how much we would have won by if Cam Reddish (who can jump high) played 42 minutes? At least 30.

But body language, energy level and mental readiness (we were always a step too slow and did lose droves of 50-50 balls) are worrysome…

I feel like we turned this around in the second half, though. Whatever funk we were in, it seemed like we snapped out of it.

Two major problems, though:

1. We had accumulated too much foul trouble in the first half.

2. Our coach wanted many games of evidence before reacting to the Heat’s offensive rebound dominance in the 2nd half by putting Josh Hart back in the game.

Our bench was 4-13 for 10 points, 6 rebounds and 1 assist. Josh Hart had more fouls than points. There are plenty of reasons why we lost, but that’s probably the biggest one.

The Heat without Tyler Herro just dispatched a team in 5 games that was the favorite to win the NBA championship going into the playoffs.

They have two bonafide 2-way max players, including one first-ballot HOFer in his prime. We have none.

This is essentially the same Heat team that took the Celts to 7 games and was a wide-open Butler 3 away from going to the finals.

To suggest that we are better than them personnel-wise is a joke.

They also happen to have the best coach in the NBA. But that is far from the only reason why they are kicking our ass. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out our personnel vulnerabilities. We are a young team devoid of true stars and playoff pedigree.

IQ was perhaps the biggest difference maker for us during the regular season. He’s not our best player, but having a guy like that off the bench was one of our biggest advantages.

Imo, him playing poorly and now being injured has been our biggest problem.

Grimes has been pretty good. For a second year player to do what he’s done – good defense, good decisions on offense – is something to be encouraged by. But keep on hating, hater. Your hot take on Grimes is up there with “Brunson is an average PG.”

If we could just have got a few offensive boards in crunch time, the game would have been closer. But we didn’t. But I’m with BBA. I feel good about game 5.

A few reminders.

The Miami Heat just took out the team with the best record in the NBA. They also went to the ECF last year and the Finals three years ago.

Also, a reminder that the difference between us as the 5th seed and them as the 8th seed was three games.

I’ve been beating the trade RJ Barrett drum for awhile but honestly, the best move Leon could make this summer would be to stand Pat. Reading Hart and IQ, pick up Obi’s qualifying offer and roll back the exact same squad. A panic trade bc of losing in the second round when no one thought we’d be here would be massively dumb.

The team took a step up when we went to 9 men and took cam, rose and Fournier out of the rotation. We took another step up with Hart. This squad full season with our rotations set from game one of the season probably wins four or five more games east and can probably be as high as the third seed. IQ, Grimes, McBride, Sims, OBI, RJ, even Mitch all still have improvement in front of him. I think the biggest adjustment needs to be thibs trusting a full 10 man rotation (or even 11 with Sims here and there) all season so that Brunson and Randle aren’t banged up.

This series probably plays out differently if those two are healthy.

Tell RJ to do nothing just shoot threes all summer.

Maybe we get lucky with the mavs pick.

Great season. Now let’s just hope the boys can win one more at home for pride and make this respectable.

I look forward to this Heat team taking Boston to 7 games so the whole “we’re getting beat by a team of scrubs” narrative can be put to rest.

But body language, energy level and mental readiness (we were always a step too slow and did lose droves of 50-50 balls)

We didn’t just lose 50-50 balls. I think there were close to 10 plays where there were 3 or more Knicks and 1 or fewer Heat that we lost as well.

Two best players on remaining playoff teams:
Sixers: Joel Embiid, James Harden
Celtics: Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown
Heat: Jimmy Butler, Bam Adebayo
Knicks: Julius Randle, Jaylen Brunson
Suns: Devin Booker, Kevin Durant
Nuggets: Nicola Jokic, Jamal Murray
Lakers: LeBron James, Anthony Davis
Warriors: Steph Curry, Klay Thompson

Walker is 100% on the money. Team management had to create and develop a roster capable of making the playoffs. This was far from a certainty. Now that we have a core that has delivered a series victory, next years planning can introduce more depth – the type of depth that can mitigate playoff injuries and fatigue. The Heat have that depth coupled with experience and great coaching.

You do realize that most coaches have an awful record when their team is down 2-1 in a series.

More facts:

Steve Kerr is 6-2 in game 4 when his team is down 2-1.

Doc Rivers s 9-1 in game 4 when his team is down 2-1.

It’s a very meaningful mark, IMO. To have failed every single time your team needed a win in the most important game of a 7 game series… I think it says a lot about his inability to adjust, his inability to prepare, and his inability to inspire his troops.

Speak of the devil… Steve Kerr with a major adjustment heading into game 4 because his team is down 2-1.

I can’t watch the second game. What was the adjustment?

Knickfan,

Kerr benched Looney and started GP2 because AD was too comfortable guarding in drop in the PnR. GP2 adds some more running to their starting unit.

Also, we’re definitely doomed now, but wouldn’t it be funny if we came back 3-1 against the heat just like they did to us in 1997

I’d love to see how Kerr and Rivers did in game 4s when their two best players were not sure-fire future HOFers….

Maybe we trade Obi and Grimes plus picks for OG…definitely feels like he would’ve made a big difference this series…

Really not sure how this team improves unless there’s an out of the blue star trade or IQ and RJ take a leap

Ask Clipper and 76ers fans what they think of Doc Rivers’ coaching in the playoffs.

Doc lost his first 2 playoff game 4s down 2-1. And if you’re comparing talent… I mean come on

Comparing Thibs to the best team of all-time & one of the best coaches of all-time seems like whatever word is stronger than disingenuous

Doc Rivers has blown 3 series with a 3-1 lead idk if that’s the guy you want to highlight for his playoff coaching acumen

Barring trades Knicks don’t have many options to upgrade the roster this summer. I’ll be perfectly fine running back this same team next season, hopefully win close to 50 games again and take another shot in the playoffs.

Summer of 2024 Knicks should have a couple of 1st rd picks, decisions to make on IQ and Obi plus possibly some cap space. That’ll be the more likely time to make serious roster changes.

He had a near zero chance in all those series.

Dude don’t sit here with a straight face and say Thibs had zero chance of ever heading into a game five tied 2-2. You’re being obtuse.

They were playing the Miami Heat with LeBron, Wade and Bosh who wound up never losing a playoffs series to an Eastern conference team…

Ask Clipper and 76ers fans what they think of Doc Rivers’ coaching in the playoffs.

non sequitur.

You said all coaches have bad records in game 4 when they’re down 2-1. I picked two contemporaries at random to disprove your assertion.

Doc Rivers has blown 3 series with a 3-1 lead idk if that’s the guy you want to highlight for his playoff coaching acumen

Team Obtuse is out in force tonight.

We lost because they have IQ. We had IQ and now he’s injured, and thus we have zero IQ. They still have lots of it.

Welp, can’t say I’m surprised about any of this.

@Ramahawk, if my take about Brunson being an average starting NBA PG is so absurd, why can I easily name 10 better starting PGs? He’s solid and a very good value but he’s just not a real star.

This is down to Thibs and Randle. I like Thibs a lot, but he just lacks talent. He’s a try-hard version of Van Gundy who doesn’t have JVG’s fierce intellect or ability to inspire confidence. I think his anxious, plodding demeanor trickles down to the troops, just the way Spo’s cool confidence does to his. I’ve seen enough.

Randle also needs to go. I’m sorry but the guy just isn’t a winner. He’s as mentally weak as he is physically strong, and he doesn’t have much more time to mature. He is what he is, and now is the time to sell high before he has another down year. I’m tired of the constant mental mistakes and wavering effort.

I’d prefer that we lose Game 5 at this point because extending this to 6 saves more face than is deserved by anyone involved. It should be unmistakable to Rose that Thibs and Randle need to go.

Wasn’t your point about Thibs that he never won a series when down 2-1?

However you define ‘league average NBA starting PG’ it certainly doesn’t represent Brunson’s value, to this team or any other. Say it’s true that he’s only the 15th best starting PG in the NBA. That doesn’t mean he isn’t a star—because all top 15 PGs are really good! If you define a ‘star’ as a top 50 player that has a reasonable usage (my definition), then JB is certainly a star even if there are 14 PGs better than him.

He’s also very underpaid relative to his productivity.

I mean Steve Kerr has one of the 7-8 best basketball players who ever lived, we have a bunch of pretty good but banged up guys.

He just used Gary Payton Jr to flip the series on its head. Not exactly a hall of famer.

Hubert are you pretending that 7 games is particularly meaningful like what the fuck are we even doing. Maybe Thibs teams should be 2-5 or 1-6. You’d be saying Thibs is what he is he’s 2-5 if he was.

Wasn’t your point about Thibs that he never won a series when down 2-1?

It was not.

He has never won a game 4 when his team was down 2-1.

This is supposed to be a “throw the kitchen sink” game. But Thibs starts throwing the kitchen in December. He’s got nothing left to throw. And I think that 0-7 record really underscores this.

When Thibs goes down, Thibs stays down.

@The Unbearable Knicksiness of Being, may I call you Knicksy for short?

Yes, the level of starting NBA PGs nowadays is really high, so an average starter at that position is very good. Nonetheless, at least 10 teams have a better one than we do, and that’s IMO our best player. I do concede he’s valuable on his contract, but if your best player isn’t top 10 at his position, your team’s potential is capped pretty low.

Compare our top end talent to the other remaining playoff teams and it’s really no contest, right?

As Knicks head coach Pat Riley 3 times was down 2-1 in a series and lost all 3 series. Granted they all went 7 games but still. JVG with the Knicks was down 2-1 in a series 5 times and lost 4 series but the series he won was vs Miami in the 2nd rd!

We were all talking about series, which was what the stat in the broadcast stated.

If he never won a game 4 either, well that sucks and isn’t great, but he was at a huge disadvantage in most of those series either way.

@pagliacci,

Re: your last point—I certainly agree. We just don’t have the lead guys to compete. But I think that’s more of a Randle issue than a Brunson one. JB has played pretty well these playoffs in tough defensive series with a bad ankle. Randle, meanwhile, has totally disappeared. I think JB is a bonafide star, and I think Randle just doesn’t have the mental fortitude to be that guy in the playoffs. If you paired Jalen with someone like Bam, Lauri, or (gulp) KP they would be formidable.

If the argument is that Thibs isn’t in the league with the very best coaches in the association, that’s fair. He’s got warts. One of them is that he maxes his team out in the regular season and there’s really not any juice left to squeeze out of the orange after the regular season is over.

OTOH, by maxing out during the regular season, he gets you to a seed you wouldn’t have with someone else coaching. There are probably more than 25 current coaches in the association who wouldn’t be getting criticized for their coaching job against the Heat because the team would already be on vacation, having lost in the play-in as Vegas predicted they would.

I also agree with those who feel that unless you have a coach like Spo or Pop, they should have virtually no say over the personnel that the FO provides beyond just being a voice in the room.

At the end of the day, it’s pretty cool that we’re all so disappointed that we are likely losing this second round series. But we really never belonged here in the first place. We are by far the worst team left standing and are getting exposed by a better one. But we won the Cavs series because we didn’t have to worry about being down 2-1 and winning game 4. That’s progress. But it’s also a reminder to the FO (and players and coach) that there’s still lots of work to do.

That’s more than enough for me to be okay with Thibs getting another season. Opinions vary!

Not to be a centrist but Thibs is a fine coach. He’s got plenty of flaws too. Idk, we weren’t winning the title this season. I think he deserves some credit for the team doing better than any of us thought it was going to do, but he deserves some blame for this series too.

You’d be saying Thibs is what he is he’s 2-5 if he was.

If Thibs were 2-5, then he would be someone different, and this wouldn’t be a discussion. You’re so obtuse. You know if the Bills had won two Super Bowls instead of losing all four…

On another note, my biggest positive takeaway from the playoffs thus far is that RJ has played pretty well. Both he and Julius did a lot to justify their contracts, at least in terms of trade value. Had we not made it to the second round, RJ would be viewed differently as a trade asset than he will be going into the summer. And there is a lot for him to build on this offseason.

I’ll be coming out of this playoff performance mildly RJ-curious—at this point we should probably hold onto him just because he’s still not valuable enough to feature in a star trade AND barring a star trade he’s one of our only routes to getting better. Which is…discomfiting.

Thibs won a playoff series with Nate Robinson as his 2nd leading scorer in the series, I want to see Kerr or Pop pull that off!

Maybe a lot of coaches would be down 0-3 or maybe Thibs was better at keeping his team ahead in series he won.

At worst, Thibs is perfectly adequate as a coach. There’s plenty of bad coaches and only a few great ones, and those guys don’t change teams much.

Yeah Hubert winning a title is the same thing as winning a game when you’re down 2-1.

Thibs has a specific weakness, and it’s when his team is down 2 games to 1 in the playoffs he doesn’t know how to coach that game, which is unlike all other games. Only Doc Rivers, widely considered a bad playoffs coach, knows the secret.

i dunno where ppl think the heat did some amazing thing by knocking off the bucks with basically giannis out for most of the series…

again.. the heat are not some juggernaut.. they are the 8th seed.. they did not alll of a sudden turn into one of the league’s best teams over night… max strus is currently their third best player and that really tells you all you need to know how we’re doing…

but in case you need even more reminding… our ortg is closing in on the cavs ortg for the entire playoffs….

“On another note, my biggest positive takeaway from the playoffs thus far is that RJ has played pretty well. Both he and Julius did a lot to justify their contracts”

Jessica Alba is definitely a Knickerblogger’s life partner in this timeline. G’night everyone…

Steve Kerr has one of the 7-8 best basketball players who ever lived

Thibs has one of the 7-8 best basketball players in this series. That’s gotta be good for something, right?

The game 4 stat is silly. It matters who you are playing, and it matters how the series ends. A lot of other things matter too. It’s just a dumb clickbait stat that KBers should be able to see through.

Question: who would you rather have on your team, Reeves or Poole? They are kind of on opposite ends of the spectrum: one looks good but plays bad, the other plays good but looks bad. Ultimately, it’s a high ceiling vs high floor debate, I suppose.

Thibs has a specific weakness, and it’s when his team is down 2 games to 1 in the playoffs he doesn’t know how to coach that game, which is unlike all other games.

Or…

Thibs has a specific weakness, and it’s that when Plan A doesn’t work he can’t come up with a Plan B.

Being 0-7 when you’re team is down 2-1 is an outstanding example of that.

“Donnie Walsh says:
May 9, 2023 at 00:13
The game 4 stat is silly. It matters who you are playing, and it matters how the series ends. A lot of other things matter too. It’s just a dumb clickbait stat that KBers should be able to see through.”

You’re either being obtuse…or acute…or right. I’ll go with right.

You know what, Z-Man made me laugh out loud. That was cool. I’mma check out now. G’night.

Steve Kerr can’t come up with a defensive strategy to stop Lonnie Walker.

Helps when plan B involves Dwyane Wade or Kevin Durant/Klay Thompson instead of Carlos Boozer or Julius Randle

I know he’s hit few in his life, but Steph taking that quick 29 footer seemed silly.

On a serious note WTF were the Warriors doing those final few minutes, pretty stunning to watch.

Lebron claiming he told Lonnie Walker to be ready because they would need him is a tremendous Lebron lie

Does the LA arena have 3 levels of luxury boxes?

Yes, there are almost no regular seats left. (I figured msg had gone a similar way, but haven’t been there in 18 years. Is Dolan missing the boat on corporate tax write-offs cum luxury boxes?)

Lebron claiming he told Lonnie Walker to be ready because they would need him is a tremendous Lebron lie

That made me chuckle!

Kerr made an outstanding adjustment. The Lakers countered. That’s life.

No one can do it all the time. Most coaches can do it some of the time. Thibs does it none of the time.

I guess Thibs should’ve made a change in his starting lineup too

One of the all-time greatest South Park episodes is “Stanley’s Cup,” where Stan has to become the coach of a pee-wee hockey team, and everyone treats him like he’s this stereotypical coach right out of the movies, to the point where the parents of a kid on the team who has cancer wants Stan to tell their son he’s dying. When Stan says that that sounds like something the father should handle himself, the dad tells him, “Nah, I’m just his father, but you’re his coach, you’re like a father to him.” Hilariously messed up.

Anyhow, that’s exactly how crazy all of this, “You can’t expect the Knicks to beat the Heat!” stuff sounds like to me. Like, whatever, in general, I’m just happy the Knicks won a series at all (and this series obviously isn’t over yet), but come the heck on with this stuff. The Heat got their asses kicked in the play-in game by the Hawks, then nearly lost the second play-in game to the super-mediocre Bulls. That we’re supposed to now say, “Nah, you can’t expect the Knicks to be able to beat the Heat” is bonkers to me. You can say the Heat are better than a typical #8 seed, sure, but that we can’t realistically expect the Knicks to beat them? Come on. The Heat had a negative SRS this season!

If you really want to buy into that, then what even is the point of this current Knicks team, if you think they don’t even have a realistic chance against the Heat, who barely made the playoffs?

If you really want to buy into that, then what even is the point of this current Knicks team, if you think they don’t even have a realistic chance against the Heat, who barely made the playoffs?

The Knicks were favored in Vegas to win the series. It’s bullshit.

Looks like yet another season of Thibs “overachieving” but running aground because he “doesn’t have the horses.” Even though he has a big say in picking the horses, and entire say in how many minutes each horse plays.

Part of a coach’s job is to convert his player capital into enough output to defeat the other team. Spo seemsto do this on a superior level than Thibs. That said, Miami won the game in the 4th quarter by getting seven to nine more shots than the Knicks. How much that can be placed on Thibs is debatable. When it came to loose balls the Knicks seemed to be running in mud and even oldsters like Lowery were tracking and getting long rebounds. Jhart only had two rebounds all game.
Edit- Miami has made sure to put a body on Mitch to good effect.

Does anyone really think that the Heat team that just gentleman’s swept (there, I said it) the favored to win the title Bucks and is on the verge of doing the same to us is really the team that had a negative SRS in the regular season? And that’s why we should be winning?

The regular season and play-in don’t mean shit right now. Ask the Warriors. And the Bucks. And the Griz. And the Kings.

Did we have a “realistic” chance to win the series? Sure. On paper. But now that we are 4 games in, there are no illusions. They are not just better than us. They are the better team from top to bottom, all things considered. There is nothing flukey about what they are doing, on either end.

Should we have been favored? No way. Let’s keep in mind that the Vegas line is based on what bettors are anticipated to think. The Heat don’t give a shit about what Vegas thinks.

We’re seeing the importance of:
a) having legit 2-way superstars (they have 2, we have 0),
b) having playoff experience beyond the first round (they have oodles, we have a meager amount), and,
c) coaching (they have the very best in the business, we have a second-level guy.)

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