Knicks @ Pistons: 2nd 2020-21 Preseason Game Thread

let’s kick some ass

I guess Q4 of a Jets game is a good time to start preparing my eggplant parm for the start of the Knicks game.

Well, after watching the latest Jets/Adam Gase debacle, I’m looking forward to a game that is competitive after the first few minutes.

Someone read Brian’s posts and got Thibs a new mask.

TheClashFan: You mean halftime?That’s when I started doing other things…
🙂

I air-fried the eggplant in the 3rd qtr.

atypical number of decent teams this year. these ain’t two of them.

GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: I air-fried the eggplant in the 3rd qtr.

I think Seattle deep-fried the Jets…

Hopefully we work on some sort of offense between now and opening night.

I don’t think I have ever seen an easier bucket than Griffin just got. It’s not Mase and Oak in there.

And it appears Burks really can shoot. Refreshing

First air ball of the night goes to Knox.

Ugly basketball. Knicks are uglier right now.

How is it that Knox doesn’t slip between the floor boards…

Pretty bad defensive quarter. Let’s see if they step it up.

The Knicks were bad both offensively and defensively.

DSJ does not look good.

This is really hard to watch, even by preseason standards

this is brutal…Smith jr is horrible…time to cut bait on that mistake

These are the two worst teams in the association. Math works out pretty easy from there.

Since when do comments get held up to await moderation???

Holy crap, the level of this game is Fizdale-bad.

Knox,
Another airball

DSJ needs to work more on his game and less on slanging that wood.

Frank back to the one?

Edit…and takes the charge

Quickley! Let’s see what he can do!

thibs needs to learn how to shout it’s a fucking zone thru a mask, they can’t read his veins

Toppin has not looked good tonight

Quickley!!!!!!!!

There must have been a half dozen traveling calls in the past 2 minutes.

bey just abused rj

The game is surprisingly close. Detroit must really suck.

at least toppin’s shot will make it to the msg rafters

Wally just proudly announced how his daughter committed to UK . . . all the pieces are starting to fall into place. The CAAntucky Conspiracy is tightening its grasp on the Knicks.

Randle trying to do it himself now… not looking good

Thibs is the new coach, a proven commodity, and yet somehow some way Julius Randle is still doing the same shit.

NBA league pass is showing the pistons broadcast again…not too bad an announcing crew…

this is the kind of thing we get when we don’t get good pg play and elf only played 8 minutes….

Randle is terrible…

Love that play by Elfrid

Brian Cronin: Have they scored in the second half?

The Knicks have cut into the lead with good defense.

Randle has been really aggressive running the court with the ball after rebounds. I do like that

The Knicks have cut into the lead with good defense.

They’ve played some good defense, but the Pistons also look terrible on offense. It’s basically Fizdale’s “Kill what you catch” offense.

rj trying to decapitate noel and get mitch minutes

Could someone please tell me that they’re trying to pump up Randle’s trade value?

Hayes looks pretty bad, this might really turn out to be an awful draft.

Burks is smoove

Noel fouls at the same clip as Mitch. We’ll need both – just for the minutes.

Watching Griffin and Randle go at each other. Is not aesthetically pleasing

I wish I could mute just Wally.

Update: Our defense isn’t good. Just Noel’s defense that’s good. That might be enough tho

derrick rose would be a good pg on a lot of teams…. he’s not terrible anymore…

How in the world did Wally not understand what they were reviewing? How is he that dumb?

RJ!

good quarter for rj

RJ has actually played pretty smoothly and a nice floor game. Not superstar-like. But solid.

I still have hope for RJ.

@BC I mean, most smart people would be aware enough to not be an outright propaganda robot, right? Or at least have the wherewithal to say something occasionally interesting to spice up the mindless homerism.

sooooo.. after starting 0-6 …. rj’s been 13-19 including 12-15 from 2…..

The #BarrettBros will be demanding respect from the #ClarkeClan in due time.

djphan:
sooooo.. after starting 0-6 …. rj’s been 13-19 including 12-15 from 2…..

I wouldn’t get too excited, 6/7 tonight have been assisted buckets. We wouldn’t want Brandon Clarke would we?

I was yelling at RJ to pass to Mitch but I guess he can just go dunk it himself if he wants

I think RJ should just go left for the rest of his career. That’s the one thing that really works for him.

That was a truly terrible foul by Mitch. The one before wasn’t great either

I was yelling at RJ to pass to Mitch but I guess he can just go dunk it himself if he wants

Mitch screened off for that dunk really well. Really bad foul by Mitch there, though.

Damn Mitch, what are you doing?

Brian Cronin:
How stupid is it to stick with your starters for the first ten minutes of the third quarter in a fucking preseason game?

Yeah Thibs wants to win these preseason games a little too much

Maybe he’s frustrated he’s not starting and people refuse to pass him the ball wide open under the basket?

This is probably the only season in NBA history where playing your starters a lot in the pre-season makes sense. Especially for a team with a ton of new players.

i think we caught a huge break with our pre-season schedule…

gives thibs and the players time to adjust…to reality…as of now i’m still sticking to the over with a total of 27 wins…

hard to speak on mitch…what makes him really good (reaction time), makes him really not so good at times…

Seven minutes for Bey is also dumb.

DRed:
This is probably the only season in NBA history where playing your starters a lot in the pre-season makes sense.Especially for a team with a ton of new players.

Agree

The 4th Q would be playoffs7th game like

Hoping we can get Randle to trust Burks to make shots by the end of preseason. Otherwise, he’ll keep spinning into the middle of the defense.

the Detroit dancing girls look like their B team tonight…

ethsurken:
I mean he’s a human being and has been disrespected every step of the way by this organization. Also it’s 12 minutes of a preseason game.

No, it’s pretty much a consistent theme for 2+ years

Mitch has gotten the benefit of the doubt more than other Knick kids. I’ve been on the Mitch bandwagon from the start but it’s time for him to mature.

Did Knox have any sort of plan there?

i don’t think knox is getting significant minutes this year so i wouldn’t really worry about what his impact will be….

the pistons waited three quarters to start running grown up plays on offense

that would be the 2.0 Jersey

The Pistons have clearly game planned for Plumlee to be sort of a point center. I don’t know why. It seems quite foolish.

Yes, the disrespect and mistreatment by the organization has been constant. The best way to handle a young player who didn’t play college is to make him play in fear of making mistakes, then when he plays well leave him on the bench in favor of Taj Gibson and Bobby Portis.

Also funny how fouling is never mentioned as a major problem for Nerlens… you would think a veteran would learn. He must be trash. Can’t be a starter when you average 5 fouls per 36.

Hayes looked good going to his right there, he just botched the shot at the basket.

Noel fouls at the same clip as Mitch. We’ll need both – just for the minutes.

Right, but that’s my issue. Noel is on a one-year deal. Robinson is on year three of a four year deal. If they’re both going to have to play (and they will), why are they starting Noel if they’re so similar? It seems way too much like short-term thinking from a coach where that was specifically what we were worried about from him. If you’re looking short term, Noel starting is fine. Noel is a good player. I’m a big Noel fan. But why would you be thinking short term?

this is exciting – how long before mitch fouls out…

I think Mitch is too gassed to foul anyone

ethsurken:
Not talking about this board, talking about the team/media.

No need to talk about them. This is where truth is spoken.

It’ll be interesting to see how Thibs closes this out. Does Randle go iso? Who runs point? Am curious.

RJ needs to be our “closer”…

the amount of 3pt’ers obi is shooting is a concern….

Randle…no defense

i don’t think i’ve ever wished harder for a ball to go in, then when frank shoots…

realky..our offense is Randle iso…thibs…be better

Does Doumbouya always look like an MVP candidate?

Thibs needs to say fuck it and play Mitch and Nerlens together.

Frank at PG is just don’t.

I agree on the twin towers approach

We have so many bad players on this team.

Not mediocre, bad.

Mike Honcho:
Randle: is 4-11

Wally: “Randle has been a bright spot on offense, scoring when he wants”

He says it all the time too.

i think it’s smart of casey to practice trying to tank a lead like this. you need to play the preseason like it’s the real thing. alas he has a tough opponent.

Bullock has been terrible shooting tonight

RJ is OK

RJ looks really good.

RJ is good. The rest of the team is trash right now.

Knox in particular needs to get memory holed for a good long time. I know Kentucky East is deeply invested in his success, but this is a good chance for Thibs to put his money where his mouth is when it comes to the idea that young players can develop without having to actually appear in games.

so i guess the lone bright spot was rj…. way less forced shots than the first game and got a lot of good opps just hustling and getting down the court…. 16-22 from 2pt territory after going 0-6 but 16/28 is still pretty decent.. mid range shots have been falling…. the free throws looked ok… seems to be going for a quicker and more compact motion … probably to try and think less and have less moving parts… looked for the open guy also although some loose passes at times… lack of defensive #s is the only blemish but if rj is shooting anywhere like this then it’s gonna mean incredible things….

obi was concerning…. it’s preseason but there shouldn’t be any games where 90% of his shots are 3s… if it is then he’s going to be a bust…. had some issues finishing at the rim but he was trying to do it himself… he’s going to need to lean on pg play to get him buckets this year….

RJ & Burks played well

Whoops, forgot about Burks. Competent on offense but doesn’t grind possessions to a halt the way Morris could sometimes last season. Don’t mind him at all, especially since he should be flippable at the deadline with that contract. But we desperately need both a point guard and people who can shoot from deep.

A frustrating game. Pre-season but a preview of what’s to come.

DSJr showing he doesn’t work as a point guard and the Knicks still need one. Knox looks completely lost. They may not be in the Thibs 8-man rotation.

Who is Talen Horton Tucker?

I turned this one off early, but how did Frank foul out?

who knows what opportunities were present to do something about the point guard position on our team…sure seemed like there were some options available for acquiring an established point guard this off-season…

this isn’t just like a new occurrence either, i just don’t get it, never will understand our organization’s disregard for point guard play…

RJ Barrett played well and that’s actually all that matters this season. It would bring my heart nothing but joy to add one of Cade Cunningham and Evan Mobley to him. Keep giving RJ the ball and keep letting Ronnie Fieg design the jerseys.

this might be a good time to check in on the draft…. my top 10 so far:

1. cade cunningham – early favorite for#1 but his 2p% is dipping which is coinciding with some questions about his athletic ability.. probably nothing but we’ll see.. he got tons of comp from the next two guys who have minor questions of their own.. he’s a good athlete but it seems like people were expecting lebron and he was never that.. he’s still very good..

2. evan mobley – starting to put it all together after a slow start and is showing why he’s probably the next great big man in this league… incredibly skinny and some slightly low reb #s… but he’s got great length… nice shooting touch… decent moves on the block… and he passes very well too… best big since KAT..

3. jalen suggs – he’s probably had the most impressive games but you can’t really beat franchise wing or C…. that’s the only reason why he’s #3.. the outside shot seems questionable from the box score but looks fine to my eye.. plays with great pace… the handle is really good as he changes speeds well and is low and controlled.. aggressive attacking the paint and finishes well when challenged.. btw.. these 3 guys are consensus #1 types and all probably would have gone #1 in the last draft..

4. jalen johnson – there’s a gap between the top 3 and the 2nd jalen who might wind up being the 3rd jalen when it’s all said and done.. johnson is good too tho and it’s impressive that he’s been so good without a jumper cuz it’s bad right now… his passiing and ball handling probably slightly worse than advertised also.. he’s no ben simmons but he might be lamar odom..

5. jalen green – he’s in the gleague so we may not see much of him.. impressive in eybl and was #2 rated behind cade.. there’s questions about his shot selection but his game is supposed to be complete like cade’s with questionable shot selection but better athlete… i don’t think he can break top 3 without showing…

6. moses moody – best shooter… but not necessarily the best jumper… he shoots incredibly well but combines it with good athleticism and a nose for the ball… good on his drives and stays low and protects the ball but he’s not exploding anywhere and he’s not exactly creating for others either… he’s a bit like nesmith without nesmith struggling his freshman year….

7. james bouknight – top returning player in college… other mocks have him rated really low now but a combination of disappointing freshmen and an impressive start should have him rising on boards soon… great finishing with either hand… elevates well and has some hangtime.. great change of pace handling… shoots well off the dribble and off the catch.. great scoring instincts all around…

8. brandon boston – primary reason for kentucky’s struggle so far… he’s disappointed and it’s because of his struggles attacking the rim and settling for jumpers which he’s not hitting at all either… but the secondary markers are there.. he was never a great passer but he has great length and current struggles aside supposed to have a great jumper… looks like it’s there (.846 ft%)… might be another knox but i think he’s prob better…

9. jonathan kuminga – like jalen green he’s in the gleague so might not see much from him… he’s rated around here based purely off hearsay… measured short 6ft 6 instead of the orginal 6ft 8.. supposed to be the best athlete in the draft but nobody’s really seen all that much from him… a bit of a bully ball type from reports so could be overrated…

10. Scottie Barnes – this guy is purely eye test atm and the eye test folks will orgasm once they see this guy.. a draymond clone but a better athlete… extremely impressive vs florida this weekend… he’s either going to need to reb or shoot a LOT better so he’s not there yet but it’s hard to look at this guy and think he won’t make it in the right environment…

I wanna know how Wally even got this job i think he might be the worst announcer in the league.

Him getting a gig as the in-studio analyst was normal enough. He replaced the similarly terrible Kelly Tripucka. Regional in-studio analysts are almost always terrible. The puzzling thing was who looked at Wally in the studio and decided to transition him into not only being an analyst in the booth but clearly being the heir apparent to Clyde as the lead analyst. It’s beyond baffling.

We went from Marv Albert and John Andariese to Mike Breen and Clyde Frazier and we just got far too spoiled, I guess.

thanks for the info brian

It’s not just that Wally is such a shameless company man, but that he comes across as so slow-witted while calling the games. There was a sequence last night where he and Breen started talking about how the Knicks had four of their youngest players on the court at the moment. Wally began naming them, then stopped after the third because he had clearly blanked on the fourth guy. Breen eventually jumped in to fill the dead air, and then Wally blurted out, Quickley’s name like he was proud for finally remembering it.

Calling a game live is an incredibly hard thing to do, and I’m sure Wally is a lot brighter than he comes across as doing a job he’s not particularly good at. But surely MSG can find a sycophant who can actually think on his feet under those tough circumstances?

Kevin Knox was literally a better player in the 2018 summer league than he is now.

I don’t see any way in which DSJ becomes a useful player – he just does not think the game at a high level and that is an impossible obstacle for a player who can only play lead guard. And Knox – he might be useful, but he should concentrate on doing a couple things well as opposed to being a jack of all trades on offense. Concentrate on spacing the floor as a stretch 4, and sure, attack a closeout if the opportunity presents itself. But any sort of actual ballhandling with reads should be something he works on in practice (preseason games are ok i guess!).

re: the DSJ thing – that is why I think we need to play Frank more — he is at least an above average defender who can plausibly and capably guard 3 positions well. he has a good feel for the game on the offensive end. He just has so many more paths to success than DSJ – ie. if he can shoot 35% from 3 which is not a goal that is out of reach, he can at least be a Moe Harkless-type player. they should put him in situations to succeed and not just let him rot on the bench so they can continue doing futile resuscitation on DSJ’s trade value.

They need a PG who can hit catch and shoot threes off RJ and Obi kicks. The roster now is a mismatched disaster.

With Frank’s form and improvement I think he hits 35-37 from 3. And his D is good and he moves the ball. Thibs already said Quickly is an NBA shooter.

I’d like to see a lineup with RJ is primary play maker of:
Frank
Quickly / Burks
RJ
Randle (if you have to) or Toppin
Noel / Mitch

Thibs probably thinks DSJr is a hopeless cause also, but you can always hope he looks good for awhile and then trade him. I’d like to see Quickley. On this team he’ll get his chance eventually, but we have to be realistic. There’s no way he’s ready to be an NBA player now with no summer league and no real camp. We have a glut and have to loosen it up. They should pretty much take anything they can get for DSjr assuming they can get anything unless they are seeing something in the gym I’m not seeing in games.

(for the record Damyean Dotson had a good first game shooting for the Cavs, not that we need shooting lol)

Alan Hahn brought Wally on board because they are both Long Island meatheads, and I guess Hahn worshipped him in high school or something.

The in-studio gig was harmless enough, but God does he suck as a color man.

MSG is the complete opposite of a meritocracy, and I’m afraid that the FO is run exactly the same way (Kentucky, CAA). As such, the Knicks probably have the least amount of talent in the whole league. It’s laughable that they thought they didn’t needs another rookie (33rd pick in the draft).

Where I’m seeing the rotation with the regular season somehow rapidly approaching:

Starters look locked in. I don’t like Noel over Mitch any more than anybody else but can’t say Mitch has done anything through two games to change Thibs’ mind. Randle over Obi was the only other mild point of contention but it seems obvious the team still sees Randle as the closest thing they have to a star. Obi looked very rookie-ish through two games: some nice flashes but it looks like the game is still moving very fast for him. Lots of plays where it looks like he has real tunnel vision. Not surprising given the jump in level of play with no summer league or adaptation period. RJ, Burks and Elfrid were really the three points of competence last night.

Obi and Mitch clearly round out the front court. Knox has been absolutely abysmal so far and I don’t see Thibs buying it much longer; he will either have a coronary or cut him from the rotation. Bullock was super bricky last night but he’s got a lock on the backup wing role by default right now. That makes 8.

The guard situation is where it gets really interesting. DSJ seemed to have the early lead for backup PG but has looked way too much like himself so far. Frank was painful with the fouling last night but DSJ’s incompetence may keep him in the running at PG. He maybe has some role off the ball also but that strikes me as pretty matchup dependent. Quickley seems to be at the bottom of that group right now. Rivers seems unlikely to be ready for a full role on opening night but I suspect has the inside track on a large role eventually. My guess is Rivers is the 3rd guard eventually with the rest of the guys scrapping it out for about half a role as the 10th guy (when everyone is healthy which may be a fleeting situation this year), but the only thing I’m confident about with this rotation battle is that it will drive a lot of knickerblogger traffic this season.

The most depressing thing about last night’s game was Kevin Knox. As bad as Smith Jr. is, at least we didn’t actually draft him. Knox does not do anything well; if he could make 3’s at say a 38% clip, or played lock down D or got a ton of rebounds, he’d be minimally useful.

As it is, he’s a total negative when he’s on the court, and I don’t know what Thibs is going to do with him. What a complete waste of a lottery pick.

It’s hard to have any optimism for Thibs on the offensive end when he’s obviously letting Randle free lance. He’s back to Fizdale levels of aimless bullshit.

It’s hard to have any optimism for Thibs on the offensive end when he’s obviously letting Randle free lance. He’s back to Fizdale levels of aimless bullshit.

Again, I think this underestimates just how bad the offensive talent on the roster is. Watching Randle dribble and spin around like the world’s worst Magic Johnson impersonator makes me want to throw a brick at the TV, but we have so few players on this team who can create offense for themselves or others that some of those Randle isos sadly become our best option on a given possession.

Alan: Again, I think this underestimates just how bad the offensive talent on the roster is. Watching Randle dribble and spin around like the world’s worst Magic Johnson impersonator makes me want to throw a brick at the TV, but we have so few players on this team who can create offense for themselves or others that some of those Randle isos sadly become our best option on a given possession.

I’m with you on this one.

Julius Randle sucks as a Knick but if he’s not spinning and sinning his way to a > 20% USG rate then that gives the defense more resources to key in on RJ Barrett or it means somebody else has to create offense. We just don’t have the guns to do anything but ask Julius Randle to work above what he’s qualified to do. Watching him spin into turnovers and bad shots while ignoring better plays to be made is frustrating, but we don’t have any alternatives unless we wanna turn RJ Barrett into peak James Harden.

I think our rotation will look like:

PG: Payton, Smith Jr/Rivers
SG: Burks, Ntilikina/Rivers
SF: Barrett, Knox/Bullock
PF: Randle, Toppin
C: Noel, Robinson

My brain tells me Knox, Bullock, and Smith Jr will rotate in and out of the rotation with injuries and just good/bad play. Bullock looks cooked so far, though. I don’t think he’s guaranteed minutes at all.

I don’t want to overreact to two games, but since it’s really 2 games + 2/3 years when it comes to Frank/Knox/DSJ it sure seems like we can safely say the “core” is exactly three players: RJ, Mitch, and Toppin. Knox looks sub G-League level out there, Frank is the same player he was as a rookie, and while DSJ can look the part more than the other two it doesn’t look like it’ll ever come together.

I don’t think Spellman, Pinson, or Harper are serious prospects but at a certain point you have to give them a look over this group, both on the merits and because they’re at least as likely to be core pieces.

I hate watching Randle do his thing as much as the next guy, but I’m in the “there aren’t great alternatives” camp. You have to use every possession you have one or the other, and it’s not like you can run PNR with Mitch or something else we’d prefer every time. To be sure we could probably stand to rein him in to an extent, I just think people wouldn’t be thrilled with the alternatives either. They’d probably be Alec Burks ISOs or something.

For all you guys complaining about Wally, it could be worse. Ever listen to Yankees on the radio for the last 20 years?

I don’t have any particular love for Thibs as an offensive coach but I agree it’s harsh to be too critical at this point. This team looks like it has the absolute worst offensive talent in the league to me and besides that they’ve had like a week of practices in which Thibs was always going to be heavily focused on defense. If Thibs can pull the 25th ranked offense out of this group it would be an absolute miracle. So yeah, the offense looked awful in these two games and I’d definitely prefer a coach who could at least make us more aesthetically pleasing on that end, but no coach was ever going to make this a good offense.

The Glass Half Rebuilt:
I think our rotation will look like:

PG: Payton, Smith Jr/Rivers
SG: Burks, Ntilikina/Rivers
SF: Barrett, Knox/Bullock
PF: Randle, Toppin
C: Noel, Robinson

My brain tells me Knox, Bullock, and Smith Jr will rotate in and out of the rotation with injuries and just good/bad play. Bullock looks cooked so far, though. I don’t think he’s guaranteed minutes at all.

Interesting. I agree with you for the most part, but I would take Knox, Frank and Smith Jr out of the list and replace with Quickly. IQ can shoot the 3 and otherwise plays the same roll as them. Frank has the other upside, perimeter defense. But IQ’s scouting report is that on-ball defense is a strength.

I want to see if Quickly can run an offense.

GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: Interesting. I agree with you for the most part, but I would take Knox, Frank and Smith Jr out of the list and replace with Quickly.IQ can shoot the 3 and otherwise plays the same roll as them.Frank has the other upside, perimeter defense. But IQ’s scouting report is that on-ball defense is a strength.

I want to see if Quickly can run an offense.

I have IQ out of the rotation until after the trade deadline because you don’t have to know what you have in him for sure until 2022. The Knicks have to make decisions on Knox, Smith Jr, and Ntilikina this season so I think they get an organizational bump up in the rotation.

Sly: For all you guys complaining about Wally, it could be worse. Ever listen to Yankees on the radio for the last 20 years?

I’ve been listening to the Yankees on radio for the past 55 years. Is Sterling more over the top than Rizzuto?
I don’t hate Wally as a play-by-play color guy because he’s a homer, I think he’s a bad color guy. He takes too long to make a point and it takes away from play-by-play I want. He starts talking. There’s a play. Who was that that poked away the ball? Who dove on the floor? His number was blocked… Wally’s still explaining that old-play.

That’s the beauty of Clyde. His little phrases say it all in one short sentence: “Matador defense by Knox on that play”, “Obi-1, the precocious neophyte, hooping and swooping.” “Mitchell Robinson hacking and whacking.”

I think the rotation is the five starters, plus Mitch, Obi, Rivers, Quickley, and either Frank or Bullock, depending on what the team needs on a given night. Thibs has traditionally played a “9.5”-man rotation, where 9 guys play regularly and one plays sometimes depending on matchup. Here, it feels more like it could be 9 and 3/4.

There’s a passage in Bill Bradley’s book “Life on the Run” where he’s describing what all his teammates are doing on a long flight or bus ride. Some are smoking or drinking or playing cards; Clyde is nose-deep in a book about improving your vocabulary. Clearly, the studying paid off!

Alan:
I think the rotation is the five starters, plus Mitch, Obi, Rivers, Quickley, and either Frank or Bullock, depending on what the team needs on a given night. Thibs has traditionally played a “9.5”-man rotation, where 9 guys play regularly and one plays sometimes depending on matchup. Here, it feels more like it could be 9 and 3/4.

I think Bullock almost has to play as pretty much the only true wing off the bench. RJ might be a decent longshot bet to lead the league in minutes and Burks also seems set to play a lot so that’s not necessarily a huge role but I think that’s close to a necessity against pretty much every team.

I think the idea of Quickley in the rotation to start the season is probably fanciful. Rookies are bad and rookie PGs are notoriously flighty. More than that he’s just not going to have enough time to win over the coaches given that he’s obviously starting off behind the more veteran guys on the depth chart. By the end of the year, maybe, particularly if there’s a trade to clear up that backcourt logjam but to start the year no way. 9 minutes in the first two (of four total) preseason games does not scream “immediate rotation role”.

As per the Knick rotations, in two preseason games so far, Thibs has played Quickley seven minutes. I don’t think that bodes well for his rotation status. You might say, “But it’s preseason, Brian, you stupid fucking idiot, minutes don’t necessarily fucking matter!” to which I would reply, “Under many coaches, perhaps not, but I think Thibs is pretty much as advertised. If Quickley was going to be part of the main rotation, he’d be in the main rotation already.”

From the comments it looks like half the people hate Randle and half the people think the team is so bad he’s essentially forced to do more than he’s capable of doing which makes him look worse than he is. I’ve been in the latter camp all along and remain there, but it’s not like he’s some high IQ player out there. It’s probably a combination of Randle occasionally doing foolish things on his own and occasionally doing foolish things because his teammates are so inept he feels like he has to.

Another unrelated thing I noticed was that we seemed to be trying to force some lobs that turned into TOs instead of dunks. I’m not sure if that was bad guard play, but it seemed like Detroit was doing a good job of taking that away and our guards were trying to force it anyway and it turned out badly.

I’ve been in the latter camp all along and remain there, but it’s not like he’s some high IQ player out there

the real problem with randle is not that it’s a bad idea to use him as point playmaker like we love to do. it’s that even at his best he’s a bottom 5 nba help defender and not quick enough to have any other defensive role, while on offense he can be efficient but provides zero spacing. you just can’t be that useful in today’s nba with both of those traits, even if you can score and rebound effectively. you are at best an mle type player getting 10-15 mins in competitive playoff series and quite possibly not a useful option at all on the wrong team or against the wrong opponent.

Is it too early to ask whether we’d trade Obi for Brandon Clarke?

The offense is gonna look ugly. The players that are here from last year haven’t played together since March and Thibs has had what, 10 days of team practices before the first preseason game? And Thibs has said he wants to work on defense first.

Patience is going to be important. Both with this current team and with the regime in general. This same team in 2 months will probably play a lot better together but also this team will look different after the trade deadline than it does now and will look different next off season.

We all say we want a slow rebuild but then when the games start playing we get all up in arms about why isn’t this happening, etc. It takes time.

Yeah, RJ looked competent out there. I want to believe we will all be proved wrong. Would make a huge difference in our outlook.

Toppin has been disappointing after his first few minutes.

Quickley honestly looked like a high schooler out there. Doesn’t appear to have the look and feel of an NBA player but whatever, that’s purely gut.

It’s going to be a real rough ride this season is my other major gut feeling. Especially if Mitch is going to average a foul every three minutes.

As for Wally, how bad would he be if we had a good team? He isn’t all the way in the Mark Jackson zone but he is close. Clyde just needs to hang on for another 20 years.

This is one of the most unwatchable teams I’ve seen in 30+ years as a fan of the association.

If RJ could shoot above 30% on threes and make 70% of his FT’s he could be a very effective player. He already possesses other skills like passing, finishing in traffic and on the break, drawing contact and he seems like a pretty committed defender.

My concern with Obi is that he moves kind of awkwardly and stiffly. I can see why people would make the Amare comparison based on body type and movement, but Amare was impossible to guard because of his super quick first step (and it didn’t hurt having Steve Nash as his PG)

But the real question is who are we going to waive to make room for Liangelo Ball??

Also re MKG:

At this point I would just cut Knox. They won’t ever do it because the optics are so bad, but holy shit does he suck.

Just to be the contrarian, I think Obi had a wash game yesterday, which for his second pre-season game with hardly any practice for a raw rookie is to be expected. Way too early to throw him under the bus.

Quickley had the jitters, but he had a nice follow-up in traffic (Quick to the ball, and effort) and I really liked his little floater that was nullified by his travel (jitters, but Frank had one the play before, three years in). Again, first time in an NBA game. Nine minutes. Too early to say much of anything.

And — because there’s a non-zero chance it’s the last time one of us highlights a defensive positive from the lad — I think I saw Obi with a really nice forceful effort against Okafor early in the game, pushing him away from the basket and causing him to take a lousy shot and miss. Admittedly it’s Okafor, and one play. Just sayin’.

Owen: Yeah, RJ looked competent out there. I want to believe we will all be proved wrong. Would make a huge difference in our outlook.

I liked Barret from day one.

Sure, he’s not Zion or Morant, but he could score effectively inside, make plays, and rebounded well in college. When Zion was out for a few games he didn’t shrink because the defense was focused on him. He stepped up his game to an even higher level. The only things to question were the 3 point range and defense. But he answered the question on defense last year. He’s OK on D.

He was in a horrible situation last year because his strength was stifled by the lack of space. The same may be true this year, but hopefully not to the same extent. When you draft kids this age, you have to be patient. This kid is a 3 point shot and some experience away from being a star player. There is no reason to be down on RJ just because it may take him some time to stretch his game out a little and make it easier to get to the basket too. He’ll also eventually have teammates that will make his job easier. We have loads of problems. RJ is not one of them.

I seriously do wonder why we wouldn’t give Jeremy Lin a look-see, if for no other reason to give the fans something to cheer about. I mean seriously, what do we need MKG for — that’s a dead end if I’ve ever seen one no matter how uncle-ish and nephew-ish he may be with World Wide Wes. I would choose Lin 100x over Elfrid Payton too — not that he’s better than Payton, but we already know what Payton is –> he’s a guy who probably does not help make our other young players develop. And Lin would’t have any illusions that he needs to be the starter or whatever.

Add me to the Lin bandwagon. Why not? We know he’ll break down a defense, hit a 3-point shot, is 32 and desperate for another shot. It must be a Dolan thing. Maybe Lin needs to sign up with CAA?

watch like two plays after that when bey drives on rj and lays it in. randle is standing right fucking there, and i mean right there, and perhaps, i dunno… doing calf raises? the only way you can make sense of his behavior is to imagine him with 3/4 sleeves and a whistle.

Brian Cronin:
I think it is going to be hard for Lin to get past how washed he looked in Toronto back in 2019.

Such a bummer for him too because he was still pretty darn good the first half of that season in ATL and there was pretty clearly a role for him in Toronto if he could’ve seized it, and he just couldn’t make a shot. Played his way not just out of the rotation on what ended up being a championship team but apparently out of the league too. Could’ve been a really nice culmination of a good NBA career and instead ended up kind of a bummer. I don’t think at 32 off a season completely out of the league there’s any route back for him. I would’ve been fine giving him a shot last year but I think the ship has sailed now.

Damn, Vonleh caught Covid and then got waived by the Bulls. Tough week.

That said, the media distraction bringing him back would cause might be a blessing given the awful start this team is almost certain to get off to.

Yeah, that’s the only reason bringing Lin back would make any sense.

Quickley will get minutes sometime after Payton gets hurt and DSJr plays his way out of the lineup.

Dwayne Casey agrees with me on a comp for Toppin. But I don’t think it’s as positive a comp as he does.

Nice! You nailed that one.

My randlom thoughts on the 2nd preseason game
Team looked less “Team” than in the first one. I didn’t like the body language.Not much connection.
Elf should stop shooting. Pass or drive only.
Burks is looking great so far.
RJ looked Very Promising.
Randle and Obi should stop dribbling and post more or take 3s(Obi).
Noel and Mitch need help to put their talent in order. Hakeem.
Frank is a keeper. Refs charged him easily too many travellings and fouls yesterday but i liked his pace.
Same with Quickly. His minutes/numbers say bust but i liked his energy. His shot mechanics look strange tho… Pretty curious to watch him make his shots.
DSJ and Knox didn’t look good but let’s wait a bit before throwing em to the lions.
Bullock is Bullock.

Thibs & co have LOTS of work to do for decency

I have no idea why I’m watching a preseason game between the Cavs and Pacers, but Andre Drummond just picked a pocket and launched a Steph Curry three at the buzzer in the first quarter, hit the bottom of the net. 2020 can’t get weirder.

Boy, that Berman take-down was vicious.

“Dennis just looks awful as a player and teammate,” the scout said. “He has zero feel. You question his vision.”

Of course, if you google ‘Berman Dennis Smith Jr,’ you get almost two years of incredibly negative stories on DSJ. All richly deserved, don’t get me wrong.

Zion seems to be functioning properly

That Pelicans team looks pretty saucy

Here’s RealGM savant Colin McGowan’s latest 30 futures piece on the Knicks, focusing on RJ. Anyone else a fan of his stuff?

I’m very thankful that I wasn’t able to watch the games but yeah, the results don’t seem too encouraging. I’m coming into the season with the thinking that nothing really matters outside of how Barrett, Toppin and Mitch plays, so at least RJ showed some encouraging signs and I’m happy enough. I do have feeling that the rotation will be something we obsess over for the entire season, but it’s still too early to freak out.

it’s preseason why would anyone be panicking?

I think Wolves fans are more angry at getting lucky in a draft that had no clear number 1 pick, and with everything that was said by Edwards and about him, I think they were already panicking anyway. Not that I care much since we never jump spots in the lottery or ever get the 1st overall anyway, and they’ve had it twice in not such a long time.

He is ridiculously athletic tho, he had a chase down block that was mental, but the basketball skills seem like they’ll take s long time to develop.

OFF-TOPIC:

If anyone wants to revive the Knickerblogger Fantasy league, I’m up for it.

https://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/nba/108102

I remember I grabbed Tony Wroten off the waivers because of Z-man’s excitement about him…

Z-man:
Man, these first 2 preseason games hit hard…I was so much more optimistic about our future last Thursday…

It’s pretty much exactly where I though we were and why I was upset. Signing or drafting a single GOOD point guard was sooooo important. It’s clear already. Until we find a true, #1 point guard, the Knicks are going to be difficult to watch.

Actually I think the second game was probably a good learning experience for the kids. They had to play a team that had a chance to adapt their game to beat the Knicks and changed how they played specific players. Normally a rookie has to wait a long time to get that experience.

Slow slow Knicks news day today, though The Athletic has an analytics-focused conversation between Vorkunov and Seth Partnow on the current state of the team and Partnow’s expectations for RJ and Obi, among others.

Alan: Those include coaching up RJ and surrounding him with the shooting he needs to thrive, turning Toppin into a high-impact & two-way player, and figuring out if Mitch can start/finish games and if he’s worth his next contract or if he should be traded for a higher return. That’s pretty much it.

I thought the most interesting tidbit from Partnow in there was his stat using the weighted average accuracy on open 3-pointers which showed the Knicks as last year’s worst shooting team (not shocking). I’m not sure it’s a perfect way of capturing what he’s going for because a significant part of the cost of having bad shooters is the good looks that they turn down which won’t show up his metric. But it’s at least an attempt to measure this idea and he cites improvement in this area via Burks and hopefully Obi as a reason the offense should be better than last year. I’m not sure I find it that convincing but it’s at least a slightly optimistic take on the offense which I’ve been struggling to come up with since the Sunday game.

This may actually amount to nothing, but putting Kevin Knox and and Michael Kidd Gilchrist higher up on the ladder than Omari Spellman is some real bullshit. Omari Spellman has been in the league the same amount of time as Knox, he’s been a more productive player, and he knows his role. We have a guy on our bench that makes 1.7 3PM/36 and grabs 8.9 reb/36 and we won’t even give him time? I get he’s the 5th big on the roster (and I hope that makes him a lock to make the team), but I find it hard to believe that Omari Spellman isn’t one of the team’s ten best players. If he gets cut, the Knicks will officially be the CAAntucky mafia and I don’t really like that if it’s going to come at the expense of actual NBA players.

It’s a shame Omari Spellman won’t get to see any real minutes with the Knicks because he’s the exact type of floor spacer you’d want next to RJ Barrett, and he isn’t exactly ancient at 23 years old. I’d like to see Quickley, Ntilikina, Barrett, Toppin, and Spellman on the floor for a good stretch against Cleveland to give RJ some actual spacing.

A few days ago I said there’s no coherent reason to prioritize Knox over Spellman and Knox’s play since then has reinforced that. Spellman doesn’t have much in the way of a ceiling, but we can be pretty damn sure he can 1) be a large human and 2) hit threes. There’s room for that in the rotation of this team.

You could go a few different ways with a lineup meant to maximize spacing for Barrett but Quickley-Barrett-Burks-Toppin-Spellman is probably my favorite iteration. Preseason sure seems like the time to give it a go.

Donnie Walsh:
It was Reub, not Z-Man! (I think some apologies are in order)

Reub and Z-Man are not the same guy????
…
…
…
…
…
hahahahahahaha

I’d be happy to give Spellman a chance but a 6’8? C who is chronically like 25 pounds overweight and has played only a sprinkling of minutes in his two NBA seasons is exactly the kind of guy where you should be skeptical that everything you need to know about him is captured in his box score.

His box score stats aren’t that good, though, so it’s not like he’s gaming the system or something (I don’t even know how that would work). 1,691 minutes isn’t bad for a 30th pick (he ranks 25th in MP in his draft class), and ATL has shown time and time again that they can’t ID talent. As I’ve repeated ad nauseum, GSW hasn’t fared much better since the days of drafting Draymond and Steph. (Seth Curry was on their damn roster and couldn’t make their squad; now he can claim he was a big part of the greatest offense in NBA history, with a different franchise.) Hell, Shane Larkin couldn’t find the floor on NBA rosters and he won Euroleague MVP while shooting 50% on deep threes all season. NBA teams aren’t good at talent evaluation outside of the very best and very worst the league has to offer.

Spellman’s weight problems are probably reflected in his box score stats, not some kind of hidden information there. And if you think he’s just a mediocre player now, maybe you are betting that he’ll learn how to cut sugary drinks again, which was the primary cause of his Villanova weight problems, and get back into pro athlete condition. Also, his wingspan is 7’2″ and he’s plenty big to play center in today’s league. I just don’t think he’s all that good. Better than Knox, though. I’d cut Knox (or trade him for future 2nds) before getting rid of just about anyone outside of DSJ on the roster.

His box score stats aren’t that good, though, so it’s not like he’s gaming the system or something (I don’t even know how that would work).

I’m not saying he’s gaming the system but DBPM is always a little bit of an estimate particularly in a small sample and it’s not that hard to come up with a story for why Spellman might be doing a lot of defensive things poorly that aren’t captured in the model – for example, it’s hard to be in position when you’re way overweight.

Generally though I agree with the chorus here – I’m not anti-Spellman and I agree he probably deserves to make team ahead of Knox who’s a total lost cause and MKG who was a lost cause like two years ago. I’m just saying that when you’ve got a guy who you acknowledge looks only mediocre on paper with an obvious flaw beyond that and who has already washed out of two organizations in two years decrying that the only reason he’s not making the Knicks is because of a conspiracy is silly.

Ingmarrrr: Reub and Z-Man are not the same guy???? hahahahahahaha

have I crossed the reubicon?

Dotson went to 2 colleges and NEITHER of them were Kentucky. Do we really want that kind of player on our roster?

thenoblefacehumper: A few days ago I said there’s no coherent reason to prioritize Knox over Spellman and Knox’s play since then has reinforced that. Spellman doesn’t have much in the way of a ceiling, but we can be pretty damn sure he can 1) be a large human and 2) hit threes. There’s room for that in the rotation of this team.

You could go a few different ways with a lineup meant to maximize spacing for Barrett but Quickley-Barrett-Burks-Toppin-Spellman is probably my favorite iteration. Preseason sure seems like the time to give it a go.

I don’t get any indication that Tom Thibodeau understands the first thing about the need for floor spacing in the modern NBA.

Yup, the potential FA saviors are dwindling. Hopefully this makes Rose pivot into using the cap space to get a few more assets. Wouldn’t mind taking on some salary for picks at the trade deadline.

Kawhi Leonard can still opt-out and inexplicably sign a contract with the Knicks. Same for CP3.

We can also sign the various corpses of Dwight Howard, Rudy Gay, LaMarcus Aldridge, Demar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry, and More!

Or we can go with Rudy Gobert and keep Mitch on the bench for another year.

We have so many options.

In order to prioritize spacing on this team, the Knicks will have to play guys who do not give us the best chance to win. Tom Thibodeau is not going to do that, and he never was going to do that.

I mean, how is Thibs supposed to spread the floor with this team? The only reliable 3 point shooters are burkes and bullocks, both of whom are in the rotation all ready.

Completely agree. You’re not going to make a lot of 3-pointers or have great spacing if you have three non-shooters on the floor all the time.

It’s why the team is likely to be pretty bad, why we’re going to have one of the worst offenses in the league again. We’re rolling with lots of low-eFG% players, thus we’re going to have a terrible team eFG%, thus we’re going to have a terrible offense.

There’s no coaching in the world that is going to remedy that.

He’s obviously not going to be star and there are some off the court issues from his youth that turned people off, 

Ah, to be a professional athlete and raping a woman gets framed as “some off the court issues from his youth that turned people off.”

Isn’t Beal available next year? (I might be misremembering that.) This is as magical dreamland as wishcasting gets, but Cade Cunningham + Beal + Barrett + Toppin + Mitch/Noel is not the worst foundation of a potentially good team. Beal’s still only 27, and he’s coming off a year where he averaged 30/4/6 on reasonable efficiency. I can’t think of an actual reason why Beal would want to come here, though, with us being one of the few destinations that isn’t more attractive by default than the Wizards.

I vote “Crossing the Reubicon” be for when a troll crosses the line and gets banned, with a colloquial usage for when the Knicks’ shiny new management does the signature Stupid Move (TM) that causes all of us to collectively lose hope and sink a little deeper into our communal despair.

The best hope for our spacing is either moving Randle or him improving on his shooting from two years ago.

If we remove Randle, then we have Toppin, Knox, and Spellman as our PFs. Toppin and Knox both have upside potential from three and Spellman can shoot. If we don’t move Randle, maybe he can prove that last year was the outlier and not two years ago and shoot over 34% from 3 again. Both outcomes seem unlikely but if we can get reliable spacing from the 4 then our overall spacing starts to look a lot better.

While Barrett probably won’t all of a sudden become a great shooter I am hoping that he will be just good enough to force teams to guard him which will help with spacing. Rivers and Ntilikina provide a similar mediocre but just good enough to force defenses to respect them from 3 type shot.

Finally, we should bench, trade, or cut DSj.

So if we get rid of DSj, Barrett shoots just good enough to keep defenses honest, and Randle either gets moved or shoots better, then only Payton and the centers will be zeros from 3 and our spacing could be simply mediocre rather than abjectly poor. Unlikely, but really our only hope to have a functional offense.

“Crossing the Reubicon”

It’s a good one, Z-man. It has an obvious use for trolling behavior, but also expressing an opinion that provokes intense disgust, like saying that Dotson had some “off-the-field issues” instead of saying “he raped a woman in a bathroom and evaded prosecution because of his University of Oregon connections and a culture of slut-shaming and targeted harassment.”

I also might suggest calling a poster “a naturalized citizen of Ruruland” when he insistently touts a mediocre player as a superstar. R.J. Barrett is going to be the catalyst of a real population boom. The diaspora has already begun.

jazzfunk:
Quickley, Frank, RJ, Obi and Mitch is the lineup that I want to see. Substitute Noel when Mitch falls for 800th headfake and has to come out.Bring Randle in for Obi to slow the game down and allow Thibs to take a baby aspirin.Burks for Frank is ok too,Who cares about the others.

There’s no reason whatsoever that lineup can’t be the starting lineup. It would be way better if it was the starting lineup. The only reason it wouldn’t work is if Quickley can’t play a lick, but that should be seen, not worried about.

This team simply should not be building its offense around Elfrid Payton and Julius Randle. It’s that simple. Anytime a thought enters your brain to the contrary, it should be expelled. Keep it simple. If it has to be repeated 10-15 times a day to truly seep in, then do it.

This team should not be building its offense around Elfrid Payton and Julius Randle.

I made a meme for you animals: https://i.imgur.com/gdbV93p.png

Enjoy – I wasted like ten minutes sloppily editing that in Powerpoint instead of pretending to be productive.

Hopefully, we’ll just keep loading up on draft picks (and only waste about half of them) like other rebuilding teams. Then, when there’s a Harden-style trade demand, we can pounce. Otherwise, we need to look at free agents in, like, 2023, when we should be better (at around the .500 mark). That seems to be “how it’s done.”

Mike Honcho:
I made a meme for you animals: https://i.imgur.com/gdbV93p.png

Enjoy – I wasted like ten minutes sloppily editing that in Powerpoint instead of pretending to be productive.

I enjoyed this.

Also, ptmilo continues to be hilarious

@TheClashFan you can only cover up so much of the base meme template without doing more than a minimal effort. The meme is from the movie We’re the Millers, so two of the characters are Jennifer Aniston and Emma Roberts.

Unless one of us has been secretly funneling money to Dotson’s OnlyFans, I struggle to see how “all of us” are responsible (or should feel guilty) for him choosing to rape a girl in the bathroom. There may be a culture of slut-shaming and athlete-enabling that allowed him to duck the consequences of that choice, but that was still something he chose to do of his own free will and volition.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: what about

led you to use the word

as though it contributed anything new to my claim

I’m trying to understand how you could use the phrase “all of us” in this circumstance. Does not compute one bit. I did not sign him to a contract and I did not support him being on an NBA roster. I am not one of his enablers. Neither are many of us here on this board.

Because spending time on this board and so much time on sports generally results in the culture and the pedestal. It’s not a matter of enabling any particular player; it’s a matter of enabling the culture which enables the player.

I can certainly see why you’d be resistant to this conclusion, but it’s reality. Without the sports-industrial complex, there’s no looking the other way for athletes’ transgressions and crimes. We’re all part of that complex. I wish it hadn’t become as big as it became and that we were still in the days of the University of San Francisco ending its basketball program because of such transgressions only a few short years after it was a national power (Google Quinton Dailey and look through 1982 issues of SI in the SI Vault), but we’re unfortunately way beyond that now. I didn’t leave, so I’m guilty, too. I’ve accepted it.

we are going to have a pretty decent pick in a very good draft and THREE chances at a franchise altering talent…. the other pick could potentially land a very good starter…. and we are also going to have plenty of cap space and everything you don’t like about this team will be jettisoned to cleveland or oklahoma city…

this team is going to look dramatically different next year.. this year is really about giving last chances to guys to see what they got…. prognosticating on lineups and personnel choices this year is really just rearranging chairs on the titanic… it’s all going to be set ablaze in 6 months…

that also means people you don’t like are going to see a lot of time…. that’s good… this is what you call a freeroll…. if it gets us closer to cunningham, mobley or suggs then YOU DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN…. if they work out then maybe they can stick around…. we don’t have many options other than what we are already doing…

so sit tight.. root for your guys on this team… watch some college bball … and embrace hope… because this misery could actually end this offseason….

djphan:
we are going to have a pretty decent pick in a very good draft and THREE chances at a franchise altering talent

The chance of the worst team in the NBA picking 4th is 12%. Who wants to bet we pick 4th?

Yeah The Knicks need to sue their cap space and cheap vet contracts to take back a player on a longer deal and get another decent pick. We need to just keep amassing first round picks and let Payne and Thibs do their thing.

A woman is sexually assaulted in America every two minutes

just looked up the stats relating to women being assaulted, those are some really grim numbers…hopefully they’re trending in a positive direction…

edit: just read what you wrote z-man, well said…

final thought on this subject – there truly is tragedy all around us…

PS the article may have been planted as a puff piece, but as I said, nothing I have seen or heard has made me feel that the positive things said about him are anything but true. I also had the pleasure of meeting Damyean and shaking his hand at a school event (along with MitchRob, Big Shot Bob, and Adam Silver) and a NBA Cares event at my school. I had already believed that he was deserving of redemption by then, but there was something very genuine and humble about him that made me feel obligated to write this. Hopefully that doesn’t brand me as a rape apologist among my fellow KBers, but figured I’d take the risk.

Van Gundy was also impressed with Williamson’s free throw shooting as he went 10-of-11 from the line. The only times last season when Williamson, a 64% free throw shooter, shot above 90% were when he hit his only attempt against Utah in the bubble and when he knocked down both attempts against Cleveland on Feb. 28.

“The free throws, I feel like I’m going to get fouled a lot,” Williamson said. “That’s free money. I gotta make that.”

i like zion’s sense of humor…he’s going to be a handful around the basket if he starts going for a lot of rebounds…

Not seeing anything about Giannis getting a no trade clause with his extension… (edit: looks there’s a 15% trade kicker at least)

Was Melo the last guy to get a NTC? That would be pretty funny if true (Thanks Phil!)

Dink: Not seeing anything about Giannis getting a no trade clause with his extension…

I think extensions are ineligible for no-trade clauses (I don’t have any idea why). You also need at least 8 years in the league. So I think had Giannis waited until free-agency next year he could’ve asked for a no-trade but by signing his extension now he was ineligible. At least if I’m understanding correctly.

The Melo one was obviously absurd but part of the reason they’re so rare is that the eligibility rules are so stringent. Surely Lebron would have gotten one when he signed with LA for example except that he was ineligible.

Surely Lebron would have gotten one when he signed with LA for example except that he was ineligible.

I tried to think of a trade that wouldn’t have gotten LeBron’s GM excoriated. 2007’s Duncan, Manu, Parker and all eligible firsts? Kobe, Pau and Odom and all the firsts? Harden, Durant and Westbrook and all the firsts? Frank and Knox and a conditional 2nd swap?

I feel like Milwaukee could’ve probably gotten Harden for the package they sent out for Jrue if they’d just waited. And say what you will about Harden but he’s way, way better than Jrue and I would argue a better fit with Giannis (although I wouldn’t be surprised if Giannis disagreed).

I feel like Milwaukee could’ve probably gotten Harden for the package they sent out for Jrue if they’d just waited. And say what you will about Harden but he’s way, way better than Jrue and I would argue a better fit with Giannis (although I wouldn’t be surprised if Giannis disagreed).

I don’t think it was clear that Harden was going to be dealt, though, so they had to get who was available, provided (and I think it is likely that this is precisely what happened) that Giannis told me, “Get me one of these X guys.” That said, yes, it’s crazy that Holiday basically netted what you would typically give up for a guy on par with Harden.

If there were two concurrent simulations going on in Milwaukee, á la Sliding Doors, and one was that package for Jrue and the other was that same package for Harden, I think I would bet on the Jrue track having more team success for the Bucks than the Harden one.

Brian Cronin: Ah, to be a professional athlete and raping a woman gets framed as “some off the court issues from his youth that turned people off.”

I fully understand why many people wanted him out of here, but I wasn’t a witness, I’m not a lawyer, and I didn’t do a private investigation. Law enforcement did all that. I only read the conflicting statements.

I have an opinion on what happened, but he was not even indicted, let alone convicted.

At a certain point, unless you were in the room and KNOW what happened, you can be skeptical of how law enforcement handled it, wonder if there were payoffs or preferential treatment involved, etc… but you are innocent until proven guilty.

I think there’s a pretty good chance Kobe did as much or worse, KP may have done as much or worse, and there’s probably a long list of others that may be guilty or innocent in similar cases. What just don’t know what happened or he would have done time in jail.

So far, he has been in no further trouble and had no further accusations of improper behavior or worse. IMO if we were willing to sign him to start after reviewing the matter, we should have kept him. God (if there is one) can sort this out later. I don’t know what happened.

Obviously, I think Thibs has the right idea when he says the Knicks need star players and should aggressively pursue one using all options available (draft, trade, free agency) and not just sit around hoping to strike gold some day in the draft. We have some decent assets now and we also have cap space. I just don’t see anyone on the horizon we can make a move on. Maybe later in the season one or more players will be unhappy and ask for trade. If they do, I’m all for using our excess 1st round picks and a couple of young players to land someone that can actually move the chain forward as long as the price and player make sense.

the way real world works

how fucking stupid can one person be

Deeefense: Set aside what you think happened and your passions about the problem in general (that I agree are justified), an accusation should NOT destroy a person’s life.

As a general observation, you know, it’s interesting. While current fad seems to hold that passion leads to greater insight and wisdom, including as to empirical factual matters, the exact opposite is true. Excessive passion is an obstacle to those things. If someone comes into a police station or a deposition or a lawyer’s office and they’re seemingly really, really pissed off and emotional and every time you try to engage with them and figure out what they’re trying to say they’re just pissed off and emotional, the person trying to get to the factual truth will typically wait until they’re calmer and more in control.

Which isn’t to say passion doesn’t have its place in human affairs, certainly it does.

[quote]Obviously, I think Thibs has the right idea when he says the Knicks need star players and should aggressively pursue one using all options available (draft, trade, free agency) and not just sit around hoping to strike gold some day in the draft. We have some decent assets now and we also have cap space. I just don’t see anyone on the horizon we can make a move on. Maybe later in the season one or more players will be unhappy and ask for trade. If they do, I’m all for using our excess 1st round picks and a couple of young players to land someone that can actually move the chain forward as long as the price and player make sense.[/quote]

Substantively this makes sense; I was simply noting that it’s Thibs voicing this and thus already kind of being not with the program, agitated, and out of his lane. After two exhibition games. Most likely, he was told of a bunch of grandiose plans to get a star that would up crashing against lol Knicks, and he’s already frustrated. Kinda looks and sounds that way. There’s likely very little sense in which he thought he was signing up for … this.

E: Substantively this makes sense; I was simply noting that it’s Thibs voicing this and thus already kind of being not with the program, agitated, and out of his lane. After two exhibition games. Most likely, he was told of a bunch of grandiose plans to get a star that would up crashing against lol Knicks, and he’s already…

I’m sure he did not come to NY for a 76er-like 5-10 year rebuild program, but I don’t sense he’s being impatient. I sense he’s stating the obvious fact that we still suck despite already making a bunch of 1st round picks in recent years. He’s stating that we if we want to get somewhere we have to start thinking like Pat Riley, Jerry West and other more aggressive big market teams that have some assets and space and make things happen when an opportunity presents itself instead of just trying to draft out way there. I don’t think he’s advocating any bad deals just to move forward.

Generally a good heart, I’d agree — but even rapists are capable of redemption and growth. I’m pretty sure a lot of this modern unforgiving and passionate and strident tone is just internet theatrics, but the concepts of rehabilitation, forgiveness, redemption, growth are pretty timeless. And obviously the concepts of due process, innocent until proven guilty, cross-examination, confrontation of witnesses, fair trials, objective fact finding, proportionate punishment need no additional defense here.

I don’t trust the college process at all for dealing wIth sexual incidents at all. Often the accused doesn’t eve. Have a chance to tell his or her side of the story. In this case the college process punished Dotson even though the police and prosecutor chose not to pursue it. So I’m with Strat on this issue.

True, Dotson was the real victim here.

Brian Cronin: True, Dotson was the real victim here.

There is no way to tell.

Strat is Ken Starr

Dumbfuck boomer

Brian Cronin: OJ Simpson was never convicted of murder, we certainly can (and should) think he committed murder.

  

Because we all saw and heard evidence put up in a fair trial. Witnesses, physical evidence, questioning, cross-examination, the whole shebang. Wouldn’t have been possible with a police report of an interview of a single witness.

And if OJ Simpson was 30 and a star small forward and the Knicks hired him, I think you’d see a whole lot of people abandoning the Knicks. (Of course no NBA team would ever hire a cold-blooded murderer and that goes all the way up to Jordan or LeBron.) I certainly wouldn’t follow their every move with the borderline insanity I do now and I’d venture every single person here would say the same thing. I’d take a complete break.

So something else is going on to explain the difference between that extreme hypothetical on the one hand and the run of the mill Dameyon Dotsons on the other hand. Could be a lot of things, I won’t bother to speculate out loud.

I have not read the reports. Do they give Dotson’s side of the story as well as the accuser’s side of it?

I don’t find it at all insane to demand people be better, including pro-athletes.

E, are you accusing all NBA players of rape or even a substantial portion? Because that itself is quite a claim and incompatible with your other claims about finding people guilty only via legal trial.

Your position also ignores a lot of the realities of legal trials and problems intrinsic to prosecuting rape cases. For instance, Kobe Bryant’s case was about as open and shut as you can have in this sort of trial. Instead of trying the case in court, Kobe’s lawyers litigated via the press. The victim decided not to testify because she face severe public backlash and slut shaming before the trial had chance to start.

Then there’s real world examples of fans helping change a problematic industry. We can look to real world examples like the Me Too movement which started making progress expunging movie executives and problematic actors. Do you think everyone in the Me Too movement stopped watching movies or TV shows? No, that’s a ridiculous assertion that mirrors your own.

It’s exactly because there are fans like us who demand a higher level of accountability that change for the better is possible.

I have not read the reports. Do they give Dotson’s side of the story as well as the accuser’s side of it?

Yep.

dumbfuck boomer…pretty sure my wife or kids call me some variation of that theme on a daily basis…

“Why is it so hard for the Knicks to figure out what kids will become good pro ball players?”

We did find Mitch. But yeah, it’s literally amazing how the first couple of weeks of every season provides proof we blew it again….

LOL Boomers.

Not worried about Mitch yet but the way things are going is worrisome…

Guys, you gotta stop with the over reactions to preseason performances, good and bad.

The 46th pick in the draft, a guy named Talen Horton-Tucker, went off for 33 points for the Lakers the other night. The #1 pick in the draft has had two terrible preseason games.

It doesn’t mean anything.

Horton-Tucker was projected really highly by at least one statistical model out there — I forget which one, but they nailed it.

Apparently he is 6’4 with a 7’1 wingspan and weighs 235. I saw clips of him hitting a bunch of step back 17 footers so not sure I am a believer in the THT lifestyle quite yet. Lebron seems to be a big fan though.

The Dotson rape case is troubling on it’s own. I don’t want to discuss his situation specifically, but instead, I want to lump in all the other crimes that pro athletes committed or are accused of committing. Look at players like Ray Lewis, Ray Rice, Roger Vick, Jason Williams, Lenny Dykstra, Ugueth Urbina, Jason Kidd, Domingo German & yeah, add OJ Simpson as a group. Add cheaters Barry Bonds and Pete Rose. They were accused and/or were convicted of doing reprehensible things.

They should be punished. We all agree. Where there will be disagreement is forgiveness. Can they ever be forgiven? Personally, I have trouble forgiving but I have not been perfect. I would smack young me around. Some people’s biggest regret is something they said but many regret things that they did, some worse than others. Have you driven tipsy? Did you ever steal? Cheat on a person or a test? Sold drugs? I don’t need your answers to the rhetorical question. Statistics will only show those who are caught but if you’re the rare saint, good for you. I believe that a large percent of the world has skeletons in the closet.

A long time ago I came to terms with the issue and accept that if convicted and punished, I accept the punishment as debt fulfilled. I will root for the player to do well for my teams but the no longer have my respect. They will never gain that. I will not buy their jerseys. I will not root for them as people.

I understand both sides of this issue and accept that the extreme opinions are all valid. It is as understandable to forgive as it is to continue to despise and shun. IMO there are ethical arguments that support both attitudes.

The DSJ, Frank, Knox era in NY should be over already.
I have not seen appreciable change in their games. Knox continues to be lost out there. DSJ lacks the vision and Frank is almost exactly the same guy, long defender, timid and not an offensive player.
Only Frank could fit into a Thibs team simply because of his defense, but one dimensional.

So tired of relying on players that would either be bench or G league types on other teams.

How is it that this team hasn’t made getting a point guard its top priority???

Rapistredemptionblogger

All Mitch has to do is cut down the fouls and he’s a starter in this league. And we’ve seen periods where he’s done that. At the end of his rookie year when DeAndre was on the team and also the end of last year under Miller. I think maybe he’s regressed a bit on fouling too much simply because he hasn’t played a competitive game since March. So I think he’ll get better in a few weeks.

I think the questions about Mitch are more about whether there’s really as much upside as many of us hoped given his excellent production at such a young age. He has struggled to make much tangible progress at even picking the very low hanging fruit for his improvement – just stop doing so many dumb fouls! – that it becomes harder and harder for me to believe that he’s eventually going to make the more challenging leap to actual stardom.

Alan:
Meanwhile, trying hard not to freak out about one bad preseason game from Obi while players picked after him — and, for that matter, after Quickley — have played more consistently well. As Jowles would say, we’re talkin’ ’bout preseason?!?!

The problem with Obi is that this is kinda supposed to be it with a 22yo. He should improve some, but really needs to show he’s a positive almost immediately. He was the oldest Knick on the court at one point last game.

So I don’t think it’s that crazy to panic when he has bad games. I mean 1 game, probably too soon, but still.

Also, he should be in better shape/more ready than the vets. Presumably he’s been pushing himself getting ready for private workouts ahead of the draft. They’re not games but he and Quickley should be more game ready than the vets.

Meh, if two 3-pointers, literally two shots, bounce in instead of out in Sunday’s game everyone would be saying Obi was off to a pretty good start. I know we all have Knicks-related PTSD and are inclined to see the storm of the century at the first gathering gray cloud, but you just can’t make a judgment off this sample size.

Obi will be fine. People were gushing over him after the first game. Then he had a bad game. He literally just started his NBA career. The idea that a 22 year old rookie who is in the preseason is a finished product or even close to a finished product is ridiculous.

If you want to argue that everyone who follows sports closely is complicit in some degree of unethical behavior, that’s sensible. Making the logical leap from that to “no one who follows sports has standing to criticize a known rapist in Damyean Dotson” is a total crock of shit, and conveniently absolves you of having to grapple with your own feelings, assuming you have any.

I have not read the reports. Do they give Dotson’s side of the story as well as the accuser’s side of it?

Then perhaps you shouldn’t have weighed in so strongly. Most of the accounts I’ve read on the matter quote Dotson extensively.

Having said all of this, I do believe in one’s ability to change even after doing something heinous. I am not saying Dotson should be banned from employment, or even basketball related employment, for life. I have no perfect answer to all of the questions presented, but I do know that I wasn’t comfortable rooting for him and Rose at all and nothing about being a sports fan in general makes those feelings invalid.

We can’t just “lol, Knox maybe shoots? Eventually?” with Obi.

Nah, Obi already has a much higher floor than Knox. His post game alone is so much more advanced than anything even the occasional good version of Knox (summer league, Rookie of the Month) has displayed. He may be a bad pick, but he won’t be someone whose continued presence in the league by his third season seems questionable.

I also believe Thibs when he says the focus on training camp was defense and not offense. A lot of coaches say that stuff before the season starts but with Thibs I believe it. I expect the offense in general to be wonky for the first part of the season at least and for him to rely on the starting unit that closed out the year for a bit.

Thibs and Rose are on a different timeline than the fans. I know Thibs doesn’t want to tank and will try to win every game he can but I also suspect he knows how far this roster has to go before it can really compete. His star comments yesterday were taken out of context but the point remains that ultimately until we have a star, we aren’t going to be good. Maybe RJ emerges as that guy this year or we draft that player or we do swing a trade for one. But I believe Rose and Thibs will be patient. The knicks twitterverse and social media world is going to panic over this stuff and the challenge for them will be not to give in to it. Its one of the reasons why I’m glad there won’t be fans. Not having to hear the boo birds this season will hopefully give them time to grow this thing at a slower, more organic pace.

https://twitter.com/NY_KnicksPR/status/1339248341616570368

MKG, Frank, Rivers, and Noel all doubtful tonight.

Looks like we’ll get all the Mitch we can handle, maybe some Spellman too.

It’s amazing how irrelevant all the Frank debates are when you consider he can’t go, like, 3 consecutive games in which he takes 2-3 shots each without getting injured.

thenoblefacehumper: Looks like we’ll get all the Mitch we can handle, maybe some Spellman too.

There’s no amount of Mitch I can’t handle and wouldn’t shoot directly into my veins. The issue is with Mitch’s hands.

Forget it, Jowles. It’s KnickerbloggerTown.

thenoblefacehumper: Having said all of this, I do believe in one’s ability to change even after doing something heinous. I am not saying Dotson should be banned from employment, or even basketball related employment, for life. I have no perfect answer to all of the questions presented, but I do know that I wasn’t comfortable rooting for him and Rose at all and nothing about being a sports fan in general makes those feelings invalid.

In general, I don’t hold athletes up to be role models and have rooted for some who have had known allegations, and even convictions for serious offenses. Again, I think Dotson is a special case. It’s a complicated discussion involving age, race, class, criminal justice in a racist society, athletes and privilege, clarity regarding specific circumstances, mitigating factors, character outside of the incident, and behavior post-incident. For me, I don’t think our final judgments about anyone’s life should boil down to a decision made on a single night at the age of 19. Damyean can’t change the decisions he made that night. Nothing he has done in the aftermath of the incident, either just afterwards or ever since, has given even the faintest hint of entitlement or sociopathy. If he is not worthy of redemption, then does the concept really exist?

In short, I don’t think the Damyean Dotson of that night exists any more. I would have no problem hiring to work in my school (i.e. would stake my onw reputation on him) unless I learned something additional beyond what I already know.

Damyean can’t change the decisions he made that night. Nothing he has done in the aftermath of the incident, either just afterwards or ever since, has given even the faintest hint of entitlement or sociopathy. If he is not worthy of redemption, then does the concept really exist?

also he gangraped a woman

The Honorable Cock Jowles: also he gangraped a woman

To be fair (and I’m not taking sides) you did nIt answer the question. Does rehabilitation exist in your opinion? Would we rather have DD (or any other young person who we will presume as guilty) rehabilitated to the degree it SEEMS DD has and positively contributing to society or in jail? His position as an athlete notwithstanding.

It’s a perfectly reasonable question.