Knicks to Sign Kemba Walker After Thunder Buyout

I think this helps us with the disgruntled star watch.

Absolutely love this move, though I wonder what the contract looks like, since it hasn’t been reported yet. Would Kemba be open to a multiyear deal at very little money due to his buyout? Probably not, right? Which means that this is a one year deal at the remainder of our cap or at the vet min. If he shows out on a 1yr deal, what do we do with him–just let him walk (he would mess up our cap plans otherwise, no)? We wouldn’t get any Bird Rights on him, right?

Still, I feel way better about this team than I did before:

Walker
RJ
Fournier
Randle
Mitch

Rose
IQ
Burks
Obi
Noel

The main weak link I see here is the health of our PGs, both of whom are injury-prone. We’d do well to sign a stopgap PG with our room or whatever we have remaining, or hope that McBride can do a reasonable facsimile of PG in y1.

Still, !!!

It is very nice to know that the Lakers aren’t the only team to have gifts fall into their laps. This is so awesome.

holy #^*#%$T$@#

Absolutely love this move, though I wonder what the contract looks like, since it hasn’t been reported yet. Would Kemba be open to a multiyear deal at very little money due to his buyout? Probably not, right? Which means that this is a one year deal at the remainder of our cap or at the vet min. If he shows out, what do we do with him–just let him walk (he would mess up our cap plans otherwise, no)? We wouldn’t get any Bird Rights on him, right?

Yeah, presumably it’s a one year deal, but I’m sure they can figure something out next year, if need be.

And yes, he loses his Bird Rights when he is bought out.

love it

I mean I don’t think All-Star Kemba is walking through that door, but he could be pretty good next year and he’s better than Elfrid Payton.

I mean I don’t think All-Star Kemba is walking through that door, but he could be pretty good next year and he’s better than Elfrid Payton.

He’s no longer that level, but he can still be very good when healthy.

Wow! Unexpected!

Let’s see what Kemba has left in the tank. Hopefully he’s still decent or at least better than Schroeder.

now …this is awesome…local kid coming home..

Doing some quick math, there are 144 minutes available at the 1-3 for IQ.

Let’s say 25 goes to Walker. 25 to Rose. 32 to Barrett. 32 to Fournier. 20 to Burks. That’s still 10 for IQ. That’s not nothing.

It’s Grimes and McBride who might as well pack their G-League bags right now.

bidiong the not so great:
Now we know why the 19 pick read vaporized. Lol

Yes!! Leon and co. clearly knew when this manna from heaven was coming( just when you thought that you’ve been gypped, the bearded lady comes and does a double back flip )

Now we know why the 19 pick was vaporized. Lol

Obviously this wasn’t part of their actual plans (or else they wouldn’t have been trying to sign Nunn yesterday), but if it were, it would make vaporizing the #19 pick make even less sense, as now they would be able to develop any number of interesting projects at the #19 spot without any need of them developing any time soon. In other words, not needing your rookies to play right away gives you more options with the pick, not less.

again.. the overall strategy kind of sucks… but this is a massive turn from Schroder/Jackson to Kemba Walker… and if you’re riding or dying with the gang… then you need to account for the gang flopping.. like Rose in particular.. and Walker mitigates that nicely…

and there is some upside on a bounceback… i’m not sure what the injury risks are… but there must have been something that caused the celtics to eject so quickly and okc to give up with a buyout…. so i don’t think we’re getting old kemba back.. but who really knows…

but given all this… we paid a whole lot of money for Rose.. Burks and Noel as bench pieces… which didn’t sound good at the time and doesn’t sound all that good in hindsight…. but if that’s what we’re going with this is the best news out of a bad situation…

Since he’s being bought out from the two years he had remaining on his deal, can’t the Knicks basically offer him a two year contract at the minimum? He’s getting paid anyway from OKC. Or is that not allowed with buyouts?

To create the same amount of space they could’ve dumped Knox or waived Vildoza, so no, incinerating the pick does not look any better and as BC said actually looks worse.

but given all this… we paid a whole lot of money for Rose.. Burks and Noel as bench pieces… which didn’t sound good at the time and doesn’t sound all that good in hindsight…. but if that’s what we’re going with this is the best news out of a bad situation…

Yeah, exactly, I still don’t like the approach, but being gifted Kemba helps make the approach work a whole lot better. I’m very pumped (option #1. ;)).

Healthy Kemba is pretty much the perfect PG for this team from an offensive perspective. Obviously there’s huge question marks about whether he can stay healthy but this is a really nice dice roll at a low cost. I think it’s safe to say there was a time not that long ago when the Knicks would have given up a first round pick to acquire Kemba on his max salary, so we’ve come a long way from that perspective.

I do wonder about the defense a little. Going from Payton+Bullock to Kemba+Fournier is a massive downgrade defensively in the backcourt. We still have Mitch+Noel to clean up issues which will help a lot but it’s going to take a big effort from Thibs to make this a top-5 defense; they have no real business being that from a personnel perspective.

Roster right now:

PG: Kemba/Rose/McBride/Vildoza
SG: Fournier/IQ/Grimes
SF: Barrett/Burks/Knox
PF: Randle/Obi/Taj
C: Noel/Mitch/Sims

Unless I forgot someone, that’s 16. Sims likely gets a two way contract. So Vildoza’s ability to make the team will depend in part on whether the FO sees a player they like better, maybe on the wing?

Of all the PG options out there, other than getting Lowry, this would have been my preferred–if I had known it was an option!

And sadly for strat, this probably means no to resigning Frank on the cheap.

I now like the make-up of this team. If we can turn Knox into a draft asset, the only real blemish on the off-season will be the 19th pick future punt.

Management sucks!

Thibs sucks!

We incinerated everything!

They are almost as bad as Phil!

Walker, RJ, Fournier, Randle, Mitch/Nerlens

Rose, Quickley, Burks, Obi, Mitch/Nerlens

Still have excess picks.

#nevermind

He actually couldn’t have chosen any of those teams if he wanted money

Nah. I’ll suffice it to say that the prime directive of this FO…making NYK an attractive destination for FAs…has been accomplished in less than a year, without taking future-killing starfucking short cuts.

i’m getting ‘mission accomplished’ on an aircraft carrier vibes…

They are almost as bad as Phil!

You using a comparison to Phil as an insult is delightful to see.

We. Did. It.

DJ, Kemba’s injuries and decline are definitely a concern but also OKC seems hellbent on getting rid of any competent veteran basketball player that might mess up their tank. I wouldn’t read TOO much into them buying him out.

They actually don’t normally buyout guys, so this clearly is a sign that they felt Kemba was untradeable.

Still worth it for the Knicks, of course, but he was also clearly untradeable at his previous salary.

Sounds like they’ll be using the rest of their cap on Kemba (so about $8 million). It’s gotta be a one-year deal, so that limits them to a small raise next year, but perhaps that will be enough for him and then they can give him a 75% raise for year three. And if they need to dump guys to clear out more room for him, they can do that, as well, if he turns out to be worth more.

How is golden boy Brad feeling now? At the time of the Kemba trade, the thinking was to gain the flexibility to sign Fournier.

Both now end up with a division rival. Danny A must be shaking his head…

Brian, why does it have to be a one year deal? Couldn’t they do a 2 or 3 year deal starting at $8 million?

Boston leaned on Kemba for around 33 minutes a game. If Thibs earmarks 27-29 minutes for Kemba – that would be the optimal situation.

***Should I do an end zone dance like the detractors were doing when we signed all those 3-year deals?… Edit: at $8M, that’s less proof since the other teams couldn’t offer that much.***

Glad you didn’t go ahead with that end zone dance, you would have blown your knee out doing the worm.

Why does it have to be a 1 year deal?

It doesn’t have to be, I’m saying why would he take a two-year deal at that money when he could rehabilitate his value and get paid a lot next season?

No negativity in this thread. I pushed for acquiring Kemba from Boston when he had a salary, so I absolutely love this move. This is like manna from heaven.

Deeefense:
Management sucks!

Thibs sucks!

We incinerated everything!

They are almost as bad as Phil!

Walker, RJ, Fournier, Randle, Mitch/Nerlens

Rose, Quickley, Burks, Obi, Mitch/Nerlens

Still have excess picks.

#nevermind

You forgot that Jonathan Macri is delusional.

Ok, given Kemba’s recent performance and his injury issues / age etc I was very against signing him at his current contract or trading assets for him… but getting him for literally free on a small contract is a huge, fantastic move. This saves the off-season in my opinion. If he can somewhat go back to his prime this will be extremely fun to watch, and if he doesn’t there’s no risk involved. I’m excited again.

What else do we need? I’d like us to sign a defensive wing. Maybe Winslow?

This is a no-brainer and I’m extremely happy we did it, but I am very confused as to the idea that it somehow makes the Noel et al. contracts better. If you thought those contracts were good before, you should still think that. If you thought they were bad before, you should still think that.

Getting Kemba Walker on a (presumably) 1/$8M deal doesn’t change anything about them. It’s its own transaction.

Should I do an end zone dance like the detractors were doing when we signed all those 3-year deals?

I’m pretty sure literally everyone said we needed to wait-and-see if there were non-guaranteed years. With Burks it was actually falsely reported that all three years were guaranteed, so you can’t blame people for reacting to the information we had.

Regardless, even as 2 + 1s I think those deals are mediocre at best.

However I am exponentially more excited about this team than I was yesterday as like every other good New Yorker I love Kemba Walker!

A 2 year contract will give the Knicks Early Bird Rights on Kemba, so perhaps that figures into the equation.

Screw Lonzo, Devonte, Reggie, Kendrick, Dennis and all the rest of them.

We got Kemba!

Holy shit! This is playing with house money- assuming it’s for one of the exceptions or something. What would be really shrewd is trading Vildoza for a 2nd right now. I don’t doubt that we can get a full season of quality PG play between Kemba, Rose, and Quickley and can afford to bring McBride along at a great pace..Grimes too. We have had a solid offseason haul that isn’t disappointing considering alot of folks expected a splash. Fournier better be ready to play defense though- we are definitely going to need it if Kemba starts because I have alot more faith in Rose’s defense

Love Kemba, wish it was 3-4 years ago, want to see IQ play and develop, fear it’s not going to happen.

I should add one thing. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it seems reasonable to assume they wouldn’t have been able to sign Kemba if they didn’t “incinerate” that 1st round pick (I mean push it out so they could still use in a stronger draft or trade) and trade the other down to save that cap space.

It’s almost assuredly a case of Kemba taking the $8 million from the Knicks because that’s what the Knicks have (remember, he’s being paid out by the Thunder, as well, so the specifics of the money for this year are almost meaningless). In other words, if they had $6 million, he would take that. So, in a word, no.

Oh true, I’m sure the Knicks would love for him to sign a two-year deal for that very reason. I just don’t see the benefit for him to do that.

he’s still getting his money either way tho right? whatever he signs for just comes out of his current contract… if he plays well here he has near unlimited upside on a bird extension in year 2… vs whatever is out on the free agent market…

he’s still getting his money either way tho right? whatever he signs for just comes out of his current contract… if he plays well here he has near unlimited upside on a bird extension in year 2… vs whatever is out on the free agent market…

It he has a good year this year, he can sign a long-term deal next year that would outweigh the money he’s owed for just next year. It’s a lot better for him to sign a long-term deal as soon as possible, given his age.

djphan: i’m getting ‘mission accomplished’ on an aircraft carrier vibes…

There’s obviously still a lot left to the mission. But for now, that part of the mission has been pretty much accomplished. Or do you disagree that the public perception of the NYK has turned around dramatically? That we are far more attractive of a destination than we were on March 2, 2020? Do you really have the temerity to disagree with that?

One thing’s for sure…I’m happy that the guys in charge are not dumb enough to think that passing over Davion Mitchell at ##19, 21, 25, etc. would have been a good idea. Or passing over consensus top-3 pick LaMelo Ball at #8 would have been a good idea. Or passing over IQ at #25 for Devon Dotson last year would have been a good idea. Now THAT’S incinerating draft picks!

It’s almost assuredly a case of Kemba taking the $8 million from the Knicks because that’s what the Knicks have (remember, he’s being paid out by the Thunder, as well, so the specifics of the money for this year are almost meaningless). In other words, if they had $6 million, he would take that. So, in a word, no.

If you want to believe that OK, but there are teams out there that need a PG (like playing with Zion) and a cheap team like OKC probably had their limits on what they would pay him in a buyout. It’s no lock he’d give up another 2m.

I should add one thing. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it seems reasonable to assume they wouldn’t have been able to sign Kemba if they didn’t “incinerate” that 1st round pick

Jonathan Frakes Voice: It’s a total fabrication, pure fiction.

It was already discussed upthread that the Knicks had plenty of other avenues to get that $2mil in cap space like waiving Vildoza. No need to retcon that move, it was still dumb.

I should add one thing. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it seems reasonable to assume they wouldn’t have been able to sign Kemba if they didn’t “incinerate” that 1st round pick (I mean push it out so they could still use in a stronger draft or trade) and trade the other down to save that cap space. At the very least, there’s something else good they wouldn’t have been able to do.

1) You’re wrong about this, they could’ve dumped Knox or stretched him if it came to that.

2) Like BC said, Kemba was almost certainly just taking whatever amount of money we had left.

3) A stronger draft? Buddy, we have no clue what draft we traded into.

Yeah, dumping that 19th pick seems amazingly brilliant now, doesn’t it?

In fact, the justification for it (that we couldn’t possibly play that many rookies) has completely evaporated. The cap space would’ve been easy to create other ways.

marechal
August 4, 2021 at 10:28 am
Since he’s being bought out from the two years he had remaining on his deal, can’t the Knicks basically offer him a two year contract at the minimum? He’s getting paid anyway from OKC. Or is that not allowed with buyouts?

Marechal, probably New York and OKC negotiated what NY would pay Walker. A team that wants to buy someone out wants to save money doing so. So they look for a team that will pay more than the minimum for the player. Then they can give the player less money in the buyout and he stills earns what he would have under his existing contract. I don’t think it’s an accident that the reported salary is close to what the Knicks have in remaining cap space. OKC knew that’s what the Knicks could pay and it was enough to make the buyout worth it for OKC.

I have no idea how the logic works for year two. IIRC, most players who are bought out have one year remaining. Maybe OKC is buying him out for $8M less than he would earn for the two years and NY is signing him for one year at $8M. Or maybe NY wants him for two years. I suspect the new contract can be flexible in terms.

thenoblefacehumper: In fact, the justification for it (that we couldn’t possibly play that many rookies) has completely evaporated. The cap space would’ve been easy to create other ways.

You keep believing and asserting that it was a terrible move. lmao

When we use that pick in a trade that lands another top tier talent, enables us to move up in a future draft, or to draft a player we like better instead of drafting a rookie role player now buried on the bench using cap space we could use more effectively this year maybe you’ll see it made sense given their plans.

strat.. doesn’t it tell you that you’re trying to strain justification on trading the draft pick when you were just so wrong about the cap implications of it just now? or does it not register? it’s ok to be wrong… i don’t know why people are so afraid of it….

thenoblefacehumper: thenoblefacehumper
August 4, 2021 at 10:59 am
This is a no-brainer and I’m extremely happy we did it, but I am very confused as to the idea that it somehow makes the Noel et al. contracts better. If you thought those contracts were good before, you should still think that. If you thought they were bad before, you should still think that.

Getting Kemba Walker on a (presumably) 1/$8M deal doesn’t change anything about them. It’s its own transaction.

If the Kemba/Rose tandem excites you, then you are less inclined to feel that Rose/Burks over Lonzo, or Rose/Noel over Lonzo, or any combo of the contracts over Lonzo made no sense. So I think there are obvious reasons to consider context in evaluating the merits of those deals.

thenoblefacehumper:
To create the same amount of space they could’ve dumped Knox or waived Vildoza, so no, incinerating the pick does not look any better and as BC said actually looks worse.

I don’t understand why you continue to use unnecessarily provocative metaphors. It’s just childish and stupid. Grow the fuck up.

Hubert, Thibs played 10 guys consistently last year. And occasionally 11.

Yeah, a ten-man rotation is definitely in the cards, I think. IQ will be in the rotation. It just might only be for 10 minutes a game.

I don’t understand why you continue to use unnecessarily provocative metaphors. It’s just childish and stupid. Grow the fuck up.

eyeroll

Deeefense: You keep believing and asserting that it was a terrible move. lmao

When we use that pick in a trade that lands another top tier talent, enables us to move up in a future draft, or to draft a player we like better instead of drafting a rookie role player now buried on the bench using cap space we could use more effectively this year maybe you’ll see it made sense given their plans.

Again, it doesn’t make it the optimal choice, but all of this is possible. It’s a probably (by any reasonable statistical analysis) a slightly devalued asset, with a reasonable (say 25%) probability of being a more valuable asset either in a current transaction or in the future. Calling it evaporaated or incinerated is just stupid. As are many, many of the recent hot takes of those who insist on doing so, and we have plenty of evidence for that.

Fair correction, Alan. I’ll rephrase: I expect IQ to be the 10th man and I expect him to play much less.

thenoblefacehumper: In fact, the justification for it (that we couldn’t possibly play that many rookies) has completely evaporated. The cap space would’ve been easy to create other ways.

What we wouldn’t have had was roster spots or the money. I stated this a few days ago. Managing NBA rosters is complex and most fans don’t get the nuances. Not pointing fingers at anyone. What I’m saying is that Leon Rose surrounded himself with the best of the best when it comes to these things. World Wide Wes, Brock Aller, etc. all know more than all of us combined. They also have inside knowledge we don’t have an inkling about.

We didn’t trust Phil. We didn’t trust Mills. We hated Layden. Isaih Thomas was horrific. Anyone remember Dave Checketts? Glen Grunwald? Donnie Walsh was OK but he’s a Pacer. When was the last time that had a competent GM? We have one now.

But I remain every bit as skeptical that we will ever amount to more than a team that gets bounced in round 1, and that’s not what I want for the Knicks.

This is a very good team, but there are injury risks, the defense is almost certainly going to take a step backwards, and it’s not a contender YET.

However, we have Mitch, RJ, OBI, and Quick (and 2 rookies we haven’t seen yet), A couple of those guys are eligible to break out into serious players. At least 1 might this year. We have all our own 1st round picks, 2 excess first round picks, and an entire boatload of 2nd round picks. We are also now FINALLY a destination!! There’s plenty of ammo to upgrade and add another star in a deal. We are not locked into this team. We are simply better, much better positioned for FAs and trades as a destination, and loaded with ammo. Be happy!

Just spitballin’ here… is it possible that this FO may have been privy to info that we layfolks would not have known?

They just tried to use the $8 million they’re using on Kemba on Nunn yesterday, so I’m going with a no there.

EDITED TO ADD: Stupid djphan.

The Zach Lowe podcast has a good segment about the Knicks today (pre-Kemba news). He and Kelvin Pelton basically theorize that (i) the Knicks think that the current wave of extensions will dry up FA in the future, so cap flexibility is not necessarily the best way to get a star in the next couple of years; and (ii) they are betting that by keeping the team good, eventually a superstar or two will force their way here, and the assortment of contracts they have (and picks) would make it easier to maneuver in that direction. It’s not how I would build the team, obviously, but at the same time I don’t agree that this is just like the old Knicks. There’s a bit more thinking of asset management here, and keeping some doors open/not overcommitting to a specific strategy.

Tell you what, Hubert. Take your winnings from the Giannis MVP bet, incinerate them, and see what you can buy with it. Then tell me if that applies to the protected draft pick we got from CHA. Let me know how that turns out.

that you’re so sensitive to the word ‘incinerate’ just tells everyone what they need to know in how sensitive you are to any criticism of this FO…. that you would call one of the most mature posters on this board childish speaks to the lengths you will go to troll people…

i have no idea why this board tolerates it….

Not even I can complain about this one.

The fact that the Celtics used a first round pick to dump Kemba so that he could sign with the Knicks is amazing. Add in them spending two second round picks to get Fournier and then he ends up on the Knicks is even more delightful.

Hubert:
Fair correction, Alan. I’ll rephrase: I expect IQ to be the 10th man and I expect him to play much less.

It is also possible that IQ, an all-rookie candidate Leon stumbled into at #25 (lol) gets packaged with the #19 pick he incinerated for a better player. All of the young guys can be viewed as possible trade chips. I for one hope we keep him and continue to play him, but he’s a second year player under contract at a minimal salary so there’s really no downside to not playing him all that much.

That said, there’s going to be plenty of load management taking place with Kemba and Rose, and maybe even Fournier, who tends to get dinged up. He’ll likely get 1000+ minutes, and more if he improves dramatically from last year. And for all we know, Kemba will not work out and will get waived mid-season.

Thins has a deep roster to play with. That’s a great thing to go into a grueling 82 game season with, especially as the league is more saturated with talent than ever. Leon has the assets and flexibility to swing deals as needed. This should be a time of great anticipation for any fair-minded fan, even with the draft-day hiccups.

a weird dynamic here is that kemba is a biggish name and particularly likable. there is a (slim) chance that if he looks fairly healthy for 20 games and washington or portland struggle, he actually tilts the decision scale of beal or lillard, given how nba stars tend to think. in that case we’d find out pretty quickly how alienable some of our off-season signings were (post the dec 15 or whatever deadline), since we’d have to shed a good bit of peripheral salary, presumably to a third team, to do a deal like that.

djphan: that you’re so sensitive to the word ‘incinerate’ just tells everyone what they need to know in how sensitive you are to any criticism of this FO…. that you would call one of the most mature posters on this board childish speaks to the lengths you will go to troll people…

i have no idea why this board tolerates it….

I went away because I didn’t tolerate it, just like he spent weeks baiting me on every post with the word “mediocre” in an “unnecessary, provocative metaphor” way because he hated the word, no matter how much I explained what I meant.

Anyway, great deal, hope to see a rested and recovered Kemba hitting big shots at MSG.

Yeah, punting the 19 pick was still dumb, though.

It really does look even worse now, knowing that they were going to bring everyone back and so that whoever they drafted wasn’t going to play anyways. So they could have picked anyone and let them develop, Toronto Raptors-style. Passing on the option to get good young talent for cheap is never a good idea.

A bigger picture thought about management:

I thought Mills & Perry largely had the right idea, but they committed massive blunders while trying to execute (blunders like Knox, Fizdale, and stretching Noah). So ultimately they were terrible bc of those blunders (even though they did acquire our 3 best players).

Conversely, Leon Rose has the wrong idea. But he is very good at executing it. He does deserve praise and I’ll admit I’m hard on him. I like to use a rock-climbing analogy a lot with him. Some guys start at the bottom and just go. They start climbing, they make gains, they look good, they get halfway up the wall… and then they get rim rocked. That’s what I see happening here.

You’re not supposed to just try to make gains. You need to chart a path to the top. And I don’t see that here.

Obviously Kemba Walker is a better player than The Plague and we’re better at PG now. Even last year’s version of Kemba is still a decent player, and he’s only one year removed from being a 4 BPM player. He’s probably not likely to get back to that level, but you never know.

I think the idea that Leon Rose has made the Knicks into a palatable destination has to be considered correct after this signing. This is essentially a free PG that has fallen into our laps.

Bravo! Credit where it is due. Didn’t see this one coming.

FWIW, my .02…

Speaking as someone who rarely posts but religiously checks in on this site every day… I’m grateful for the work that djphan and tnfh do leading up to the draft. Absent a handful of games in the NCAA tourney, I don’t watch college hoops so I know sweet fuck all about any of the prospects come draft time.

I find the info provided by KB’s resident draftniks to be tremendously helpful in bringing me somewhat up to speed on the players involved. Moreover, I prefer their takes to what I might find on some rando draft site on the web as I already know where they’re coming from, what they look for, their likes/dislikes etc. That they ultimately may wind up making the wrong call is of little concern to me. Comes with the territory My bottom line is that watching the draft is made a lot more entertaining for a know-nothing like me on account of whatever insights KB’s draftniks can provide. I, for one, hope they keep going through the trouble of doing what they do.

Bruno Almeida: I went away because I didn’t tolerate it, just like he spent weeks baiting me on every post with the word “mediocre” in an “unnecessary, provocative metaphor” way because he hated the word, no matter how much I explained what I meant.

Anyway, great deal, hope to see a rested and recovered Kemba hitting big shots at MSG.

Bruno, FWIW, I hope you resume posting regularly! You’re missed here.

Getting Kemba is probably a lucky break, but I too look forward to him on the Knicks!

Bruno Almeida: I went away because I didn’t tolerate it, just like he spent weeks baiting me on every post with the word “mediocre” in an “unnecessary, provocative metaphor” way because he hated the word, no matter how much I explained what I meant.

Intelligent, mature people know how not to use triggering language to make a point. Words like “incinerate” and “mediocre” have pretty narrow meanings. If they clearly don’t apply, don’t use them.

There’s also a certain irony in that that folks can use the most insulting language in responding to strat and others, but don’t like it when it comes back their way. If we have a standard for poster behavior, it should apply to all…and it should include not using “unnecessarily provocative metaphors” to make a point. We’ve been doing this a long time, folks know each other’s triggers pretty well. And if you don’t like when I refer back to the recent dumb shit that you spouted with unflinching conviction, well then don’t continue to spout dumb shit with unflinching conviction.

Burks seems a little superfluous, he’ll be getting minutes that should be going to IQ. But depth is important too, and injuries happen. I do hope IQ gets the minutes he deserves.

Z-Man was incinerated once as a kid, and it hurt, so he’s sensitive, okay.

There’s a 22 year old on here? That means they were in elementary school when I started posting here. Ouch, my mortality.

Z-Man, you need to let it go. Even though I lean towards more your opinions, you’re making it unnecessarily personal and emotional and it’s not helping.

Z-man: Intelligent, mature people know how not to use triggering language to make a point. Words like “incinerate” and “mediocre” have pretty narrow meanings. If they clearly don’t apply, don’t use them.

The term “incinerate” works perfectly for a situation where you trade a dollar of draft capital for an expected 50-75 cents of draft capital. The 25-50 cent loss was literally for nothing.

You’ve never understood the mechanics of this, or what people are even saying. And now you have the audacity to tell people who know what they’re talking about not to use a word that makes perfect sense to them as a descriptor? Seems rather snowflake.

What should people think about a situation where someone is so in the tank for a basketball management team that they have trigger words from which they need a safe space?

My bottom line is that watching the draft is made a lot more entertaining for a know-nothing like me on account of whatever insights KB’s draftniks can provide. I, for one, hope they keep going through the trouble of doing what they do.

completely cosign…

The pick wasn’t incinerated. It was just very badly charred.

TheClashFan: Bruno, FWIW, I hope you resume posting regularly! You’re missed here.

Getting Kemba is probably a lucky break, but I too look forward to him on the Knicks!

Thanks man! I’ll be here every now and then when there’s stuff to talk about, I still enjoy most people here a lot and the level of discussion is still very high. I’ve just decided I’ll refuse to directly engage with Z-Man in any discussions, like I did with strat years ago, specially because there’s really no point in continuing to submit everyone else on the board to a discussion that’s clearly personal. I don’t need more stupid negativity in my life in my current fucked up situation.

Hubert: Hubert
August 4, 2021 at 11:58 am
Z-man, you make great points and I respect your point of view. Just stop with the name calling and personal attacks. We’re a community here.

Agreed, Hubert, and I think that’s reflected in my recent response to your more measured posting. Honestly, I think you’d be a blast to have a few scotches with at a KB get-together. I just didn’t like a particular insinuation you made about me, and if you knew me better, you’d know why. I also appreciate that you have a thick skin and a sense of humor.

I’d also like to differentiate between “name calling/personal attack” and attacking a posting record on its merits and language. Nearly all of my “attacks” tnfh and djphan have been about their recent posting history (including things we had vehement disagreements about, e.g. Lamelo vs. Killian, IQ vs. others, and of course, Leon Rose’s performance thus far as a POBO at various steps. I never attacked them (or you) in their personal lives. yet I have not been afforded the same deference.

And yes, after those heated disagreements, it matters how things eventually turned out, and who was right and wrong. As I said before, admitting you were wrong is nice, but if you arrive at the same kinds of half-baked conclusions with the same conviction as if nothing happened, then those admissions become meaningless. Taking myself out of the picture, I have yet to hear tnfh or djphan say “hey swifty, you were all over that shit last year, I sure could learn something from you and should take your posts more seriously than I did then…” Nope, same know-it-all, condescending schtik, and likely, same woeful miscalculation to follow. Which is fine, but when it’s rubbed in your face in the future, don’t get all thin-skinned about it.

Bruno Almeida: Thanks man! I’ll be here every now and then when there’s stuff to talk about, I still enjoy most people here a lot and the level of discussion is still very high. I’ve just decided I’ll refuse to directly engage with Z-Man in any discussions, like I did with strat years ago, specially because there’s really no point in continuing to submit everyone else on the board to a discussion that’s clearly personal. I don’t need more stupid negativity in my life in my current fucked up situation.

Bruno, I have nothing but love for you. I miss your posting too. PS: Do you still think that we lost to a mediocre team?

Hubert: But I remain every bit as skeptical that we will ever amount to more than a team that gets bounced in round 1, and that’s not what I want for the Knicks.

Hey Hubert – Compared to a year ago, even your skepticism for team expectations has improved! That’s still progress!

Hey, no one “wants” their team to be bounced in the first round, or any round honestly. And for all the background fears I sense of some that we’re facing an Orlando Magic-low playoff seed purgatory, three things:
1. I don’t think you can fairly count last season in the sense that we weren’t predicted to sniff the playoffs at all.
2. It could happen, sure. I just feel the fear behind it is some sort of mental shielding from the risk of expecting better and then being potentially let down.
3. Didn’t the Magic post-Dwight commit to an overall youth movement? My non-nuanced take is that their key young guys developed some but didn’t “pop”.

As I said before, I don’t believe any Knick fan needs to excuse their pessimism. At the same time, we don’t have to give in to the deepest recesses of fear either.

Let’s go get some this season!

Z-man: Bruno, I have nothing but love for you. I miss your posting too. PS: Do you still think that we lost to a mediocre team?

Thanks for the love, I guess. But I still won’t fall for the bait.

Didn’t the Magic post-Dwight commit to an overall youth movement? My non-nuanced take is that their key young guys developed some but didn’t “pop”.

They started to develop a bit and then decided it was time to “Win now” and so they dealt Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis for Serge Ibaka, so…yeah. 😉

Saw this tweet and it made me smile

The Celtics essentially traded a 1st round pick, two 2nd round picks, and took on Al Horford’s contract for Kemba Walker and Evan Fournier to walk to the Knicks for cap space

Now all that needs to happen is the Celtics in desperation sign Elf.

This made me smile:

The Honorable Cock Jowles
August 4, 2021 at 11:47 am
Not even I can complain about this one.

I’m not sure it’s as simple as if we had 6 he would take 6 or since we offered Nunn 8 we couldn’t have been negotiating with KW earlier. I’m not sure we will ever know. Isn’t it possible though that OKC was on the fence about buying him out and us offering to offer him 8 for 2 years offsetting their cost got them there…and that negotiating with Nunn could have been a bluff (I’m asking if this is feasible, have not done any research). Seems more of a stretch, but isn’t it possible that negotiation stretched all the way back to the draft, so punting out of 19 was part of it to free up the $ to convince OKC to buy him out?

I’m more of a process then outcome guy, but if the outcome is we get Kemba for 2 yrs, I’m going to stop worrying about the NYK process for a bit here and try to enjoy the team.

Brian Cronin
August 4, 2021 at 11:07 am
I should add one thing. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but it seems reasonable to assume they wouldn’t have been able to sign Kemba if they didn’t “incinerate” that 1st round pick (I mean push it out so they could still use in a stronger draft or trade) and trade the other down to save that cap space.
It’s almost assuredly a case of Kemba taking the $8 million from the Knicks because that’s what the Knicks have (remember, he’s being paid out by the Thunder, as well, so the specifics of the money for this year are almost meaningless). In other words, if they had $6 million, he would take that. So, in a word, no.

swiftandabundant: But we also gave them game one, started Elfrid Payton,

Tom Thibodeau did that, against all basketball sense and reason. Elfrid Payton didn’t start two playoff games because Zeus commanded it from Mount Olympus.

And I know it seems to be a trigger word around here, but he got badly outcoached by Nate McMillian. And he ran Derrick Rose into the ground. That’s part of the story of the year, too. People are free to ignore that, but it happened. Yeah, that was last year but it’s still relevant because Tom Thibodeau is still … you know … the Knicks coach. Once the playoffs started, he lost his “every game is Game 7” advantage and the results were … not pretty.

Count de Pennies:
Personally, I think “The Incinerator” would make a bad-ass nickname. If I were Leon Rose, I’d wear it with pride.

I was on the verge of changing my handle when I saw this. But I can’t since you jumped me on being clever.

Your skepticism is certainly warranted, but again, just exactly one year ago we were expected to win 22.5 games.

I predicted a playoff berth before the season started, and pegged then for 36 wins when everyone expected them to crater, so I don’t think I need to grade them on other people’s expectations.

I have always believed that Leon Rose and Tom Thibodeau could get us to the middle. It’s taking us beyond that I doubt.

I know Jalen Johnson and Keon Johnson are flawed prospects, but they were also undeniably lottery talents that fell into our lap at 19 & 21. You don’t punt on lottery talent at 19 & 21, even if it’s questionable. They could have been our 11th & 12th men for two years while they played sparingly and matured. And then I would have given Leon an A plus for the off-season for balancing short term and long term goals.

Count de Pennies:
Personally, I think “The Incinerator” would make a bad-ass nickname. If I were Leon Rose, I’d wear it with pride.

Let’s go one step further.

How about The Mediocre Incinerator?

One of the nice things about this move is it gives you a reasonable way to be optimistic about the Knicks for next season. Even if Kemba doesn’t play any better than he did last year if he gives the knicks 1500 minutes at that level it’s like a 3 or 4 win improvement on Payton

Voted “Very Pumped”. I know there’s injury issues with Kemba, but this is the more well rounded team that we had in… i don’t know for how long to be honest… Marbury was good, but the rest of the team wasn’t like this.
Let’s just pray that Kemba can stay healthy, for this to not be Stat 2.0.
(and like yesterday i comment first and only now i’m going to read the thread)

Hubert: I predicted 36 wins and a playoff berth, so I don’t think I need to grade them on other people’s expectations.

I have always believed that Leon Rose and Tom Thibodeau could get us to the middle. It’s taking us beyond that I doubt.

I know Jalen Johnson and Keon Johnson are flawed prospects, but they were also undeniably lottery talents that fell into our lap at 19 & 21. You don’t punt on lottery talent, even if it’s questionable. They could have been our 11th & 12th men for two years while they played sparingly and matured. And then I would have given Leon an A plus for the off-season for balancing short term and long term goals.

They have a shortfall in U-23 talent now and there’s no way they’re going to make it up with this approach because they’re heading toward not being in lotteries but still not really being that good — i.e. purgatory. Would have been better to have been in the lottery last year and obviously way better not to have [verb that dare not speak its name]-d the 19th pick.

We’re heading toward a Thibsian veteran/loyalty roster that will get a few extra Thibs wins in the regular season that won’t translate to the playoffs for the foreseeable future.

The best thing for this team would be for RJ Barrett to take one more big step, become the best player on the team, and make this HIS team. He’s got the moxie to do it; he might (but might not) have the talent; but even then, there’s a real question whether Thibs will accede to it.

Granted, I don’t think he’s a franchise savior, a la Lillard, but the price? C’mon. We went from Payton to Kemba at essentially the same salary. I never saw that coming.

DRed:
also shit like this is why you never spend all your money at the start of free agency

Key word is “all”. Establish the floor first and then shoot for the sky.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: franchise savior, a la Lillard

Obv, Lillard >>>>>>>>>>> Kemba but is Lillard minus a shit-ton of assets still > Kemba minus nothing? That one seems much closer to call.

Give me Bronx-born, UCONN alum Kemba Walker on the Knicks over Lillard any day of the week. I just love to see it (but yeah he’s not as good).

Also, Kemba may want a multi-year deal because of injury. Probably a player option though.

The path to non-purgatory is RJ taking the next big step in the next 1-2 years and an S&T for Zion next summer. All the rest is really just noise.

swiftandabundant: Also, cap space is important but flexibility is key. Miami year after year is at the cap with no cap space and yet they’re able to figure out ways to get Butler and Lowry and there is no reason we can’t do that same.

Miami has a built in tax advantage on NY of around 8%, plus an additional 3% if a player wants to live in the city. On a $30M AAV contract that’s something on the order of $3M per year.

I have to co-sign concerns that we aren’t building a sufficient young core compared to where we are relative to elite teams. I’d feel a lot better about the team if it had Jalen Johnson or a number of other players who were available with the incinerated pick (can’t stop won’t stop), and as we’ve discussed it wouldn’t have cost us a single 2021-2022 win to do so. That’s what’s kind of gutting about it.

Still, I do think this is a great sign as to the prospects of the next star who asks out wanting to come here specifically. Whether or not we ever reach contention honestly might boil down to just how good that star is–I like Bradley Beal, but don’t think he gets us there assuming we have to trade a ton for him. Zion on the other hand…

I’m a little less concerned than some others about Quickley’s minutes because I’m assuming he’ll get just about all of the minutes missed by Kemba and/or Rose and, well, yeah.

Interesting. Oladipo returning to Miami. I wonder what the cap effect is on that. I think you don’t need a cap hold, even, to re-sign a guy at his previous salary, but I could be wrong.

one way out of purgatory was using the picks a lot better than how he used it…. at least one of the rose/burks/noel bench triumverate is superfluous… and even if it it wasn’t… there are absolutely opportunities to develop players in the gleague just like many successful franchises do…

and that’s why the 19th pick wasn’t some small mistake… errors compound… bad process led us to skipping over haliburton in favor of toppin instead of being patient with randle… also led us to punting on the 33rd.. that guy could have filled a roster spot rather cheaply instead of using it on the one of the bench trio…. you don’t respect the draft often enough you’re stuck with mediocre veterans with zero upside and all the downside that they present… kemba walker and derrick rose included…. do we need to burn a lottery pick to hit this point home after we incinerated a 2nd and a mid first?

and that’s where we’re at …. this plan is no different than any other coach as gm plan as there ever was… it’s the same as larry brown as gm… mike dunleavy…. phil jackson… and essentially our gm is probably thibs at this point… they want some veteran players so they’re not absolutely terrible and then when they lose they will blame the players and continually jettison them at whatever cost until they get whatever they want .. if it’s not this team it will be the next team.. same thing happened with thibs in minnesota…

they don’t really think more than the next year and it hurts the overall trajectory of the team… and i think we all see that… that doesn’t mean we can’t enjoy success if it comes in the short term…. it’s just i think we all know where this is headed and it’s not really something to be going gaga over…

Has anyone on team “don’t incinerate picks” noted that in 2015-2016 the Raptors won 56 games and went to game 6 of the ECFs, then proceeded to draft Pascal Siakam and play him mostly in the G-League?

Like, good teams still try to develop players, guys, I swear.

THe only way to a championship is convincing a player who’s never been to the playoffs to come here. OK.

Quit rosterbating over other dudes we don’t have. Its pathetic.

I just hate this whole idea that you somehow have a crystal ball that shows the future.

if nobody has a crystal ball then why does it matter what we say vs what you say is the future? what guarantees do we have that we’re any good next year like you’re saying then? wouldn’t that make your optimism misplaced if none of it matters?

Safe to say it’s been fun reading this thread.

We need Knickname for Evan Fournier asap…any thoughts?

“French Connection…the good one this time.”

Ryan McDonough (former Suns GM?) just tweeted that Burks, Noel, and Rose contracts are all 3rd year team option.

Also that Kemba’s is a 2 year deal at $8-9MM AAV.
Not clear whether 2nd year is fully guaranteed or is a team or player option…

Can we kill this Siakim G-league narrative now?

so what about FVV?

djphan: i have no idea why we tolerate it…. especially when it’s now been multiple people the target of your ire that brings the whole board down and make people not want to participate…. it’s tiresome… and that’s why i would have gladly gotten a mutual ban if it meant you went away too… and i would still take that….

We just have different definitions of what we call tiresome. I find your posting incredibly tiresome yet would never call for you to be banned. But hey, opinions vary.

Hubert: sorry, Z-Man, your behavior is consistently abhorrent. You’re the common denominator in every fight on this board. The only difference between you and Bob Neptune is that you ingratiate yourself to several key posters. But you behave exactly like him.

It’s nothing but personal favoritism to ban one and not the other. The conduct is the same.

The bobneptune comparison is curious, being that he was banned in part for incessantly spouting conspiracy theory bs based on nothing but innuendo and preconceived narratives. Hmmm…who does that sound like?

Rose-Burks-Noel are absolutely necessary. The falloff between them and a rookie is likely to be pretty gargantuan. Maybe Grimes or McBride steps up, but you hope that happens and don’t rely on that happening. I really don’t understand your point here as there would be a big hole in the rotation without all 3.

Re Jalen Johnson — plays power forward, can’t shoot, went to and left 3 different high schools, then went to Duke and then ejected on that situation too. Given his high profile, there’s a 1000% chance Alex Kline, Kenny Payne, and co. know him extremely well.

So much of what determines a player’s success is non-physical — I don’t see a whole lot to complain about here. Selling the 19th pick for uncertain future return? I can complain about that. Not using the 19th pick on a guy who has clearly has some sort of commitment issue? Not complaining about that.

If there’s anything the Leon Rose draft picks have in common, it is that they are total gym rats and are very very clean on personal background. Obi, Quickley, Grimes, McBride — all known to be major gym rats and workers, and all were lauded by their coaches.

I don’t know enough about Keon Johnson, but he sort of screams Zhaire Smith to me – Uber-athletic guy who doesn’t really know how to do stuff. Zhaire was also a favorite here as I remember it.

Jalen’s combination of steals, blocks, assists, and rebounds are pretty insane. He also averaged over 20pts per 40. He can’t shoot, but that’s tremendous talent there.

He does have some pretty big character question marks which is why he fell. Also, the sample wasn’t the biggest.

Nice way to wake up from an afternoon nap (then I had to read all the posts…)

Kemba (a personal favorite since “that” Big East Tournament) on a 2yr deal at 8-9 per?
No Dennis Schroder? No The Plague Part III?

Great day to be a Knicks Fan!
Verrrrry pumped…

Welcome back Bruno! You’re missed, hope things will get better for you ASAP

And I’m adding myself to Count and Geo: thanks to DJPhan and TNFH for everything you do about the draft, your work is indispensable.

thenoblefacehumper:
Has anyone on team “don’t incinerate picks” noted that in 2015-2016 the Raptors won 56 games and went to game 6 of the ECFs, then proceeded to draft Pascal Siakam and play him mostly in the G-League?

Like, good teams still try to develop players, guys, I swear.

Sure, but can we also point to the majority of picks at least 5 spots outside the lottery who never become ful-time NBA rotation players? And that we actually are trying to develop players, picked at 25, 34, 36, 57, and UDFA? Not to mention Obi, IQ and Vildoza? And that lottery-protected picks, even those that have a risk of devolving into two seconds, are used to facilitate trades all the time?

I agree that we did not get good value in exchange for the pick. My main objection is that it was used to justify the “this FO doesn’t know what it’s doing, we’re doomed to perpetual mediocrity, theyre just as bad as all the previous FOs, more terrible moves are coming” narrative. This narrative reached a fever pitch when everyone thought the deals were all fully guaranteed without giving the FO the benefit of the doubt. Even now, the assumption is that Kemba fell into our lap. Is it possible that WWW’s value is in getting inside info based on his vast rolodex of connections. throughout the NBA universe? I don’t know, but I will at least allow for the possibility.

GoNyGoNYGo: I was on the verge of changing my handle when I saw this. But I can’t since you jumped me on being clever.

How are you feeling now? What kind of symptoms did you have at the worst?

Re Jalen Johnson — plays power forward, can’t shoot, went to and left 3 different high schools, then went to Duke and then ejected on that situation too. Given his high profile, there’s a 1000% chance Alex Kline, Kenny Payne, and co. know him extremely well.

Jalen Johnson is just a proxy for who could have been picked… but trading out of that spot communicated that NO ONE past 19 was going to make it on the knicks squad.. so it’s not just Jalen Johnson.. it’s also Keon Johnson and Isaih Jackson… Josh Christopher.. Nah’Shon Hyland… et al…. take your pick…

Of course, FVV was an undrafted FA so sending him to the g-league is expected.

ok so what about Delon Wright?

We just have different definitions of what we call tiresome. I find your posting incredibly tiresome yet would never call for you to be banned. But hey, opinions vary.

oh they’re just opinions? is this just another narcissistic way of not taking responsibility for what multiple people say about you? like that kind of feedback just gets brushed off as their opinion and only yours matter? is that it?

your behavior is abhorrent… the only crime any one of us have ever committed is that we don’t talk the way you like about the knicks… it’s take a real clown to then start attacking people over that..

but hey… that’s just my opinion… you clown yourself everyday like this on the internet and in real life so no sweat off my back… you keep doing you…

Bruno Almeida: I’m still a bit cautious mostly because good things like this don’t just normally fall our way

This is an important point. The reason good things like this didn’t tend to fall our way is because we were a fucking clown show for two decades (which I believe is longer than your Knicks fan history, correct?) It fell our way precisely because we’re not a clown show any more. Kemba could have picked any team in the league to hook up with. Does anyone really think that Kemba would have chosen to come to the Knicks if they were coming off of a 23-win season and just fired another coach? Does winning more games than anyone in the universe predicted (except swifty, bless your heart!) and employing the reigning coach of the year have anything to do with his decision? Might other waived vets follow suit if they see an opportunity to join a winner?

There’s finally reason to expect that “lucky breaks” coming our way will no longer be “not normal.”

Hey Bruno, if there’s only one place for a portuguese speaking poster, i’ll stop. I miss your posts very much, as i agreed with most of it.

djphan: but hey… that’s just my opinion… you clown yourself everyday like this on the internet and in real life so no sweat off my back… you keep doing you…

thanks for the permission, you’re so magnanimous! And thanks again for your insights into what I do in real life. The’yre about as valuable and accurate as your draft takes.

Max: And I’m adding myself to Count and Geo: thanks to DJPhan and TNFH for everything you do about the draft, your work is indispensable.

Yeah, that’s it. Thanks DJ and TNFH, i love to read your views about the draft.
And, Max, looks like Schroder is still standing? Is there still a pair available for him to dance? 😀

Chris Roberts
@ChrisRobertsNBA
After mulling the decision for weeks, Washington Wizards All-Star guard Bradley Beal is planning to request a trade, per sources.
1:57 PM · Aug 4, 2021

Do we have enough assets to get this done now?

Ryan McDonough
@McDNBA
Kemba Walker will sign a 2 year contract with the Knicks in the $8-9 million range, per league sources.

New York also has Team Options for the final seasons on the Alec Burks, Nerlens Noel and Derrick Rose contracts (in addition to Evan Fournier’s, as was previously reported)

Team options for the final year of all the contracts. Management is looking better every few hours. lol

My biggest problem with the “pessimists” on this board is to me they just seem to do so because it makes them look right.

The simplest solution is to just debate people over what they say, not over the motives that you assign them, which will often not even be accurate. Basically, for everyone, don’t ascribe motivations to other people for saying what they’re saying and everything will be much nicer.

thanks for the permission, you’re so magnanimous! And thanks again for your insights into what I do in real life. The’yre about as valuable and accurate as your draft takes.

unlike what you do in real life… some people appreciate it… but maybe you go on trying to convince others otherwise… it’s going real good for you…. you can also go back to my 2015..2016…2017.. 2018..2019.. board and pick out all the things wrong with those… your analysis would be appreciated…

i should ask… what positive contribution have you made to this community other than tone policing everyone? which i think only strat.. swifty and frank are liking at this point.. but i guess that’s positive!

DudeInKnicksTown:
Chris Roberts
@ChrisRobertsNBA
After mulling the decision for weeks, Washington Wizards All-Star guard Bradley Beal is planning to request a trade, per sources.
1:57 PM · Aug 4, 2021

Do we have enough assets to get this done now?

I’m not backing up the Brinks truck for Bradley Beal.

Dame, probably.

I’m not certain how reliable Chris Roberts is as a source either.

My biggest problem with the “pessimists” on this board is to me they just seem to do so because it makes them look right. If you’re entire premise is if the Knicks aren’t a championship contender the front office is doing it wrong then yeah you are going to be able to gloat that you’re right.

i think i’m the progenitor of the argument… championships aren’t the only thing that matter… on this board.. i don’t like starphucing… but we’ve also had this argument about the mediocrity treadmill… of which it’s long been established that this approach isn’t ideal… it’s an approach.. but it leads you down the road to the same mediocre results….

but maybe this is different…. we’ll see… but there are arguments laid out that it is… and i find those pretty convincing… and i think if you think differently you should say why also… not just because you don’t like what i have to say.. but why you believe you do… i’m curious about it just like we all are…

but no one’s going to buy any pure appeal to emotion… which is i think the optimists are leaning too much on… but that’s kind of what the last few years have been about…

DJ,

All the players you’re mentioning did play in the g-league but they didn’t play in the g-league much. It wouldn’t really be fair to say they developed there so much as stayed warm. Even then the Raptors found a large number of games to play them in. Even then the Raptors weren’t rostering 4 rookies a year.

It’s fair to say not many teams play draftees or rookie FAs in the g-league and when they do they still find them NBA minutes.

That’s quite possibly what happens to Grimes & McBride.

But we already have McBride, IQ, Grimes, Obi & Sims to take whatever minutes aren’t eaten by vets. There aren’t enough NBA minutes to go around for our young talent even allowing for injuries.

I also find the work of the guys who look hard at the draft to be consistently among the highest quality posting on the site – it requires a lot of research and for myself as somebody who really only follows the NBA I find it an excellent way to catch up on the prospects each year. And obviously it should go without saying, but willingness to go against the consensus view is the only way to add any value with your analysis (goes for all types of analysis to be honest) and being occasionally notably wrong is the cost of that.

The constant completely unprompted harping on it…there’s no word for it other than trolling at this point and now it has done what trolling does which is infect yet another thread and lower the quality of discussion yet again…

That Chris Roberts account only has 227 followers pretty sure his sources dont exist

How about Evan “Don’t Google My Name” Fournier?

thenamestsam:
I also find the work of the guys who look hard at the draft to be consistently among the highest quality posting on the site – it requires a lot of research and for myself as somebody who really only follows the NBA I find it an excellent way to catch up on the prospects each year. And obviously it should go without saying, but willingness to go against the consensus view is the only way to add any value with your analysis (goes for all types of analysis to be honest) and being occasionally notably wrong is the cost of that.

The constant completely unprompted harping on it…there’s no word for it other than trolling at this point and now it has done what trolling does which is infect yet another thread and lower the quality of discussion yet again…

Yeah, it’s awesome work. And also, yeah, it’s bizarre for others who didn’t do the work to then use it as ammo in later years as if the draft is some exact science.

I think the consensus on the board is that we both contribute positively and that our feud is tedious.

lol, this is like saying Braxton Bragg and Ulysses S. Grant both contributed positively to the Union victory…

hint hint z-man, you ain’t ulysses

djphan: you can also go back to my 2015..2016…2017.. 2018..2019.. board and pick out all the things wrong with those… your analysis would be appreciated…

Our feud began with your 2020 board. You were condescending towards my takes on IQ, particularly with my defending the pick based on some synergy-based analysis, which in retrospect turned out to be spot on. Yet in your mind, the jury is still out and you have nothing to learn from that experience. Which is pretty clear in your ranking 3 guys over Cade and the entire first round over Davion.

This time of year lends itself to heated conversations since most takes are hard to prove. I generally don’t go out on a limb with definitive draft takes very much…Frank, Killian, and now Davion to a lesser degree…most of the time I’m calling people out when they go out on a limb and speak with a level of certainty that makes them vulnerable to eating crow down the road. I sure ate some crow about my Bargnani take, and deserved every bit of it, and learned from it.

The current hot take is “Leon fucked up the draft so Leon will likely fuck up free agency on the way to fucking up our chance to build a sustained period of being a legit contender because the FO doesn’t know what they are doing, just like the prior FOs.” The record will show that this was the same hot take many had here last year, and those that had it shouldn’t be upset when they are reminded of how wrong they were.

As to your draft takes, I don’t find them particularly accurate or enlightening compared to what I can derive for myself by looking at well-created scouting videos and tuning into the work of Mike Schmitz et. al. Others here finds them invaluable. As I said, opinions vary.

Guys, life’s too short.

It’s not the g-league minutes so much as the lack of NBA minutes which already promise to be scarce for the young players we do have. Each player you mentioned played nearly as many NBA minutes as g-league minutes, if not more.

Z-man: most of the time I’m calling people out when they go out on a limb and speak with a level of certainty that makes them vulnerable to eating crow down the road.

LOL. Most people, even if they’re so inclined, wait until there’s actually crow to eat. “The language that you use makes you vulnerable to eating crow sometime three years from now and that language chaps my ass so I’m gonna break your balls incessantly about it now?”

Come on, man. Sounds like you just can’t bear to abide people having strong opinions stated strongly about your sacred cows.

Our feud began with your 2020 board. You were condescending towards my takes on IQ, particularly with my defending the pick based on some synergy-based analysis, which in retrospect turned out to be spot on.

So basically Z-Man is overly sensitive and desperate for online validation, and if he doesn’t get it from someone, he will spend the rest of his life trolling him like a motherfucker, to the detriment of everyone here.

But it’s TNFH who needs to “grow the fuck up”.

wow – Oladipo signed for the minimum. That is brutal.

Ouch. This makes it, though, that the Heat will have his Early Bird Rights and there might be some wink wink nudge nudge stuff going on there.

cybersoze:
Hey Bruno, if there’s only one place for a portuguese speaking poster, i’ll stop. I miss your posts very much, as i agreed with most of it.

Absolutely not Cyber, besides we can always use the excuse that we almost speak different languages because our version of Portuguese sounds different, so you stay right where you are.

I want the details of that Kemba deal! It’s gotta be a 1+1, but it’d be really, really cool if he just signed a two-year deal for no reason!

I know that vets on one-year contracts essentially have no-trade clauses, but does that apply to vets on 1+1 deals? Like, if Dame shakes loose at midseason and Kemba is playing well enough to be part of a package, could we include him?

If you ever find yourself about to type ‘our feud began with your 2020 board,’ stop typing.

Our feud began with your 2020 board.

You hold grudges that long? Yeesh. This may have something to do with why pretty much everybody has some sort of beef with you.

So basically Z-Man is overly sensitive and desperate for online validation, and if he doesn’t get it from someone, he will spend the rest of his life trolling him like a motherfucker, to the detriment of everyone here.

Remind me never to get on Hubert’s bad side.

Aten:
If you ever find yourself about to type ‘our feud began with your 2020 board,’ stop typing.

Haha!

Thanks, Bruno. I’ll keep posting and you promise to post one comment for each two of mine? Three?
You try to keep up! ;D

Look, as a card carrying Team Pessimist member I absolutely wish the Knicks had pursued a hard rebuild at any of the numerous opportunities they have had to do so in the past 20 years. We would have been a way better team and being a fan would have been way more enjoyable in the aggregate. And that’s factorial.

That said, I think most members of Team Pessimist would grudgingly agree that there is a baseline level of competence being shown in the way the current FO is executing their no-tank approach. They put a decent team together that outperformed our expectations last year (maybe a bit of a fluke but still) and they look poised to compete for the 7-8 spot next year and be perfectly cromulent. Which isn’t nothing and probably will get butts in seats and ad revenue in Dolan’s pockets.

It’s not what I would do but it’s a long way from Isaiah and PJax.

Hubert, so you never posted anything akin to Dolan’s still calling the shots, or Mills is the source, or Thibs is going to make all the personnel decisions, or we deafted this guy on something other than merit? (These are just examples off the top of my head). Were you not doing an end-zone dance just yesterday when you thought all of those FA signings were validation of your suspicions about this FO?

Hey JK! Glad you climbed in off the draft night ledge to weigh in! Since whe did we evolve into a community where it’s off limits to bring up someone’s posting history when they make current statements and predictions that you disagree with? Is that the new norm, that you’re not allowed to bookmark stuff?

Hey JK! Glad you climbed in off the draft night ledge to weigh in! Since whe did we evolve into a community where it’s off limits to bring up someone’s posting history when they make current statements and predictions that you disagree with?

I don’t know but you cried about it pretty good when you got called out for stanning Andrea Bargnani, which is just about the most embarrassing historical take possible.

I thought you were the kind of dude who would talk some shit and then it’s all forgotten because we’re all friends, but apparently you hold petty grudges for very long amounts of time, which is why we seem to have arrived at this critical mass where pretty much everybody is annoyed at you.

Lighten up, my brah.

It’ll be real interesting to see whether Kemba being here really does take the ball out of JR’s hands.

A “years the Knicks were progressing toward a championship” historical chart would be pretty awesome. Probably every year from 1991 when they hired Riley through 2001, the year they lost at home to TO in Game 5 would probably qualify. ’08 when they hired Pringles through 14, when they traded for Bargnani and started floundering again. 14 to now is tough, would have to give it more thought; 18-19, the year before the Durant summer would probably be a yes. Now I don’t really think they are.

It’s not remotely a function of record, let’s be clear. It’s way more a function of organizational philosophy and steps/cap space commensurate with that philosophy.

Z-man, you’re sealioning now and that needs to stop. Settling old scores and reading from your KB Argument Ledger is a tough look for you. It seems like you have difficulty setting appropriate boundaries when talking about sports, given how you repeatedly interpret disagreements (loud and heated as they may be) as personal attacks, grudges, and feuds. It’s the behavior of an insecure person.

Remind me never to get on Hubert’s bad side.

ha! to be fair, I am highly sensitive, too. Nothing wrong with that.

Alot of talk now that the East has become the tougher conference, first time you can make that argument since the 90’s?

So Knox is sticking around as trade bait, right? Another team looks at his 3 point stroke and measurables and thinks they can develop him?

djphan: i’m pretty sure i wasn’t being condescending but it was terrible analysis to begin with for all the aforementioned reasons which i won’t bother repeating.. and it was terrible analysis because you can’t even explain why you turned out ‘right’ to begin with…

https://hoopsprospects.com/2020/05/12/immanuel-quickley-scouting-report/

I believe this is one of the pieces of evidence I cited that you summarily dismissed. This, along with watching numerous scouting video breakdowns, reading lots of draft analyses, and looking at box score stats, advanced stats, and synergy-style stats led me to the same post-draft conclusion that the author reached….that it was a perfectly acceptable pick at #25. It wasn’t on a whim or gut feeling. I put a lot of time into it, maybe not as much as you but lots. I don’t do that for 100 players like you do because I mainly concentrate on the lottery and the Knicks’ picks. Our entire board was blindsided by the pick. Some chose to dismiss it out of hand, while others (like me) chose to look deeply into it and give it a fair chance.

Sure, draft boards all contain a degree of error. But they don’t all leave guys like IQ off their boards entirely, or buck the prevailing opinions of paid analysts who conclude that LaMelo is a top-3 pick (or Cade is #1 or Davion should be in the upper half of the first round.) I don’t need to do an extensive analysis to conclude that any methodology that comes to these conclusions is probably deeply flawed, and that the purveyor of that methodology should consider some very serious tweaks.

For this year, I did enough research to conclude that Cade is a clear #1 pick and Davion should be picked in the top half of the first round. Those are two test cases for your board this year, since both are way out of alignment with the consensus of analysts.

and i take great umbrage for being on team pessimist since i caught a ton of flak for defending both randle and RJ… and it felt like i was fighting the whole board on RJ…

the only thing i’m pessimistic about is the overall strategy of this front office… i certainly enjoyed last year just like i enjoyed the brief playoff runs we had the last decade… but we all know how this ends… and it’s not that fun when it does and the run wasn’t all that great to begin with to have to go through that…

that’s my feeling on it and it’s not unlike what we’ve settled as a group as the mediocrity/purgatory/treadmill… that’s long been the consensus but seems like there’s a large lashback against it…

to put it simply i don’t care much about championships.. i loved the 90s knicks… falling short is absolutely fine.. but having good teams matter.. deep playoff teams matter… i don’t hold any great affinity to the melo/chandler knicks besides linsanity.. and to my feeling this squad will be equally as forgettable.. and i don’t think anyone thinks we have a memorable squad either.. and that to me is not something to celebrate and it’s worth pointing out… that’s all…

synergy-style stats led me to the same post-draft conclusion that the author reached

what synergy stats project to what? how often do you think these things translate vs not? can you say with any certainty that catch and shoot jumpers in college are the same as in the pro’s? do you have any idea how synergy stats are recorded in college vs in the pro’s? what kind of sample are you dealing with these metrics?

they were summarily dismissed for some reason… of which you never answered and then lashed out… you never answered these questions because you don’t know the answer and answering them would mean you were wrong… that’s not being condescending that’s you not engaging and getting emotional in response….

For this year, I did enough research to conclude that Cade is a clear #1 pick and Davion should be picked in the top half of the first round. Those are two test cases for your board this year, since both are way out of alignment with the consensus of analysts.

you spent two seconds doing research and decided that everything i did was wrong.. you probably didn’t even watch a single college game to have that conviction…

This thread makes me want to dig up the posts when I predicted ‘Melo to OKC for Enes Kanter, argued with someone that Joe Dumars was better than Toney Douglas, and gave Jim Cavan the idea to try out for the Knicks’ D-League team and write about it for ESPN. But I probably shouldn’t.

On another note, I’m pretty excited for Kemba’s two man game with Randle. Watch this!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe7w5Zt4YF0

Minor correction to my last post: if we actually don’t re-sign Randle, we will have cap space in 2023 assuming we decline and renounce all of the Noel/Rose/Burks options. How much exactly depends on draft pick salaries/cap holds, Mitch’s deal, and other small stuff but as best I can tell the only guaranteed contracts for 2023-2024 as of now are Fournier’s and RJ’s ~$27M cap hold, so it could definitely be a lot.

It’s funny, getting the third years not guaranteed on all of the deals is obviously better than not having them guaranteed, but at the same time, it’s better only because then you are protecting yourself from the downside of that third year. It doesn’t change much of the cap math, as whether it would be 2024 or 2023, Randle and (hopefully) Mitch will already be on new contracts that they signed in 2022.

By the way, once all of these other deals are signed, it probably does make sense to just extend Mitch now, as there is no need to have 2022 cap space anymore, so they can avoid having to let him be unrestricted. They might be able to get him to sign a slightly below market extension.

I’m excited to see Kemba in a Knicks uni. Even in his diminished capacity he is arguably the best point guard the team has had in 20+ years, so team optimism wins this argument. Having both him and Rose to man most of the minutes is a pretty big upgrade over the dreck that’s been masquerading at the position for most of this century. The front office just raised their offseason grade by a lot in my mind, although still not over the pick 19 snafu.

This team is pretty deep with good players even without “superstars”. Hopefully Thibs notices and changes his MO to maximize this advantage. Put me down as no thank you to unloading a bunch of players and picks for Beal, I’d rather see how this roster plays out.

I for one am not too worried about IQ, Mcbride, and or Viladoza getting minutes. It’s a long season and it’s a pretty safe assumption that both Rose and Kemba will miss significant time with injuries and/or load management. All in all a good problem to have for a change.

I wonder if mitch is disgruntled bc he is still making peanuts. We could have used his cap hold to sign everyone we did and still pay him this season, right?

Yes, they can extend him this season. They still can, though.

yeah but an extension starts next year; he’s still going to be making $2mm now.

What I’m wondering is if we could have renounced that final year, used his cap hold, signed everyone we did, and then given him a raise this year. Probably could have helped us get a better rate on him without any cap impact.

What I’m wondering is if we could have renounced that final year, used his cap hold, signed everyone we did, and then given him a raise this year. Probably could have helped us get a better rate on him without any cap impact.

Ah, yeah, good call. Yep, his cap hold would have been puny. But if he signs an extension, the money’s guaranteed, so I don’t think he’ll mind waiting a year for it.

Unless I’m mistaken about some cap machinations, we still have the room exception. I think we’re up against the roster limit, but seems like it’d be a mistake to just not use it at all.

Any good candidates left? Justise Winslow maybe?

They could also save it and hope that it gives them an advantage midseason when guys get bought out. Or can you not save a room exception?

After many days from the draft and hundreds of posts about the 19th pick let me throw my 2cents to the table too

I see it as a deep freeze minor bet which mostly depends on
1.charlotte’s future
2.strength of each draft
3.pick’s trading power

Calling this move as shit and the pick as gone seems to me as pessimistic and premature conclusion.
Only Time will tell who won this bag of pistachios imo

Z-Man has called me a dickhead, and I can totally live with that. But anybody who chases Bruno away and encourages TNFH and djphan not to post their draft opinions is doing a disservice to the board. (And to be litigating this stuff on the one day that everybody in the KB community is universally pleased with a transaction is just kind of sad and poopy).

Jack Bauer:
I’m excited to see Kemba in a Knicks uni. Even in his diminished capacity he is arguably the best point guard the team has had in 20+ years, so team optimism wins this argument. Having both him and Rose to man most of the minutes is a pretty big upgrade over the dreck that’s been masquerading at the position for most of this century. The front office just raised their offseason grade by a lot in my mind, although still not over the pick 19 snafu.

This team is pretty deep with good players even without “superstars”. Hopefully Thibs notices and changes his MO to maximize this advantage. Put me down as no thank you to unloading a bunch of players and picks for Beal, I’d rather see how this roster plays out.

I for one am not tooworried about IQ, Mcbride, and or Viladoza getting minutes. It’s a long season and it’s a pretty safe assumption that both Rose and Kemba will miss significant time with injuries and/or load management. All in all a good problem to have for a change.

Cosign on all of this.

One small thing: I understand the folks that would’ve preferred the team to take a flyer on 19 vs punt the pick down the road a bit. At the same time, I can understand if the team said, “ya know, the rest of the guys we targeted that , we can get them at lower picks” and decided the cost benefit of not selecting a guy they weren’t high on at #19 pick was worth what they could do w/the $ saved from trading the pick. Now, even you if can accept that and still say, “well couldn’t they’ve done better than a heavily protected future 1st”, I’d say maybe they could have. However, the fact that Charlotte cannot trade a 1 within the next few years w/out conveying the pick they owe us first is a bit of extra leverage. Not a lot, but just enough to not be insignificant considering Charlotte is an up-and-coming team that’s not a…

I’m a bit shocked,
all of a sudden, according to Woj, it looks like LaMarcus Aldridge will come back to play…

He actively didn’t want to retire. His doctor was telling him he really should. If he has a new treatment, I bet he’d be thrilled to return. I bet the Nets would be glad to bring him back to platoon with Griffin.

However, the fact that Charlotte cannot trade a 1 within the next few years w/out conveying the pick they owe us first is a bit of extra leverage

we’ve basically had similar leverage with the dallas picks and it hasn’t gotten us anything and there’s been scant examples of it ever happening around the league.. it’s not even something to weigh at all…

on a more cogent topic.. does anyone have details on Kemba’s knee? i know there were words like arthritis and degenerative thrown around and there was a botched rehab.. but has anyone actually done a deep dive on this? i have to imagine someone in boston fandom has got something on it…

on one hand i feel like it’s gonna turn out great.. there’s another that thinks we got a demarcus cousins situation where he’s both at a diminished ability and capacity to play games… if it’s the latter and thibs go thibsy on rose then we’re probably in trouble.. i don’t think we have much info on his knee but if there is please share!

djphan: you spent two seconds doing research and decided that everything i did was wrong.. you probably didn’t even watch a single college game to have that conviction…

See, this is at the root of our beef. You have zero idea how much film I looked at, how many articles I read, how many stat breakdowns I perused, etc. I never questioned your investment, you shouldn’t question mine. This is the intellectual snobbery I’m talking about in a nutshell. So if that’s your response, how is it possible to have a civil discussion with you?

And even if it was true (trust me, it isn’t) it is pretty telling that a guy who doesn’t “watch the games” can be so much righter than you in evaluating whether IQ was a good pick at #25 (like not watching the games live is disqualifying…like having someone elses’s scouting reports and film breakdowns can’t serve as a proxy for watching the games. Like anyone here who says “Didin’t you watch the games?” isn’t scoffed at as an eye-test loser.) If me doing even 5 minutes of analysis yeilds a far better result than you watching every game, etc., that doesn’t speak well for your methodology.

And for the record, I watched hours of film on Frank, on LaMelo, on Davion, on LaMelo….the good, the bad, and the ugly, not just the highlight reels (I was guilty of that in the past and learned from that mistake.) I read numerous articles and scouting reports. I listened to interviews, including those betweem the draftee and Mike Schmitz, which are less detailed than his film work but just another lens. Ever hear the expression work smarter, not harder? Try it some time.

Wow, the Nets got nuttin’ for Dinwiddie. Yikes. Two distant second rounders.

“If I can question one thing, I’d say if you know you are going to sign Fournier and Walker (or another scoring PG like Walker) it might make more sense to bring back Bullock than Burks. With Walker and Fournier, you are taking two steps back on defense for two steps forward on offense. Burks is just giving you more of what Fournier gives you but off the bench”

Agree 100%. Burks seems redundant with Fournier on board, Bullock would have kept the defense more at the level it was last year. As mentioned above, maybe it was that 3rd year guarantee, which makes sense as the years and money were otherwise the same.

At this point the defense will be a work in progress, especially on the perimeter. We’ll find out how much of a defensive mastermind Thibs really is with this roster.

Z-man: (And to be litigating this stuff on the one day that everybody in the KB community is universally pleased with a transaction is just kind of sad and poopy).

This is not true (other than the dickhead part).

Sorry Z-Man, certainly the Bruno bit and that last parenthetical bit is true. Just cut it out.

See, this is at the root of our beef. You have zero idea how much film I looked at, how many articles I read, how many stat breakdowns I perused, etc. I never questioned your investment, you shouldn’t question mine. This is the intellectual snobbery I’m talking about in a nutshell. So if that’s your response, how is it possible to have a civil discussion with you?

you’ve stated multiple times throughout the season you haven’t paid any attention to college ball and the draft then you muse on down a week before the draft and you’re now an expert saying i’m wrong and i have no idea why just that i am…

you keep talking about results and i keep talking about process… it’s why i keep talking about the draft.. so i share what i think.. so people know what i think… i post my opinions. . i post facts.. i post random musings… i post about other people’s work.. i post about freaking instagram stories of people’s workouts… people take away what they will and hopefully we’re all better for the exchange…

i could care less about the results.. i’m happy with mine given i’m just casual observer with no inside information despite all the failings you want to point out… these journalists with tons more info and more time than i do probably do spend a fraction of the time actually watching the games and analyzing it with any depth… a lot of teams don’t do it either! just look at our recent draft record!

and you! with nary anything to look at in comparison.. throw stones from your ivory tower taking people to task about their results yet for whatever reason we cannot look upon yours… that’s very curious when you claim to do this so much better than people yet we have no evidence of this…

i wonder why…

Donnie Walsh: (And to be litigating this stuff on the one day that everybody in the KB community is universally pleased with a transaction is just kind of sad and poopy).

BTW, it was kind of hard for me and others to enjoy draft day when the “analysts” were shitting all over every decision the FO made. It was kind of hard to enjoy FA day when the four horsemen of the aocalypse would have blushed at some of the commentary here. So it rings a bit hollow when I get blamed for ruining the happy mood when the FO hits a HR contrary to all gloom and doom that was posted prior to the Kemba news.

Z-Man, come on. There were tons of (what I think were) wild and in some cases idiotic takes during both, but they were takes on the events that occurred. Is what it is, emotions were involved. We’re all complaining about the “get a room” thing you have going with certain individuals that has largely taken this thread hostage and borders on infantile.

No, I take it back. No borders on this one.

Reggie Bullock was one of my favorite players this year. He had a great season for us. And then his offensive limitations made him a liability in the playoffs. So if the goal is to not stink in the playoffs, Alec Burks is the right call.

I’m excited about the offensive potential of this team for the first time since Jason Kidd broke down.

The one thing I’ll say is that the Kemba deal shows something that “team pessimism” has always banged on, which is opportunity cost. The Kemba signing is super exciting because everything about it is potentially surplus value. Here’s a player with a history of being a second tier superstar, who has shown the ability to score efficiently at high volume, who’s had injuries and struggles, but is getting paid adequately to the risk. This is the type of deal you can do when you keep flexibility up and have a good reputation around the league, which is the one thing I’ll say Rose has definitely done, no questions.

So that’s the point, nobody on “team pessimism” was ever against deals of this type, it was just about the type of player brought in and the type of deal given. Joakim Noah on 72 million over 4 years is garbage; Kemba on a short contract with a 8 million AAV, on this team, is a completely different world. It might fail spectacularly, but that’s still a good move regardless.

Bruno hitting the nail on the head. Wouldn’t have touched Walker on the Boston deal, but to have a player of his calibre fall into our laps for cheap is big a win. I think when you look at the off-season as a whole now, it looks a lot better. We have effectively “upgraded” Elf and Bullock with Walker and Fournier. It’s not a big win, but a win nevertheless.

I don’t think there’s a rule against waiving Luca and re-signing him with the room exception. We could tack on another $1M or $2M even.

Kemba may also let a couple $100K or so slide to sign Deuce at a number that’s technically not the minimum.

And DJ, you have to let it go. Seriously, dude. This is not a thread with two people on it.

Can’t believe I have to type this stuff. Wish I could just send you both to your rooms. With no internet.

Honestly i disagree on the Burks – Bullock thing. I’d rather keep Burks. For long stretches last season we relied absolutely on Randle, and then Rose and Burks to create any type of efficient offense, and in the playoffs Randle showed he wasn’t the most reliable possible shot creator as defenses went harder against him. It’s nice to have a player like Bullock who can defend and shoot stationary 3s, but this team was starving still for shot creation and now we have 5 guys who can legitimately, in different ways, provide it, with Randle, Kemba, Fournier, Rose and Burks.

I’ve come to the realization that one of the understated changes to the NBA hierarchy has been on the shot creation department. I’m convinced you can’t succeed in this game anymore without multiple guys on a roster who can do it, because defenses have gotten too smart and too accustomed to switching and helping. We saw it with Atlanta and Milwaukee, where Middleton and Holiday coming up huge gave the Bucks the edge over the Hawks depending on Trae to do it all with a hampered Bogdanovic. We’ve seen it with Portland and Denver struggling even though their one superstar guy is a no questions asked mega superstar, the same with the Nets post Harden and Irving injuries and the Lakers after AD went down, we’ve seen it with the Jazz when Mitchell just couldn’t do it against a more balanced team in the Clippers.

Do I think Randle, Fournier, Rose, Kemba and Burks are an elite group that will lead to us contending on that front? No, I don’t. But they might give us enough variety, and depending on Walker’s health and ability it might even work better than expected.

Two cartilage repairs in ca. 2015-16. Stem cell injection December 2020. The stem cell injection means the cartilage has degenerated pretty significantly to terribly. Kobe had either it or its very close cousin “platelet rich plasma” injection in 2012, Brandon Roy the same thing to get him back on the court (but it didn’t really last), a bunch of golfers and other athletes.

My credentials: Not a doctor, but have been dealing with a bad lower back for several months. Bunch of googling and medical research review. Had platelet rich plasma treatment on it literally six days ago. The idea is to regenerate cartilage, joints, muscles rather than just medicating them, icing, all the rest. It has a decent track record, but it’s still “experimental.” Vast majority of insurance doesn’t cover it; I had to go full-on out of pocket.

thanks E for that… sounds pretty bad.. as i understand this is a pain issue with the meniscus? is it similar to dwyane wade’s knee issue where he was able to manage the pain? long term doesn’t sound good especially after his career but we could look to wade as an example depending at what stage kemba is at…

some more info on the knee and some drama around the rehab…

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2021/06/celtics-concerns-with-kemba-walker-started-due-to-lack-of-knee-rehab-ahead-of-nba-bubble-report.html

Hubert:
Reggie Bullock was one of my favorite players this year. He had a great season for us. And then his offensive limitations made him a liability in the playoffs. So if the goal is to not stink in the playoffs, Alec Burks is the right call.

I’m excited about the offensive potential of this team for the first time since Jason Kidd broke down.

I agree re: Bullock vs Burks. Reggie had a nice season, but Burks had some huge 4th quarters for us. And a lot of it with drives to the hoop and contested mid range shots, which Bullock isn’t really capable of.

There’s a big difference towards passing out of a double team to a guy like Bullock, or to a guy like Fournier or Burks; Bullock is only capable of taking the wide open shot if it’s there when a good defense switches and closes out on him, if that particular shot is not open it becomes a wasted possession. Fournier and Burks can at least attack the closeout and create something out of it. We can’t underrate this particular skill set.

And DJ, you have to let it go. Seriously, dude. This is not a thread with two people on it.

well if it doesn’t happen again it’s worth it for me… but i let it go last time yet here we are… and here we were during the season at this dude’s mercy where he doesn’t even think he did anything wrong or even so much as acknowledged it…

i will take a mutual banning if it means this guy is gone… he could also change his behavior too but i doubt that will happen… so if neither happens i’m gonna cause the biggest stink ever until we get banned or he changes his behavior DRASTICALLY cause i cannot stand this guy’s attitude and i’d rather take one for the team than to have him harrass people everyday here…

so he can choose how he wants to proceed… i’m not lying down anymore given what has happened since the first time… so if you want it stop you should call for a change in his behavior or just call for a ban of both of us…

I figured after reporting the tweet first this morning and BC making a new thread we’d have some nice jovial fun. But after reading an hours worth of comments and heading to the end of the thread… Damn guys, stop beating up on each other so much. Take the win for a change.

**One Knick who has to be absolutely drooling over the prospect of playing with Kemba is Mitch Rob. A point guard who can penetrate and throw lobs – when was the last time we had a PG who could actually do that?**

Mitch is about to lead the league in pts scored. You heard it here first!

Also, having competent PGs may expose why Noel was available for $6M last year. You can’t drop passes if no one passes.

Hey KB community! Long time lurker, first time poster. Ready to talk all things Knicks!

I realize my timing may seem suspicious but I assure you guys I’m a die hard Knicks fan haha! Start watching in the 90s (and later educated myself on the 70s teams and Bernard King/Hubie Brown teams of the 80s) and have been living the orange and blue dream/nightmare since.

Looking forward to what should be an exciting season. Hope Kemba’s healthy cuz we got a nice squad if he is. Big fan of a lot of the posters here so looking forward to shooting the shit!

SoNiceWeShowItTwice: Looking forward to what should be an exciting season. Hope Kemba’s healthy cuz we got a nice squad if he is. Big fan of a lot of the posters here so looking forward to shooting the shit!

Welcome!

Welcome SoNice!

I feel pretty good right now, too. I’m not going to overlook fluffing the draft two seasons in a row, but I have to admit they put together a team I’m excited about now that we have Kemba.

Welcome SoNice and congratulations on wisely waiting out the Frank Ntilikina era!

I was talking with a friend earlier about how we should definitely win the Summer League. I mean we’ve got multiple dudes who have had good NBA playoffs performances and an Olympian (and Kevin Knox). Might have to smash those odds.

Welcome SoNice! 🙂
And this reminds me i’m not a rookie anymore, i gotta work on my game, i’m a sophomore now! 😀

They’re third because of the worry that Knox is going to spend too much time checking out the freshman chicks.

So nice, with a handle like that there’s no doubt you are a long time fan. Welcome

Alan, I definitely chuckled. Oft used reference but that was perfect.

SoNice, welcome!

I kind of liked Bullock also. I liked Burks too but his impact seemed a little lumpy. Reggie’s defense didn’t slump and I feel like he deserved more credit than he got maybe for last year’s performance.

One thing that I am very curious about is what our defense will look like next year. Fournier is not a good defender unless I have lost my vaunted ability to conduct an eye test. If Thibs can get a top 5 defense out of a team giving Evian and Kemba serious minutes I am going to be impressed.

Also, betting on Summer League is a level of degenerate that has my respect.

Hubert, as I said above, I would love to throw a few back with you.

My uberfeminist uberDemocrat wife has a sister who went full Trump…was even in DC for the 1/6 rally (didn’t breach the Capitol to my knowledge. They were peas and carrots growing up and all during my first 20 years of my relationship/marriage but now they don’t talk to each other. Yet if I start criticizing her sister, the knives come out…”What about your degenerate brother, sister, mother, father, etc.?”

Nearly all of us considered last year a kind of a miracle, given the expectations going into the season. Most of us were looking forward to the draft and the opening of free ageny for months, knowing we had 4 picks and oodles of cap space. Without getting to the leadup too much, from the time the trade of the 19th pick was announced to the time we found out that the contracts were all non-guaranteed in the last year, there was a nonstop barrage of negativity about the front office. Low point: this management team is as bad a Phil, Isiah, and the rest.

Honestly, I just don’t get the need for that. As a longtime passionate Knicks fan, who finally has some hope for this team after two decades of incompetence, and who knows more than most here what it feels like to root for a perrenial contender Knicks team, even a championship team, I have a lot of emotion invested in this team. So when the brass-bashing gets gratuitous and likely premature, it’s triggering, especially when it feels eerily familiar (which is why I posted last year’s post FA thread.)

As I’ve said, I’m fine with guarded pessimism. No one is expecting anyone to go all fanbois here. But I don’t see the need to trigger folks by spouting that more doom and gloom is to come based on what they did with a #19 and #33 pick, then you pile on before you even know the nature of the contracts handed out.When your posting suggest that being optimistic is foolish, the line between criticizing management and attacking posters becomes blurred.

Haven’t posted since our playoffs exit, but I read daily. So grateful to all the folks here for the deep dive draft analysis.

+1 also on the love for Bruno’s take on things. More more.

My priority is always to develop our young guys and suffer the extra losses as a result, so I’m nervous about IQ’s minutes in all the Kemba talk. But I heartily agree with the below, and I want to watch lobs all day long 😉

d-mar:
One Knick who has to be absolutely drooling over the prospect of playing with Kemba is Mitch Rob. A point guard who can penetrate and throw lobs – when was the last time we had a PG who could actually do that?

Well this was a fun thread to read.

New(ish) to KB, not new to Knick Fandom. I would like to take this moment to point out that no matter what happens with Rose and Kemba this season, we win.

If Thibs grinds them both into dust, either we swim with IQ /Vildoza/Deuce stepping up or we sink our way closer to Banchero.

We have some kids who might improve. We have all of our picks. We have the Mavs pick which is a Kristaps or Luka injury away from the promised land. We have an all NBA player and Kemba’s home.

We’ve come so far since the dark days of arguing about the merits of Anthony Randolph (I’ll never give up on you…) and Alexey Shved. Most of the discourse here is more intelligent than what I’ve found on Knicks reddit, twitter and other boards. I hope to continue to see debates where we can attack someone’s logic and/or premises without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

Shalom.

But I don’t see the need to trigger folks by spouting that more doom and gloom is to come based on what they did with a #19 and #33 pick, then you pile on before you even know the nature of the contracts handed out.

this is just unbelievable that you seem to believe that people can’t talk about this team in a certain way cause you don’t like the language… and you’re the sole arbiter of what’s the right and wrong way to talk about this team…

that is some true high and mighty bullshit… and the astounding part is that you keep believing that it is some rational explanation.. that you can’t help but react to all the doomers because they’re so wrong and they make you do all these things…

i have come across many a true asshole in my life.. and you sir may not top most of them.. but you’re hanging out in the same lounge….

djphan: this is just unbelievable that you seem to believe that people can’t talk about this team in a certain way cause you don’t like the language… and you’re the sole arbiter of what’s the right and wrong way to talk about this team…

that is some true high and mighty bullshit… and the astounding part is that you keep believing that it is some rational explanation.. that you can’t help but react to all the doomers because they’re so wrong and they make you do all these things…

i have come across many a true asshole in my life.. and you sir may not top most of them.. but you’re hanging out in the same lounge….

Lovely. I tried!

From a recent Athletic article here’s Evan Fournier on going to the Knicks:

Fournier left behind the Boston Celtics for the rival Knicks, even though he said re-signing with Boston “was my priority going into the summer” because they traded for him at the deadline last season. The Celtics did not want to dip into the luxury tax, and so they let him walk. Fournier said he wanted to play for Knicks coach Tom Thibodeau, and also,“I enjoy pressure, I enjoy the spotlight.

“They had a good season and they had a really good spot open. I thought I could help and yeah, God, it’s freaking New York,” Fournier said. “You want to be a part of something big, you want to have pressure, you want to be a guy that competes every night and I feel like New York was a great opportunity for me to live those moments.”

Welcome, SoNice and StarksGotEjected. A reference game on both your usernames. You are survivors just like all of us, to have endured this many years of the Knicks.

DudeInKnicksTown:
I’m glad that we seem to have a good relationship with OKC. They can help us a lot in the future.

I was reviewing our trade history with OKC and I guess Sam Presti really is the homie. There’s the Kemba buyout, the draft night trade with the 32nd for the 34th and 36th, and the Melo deal, which also netted us the pick that became Mitch.

I loved the AntRand trade at the time, for all the reasons Alan said.

Azubuike was a great 3&D guy. AntRand was going to be what Giannis is. Did we get Jeremy Tyler in that trade too or was that a different one? Ronny Turiaf was filler.

Next thing you know Azubuike retired for a heart condition. Randolph decided to be a 6’10” Nick Young, which isn’t impressive when you shoot more like me than like Nick Young. Turiaf is French, and only kind of sucked!!!

Does Turiaf top our French Knick power rankings pre-Fournier?

I like DeRozan, I just worry about his fit and that’s a lot of money to find out if it will work.

He’s probably best suited to be the primary ball handler when LaVine sits, but what a bench player!!

Maybe DeRozan has enough athleticism to make good cuts off the ball, idk

My real question is who plays defense? Even with Ball, Caruso, and Patrick Williams (I guess???) There’s a lot of flat out bad defenders.

Schemes can cover a lot of individual flaws and less pressure to score might help LaVine & DeRozan’s energy on defense. But Vucevic is not going to cleanup mistakes like Mitch or Noel.

They have so much talent I wouldn’t bet against them, but there’s a lot of issues with the team to work out in the 1yr they have to convince LaVine to stay. Of course, needing to convince LaVine to stay justifies a lot of their moves.

Bruno Almeida: I’m not as down on the Bulls as many people are, mostly because I think most people (and that includes me to a certain extent) have given up on watching the Spurs like 4 years ago. DeRozan has made a solid transition in those last couple of years into a more playmaking role, his assist numbers are all up without an increase in turnovers, and he’s still a solid .600 ish ts% guy despite the lack of a 3 point shot.

Considering their roster, if Patrick Williams develops nicely, they could end up with a scary lineup that has scoring threats in every position, obviously considering LaVine keeps up his great efficiency from this season and Lonzo remains decent from 3. Not a contender obviously, and the timeline of the team is awkward with DeRozan and Vucevic both being over 30, but they’ll certainly be better now. They still have Markkanen and Coby White to develop or trade too so their bench might be decent, I think they are a playoff team for sure.

In general I agree, but would say more of a play-in team. It’s hard to imagine them beating out any of MIL, BKN, PHI, ATL, NYK, BOS or MIA. They seem to be in a group with IND, TOR and maybe CHA for slots in the play in, although obviously its too early to tell anything beyond BKN being the early hype faves.

Just don’t respond to each other’s posts. It’s really not that hard. I ignore assholes on the internet all the time, every day.

They have so much talent I wouldn’t bet against them, but there’s a lot of issues with the team to work out in the 1yr they have to convince LaVine to stay. Of course, needing to convince LaVine to stay justifies a lot of their moves.

Lavine is already staying… all these moves were with the mind that he was getting extended.. he’s indicated as much in several public comments….

the bulls move were certainly interesting…. all the machinations of it’s a hodge podge roster and how are they going to play defense is all valid.. but they kind of created something out of almost nothing so you kind of have to give them credit for that… they gave up a ton in the vucevic deal (too much imo of course) and the other picks will hurt too.. but they have something kind of interesting to work with when they didn’t really have anything interesting going on and they were on the verge of starting over without Lavine..

they probably should have started over… but they didn’t… and so if they’re not.. this is kind of almost the next best step and they got some of the best free agents in tow. our strategy wasn’t too different except we were shopping at walmart instead of target.. we probably shouldn’t be loading up on vets.. but we did.. and so kemba represented the best thing in the refurbished aisle… hopefully it won’t break on us.. .

I ignore assholes on the internet all the time, every day.

quote of the day, and sure fire recipe for happy living…

geo: quote of the day, and sure fire recipe for happy living…

geo you continue to be the best!

TheOakmanCometh:
I hope Knox enjoys these summer league minutes because they’re likely to be his last of the 2021-22 season. With our depth, his Knick career is essentially over. I think even the rookies will play over him.

He’s probably out of the league in three years.

Knox turns 22 next week. I’m not ready to bury the NBA career of a kid that young, but agree that it is almost certain he’s not long for our roster. OTOH, there is a full G-League season this year and maybe he can put up decent enough stats down there to become at least a neutral trade piece.

Count de Pennies: that showed a man typing away at a keyboard while his clearly annoyed wife looks on from the bedroom. The caption read something like “I can’t come to bed yet. Someone just said something wrong on the internet.”

I know what cartoon you’re referring to, it’s from XKCD

Ronny Turiaf was the coolest dude in the NBA. I think he was the last knick that I truly loved.

@ Doug

Yep, that’s the one. Thanks! Although I mis-remembered the details and source, at least I got the essence of it right. I propose that cartoon be posted here at the outbreak of the next protracted pissing match.

Hi Geo, we are all rooting for you

awwww, thanks KfniNJ…I’m fine, shoot, one thing i’m fairly certain of is that no one gets a free ride through life…

geo:

too many days in a row though on that xanax stuff starts to zombify me…

getting better though at recognizing what triggers that reaction in me… doesn’t stop it from happening, but, at least now I’m able to figure out how it gets going…

Hi Geo.
I had a full, hard bout with depression many years ago, and then a little skirmish (or more a deep dive in melancholy) with it later.
Depression is a subtle, slimy, son of a bitch.
I totally get the Xanax feeling, I remember it way too well.
But the moment you recognize that you’re zombifying and you start to identify the triggers that pull you down,
those are the moment you start beating that SOB.
Just don’t give up brother, you’re too good and you’re gonna kick that SOB ass.

I have had a hard battle with anxiety going on for years now. It has reared its head hard the past couple months. It gets to the point sometimes where I can’t leave the house or have to stop what I’m doing and leave where I am. It makes anything that’s stressful pretty much impossible to do. The worst part is I know it’s all in my head but I can’t make it go away completely. Meditation has helped a lot in dealing with it.

Good luck with your situation Geo.

Renaldo Balkman is in my Can’t Quit Him HOF, although strangling someone on a court in the Philippines was a ding on his value. I loved watching him play.

I can’t believe the US had to rally from a 15 point deficit to win but good for them. Jrue was a useful addition to the Olympic team also it seems.

whoa! Randle extension. 4 years, $117mm. Get the new thread up.

WOW

Randle takes the extension that we were all hoping he would. Leon Rose is a FREAKING JEDI MASTER.

YOU GUYS.

Here are the details on the Randle extension, per Woj. It is an utterly reasonable figure, even if he regresses a bit this season, owing both to the team having more ballhandlers and to the odds of some of those circus shots not going in.

Now how does everybody feel about the offseason?

4YR/117M

less than 30 per, that’s exactly what we’re waiting for once the inevitabilty of re-signing him become clear.

Including this year is a 5YR/140 M contract, 28 per.

With all his flaws I file this under the “good news” column.

RANDLEEEEEEEEE, what a great guy! 🙂
Now the offseason gets an A plus, congrats to Leon and all the FO. This will make our life much easier to get to 2023 with a lot of flexibility.

Per Macri — Randle is now the 39th highest played player by AAV in the NBA. Oh yeah, he was also all-NBA 2nd team last year (ie. top 10-ish player). Even if he regresses to a top 25 player, that is still an absolute steal.

Seriously – there’s been so much back and forth on the margins (I would classify the 19th pick fiasco as a margin fiasco). But this is an A++ offseason so far.

Randle undermarket extension
Kemba Walker falls in our lap
Upgrade wing offense with Fournier
Bring back key components of our unexpected run last year (Burks/Noel/Rose).
Maintain future flexibility
Add more draft picks

Just unreal. I can’t believe this is my team.

OMG the skittles rain keeps falling!

Fournier having a good second half for France. Luka magic may finally have run out, hard to win with Zoran Dragic as your second best player.

Geo, you’re an absolute gem to this board, and much more importantly, seem like a stellar godfather to some young guns. It sounds like you’re navigating the situation as well as one possibly could. Keep at it, you deserve to be happy.

Was doing some internet research on Kemba’s knee and came across a Boston article on the Fournier dealings (don’t know how to post a link but it is on nesn.com written by Logan Mullen) that points to it being even worse in that when they traded for him, they dipped into the Hayward trade exemption. If they had kept the exemption intact they could have converted it into Horford’s and then Kemba’s salary. So, for example, they could make an offer for Beal without having to return $30mil of contracts to Wash.

Not the biggest thing in the world but anything that dings Boston makes me happy for some irrational reason.

BernieEarnie: Not the biggest thing in the world but anything that dings Boston makes me happy for some irrational reason.

I feel the same way.

by the way – if you listen to the KFS podcast, Jeremy Cohen says he had heard from multiple sources Tuesday night that something was happening with Kemba Walker and the Knicks. In that light, it seems likely they had already been working on this by the time FA opened on Monday – highly doubt this all happened suddenly on Tuesday and then the sources ran to Jeremy Cohen breathlessly. The Kendrick Nunn “I took less $ to go to the Lakers” looks a little like agent-speak in retrospect. Possible they had loosely talked contract, but most likely scenario = he got similar offers around non taxpayer MLE, and agent put out the “I took less $ to go to a winner” to make it look like his market was hotter than it was…

It is amazing that he’s trying to make it about his scoreboard again for the second day in a row. But I’mma follow Bruno’s lead and not take the bait. Enjoy.

Frank: man I would hate to be your kid Hubert lol

Kid: “Dad, I got a 98 on my test!”

Hubert: *grumble grumble where are the other 2 points grumble grumble*

That’s exactly my dad.
I was 16 but I still remember, after a close road victory against a strong team: “So, only 25 points today, is there something wrong?”

🙂

Hubert:
It is amazing that he’s trying to make it about his scoreboard again for the second day in a row. But I’mma follow Bruno’s lead and not take the bait. Enjoy.

Honestly, I meant that as a serious post. I was curious what your interpretation of blessings was. Certainly not trying to inflame anything, sorry if you interpreted my post that way.

And I am not suggesting that this team is a finished product, only that the plan seems to be on track. There’s still lots of future assets to burn (no pun intended) and lots of flexibility. Meaning there is still room to fuck this up short of attaining true contender status. And your 8/10 is more than fair, I don’t know if I would have rated it that high.

we speculated about randle taking the extension much in the offseason and i thought there was a very good shot of him taking it…. seems like lavine was also taking the extension too… it was a lot of money to turn down merely to try and repeat an all-nba season which was going to be hard if some injuries heal up… but also some 3pt shooting regressing would have made it seem really really bad…

i wouldn’t really credit rose for this… randle signing is entirely his decision just like it is for any other player and he took the conservative route…. it makes planning the 2023 offseason a little easier knowing we dont’ have a megamax to deal with tho…

The end of Slovenia v. France was a wild French win. Slovenia was trailing by one point with 15 seconds left. Doncic got the ball at mid court, guarded by Batum. Doncic put Gobert in the pick & roll on the left side. Gobert blitzed. The center dove to the rim and Propelic popped up above the arc on the weak side. Doncic passed to Propelic. Batum switched onto Propelic. Propelic had a step on Batum and drove the lane. Batum recovered to BLOCK Propelic’s scoop layup to end the game.

It was as if Slovenia ran the play that Norman Dale called at the end of Hoosiers, instead of just having Jimmy Chitwood shoot it.

cybersoze:
I don’t think i’ve said this before, so… Welcome StarksGotEjected! 😉
You and SoNiceWeShowItTwice are the only 2021 KB rookies until now, or there’s more? Every member that signed-up only this year, please come forward. 🙂
Last year guys didn’t choose the ROY because i would’ve won it easily without a doubt. That, and i’m always right. Two indisputable truths of KB. LOLOL

Thank you, sir. I hope to bring hard nosed defense and 6 hard fouls for the 17 minutes I’m on the floor every night.