NY Post: Frank Ntilikina still searching for role at key Knicks juncture

Is Frank a good player? It’s worth a discussion, I think.

Fun trivia question. For this upcoming season, there are four pairs of teammates who were both #1 overall picks in the NBA Draft. Can you name the four pairs?

thank you for putting me out of my misery build around mitch, I could only think of the twolves…

This reminds me now that 76ers will replace the Lakers as the team with 3 #1 picks, counting Elton Brand… Maybe 2021 is their year?

I more or less agree with the consensus in the media that it’s going to be hard to justify Frank’s qualifying offer and cap hold unless he brings more to the table on offense this year. But to me, that’s a shame. It’s one of the downsides of drafting very young payers and projects I always talk about. By definition a project is going to take several years to even start looking like a real NBA player – all while you are overpaying him. And because they are so young to start, you often still have to make a decision to extend before you know what you have. The thing is, he’s not going to be easy to trade. I guarantee you there are a lot of very smart basketball people that would love to have him. But they don’t want to pay him 8 million or whatever the cap hold is based on what he’s shown so far. They want him on the cheap because they see the defense and other qualities and understand what he might become with any development on offense at all. They want to laugh at the Knicks later. It’s a tough problem. Frank has to show enough THIS YEAR to justify keeping him even though his peak is probably still 3-4 years away.

(I voted for Payton to start at PG)

The Frank of two games ago (the 20 and 10 in DC) is without question the best PG on the team. The one the next night in ATL in the Knicks’ last game is … not. That’s where he is right now. Not enough Good Frank to get overly excited about, but a lot of us root for Good Frank and rightly so.

I detest the idea that Scott Perry has any say in this and detest the idea that Frank has had to grow and develop under people like Steve Mills and Scott Perry and David Fizdale.

I mean, come on, even the most supportive fans of Frank don’t think that the Knicks are going to sign him to an extension. That’s basically just trolling.

brian.. i know you’re in the kb bubble but i don’t think you know what these ppl are capable of…..

If you have Frank rightly pegged as Strat and I do, as an 8th man who can play shutdown defense in playoff games, you have to sign him to an extension. If you want him on your team he kind of has to be … you know … under contract. If he continues to show improvement this year, and more closely resembles 20/10 DC guy more frequently, it’s a no-brainer to extend him.

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
Wall (2010) and Harden (3)
Wiggins (2014, lol) and Wiseman (2)
Fultz (2017) and whoever else is on the Magic (who cares) — he didn’t change teams, did he?
Kyrie (2011) and Durant (2)
Ayton (2018) and Paul (3)
Zion (2019) and Ingram (2)

Wiggins and Wiseman is hilarious as there’s (at least) 3 players better than them on the team. From the rest of the list, another funny thing is that no number1* is the best player on the team. What about that?

* – Maybe Zion will do it this year.

Early Bird: I’ve definitely seen both their names on the same roster in the last week or so. It still would not have occurred to me they were both #1 picks on the same team.

And back-to-back #1s. Weird.

Here’s a question:

Out of the #1 overall picks of the lottery era, Kyrie Irving has the best career FT% at 87.7. At 83.3%, who is #2?

LeBron and AD are neck and neck as best player on the Lakers, although LeBron’s due to drop off considerably any day now. Any day now…

And Ben Simmons seems like he’s been in the league forever. Might just be the way he plays.

i voted for frank – because i could…

We haven’t talked about Frank for at least a day or two; glad to see Berman saw fit to toss some red meat our way to gnaw on until preseason starts

Ugh, yeah, I don’t know why I did that. I think I double posted too soooooo

Rather than wade into The Frank Discourse again, some sound bytes from practice:

@JCMacriNBA
Thibs regarding Mitchell Robinson: Spoke a lot about his limitless upside, and notes at the end that “if he’s willing to work to make the commitment, there’s no telling what he can do.”

@JCMacriNBA
Knicks can put any players they want in front of the camera for media availability, and only do two per day. First player today? Mitchell Robinson.

Given all the chatter, I’d say this is notable.

@NYPost_Berman
Thibodeau says Kevin Knox has had two very good practices so far. Good sign.

@NYPost_Berman
Thibodeau also said Austin Rivers has had a minor groin pull and has practiced only limitedly.

Barring some significant improvement in the offseason from DSJ or Frank anyone voting for someone besides Payton needs their head examined. He’s not that good but he’s miles better than any of our other options.

He’s not better than DC Frank.

@JCMacriNBA
I asked Mitch how Tom Thibodeau’s practices differ from past coaches he’s had: “More of a defensive style coach, not much offense.”

Says Thibs focuses on how stops/turnovers can turn into buckets & focus has been squarely on that end of the court. Echoes Thibs words yesterday.

This tracks with what a couple of the other beat writers have said: Thibs for the moment is focusing almost entirely on defensive schemes. This makes some sense, since the majority of the guys in camp are fundamentally bad defenders, and there’s only so much the new coaching staff can install in such an abbreviated offseason. Plus, most of the players we added in the draft and free agency are shooters and/or guys who can create their own offense. But in terms of developing RJ and some of our other young players, I hope there’s eventually more of an offensive design than asking for Payton or DSJ to do their best young DRose impression.

as Strat and I do, as an 8th man who can play shutdown defense in playoff games, you have to sign him to an extension.

Problem is he also plays shutdown offense

E:
If you have Frank rightly pegged as Strat and I do, as an 8th man who can play shutdown defense in playoff games, you have to sign him to an extension.If you want him on your team he kind of has to be … you know … under contract.If he continues to show improvement this year, and more closely resembles 20/10 DC guy more frequently, it’s a no-brainer to extend him.

Think of what they paid for some of the trash they signed under Mills/Perry. Most were guys that were a negative on both sides of the ball with almost no chance of developing one side, let alone both. lol

if CAA were Frank’s agents they should have a good idea what sort of interest there is in him around the league.

According to Bondy, Thibs also said that when Knox takes good shots, they go in. Make of it what you will.

I’m assuming lots of 3 on 3’s?

And now I’m sobbing. Though possibly while also laughing. Thanks, D-Mar!

According to Bondy, Thibs also said that when Knox takes good shots, they go in. Make of it what you will.

It’s the thing we’ve all kind of said at one point or another. Knox has absolutely perfect form and rotation on his shots… sometimes. Finding more consistency on that doesn’t solve the many other problems our resident giraffe on roller skates has with the game of basketball, but it turns him from absolute joke into a playable member of the rotation.

It’s kind of like buying stock options on some company that’s losing a fortune now because you see a very bright future, but the options you bought will expire worthless before you are eventually proven correct. So someone else will make all the money even though they weren’t smart enough to the see the future as well as you did .

Stock gambling, horse gambling, Frank gambling. “Only I can see the future.” Three sides to the same coin.

You can sometimes outsmart yourself.

And also outdumb yourself.

He’s not better than DC Frank.

I like how he’s appeared in 178 contests, playing >30 minutes in 42 of them, and he’s only scored 20 points once. So of course, we point to that game and say, “This is the real Frank.”

The Honorable Cock Jowles: I like how he’s appeared in 178 contests, playing >30 minutes in 42 of them, and he’s only scored 20 points once. So of course, we point to that game and say, “This is the real Frank.”

Actually, I’ve said the opposite as a fair perusal of my comment on the matter would indicate. I’ll reiterate that we don’t see DC Frank enough and ultimately that’s on Frank. This comment in particular was merely addressed to the point that Payton is not better than DC Frank, and he in fact is not.

I’m not sure what the minutes data point is bringing to the table. He’s been shittily coached and managed and hasn’t been played as much as he should have been. You can check yourself into a hospital, not so much an NBA basketball game.

Yeah I’ve made this point before but the only type of extension offer that would make sense would come across as insulting. You just can’t really offer someone a 4/$8M extension.

Heck, look at how Austin Rivers left a good Houston team where he was a rotation player for a $600,000 raise with a bad Knicks team! Yeah, players are weird about money and ego.

Anybody else having trouble with The Athletic today?

After it taking several tries to get their site to actually authorize my payment and sub, all went well for a few days. However, now I can’t read anything all the way through. I’m still getting email alerts to articles, but I’m getting the box trying to get me to sub, again. I’ve logged in several times, but still not getting full articles.

My sub started on 11/27, so not even a full month has gone by, yet. I got an email confirmation, PayPal payment receipt, etc.

I picked Frank fuck you

Why not Quickley? He was recruited as a point guard. He has the shooting touch and offensive instincts that Frank does not have. As for his defense –

If he gets fouled – we know he can make Free throws. DSjr…really? Frank….again for the 3rd time? Payton?

TheClashFan: Anybody else having trouble with The Athletic today?

I’m not having any issues.

jazzfunk:
Why not Quickley?He was recruited as a point guard.He has the shooting touch and offensive instincts that Frank does not have.As for his defense –

If he gets fouled – we know he can make Free throws.DSjr…really?Frank….again for the 3rd time?Payton?

I hope they find a way to get Quickley some minutes in what looks like a crowded backup situation but rookies are bad, and rookies drafted late in the first round are not likely to be doing anything other than throwing games if put out there as starters in year 1. The same script plays out every year with later draft picks where people start reading up on them (and usually summer league plays a role) and go from “never heard of this guy” to “seems interesting” to “we have to get this guy minutes” in the blink of an eye. Quickley could be in the 90th+ percentile of players drafted in the mid-20s and still be extremely unproductive this season.

I’d rather see DSJ than Payton, though as I’ve said, I don’t have much hope for a breakthrough. Last year, he affirmatively damaged the other players on the court and the lineups generally. That can’t happen.

The thing about the eye test is that most of the laypeople on here who think they’re qualified to make eye test judgments aren’t really qualified. So what they’ll claim is eye test is really just personal bias.

You would-be NBA scouts are not actually NBA scouts, you’re fans. You many get some things “right” from time to time but we all know the parable of the blind squirrel and the nut.

JK47:
The thing about the eye test is that most of the laypeople on here who think they’re qualified to make eye test judgments aren’t really qualified. So what they’ll claim is eye test is really just personal bias.

You would-be NBA scouts are not actually NBA scouts, you’re fans. You many get some things “right” from time to time but we all know the parable of the blind squirrel and the nut.

Fair. That said, the default regression from not being able to execute the eye test isn’t “look only at the numbers or you’re a basketball idiot you hate science do you deny climate change too,” which is the template we typically see. It’s a false one.

Hopefully everyone here can recognize shitty shooting form when they see it. Perhaps that’s assuming too much; I don’t really know.

We should also distinguish between the “actually serious scouting eye test” — “Dennis Smith Jr. has shitty shooting form” — and the “I’m a basketball fan and a fan of human beings and so I have preference observation” — “I really don’t want to see Julius Randle and Elfrid Payton be an engine of the Knicks again.

Early Bird: In other words, “The numbers were bad, but you actually need the eyetest to see that.” Uh, no.

No one thought DSJr was good based on the numbers he put up in years 1 & 2. However, there was a clear progression from year 1 & 2.

He upped his 2p fg%, 3pfg% (at least on DAL), stls/36. Again, no one thought that DSJr was a good player in years 1 &2. But if he continued increasing his efficiency, then you could end up with an NBA PG by the time he’s 24 or 25.

There was nothing about the guy that would lead you to think he’d have the hoped-for “progression,” or “increased efficiency,” (*) either on the court or attitudinally. Which is why Dallas cut bait on him real early (upon which he demonstrated exactly why by pouting and essentially quitting.)

I have no issue with one hopeful last flyer, but I wouldn’t expect it to succeed. Maybe I’ll be wrong.

(*) Eye test stuff leads “efficiency,” not the other way around.

There was nothing about the guy that would lead you to think he’d have the hoped-for “progression,” or “increased efficiency,” (*) either on the court or attitudinally.

What about the empirical progression that occurred, via increased efficiency?

John Wall, Derrick Rose, De’Aaron Fox, Lonzo Ball, and plenty of others all fit this mold to some degree.

point guards in particular tend to struggle early on and it’s not just these guys… the universe is much bigger… it’s guys like lowry…kemba.. chauncey… dragic… nash…. bledsoe… i mean you name every pg in the nba not named chris paul and the whole point guards struggling early is basically the norm…

and the reason for that is that is because they have to make the most adjustment…. getting to the hoop is quite possibly the starkest difference any player will face when moving up from hs to college to the pros… and tightening your handle to get past nba level guards and then finishing over a tandem of 7 footers is almost as difficult as hitting a 100mph fastball.. you need superhuman ability to do that…. and part of this developed much earlier but to get to a level of efficiency where you’re GOOD at it.. that takes some time…

and when you’re the shortest guy on the court it stands to reason it takes a little while to find ways to be successful when everyone else is 6 -12 inches taller than you…

it’s a close analog to the rj discussion… pedigree also matters because if you were dominant at the college level you probably just need some time to figure things out at the next level… because it’s certainly not going to be the guys who couldn’t do it against 6ft 7 300lb centers….. the guys that tend to eventually figure it out already SHOWED it vs weaker competition at a younger age….

it’s not a GUARANTEE tho…. but this is what you’re starting to see with brandon ingram… who i’ve argued about… and also with markelle fultz… people gave up on him a long time ago and it looks like he’s working himself back to something of a career…. and that’s sort of why you shouldn’t bury dsj… there’s hope…

E: Was never going to lead to a “standard” Year 3 for the reasons I’ve described.

You can get better at hitting shots even with a bad form. You can get better at finishing at the rim. You can get to the rim more. You can take fewer stupid shots.

The above are all methods to increase efficiency that the eyetest will miss or at least the layperson eyetest you describe will miss. As a matter of empirical fact, he did take a higher percentage of shots at the rim in year 2 than in year 1. He also went from atrocious midrange shooting to a normal player’s bad midrange shooting.

I see no reason he couldn’t continue to maintain league averagish midrange shooting while taking a higher percent of shots at the rim.

He could also revamp his shooting form, which by your prognosis will lead to increased efficiency. You know, what he actually attempted to do.

He also shot unbelievably well in the U-18 tournament

i said this a lot at the time but u-18s does not mean much… its’ like being a high school senior or a college senior… you are expected to dominate and frank did not dominate… he didn’t even put up a 50% 2p fg in that environment…. he was an inefficient volume scorer….

that he turned around and then morphed into a low usage inefficient scorer against older competition in france was the most concerning part…. the only hope was that his french coach didn’t know what he was doing but we now know that he didn’t have anything to do with that….

ptmilo:
here’s a thread where we talked about dsj during his 2nd year, before the trade and the burden of seeing too much.

https://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-2018-12-29/

It is worth pointing out that his DAL/NYK splits are kinda weird. In NY, his FT% dropped from .695 to .568. His TS% dropped back to year 1 levels (his 3p% was terrible in NY). His ASTs went up and TOVs dropped. Not sure how much of that was role versus random noise versus team, but he looked different in NY than in DAL. Just worth noting based on when that thread took place compared to where he ended that season/what we saw in NY.

Boston game December 1, 17 points , 7 assists, minus-5 in 38 minutes and then the next game Fizdale made him a starter and gave Frank 0 minutes and Smith proceeded to go 1-7, minus-28 in 25 minutes in a 40 point blowout to the Bucks. Comical. If you want to know why some of us sometimes wonder about how Frank’s been treated and developed look no further than that absurdity and Fizdale looking longingly at Emmanuel Mudiay in his intro press conference and solemnly intoning, “We’re going to get you better.”

E:
Boston game December 1, 17 points , 7 assists, minus-5 in 38 minutes and then the next game Fizdale made him a starter and gave Frank 0 minutes and Smith proceeded to go 1-7, minus-28 in 25 minutes in a 40 point blowout to the Bucks.Comical.If you want to know why some of us sometimes wonder about how Frank’s been treated and developed look no further than that absurdity and Fizdale looking longingly at Emmanuel Mudiay in his intro press conference and solemnly intoning, “We’re going to get you better.”

If you want to discuss how good DSJr is or isn’t, then I’m more than happy to do so. I’m not terribly interested in discussing whether Frank is better than ‘x’ for the billionth time. DSJr’s potential has no bearing on Frank’s potential.

There is no question that there are DS Jr detractors here. This much is for sure. No matter who Thibs starts at PG, there’s a strong argument against that choice. There isn’t even a decent choice.

Gotta be honest, I think this player empowerment stuff has gone a way too far. If I’m the Rockets and Harden 12 months ago forced me to trade Chris Paul and all my draft picks for Westbrook then just forced me to trade Westbrook for broken John Wall, I would basically not let him force me to do anything going forward.

He’s under contract for 2 more years — basically the most prime of his prime years. The Rockets would actually be best off trading him for nothing but picks, and even better than nothing but picks is to make sure they end up in the top 4 this year when there’s a generational draft class and they only keep their pick if it’s in the top 4. If Harden plays, the Rockets win games, which is not what they want. So Harden can go to strip clubs all year as far as I’m concerned. I’d just fine him and get his $35MM salary back or whatever.

he can show up and try to be a malcontent, but he’s not Jimmy Butler – he doesn’t have the personality for that. And if he’s REALLY malcontent, then the Rockets can only get worse, which only helps their draft position. And meanwhile, his prime is drip dripping away.

The best thing for the Rockets is that they win (not games) if he stays away. It’s not like teams will change their trade offers based on whether he plays or not. If he really wants to put pressure on the Rockets, he’ll play and play well, and force them to trade him just so they don’t win games.

Frank:
Gotta be honest, I think this player empowerment stuff has gone a way too far.If I’m the Rockets and Harden 12 months ago forced me to trade Chris Paul and all my draft picks for Westbrook then just forced me to trade Westbrook for broken John Wall, I would basically not let him force me to do anything going forward.

He’s under contract for 2 more years — basically the most prime of his prime years.The Rockets would actually be best off trading him for nothing but picks, and even better than nothing but picks is to make sure they end up in the top 4 this year when there’s a generational draft class and they only keep their pick if it’s in the top 4.If Harden plays, the Rockets win games, which is not what they want.So Harden can go to strip clubs all year as far as I’m concerned. I’d just fine him and get his $35MM salary back or whatever.

he can show up and try to be a malcontent, but he’s not Jimmy Butler – he doesn’t have the personality for that.And if he’s REALLY malcontent, then the Rockets can only get worse, which only helps their draft position. And meanwhile, his prime is drip dripping away.

My understanding is the owner has more say in what’s going on than he should. So if Harden is involved in shipping out CP3, it was only with the owner’s blessing. IDK, someone here probably knows more than I do.

I think it’s pretty telling that Morey & D’Antoni both left a fairly successful franchise.

If making the conference finals every year and being a perennial championship threat is Knicks South, then I suggest we move the Knicks further south.

Gotta be honest, I think this player empowerment stuff has gone a way too far. If I’m the Rockets and Harden 12 months ago forced me to trade Chris Paul and all my draft picks for Westbrook then just forced me to trade Westbrook for broken John Wall, I would basically not let him force me to do anything going forward.

The thing is, the movement towards “player empowerment” has not been the result of the benevolence of owners and front offices. It’s actually been fueled by owners and front offices recognizing their own interests.

Harden can’t “force” the Rockets to do anything. What he can do is make it clear he won’t re-sign in 2 years and possibly not play at full capacity during that time. With that information the Rockets are free to do whatever they want, but their interests are aligned with Harden’s at that point: the rational motivation for both parties is to get Harden traded to another team.

They can also try to ignore any list of desired destinations he may have, but that’s much easier said than done because teams not on that list won’t be ponying up for him knowing he very well may be gone in two years. Again, everyone is just acting in their own interests here. If a team not on Harden’s list offers them the best package, they’ll take it in a heartbeat. See Leonard, Kawhi.

If Harden refuses to show up to games while fully healthy, there are remedies the Rockets can pursue under the CBA. It’s a better outcome for the Rockets to trade him for a lot of assets than it is for them to go down that road, though.

I dunno, a lot of hay is made about the player empowerment movement but I really just see a bunch of rational actors doing a bunch of rational things.

If Harden refuses to show up to games while fully healthy, there are remedies the Rockets can pursue under the CBA. It’s a better outcome for the Rockets to trade him for a lot of assets than it is for them to go down that road, though.

This is the part i was talking about. It really takes a lot of gumption to force the trade of two certain HoFers (CP3 and Westbrook) plus all the collateral damage of draft picks, then when you look around at all the wreckage, say yeah I’m outta here, and then do a holdout.

Training camp is part of a player’s responsibility. If he doesn’t want to fulfill his contract, then the Rockets should fine him for every day he misses. What is the downside of that? That Harden will be even more upset? Certainly will not change his trade value one iota. I would hate it Fertita owned my team, but I would totally support that strategy. This isn’t even a Lebron situation – sure he forced a bunch of win-now moves, but none of them were as injurious as the ones Harden forced. And Lebron actually won a championship for cleveland, and gave himself maximum flexibility with the 1-and-1s.

It’s so distasteful.

Yal..
I keep seein and hearing Buddy Hield’s name in Knickery. There was allegedly talks of Randle and Ntilikina goin to Sacramento for him? Would you make that trade? I’m leaning towards no because if that rumor is true, that would mean Thibs & co has faith in DSJ, and is willing to sacrifice our best perimeter defender for the promise of DSJ & Quickley. Don’t get me wrong, I’d LOVE to see Quickley develop into our starting PG. But that’s not likely to happen in year one. I guess we’d hafta clear the PG glut, but I’d rather offer up Randle and Bullock. Like him or not, Hield actually makes this team better. His presence not only opens the floor for Mitch, Obi, and RJ- but it also moves RJ to his best position full time. I’d have no issue with trading for him if he’s still available, I’m just not sure I’d give up Ntilikina in the deal.

But..there are whispers about Ntilikina not wanting to play off the ball..so..I dunno

It’s not really even a “movement” anyway. NBA stars have always been able to get out of situations they didn’t want to be in. The NBA is a players league, always has been, always will be. Zero sleep lost. I mean, yeah, Harden was a dick for getting other guys shipped out but the Rockets FO should have just told him no.

Deeefense: It’s not foolish to see a kid that’s a plus defender at age 18 (when most can’t even spell defense) that also understands how to play winning basketball at that age and make a bet that his high basketball IQ and work ethic will eventually turn him into a very useful plus player.

I posted this on the last thread not realizing it was dead: Can someone explain Frank’s high basketball IQ to me? He’s really good man defender who’s invisible off of the ball. Other than jumping the occasional screen he’s shown nothing in the way of sniffing out plays before they happen. And I guess his refusal to shoot is smart given how poorly he does it but that’s about the only sign of offensive intelligence.He’s excruciatingly passive- not a sign of a guy who knows exactly what he should be doing. Frank seems like a bright kid but basketball IQ is a lot different than standard IQ. Jeremy Lin went to Harvard and I’d say his basketball IQ was definitely on the low side.

Early Bird:
BK-Ref finally updated Kyrie’s nicknames.

To Kyrie’s eye test the world appears to be flat! 😀

Tillman Fertita is absolutely the new James Dolan. I don’t think Harden can force his way to Brooklyn precisely because of that Knicks South mentality, and simply because they can’t offer the best package. If I had to bet on any non-Nets team to land Harden, it’s a toss up between Morey’s 76ers and Golden State.

I also wouldn’t be shocked if the “James Harden thinks the Rockets are Knicks South” rhetoric came because somebody knew if they put “James Harden” and “Knicks” in the same tweet they’d get a ton of impressions.

Does that make us the Rockets of the North?

We can’t make a successful trade proposal for Harden, so no need to worry about this, right?

I’m a known Frankbitch but voted for Elf.
Seems like the safest choice until our young PGs (PuppyGuards) mature enough to inspire trust.

Maybe the balance of the NBA is like this: if the Knicks are a mess everybody else is fine, if the Knicks are fine everybody else is a mess.

Alan: All is well everywhere!

This is the I guy I touted as potential rookie of the year. Great.

I think Draymond and Wiseman either tested positive for or were exposed to COVID and Kerr is just abiding by confidentiality stuff. That’s obviously a major cause for concern in its own right, but doesn’t sound like anything unusual is going on (sadly, in this context).

https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/1336099605692510208

It’s a Kentucky thing:

The Knicks are targeting the late-in-training camp signings of the former Kings first-rounder Labissiere and the former Celtics first-round pick James Young, league sources say, with both players expected to land with Westchester in the
@nbagleague

Young & Labissiere are both from Kentucky.

I really do hope to God that Cade Cunningham signs with CAA in a few months.

Unfortunately for us UNC is the best basketball program in the NCAA, not UK

Skal is worth a look I guess, he has been decently productive in small samples. I don’t remember James Young but he shot really well in Israel

Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada:
Unfortunately for us UNC is the best basketball program in the NCAA, not UK

Not when it comes to producing NBA players.

If I’m Houston I offer Harden, Wall, and Gordon for Simmons, Harris, and Green plus the LA/Mil suite of 1sts and swaps.

That mostly solves Houston’s cap problem gives them picks and a fun team of Simmons, McLemore, House, Harris, and Wood. That’s a really good shooting lineup around Simmons.

It hurts Philly’s long term cap but Harris was already doing that and Gordon is better than Green, even if his contract is much worse, and they pair Harden with Embiid.

Spent the last few years summering near St. Joe’s on Lake Sebago. If we ever get to travel again, I recommend it to everyone. It’s gorgeous. And close enough to Portland to make it a day trip.

But yeah, that’s a summer vacation. The lake warms up enough for swimming come July.

Try livin’ in Honolulu for 19 yrs.

ooooooohhhhhhh, i would like to try that soooooo bad…

i’ve only been to Hawaii once, i’ll never forget – as soon as i returned from going there all i could think about for a while was what the heck was wrong with me for not living there…

Hey all Sebago lake is gorgeous. Also if you have never been to Acadia national park believe me its worth a trip. It even has its own sandy beach if you go in the summer you can enjoy swimming. I have gone every year with the wife since we moved here and love it each time we go. Hmm the singing of skal maybe competion for omare but i think if omare can shoot at all would be great. I have to admit i know nothing of james young. Keep up the good work all and stay safe Chris

They used to have a place near Sebago, which definitely made the drive up there worth it.

that’s too funny, i love the family and all – but, i really like that spot they’re at…

Frank and Randle for Buddy would be brilliant. It solves two, arguably three problems at once.

If the Clippers didn’t get wrecked in the Paul George trade, I could actually see Houston and LAC coming to an agreement on a Paul George/Luke Kennard for James Harden swap with picks and going back to Houston. Alas, LAC has no picks.

Now, bearing in mind that almost any trade that gets Kawhi to commit to you is a good trade, I guess, it’s fascinating to wonder if the Clippers would have been in better overall shape had they just added Kawhi to their team as it was and maybe traded Gallo and picks for multiple pieces rather than just George. Especially since Paul George was way out of his element as a shooting guard.

too many of you have actually lived out my fantasies…always dreamed of hiking along the appalachian trail…

hopefully you can toss in a few more stories from time to time z-man…

Interesting piece from the Defector. I didn’t know this but Walt Frazier was the first player to have his own shoe. Made some money from it. I knew Clyde had style and swag but I didn’t realize to what extent he was the originator of the genre.

https://defector.com/walt-clyde-frazier-the-clydes-and-the-invention-of-nba-cool/

I mean, now Harden has been seen on video partying in strip clubs in Vegas, birthday parties in Atlanta, etc all mask-less and surrounded by a bunch of other maskless people. This is ridiculous just from a breach of contract perspective, not to mention there is a freaking pandemic going on. I think the league needs to step in here and help the Rockets out — suspend the player for conduct detrimental to the league (per the new health and safety guidelines). One of the faces of the league can’t be out there absolutely blowing off covid protocols and not showing up to team activities that are mandated by the player contracts.

Real question:

The highly stat oriented posters (THCJ in particular) have been EXTREMELY pro Harden for years on this blog. Would the consensus here be NO to the following?

Harden to the Knicks

Knicks send:
2021 1st top 3 protected
Dal 2023 1st
RJ, Knox, Frank, Randle

I posted this on the last thread not realizing it was dead: Can someone explain Frank’s high basketball IQ to me?

On a very high level there only one correct way to play this game, The players will have different skills, the teams will have different strengths, the systems used can be different, but you either play the right way or you are going to have a much tougher time winning a championship.

It’s a team game. It requires unselfish team oriented thinking and sustained effort.

You have to take smart shots.

You have to know when and where to move the ball towards a better shot even if you already have a good one.

You have to be wiling to keep yourself in motion and know where to go on the floor.

You have know when to help or switch if your teammate gets beat, always know where to be on defense, and be wiling to make the extra effort.

You have to know when you can get away with little things the refs may not see.

You have to makes all the extra effort plays to lead to extra possessions.

Everything you think about and do has to be geared towards making the TEAM better and not about your own shots, rebounds, stats, and body.

Melo had tremendous offensive skill, but imo he had a very low basketball IQ and didn’t make a consistent effort

Harden has tremendous skills, but imo he has a low basketball IQ and doesn’t make a consistent effort.

Frank does not have a lot of skill on offense, but he does almost everything right if the goal is to win games at the highest level. You want 15 Franks on your team, but you want some of them to be a lot more skilled and able to score. 🙂

Strat, I don’t get your logic at all. If you want to say that Melo and Harden are not suited to be #1 players on a championship team, sure. But to compare them in any way to what has been a garden variety scrub requires mental gymnastics and squinting of the highest order.

PS Harden is not Melo. He is arguably the offensive GOAT or close to it. You can hate the aesthetics of his game but that’s simply a fact.

There is no doubt that if we got James Harden we would instantly be a playoff team and could probably get to the second round for a few seasons.

But so what?

I want to build a team that has an extended playoff run. A team that can consistently win a minimum of 45 games for the next decade. Yes, I would like that to eventually lead to a championship but more than that, I’m just sick of The Knicks being a joke and Harden would only temporarily relieve that. I want us to be like Dallas with Dirk. A team that you knew was always going to be good and eventually broke through. If we can build a foundation where we’re penciled in for the 1 through 5 seed year after year and are consistently making it to the second round, we will have no problem attracting free agents. Stars will want to play with us. Good vets who sign with teams for cheap will want to play with us.

I did really enjoy the 54 win team but I remember even then thinking “we gotta win it all this year.” When we lost to The Pacers, I thought well maybe we can be as good as we were again next season if this and this goes right. But we weren’t and that was it. Three seasons of the playoffs with only one season where we were legitimately good. And yes, Harden is way better than Melo but he’s also older than Melo when we got Melo and he will cost us a fortune. Hard pass. Plus, I hate his game so much.

I’m not against trading some of our youth and picks for the right young star on the rise or in his prime. But I would like the next good Knicks team to have some homegrown talent on it. Its just a much more satisfying experience as fan to watch a team grow and get better year after year and see a young player go from promising to good. Besides winning a championship, watching a young team grow and get better I think is one of the most rewarding experiences as a fan.

swiftandabundant: I want to build a team that has an extended playoff run. A team that can consistently win a minimum of 45 games for the next decade. Yes, I would like that to eventually lead to a championship but more than that, I’m just sick of The Knicks being a joke and Harden would only temporarily relieve that. I want us to be like Dallas with Dirk. A team that you knew was always going to be good and eventually broke through. If we can build a foundation where we’re penciled in for the 1 through 5 seed year after year and are consistently making it to the second round, we will have no problem attracting free agents. Stars will want to play with us. Good vets who sign with teams for cheap will want to play with us.

Agreed. I want no part of a Harden trade.

ess-dog: I think it would have to at least be two unprotected Knicks picks, RJ, and one of Mitch/Toppin as a starting point. I wouldn’t do it, but I could see the FO doing it to help them get into the Giannis sweepstakes next year.

I can’t see the FO doing it at all. They have shown zero signs of itching to trade the farm for the extremely unlikely chance that Giannis would want to play with a declining primadonna. Not to mention that Harden has expressed zero interest in the Knicks.

Here is my latest opening day lineup theory: Thibs will start Frank at point guard on Friday.

1. Thibs has been pushing a “defense-first” approach in practice, which obviously benefits Frank.

2. Thibs will want to square Frank up against Killian as both a motivation test and a game advantage. Frank knows Killian’s game better than anyone in the NBA. And as a competitor, Frank is surely dying to show up the new French guard on the block. This is the matchup Frank needs to prove that he’s still worth something in this league.

cgreene:
Real question:

The highly stat oriented posters (THCJ in particular) have been EXTREMELY pro Harden for years on this blog. Would the consensus here be NO to the following?

Harden to the Knicks

Knicks send:
2021 1st top 3 protected
Dal 2023 1st
RJ, Knox, Frank, Randle

Interesting to see the responses. I purposefully left the trade more in the Knicks favor to see the opinions. I generally agree. However, we have rebuilt so poorly because of bad talent evaluation and team building strategy that I get hesitant not to just have that number 1 option in the bag for a couple of years and see what can get built quickly around him. Championship teams get constructed on the fly almost every year in the NBA now. See: Clippers, Heat in 2020. I’m sure Hardin has a Robin to his Batman out there who’s his boy and wants to join him wherever he lands.

Optimizing your performance under the rules as written is, if not a skill, highly related to a player’s usefulness. I would absolutely value a player making 38% of their threes more than a player making 55% of their long twos, because 1) 55% is unsustainable from that range for most players, whereas 38% from 3 is fairly normal for good shooters and 2) if he can hit 55% of his long twos he should be shooting from a foot back to make his shots more valuable. If he is obtusely refusing to step a foot back for his shot, he is either an idiot or too stubborn to coach.

cgreene: I’m sure Hardin has a Robin to his Batman out there who’s his boy and wants to join him wherever he lands.

  

I’d need to know who that was before I’d even start making proposals.

Rivers/Payton
Harden/Burks
Bullock/Burks
Obi/Spellman
Mitch/Noel

Is a strong team that competes with basically any team in the east because Harden is so much better than everyone in the conference not named Giannis.

We’d have max cap space plus some in the coming offseason with Giannis, Kawhi, Gobert, Paul George and others potentially available.

Sign any of them and you’ve gone from worst team in the league to East favorites. Then you sign all the championship chasers for low cost contracts.

You may not like Harden but that’s a pretty damn good shot at a championship.

E: Value and skill aren’t the same thing; that’s pretty much the point for me. Any kind of serious cross-era analysis has to keep this in mind.

I think everyone knows this is true but also it’s kind of an empty point. Frankly the most “skilled” guy is probably a 5’6″ guy who plays for the Globetrotters, but I don’t hear a lot of people making his case as the GOAT. Being “skilled” at manipulating an orange leather ball is pretty meaningless outside of ways that it translates into value in the popular game of basketball.

Knicks send:
2021 1st top 3 protected
Dal 2023 1st
RJ, Knox, Frank, Randle

RJ: all upside, no production
Knox: should be playing in Europe, and not Euroleague
Frank: ibid
Randle: a virtually inconsequential player who will have racked up a ton of MP and made some money in this league, basically the Arron Afflalo of contemporary PFs

The picks are only as good as the players the Knicks’ scouting team selects. So… uh, haha.

Harden: top 25 player of all-time, still good

It would be akin to the Pau Gasol heist if the Knicks got Harden, even at his age, for that dumpster fire of a player package. The Rockets would instantly become cellar dwellers and the Knicks would become a 50-win team.

If Harden hadn’t choked a few times during bigtime games in the playoffs and hadn’t been a dick nowacoviddays I’d definitely say Yes.
I love his game.
But now I’m kind of afraid that Harden may fuck the culture, the future and the Extremely rare for the knicks: patient approach of the FO.

(Plus) The Rockets should be desperate to accept our miserable package

Fertitta’s idiocy might force them into an unfavorable deal, since Harden is probably pissing him off and he seems to be addicted to unloading salary.

This is entirely from a production perspective. His COVID bullshit and desire to play for an instant contender makes it a no from me. The Knicks ain’t it for James Harden. (Frankly, neither would be the Nets. And that’s why I want it to happen.)

Will i embrace a Harden trade?

Definitely! I’ll order a Knicks Harden jersey right away and cross my fingers for the best!
But deep down inside me I’ll know that It’s pretty possible to go one more Stat/Melo ride…

Again, Harden instantly makes you a title contender. Even year 1 you have a legitimate shot at winning the championship. Even if you never sign another star player, Harden gives you a championship contender for the next few years. Maybe not the favorite, but a legitimate shot.

You think that a starting lineup of Elfrid Payton, James Harden, Alec Burks, Obi Toppin, and Mitch Robinson has a legitimate shot to win the title?

I agree that ignoring the most basic Covid protocols makes Harden a big no for me. He comes off as clueless at best, but more likely just another self-absorbed dickhead who is helping to make this epidemic much worse than it could have been.

With Kyrie and Harden, Brooklyn would instantly become the league’s most hated team, no?

thenamestsam: You think that a starting lineup of Elfrid Payton, James Harden, Alec Burks, Obi Toppin, and Mitch Robinson has a legitimate shot to win the title?

Literally any team with James Harden has a shot at winning the title, with the sole exception of Harden plus the 4 players we traded him for in this hypothetical.

And when I say shot I don’t mean some remote possibility, I mean he instantly makes the Knicks maybe the 2nd best team in the East.

If you don’t agree, you’re probably underrating James Harden.

By RAPTOR Harden put up 16.7 WAR in the regular season. Giannis 12. Third best in the East? Tatum at 9.2. Butler 8.8, almost half Harden’s value. Embiid & Simmons combine for only 11 total.

By BPM Giannis is ahead but Harden is second at 9.6. Third in the East is Butler at 5.4.

Is this the exact right way to think about these numbers? No, probably not. But the gulf between Harden and your run of the mill superstar is gargantuan.

If you don’t agree, you’re probably underrating James Harden.

I’m generally in the Harden defender category but I think A. you’re overrating him somewhat and B. you’re maybe underrating how bad the rest of the roster would be. Harden is really, really good, but they came close to making the finals once in his tenure in Houston (albeit in the harder conference) and most years they had rosters much better than what we would be putting around him. It looks like a low 50s win roster to me even in a pretty optimistic case, and that’s not a legitimate title contender.

Also, fuck James Harden for partying right now.

I saw of meme of Harden partying with a bunch of women and the caption was, “the Rockets may have to test Harden for more than just Covid when he finally reports”.

Knew Your Nicks:
One more rumor i just read…

New York Knicks Receive: LaMarcus Aldridge, DeMar DeRozan

San Antonio Spurs Receive: Julius Randle, Dennis Smith Jr., Kevin Knox II, 2021 2nd Round Pick (via DET), 2021 2nd Round Pick (via CHA)

Seems weird to dump Randle just to take on Aldridge who would eat Toppin’s minutes also.

Both Aldridge & DeRozan are FAs after this year. So you really have to bet 1 stays or that making the playoffs this year turns around perceptions of the Knicks (I mean, maybe).

OTOH, you’re really only giving up 2 seconds and a bunch of garbage.

thenamestsam: I’m generally in the Harden defender category but I think A. you’re overrating him somewhat and B. you’re maybe underrating how bad the rest of the roster would be. Harden is really, really good, but they came close to making the finals once in his tenure in Houston (albeit in the harder conference) and most years they had rosters much better than what we would be putting around him. It looks like a low 50s win roster to me even in a pretty optimistic case, and that’s not a legitimate title contender.

If the significantly worse Butler can drag the Heat to the finals, I don’t see why Harden can’t. Butler has Bam, but the two together still don’t produce the value Harden does. Also, Mitch adds a significant amount by almost every metric. Everyone else on the team is an NBA level starter with the possible exception of Obi, and even he appears likely to play reasonably well.

The reason many of our players appear so bad is because they play on a team with exactly the players we’re dumping and who took well over 20% of our team’s minutes. You’re effectively adding a 2nd Harden just by dumping last year’s version of RJ & Knox.

The Privilege of having Cap Space, draft picks and promising(???) young players!
All Rumours include you.

There’s no way that that Spurs rumor is legit. So it’s not even worth discussing.

The Spurs rumor sounds like someone is trolling the Knicks. 🙂

If Harden wanted to come here, he’s one of the few players in the NBA who can change a team’s entire win curve just by himself. So sure, that offer would be fine. It’s less than the Knicks gave up for Melo and 31 year old Harden is better than 26 (basically 27) year old Melo (and Harden’s game is clearly one that will age well) and the cap sheet is in much better shape, so that they could add any number of stars next year. Gobert, Beal, etc. It doesn’t have to be Giannis. There’s a lot of good players out there.

That said, Harden doesn’t want to come here, so it’s a moot point.

Honestly, the only basketball reason you don’t do that Harden trade is because he’s 31 years old and doesn’t take care of himself at all so he could fall off a cliff at any time. Of course, I doubt Houston would accept that trade. At a minimum I’d think we’d have to include at least 2 of Mitch, RJ, Obi.

i kind of hope the harden things drags on just for the spectacle of it. i’m pretty ambivalent amid the player-vs-owner/league spectrum on situations like these with contracted superstars. i don’t fully agree with tnfh that incentives are aligned when the trade request is made public and that contracts work well as adjudicators. the standard nba contract has language requiring wittegnstein level humor like “loyalty” and “best services” from players, which in reality is just not likely to work well in a litigation/arbitration context, and if it came to that regularly the rules would surely be rewritten toward clarity. what’s more, a player who makes it clear they want out two years in advance doesn’t just inform, they also radically change the nature of the product for those two years. it’s a lot harder for fans to maintain the tribal illusion when their guru is openly trying to ghost them.

you might argue that’s fine and the best solution is for players to go where they want, but of course there is a league equilibrium where that might not work (i.e. 5 teams of superstars and 25 knicks). or maybe you could argue the problems of players half assing it (“best services” violation) or openly wanting out are offset by the general unfairness of elite talents (of course with zero skill) being cba’d and effective monopoly’d into unreasonable constraints on freedom. maybe so, but i still think there is a dangerous point at which player’s soft power could really hurt the league. i am not sure about this.

Does Miami have the salary and picks to build a trade package around Tyler Herro?

miami could offer herro, nunn, achiuwa, low value pick swaps in 2022 and 2024, and a 2025 or 26 1st. they would have to throw in olynyk and iggy to make the salary work and wait 30 days from achiuwa’s signing.

Deeefense: It’s interesting that some people are even mildly considering a trade for Harden. Setting side my personal opinion on his game, I’m usually the one most open in bringing in players in the 30ish range as part of a rebuild process. But typically, I’m open to it as a free agent signing where you don’t give anything up and are just trying to accelerate the win curve, get playoff experience for the young players, trying to add players that could be traded or rolled up into another star later etc.. I don’t think I’ve even been in favor of trading picks and young players for a 30ish player unless maybe he was the missing piece to put you over the top (which is clearly not the case with Harden). To me, giving up a lot of our future for Harden is a very strong NO.

Harden is the win curve. Harden plus a max player next offseason is about as peak win curve as you can get. After that we still have a surplus of picks to deal for a third player or better role players.

Alternatively, when Harden calls it quits we still have Mitch & Toppin in their primes plus every one of our own picks except 2021. Plus every single 2023 2nd round pick.

Harden is not adding the mediocre vets that we disagree with you on. Harden is the best or second best player in the league.

But yes, the important thing is that Harden doesn’t want to come here. That’s a pretty key point.

Sample city jerseys are out: https://twitter.com/sny_knicks/status/1334140422428516354

@geo You clearly didn’t grow up watching Lord of the Rings 😉

Harden making it clear that he will go to Philadelphia and Philly making it clear that they won’t trade Embiid or Simmons…shit, the Knicks might actually end up as an actual possibility. I still doubt it, but Barrett is probably the shiniest guy the Rockets could get for Harden at this point.

Early Bird: If the significantly worse Butler can drag the Heat to the finals, I don’t see why Harden can’t.

I would not describe what happened as Butler dragging the Heat anywhere. Bam was awesome in the bubble and they had solidly 9 guys giving them productive playoff-team rotation caliber minutes. The # of guys on the Knicks roster who I’m confident can do that is not enough to fill up a starting lineup.

There’s an extremely limited history of non-Lebron one man band teams having significant playoff success and if I was betting on someone to extend that history it would not be playoff Harden. I just don’t know how you can look at his history and conclude that this guy plus Mitch plus a bunch of minimums is a championship team. It doesn’t square with anything other than his high RAPTOR rating.

yes of course our team would be better with Harden but man I would hate rooting for a team with James Harden. A) his game sucks to watch, and B) he seems like a total douchebag. No thanks, feels like a deal with the devil, only made worse that we would be trading the super wholesome wondertwins of Frank and RJ.

Not to mention we would still be a first-round out AND dudes can’t stand playing with Harden, so there’s no guarantee that max player X would come in Summer 2021.

legendary players tend to.. almost always actually… age well barring injury….

harden is def in that class so i wouldn’t put it out of reach that he will be a useful player until he’s 40…. he shoots well and his dribble penetration relies on changing directions and speeds and reflexes rather than pure burst….

he has great spatial recognition ability and that comes from your eyes and brain and that’s really what separates a lot of these elite athletes from others… or at least that’s a theory being discussed in academia… and that spatial recognition ability allows players to adapt and be useful even as the rest of their abilities deteroriate….

so him being 31 is actually more like 26 for other players so you shouldn’t be afraid of his age especially when he’s basically been injury free his entire career….

Pretty crazy that Harden, who has led the league in FTA in each year but one since he joined Houston, still falls nearly 100 FTA short of Jordan’s all-time single-season high of 972 (1986-87). That’s as many as Shaq had in 2001, a lofty summit he reached for obvious reasons. If KB existed during that Jordan season, I wonder how many of us would call him a win-nothing stats-padder.

A lot will depend on exactly how afraid teams outside of Harden’s “preferred list” are going to be to get in on the bidding. If you can get two years of James Harden trying his hardest there’s lots of teams that should go for it like the Raps did with Kawhi. Even if he doesn’t re-sign that might be a bonus honestly and flags fly forever after all, but you have to be worried about him holding out or half-assing it.

Among that group there’s lots who it would make way more sense for them to push in significant chips than the Knicks though: Boston, Denver, New Orleans, Miami. I just don’t see how the Knicks can ever make sense. If we’re not the worst team in the league we’re close to it, which always means it’s going to make more sense for basically every other team to make this kind of win-now move than it does for us.

harden is def in that class so i wouldn’t put it out of reach that he will be a useful player until he’s 40…. he shoots well and his dribble penetration relies on changing directions and speeds and reflexes rather than pure burst….

he has great spatial recognition ability and that comes from your eyes and brain and that’s really what separates a lot of these elite athletes from others… or at least that’s a theory being discussed in academia… and that spatial recognition ability allows players to adapt and be useful even as the rest of their abilities deteroriate….

this is why i’m convinced that a 39 fat harden would be a gift from heaven and more fun to watch than a 31 year old world beating harden. he would play like a 6’5″ jokic and bully every wing that tried to guard him in the post while slow motion shape shifting every big. you’d see more no look over the head passes from the elbow in his 17 mins per game than bird had in his entire career. on defense, well, you might have to just foul their worst ft shooter.

There’s the rub.

That’s the rub for every single player ever, to the point where it really isn’t the rub for this particular guy. If a guy doesn’t have an injury history, worrying about future injuries seems to be a stretch.

A lot will depend on exactly how afraid teams outside of Harden’s “preferred list” are going to be to get in on the bidding.

Oh, totally. This whole thing hinges on how important “what Harden wants” is to the deal.

If Fertita got mad enough to go for that trade Holy Shit that’d be a huge win for the Knicks. Harden plus more than max space plus Mitch and we only give up one pick and our shitty kids? Amazing. Sign me right the fuck up.

Hell, sign me up even if he says he won’t play here. We can flip him for me picks than we sent out and never have to have another Frank* argument again.

EB, I lol’d at the new city jerseys.

*Not today, Satan!**

**That’s more steals than Frank will have in his first week this year.

I can’t wait until we talk about Frank as much as we do Langston Galloway

The team that needs to get in on a Harden trade is Denver. Harden and Jokic together gives you a better chance of Murray and Jokic, and if Harden leaves he may have won you a title. A team like Denver will never attract a star like Harden so they would be wise to pull a Ujiri depending on how much it costs. If you can get it done for Murray, Porter Jr and a single 1st then I think you have to pull the trigger.

I kinda miss Galloway. And KOQ, who I always thought was super fun.

I kinda miss Galloway. And KOQ, who I always thought was super fun.

I’m shocked that Galloway had to accept a vet minimum deal on a team where he’s behind multiple guys. He’s still a useful player.

Brian Cronin: That’s the killer thing about these deals. That would be a great deal for Houston. They’d still be playoff contenders with that trade. But it comes down to whether Harden would be willing to go to Denver. I doubt he would. Does that matter? I have no idea.

I’m sure Kawhi wasn’t willing to go to Toronto, either, and he ultimately left after one season. I do question, though, how much value this year’s championship will be worth to a city if there are no fans in the stands and no parade afterwards. Maybe it won’t be worth the risk, even if you have a guy like Jokic who you need to keep happy and in town on an eventual 3rd contract.

There is no chance we could trade for Harden without giving up at least one of Obi and Mitch. For our offer to be anywhere near competitive it’s very likely we’d have to trade RJ, Obi, and Mitch. So I’m a no on a trade that could actually occur.

I would probably do the one proposed upthread because in all likelihood it increases our chances of winning a championship in the next 5-10 years when you consider the free agent and/or trade possibilities that would remain. Also I guess I’m just weird because I really enjoy watching James Harden play basketball, flops and all.

Anyway, back to the real world, whether or not to trade Simmons for Harden from Morey’s perspective is one of the more interesting questions a GM has faced in a while.

The team around Simmons/Embiid suddenly looks a lot more coherent than last year’s, so Morey might insist on getting a look at it at least until the deadline. He can tell the Rockets to have fun with Caris LeVert if they want a trade done more urgently than that.

Well, there’s one thing that puts the Knicks over the other bidding teams… cap space. The Rockets roster right now is costing Fertitta 146M (roster is 138M, plus 8M of luxury tax). So if we tweak cgreene’s trade idea a little, switching Randle for DSJ, and probably sending three 1RP (only 2 picks wouldn’t seal the deal), the Rockets would avoid the luxury tax and come down to 121.5M saving Fertitta 24.5M. He could save up to 6M more if one of Frank, DSJ and Knox is removed from the trade, getting to 30.5M in savings. I think this could be the shinniest thing to Fertitta. The only other team that can do this is OKC.

thenamestsam: It doesn’t square with anything other than his high RAPTOR rating.

  

I think that’s fair, but that’s how I view the game. I l’ll take the numbers and live or die with them being wrong or mismeasuring value. At least from a team building perspective.

And if you look at almost any metric Harden is worth more than Bam and Butler combined. Mitch is worth nearly as much as Bam by those same metrics. Other Heat players stepped it up in the bubble but were pedestrian during the regular season. We might need Bullock or Burks to catch fire but that’s not impossible.

I mean the Knicks were basically an East playoff team last year if any of the following 3 things are true: (1) Payton was healthy all year; (2) we don’t play Knox or RJ 2800 combined minutes; or (3) DSJr functions as his normal bottom 20th percentile self rather than a live-action Bargnani GIF.

I’m not saying the Knicks do win with that squad but your chances aren’t much worse than any individual East team except the Bucks who have been uniquely inept in the postseason.

Grocer: EB, I lol’d at the new city jerseys.

I’m glad someone enjoyed it. I apologize to everyone else as I’ve been really bored the last few days.

At this point, with Harden holding out, and him specifying where he can go, cap space constraints and all that, the Rockets are motivated sellers. That means his cost will go down. Are the Knicks even an option? If he said that the Rockets are the “Knicks of the south”, I bet the Knicks aren’t in any running. Don’t get me wrong, he’s great. I just think this is the most remote thing for the Knicks. Perhaps that’s why it’ll happen?

GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: If my grandma had wheels….

Sure but I don’t actually care about them making the playoffs last year, the point is there’s a decent collection of NBA talent on the Knicks if you add James Harden and subtract literally the people the hypothetical subtracts.

The actual quote was that

A person familiar with James Harden’s thinking described the Rockets’ culture as toxic and called them the ‘Knicks of the South,’

In other words, Harden thinks that the Rockets suck and his buddy called them the “Knicks of the South.” That’s not to say that Harden feels that way about the Knicks.

Early Bird:
Sample city jerseys are out: https://twitter.com/sny_knicks/status/1334140422428516354

I hate you, lol.

As anyone here seen the new Knicks City edition jerseys? They’re pretty horrendous.

The thing about Harden is I think he understand Fertitta is (1) broke; and (2) a piece of shit, and he wants out. Tillman’s done nothing to make the Rockets better since buying the team, he’s always trying to save money. He got rich on restaurants and hotels, he’s personally guaranteed the debt he used to buy the Rockets and keep his business empire afloat, he’s going to strip the team of expenses and then eventually sell it if the government doesn’t bail out his businesses.

However to the extent players have given teams more than they’ve explicitly bargained for in the past, that’s been a favor. If teams expect more they need to negotiate it into contracts in the way you described.

i don’t think the players have given more than they bargained for, so to speak. i think the teams and the league more or less have the contractual levers to push back against public trade demands and refusals to report or play hard but players have incrementally realized that teams will be reluctant to strongly assert those levers for orthogonal reasons; ie it would be a probative and reputational shit show for both sides for the spurs to claim a best services breach when kawhi sat by trotting out a bevy of warring doctors, inner circle snitches, and magnum pi gifs.

you can (wrongly) call that an implicit part of the negotiation if you want but the real question isn’t about the last bargain but the next one. if the league thinks it’s a bad equilibrium for players to find the point of their maximum de facto leverage allowed by the old cba the impasse will be what matters. and i am saying i can at least imagine a case where the league could be right about how maximum autonomy available under current trends could be a shitty equilibrium for the sport.

Yeah, it’s rare to see a guy brag about pushing his team into making a bad trade. Fertitta is certainly something unusual.

Harden to Golden State would be a great deal for us. Curry might get so pissed off he’ll ask out next year and then would could take a shot at him. lol

might be worse than watching Melo. I’ve already suffered enough with a guy that doesn’t know how to win.

I know being a loser is simply a binary, but I thought I’d flesh those binaries out a bit:

Carmelo Anthony: 17 seasons played, 12 playoffs played, 77 career playoff games (25-52 overall), 2949 MP

James Harden: 11 seasons played, 11 playoffs played, 128 career playoff games (66-62 overall), 4522 MP

There’s a lot more to it than that, and I’m not going to cite the fake stats thoroughly debunked by Alan Dershowitz on his Twitter page, but yeah, uh, Harden would lose quite a bit less than Carmelo, all things equal.

And I don’t even want Harden. But let’s get a little closer to reality here.

Giving up a couple of kids and picks I like like in order to watch Harden lose in the playoffs or to watch him eventually alienate any good player stupid enough to come to NY to join him and wash out in the playoffs every year might be worse than watching Melo. I’ve already suffered enough with a guy that doesn’t know how to win. I don’t need to suffer with a much better version of same loser personality.

With you philosophically, but Harden’s way better than Melo was.

Early Birdthe point is there’s a decent collection of NBA talent on the Knicks

Yeah, I cannot, in any way, agree with this. Aside from the absolute rookies we have, I struggle to identify tier-3, legit and full-time starters. Who on this roster should be guaranteed a starting job on a normal NBA team? For example, who would crack the Nets starting lineup?

GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: Yeah, I cannot, in any way, agree with this. Aside from the absolute rookies we have, I struggle to identify tier-3, legit and full-time starters. Who on this roster should be guaranteed a starting job on a normal NBA team?For example, who would crack the Nets starting lineup?

Mitch, Bullock and then it depends on if KD plays the 3 or 4. But the Nets don’t seem to have great options at whichever position KD doesn’t play, so maybe Toppin or Burks. Obviously they’re not starting over Kyrie or KD.

I don’t pay much attention to the Nets, so I’m not too familiar with their lineup.

His best chance to win a title was with CP3 because CP3 could at least influence him in the right direction

Oh also this is complete nonsense. Harden had the 2nd highest playoff usage of his career that season and that team was famously iso-heavy. You can just say you don’t like him, which is totally normal because he’s extremely unlikable, you don’t need to make things up.

@Early Bird –
That’s my point. It’s tough to find those legit starters. And (IMO) Spencer Dinwiddie, Caris LeVert, Joe Harris & Jarrett Allen all start over every other Knick. So hold on to that a moment…

I’m rehashing my complaints about how we handled free agency. Let’s say that they had signed better free agents? Maybe overpaid a bit. Instead of signing the crap we did sign, what if they had signed someone in the $15-25M range? Imagine instead of Burks, Peyton and Rivers they signed one of Gallinari, Bertans, Mook, Augustine, Dragic, VanVleet, etc. They would still have the assets to trade and now adding Harden makes some sense, especially if it was a complimentary player. BTW, I loved the Noel signing because a player like him is not competing with the likes of a superstar like Harden for the ball but contributes in other ways. Low-balling complimentary positions (glue guys, rebounders, rim defenders) makes sense. Low-balling primary scoring and playmaking is a tactical mistake.

I’ll say this, while I wouldn’t make a deal for Harden and I don’t think he’ll come here anyway, I wouldn’t be crazy upset with that. It could flip things for the Knicks next offseason. They could shed the crap next offseason and add winning pieces. But the contract expiration after 2021/22 and all the other garbage around Harden – like ball dominance and visiting COVID super-spreader clubs, really has me down on him.

That’s a tribute to Morey, not Fertitta

Let’s not fool ourselves.
We’re not in place right now to sign an impactful big dog.
Not even with different signings on the off-season or anything else.
If we continue the same strategy and the youngsters become actual players we’ll probably be in a great position to attract a FA who could make us contenders after 1 or 2 years.
Idk if that’s what’s called win curve or something similar but it makes no sense for a big dog to come to us right now and we have no assets to make a trade for one yet and still remain competitive after the trade…
Bye bye harden…

Unless the Rockets are stupid, desperate or Harden is in love with a new york stripper!

Fuck Harden
We have Frank!

“I guess that proves you can’t win with James harden as your best player.”

Steve Nash got as close to a title as Harden ever has.

We just saw supposedly one of the best GMs in the league move heaven and earth to try and win with Harden as the best player on his team. How did that work out?

Mike

Steve Nash got as close to a title as Harden ever has.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY7YSiJZ8sw

We just saw supposedly one of the best GMs in the league move heaven and earth to try and win with Harden as the best player on his team. How did that work out?

They made the playoffs in eight consecutive seasons, making 3 WCSF and 2 WCF appearances. Next you’re going to tell me Jerry Sloan was a shit coach because he had Malone and Stockton and couldn’t win a ring.

“The reason they did not get along and CP3 got traded was because CP3 was failing to get Harden to play the right way. That’s where the friction came from.”

Despite considering CP3 one of the Top PGs ever i wouldn’t call him a very successful playoff player tho…

And yes, that was the playoff series that gave us HERE COMES AUSTIN RIVERS, one of the greatest moments in NBA history. P.S. that guy is a Knick now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0LAgNwNmrc

Show me the money*!

*the playoffs success of CP3

move them goalposts

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
move them goalposts

I didn’t move anything.

I’m saying the same thing over and over. You just don’t understand that winning a championship is about more than BPM.

Deeefense: LMAO

It’s hard for the alpha to get a ring being selfish. That’s the whole point.

Look, your argument either reduces down to the question of whether Harden is good enough to be an alpha (which you deny) or your argument is that rings don’t matter only winner mentality matters (else this only matters insofar as it leads to rings and is really the first question). The third option is that you just don’t want to be wrong so you’ve put forth two inconsistent statements. Logical entailment is a bitch.

Strat, I don’t have anything personal against you but that’s some crazy mental gymnastics.

Look, your argument either reduces down to the question of whether Harden is good enough to be an alpha (which you deny) or your argument is that rings don’t matter only winner mentality matters (else this only matters insofar as it leads to rings). The third option is that you just don’t want to be wrong so you’ve put forth two inconsistent statements. Logical entailment is a bitch.

Strat, I don’t have anything personal against you but that’s some crazy mental gymnastics.

It couldn’t possibly be any simpler.

My argument is that Harden has the intrinsic physical talent and basketball skill to be the alpha of a team that wins a championship, but he plays in a selfish style that will prevent him from doing so. I am calling him a “loser” not because he hasn’t won a title yet, but because his “attitude” dooms him to losing.

I am differentiating between “he played the right way but lost to a better team” and “he’s the better player on the more talented team but lost to a team with less talent because he’s plays like a moron”.

I’ve never felt Dolan was the worst owner in the league. For sure I’d rather have him than Jordan or whoever it is that owns the Kings. I think you could also make an argument that Detroit’s ownership isn’t any better than Dolan. For all his warts, he has always been willing to spend money to make the team better, he can be a very charitable person, and he has actually stopped meddling in recent years and seems to just want competent management for the team.

yes, james lawrence dolan is mostly certainly the devil you do know…plasma donating and a few other acts of humanity aside…

#Or maybe it’s just dumb to call a player a loser when there are four other guys on the court with him#

Is it then also dumb to call a player MVP or GOAT or Winner due to the same condition? (4 other guys w him)

Your Legacy is built on decisions and habbits.
Not only on your game’s quality.

Entailment? We talkin’ about entailment?

It appears we are. Going to go read the definition again.

D-Mar – The fact Mitch would get dunker’s elbow is a great point. I’d enjoy the hell out of that.

Strat – I love Wade but I don’t think he was a better player than Harden. Certainly not on offense.

thenoblefacehumper:
You all should’ve known Strat was not worth indulging on this one when he began by saying “James Harden’s problem is that he’s not more like Frank Ntilikina”

If Harden had Frank’s attitude towards basketball he’d probably already have a ring and if Frank had Harden’s talent and skill we’d have stopped arguing about tanking 3 years ago and be on our way to our own.

Instead, Harden is going to keep averaging triple doubles and not winning a ring and we’ll still be arguing about Frank’s net value when you consider his plus defense.

Have a good night all.

#It’s a team game, but when one guy is controlling the action and he’s selfish the team still won’t get as good a result as a similarly talented team that plays in a more unselfish way. It’s hard to win a championship when your best player is playing a bad brand of basketball. I’m not sure why this is so tough to understand other than I’m equating it to having a “loser attitude” and people may object to me calling him a loser instead of an idiot. lol#

I wouldn’t call Harden’s game exactly selfish or dumb since his team manages to go pretty well each year in a tough conference but i wouldn’t call it ideal also.
Definitely needs adjustments for the next step forward.

Deeefense: My argument is that Harden has the intrinsic physical talent and basketball skill to be the alpha of a team that wins a championship, but he plays in a selfish style that will prevent him from doing so. I am calling him a “loser” not because he hasn’t won a title yet, but because his “attitude” dooms him to losing.

Ok, so what you’re saying really amounts to the fact Harden could be an alpha but isn’t due to the style of basketball he plays.

Presumably, you’re claiming Harden can never win playing the style of basketball he plays. However, if Harden plays more like Lebron James or Nash or other winning attitude players he will win.

You then claim he will lose to worse teams despite his teams having more talent because the other teams play the right way and he doesn’t.

So in response, I’ll just say there’s no real empirical evidence for any of the above because he’s never lost to a team with less talent than his own team. I’m sure we’ve litigated this before, but the Kawhi Spurs, 2 years of KD GSWs, and the AD/LBJ Lakers were all better than Harden’s teams when they beat him. There’s zero evidence to support your claim. It’s complete speculation that Harden will never win with superior talent on his team.

Deeefense: On a very high level there only one correct way to play this game, The players will have different skills,the teams will have different strengths, the systems used can be different, but you either play the right way or you are going to have a much tougher time winning a championship.

It’s a team game. It requires unselfish team oriented thinking and sustained effort.

You have to know when and where to move the ball towards a better shot even if you already have a good one.

You have know when to help or switch if your teammate gets beat, always know where to be on defense, and be wiling to make the extra effort.
You have to know when you can get away with little things the refs may not see.
Harden has tremendous skills, but imo he has a low basketball IQ and doesn’t make a consistent effort.
Frank does not have a lot of skill on offense, but he does almost everything right if the goal is to win games at the highest level.You want 15 Franks on your team, but you want some of them to be a lot more skilled and able to score. 🙂

Frank is unselfish but that doesn’t necessarily equal high basketball IQ. I see a guy who never, and I mean never veers out of his lane- he sticks to his guy on defense but rarely makes a good read off of the ball. He’s not selfish on offense but he might be the most risk-averse player I’ve ever seen. In three years he’s made very modest improvement in ball-handling and shooting. No change in assist %, turnovers flat the last two years, and he actually fouled more last year than the previous 2 years. High IQ basketball players make adjustments- both in game and over the course of a career. Other than slightly improving his skill set (the lowest possible bar) Frank’s the exact same guy he was three years ago.

GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: Ok, so what you’re saying really amounts to the fact Harden could be an alpha but isn’t due to the style of basketball he plays.

Westbrook was awful this year, so yes.

CP3 + Harden is not as good as KD, Curry, Draymond, Klay, AI, etc.

You all should’ve known Strat was not worth indulging on this one when he began by saying “James Harden’s problem is that he’s not more like Frank Ntilikina”

lol

Early Bird: Westbrook was awful this year, so yes.

It’s arguable that playing with Harden was detrimental to Westbrook. That actually supports the argument, which I agree with, that “Harden can’t win a championship as the “heart and soul” or “brain” of the team”. It doesn’t mean he can’t win, but he has to have the right teammates.

GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever: It’s arguable that playing with Harden was detrimental to Westbrook. That actually supports the argument, which I agree with, that “Harden can’t win a championship as the “heart and soul” or “brain” of the team”. It doesn’t mean he can’t win, but he has to have the right teammates.

Not sure how Harden causes Westbrook to shoot 53% from the FT line in the playoffs or put up a Knox-like .460 TS% in the playoffs for the 3rd year in a row.

But I’m sure there’s a reason.

Early Bird: Not sure how Harden causes Westbrook to shoot 53% from the FT line in the playoffs or put up a Knox-like .460 TS% in the playoffs for the 3rd year in a row.

But I’m sure there’s a reason.

Well why was Russ there in the first place? Did Harden have anything to do with it? My recollection is that he was all for it.

His recent instagrams don’t suggest that he’s focused on winning.

that just may be a variation of the twolves’ butler approach towards “facilitating” a trade…

let’s see, be a total dick to everyone in the building – or – kick it with some freaks and friends, and friends who are freaks…

i like james’ approach better…

In a way, the conversation about Harden makes me think back to the things that were being said about Wilt back in his day. There definitely are some commonalities. But Wilt did radically transform his approach to the game before winning his 2 championships, and probably should have won 1 or 2 more and was just unlucky.

Switching topics a little bit here, but Cade Cunningham. I’ve been keeping tabs on him and while he’s played nobody, he’s essentially steering a team with future high school teachers, accountants, and small business owners to an undefeated record so far. He has a turnover problem but when you watch this guy play he’s on the short list for best prospects ever. The guy is a 6’7” top tier athlete playing point guard….and he’s a real threat to turn in a 50-40-90 season….and there is nobody else on that roster worthy of making a Big 12 scouting report.

Say what you want, but Cade Cunningham may actually be the best player to come out since Anthony Davis, and yes I know Zion Williamson and Luka Doncic were drafted in that timeframe. With Luka you could look and say “yeah but the shooting stats don’t add up, and can he defend at the next level?” and with Zion you could say “yeah but how long can he sustain his style of play at his weight?” Cade Cunningham doesn’t have those questions yet (of course other than the turnovers). You don’t see 6’7” super athletes that can shoot and pass every day. Oklahoma State has Texas, Texas Tech, West Virginia, Baylor, and Kansas in their division so those games will be pretty informative on just how good Cunningham is, but right now he’s on pace to grade out higher than everybody since Anthony Davis carried Kentucky to the championship.

If 2021 is the year my Jets get Trevor Lawrence and the Knicks land Cade Cunningham I think I’d be okay with that. I really do.

cade has been good to very good.. but he’s pretty shy of anthony davis or zion or that level of prospect right now.. he’s just better than jayson tatum… which is still pretty amazing but in terms of can’t miss A++ level of guy he’s not that … at least yet….

the main problem is his forays to the hoop…. he has issues getting to the rim… and a lot of folks are noticing his lack of burst… a guy with this physical profile should not have to rely on floaters and hook shots vs oral roberts… his 2p% is still above 50% but it’s very possible it tanks when facing actual tough defenses…. if he holds up against them then he will be the consensus #1 pick…. if it doesn’t it complicates things….

and part of the reason why he’s not consensus #1 right now even with an impressive showing is because of how good the rest of these guys are…. it’s a pretty strong class…. jalen suggs… evan mobley… jalen johnson are all in the conversation and that’s not even counting jalen green and jonathan kuminga…. cade is the odds on favorite to hang on but he still has more to prove and he has a ton of tough competition….

pepper:
as a jet fan…i am already accepting that the patriots will lay down in the final game if they are out of the playoffs…the jets will win and fall into the 2nd slot and trevor never wears a jet uni…

I think every Jets fan has their eyes on Jacksonville vs Chicago. If Jacksonville gets one more win then we’re home free and we can go back to rooting for the Jets to get a single win. But if we’re being honest, there is no chance Sam Darnold will play well enough against Bill Bellichick to actually win a game.

Like, I’m 27. I started following the Knicks in 2010. What’s the best prospect we’ve had in that time – KP? That turned to ash pretty quickly. Having a genuine top-tier prospect that doesn’t have glaring red flags would be such a joy.

Agree with Z-Man, i think Strat is talking about a player that wins by himself, like Lebron and Jordan, but those guys are so rare. Anthony Davis is a looser also, he only won with an actual leader (Lebron), same with Kawhi only with Duncan/Parker and Lowry. So to call a looser to a player that only wins with the appropriate surroundings is kind of a push. So you just have to surround the guy with the right kind of teammates, and having in those other guys a leader is mandatory. He had it twice, in OKC reached the NBA Finals and in Houston reached the WCF and lost to arguably the best team in many years if not ever. Man, i think i would like to have that kind of looser (although in Harden’s case i don’t like his style of play at all).

and also conveniently ignoring the fact that there a less regular season games but it is the same price as last year….cable companies are the scum of the earth.

nba sets this price

djphan: the main problem is his forays to the hoop…. he has issues getting to the rim… and a lot of folks are noticing his lack of burst… a guy with this physical profile should not have to rely on floaters and hook shots vs oral roberts… his 2p% is still above 50% but it’s very possible it tanks when facing actual tough defenses…. if he holds up against them then he will be the consensus #1 pick…. if it doesn’t it complicates things….

Yeah he doesn’t appear to be the overwhelming athlete that takes two steps in the half court and rises above everybody, but that type of athleticism should get you a high 2PT% and a high free throw rate, right? He’s doing pretty well in both regards through five games. He does have the length, strength, and athleticism to finish around the basket so I’m not worried about his finishing long term. When he gets into conference play we’ll see what’s real but the guy is legit. He looks to have the talent to make a team a playoff contender by himself.

Even Lebron never did it “all by himself.”

He’s gotten to the Finals all by himself but he had to win with Wade and Bosh, Love and Irving, and now AD.

Jordan had to win it with Pippen and Rodman/Grant.

The only people I can think who did it all by themselves in my lifetime were Olajuwon and Dirk but in both of those cases while there wasn’t a clear #2 and #3 star on their team to support them, their supporting cast was made up of a bunch of really really good just below all-star level players (Cassell, Horry, etc…Kidd, Marion, Chandler, etc).

But I think its worth asking why Harden hasn’t had more success in the playoffs as talented as he is. I mean, he’s only been to the conference finals once, right? Houston that year could have won it all if CP3 didn’t get hurt and they lost to an all-time great team. But outside of that year, he’s usually lost in the second round. And if other star players consistently want out or don’t want to go there to play with him, that to me says something about his attitude/character, etc…that keeps him from winning. Even the people who knock Lebron for always orchestrating a situation where he can team up with other stars to win it all are ignoring the fact that he is smart enough to do that and likeable/driven enough to have those players want to join him.

What do people think of this definition?
Net benefit of intentional tank in a given year = (prob that 1 or more potential franchise cornerstone player is eligible for draft X prob that said player(s) declares for draft X prob that cornerstone is properly valued by FO early enough in season to successfully tank X prob that non-cornerstone prospects in draft are properly valued below real cornerstone(s) by FO in May X prob team record qualifies for high pick X prob of ping pong ball that is favorable enough to select real cornerstone X prob that cornerstone stays healthy and realizes potential with franchise) – damage done to league, organization, players, fanbase by intentionally loosing a lot.

Sign me up for a draft pick that is better than Jason Tatum.

swiftandabundant: Even Lebron never did it “all by himself.”

More important than any teammate is a great POBO for a guy who isn’t drafted to New York or Los Angeles. Jerry Krause’s 1987 draft was the foundation that won Michael Jordan his first three championships. Harden is absolutely right to want to leave a jackass like Tillman Fertitta in the wind for interfering with the work Morey was doing.

Harden isn’t a Jordan/LeBron level player, but neither is Stephen Curry but nobody would dare call that guy a loser. The difference between Harden and Curry is Curry played for a team that drafted him, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green, had the sense to flip Monta Ellis for Andrew Bogut, make excellent free agency signings like David Lee and Andre Iguodala, and replace Mark Jackson with Steve Kerr. It comes down to what Krause said and got roasted for, and it’s that organizations win championships. Not [just] players.

I think Wade is in that bucket of guys who you could plausibly claim they “won it themselves.” He did have Shaq but Shaq was only on half steam and the rest of the team stunk. And yes, to say they did it themselves is silly. Dirk had Kidd and Terry and Chandler and Marion. Just in the sense of being the primary mover on a team without two true stars.

I like Cade. Looks like he can shoot. While he doesn’t look like an ultra elite guy to me (Lebron, AD, Zion) or really anywhere close, I’d be pretty excited to have him on the squad. I like prospects who can already shoot.

You know what I can’t believe I didn’t know? Magic went first in the draft and joined a 45 win team with late late prime Kareem. I never knew they picked up a first round pick in a trade which landed at #1. Pretty unreal that that kind of talent joined a winning team right off the bat. How many titles does he win if he is drafted first by New Orleans?

Wade’s 2006 was an incredible feat. Not as crazy as LeBron carrying CLE against the best team in 20 years, but truly an incredible thing. He could have retired in 2007 and the Heat should have hung his jersey from the rafters for their fan to admire.

What makes me don’t want the Knicks to go after Harden is this (not counting his style of play). We’re almost there in the young movement, just needing one more quality prospect, and this draft seems to be a lock to have several, so if there’s a year to tank this is the one.

this draft looks to be both really good at the top and pretty deep as well…. i’m pretty sure there will be a really good player available with the dallas pick… someone who might’ve had lottery potential if he was in this year’s draft by comparison and probably 10x the player that quickley is….

and if luck is on our side… we could be grabbing two very good starters that could set us up well into the next decade… this year is our shot and we cannot fuck it up…..

You know what I can’t believe I didn’t know? Magic went first in the draft and joined a 45 win team with late late prime Kareem. I never knew they picked up a first round pick in a trade which landed at #1. Pretty unreal that that kind of talent joined a winning team right off the bat. How many titles does he win if he is drafted first by New Orleans?

They got the Magic pick as part of the NBA’s silly free agent compensation formula from those days, because the Jazz signed Gail Goodrich. And then they had the #1 overall pick again three years later, when they took James Worthy! From the LA Times:

The Lakers ended up with the first overall pick in the 1982 NBA Draft as the result of a trade with Cleveland midway through the 1979-80 season, when the Lakers had sent Don Ford and a 1980 first-round pick (eventually Chad Kinch) to the Cavaliers for Butch Lee and their 1982 selection. Cleveland finished with the league’s worst record in 1981-82, giving the Lakers the top pick, which they used to select forward James Worthy, who had just led North Carolina to the 1982 NCAA title.

Oh right. I always forget about that OKC run to the finals.

Watching the Cade highlights does gives me the impression that he’d struggle against longer, more athletic defenders. But interested to see what happens. He reminds me a bit of KD, just calmly shooting over nearby defenders.

Yeah, that’s just bonkers to get two #1 picks like that and to have obvious all time greats waiting to be picked makes it even more unfair. Screw the Lakers. Although I guess they made a good deal with the Cavs.

Yeah, the Goodrich thing was beyond their control, but at least the Worthy thing was the result of an actual trade. As opposed to something like the Orlando Magic winning the lottery in back to back years when Shaq and Webber/Penny were available.

(If I can digress, my favorite thing about the 1993 draft was that, by all accounts, the Warriors, with the third pick, really wanted Shawn Bradley, and would have done a Penny-for-Bradley deal similar to the Penny-for-Webber trade they ultimately made, assuming Philadelphia would of course take Weber with the number two pick. But the Sixers really wanted Bradley, to the point where they allegedly reached out to Orlando and GSW management and threatened to blow up the whole thing by taking Hardaway second. At which point Don Nelson made peace with getting the draft’s other top big man. So the Sixers could have gotten Webber or Penny, but instead screwed themselves into by far the worst player of the three.)

Shawn Bradley is actually the kind of build Mobley has, although he is way shorter of course.

There should definitely be a podcast that’s just NBA alternate histories. That’s a wormhole I would totally go down. Maybe name it Ball in the High Castle.

Z-man:
CZ, The difference is that Kawhi and AD are dominant players on both ends. Harden is about as 1-way of a player as the league has ever seen.
…
I would put Harden at the top of the class of great one-way players…Melo, Amare, Nash, Iverson, Gervin, Dirk, etc. who were much more dependent on team dynamics and always at a disadvantage against a great 2-way player…

Oh, totally agree with you. I was talking about leadership, which i don’t think AD and Kawhi has it in them. So they will always need a leader on the team, and now we found 2 glaring holes in Harden’s game, he’s only a 1-way player and he’s no leader. But still, i would sign him if he was available at a reasonable price, and then would try to find another superstar and a leader.

By the way, of your list of 1-way players, Nash is my favorite and i think he’s a leader so he’s ahead of Harden, and also being a 1-way playmaker is the best option of a 1-way player because he makes everybody else around him better. Definetly my choice. And then Amare, he was 1-way for sure, but a leader also… i always think about the “what if” the knicks didn’t trade for Melo and let that team grow!

Anybody else remember when folks would talk shit about LeBron because he couldn’t win it all? 2011 was a damning indictment against a guy who didn’t play the right way.

I am sure that Cade Cunningham is the greatest, but man does Jalen Suggs look awesome. The body control and pace with which he plays is just awesome. I would be more than ecstatic if he ends up on our team. Measurements aren’t great but I’m sure he will figure it out.

we need to figure out how to get another pick in this draft.

Frank:
I am sure that Cade Cunningham is the greatest, but man does Jalen Suggs look awesome. The body control and pace with which he plays is just awesome. I would be more than ecstatic if he ends up on our team. Measurements aren’t great but I’m sure he will figure it out.

we need to figure out how to get another pick in this draft.

Suggs is a fun prospect but he’s squarely 3rd on my board, and in the 2nd tier of prospects, right now behind Cunningham and Mobley. His smarts, size, athleticism, and passing make him a great open court player and his tenacity on defense gives him a ton of potential to really lead a team in transition. My beef with him is he hasn’t shown any ability to create off the dribble one-on-one and that’s a huge part of being a successful NBA point guard. As of right now, Suggs is more Lonzo Ball than Ja Morant and that’s a big difference. He’s also shooting 67% from the line and 33% from deep, and that’s not something you can sweep under the rug. It’s really Mobley and Cunningham fighting for 1st place and then you have everybody else.

Also the Melo and Harden comparison is valid in the sense that Melo extracted top dollar regardless of the effect on team construction…especially in pushing for a trade rather than waiting until free agency (granted there was CBA uncertainty at that time, but if your primary goal is to win a ring, you roll the dice. Ewing also insisted on top-dollar regardless of how it affected team flexibility, although I hold him far less culpable than the bungling FO.

I am sure that Cade Cunningham is the greatest, but man does Jalen Suggs look awesome.

yes suggs has looked the most impressive out of everyone …. yes even cade…. the knock on him was that he isn’t a pure pg but he’s looked the part in a pro style offense at gonzaga…. he’s not quite like derrick rose but how he’s looked off the jump kind of reminds me of rose’s debut…..

it’s really tough to justify a pg over someone like cade if cade is the real deal but he’s making it interesting in the early going…..

In today’s HoopsRumors.com article “Longest-Tenured Players By NBA Team”, i found out that the Knicks longest tenured player is… (drum roll) …FRANK NTILIKINA! What about that?

cybersoze:
In today’s HoopsRumors.com article “Longest-Tenured Players By NBA Team”, i found out that the Knicks longest tenured player is… (drum roll) …FRANK NTILIKINA! What about that?

Well on the bright side, the odds of the string of players on rookie deals not being extended is looking like it is in jeopardy…

Seems likely that at least one of our young bucks (probably Mitch) will get an extension in the next couple years or so.

I’m not the biggest Ben Simmons fan in the world, but I don’t think I’d make him the key piece for Harden. Simmons is still young enough to improve his shot and become a more complete player that will give you many more years. Even if he doesn’t, he’s still a very good albeit flawed player.

The Jrue Holiday trade kind of set the bar for what Harden is worth (A LOT) and I’m not sure there are any teams that have what it will take to get that done that will be willing to pull the trigger.

If he forces his way to the Nets somehow and the Rockets get screwed, we may have to rethink the kinds of “contracts” owners should give out. Maybe teams should stop giving out any long term contracts. It’s makes no sense if they are forced to pay it if the guy sucks or gets hurt but the player can force himself out of it if he doesn’t like the team.

Deeefense:
I’m not the biggest Ben Simmons fan in the world, but I don’t think I’d make him the key piece for Harden.Simmons is still young enough to improve his shot and become a more complete player that will give you many more years. Even if he doesn’t, he’s still a very good albeit flawed player.

The Jrue Holiday trade kind of set the bar for what Harden is worth (A LOT) and I’m not sure there are any teams that have what it will take to get that done that will be willing to pull the trigger.

If he forces his way to the Nets somehow and the Rockets get screwed, we may have to rethink the kinds of “contracts” owners should give out.Maybe teams should stop giving out any long term contracts. It’s makes no sense if they are forced to pay it if the guy sucks or gets hurt but the player can force himself out of it if he doesn’t like the team.

The Jrue Holiday trade was dumb, but Milwaukee probably felt it had no choice but to do something to appease Giannis. I don’t think it set any bar…Harden is toxic in HOU and Jrue was not at all in NOP.

Deeefense: If he forces his way to the Nets somehow and the Rockets get screwed, we may have to rethink the kinds of “contracts” owners should give out. Maybe teams should stop giving out any long term contracts. It’s makes no sense if they are forced to pay it if the guy sucks or gets hurt but the player can force himself out of it if he doesn’t like the team.

The shorter the contract, the more ‘screwed’ are teams over players forcing their way out. Most players are only able to force a trade in the last year of the contract, because teams fear to lose them for nothing. Harden is such a big star, and the Houston situation is so peculiar, that he might achieve it with two years reamaining in his contract (and we will have to see if it happens).

Short contracts made the teams screwed in terms of retaining their stars. But of course, it also put the players in more financial risk in case of injury/etc. instead of the teams.

So, even without us taking on Harden, odds are decent Fertitta might dump the other overpayed veterans, no? There might be a chance for us to take on an asset for renting out capspace, especially if we wait until they get the Harden haul.

Nerlens Noel is playing so well that he has made Mitch expendable?

Can I get a source? Was that a joke?

Oh right. I always forget about that OKC run to the finals.

So it’s actually four visits to the Conference Finals for Harden, two with OKC and two with Houston (they also faced the Warriors in the Warriors’ first run to the title back in 2015).

I think maybe just go pure commission and pay for your championships on the back end?

Knicks twitter is pretty solid sometimes…

https://twitter.com/TheCohencidence/status/1336761807780933635

What you are saying is true. That’s why I’m reacting to it when it comes to Harden. If he can force himself out with this much time left on the contract, you’d have to be crazy to give out a long contract to a big star. It’s a lose-lose scenario. If he plays poorly or gets hurt I’m stuck paying, but if he’s unhappy he’ll force his way out early. I might as well give him 1 or 2 years and try to keep him happy so he’ll resign. If he’s happy he’ll come back. If he’s sucks or he gets hurt I only have to pay for 1-2 years instead of 4-5. If he’s unhappy he was going to force himself out either way.

I don’t mean to be patronizing but have you considered the possibility that 29 other teams might be willing to give the guy 4-5 years?

That was what the Twitter cartoon was about. My bet would be on Iggy going and I think my preference too.

Never been able to get excited by him. Hard to draw a hard distinction with Spellman but he can play center a bit.

The cartoon gave me a good chuckle.

I think we have to keep Spellman. He’s on the shorter side but can play C, which we’ll need if Mitch or Noel gets injured. Or if they just both foul out.

I used to think Spellman would get burn at PF once we trade Randle, but sounds like Knox might get it instead.

Still, just from the roster balance perspective Iggy would be the choice.

Edit: The Knicks choice. I’d just cut MKG.

Randle can play the 5

Between Iggy and MKG, I pick Iggy every time. He might not amount to much but MKG is a known quantity, and that known quantity is a castoff due for the isle of misfit toys/overrated oneway players.

Has Thibs said a word about Iggy?

Iggy’s problem is Knox. They’re more or less the same player but Knox was obviously picked way higher and is still 6 months younger than Iggy though I’m not sure how that impacts their thinking. It does seem like the Knicks genuinely value Knox- we know about the 3 on 3 but he still must look good in practice when guys aren’t leaning on him.

thenamestsam: I think Covid may give everybody on every roster a shot this year. I’m not holding my breath though.

I suspect this is why ATL went out and signed every player available during free agency.

I had posted this a few days back but nobody took the bait…but I think Covid is going to derail this season…Coach K mentioned in his press conf last night that they probably should stop playing hoops right now ….but the NCAA is just plowing through it…greed is a powerful thing…

I also saw on ESPN this morning…on the headline scroll at the bottom a few tidbits about the NBA policy…something like 12 days quarantine once you get a positive plus there is not a definitive rule on Postponing games..something like there are various factors that will go into the decision including how or why the person got infected…does that mean that if they deem a team did not adhere to protocols that they will just forfeit games and give the other team a W? I wonder what the minimum amount of guys is necessary to allow you to play…if you have 5 healthy dudes..than all systems go?

pepper:
I had posted this a few days back but nobody took the bait…but I think Covid is going to derail this season…Coach K mentioned in his press conf last night that they probably should stop playing hoops right now ….but the NCAA is just plowing through it…greed is a powerful thing…

I also saw on ESPN this morning…on the headline scroll at the bottom a few tidbits about the NBA policy…something like 12 days quarantine once you get a positive plus there is not a definitive rule on Postponing games..something like there are various factors that will go into the decision including how or why the person got infected…does that mean that if they deem a team did not adhere to protocols that they will just forfeit games and give the other team a W?I wonder what the minimum amount of guys is necessary to allow you to play…if you have 5 healthy dudes..than all systems go?

I agree with you. But they’re going to play at this point. My guess is when there’s enough vaccine available they spend a buttload on it for their players.

I’ve heard basically nothing about MKG or Iggy at this point. Someone asked Thibs about MKG and he gave a non-answer. I really don’t know what to expect. If MKG was going to make the rotation you’d think we’d hear more about him. I honestly have no idea what they’re planning for either one.

Vorkunov:

High praise for Knicks rookie Immauel Quickley from Tom Thibodeau:

“He’s got a great skill already. He can shoot the ball as well as anyone in the league. He’s a great shooter.”

I suspect this is why ATL went out and signed every player available during free agency.

Yes, but also this is the team that passed on Luka Doncic and picked Cam Reddish and De’Andre Hunter when they could have had Brandon Clarke. So let’s not accuse ATL of playing 5D chess quite yet. ; )

1. GSW- $147M

I think that if they come out showing a team that wins <50 games over a full 82 season, you see a major firesale. We're talking "a pair of future 2nds for Klay Thompson" kinda thing. Ain't no way Draymond is getting that max extension.

Keep in mind that they have $175M earmarked this year and $165M next year. $115M without Curry in 2022. There is no relief in sight.

Just listened to a couple of LaMelo interviews. He’s definitely his own guy. He’s cool. You feel me?

Dennis Smith Jr. is also in the best shape of his life.

In other words, relying on stuff like “Player X looks good” or “Player Y’s shot looks good” as anything but puffery at this point is, well, inadvisable.

***Anyone can win. Brian Scalabrine has a ring. ***

Eddy Curry has a ring!

Brian Cronin:
Dennis Smith Jr. is also in the best shape of his life.

In other words, relying on stuff like “Player X looks good” or “Player Y’s shot looks good” as anything but puffery at this point is, well, inadvisable.

Yup. Same for summer league performance. The first reliable info comes from preseason games, and even that can be misleading. This year, with short training camps, I expect that the preseason games will be somewhat more telling. There’s not much time to figure out rotations so I would think the coaches are going to play things closer to the vest than normal. This is even more true for us, because we are playing teams with similar issues. I would guess that the guys who aren’t in at all in the first and third quarters are probably on the outside of the rotation looking in, and that will become even more the case in games 2, 3, and 4. I mean opening day is in 2 weeks! Most of these guys are just getting acquainted!

Right, but what does that mean? I mean, is he going to say “Well, he hasn’t improved much since last year, so we don’t have much hope for him and are just going through the motions to try to build his trade value so we can get something back for his $5 million cap hit””?

Precisely. None of this is bad to hear, of course. Hopefully Smith is better. Hopefully Quickley is a great pick. Noel probably is good since he was good last year, but you know what I mean, you can’t make any sort of judgment either way based on coach’s saying nice things about their players. After all, Fizdale raved about Knox back in the day (among many other examples, but that’s just one that stood out to me when thinking of examples). Imagine saying, “Sounds like we did a great job in drafting Knox” at the time.

only in NY knick land does a journeyman center become Bill Russell and the rookie guard become the Microwave after two intrasquad scrimmages ….all is good now…

only in NY knick land does a journeyman center become Bill Russell and the rookie guard become the Microwave after two intrasquad scrimmages ….all is good now…

When I said “sounds like”, I meant literally that. I’m referring to what people say, and that doesn’t mean they are going to be proven right. Of course, coaches rarely speak badly of their players, and Fizdale in particular seemed to not be realistic in his comments. But Thibs clearly knows how to respond to questions without really answering, he’s not given to hyperbole, and he didn’t have to say Quickley shoots at an NBA level. So when he says it I believe him. Of course there are many other things that go into being a successful player than shooting, but just getting shooting at that position in the draft is a good result.

***Anyone can win. Brian Scalabrine has a ring. ***

Eddy Curry has a ring!

He just has a winner mentality’

Not like that selfish loser, Michael Jordan.

Alan – Great work on getting Bluey on to your list! That show is such a gem its unbelievable. I sincerely enjoy it more than my kids. Putting on The Great now.

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-lists/20-best-tv-shows-2020-1098246/

Maybe President Hillary would have done slightly better but we’d almost certainly still have well over 200,000 COVID deaths in the U.S. right now. And to achieve that slightly lower number of COVID deaths, President Hillary would probably have taken actions that led to more destroyed businesses, ruined futures, and lives lost to suicide, drug abuse, and long term mental and physical health problems. How many people do you think are ultimately going to die because they’ve avoided going to the doctor the last nine months? How many cancers and other diseases could have been caught earlier and cured?

those countries are also a lot older than the US and for some had earlier outbreaks…. that we are worse off than them even with inherent demographic advantages… not even acccounting that we are the richest and supposedly the most advanced country in the world… is reflective of our poor response at the onset and our continued bungling…..

you could absolutely argue that there are significant lives that could have been saved…. and the only reason that it’s not worse is because of our governors in the most populous states…..

let’s not try to rewrite history… we can look at this a number of ways and none of it makes the us look good at all…..

…the U.S. COVID death rate per 100,000 people is 88. France’s death rate is 84 per 100,000. The United Kingdom’s death rate is 94 per 100,000. The death rates in Italy and Spain are both over 100 per 100,000. Was Donald Trump also the President of France, the UK, Italy, and Spain for the past year?

Now do deaths as a percentage of population. CFR is a near meaningless statistic in a comparison context–when you have more spread in general more young people will get the disease, populations of countries are of varying ages, countries have different medical resources, etc.

I mean seriously dude, if a country the same size as the US limited its case count to 100,000, and 88 of those people died, would you say the US and that country were equally successful?

This CFR shtick is so tired and dumb. Letting the virus run absolutely rampant and cause a crazy total number of deaths, independent of CFR, is the massive failure here.

And that quote should be attributed to MBunge (obviously) not djphan- Sorry!

U.S. Breaks Daily Record for Virus Deaths 2 Weeks in a Row

More than 3,000 new fatalities were reported on Wednesday as a brutal surge gathered across the country.

Last week’s record — 2,760 deaths reported in a single day — was the first time since April that so many deaths had been reported.

Damn that reckless, feckless President Hillary. What was she thinking.

MBunge, the US has one of the highest Covid infection rate in the world, by the link you cited. The countries that also have high infection rates are more densely populated than the US. If you want to see the the effect of population density look at a map of Covid incidence by county such as the one published in the NY Times. Upstate NY counties have much less Covid than downstate despite the same state government, which shows the difference population density makes. Then if you look at Western states like the Dakotas where state government refused to fight the pandemic and insisted that people should do business as usual, the numbers are much worse despite similar population densities to upstate NY. You can claim that this would have happened anyway without Trump, but I believe that a different attitude towards masks would have made a big difference in those areas.

Well, it’s also the case that less than half of players selected #20-30 make a significant mark in the NBA. According to a study I looked at, the average games played is something in low-mid 200’s, something like 3 seasons. So I would say that you aim for a player that is worthy of sticking around, and being able to shoot the lights out is maybe the best quality to have in that regard. But clearly Quickley has qualities to be more than that, starting with decent defensive aptitude for his size.

There’s definitely a big drop-off around #20. Just like there’s a big drop-off after #5 (which is why top five is often the goal losing teams should shoot for in most drafts). And it’s also fair to note that getting good shooters is important. I know I sure as heck wanted the Knicks to take a good-shooting prospect this year with their lottery pick. It’s just also true that “can shoot well from three” is not something that gives any sort of support to the idea that a player was chosen well at the #25 spot if they have that ability. As you note, he may have other skills and if so, that’s great. That’s a lot different than “just getting shooting at that position in the draft is a good result.”

Maybe I shouldn’t have used the words “just getting shooting at that position in the draft is a good result.” I know you need other skills besides that, like getting open against NBA defense, having somewhat passable defense or whatever. I’m assuming he can at least get open, or Thibs wouldn’t have said what he did. I don’t know how he is at other stuff. But I still think getting an ZnBA ready skill at number 25 is a decent result since most picks there don’t go anywhere. Novak and Kornet aren’t counter examples because they were great pickups for where they were drafted. They would have been good pickups at number 25 too.

Korver yes. Novak, eh.

All right fine, I will do it.

re: your death rate per 100K thing — this statistic will be greatly skewed by the timing of the pandemic in that particular country. Those countries that were hit hard in the first 4-5 months of 2020 (before anyone had any idea how it was spread, how early to intubate, whether to anticoagulate, how to mitigate spread with masks and other strategies etc) are disproportionately going to have a much worse “per-100K” number if you look at the pandemic in its entirety. The most damning thing about the US is if you look at what happened in the mid-point — basically June until November when we understood the virus much better, the weather was good, and you had the ability to get that number way down. Go search for “death rate coronavirus by country” and you’ll see that in Italy, for nearly 4 months they had ~20 or fewer deaths per day. France had more but still in double digits for most of that time. Italy and France both have around 60-70 million population so the US has 5x their population. However, between June and November, our daily death rate was still about 1000/day ie. roughly 5-10x the death rate of Italy/France. And deaths in Dec/Jan/Feb are going to be absolutely horrific despite the vaccine being available hopefully soon to the highest risk people, since deaths lag cases by 4-6 weeks as it filters from dumbos that have no civic responsibility to their parents and grandparents. We are easily going to be at 3000-5000 deaths PER DAY until February. It’s unthinkable. And that’s even with better understanding of therapies.

I don’t really blame Trump that much for the first wave – Jan->May/June – the response was incompetent but you could make the argument that everything was happening too fast and it’s a hard decision to shut the country down preemptively. Everything from then until now is on his head, as well as his sycophants in the republican party and Fox News/Newsmax/OANN.

James Harden is open to being traded to Milwaukee and Miami now, according to Shams. The Heat should be able to make that happen considering how highly thought of a guy like Tyler Herro is.

Just to elaborate on Novak, he topped out at 1600 minutes in a season and had two others where he barely cracked 1000 minutes. If you divide his 5657 total minutes by 36, you get 157 games. So he would have been a below-average player for a #25 pick.

I know we loved us some Novakaine, but he was as much of a one-trick pony as the league has ever seen. So yeah, just shooting is not enough at that spot. But if Quickley’s shooting translates, he will be a much better player than Novak, likely a sure perennial NBA rotation player based on his other qualities.

DS:
JJ Barea waived.Sadly, at 36, I think he would be more ready than any of the Knicks’ current options to be starting point guard (granted: I am biased because he and I were at Northeastern at the same time).As much as I think development is the top priority, he could help add 20 minutes per game of more coherent basketball.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bareajo01.html

I’ve always had a soft spot for JJ but this is a classic case of the idea that you have to assume his current team knows him better than anyone else. Carlisle is basically the JJ Barea whisperer as far as I’m concerned; he always had a knack for getting the most of him. If the Mavs think he’s done he’s probably done.

This is just my opinion About the virus and the US. If we have 300K dead, Trump is responsible for more than half those deaths. He is a mass murderer and his fate should be the same as the fate of Saddam Hussein. Trump is far worse. Saddam grew up in poverty and ignorant. I’m a centrist who typically votes for a candidate not a party. This is not a point you can argue with me on. I lose all respect for anyone that supports him. Keep politics out of here because it is infuriating. I come here to get away from all that. Talk hoops, guitars, existentialism, anything else.

C’mon Frank… those people were going to die no matter what.

People can’t stop death! That’s as crazy as saying humans can change the weather… Or that a few select parts of the Bible shouldn’t be taken very literally!

The Skal Labissière Era begins!

vincoug: Honest question, who the hell would trade anything for Klay Thompson after he just missed 2 full seasons to a torn ACL and a torn Achilles? And his contract has 3 more seasons at $40M/year after this one?

The Milwaukee Bucks, if Giannis re-signs, and the Houston Rockets (depending on what John Wall looks like) would probably bite. I do get the feeling that:

1) People are vastly underrating how good Stephen Curry is, and the narrative is setting itself up for Steph Curry to win league MVP honors.

2) The Warriors may just value letting the Splash Brothers retire together in the way LAL, San Antonio, and Dallas did with their first ballot hall of fame talent.

I don’t think the Golden State Warriors break up the Splash Brothers. That would be crazy.

thenamestsam: I also think it might be clever to sell high on Herro right now; he definitely has promise but the hype train got a little out of control for him I think.

The crazy thing is that it seems Fertitta is an ogre who will not move off of receiving an All Star plus the Jrue Holiday pick package. If Miami wants James Harden they’ll likely have to give up Bam, Herro, and two firsts. In other words, until that situation in Houston gets desperate we will not see any serious discussions for James Harden. The Rockets can tell James Harden they’re working towards a trade for him, but if you’re telling Brooklyn you want Kyrie Irving, Philly you want Ben Simmons, and Miami you want Bam then you’re not actually trying to trade the guy.

This debate on the dealth/100k rate really points to a whole other issue: alternate realities. Different segments of the population just have different sets of facts. You watch OAN/FOXNews and you hear, “99.8% of people do FINE after COVID,” or you hear CNN say “Trump mismanaged COVID AGAIN today and people are DYING” and most people do not know what to believe and go with their immediate community’s beliefs. Twitter/Facebook and their echo chambering is mostly to blame, I think, far more than cable news. Either way, MBunge, just read what Frank and KFINJ wrote, they speak far better than me, but suffice it to say, things should have been handled a lot better, and it’s pretty obvious that it affected people’s lives. Or else, what does it matter how things are handled at all, then? (It didn’t help the Dems that they gave a free pass to protests and themselves, I mean how hard is it to just say “We’re with you in protest, but please distance and mask” without doing much different- this really, really hurt their credibility with the uneducated)

I’ve never seen Quickley play, but I’ve been reading everything about his work ethic, improvement at Kentucky, his play making being better than it looks statistically and the success he had there after not even starting at the beginning of the season. Now we are getting high praise from Thibs. Most people were upset we moved up to get him when he might have still been there later. I’m wondering why he didn’t go a lot higher. We may have stolen a very good player.

The only thing I saw I didn’t like was that his shot starts kind of low near his waste area and I’m wondering if that will be an issue at the NBA level, but that’s something a scout would be more likely to answer.

I mean the CFR thing is just so incredibly stupid I can’t believe MAGA world has latched onto it though I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

People aren’t criticizing Trump by saying he let too many people who caught COVID die. Now, to the extent Trump affected the death rate at all there is reason to believe he made it worse by slangin’ hydroxychloroquine and other garbage. It should be noted even our death rate is pitiful compared to the rest of the world, but I digress.

The obvious and accurate criticism is he let too many people catch COVID, period, and because 88/100K is a high death rate in general, far more people died than necessary. We’d have an awful deaths as a percentage of population figure even if our death rate was much lower! Argh you people and your fantasy worlds are infuriating.

The long term effects are pretty frightening.

I don’t expect this to be the starting line-up but I REALLY want to see an all kids line up of:

Quickley
Frank
RJ
Toppin
Mitch

I mean the CFR thing is just so incredibly stupid I can’t believe MAGA world has latched onto it though I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

CFR is without question a critical piece of information for determining how dangerous a disease is.

But you have to have the both the numerator and denominator correct. With Covid, there are a LOT of asymptomatic cases, very mild cases, and cases with symptoms that go undiagnosed and unrecorded. For a long time we didn’t have the testing capacity to know if people had Covid (which back in the first phase was probably millions of people in the northeast). Fortunately competent people can use screening and other techniques to estimate the true infection rate in the population. For example, I live in Queens NY. It is estimated that in NYC, Long island, and Westchester around 30% of the people have already been infected. Millions of them simply don’t know it because they never had symptoms, the symptoms were so mild they thought they had a common cold, or they and their doctor suspected they had it but they were never tested because they were saving the limited testing for more serious cases. Then they recovered and never knew.

NY has a high death rate because of how we handled nursing homes, assisted living, and hospice patients and because we got hit early on before the doctors started figuring out how to treat it better.

Plus this the US. It’s the land of the fast food junkie and sugar addict. We have no shortage of obese people with diabetes, heart disease, and other serious health issues.

swiftandabundant: Do you want 15 percent diminished breathing capacity for the rest of your life? Cause I don’t.

I’m surprised this isn’t talked about more, especially in the context of sports. We’ll probably hear stories throughout the next decade on how Covid ruined players careers because the NFL/NBA/NCAA was reckless.

As someone who has had respiratory issues the last few years, breathing affects absolutely everything you do: thinking, exercise, sleep, etc. It all gets fucked up when you can’t breathe.

Deefense, I disagree that you can’t trust mainstream media at all.

I can’t trust anyone I know is politically motivated or significantly biased (aware of it or not). I don’t want to try to figure out what is true and what is not and what is spun and what is not. When I wanted to know how risky the disease was I went to to the smartest math/disease guys I could find and the CDC site and looked at the data myself. When they were from all over the political spectrum and agreeing, I was fairly confident I had the right answers.

I have “stupid fatigue” at this point. I can’t argue with stupid anymore, I can’t do battle with the willfully ignorant. The most I can do is tell them that they’re fucking idiots, then move on with my day.

The amount of idiotic shit I see so many people say on a daily basis is completely soul-crushing. All the mediocre dumbshits I went to high school with think Trump totes won the election, that there is clear evidence of massive voter fraud, that Covid is a hoax, that everything should be fully open and that anything that makes Donald Trump look bad is part of a giant global conspiracy.

This isn’t a few wingnuts I’m talking about, this is mainstream opinion among a lot of people who were fairly “normal” conservatives just a few years ago. I can’t deal anymore. Fuck these people. I don’t engage with them anymore on any level other than to let them know I think they’re dumber than shit and that I look down on them with complete contempt.

you either die or you are completely and utterly fine

This is the biggest rubbish of the entire right’s view on COVID. If this was the flu, where more young people died, and less older people died, and that was the entire story, fine. But the sheer amount of various degrees of multiorgan damage is astounding. I’ve had people in my specialty, which usually has nothing to do with respiratory disease, end up with severe and debilitating permanent loss of function in their 30s. Not so many, but enough to write a case series report in May in a big journal that I have no right publishing at in general. COVID is scary to people because it should be. Trump and the right’s media outlets have been not only contributing to spread by downplaying spread, and death, but also morbidity; and I think, if people really knew the amount of vascular and hypercoagulability related disease related to COVID, they’d shit their pants right before putting on an N95.

2) The Warriors may just value letting the Splash Brothers retire together in the way LAL, San Antonio, and Dallas did with their first ballot hall of fame talent.

I think the major difference is that Manu and Duncan were making pennies in their final season (Manu got a big frontloaded contract in 2017, and made only $2.5M in his final two years) and Steph and Klay will have huge contracts until they’re geriatric.

What kind of discount do we expect Curry to take in his final years? Right now, he’s on the cusp of age 33, making:

2020-21 $43M
2021-22 $45.7M

An extension signed before Dec. 21 would be ages 35-37 at:

$48M
$52M
$55.8M

If he waits until next summer, he can go for four years and $220M for an AAV of $55M. For comparison, Duncan made $55M in his final five seasons combined (excluding his stretched final $5M). Manu made less than that over his final seven seasons.

It’s certainly possible that GSW will hand out the nostalgic contracts to them, but paying $90-100M for a pair of guards in their late 30s is a recipe for a Garnett/Pierce Nets situation. Needless to say it would not go well to pay $200M in salary and tax for a team that wins 35 games.

This is the biggest rubbish of the entire right’s view on COVID. If this was the flu, where more young people died, and less older people died, and that was the entire story, fine. But the sheer amount of various degrees of multiorgan damage is astounding. I’ve had people in my specialty, which usually has nothing to do with respiratory disease, end up with severe and debilitating permanent loss of function in their 30s. Not so many, but enough to write a case series report in May in a big journal that I have no right publishing at in general. COVID is scary to people because it should be. Trump and the right’s media outlets have been not only contributing to spread by downplaying spread, and death, but also morbidity; and I think, if people really knew the amount of vascular and hypercoagulability related disease related to COVID, they’d shit their pants right before putting on an N95.

Thank you for this post.

The amount of idiotic shit I see so many people say on a daily basis is completely soul-crushing. All the mediocre dumbshits I went to high school with think Trump totes won the election, that there is clear evidence of massive voter fraud, that Covid is a hoax, that everything should be fully open and that anything that makes Donald Trump look bad is part of a giant global conspiracy.

I will pay you $20 to delete your Facebook account

It’s not like media outlets are saying “X% of people will have long-term consequences,” they are just trying to let people know that the right’s “if you’re not old, you’ll be fine” stance is utter garbage.

It is fine to inform people that some victims are experiencing longer term loss of smell and taste (so far) and others that recovered from serious cases have suffered lung or heart damage. That’s not the same same as making it seem like it’s a high percentage of cases. It’s not. A small percentage wind up in the hospital and those are typically the old and sick people we should be prioritizing much more. Obviously there are exceptions. I lost a young friend to flu a couple of years ago. TB is still floating around doing all sorts of damage. If you are going to report something, give me accurate data on how many and what percentage or people just freak out.

I would trade Kyrie for Harden immediately if I were the Nets. That would be an absolute swindle

Man, the Mets are linked to just about every big name free agent. Seems like they’re going to pass on Realmuto and sign James McCann, and that they’re seriously interested in Springer, Trevor Bauer and Liam Hendricks.

They might not sign every one of those guys but they seem serious about winning. I’ve always believed that their core of young guys is very strong and that they’re in position to make a win-now push.

Cohen is rich enough that the Mets could make a mistake or two in free agency and just eat the sunk cost. Man is this awesome.

The most disgraceful thing about strat is he comes here and assumes that everyone gets all of their info from the news and accepts it on face value w/o a modicum of skepticism or scholarly pursuit. It’s insulting enough when it comes from the OAN crowd…but strat is smart and educated enough to know that this crowd is way past that.

Z-man, that’s just the brain damage talking. Remember, you and I and every person in the country other than strat have mainstream-media-induced brain damage.

Left turn, here: Am I the only one here who thinks that The Queen’s Gambit is hokey, maudlin garbage? I’m through episode 4 and trying to figure out how the hell this show has become enough of a cultural phenomenon that a dozen people have recommended it to me. And it’s not just the very, very silly chess scenes. It’s the whole enchilada — the threadbare script, the horrific casting, the overwrought set design and cinematography, the inexplicable blocking decisions, the throw-shit-at-the-wall themes of sexism and racism — save Anja Taylor-Joy doing her best to hold the thing together. I can’t count how many times I cringed during the Mexico City episode.

@wojespn
All-Star forward Paul George has signed a maximum contract extension with the Los Angeles Clippers that’ll guarantee him as much as $226 million over the next five years, his agent Aaron Mintz of @CAA_Basketball tells ESPN.

Clippers basically had no choice on this, given how much they gave up to acquire George and Kawhi. Now I wonder if Kawhi is also about to extend, or if he’s going to maintain his leverage.

Either way, the whole “2021 free agency” plan may be less exciting than anticipated.

I don’t think I get your point. If you redrafted the 2003 draft with what we know now is there any way Korver doesn’t go top 10? And doesn’t he have an argument for top 5

Draymond Green’s success hasn’t changed the draft outlook for undersized big men. For every Korver, there’s at least two guys who never even made it into the NBA (or an Andy Rautins, who got a cup of coffee). That’s why guys known for just three point shooting still get drafted well into the second round. Sometimes they pay off, but often, they do not. That’s why Duncan Robinson wasn’t even drafted, more than a decade after Korver established himself.

For instance, looking at last year’s top ten in the NBA in three-point shooting percentage, you can see it at work:

1. George Hill • MIL .460 (26)
2. J.J. Redick • NOP .453 (11)
3. Seth Curry • DAL .452 (undrafted)
4. Duncan Robinson • MIA .446 (undrafted)
5. Doug McDermott • IND .435 (11)
6. Davis Bertans • WAS .424 (42)
7. Joe Harris • BRK .424 (33)
8. Nemanja Bjelica • SAC .419 (35)
9. Gary Trent • POR .418 (37)
10. Kyle Korver • MIL .418 (51)

If you stretch it to the top 20, you add about half second rounders, half lottery picks (including a #1 pick) and another undrafted guy (Justin Holiday).

JK47:
Man, the Mets are linked to just about every big name free agent. Seems like they’re going to pass on Realmuto and sign James McCann, and that they’re seriously interested in Springer, Trevor Bauer and Liam Hendricks.

They might not sign every one of those guys but they seem serious about winning. I’ve always believed that their core of young guys is very strong and that they’re in position to make a win-now push.

Cohen is rich enough that the Mets could make a mistake or two in free agency and just eat the sunk cost. Man is this awesome.

I’m hoping that Cohen supposedly saying that he will be disappointed if the Mets do not win the WS in “three to five years” shows that he is willing to be at least a bit patient. As Alderson has noted, the Mets are very thin at the AA and AAA levels in prospects at this time (thanks, BVW), so need to rebuild the farm system.

I think if the Mets were going to go “all in” that they’d be harder for Realmuto, since he checks so many boxes. With Cano’s 2021 salary to play, with, I’d think they could heavily frontload a deal for Realmuto. Of course, maybe they have determined that he just doesn’t want to come to NY.

McCann seems more like a “hold the fort” guy. I think the Mets are trying to compete, but also recognize that the Braves and Dodgers are going to be very to surpass in the next couple of years.

The Mets’ top prospect is a catcher, and he’s still somewhat far away but would probably be ready by the time McCann’s contract ends. So that’s why I think they’re out on Realmuto.

Steve Ballmer. . .u crazy for this one man

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
Left turn, here: Am I the only one here who thinks that The Queen’s Gambit is hokey, maudlin garbage? I’m through episode 4 and trying to figure out how the hell this show has become enough of a cultural phenomenon that a dozen people have recommended it to me. And it’s not just the very, very silly chess scenes. It’s the whole enchilada — the threadbare script, the horrific casting, the overwrought set design and cinematography, the inexplicable blocking decisions, the throw-shit-at-the-wall themes of sexism and racism — save Anja Taylor-Joy doing her best to hold the thing together. I can’t count how many times I cringed during the Mexico City episode.

My wife and I just finished episode 3 yesterday and while I can’t say I’m disliking it as much as it sounds like you are, we were just saying that it feels pretty hollow by the standards of “peak TV”. It comes across to me like they started off with a traditional kids movie about an orphan who’s amazing at Chess, but then tacked on a bunch of “serious” trappings to try to make it into an “important” show. The main appeal so far seems to be pumping your fist every time she beats another meany and drops a little dig at them.

The other thing I’ll say about Queen’s Gambit is that the people I’ve seen post about it on social media are mostly women and some of them seem more interested in chess now. One woman I know is currently reading one of Pandolfini’s beginner books and she had never previously played or been interested in chess. In general, online chess has seen a pretty big boost too.

I’m in support of literally anything that gets more women involved in chess, so if nothing else I support Queen’s Gambit on those grounds.

What I really mourn is the second season that certainly shouldn’t be made, but almost inevitably will be made. Hopefully, Netflix learned their lesson with The End of the F***ing World, because they tried to shoehorn in a second season and ruined a perfect 1st season. I watched 30 seconds of season 2 before turning it off. I will NEVER watch season 2 of that show.

Any basis for the claim that the long-term effects are “wildly overstated?”

I have not seen that data. I would love to see it myself. If you find it, please post it. What I know is that I’ve seen news shows and read articles that were clearly designed to scare the shit out of people. That’s what I object to.

I think we can safely assume the serious long term effect cases (lung, heart and other damaged organs) are primarily from among those that were hospitalized. I have seen the real true Case Hospitalization Rate somewhere but I don’t remember the number. It wasn’t big percentage. It’s probably available at the CDC.

I would start with that true case hospitalization rate. From there we know “x%” die. We also know many come out fine. My friend’s mother who is 95 just got out of the hospital this week. She’s fine. Her entire bridge club got sick (all in their 80s and 90s) and they are all fine. They were nuts to get together like that, but that’s another story. I know quite a few people that suffered from loss of smell and taste that lasted a month or so, but all eventually got it back.

So I’d suspect a small percentage of hospitalization cases have temporary or permanent damage, but I have no idea what it is. I just know it’s not a huge number. That’s where IMO we’ve been wildly inadequate in protecting people. We know where the highest risks are.

Deeefense: I have not seen thatdata. I would love to see it myself.If you find it,please post it.What I know is that I’ve seen news shows and read articles that were clearly designed to scare the shit out of people.That’s what I object to.

I think we can safely assume the serious long term effect cases (lung, heart and other damaged organs) are primarily from among those that were hospitalized.I have seen the real true Case Hospitalization Rate somewhere but I don’t remember the number. It wasn’t big percentage. It’s probably available at the CDC.

I would start with that true case hospitalization rate.From there we know “x%” die.We also know many come out fine.My friend’s mother who is 95 just got out of the hospital this week.She’s fine. Her entire bridge club got sick (all in their 80s and 90s) and they are all fine. They were nuts to get together like that, but that’s another story. I know quite a few people that suffered from loss of smell and taste that lasted a month or so, but all eventually got it back.

So I’d suspect a small percentage of hospitalization cases have temporary or permanent damage, but I have no idea what it is.I just know it’s not a huge number.That’s where IMO we’ve been wildly inadequate in protecting people.We know where the highest risks are.

I think the other piece you’re missing is that the base infection rate for Covid is quite high. Even if the death rate for young people is really low, by the end of the year the absolute numbers of deaths for people 25-45 will end up being quite high.

Early Bird: I think the other piece you’re missing is that the base infection rate for Covid is quite high. Even if the death rate for young people is really low, by the end of the year the absolute numbers of deaths for people 25-45 will end up being quite high.

I agree its a deadly disease that it’s going to kill a lot of people including many that are young. Many other infectious and non infectious diseases kill a lot of young people. The “rates” are a way of keeping it in perspective relative to other risks and identifying where the risks are highest so we eventually put our energy into the right places.

As an aside, are all these shows getting filmed during COVID or was there some explosion of streaming show production last year, because this year the sheer volume of watchable TV is crazy.. If during COVID, I wonder how they’re doing production- testing and bubble?

because the list of exclusive 3pt shooters having long careers is exceedingly short….. these guys are essentially field goal kickers…. and yes using a high pick on a field goal kicker is pretty bad….

That’s a great comparison.

Deeefense: I agree its a deadly disease that it’s going to kill a lot of people including many that are young. Many other infectious and non infectious diseases kill a lot of young people. The “rates” are a way of keeping it in perspective relative to other risks and identifying where the risks are highest so we eventually put our energy into the right places.

And my point is that we’re seeing death totals for young people who have Covid-19 in numbers significantly higher than other diseases, even for young people.

Early Bird: And my point is that we’re seeing death totals for young people who have Covid-19 in numbers significantly higher than other diseases, even for young people.

I understand. It’s an infectious disease that spreads easily.

Just because I am trying to tone down the fear doesn’t mean I am advocating we all go to MSG without masks and yell and scream in each other’s faces about how Frank sucks. 🙂 I am simply saying the data is not nearly as bad as the early perceptions. The epidemiologists that were getting killed by the media and majority of healthcare professionals at the start of the pandemic for playing down CFR are turning out to have been right. That’s not the same as saying everyone go out and party!

Anyways, in Knicks related news Thibs says he hasn’t settled on a starting lineup or rotation for tomorrow.

Unsurprising, but still. Says he doesn’t plan on settling on a rotation until a few games into regular season. Says some guys are still behind in conditioning.

Thibs says that Quickley, Obi, Randle, & Knox are the ones who came into camp in the best shape.