2020-21 Game Thread: Knicks @ Kings

quick quick

Kill the Kiiiiiiiings!!!!!
(R.J.Dio)

Very nice loss for the Nets sans Durant,
Detroit and Minnesota will be hard to outtank.

Let’s go Knicks!

How is it possible that DeMarcus Cousins shot 2-16 for 5 points with 5 turnovers as well?

Also, how is it possible that Anthony Edwards has a -8.9 BPM this year across 325, about to sink even lower from his oh-fer performance tonight?

First time I’ve seen De’A-A-RON with short hair!

Who’s hardest to watch: Embiid, Harden or Trae Young?

Yeah but the endless parades to the foul line……

I guess we lose 2-0

Very solid Mitching. Subtle, delicate, and then the block

I feel like I am watching a Paul Westphal defense

Any time Bullock takes a shot off the dribble I’d bench him.

Let’s hope Invisible Sixth Man only tweaked his ankle and will be back soon.

Mitch out with injury it seems

I would really like a Mitch update, they just didn’t show him at all

Owen:
Mitch out with injury it seems

Oh, no bueno.

Nice tribute to Hank from Walt, who grew up in Atlanta.

RIP

Anyone see the Suns’ alt unis? Yeesh!

Burks!

Sweet pull-up by Hali

I think the Celtics could use Richaun Holmes

The Kevin Martin vibe I am getting from Tyrese watching him play in Sactown is quite strong.

That guy was great in fantasy for a few years

Knox putting up rox

I think you mean, very savvy Kuickley assist. (kobe assist)

Mike Honcho:
Elfrid should bring back his Magic hairdo just so I can distinguish him from Barrett. I genuinely thought RJ had hit that 3 for a bit and was immeasurably disappointed when the box score aggressively body-checked my illusion.

RJ did hit the corner 3. Payton did not. The box score confirms it.

Obi showing some flashes

Obi very active thriving in the game trash.

Haliburton 🙁

Tyrese’s IQ is off the charts.

Toppin is a Boppin!

Quickley with some excellent defense

Alright, Mitch is back

BigBlueAL:
Obi may never be a 20ppg scorer but if he sticks to the shots he’s been taking since coming back from his injury looks like he’ll be a very solid, efficient player.

that and not blatantly pushing off on his post spin moves…

Good foul on Begley

This game has no juice

Randle is very tough to guard, you almost to have to always double team him and take your chances

Still cannot believe Bagley got picked over Doncic. He looks so bad. What a kick in the pants for Kings fans!

Payton is back… and it shows

i was about to write something nice about how good RJ’s rebounding is. He gets a ton of high value boards.

And then he throws the ball to Halliburton.

Tyrese looks pretty pretty pretty good.

Halliburton is a terror.

Didn’t like that call on Randle

Clyde’s little murmur on bricked 3 pointers – priceless

This team is too small to stop Mitch

My goodness, Halliburton appears to be the exact type of player I thought Lonzo Ball would be.

And Lonzo Ball was one of my great draft crushes.

We could’ve had him and passed.

Unforgivable.

Richaun Holmes is a pretty nice player but the rest of Sactos front court is garbage

Burks, Quickley, Knox, Bullock and Payton combined: 5-25…

Halliburton terrific: +/- -9
Quickley decent: +/- +10
Hooray for +/-!

Yeh, the whole argument that Edwards was bad at Georgia because the rest of his teammates were terrible isnt aging well.

Quickley with twice as many blocks as anyone else on the Knicks…

On League Pass instead of commercials they just showed Knicks shooting around before the 3rd quarter and I kid you not Payton missed every single jumper he took while everyone else was basically making all their shots lol.

man randle is taking it to bagley….

Mitch needs to put up strength, in the hands at least…

I’m still disappointed with the referees…

RJ looked great on that face-up J with the clock running down.

SAC sniffs a possible win.

d-mar:
Ok it really is time for serious questionsabout Anthony Edwards, 2-12 tonight, continuing a truly hideous rookie season

I dropped his ass two weeks ago in my fantasy league. He’s looking like a bust already.

damn, that was a good shot by buddy

This is looking like a tired team…

Its nice to dream of how much better Randle/RJ/Mitch will look with a PG who can shoot.

Love it when Elfrid Payton is taking long 2s at the end of the shot clock

The Infamous Cdiggy:
If Bullock isn’t gonna pull from 3 then he really doesn’t need to be out there.

Agreed.

Thank God Payton has 5 fouls, hopefully he’s done for the night.

we look tired…no three point shooting threat will do that

Time to win this game Quickley.

I was told Burks will net us a 1st rd pick at the trade deadline…

why didn’t we select Hali again?

We can’t buy a three to save the world from an asteroid…

Shades of the Toronto game i.e. outside shooting now.

Except these Kings aren’t as good as the Raps, so the Knicks need to grind out the quarter w/out going down to double-digits.

Man, when Quickley and Burks start missing FTs it doesn’t look good…

THE OBI ASSIST

The starting unit was a total offensive drag in thr 3rd. We ended the quarter with less than 75 points. And, again, it’s because our spacing is trash.

Obi not able to post much smaller guys is a problem

OMG Toppin, you’re not at Dayton anymore…

The hell??? I’m grateful, but why didn’t Hield take that 3???

You would never know by tonight that the Kings were the worst defensive team in the league

Wish we had a point guard

Too many players shooting blanks, we’re 3-18 on threes,
Burks is 2-11, Bullock 0-fer, Payton is Payton…

How could they not whistle on IQ? Fuck the refs!

The invisible sixth man got lazy after we signed him to an extension

randle like a man possessed

I almost can’t believe we can still pull this one out.

Another all-star performance by Randle

Payton is just there for defense, even though he he’s an asshair from fouling out.

I’m getting a lil tired of this Haliburton kid…

Not only has he been a pain, he’s scored 1-on-1 vs Knox twice.

hali is like all the francophiles dream come true….

Must be nice to play D when you don’t have to worry about outside shooting beating you…

we’d be good with a real pg

HALI

Lol we picked Obi over Halliburton…..good lord

Halliburton with the dagger in the game and my heart

He would have thrived with Thibs

The shot selection the past 3 possessions have been absolute torture to watch.

Pure ass.

Can we trade Obi, Knox and Frank for Halliburton?

We fucked up four consecutive clutch possessions because our PG can’t shoot and the other team double up the other players…

DRed:
we were due to lose a game because we couldn’t hit 3s

The funny thing is that a better team definitely would’ve made us go nite-nite by the 4th. We got within 2, and had the Kings not remembered that they only have to guard the Knicks inside the arc and paint, we could’ve stolen this one.

This game did have a bit of backtobackitis to it…

mase: id throw in a second as well

Honestly I’d throw in a first.

Mike Honcho:
Can we trade Obi, Knox and Frank for Halliburton?

What sucks is that you can clearly say that Halliburton kept the Knicks from tying the game and was most clutch.

I’d put together a package for Fox. Halliburton is going to make him redundant.

it could be worse… we could’ve picked bagley over doncic….

At times it looked like Randle was the best player on the floor, but he didn’t have the outside shooting around him to make the Kings pay for doubling him late.

Randle seemed to will us back into it in the fourth. Frustrating loss that showed how truly thin this roster can be, but I’ll take 1-1 on a west coast back-to-back. IQ wasn’t exactly lighting it up but Payton looked listless – looking forward to getting more guards back

The back-to-back effect was there, they crawled in the second half.

Alas, it was a winnable game, but you can’t win when Payton, Burks, Bullock, Knox and Quickley shot a combined 11-44, no team could win with that.

Do we consider the other team lucky when we shot 5-22 (22,7%) on threes or luck only applies to us?

Randle with another good game, I love the way he bullied Bagley, and so did Barrett (6th in a row), a little unlucky on a couple of shots that rimmed out.

Mitch need to get better with his hands (and learn to shoot FTs), he was stripped too many times tonight, Holmes gave him troubles all night but all the defense (DefReb in particular) suffers when is out, Noel is a good rim protector but an inferior all-around defender.

Defense was good and the effort was there, but offense could be a real problem, our starting five has terrible spacing and desperately lacks shooting.

We already know we fucked up the lottery pick, Hali’s play tonight rub it in our faces…

I’d still rather have a so-so Quickley that a listless Payton, but Thibs continue to piss me off on that.

Next stop Portland, without McCollum and Nurkic, I’m eager to watch Payton show his “stellar defense” on Dame…

rj was impressive again…. that midrange game is starting to look nba viable…. and his 3s are starting to fall now…. this could be all coming together for him and it’s pretty visible … the only thing really missing in all this is the steals/blocks but that can be really volatile as 3s as they can come in bunches so not terribly worried….

it’s pretty clear that this team is randle.. mitch and now rj…. and if we get someone else contributing we look pretty good… but if we don’t… we look pretty terrible… and if anyone of rj or randle plays bad it’s a bad time….

gonna be an interesting offseason no matter what….

why didn’t we select Hali again?

His agent wasn’t our team president’s son

ouch.

We really need to upgrade the 1 and 3 spots. Looking at the box score and Bullock and Payton’s shooting stats makes that pretty obvious, and then watching Elfrid Payton try to work in the midrange on the second night of a back-to-back felt like actual punishment. I really wanted that win last night; De’Aaron Fox loves to troll the Knicks on Twitter and I wanted so badly for the Knicks to remind him that he’s a loser on a team that passed on Luka Doncic primarily because he was on the roster. Watching him smile at the end of the game upset me.

RJ Barrett is continuing his strong play on both ends of the court, but last night Sacramento feasted on his cross-court passes so he’s got to cut those out. Other than the turnovers he played another excellent game and he has a decent shot of turning on another good one against a bad Portland defense. Like djphan said, Randle, Robinson, and RJ are this team’s bedrock this season and they’re a good bet to be competitive against anybody once they maintain their play and one other guy on the roster plays a good game.

The Bulls are playing well this season, but I do wonder what it would cost to land Zach LaVine in a trade. He’s playing the best basketball of his life right now, but his contract expires after next season and I wonder if Karnisovas would rather flip him than extend him for a load of money.

Wow, Atlanta has the 7th rated defense in the NBA. Did not see that coming.

Clint Capela has been on fire recently

Huge day for NCAA prospects. Sharife Cooper on ESPN2 now, followed by Cade, Scottie Barnes, Jalen Johnson, Ziaire Williams, Jaden Springer/Keon Johnson, and Suggs just off the top of my head.

I agree with Max on flipping Burks and Bullock. Problem is minutes…where are the minutes for Frank and Rivers going to come from, plus Obi needs to play more. Randle and RJ need to be cut back, but after that….either Knox gets benched, or Tibs has the guts to bench Payton or Bullock. I’d be fine with Rivers getting extended minutes at PG, at least he can shoot and take the pressure off the spacing.

It is kinda fun to have these sort of problems and not totally suck though.

Thibs needs the full healthy roster (almost there assuming Frank is irrevelant) and another 15-20 games…then… if it was the case that there was a decision was to be made to tank/develop/evaluate or scratch and claw for wins…I think he sets a rotation for the second half…

Pretty obvious he is going for scratch and claw…but maybe that doesn’t change things if he is fair and just plays the best guys and those also happen to be the youngsters/nonmercs….but if in his eyes mercs under scratch/claw approach give even an incremental increase in win probability…he will go there..

Frank is going to have an uphill climb to get back in the rotation.

Rivers might make it over Bullock if Bullock doesn’t pick up his offense. Of course Thibs only has eyes for defense and Bullock is our best wing defender.

I mean the only case you can make against Hali to the Knicks is that he might, MIGHT, be better off as a two who’s a great secondary playmaker. I read reports that said he struggled to run the pnr. But that’s no case at all- RJ obviously looks better suited to play three anyway and I highly doubt they see Frank as their future two. My guess is that they were pretty sure Randle would be gone next year so taking a four to pair with RJ seemed smart. But it wasn’t.

I’m really hoping on Luka getting a high ankle sprain soon. I’d probably be better off wishing for a knee injury to KP though…

It’s rainy season time here in SoCal. 55° here in LA and I’m in my backyard rocking PJs and a Giants hoodie while smoking hot links on the grill.

I miss things about NY, but the cold ain’t one of em.

Knox needs to get on the ball a bit. The entire team seemed out of whack on offense in the 2nd half, but that was a game where his shooting could’ve given the team the spark it needed. Plus you cannot let a rook score on you twice like Hali did.

This is the first coaching staff that actually has a blueprint for him to become a productive player. There can be a need for him in this team moving forward – nights like this one needs to become less frequent.

Maybe that’s asking too much. But at least this year is the first where you can see a way for him to be not terrible.

And Knox, a thing that I (and maybe others) tend to forget, he’s signed for next year,
so it makes sense to play him a little more or to trade him.

I’m curious to watch the roster and the rotations after the trade deadline (still incredibly far away).

Does my memory fail me or Payton has a no trade clause by rules?

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
It will never not piss me off that the reductive facile dummies like us would draft significantly better than the guys actually making millions to run actual organizations

I was thinking about that and I went to check Shai Gilgeous-Alexander’s stats, my favorite pick at that draft together with Mikal Bridges and… pain. Hell even Miles Bridges is performing decently, the next 3 picks after Knox…

Shai has a .613 ts% and a 3.1 BPM playing in that dreadful purposefully tanking OKC team as the only scoring threat on the floor for long stretches, and now Lu Dort is looking like a real damn good player and not just a defensive specialist. I gave a lot of shit to Presti for his shortcomings and being a media darling but damn, OKC is in year 1 of their rebuild and they’re already far ahead of us, and will have tons of picks other teams will tank for them. What a brilliant turnaround.

Owen:
I can recall people saying they didn’t want Presti as GM.

I was one of those, for real… I do think he never quite found the way to surrounded stars with the right pieces, the type of stuff Riley did so well for example, but I can’t deny his ability to build teams from so many different situations

If you assume (and you’re likely correct) that Toronto and Miami pass the Knicks, then already you’re looking at the #9 seed as the peak possibility. I think they have as good a shot as any of the other teams going for the #9 seed. A Magic team filled with injuries and an overachieving Chicago and Cleveland? Plus whatever Charlotte is?

Question: If Randle finishes the season this way obviously you pick up his option just to shop him if nothing else. Unless Kawhi becomes available I don’t think there’s anybody who’s going to cost you so much that Randle’s 20m is going to kill you. The question is this- would you even consider offering a three year extension at something that winds up well short of his max- I doubt he’d take 3/75 but maybe 3/85? I’m saying no but part of that is because I don’t think he stays at this level but if he does maybe it’d seem less foolhardy?

nicos:
Oh forget it- since he’ll be a 7-9 guy after next year Randle’s max will start at 32,700m in 2022/23. He ain’t going to extend cheap.

you think somebody is goin gto give him 32 million a yr?

I’m pretty sure Randle will get at least 20 million a year offers with the way he’s playing, there’s no way a desperate team for talent doesn’t do it. But the market is really weird for players of his profile and it’s going to be affected heavily by the covid seasons for some time, so maybe, who knows, he falls to a more manageable figure and we keep him. If he keeps this level of play I wouldn’t be against resigning him at all.

Houston beating Dallas without Wood and Oladipo is ____________________

Although Dallas is missing a bunch of guys

I find myself rooting for Boogie these days….he’s been through a lot and it’s a good situation for him.

Z-man:
I find myself rooting for Boogie these days….he’s been through a lot and it’s a good situation for him.

Yeah, he fell so hard with those horrific injuries in the very worst possible points of his career, it’s nice to see a good moment for him.

nicos:
My thinking about Boogie is annoyingly circular- I think what happened to him is awful and feel sorry for him. But of course it’s tough to feel too sorry for a guy who has made almost 90m. More than that though- he made that 90m while being completely, unrepentantly Boogie- I don’t think he changed too much, he just got better. The dude did exactly what he wanted to do come hell or high water for 6 years and made a couple of all-star teams and close to 100m. I can’t feel sorry for him but what he went through really did suck so I guess I do still feel sorry for him. And repeat.

Oh for sure. I generally comment on this with with idea of “I feel as bad for him as I can feel for someone infinitely richer than I am”, because he’s set for life if he never played again. But there’s an aspect of passion that also moves me a bit at least, like the guy could have and maybe should have retired, but he’s still out there on minimum contracts trying to get back.

Dallas: as inconstant as a team could be, good loss.

They’ve been experimenting with various lineups because Kleeber and Powell have been out. Last night they also gave KP a rest night.

It has been an interesting period. They tried playing WCS at C and KP at PF. That looked terrible to me because they lost the spacing advantage that KP gives to Doncic. They’ve been playing Brunson (who imo is very underrated) and Doncic together which is kind of interesting, but not necessarily ideal because
Doncic would try to dominate the ball on the same court wit Kyrie and Harden. lol If they ever get healthy and get everyone off Covid protocol they are going to be very good.

The more I see of Doncic though, the less I like him. He’s an absolute magician getting to the basket and finishing. He also passed really well. But he’s a bit of a stat stuffer and does not play a winning brand of basketball. He tries to do way too much even when he has weapons all around him.

Agree 100% on Brunson, I’m still surprised he went after Wagner, Spellman, Evans, Musa, Grayson Allen, Simons et all in his draft class…

Leave it to strat to explain a player’s underperformance as a 27% 3PT shooter on 7 attempts a game as “stat stuffing.” Like, dude, the answer is right there for you. It’s right there.

I think that sounds ok. I like Harden better as a comp for sure because Luka doesn’t defend much.

He is his own thing though. Still growing as a player. And not a Knick unfortunately.

Luka is 21. Harden was coming off the bench when he was 21, he wasn’t Luka good until he was like 24/25. Luka’s big flaw right now is he can’t shoot 3s, or at least he hasn’t shot well from 3 this season. He’s taking a lot of 3s for a guy hitting sub 30%. The rest of his career suggests his 3 point percentage is going to go up though. Considering his age he’s a phenomenal player.

DRed:
Luka is 21.Harden was coming off the bench when he was 21, he wasn’t Luka good until he was like 24/25.Luka’s big flaw right now is he can’t shoot 3s, or at least he hasn’t shot well from 3 this season.He’s taking a lot of 3s for a guy hitting sub 30%.The rest of his career suggests his 3 point percentage is going to go up though.Considering his age he’s a phenomenal player.

All this is true, but Harden was woefully undervalued and misused in OKC. He went to Houston and immediately became a world-class #1 scoring option; then D’Antoni turned him into a PG and he didn’t miss a beat.

Doncic came into the league in the role he was best suited for and was given carte blanche over the Mavs. He didn’t have to languish in a sixth man role behind KD and Westbrook.

The funny thing about Harden is that he “presents” as a great 3pt shooter, but is only 36% for his career…i.e a league average shooter! It’s the FTr and FT% that makes him MVP-level elite. Doncic is a better rebounder and passer than Harden was already, and actually better from 2, but there’s more to the offensive gap than just 3pt shooting.

Ultimately I think Doncic will be a better all-around player than prime Harden, but probably not by much.

It feels like Dallas is also either going to barely make the playoffs or barely miss it. So we could have two picks in the top 18. Plus two second rounders. So while I get that people are gonna bitch about not having a top lottery pick, the extra first round pick and the two second round picks could allow us to trade up. While I’d love a top lottery pick I also feel like we’re still at a point where adding two first rounders could be good for us to deepen our talent pool. We seem to do well drafting later in the first round anyways.

Z-Man, you know I’m the last person on Earth to view a Knicks transaction irrationally positively and I honestly think you’re overrating Porzingis.

He’s injury prone for sure, but when he’s healthy, he scores efficiently enough, rebounds well (that was a knock on him…not any more) and blocks shots with the best of them.

After five seasons, this is still more of a projection than anything else. He has never scored at league average efficiency. His career-high TS+ is 99. If you’re saying he’s a “low-level superstar” I don’t understand how that’s enough.

If it improves, then sure this calculation changes. Right now I think BPM etc. are correct in pegging him as well-above average but short well short of superstar status.

It wasn’t dumb to trade him under the circumstances. Jackson, Mills and Dolan created a horrible situation and KP was right for wanting out. But they took the first offer rather than showing some patience and got fleeced. Bashing KP by underestimating who he is and will be doesn’t change that.

This gets stated as fact a lot without much in the way of evidence. It’s worth noting there was a pretty significant time crunch–the deadline was coming up and then Porzingis was going to be an RFA, at which point he could’ve made the Knicks’ lives very difficult if he was so inclined.

When the dust settled we got two first rounders, and I maintain that the salary dumps gave us the opportunity to get two more. We didn’t, but that’s a separate issue. Even if you limit the package to two first rounders, without looking I’d say historically that’s not a bad haul for a ~2 BPM guy.

It feels like Dallas is also either going to barely make the playoffs or barely miss it. So we could have two picks in the top 18. Plus two second rounders. So while I get that people are gonna bitch about not having a top lottery pick, the extra first round pick and the two second round picks could allow us to trade up. While I’d love a top lottery pick I also feel like we’re still at a point where adding two first rounders could be good for us to deepen our talent pool. We seem to do well drafting later in the first round anyways.

Building a contending NBA team is hard but there’s one element of it that is fairly straight forward: you need a dude, and preferably more than one. There’s no easy way to look this up but I’m fairly sure if you looked at, say, every team in the finals over the last 20 years or so they’d almost all have at least one player who was a consistent 5+ BPM guy, and a lot of them had more than that (both in terms of quantity and quality i.e. the BPM was higher).

The point I’m trying to make is that if you don’t think it’s all that important to pick high in the draft, you’re going to need to articulate a blueprint to getting a dude by other means. I don’t need a history lesson on all the dudes picked late in the draft, and I’ve been very clear as to where I stand on pick accumulation, the value of late picks, etc., but “hope we find the next Jimmy Butler” is not a blueprint that inspires confidence.

Z-man:
lol the knee-jerk Porzingis bashing is so petty (not you, Max, just in general.) He’s a very good player in his own right, on his way to being a low-level superstar….

… The sour grapes on him are comically misguided.

I agree KP is a good player, he complements Luka well, he could develop into a B-Level star and it looks like he’s changing his game a bit to use that 7-3′ more. I’ve always found his draft-day criticism pathetic. I don’t know if he will ever fully overcame his anemia problems.

I understand your criticism about sour grapes bashing and the reason of it, but I want to clear my position.

I jumped off the KP’s train since his infamous skipped end-of-the-season meeting with PJ, months before his trade.
He could have had reasons to be unhappy,
but in in my world first you show that you are a player that can carry a team and raise his teammates (KP never did) and after that maybe you are entitled to publicly show your unhappiness.

Also, I could think that Phil was the worst GM in history, but he has more rings than KP has fingers and stronger NY roots, so when a legend ask to talk with you, 21 year old wannabe, you go to the meeting, politely and respectfully hear his speech, politely and respectfully air your grievances, thank him for his time, go home and decide what you want to do.

His behaviour was disrespectful and unnecessary and made me sour on him and his antics.

Yes, he has all the tools to be a great player and his trade was mismanaged.

But he has never shown he could be a first option on a good team, he’s soft as the Stay Puft marshmallow from Ghostbuster, he’s a whiner, he’s easy to intimidate (Marcus Smart anyone?), overpaid, often injured.

At the end, I’m happy he’s not a Knick and I don’t want him back.

If this makes me a knee-jerker so be it, mine are jerking, KP’s are shaking 🙂

Max, I agree. I was totally in on KP at first and soured on him for the reasons that you mentioned. He turned into an arrogant primadonna without the resume to back it up, and I was fine with the idea of trading him long before it happened. In fact, I said as much when it was rumored that he would be traded to the Celts for picks and one of Tatum or Brown.

I am merely saying that a) he’s not nearly as overrated as some here suggest, b) we should have gotten more for him than we did, and didn’t because Mills et. al. jumped on the first shiny object that appeared on the misguided premise that it was a lock they were acquiring KD and another star. It was a bad deal, and belittling who KP is doesn’t make it any better.

thenoblefacehumper: Yes, if Porzingis gets better I will think of him differently.

He has gotten better. Are you not comparing his Knicks stats from age 20-22 to his Dallas stats? He has improved by every metric, and when healthy, puts up all-star numbers. And he’s only 25 years old. You should start thinking of him differently.

thenoblefacehumper: You didn’t address my point–what historical analogue suggests the haul was bad? Let’s say he’s a 3 BPM guy (at the time of the trade his career figure was 0.9 and his career high as of now is 1.9), do those guys normally go for more?

Jrue Holiday, a guy with zero upside, just went for way more than that. That said, it’s about perceived value, not actual value. KP is a hyped player. You cash in on the hype. We didn’t do that.

thenoblefacehumper: Do you have any reason to believe they didn’t shop the offer? I mean, this would seem to contradict that.

lol, this actually makes my point! There was plenty of interest, why not shop around and force Cuban to up his offer, or take an offer from another tea? Maybe drop the protection on the 2023 pick, or offer a better player than DSjr?

Since we’re on the topic, anyone track what happened with KP’s rape case? Just cuz, you know, Damyean Dotson has incurred some serious hate here for his past behavior. And since we’re using descriptors such as ‘prima donna’ I just wonder if there are some others we might include.

Are you not comparing his Knicks stats from age 20-22 to his Dallas stats?

I mean, every number I have cited is accurate. Yes, he has gotten better. He still hasn’t posted a league average TS% over a single season. He still hasn’t put up a BPM of 2+. I’m willing to buy that BPM sells him short because of his defense, but whatever arbitrary boost you want to give him hardly gets him to superstar status.

Jrue Holiday, a guy with zero upside, just went for way more than that.

Another way of saying “zero upside” is “no projection required.” Jrue Holiday had actually put up the numbers the Bucks were seeking when they made the trade. It’s bizarre to write off the fact that Porzingis has not done this as some minor detail that shouldn’t alter one’s view of the trade!

What trade involving a player of Porzingis’ actual caliber, as it exists in reality at the moment, suggests the return was bad?

lol, this actually makes my point! There was plenty of interest, why not shop around and force Cuban to up his offer, or take an offer from another tea? Maybe drop the protection on the 2023 pick, or offer a better player than DSjr?

I continue to not understand the insistence that this did not take place in some form, but regardless the trade saga dragging on could just as easily have reduced the package as it became increasingly clear that Porzingis was not returning to the Knicks. It’s impossible to say either way, so the package should just be evaluated in a vacuum.

Early Bird: One of my posts from the other day goes through what it takes to be a top 30 player in the league by BPM, unless you’re a PG you need a TS% of .580 at the minimum. Porzingis has never hit that number in a full season (he has through a whopping 6 games this year).

Actually, he has posted that TS% for his last consecutive half-season or so coming off of an ACL tear. But that aside, I disagree with the premise that he’s pretty much done improving, mainly because he’s been injured for much of the past 3 years and because he came into the league as a string bean with a high center of gravity. Let’s not forget that the same folks dismissive of him now had prematurely concluded that he would likely be a Bargnani-level rebounder going forward. How’s that prediction working out?

Actually, he has posted that TS% for his last consecutive half-season or so coming off of an ACL tear. But that aside, I disagree with the premise that he’s pretty much done improving, mainly because he’s been injured for much of the past 3 years

You continue to answer your own questions regarding the return…

Z-man: Actually, he has posted that TS% for his last consecutive half-season or so coming off of an ACL tear. But that aside, I disagree with the premise that he’s pretty much done improving, mainly because he’s been injured for much of the past 3 years and because he came into the league as a string bean with a high center of gravity. Let’s not forget that the same folks dismissive of him now had prematurely concluded that he would likely be a Bargnani-level rebounder going forward. How’s that prediction working out?

15 games is not a half season. Most people here really doubt he can sustain that level without significant time off, e.g., Mr November syndrome, the forced break because of Covid, etc.

More to the point, he put up a .570 TS% through the first 20 games of his last season with the Knicks. So yes, he’s done this before prior to turning back into a pumpkin.

I have no idea why we should assume he’s going to get injured less often as he gets older or why we should assume his peak is later when he presumably has done little training while injured. That’s a lot of missed time he could be practicing in the post, building strength, or shooting 3s.

Maybe he’s turns it around, but I’m guessing he gets injured again before the end of the season.

Early Bird:
There’s nothing quite like demanding a max contract when (1) never having put up a great season; (2) never being healthy a full season; and (3) missing the entire preceding year to deflate trade value.

I really doubt many offices were willing to put up much for the right to pay $30M for 5 years.

We’ll never know because the deal was made before we could find out. But sure, if you want to believe that the braintrust that masterminded the Lee and THjr deals outsmarted the Shark who traded up to snag Luca, go right ahead!

Z-man: We’ll never know because the deal was made before we could find out. But sure, if you want to believe that the braintrust that masterminded the Lee and THjr deals outsmarted the Shark who traded up to snag Luca, go right ahead!

Okay, but would you pay more for a FA or a player under contract?

And would you pay more for a player who is going to miss the next year or more for a player who is healthy?

We don’t need to know the other offers on the table to know his value was driven down. If the Knicks didn’t want to pay KP $30M for the next 5 years, they needed to trade him because we do know that Dallas would offer him that deal.

The funny thing about Harden is that he “presents” as a great 3pt shooter, but is only 36% for his career…i.e a league average shooter! It’s the FTr and FT% that makes him MVP-level elite.

harden is a career 40pct career catch and shooter despite a lower portion of his attempts being wide open vs the average player. if you take his pull up shots, which are like 80pct plus of his career 3s, and consider how often they are contested, he is 35.5pct and the equivalent league avg is in the low 31s. he is a great shooter and it’s an important part of his story.

It’s kind of amazing how every single free agent season totally meh players get contracts at AAVs of 15, 20, 22 million per year and then fans of teams somehow think their players are just going to sign at discounts and/or their market value isn’t really what it is.

I mean, there was no chance — zero, nada, none, zilch — that Kristaps Porzingis wasn’t going to get a max contract. And if Julius Randle’s max is 32 there’s no chance — again, zero nada none zilch — that he’s only going to get 20 on the open market. Twenty for Julius is actually a PAY CUT. What possible reason could anyone have to think that Julius Randle is going to take a pay cut???? With these numbers, he’s going to get at or near the 32.

KP at the max would have been a far better investment than Julius Randle was or will be.

The Knicks didn’t get close to his market asset value in the trade. They handled it amateurishly and got fleeced. Was it franchise-“killing”? It was certainly pretty close. The Knicks are still a million miles away from anything and facing the dilemma of overpaying a guy who you really can’t keep in his current role, lest they slip even from their current 33rd-ish percentile in the league “perch.”

The Durant factor is certainly real, but if there’s anyone in basketball who’s most likely to misinterpret, overrate, or otherwise bungle whatever back channel chatter was chattering, it’s Steve Mills. And at the end of the day, he did overrate, misinterpret or otherwise bungle it. Durant didn’t come to the Knicks.

So Steve Mills basically wagered on his own competence or lack of incompetence and on the perception of the front office he led not being one of incompetence. Bad bet.

Brian Cronin: Yeah, I’m never going to knock the trade because of the Durant factor.

I think it’s fair not to knock the “idea” of the trade based on the promise of pre-injury Durant, but to knock the actual trade that occurred on its own merits. And it’s not like there was ever a guarantee that KD was coming. It’s one thing if you do that in a couple of day’s time…but months and months out?

At the end of the day, he’s taking the shots he’s taking

i swear to my lord and savior greg butler i almost wrote “i realize this reply is an open piss into the 36.3 pct is 36.3 pct hurricane” but i ran out of fingers. so is dame lillard at only 37.3 pct merely a pretty good shooter or does he take a fuck ton of 28 footers?

E, two-way G-Leaguer:
And I’m not even sure the null hypothesis, “Kevin Durant decided not to come to the Knicks BECAUSE OF the way they treated and traded Kristaps Porzingis” has been disproven.Wide swaths of theassociation community looked at those few hours and the ultimate result and saw petty vindictiveness and pure clownshoes.

There’s nowhere to go with this other than conjecture. But there is a silver lining. Dolan made his proclamation that he was told by management that KD or the equivalent was a done deal. When it didn’t happen, it resulted in Mills getting canned. I know you are hyper-cynical about all things Knicks, but if you put getting Mills canned on the pro-trade side, it more than makes up for the paltry return.

Not that I think the current FO are geniuses, but they are at least not embarrassingly bad. That in and of itself is a huge reason for living with the KP debacle.

KP was a RFA that year, the Knicks had to trade him at the deadline, pay him $30M/yr, or let him walk for nothing.

Kyrie & KD’s combined salary was over $70M for that year, so you need to trade him at the deadline or potentially lose him for nothing in FA when you pursue KD & Kyrie. The Knicks didn’t have the luxury of waiting until 2-3 days before. They needed to make a move several months in advanced.

A more interesting conversation: let’s say our picks are 12 and 20 for no reason other than that seems right-ish. That would be a bit of a drag but who are some prospects we like in that range? I’ll start with Jaden Springer, Franz Wagner, Terrence Shannon, Sharife Cooper, and Josh Christopher.

In order, that would probably be Wagner, Christopher, Cooper, Springer, and Shannon. I should have just put them in order originally but I am hungover.

Early Bird: BPM is a rate stat, so putting up 1.9 BPM for 57 games is less helpful for a team than putting up 1.9 BPM for 72 games.

So, ptmilo used vorp because it allows us to look at value contributed for the whole season without making any adjustments for KP missing part of the season (I assume).

I don’t see why this matters in the context of this discussion.

Early Bird: Of course, we also happen to have a player on the roster who also plays C and was more valuable last season than KP was by either VORP or BPM.

Who do you think would get you more return in a trade right now, KP or Mitch?

Why should we penalize a player for games he didn’t play due to coming back from injury in the context of a discussion about how valuable a player is when he actually plays?

If a player often does not play that should inform one’s view of his value to some extent, IMO.

thenoblefacehumper: If a player often does not play that should inform one’s view of his value to some extent, IMO.

True, but that isn’t really relevant to this discussion, and in fact distorts the context. KP was injured at the time of the trade, so that was already baked in. He was healthy for the rest of the regular season.

FWIW dept., but this seems to be a reasonable take:

https://www.bleacherreport.com/articles/2927862-are-the-new-york-knicks-really-heading-in-the-right-direction

Is it fair to say that, at this point, the KP trade = Randle (cap space), Quickly (1st rounder), DSJ, and next year’s Dallas first rounder?

TheClashFan:
FWIW dept., but this seems to be a reasonable take:

https://www.bleacherreport.com/articles/2927862-are-the-new-york-knicks-really-heading-in-the-right-direction

Is it fair to say that, at this point, the KP trade = Randle (cap space), Quickly (1st rounder), DSJ, and next year’s Dallas first rounder?

Yes, because it allowed us to move the team in a different direction rather than building around KP. No, because we could have generated the cap space to sign Randle by other means.

A discussion we should have more often is theorizing Randle’s role on a good (let’s say 50+ win) team. I’ve enjoyed watching him this year and he seems like a great dude, but I still kind of struggle to see it.

There’s no way a good team would employ him as a full time point-forward like we do, so the value he adds with his playmaking takes a major hit. I think to be useful for a good team he needs to be reliable at ~34% from 3 at decent volume and I’m not so sure that’s in the cards.

Early Bird: But to your other point, I’m not sure we are discussing how valuable KP is when he plays. I’ve generally been taking the discussion to be the value of the trade. If so, then we do care about how much he plays because it impacts his actual value.

Right, and he has sustained an additional injury, so there’s that. But at the time of the trade, the time missed in 2019-20 was already baked in, so I don’t think it should be included in determining his value in that year.

I thought the same thing, PT…you needed a touchdown anyway!

dunno, if we start doing that, I wonder what we would conclude about lots of players, whether from 2 or 3 or even dunks. At the end of the day, he’s taking the shots he’s taking and the result is a slightly above-average 3-pt shooter. If he didn’t get to the line at ridiculous rates for a smaller player and shoot well from inside the arc, he wouldn’t have the historic TS/Usage ratios he put up in his MVP years. Now you can argue that the rate at which he is contested from 3 opens up blow-by jumpers from 2 and drives and makes him more likely to get fouled, but that’s true for Steph as well and he’s over 40% from 3 for his career.

It’s not fair to say his three point shooting isn’t anything special, he just gets to the line a lot. One of the reasons he gats to the line a lot is that other teams defend him tightly because his shooting on open threes is very good. That tight defense probably reduces his percentage for defended threes. Other players don’t get that attention. I mean Frank could have the same three point shooting percentage as Harden this season, but it e we oils to make him as good as Harden

Knick fan not in NJ: It’s not fair to say his three point shooting isn’t anything special, he just gets to the line a lot.One of the reasons he gats to the line a lot is that other teams defend him tightly because his shooting on open threes is very good. That tight defense probably reduces his percentage for defended threes.Other players don’t get that attention.I mean Frank could have the same three point shooting percentage as Harden this season, but it e we oils to make him as good as Harden

I said as much. But isn’t that true of Durant, Steph, etc.?

Lol Green Bay’s coaching staff should be executed

Julius Randle Point Forward first 8 games: 32 Ast% 19.6 To%
Last 9: 26.8 Ast% 9.9 To%

If the last 9 are for real that’s really not bad. Kemba for his career is 28.4/10.5. Dame is 30/11.7. So you’re a little south of good scoring point #’s but not so far that it couldn’t made up for. Still, I doubt it’s sustainable and even if it was there’d still be spacing and defensive issues.

Z-man:
I hate me some Tom Brady

The only saving grace for me is that I dislike Aaron Rodgers almost as much.

I doubt this factors in Aaron Rodgers throwing and Tom Brady on deck to run the clock out, right?

no it doesn’t. but i think it’s reasonably close nonetheless. i guess the key intuitive stumbling block is your relatively low win probability even if you make the long shot 4th and 8. not only do you have to convert the 2, you then have to both fade a brady 2 min drill and win in (probably) OT. so there is a sense in which a brady offense would also push the go-for-it yield down a bit from the baseline. i still think it’s probably a go, but it doesn’t seem like it deserves the open mouth treatment. the in game gambling market actually popped up a tick when they decided to kick (odds for GB very modestly improved).

At the same time, I hated going for the 2-pt conversion earlier in the game. The common thinking is if you’re down five, go for 2, even if there’s plenty of time left. My thinking is take the sure 1, and this way if you score a TD, a FG only ties, and if the opponent gets a FG you still tie with a FG point after. Being down 5 is a shitty place to be. I don’t know what the odds are, but I always questioned it.

Guess who’s back, back again
Frank is back, tell a friend
Guess who’s back, guess who’s back?

Seems like going for 2 improves the odds, but you better make it! (I also wonder if the odds based on a team’s average 2-pt conversion success factors in that in the conference finals you are probably playing against an elite defense…)

I think it made sense to go for two there, and Rodgers had the play! Dude just dropped it. Ugh.